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many-gay-magpies · 11 days ago

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I just finished watching The Old Guard (banger movie by the way, absolutely recommend if anyone’s been debating it), so naturally my brain went the route of Old Guard DBDA au. I don’t know any details; all I can think of so far is that Charles and Edwin are a pair of immortals that have been at it for a while together, and the timeline of the story starts with the appearance of a new immortal: Crystal. As for what’s beyond that, idk—are there other people on Charles’s and Edwin’s immortal team? Or are they just a duo? Idk if the immortality loss thing happens to either of them, I’m leaning towards no if it’s just the two of them… but like. It would fit SO well.

I’m already kind of envisioning that it’s just been Edwin and Charles, doing good and helping people from the shadows for decades (or maybe even centuries if we stretch out the timeline a bit); not a direct role-for-role cast replacement of the Old Guard, but more of an insertion into the story structure/world. Like, Edwin as the older of the two, having become immortal a while before Charles and almost immediately getting trapped and spending a canon-adjacent length of time being tortured for his abilities—then escaping a short while before Charles appears and he starts having dreams about him. Their deaths could even be similar to canon: Edwin gets sacrificed (literal sacrifice rather than a prank this time) or maybe even put to death for suspected homosexuality and comes back; Charles dies of hypothermia and internal bleeding after his “friends” turn on him, but he doesn’t STAY dead. Edwin has dreams of cold, and pain—utter impenetrable cold—and of an attic, and a lake, and he sees Charles’s face—he decides he has to find him.

Then Crystal comes around, and maybe she has a similar background to canon—maybe even with the memory loss? Like, her toxic ex-boyfriend kills her and she comes back without a bunch of her memories—some kind of complication with the process—and she gets them back gradually over the course of the story (probably as multiple deaths clear things up/shift things back to normal). When Charles and Edwin find her, there’s a lot of complicated emotions, stemming from—well, both of them wondering why NOW, why another one after probable centuries of it just being them, but where Edwin is resistant and standoffish (he doesnt trust new people this close, why did it have to change, their life was FINE as it was), Charles is excited to have a new person around!! Someone they won’t lose!! Someone like them!! And meanwhile Crystal is just,, fucking REELING from this and also maybe being stalked by her crazy power-hungry toxic ex-boyfriend who was maaaaybe in the government the whole time and dating her because her parents had whopping political status. It’s a lot.

Shit, maybe Esther could even be another immortal—one Edwin and Charles don’t know about; one that’s removed from the dream-connection somehow, or one that they haven’t been able to pin down/get clear enough memories from to realize it’s a whole other person and not just, like, them having weird dreams and shit. And maybe Esther LOSING her immortality correlates with Crystal gaining hers, and Esther tries to figure out a way to steal the boys’ immortality somehow to get hers back… or maybe she’s NOT an immortal, but more of a Merrick-type character that finds out about the immortals and wants to take their power for herself? Idk.

Last thing I’ve been thinking about is, I want Niko to be an immortal too… but is she an immortal from the start? Probably not. Maybe she’s a normal mortal girl they meet while dealing with Esther and all get really attached to, who then breaks everyone’s hearts by dying when she tries to help Crystal get the boys back from Esther, providing Crystal’s first big lesson about the futility of relationships with normal human beings (while still being worth the pain for the value of the love while its there)… UNTIL she comes to in her grave in Japan weeks or months later, and the inside of a coffin shows up in all of their dreams. Or something.

I am hereby inviting anyone who wishes to participate in this idea with me to do so, in any way you please

#add-on ideas or completely different interpretations of what a dbda/old guard crossover/AU could look like. all is welcome #magpie thoughts #dbda #dead boy detectives #the old guard #is the cat king an immortal to? but one that’s not on The Team because he likes his solo life just fine and also Charles hates his guts #because he hits on Edwin every time they meet up?#the possibilities are endless #payneland #Edwin Payne #crystal palace #god im just thinking about how PERFECTLY Edwin’s torture fits into this scenario… he gets captured and killed over and over and OVER again #for more years than he can count… pushed further and further; torn up in more and more horrible gruesome ways every time; because every time #he heals and comes back; good as new… even if it takes a week for his body to regenerate from being chewed to pieces… he comes back…#until he learns to fight his way out. until he maps the entire facility they keep him in—its changed over the years; gotten more advanced.#moved location—and forgets more ways of killing his captors than most soldiers ever learn. and he makes it out #then a few years later. he isnt alone anymore #and Charles… Charles who is glad he didn’t die but he still lost his chance at LIFE… he is glad he left his house with all his dad’s anger #but he never got to GROW UP… never got to make a family (better than the one that made him) or get a job or graduate college (im mentally #aging them up a bit in my head. just because) or any of the things he’d planned to do… and he loves Edwin SO MUCH and wouldn’t trade this #for ANYTHING now that he has it. but he never got his mom out. she turned away from him when she was on her deathbed because he was the same #age he’d been when he left forty years ago and she didn’t believe it was him. years that he would have been able to have going back home for #family dinners—or having his mom come to him; or going wherever she’d gone if she got away from his dad—lost to checking in on them through #papers and records and windows and down the booth at a restaurant with a mask on his face so they couldn’t tell it was him. things edwin #doesnt quite understand; things he doesn’t get because he doesnt even remember his parents or family.#he’s always seemed so much happier without them—like he didn’t even need those memories—and Charles tried to do the same.#and if we want to bump up the ‘’time goes on’’ angst. throw a little sister into the mix. make him have a younger sister named Clementine #who he has to watch grow up from a distance. who he visits on HER deathbed (maybe instead of his mom) and who pushes him away. or who DOESNT #push him away but its still heartbreaking because the last time he saw her she was a teenager or a little kid and now she’s an old woman. he #never got to watch her grow up and now he’s losing her. and he’s stuck behind.

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rowyndodendron · 19 days ago

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IPHIGENEIA'S SACRIFCE, AKA: "THAT'S NOT WHAT FUCKING HAPPENED"

Every time someone describes/reduces Agamemnon’s choice to sacrifice Iphigenia as "he killed his daughter to go to war" or "he killed his daughter for favourable winds to get to Troy faster" I lose 10 years off my life. Which means by this point I died approximately 9,000 years ago.

Because y'all...y'all do understand that was NOT the choice, right? Like. It was not "Iphigenia lives, no war" vs "Iphigenia dies, yes war!" That was NOT the choice. That was NEVER the choice. It was NEVER that simple. It was NEVER that easy. IT WAS NEVER ACTUALLY THAT CHOICE AT ALL. The choice is not Iphigenia or war. The choice is not even whether Iphigenia lives or dies. The only actual choice Agamemnon gets to make, realistically speaking, is HOW Iphigenia dies.

ARTEMIS IS A GOD!!!

First of all: Artemis is a GOD. Artemis, the god, DEMANDED Agamemnon sacrifice his daughter to appease her/because she was pissed at him. Do you REALLY think, ignoring the gathered army for a moment (I'll get there), but just thinking purely from an Agamemnon-Artemis standpoint for a moment she would have let him just say no?

Hypothetically, if Agamemnon had said, "eh, nah, don't really fancy killing my own kid, actually, I'll just go home and forget about this war business" do you HONESTLY believe that Artemis would've been like "yeah, cool bro, it's all good, I'm no longer mad about the Special Deer you killed, we're even-stevens, have a lovely trip home, tell the wife I said hello." NO!!!! This is a PUNISHMEMT. This is Artemis taking revenge for Agamemnon’s mistake/in some instances his hubris and boasting. Any circumstance here that does not end with a dead Iphigenia therefore ends with a dissatisfied Artemis. And that ain't happening*.

*I also do NOT believe/credit any 'Artemis was trying to stop the war/emphasise the cost of war/use Iphigenia to show Agamemnon how the innocents suffer in war' takes. Because no. This is the same goddess who, alongside Apollo, murdered 12 of one of Agamemnon’s ancestors children because she boasted about having better pussy game than Artemis' mum. Artemis also shows up to stick her bow in a couple of times in the Iliad for the lolz. And it's clearly stated this war is happening/continuing/not being allowed to end BECAUSE of the gods in the Iliad.

The idea Artemis actually was trying to stop things/believed the war would stop if Agamemnon ~understood the cost~ is bullshit. (Not least because Agamemnon 1) is one of the few Greek Kings present who has firsthand war experience. 2) if you don't know already just…just go google the house of atreus then come back and try telling me fucking AGAMEMNON doesnt understand the suffering of innocents lmfao

This is a standard: mortal pisses off god, god demands they pay the price. The price is Iphigenia being killed. The only real choice Agamemnon has is how that happens. And, beyond the whole “pissed off god” thing (as if that wasn't enough) there are other factors here too:

ITCHY ARMIES

It's been discussed before that Agamemnon is not really alone in making this decision. Because there are: 1,000 ships (give or take) with him, each with, let's say, around 100 soldiers. That equals: a lot of people - around 100,000 soldiers. That's: a lot of fucking people. It's also: a lot of fucking people squished in a not very large space.

Source

See that lil red blob? That's Aulis. See the skinny channel between Aulis and the above chunk of land (which is Eubeoa). Yeh that’s where A Lot of ships are squished. Aulis was an ASSEMBLY point, it was meant to be the place everyone gathered, quick headcount, then yeet. They're not supposed to stay there.

Lots of Regular Ass People, nevermind soldiers, smooshed in one place causes lots of things to happen. None of them are good. Building boredom, and building tension, and building frustration is going to lead to: an increase in fights, scuffles, discontent and discipline issues. Especially amidst a group of soldiers who are newly assembled, newly brought together to mingle with other armies (and there WILL be factions who have previous beefs and are disposed to having enmity with each other). Add into that the fact most of the commanders/kings don't really have any proper experience in war/have just wrangled up their troops that's…a bad set-up and is asking for the army to eat itself alive if left long enough.

Pressures adding onto that, one of which is: disease/sickness. Even without divine help (thanks Apollo!) of plague spreading, lots of people smooshed in small spaces, especially with fighting/injuries, that's going to cause illness and infection. That's: bad.

Also…

“BECALMED!” “I AM CALMED!!!!!”

Something I see talked about LESS but which definitely feels like A Big Problem to me from my EXTENSIVE knowledge of it (thanks Black Sails!) is the ships being what we call ‘becalmed’. This sounds pleasant! It is: not. (Obligatory disclaimer i am Not, in general, A Boat Expert (i actually get seasick looool) BUT, some quick googleage confirms that, as I guessed, this would be: Bad.)

Being becalmed essentially means: the wind goes away, your sailing ship with its lovely big sails is great, a marvel of ancient world exploration! It can't do shit if there's: no wind. It gets stuck. Drifting vaguely and sadly waiting for the winds to pls come back so it can: go somewhere.

This USUALLY happens out on open sea and is very obviously: not desirable. However it can ALSO happen even while ships are at port under ‘certain circumstances’ in this case those circumstances are: pissed off gods. No wind means no movement. No movement means: no war and no Troy. No movement ALSO means: no going home.

“But but but ROWYN! What about the ROWERS!!!The Greek ships, according to Homer (and history) generally had oars!” I hear u boat people shriek. And yes they did! Oar-driven ships can also become becalmed in situations of rowers being: sleepy, the oars being broken or damaged, or currents/winds that are too strong to row against. (Or, mayhaps...an angry god!)

At a certain point the logic of boats etc has to be tempered by, well, temper. Specifically: Artemis’. In theory if we were just dealing with normal old ‘mother nature is being a bitch and has said ‘no winds for now!’’ that's one thing. And under those circumstances the fleet could've likely just oared its way out of port and off to Troy. We also have the element of: a pissed off god to consider.

UNDER PRESSURE (not the fun Queen kind)

The lack of winds is a means of applying pressure. Because, let's be real, no at least semi-reasonable human being (which Agamemnon, largely, WAS) is going to look at a daughter he loves (which Agamemnon evidently DID) and go “alright sweetie, unfortunately papa has to murder you now” without exhausting: ALL OTHER OPTIONS.

That means Artemis had to prevent any other options from working. So that there is an UNAVOIDABLE/INSURMOUNTABLE pressure/some sort of force pushing Agamemnon irresistibly towards: child sacrifice. That means Artemis is not going to let them just casually row their way out of port. Nor is she going to let them go home to abandon the attempt/try again later. She wants Agamemnon to be appropriately punished. Appropriately punished, as Artemis has decided, is Agamemnon killing Iphigenia. That means they are, supernaturally, becalmed. That is: very bad.

There are 100,000+ soldiers PLUS (as the Iliad notes) OTHER crew like rowers and clerks in ADDITION to the soldiers. They do not have supplies prepared to sustain them on an extended stop at what was supposed to just be a meeting place. They are NOT in a place designed to hold/support that many people. The land around them is filled with their OWN people CANNOT feed/water that extra months smooshed in here. And the whole “angry god says no ship movement” means they can't raid further afield/NOT their own people.

Artemis has essentially arranged it so that even if, by some (not-happening) MIRACLE, the kings manage to keep control of their increasingly unruly armies and they avoid in-fighting/mutiny/disease: these people are all going to start dying from dehydration and starvation. And quickly. People who are: in the process of dying from starvation and dehydration are not typically known for their rational minds and good choices. This is going to increase the tension and pressures and fighting/injury. It's going to increase the death toll.

THE ACTUAL CHOICE

So now Agamemnon’s ACTUAL choice, as enforced by, again, THE LITERAL GOD is: how many of your men are you going to let die before you give in and kill your daughter. With an extra bonus concern of: is your daughter going to get a quick, relatively merciful death or is she going to be torn apart (likely along with Agamemnon, his brother, and inner circle/closest men) by a starving, angry, disease-riddled mob?

This is also, incidentally, why Odysseus gets involved/helps this process. Because much as (apparently) he gets viewed as a ruthless, “ends justify ANY means” borderline sociopathic arsehole: he is not, in actual fact, comfortable with willy-nilly child murder! (What a high bar our blorbos have to clear, y'all…/s). What Odysseus IS capable of/where he excels is logic. And logic (as demonstrated by this feral shrieking which is, believe or fucking not, rooted in logic) says, clearly: Iphigenia is effectively already dead. And was as soon as Artemis made her demand. The only question now is how messy this is going to be/how much Iphigenia is going to suffer for this. Odysseus steps in to try and MINIMISE both (not for the sheer glee of logic-sanctioned child murder, actually)

I WOULD LIKE TO UNINSTALL 'GIVING A FUCK', PLS - Agamemnon

But okay back to Agamemnon and the bonus problem if the starving, angry, disease-riddled mob. Because THOSE PEOPLE are actually also an extra pressure on Agamemnon because he, repeatedly, indisputably and canonically CARES about the lives of the men who have pledged to follow him, and feels guilt/concern which IS STRONGER THAN his stubbornness and pride and just about everything else.

Imma throw some quotations at you now so you can't say this post is JUST me shrieking bc look! Iliad words! (All Iliad references below are from the Richmond Lattimore translation).

'Still I am willing to give her (Chryseis) back, if such is the best way.

I myself desire that my people be safe, not perish. (Iliad, Book 1, Line 116)

HE LITERALLY SAYS IT. LIKE HE SAYS IT RIGHT THERE!!! He tells the army Chryseis is dearer to him than his wife (which is a whole other kettle of fish, i aint getting into that rn) - but the POINT is he loves this woman, and he refused to ransom her back for A Lot Of Money. And he's not HAPPY about it, but as soon as he's told doing so will stop his people dying by plague (thanks Apollo!) he agrees. BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT HIS PEOPLE TO DIE.

"'Still, Zeus, bring to pass at least this thing that I pray for.

Let our men at least get clear and escape, and let not the Achaians be thus beaten down at the hands of the Trojans.’

[Agamemnon] spoke thus, and as he wept the father took pity upon him and bent his head, that the people should stay alive, and not perish.

(Iliad, Book 8, Line 242)

This is LITERALLY what he prays for.

Now keep in mind that in book 2 Zeus sent ‘Evil Dream’ down to Agamemnon and basically ordered him to go attack Troy because Zeus would let him capture the city and be victorious at last. And Zeus straight-up LIED to him. And has done nothing of the sort.

Agamemnon would be well within his rights to be like ‘yo, mate, the FUCK!? Where's my goddamn glory? Where's my victory you yourself promised me like 2 days ago!? Bruh!?!?!?’ (and he does kind of ask WHY, MAN!? WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS!? in the earlier part of this prayer, to be entirely transparent)

But what he ACTUALLY, ACTIVELY PRAYS FOR, is not for victory, or for strength, or personal glory, (which, those who've read the Iliad knows how dang important glory is to everyone/as a central theme), or even the ability to get revenge/payback and kill a bunch of Trojans in return.

Agamemnon asks nothing for himself, or even for vengeance for the dead; he asks for the living. He begs Zeus to please let his men escape and stop them from being slaughtered. And Zeus is so moved by his genuine grief and pain at this that he actually listens, and actually does let the people stay alive, because of Agamemnon’s prayer (and note how the wording echoes Agamemnon’s assertion in book 1- what he desires is his people ‘not perish’, and what Zeus grants in response to his book 8 prayer is that ‘the people…not perish’, further reinforcing that was NOT just talk on Agamemnon’s part).

There are other (many other) instances that prove Agamemnon Cares - but i think we Get It for the purposes of this meta (and I'm going to deep-dive the other examples later anyway), but like you see it, right??? You HAVE to see how much this man GENUINELY cares. He refuses vast amounts of wealth and treasures to ransom back Chryseis - but he's NOT willing to sacrifice any of his soldier's lives and IMMEDIATELY returns her (with additional gifts/his own wealth to make sure things are smoothed over properly). He's so obviously desperate and distraught when he prays, not for glory or victory, that Zeus (who has at this point forbidden his own wife and daughter from interfering to stop the Trojans killing the Greeks) feels pity for him and is moved to help him.

And EVEN IF you wanted to argue that this is an Agamemnon 10 years later and maybe he wasn't like that when the armies first gathered at Aulis…You CANNOT tell me, if THAT is how he responds to random soldiers, many of whom he's likely never even met/doesn't know the names of, yet feels responsibility over because they're HIS people and he is their leader, that he didn't care a thousand times more for his ACTUAL FLESH-AND-BLOOD, HOME GROWN AND RAISED DAUGHTER.

DEATH vs SACRIFICE

I will stand for no more casual “yeah Agamemnon killed his kid for better winds” takes. NO MORE! I WILL HAVE NONE OF IT.

I will permit no further “Agamemnon CHOSE to sacrifice his daughter for the war to go ahead” because did he FUCK. Agamemnon did not CHOOSE to kill Iphigenia. Agamemnon's only CHOICE was how and when she died and how many soldiers went with her.

There was NO way for Agamemnon to save Iphigenia. NONE. Because if there had been ANY alternative AT ALL: he damn well would've fucking taken it. “But but but he could've-” No. He couldn't.

Because Iphigenia's DEATH was not Agamemnon’s punishment and Artemis’ revenge. If it had been Artemis would've just killed her herself, as she did to Niobe's daughters. Iphigeneia's SACRIFICE was Agamemnon’s punishment and Artemis’ revenge.

She wanted HIM to do it. She wanted HIM to kill his child (either by holding the knife, or giving the order, either way). HE had to do that. HE had to actually kill his own child and live with the grief and guilt and consequences of that for the rest of his life. THAT was what she wanted.

He killed her Special Deer and wasn't upset about it, so she wanted him to Feel It. She wanted him to kill something and be tormented by that grief and guilt for the rest of his life, as she felt he should have been over the Special Deer.

Artemis didn't want Iphigenia to die necessarily, she wanted Agamemnon to kill her. (And that's why the last minute switcharoo with the deer on the altar instead works/is sometimes allowed by Artemis- because even if Iphigenia lives, Agamemnon STILL gets to suffer in the knowledge and the guilt that he WOULD have killed her).

WHO LIVES, WHO DIES, WHO TELLS YOU-TO KILL YOUR OWN CHILD? WHAT THE FUCK, ARTEMIS!?

Agamemnon never got to choose if Iphigenia lived or died. The ONLY one who had that power of THAT choice was Artemis herself. (Which is seen, as I mentioned, when sometimes she last minute swaps Iphigenia for a deer (Artemis dropping in another Special Deer for Agamemnon to kill in Aulis like: YOU'LL CARE ABOUT KILLING THIS ONE, MOTHERFUCKER.) and takes Iphigenia as an acolyte instead.

Because (in a rather nice parallel to her father Zeus also being moved by Agamemnon’s pleas to protect his soldiers in the Iliad) Artemis acknowledges that, yeah, this is pretty fucked up actually lol. And she does not necessarily help/forgive Agamemnon - but does protect/spare Iphigenia/his soldiers. And, again as discussed: Agamemnon STILL gets to suffer/live with the consequences of Special Deer Killing Crime with The Guilt…(and also the axe to the face courtesy of Clytemnestra. But I think that was just an added bonus punishment rather than the actual goal tbh)) it's a win-win for Artemis. And a constant soul-crushing loss for Agamemnon.

QUESTION: IMPOSSIBLE CHOICE. ANSWER: GUARANTEED SUFFERING

He could NEVER have saved her. He could NEVER have prevented her death. He could ONLY minimise casualties and suffering. He was in an impossible situation and it could only ever end with the death of his child (or 100,000 random soldiers instead, IF you actually think they'd have all just sat around and died for this, Iphigenia being brought by Agamemnon/Odysseus/Santa Claus or otherwise)That is: FUCKED UP.

It was not about winds. It was not about war. It was not about life or death. It was about saving who and what he could. (Actually it was about: SUFFERING regardless. But in terms of 'what Agamemnon could ACTUALLY influence/change - that's where the minimising agony part comes in.)

ONLY Artemis could stop Iphigenia dying. Agamemnon could only lose. That's why it was a punishment! That's why the story is a tragedy!!! Because there is no way to win.

Try to row to Troy, fuck your lack of wind/impossible demand: god says no.

Try to row home, fuck your lack of wind/impossible demand: god says no.

Refuse to sacrifice Iphigenia:

-Scenario A: Your army of 100,000 men starve/dehydrate/fight/disease their way to death because they CANNOT LEAVE THIS PLACE* (god says no) or raid/resupply (god says no)

*except to go obtain your child. So she can be killed. Bc that's the only thing the god WOULD allow. (Logic, people).

-Scenario B: they decide to help you out and murder your child for you. (and probably you and all your family/closest allies as well). Which is NOT gonna be pleasant.

Sacrifice Iphigenia: congrats you killed your own kid, you are now: sad forever and you STILL have to fight a 10 year long war.

This is what we call: The Ideal Tragedy. A Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose set-up. Just the way the gods like it.

IN CONCLUSION: THE YEET GRENADE OF FACTS AND TRUTH

Okay is that enough now? Can I please stop yapping about this?? Do we concede that “Agamemnon killed Iphigenia to go to war/for better winds to get to war faster/was just soooo horny for that good sweet bloodshed action that he casually executed his firstborn kid” is NOT WHAT FUCKING HAPPENED!?!?!?

NO CHOICE. NO SAVING. NO OPTIONS BUT SUFFERING: the greek god's FAVOURITE way to punish naughty mortals.

May I now please REST!?!?!? too bad, im gonna. But now i have this rant to yeet at peoples’ heads like a damn grenade of Facts And Truth if ppl start @-ing Agamemnon for this. (And u can yeet it too, feel free. This is not just My grenade now, it is Our grenade).

Agamemnon has lots of other Actual Flaws: can we talk about them instead!? Please!! Please god roast this man in a Factual Way, so i dont feel COMPELLED to defend him. That is literally SO doable. I genuinely beg u.