#dt discourse

[alittledizzy]

helpful list of things that neither dream nor george have ever been accused of, for people trying to clear the twitter-brain from their perception:

kissing anyone underage having sex with anyone underage pressuring anyone for sex pressuring anyone to kiss them initiating any kissing or sex without consent trying to coerce anyone into kissing or sex touching anyone in a non-PG rated area touching anyone's breasts or genitals without consent not accepting no as a response to a consent request physically hurting or abusing any woman in any way

a lot of the language out there on twitter particularly is designed to emphasize them as monsters. a lot of people are conflating reality with personal opinions on them based on rumors or the telephone game of facts. a lot of people are using interpersonal relationship drama between people in their late teens/early twenties as proof of abuse when people that age are just messy and it's not a crime. especially considering all of this played out online because it was the pandemic and everyone was online.

form your own opinions on dream and george. but do it on the facts of the situation and not emotion or projection over things that didn't happen. and for fuck's sake don't let twitter be the determining factor in how you view a situation.

[jestbee]

okay back to misery. we lost ant too

Ant made a statement off twitter without mentioning George once, simply said to support victims and that that the fandom's extreme reactions to all things is harmful.

"I support Caiti" does not equal "I am no longer friends with George and think he's evil" there is nuance. As usual.

[blackcat419]

I might start using DT and RT to talk about Danaerys and Rhaegar Targaryen because I cannot make a single post going ‘hey, maybe the incest family built on incest that uses dragons and have a lot of Nazi overtones to them aren’t the good guys?’ Without some going

‘Hey sweaty, but you’re such a dumb bitch for thinking a woman or this romantic man could ever do anything questionable’

[faerygardens]

There are more tallulah & tommy fics on ao3 than there are pac & mike fics

[sajdd]

Hi I am an uncultured swine, please tell me what the situation? Thanks!

wilbur soot who was outed as an abuser just uploaded an "apology" video (where he addresses nothing and promotes his band apparently. i havent watched it bc i refuse to give views but thats what ive seen people say. classic youtuber apology.), and also uploaded a video on a new channel where he just. talks about the lmanburg flag i guess??????? released these AT THE SAME TIME BTW??? like jsut casually kickstarting a new channel???????

wtaf is going on who thought this was a good idea and WHO THE FUCK IS SUBBING TO THE NEW CHANNEL... PEOPLE ARE CRAZY

[ingravinoveritas]

Someone shelving a DVD of Staged series 1 and 2 in the LGBTQ+ section of a shop is entirely too accurate and will never not be hilarious...

[alittledizzy]

I feel like after the past month we should get a voucher for a free April off

Everyone's ready for April aka hell month for dream stans?

[maxedes]

re: the george crisis

let me start this of by saying a few things

1. i am not american but i am strongly into american politics, to a point where i probably know more about the american government then my own countries.

2. i am a big leftist on all fronts. got voted most politically active in my schools yearbook, did my countries equivalent of a levels in politics, party member of my countries leftist party & get called „too woke“ every other day for not letting peoples discriminatory bs fly

3. i haven‘t seen dts yet & might not watch at all for all the reasons (but to me that quote read as sarcastic?) so this is only about the podcast thing

4. i have supported George for quite some time & won’t deny that i am a little biased. you would be well within your rights to call me a little hypocritical for being a little less harsh with him than i would be with others

That being said: I've watched the podcast clip multiple times, and I don't understand why it's getting the reaction it is. George started a talking about leading versus driving where he states „best leader in the world.“

Then he starts a metaphor and unfortunately, he picked a prominent world leader—who happens to be the orange man, But the way I understand it is that, by the time he starts talking about him the „best leader“ thing is already concluded:

A metaphor that seems funny in the first half where he paints a picture of Trump in an F1 car & then becomes incredibly problematic when he comes to the part about being a good leader nonetheless.

While the comment was certainly dumb and he should be held accountable for it, I don't see it as an endorsement of any kind. In fact, he even corrected himself from saying "not a bad..." to "not a horrendous leader," which, to me, seems like he took a moment to reconsider his words and realized that the leader he was referring to was actually bad (horrendous and more in my humble opinion). Unfortunately, it was too late, and he was already running with the metaphor.

Should he have walked it back and chosen a different example? Yes, most definitely. But do I think he called Trump a good leader or was supportive of him in any way? Genuinely, no.

I appreciate that people are calling him out on it, as it's incredibly important that we hold people accountable and ensure they do better in the future. (However, I do feel that this whole thing has been blown out of proportion, especially on Twitter, where some people are acting like he came out wearing a MAGA hat and trying to become the next El*n M*sk)

That being said, I will continue to support him. The comment didn't strike me as malicious, just incredibly stupid. But at the same time, I'm fully aware that we are supporting a very rich, white man, and I have never been under the illusion that he was some kind of super politically aware activist icon.

if you are confused about what i am talking about:

- dts quote (sorry can‘t remember where i found the screenshot):

- podcast clip

edit:

dts scene (imo literally nonsense, he just saw a lot of people & wanted to know what was going on, god forbid a boy is curious)

[alittledizzy]

Dream's activity yesterday makes me think that we're headed back to normality. Sapnap posted his first TikTok in ages, which I think is indicative of him actually trying to get back on the grind. Now we just need a sign of life from George... though to be honest I'm fine with him giving it a little more time. I am guessing the first step back will come through one of Sapnap's streams or if Dream actually posts a video. Maybe in Sapnap's snapchats if he actually goes through it it, considering he should be back in Florida soon. But I miss my cat so much and I'm trying to be patient but... I need to see him to know he's okay.

[jestbee]

At the end of the day that young girl is clearly very angry, and hurt, and wants to move on and I think going over and over the specifics isn't going to do anyone any favours. Everyone has said their piece now, the chips have fallen where they have, lets just let everyone rest.

[mrgladstonegander]

SO much timephoon discourse can be solved by the fact that the show is aware that the triplets (louie) shouldnt be expected to immediately think of della as a mom, and also that della isn't the Greatest Mother Ever (because she. yknow. met her kids 10 years late)

[aq2003]

Just saw that DT is going to participate in The Assembly Michael Sheen did last year, and I'm kinda terrified lol. And surprised. Michael must be one hell of a storyteller to convince DT to go for it.

Like, it seems like soooo much something he wouldn't really enjoy. (I'm aware I don't actually know him but bear with me) like it wouldn't be fun even in the 'it was super hard but worth it in the end, I've grown as a person' kind of way. I'm actually gonna be real glad to be proven wrong if he's really gonna thrive on this. But so far, from what I've seen of him during interviews and panels, he's really good at deflecting awkward questions, not at answering them. And here this won't do the trick, you gotta be honest here, not to deflect - it defeats the purpose otherwise. But from all I've seen he, like, shrivels when he's made to share things he doesn't want to share, and not in a fun way...

Michael Sheen is much more of a sharing kind in this aspect, they're like the opposite in this, so I can see how Michael would find this experience fulfilling and rewarding. But ok, we'll see and I'll be happy to be proven not as knowledgeable in the inner workings of DT's psyche department as I thought I was...

i read the synopsis for the show (and the announcement for it) and it seems like it was pretty positive and like i cant imagine it'll be too terrible ?? there's also the case of like, he could sort of deflect from answering the question by answering it in a broader way. like that time when he was asked about his own personal gender expression at a con and he talked more about supporting trans people as an ally

[sylhorn]

I’m kind of baffled about the state of dawntrail discussions having two parties in regards to Living Memory, one being “shutting it down is amoral” and the other being “it’s moral and not at all like what Emet-Selch wanted to do with us”. It’s like a lot of people refuse to engage with the narrative from any other perspective other than their own when the game essentially hits you over the head with the message.

Yes, the existence of Living Memory is unsutainable and amoral and, frankly, pointless – you can make the very valid argument that the people there were just AI chatbots trained on the memories of a given individual, leeching off of the souls of others, their existence demanding the genocide of the entire universe in the end. I agree, in our eyes, Living Memory is an affront to life, sure!

Nobody seems to talk about that this is the exact same perspective Emet-Selch had about us, or when mentioned, people say that it isn’t the same. It is? He very explicitly tells us that the people living on the shards today are pale imitations to what he considered to be life, and thus shutting it down and trying to undo his mistake IS the solution (he is very much like Solas from DA in this regard), because in his eyes there’s nothing to lose but everything to gain. Emet-Selch saw us in the same light we see the people of Living Memory, and the game is painfully unsubtle in drawing this parallel. Even with the differences (we are not recreated memories but actual souls being reborn from the aetherial sea, etc-etc), the game WANTS you to make this connection between Emet and what we do. It is quite literally the point!

Yes, Living Memory has to be shut down because its biggest drawback is that it’s unsustainable and would continue to destroy what we deem to be lives. It is also arguably an affront to what we consider life and its natural end (directly opposing the message of Endwalker). The Endless aren’t even too hung up about this shutdown, bar Sphene. Shutting down Living Memory is necessary.

But you can’t say it was morally good and unquestionable if you can’t give Emet’s views the same grace. In the end, both his plans (and the Ascians at large, frankly) and Living Memory had to be stopped because that means survival for us, but to divorce the two narratives to maintain the WoL and co.’s moral superiority is disingenuous and does the story a disservice.

[sajdd]

crazy how theres so much discourse about toriel, asgore and sans because of the new chapters - specifically ch4 ending

sans has been my favourite character in undertale since day 1 but hes just a funny little gag character in deltarune who came off a bit insensitive at the end of ch4. he probably has literally 0 clue about any of the issues or family drama going on. in his eyes he's probably just having a fun time with a new friend. like yeah he was quite insensitive to kris and susie but i honestly think its just not that deep. (at least not yet.) i think people are just expecting undertale-levels of introspection from him at this moment when he's basically not even plot-relevant right now

toriel is a caring mother who's going through the stresses of looking after a kid who has been distancing themselves from everyone for a long time, missing her other child who has been away for studies, and is being stalked by her ex husband who just will not leaver her alone. the way she acted at the end of the chapter was Not Good™ as it was very irresponsible of not checking up on her child but she's just a kind woman who is flawed and made a mistake just like everyone else can

asgore is a man who clearly knows something about dess' dissapearance and we can infer that somehow this led to the dreemur's marriage falling apart and he's desperately trying to prove his innocence or something - thinking that if he does that then it will all go back to normal. is that a situation that calls for some sympathy? probably, depending on what happened. but is stalking toriel the answer to fixing their marriage? fuck no he should absolutely be judged for that - but while his current actions are inexcusable we can assume that whatever happened has made him that desperate of a man and this can evoke some feelings of sympathy

most of us have seen undertale and know how complex all these characters are. yes they are different in deltarune but the context of undertale allows us to already have a loose grasp of what their personalities are like.

they are all complex characters who are well-meaning but can make brash or emotional decisions that do not have the intention of hurting someone but hurt a lot anyway. why is everybody suddenly jumping to extremes on all these characters. none of them are 100% evil or good in this scenario.

[ingravinoveritas]

You are mistaken, I've seen The Holy Crown and DT wasn't there. The first episode was starring Ben as Richard II, and it came out just before David played his Richard II for the RSC.

Thank you for the correction, Anon! I am not sure how I got that mixed up, but from what I had looked into, David and Ben were (erroneously) credited as being Richard II and Bolingbroke (respectively) in Hollow Crown, so I apologize for the confusion. It does seem though that David and Ben were in the sixth episode of the first season of Shakespeare Uncovered back in 2013 that was all about Hamlet (though whether they were interviewed at the same time or separately, I am not sure, as I have not had the opportunity to view this special).

It's also possible that David and Ben's paths have crossed in any number of other ways, with both being working theatre actors who have likely worked in the same or similar circles for many years. Again, thinking of the source that the person in that post mentioned being a theatre usher, it could be someone who worked at the same theatre where plays they'd both done (separately) were staged. It sounds like this was a long time ago as well, so that narrows the window of possibility a little bit.

In any case, I greatly appreciate this new information, and I will go ahead and amend my previous post accordingly. Thanks for writing in! x

[bubblegum-bros-sys]

Hi friend! Genuine question. I would love to follow, but before I do, I wanted to check if proshippers or radqueers are allowed on your profile? If not you may politely block or simply say no. Thank you, have a pleasant day dear. :)

IM GONNA ANSWER THIS HONESTLY. THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR DISCOURSE. I AM VERY SOLID IN MY VALUES AND OPINIONS AND IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THEM, EITHER SHUT UP ABOUT IT OR BLOCK US, WE DONT CARE /lh /srs

Oh buddy the day has come where I must reveal my stance on proship and rad queer (not like I ACTUALLY have to but yk rent lowering gunshots or whatever, this account has gotten bigger than I wanted anyways)

AHEM (don’t be scared asker I have very nuanced opinions)

First things first, short answer is yes, you can interact, anyone’s allowed to interact, I don’t really give a shit and many of my headmates give even LESS of a shit. If I disagree with or dislike you, as long as you’re not causing problems or make me specifically and directly uncomfortable in some way then I don’t care, and if I do care, I will simply block and move on. I don’t really like having too much hate or discourse on my page (especially from other people, yes I know I post about discourse fairly often, it’s because people annoy me and I have a lot to say lol) no matter who it’s targeted towards so honestly I’d have more of an issue with anyone of any stance causing problems than anyone of any stance just like…existing

Second, everyone in my system has different opinions on LOTS of things, including this, so like anyone who’s not comfortable with ANY opinion on ANYTHING either needs to be prepared to be civil or just block us tbh

Third, I and most of my system personally align with what we understand to be the original meaning of “proship” which is the whole “ship and let ship” “don’t like don’t read” kind of thing. I believe anything that exists anyways has a right to and if I dislike it I will simply not engage because good lord it’s not that difficult guys 🙏🙏🙏

Fourth, on the topic of radqueer, that is something that is EXTREMELY varied opinion wise in our system. I personally, and probably the most common opinion in our system, is that we kind of simply don’t care. It’s none of our business, we don’t fully understand it enough to have a super concrete opinion on it, I think trying to label our (personal, not general) extremely nuanced opinions is pointless. As long as you are not directly, knowingly, and intentionally hurting people, I do not care. I absolutely support all non-harmful paraphilias, and any paraphilias that COULD be harmful, I still support the people who have them, because they are people, many of whom cannot control their thoughts and feelings, just like anyone else. Again, as long as you are not directly, knowingly, and intentionally hurting people (which includes any form of non-consent) then I don’t care. If people can experience it, it’s part of life, and the second we put a line on where an experience is “too far” we open up more avenues for marginalized and oppressed people to get hurt.

And for TransIDs (or whatever alternative term people might use), to be fully honest, 95% of the time they are not harmful at all, they’re hardly different from xenogenders or literally just like…wanting to do something you currently don’t for whatever reason, and anything that possibly could be harmful, in our opinion, is more about how the person actually acts and understands the experience/identity/etc. they’re identifying as rather than…simply identifying as it. Idk if it’s an autistic thing but genuinely outside of people misusing or misunderstanding things, I don’t really get the concept of appropriation or gatekeeping on any front. I UNDERSTAND THE REASONS BEHIND IT, I understand a lot of it stems from people misunderstanding or misusing things, it stems from racism and colonization, it stems from ableism, it’s a way to protect your culture/experience (I guess??? I truly do not get it on a disability/neurodivergence/mental illness front tbh like yall are bordering on eugenics here with half your arguments just being “why would you want this???” You sound like a trans med that’s embarrassing) I get it. But your race and ethnicity and body and brain are all things you’re born into without say just like anything else is, and so many experiences overlap, and so many cultures have unknowingly made extremely similar practices/religions/clothing/make up/food/etc all throughout history. I feel like culture and experience is something that should be shared, and if someone resonates with something, they shouldn’t be blocked from it just because of the circumstances of how they were born

Tbh a lot of our opinions boil down to these key values and opinions:

1: don’t directly, intentionally, knowingly, and non-consensually hurt others

2: do whatever the fuck you want forever. If everyone was kind to each other it literally wouldn’t matter. Life is meant to be lived, experiences are meant to be had and shared and understood

3: anything that DOES exist has a RIGHT to exist, otherwise it wouldn’t exist, and again, the second you start trying to control that is the second you let controlling ANYTHING ANYONE disagrees with be ok, and that puts all of us in more danger

4: be kind and empathetic and understanding. Be open minded and LEARN. Stop shit talking when you don’t even know what you’re talking about. Way too many people, especially online, make half-baked opinions based on what they hear other people say and then are deathly stubborn about it, and that doesn’t help anyone. That’s what creates echo chambers and kills progress, creativity, individual thinking, and general kindness and understanding

5: I’m not god. I’m not omnipotent. I cannot and will not ever know, understand, or be able to control everything, it is pointless to try

6: at the end of the day we could all just fucking put our phones down and be people. People with varied experiences and feelings and thoughts and opinions, all of which are inherently valid, because they exist

I probably have more to say idk this is a very nuanced and honestly interesting topic to me but I’ve already got my block button locked and loaded for anyone trying to argue with me. I don’t care if you disagree, this is how I feel, and unlike a lot of people, I don’t let strangers on the internet dictate how I’m “allowed” to feel. If that were the case then literally I’d be a fucking neonazi because that shit is all over the internet. But I’m not, because I have critical thinking skills, confidence in myself, and arguably life ruining levels of empathy and thirst for knowledge (having low empathy is not a bad thing this is just part of the context for ME)