#duncan and brienne parallels

[atopvisenyashill]

one thing i wonder re: braime is whether anyone will know she's been knighted. i was thinking about dunk, and how dunk uses the "any knight can make a knight" defense when it comes to his own knighthood - a very easy lie, and not even a real stretch of the truth. ser arlan would have knighted dunk, he just died before he could. but it is still a lie and that's the point of dunk's reputation as a knight; he is the best knight who ever lived and he was never even knighted, but he had more moral backbone than any of the ones who actually said the vows. so then i think about brienne - jaime knighting her after the lsh escape, with no witnesses around, as a culmination of their bond, but no one believes the lord commander actually knighted a woman. so in that way, she's in conversation with her ancestor; she actually was knighted in the way dunk said he was, but won't be known as a knight despite also having more moral backbone than any contemporary knight.

[franzkafkagf]

the maiden of tarth

[g0lightly]

help! i found sansa + brienne parallels to true knighthood via barristan selmy + sandor clegane (mostly) planted in ACOK and i can't get up!

as i have previously written, brienne and sansa both keep blood-stained kingsguard cloaks that come into their possession during ACOK. analogous to maiden cloaks, i read these cloaks as symbolizing two idealistic characters facing the brutal reality that the "protector" institutions they have looked up to (knighthood, primarily) their entire lives do not live up to their ideals. while marriage is certainly an institution that has failed to protect both of these characters, i don't read cloaks as an inherent marriage symbol. if we get sansa putting sandor's former cloak on brienne after she gets the hound's helm from lem that's another story but at the end of the day i think it's significant that sansa wrapped herself in sandor's cloak; he simply dropped it as he did with his kingsguard duties, he did not put it on her as is done in a marriage ceremony.

while the brienne parallels to barristan are more obvious, there is also a very direct parallel between sansa and barristan in ACOK i just noticed that knocked me off my feet a bit: both sansa and barristan plead with the cruel king they were sworn to in order to stop that king from executing dontos hollard because they recognize that he is defenseless. when dontos was a child, barristan plead with king aerys to spare him when he executed the rest of house hollard. of course, barristan was sworn to aerys as a knight and sansa was sworn to joffrey as his betrothed; i think this just drives home the potential for brienne and sansa to wield their complementary abilities for their own cause like a nontoxic version of cersei and jaime (the subject of a forthcoming essay that examines wuthering heights and arthurian allusions in asoiaf).

this connects to a more obvious parallel between brienne and barristan that is set up when we meet brienne through catelyn. i've always thought there has to be some significance to the fact that brienne's place on renly's kingsguard was originally meant to go to barristan selmy, a character who is presented in-universe as the closest thing to a living true knight. as is the nature of true knighthood in this series, however, it's debatable if this can apply to him given his service to aerys while he abused rhaella. through catelyn and later jaime (via loras) we learn that renly made a few assumptions when he gave the blue knight position to brienne:

renly assumed that barristan had gone on to serve robb as king in the north instead of himself; in reality, we know that barristan went off to essos where he took on a false identity to serve dany out of loyalty to house targaryen.

renly thought that brienne would not live long, given her willingness to die for him, implying that he believed her position would be open for someone he'd see as more worthy in the future. once again, in reality we know that actually renly died and brienne lived on, guilty that she did not have the chance to die for him as they both seemingly wanted.

i believe this sets up two major themes for brienne's character: 1) that a true knight's loyalty cannot be bound by the powers that be 2) brienne's connection to death/the stranger. as i also touch on in the post linked above, i think that brienne is foreshadowed to become the next hound after lem (an idea explored in my fic!) which is another stranger-coded persona connected to the idea of true knighthood. sandor clegane is also the person who fills the vacancy that barristan leaves.

similar to what sandor does with his own cloak during the battle of the blackwater, barristan throws his white cloak at joffrey's feet during his dismissal scene and Sansa later kneels before it to plead for her father's life. given that sandor was barristan's replacement, i read the cloak that sandor leaves with sansa as an extension of the cloak that barristan abandoned in front of sansa when she plead for ned's life. it might even literally be the same cloak! extrapolating from this, i think that brienne will ultimately be a balance between sandor and barristan in her knightly capacity (even if she is not a knight). this also means that both sansa and brienne have a bloodstained cloak that was (symbolically) supposed to belong to barristan.

both barristan and sandor literally as well as metaphorically gave up their white cloaks (in front of sansa fwiw) with the intention to serve someone they felt they owed their service to but ultimately end up serving that person's younger family member. though barristan set out to serve viserys, he winds up serving daenerys. though sandor set out to serve sansa, he winds up serving arya. as we know, grrm likes to do things in threes -- i think there's a good chance that brienne serving sansa in catelyn's stead will be the third iteration of this pattern. and because this would be the third iteration, i imagine there will be some sort of twist such as brienne turning on lady stoneheart if she endangers sansa (another idea explored in my aforementioned fic).

additionally, it is emphasized time and time again in brienne's POV chapters that she takes her oath to catelyn even more seriously because she is dead. this provides another mirror to barristan, who is forced to re-evaluate his service to aerys' usurper after his unprecedented removal from the kingsguard. he takes on a new identity and exiles himself to essos to renew his oath to house targaryen, though not to the targaryen he expected to serve. if brienne takes on the hound's identity and serves sansa, that would certainly rhyme nicely with barristan's trajectory.

i think the role of the stranger/death is important because brienne has to kill the idea of what a knight is supposed to be just as sansa has to kill the idea of what a lady is supposed to be (RIP lady, that's the real meaning of her death imo). when lem tells brienne that the hound (meaning himself) will kill her and when brienne tells jaime that the hound will kill sansa, what if that is setting up brienne and sansa letting their ideal knight and lady selves die to become something they get to define for themselves? this would also provide a contrast with cersei and jaime, who served as mentor figures to sansa and brienne respectively in the role that they want to fulfill (queen for sansa, knight for brienne). both lannisters show their respective younger idealist counterparts the dark side of the future they initially want for themselves.

obviously i do ship brienne x sansa assuming things happen on an age appropriate timeline; tbh i thought they had chemistry on the show and now i'm spiraling about their parallels in the books which are also sending their characters in a much more compelling direction. but at the end of the day i don't think these textual allusions have to be romantic! same goes for plenty of other ships involving brienne and sansa that i won't name here bc 1) i appreciate some of them thematically 2) i don't want to invoke the shippers' wrath! sometimes characters are important in each other's arcs (i 1000% believe this will be the case for brienne and sansa) but that doesn't equal a romantic endgame. however i also fully believe that brienne as sansa's true love and true knight would be a beautifully subversive yet text-supported culmination of several main themes in the series (yet another essay on this to come). grrm has not been the best with wlw stuff in POV format but fire and blood has (perhaps foolishly) given me a hope that something like this could be done well 🥹

[marwyn]

AFFC Brienne II / Brienne’s ancestor Dunk thinking about Jaime’s great-grandmother Rohanne in “The Sworn Sword”

[catofoldstones]

(Rhaegar Frey - jonos frey, rhaenyra and cersei historical parallels,direwolf and the stag foreshadowing in the prologue,a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair=purple wedding, duncan the tall and brienne parallels, the rule of 3s prevalent in the story including shireen in twow )

fandom at large : brilliant foreshadowing and parallels we're so smart :D

fans : ashford theory + jonnel and sansa having reversed parallels in story would make some sense

Fandom at large : ......its just a coincidence you guys are reaching :/

Jonsas were reaching when they said that Sansa will go North in the books. Jonsas were reaching when they said that Sansa will be the QiTN in the show. Jonsas were reaching when they said that there will be no Targ restoration. Jonsas were reaching when they said a Dark! Dany will burn KL. Jonsas were reaching when they said Sansa and Arya will come back together as sisters and as a team. What are you saying anon? We have always been reaching.

[spectrum-color]

GRRM has in many cases blatantly made historical figures who exist to be expies of main character stories, whether it be for foreshadowing or just because he likes certain archetypes. Which is your fave?

[dyannawynnedayne]

Round Three: Which Character Parallel Is Your Favorite?

Dunk and Brienne: art by @kraehenkunst (1, 2)

Cersei and Catelyn: art by @shripscapi (1, 2)

Dunk and Brienne

The Shield

The old man’s brown had always seemed drab to Dunk. “The field should be the color of sunset,” he said suddenly. “The old man liked sunsets. And the device…”“An elm tree,” said Egg. “A big elm tree, like the one by the pool, with a brown trunk and green branches.”“Yes,” Dunk said. “That would serve. An elm tree…but with a shooting star above. Could you do that?”The girl nodded. “Give me the shield. I’ll paint it this very night and have it back to you on the morrow.”

A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms: The Hedge Knight

 "Your door reminded me of an old shield I once saw in my father's armory." She described the arms as best she could recall them."[...]"You did beautifully," she said, when the woman showed her the freshly painted shield. It was more a picture than a proper coat of arms, and the sight of it took her back through the long years, to the cool dark of her father's armory. She remembered how she'd run her fingertips across the cracked and fading paint, over the green leaves of the tree, and along the path of the falling star.

AFFC, Brienne II

Cersei and Catelyn

Watched Their Sons Die

Boom, the drum sounded, boom doom boom doom. The old man’s lips went in and out. The knife trembled in Catelyn’s hand, slippery with sweat. “A son for a son, heh,” he repeated. “But that’s a grandson … and he never was much use.”A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. “Jaime Lannister sends his regards.” He thrust his longsword through her son’s heart, and twisted.Robb had broken his word, but Catelyn kept hers. She tugged hard on Aegon’s hair and sawed at his neck until the blade grated on bone. Blood ran hot over her fingers. His little bells were ringing, ringing, ringing, and the drum went boom doom boom.

ASOS, Catelyn VII

When he heard Cersei’s scream, he knew that it was over.I should leave. Now. Instead he waddled toward her.His sister sat in a puddle of wine, cradling her son’s body. Her gown was torn and stained, her face white as chalk. A thin black dog crept up beside her, sniffing at Joffrey’s corpse. “The boy is gone, Cersei,” Lord Tywin said. He put his gloved hand on his daughter’s shoulder as one of his guardsmen shooed away the dog. “Unhand him now. Let him go.” She did not hear.

ASOS, Tyrion VIII

[wolfsneedles]

Jaime Lannister 🤝 Dunk

having trippy sexual dreams about women they like but never admit really much that they do who can possibly kick their ass and they would thank them too.

[nooooooooooooooooooooone]

Ser Duncan the Tall/Brienne of Tarth

[agentrouka-blog]

Sansa felt that she had swallowed a bat in her tummy when she saw Joffery looking at her in ASOS. In same book she was described as some kind of witch with bat wings fly away after killing Joffery with spells. For me it's foreshadowing for Dany. Dany had a child who had bat wings. She also dream of having bat wings which came true through Drogon. She already engaged in witchcraft in AGOT. Sansa 'killing' Joffery could be implying Dany killing Aegon. Thoughts?

Hi anon!

The question to me is: what purpose do these parallels serve?

The suggestion of Dany connected to regicide or kinslaying is not so outlandish that GRRM needs to try and foreshadow it subtly by using Sansa as a "passive vessel". The parallel is not to the future for Dany but to the past. So the foreshadowing must apply in the other direction.

The entirety of ASOS, but especially the weddings and that wedding breakfast, have a number of parallels between Sansa and AGOT-Dany, and the death of a "king" is no exception.

Sansa witnesses the murder of the guy she was originally supposed to marry, which is officially blamed on her legal husband. It gains her the reputation of a killer. Joffrey and Viserys seem to line up more than Joffrey and Aegon. It's also a vague parallel to Cersei, who thought to marry Rhaegar and marries his killer instead.

Dany "exchanged" Drogo's child for the dragons. Cersei had three bastards with her twin. Sansa has... a leather-winged creature in her belly. Not her husband's work, for certain. If we are going three for three... Brienne is bearing the Lothston bat shield on the first part of her journey to find Sansa, but she paints over it with kingsguard Duncan's personal arms. Not exactly fertility imagery. So this bat likely refers to something closer to what Cersei and Dany did: a "child" by a controversial partner, incest-vibes and an elemental connection to her ancestry: snow. Or a "leather-winged creature", a snow dragon.

The bat-in-tummy is part of a pattern in this chapter: mentions of an upset tummy and moonblood, mentions of burning eggs, mentions of having a baby in her belly by the same Joffrey who triggers the bat comments, mentions of Ellaria bearing bastard children... there is a lot of imagery playing on fertility and bastardy surrounding that bat for Sansa.

She is not Joffrey's bride, and not truly Tyrion's wife, and the bat fluttering in her belly is only an image. It has to be about the future. A bastard bat in Sansa's future. Or, rather, a bastard dragon.

The rumored flight on batwings, on the other hand, is in Arya's POV much later. It underlines the connection between bats and dragons, but it's only a rumor that we know is untrue. Killing with a spell and flying dragon imagery fit Stannis and certainly Dany but not Sansa. The "magic" for Sansa was murder by poison, she climbed down from the castle herself, and her "wings" were the sails of a ship.

I'd venture a guess that this second mention is much closer to the kind of foreshadowing you suggest. This rumor matches the scary stories told of Danelle Lothston in AFFC, which foreshadow a twisted image of Hazzea and how rumors affect Dany's reputation in Essos and Westeros. It stands to reason that this is an instance that paints a contrast between Sansa and Dany. When told about Sansa, the rumor is pretty silly. But people will have reason to tell similar stories about another character in the future, and then they might just be true. Killing kings with a spell ("Dracarys") and flying away and all.

[atopvisenyashill]

Asking this because I (for some reason) have yet to see a theory stating this (even though it must exist!) but waht do you think the changes are of Brienne being the person who gets Alaynes favor and her potentially competing on Sansa's behalf in a trial for the kinslaying allegations? Obviously Brienne and Sansa even meeting is hotly debated but with the direction the show went in I can't see Briensa (platonic) not happening!

First I'm assuming you meant kingslaying because I was like wait how did I forget Sansa being accused of killing one of her siblings omg?? alsdjf unless you mean "kinslaying allegations" ie she betrayed Ned in which case, if that does come up (it's certainly possible) it's not likely to come up until waaaay later because the only person who would care is like, Arya, really, (I think both Jon and Bran would understand Sansa's actions here) and I don't think it will escalate to Brienne having to fight a trial by combat for her in that case.

BUT.

THAT'S AN INTERESTING THEORY. I think the general consensus here is that they're going to meet somehow at the tourney and escape it together, and also, Shadrich will be involved and probably Bronze Yohn as well, but that's pretty much as concrete as I've seen anyone get (altho if anyone does have a more concrete theory, let me know!!!).

So firstly, I think this would match up with the Ashford Tourney Theory very well -> Sansa having all the same suitors, only for the tourney to get upended by a trial by the seven/the appearance of The Truest Knight In All Of Westeros. Brienne, being both a True Knight and a descendant of Dunk, makes the most sense for being part of the foreshadowing of this theory in my opinion. And that little note we got of GRRM's outline included that line "kill the mouse" which points to Shadrich being a problem for Sansa or Brienne or both in the coming twow chapters. However...some random hedge knight can't just make off with either Sansa Stark, Last Surviving Stark or Alayne Stone, Only Child Of Lord Protector Baelish, without causing a HUGE ruckus (look at her escape from KL - they needed a huge ruckus to cover up their movements!). SO. Considering he showed up with a bunch of other guys...maybe Shadrich and several others looking for Sansa accuse of her being a kingslayer and say they are arresting her and taking her back to King's Landing to face the king's justice. And just like Tyrion got free by having Bronn defeat someone, perhaps Brienne, who enters in the lists in the hopes of getting close to Sansa as a mystery knight, steps up to call for a trial by the seven. That would be a parallel to Dunk as well!

And in the chaotic aftermath, when Brienne (and Bronze Yohn maybe!!) has cleared Sansa's name, something goes awry (maybe Harry dies fighting in the trial, maybe Sweetrobin dies and Sansa tells Brienne she doesn't want to marry Harry), the girls decide to make a run for the Wall, to the only other known relative Sansa has left alive outside of the Tullys - her recently revived bastard brother Jon Snow.

As for gaining her favor...while I'm fairly confident that Brienne saves Sansa and they leave together from the Vale, the state in which Brienne shows up is really up in the air. She's just leaving from whatever the fuck has happened with Lady Stoneheart and Jaime. Maybe she's injured. Maybe she has no money. Maybe she sees Ser Shadrich there and decides she's better off disguised. It could make sense that she enters the tourney in an attempt to see if she can find Sansa in the crowd, spots her, and asks her for her favor. Cue Shadrich accusal, trial by seven, and escape.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Interesting prediction anon, I'd love to hear what other people think.

[butterflies-dragons]

Didn't George said that Brienne is actually descended from Dunk? Not narratively wich she is but by blood.

Brienne of Tarth

The only descendant of Dunk officially confirmed by GRRM is Brienne of Tarth, my favorite candidate to be Sansa’s true knight.

GRRM has stated that readers have met a descendant of Dunk in ASOIAF:

But I did get up the courage to blurt out one small SoIaF query, which was if we’ve met a descendent of Dunk’s in the SoIaF. He said yes. […] I asked GRRM if we’d met one of Dunk’s descendants in the SoIaF, and he said Yes. I didn’t ask him who, because I’d rather find out by reading or reason, only I’m lousy at the reasoning part and want to make you guys do it for me.

He later stated that he gave a strong hint to Dunk’s descendant in A Feast for Crows:

Asked if he’ll ever tell which character is Dunk’s descendent. Got a rather acerbic, “I gave a pretty strong hint in the new book,” to which I sheepishly replied “Yea, but I read it real fast, in three days.” I told him I suspected Brienne but thought that she was too obvious and that he’d be more subtle than that and he said, “You think?” Coy bastard.

Given that in A Feast for Crows, Brienne recalls finding a shield with Dunk’s sigil in the armories of Tarth, it was widely speculated but not confirmed (yet) that she is descended from Duncan the Tall

The arms of Tarth were quartered rose and azure, and bore a yellow sun and crescent moon. But so long as men believed her to be a murderess, Brienne dare not carry them. “Your door reminded me of an old shield I once saw in my father’s armory.” She described the arms as best she could recall them. The woman nodded. “I can paint it straightaway, but the paint will need to dry. Take a room at the Seven Swords, if it please you. I’ll bring the shield to you by morning.” […] The captain’s sister found her in the common room, drinking a cup of milk and honey with three raw eggs mixed in. “You did beautifully,” she said, when the woman showed her the freshly painted shield. It was more a picture than a proper coat of arms, and the sight of it took her back through the long years, to the cool dark of her father’s armory. She remembered how she’d run her fingertips across the cracked and fading paint, over the green leaves of the tree, and along the path of the falling star. —A Feast for Crows - Brienne II

However, in 2016 at Balticon, Martin confirmed Brienne’s descent, stating that the exact relationship between Duncan and Brienne would be “revealed in time.”

At BaltiCon, fan Kristen Reed Treado asked, “Will we ever learn how Brienne descends from Dunk?” GRRM replied, “Eventually. All will be revealed in time.”

Brienne is already Sansa Stark’s sworn sword. She swore her allegiance to Sansa’s mother, Catelyn Stark, and made an oath to find Sansa Stark. Brienne also wields Oathkeeper, a sword made of Ice (House Stark ancestral sword) and a repainted House Lothston (Harrenhal/Sansa’s maternal lineage) shield with the arms of Ser Duncan the Tall (a shooting star above an elm tree on a field with the color of sunset). Brienne commissioned the re-painting of the Lothston shield with Ser Duncan’s arms while being in Duskendale (Jonquil Dark, Dontos Hollard). A full circle enclosed around my favorite candidate to become Sansa’s true knight.

Even before the confirmation by the author, it was clear that Brienne was deeply connected with Dunk and somehow following his steps. You can find more parallels between Brienne and Dunk here and here.

So, if Brienne somehow ends up in the Vale of Arryn in time for the tourney at the Gates of the Moon, mysterious knight style, and enters the lists, competes, wins and crowns Sansa. Or if she somehow interrupts or shortens the tourney and there is a trial involved that she will fight in order to defend Alayne Stone/Sansa Stark, I will be more than pleased. The same if Brienne at some point rescues Sansa from anyone that may hurt, abduct or imprison her. Sansa deserves agency and freedom and good persons around her and Brienne deserves to fulfill her oath and become an appreciated and valued knight.

Sansa, though … I will find her, my lady, Brienne swore to Lady Catelyn’s restless shade. I will never stop looking. I will give up my life if need be, give up my honor, give up all my dreams, but I will find her. —A Feast for Crows - Brienne II

Brienne is a worthy representative of her ancestor Ser Duncan the Tall, both knights that remember their vows. The truest kind.

Finally, it’s worth mentioning that the author has described Brienne as “Sansa with a sword.” This statement confirms that these two characters have an important interrelation.

[queenlorea]

I love how HOTD portrays Rhaenyra and Harwin Strong’s relationship and especially Harwin’s relationship to his kids which is so soft I just,,, incredible acting in bringing this relationship to life onscreen

It also got me thinking about whether there were any parallels between Rhaenyra/Harwin and Dunk/Daella since it’s fan theory that the Tarths in ASOIAF (Brienne and Selwyn) are descended Duncan the Tall and Daella Targaryen after Daella was wed to the Lord of Tarth and Duncan became her sworn shield (which explains why Brienne found Dunk’s old elm-and-shooting-star shield in the armoury).

I’m just spitballing but I’m like,, their (Rhaenyra and Harwin) relationship is so soft and I wish we had more screen time with them and the dynamics and interactions with the kids are so incredibly complicated i love it and because I love the Tarths and the Dunk/Daella theory I just projected this onto them but like yah,, the implications the emotional complexity i live for it

[istumpysk]

Another parallel between the Ashford tourney and the Vale tourney: Dunk was falsely accused of kidnapping a prince and we all know Shadrich is almost certain going to try to kidnap the northen princess. I think he is the third and last anti-Duncan knight in Sansa history together with The Hound and Dontos, hopefully his interference in the Vale tourney will lead Sansa to her true Duncan-like knight: Brienne.

I like the way you think, anon. <3

[swordmaid]

duncan: breathes

me: omg .... brienne breathed as well..... literally parallels .... fate .... etc.

[dyannawynnedayne]

Which Parallel Is Your Favorite? - Semi-finals

Ned and Sansa: art by @sare11aa11eras (1 , 2)

Brienne and Dunk: art by @wodania (1, 2)

SANSA AND NED

SOCIAL ROLE AS MASKING

Bran’s father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. He had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day, and he seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest. He had taken off Father's face, Bran thought, and donned the face of Lord Stark of Winterfell.

AGOT, Bran I

Joffrey frowned. Sansa felt that she ought to say something. What was it that Septa Mordane used to tell her? A lady’s armor is courtesy, that was it. She donned her armor and said, “I’m sorry my lady mother took you captive, my lord.”

ACOK, Sansa I

Dunk and Brienne

The Shield

The old man’s brown had always seemed drab to Dunk. “The field should be the color of sunset,” he said suddenly. “The old man liked sunsets. And the device…”“An elm tree,” said Egg. “A big elm tree, like the one by the pool, with a brown trunk and green branches.”“Yes,” Dunk said. “That would serve. An elm tree…but with a shooting star above. Could you do that?”The girl nodded. “Give me the shield. I’ll paint it this very night and have it back to you on the morrow.”

A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms: The Hedge Knight

 "Your door reminded me of an old shield I once saw in my father’s armory.“ She described the arms as best she could recall them.”[…]“You did beautifully,” she said, when the woman showed her the freshly painted shield. It was more a picture than a proper coat of arms, and the sight of it took her back through the long years, to the cool dark of her father’s armory. She remembered how she’d run her fingertips across the cracked and fading paint, over the green leaves of the tree, and along the path of the falling star.

AFFC, Brienne II