#mel discourse

[eternalera]

we need to talk about mel because out of pretty much everyone in arcane ive been seeing the most drama with her and just... god is it all so fucking stupid. so for the next few paragraphs im gonna be talking about haters of mel, 'defenders' of mel, jayvik, meljayce, and just... everything going on with that because god is it a lot and god is so much of it bullshit and just plain old toxicity. so yeah...

dang still here? alright lets begin.

so first off we're starting with with the haters and defenders of mel and honestly this is some of that dumbest fandom shit ive seen in a while? why? alright let's bring up some argument stuff that ive (and youve most likely) seen before. one of which being that her haters define her as 'problematic' and a villain which is not true well at least not more true than jinx being a villain. jinx is a worse character than mel but people hate on her because 'oh shes supposed to be portrayed as good!' when this was never the case.

in s1 mel was portrayed to be a politician and from what ive gathered she was meant to represent the upper class of piltover and the council members in general (with the exception being heimindinger). she was supposed to be a corrupt and morally ambiguous character just like what? politics, politics are not black or white all of the time. mel strived for her own goals and used people to get there. do you have to like her for this? no. you dont. in fact when i first watched s1 i hated this about her and her relationship with jayce gave me the ick (i did not ship jayvik at all during this time). but we'll get more into that later

now the 'defenders' of mel. where to begin? well first off if you dont like her you get called misogynistic, if you ship jayvik well then youre writing her out and therefore are misogynistic, if you criticize mel for any of her actions guess what you are? yeah misogynistic. they really like throwing that term around for no other reason than mel being a woman. what if she was a guy? would there be a problem with it? and what if people are still doing what they are with mel being a guy? is it still problematic? the answer is most likely no. also the problem with calling people misogynistic is that youre not attacking their argument but them as a person.

thats like if you said '1+1=2' and i went 'no youre stupid' or if i said 'the earth is round' and you told me that i was a conspiracy theorist. youre not attacking the argument but the person themselves. youve done nothing to disprove their argument, sure you called them a mean name but whats that going to do? people hardly ever even argue why thats the case and why its wrong, but they throw around the world mindlessly. i would be fine if people were saying that their argument was misogynistic and therefore they would be misogynistic for supporting it but even then just leave it.

not to mention that mel was written to be morally ambiguous in a sense (in s1 and in s2 she gets better but still is... eh on morals imo) and if you bring this up these 'defenders' will go rabid over you. calling you names and saying how youre 'part of the problem' and that you cant handle a strong female character and this is just by you criticizing them keep in mind. maybe you dont agree with their actions but that doesnt matter to them and its horrendous.

now moving onto jayvik and... yeah it has its issues, i will NOT lie and say that there isnt an unreasonable dislike for mel in certain parts of the community because believe me there is and its almost always uncalled for and their reason is lacking to say the least, once again mel is a complicated character and to put her in a box and say that she's the big bad is entirely and fully unreasonable. ive seen large parts of the fandom also hating on mel just because she 'gets in the way' of jayvik and i guess that this is true but also people do forget something really important

THIS IS ALL FANDOM

SHIP WHOEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT CANON OR NOT ITS NOT MEANT FOR THE CREATORS BUT THE CONSUMERS AKA FANS

whether or not she 'gets in the way' of jayvik in canon (which she really does not as she encourages jayce to spend more time with viktor and viktor and jayce still have a bunch of meaningful scenes together DESPITE her) doesn't matter one bit. your fanon does not need to be canon in order for you to enjoy it. and tons of people tend to gloss past that because they just have to have things their way and then they throw a pissy fit over it. HOWEVER this is not the only drama with jayvik, once again if you ship this rabid mel enjoyers will say how youre misogynistic which... yeah it fucking sucks.

tbh everything with mel has got to be some of the most toxic shit ive ever seen in my life (not worse than mha and ochako but hopefully as a fandom we never get there). because mel enjoyers if they dont ship jayvik tend to ship meljay or jaymel or- whatever its called and since its canon to some extent (they did kinda break up) they will use that as a way to discourage jayvik shippers and once again call them names that do not make any sense to the argument that they are giving as they are just spewing out random ass insults to people who disagree with them

good job internet. proud of ya

NOW MELJAY AND OH BOY DO I HAVE SOME WORDS-

... yeah it was meant to be a morally grey thing. sorry to everyone who looked at it and was like 'omg they care for each other so cute!!!' mel manipulating jayce into a relationship to take advantage of him and get what she wanted is meant to be a bad thing and you wanna know why? CAUSE SHES A COMPLICATED CHARACTER. if i had to place her on the alignment chart id say that shes most likely lawful neutral and on a good day lawful good.

now if you still cant see the problem with mel and jayces relationship lemme do smth called the good 'ol gender swap

theres a smart girl inventing stuff and trying to change the world, a man comes along and supports her endeavor fully, throughout the way makes heavy advances towards her in order to trap her and get her to do what he wants. this happens and in order to trap her even further puts her in a position of power which she knows nothing about and therefore relying more and more on him and his knowledge. advances are made and they fuck but to him she is just an investment. of course as the relationship carries on he might start caring more and more about her but the manipulation never truly leaves

see what makes it so bad? me and my friends talked about this for hours thinking about it and finding out what made us not like the ship in s1 (keep in mind we did NOT ship jayvik only started after their divorce). we loved mel's characters, she's a strong woman a strong character with flaws and she's compelling. but she was never written to do morally good decisions 100% of the time and thats what makes arcane so good ignoring all of this is not understanding mels character or her actions

anyways thats all i have to say. if you disagree or have any other news feel free to share lol and thanks for listening to my rambles <3

[jaguarys]

I find it fascinating (derogatory) how the general fandom conversation has shifted from "this woman is getting in the way of our gay ship and she's USELESS and ANNOYING and WE DON'T LIKE HER!" to this weird "no actually she's just not involved in her own relationships because she's too cool and special and awesome and a girlboss". But the problem is that there's not actually a veritable difference there. People still aren't engaging with her as a fully-fledged character. Like sure man calling her a girlboss is fine it's whatever but let that lead somewhere else. Engage with her. Can you actually name any of her character traits or are you just blindly praising her so that you can focus on shipping the guys in the background without feeling bad about it

[showsandstuff]

I am so conflicted about the drama in the arcane fandom regarding Meljayvik because it's all just so messy.

For one, not everyone likes every ship and that is okay. You don't have to like Meljayce or Jayvik, it's okay to only like one of the two or none at all.

But then there is the disposable black gf trope that makes this whole thing tricky. I hate this trope so damn much, it isn't fair. At all.

But then also Mel is SO MUCH more than Jayces lover in the story, like her romantic relationship with Jayce was a tiny part of her character and their relationship with each other as well. So I don't like the idea of reducing her to just that. Mel's arc this season was all about her other qualities, her intelligence, her power and her relationship to her mother, not about her love for Jayce or whatever.

I absolutely love Mel as a character. She went from someone who I thought would be a cunning villain, to this caring and intelligent leader, who will do whatever she thinks is best for her people.

Yet people always reduce her to "the girl that gets in the way of the Yaoi" or "Jayce’s love interest", like no come on?! She never got in the way of anything and she isn't just Jayce’s girlfriend. She doesn't lose her purpose if people don't like her together with Jayce, because that wasn't even what her arc was about! Free my girl!

[mordenandmerry]

Broke: devaluing the female love interest because she “gets in the way” of a gay ship

Woke: shipping a gay ship so that the female love interest can be gay with me

[proxythe]

sorry im really obsessed with this pair … 🧚 u guys must understand… i have a rare pair addiction …

[lexishoney]

thunderbolts fans will tell you you can't ship boblena, ghostwalker, buckymel and then infantilize one character even though they are like 30, attribute all the war and moral crimes to depressed ex soldier, claim that the character that went through so much development and growth 'isn't ready' to be in a healthy relationship (even though it was this character's thing since forever), attribute certain sexuality to the film adaptation of the character, claiming that this character's sexuality is canon in the comics while reliability of this information is also ambiguous, try to convince you into thinking that 30-year-old-woman is a fresh out of school girl and made up some crazy theories on why the character can't be shipped with the depressed ex soldier mentioned before bcs 'they have big brother-little sister dynamic' and 'she deserves someone better'

[duncanor]

"not liking MelJay is misogynoir"

"caitvi is outshined by Jayvik, this is lesbophobic"

"not shipping Skyvik is sexist"

"Viktor always being hc as trans is sexist and transphobic"

CAN Y'ALL SHUT THE FUCK UP AND STOP MISUSING PROGRESSIVE TERMINOLOGY FOR BASELESS FANDOM BULLSHIT I SWEAR TO GOD-

PLEASE, talk about your blorbo, it's not a popularity contest but if you want people to love your shit you outta talk, write and draw about it.

That's just how it works 😭 you can't throw a fit just because people don't care about the same shit you do.

Please talk more about your love of Mel Medarda! Write those funky lesbians resolving a murder mystery! Do art about Sky, use the little information we have on her and expend on her character! Post meta of your favorite ship! Do propaganda !!!

Please keep creating for your blorbos! KEEP POSTING !

[kinardsevan]

What is your opinion on Tommy coming back or not? And in they case we see him again, do you think it’ll be just for closure (ex: Abby in season 3) or maybe for a BuckTommy second chance?

fun fact: i was considering doing an entire breakdown with a bunch of Oliver's interviews from the start of this arc until now to point to my opinion:

Tommy is coming back. The romcom theme is still in effect, and we're only about midway through the 3rd act.

Long story short (and without sources right now), I think that the interviews were actuallly pointing in this direction with the wording for a hot second. We have OS telling us that he thinks the best relationships have a "will they, won't they" bit where the audience and the characters are pining. We've seen this play out on the show. And we also have to remember that Oli knew during this interview that the breakup was coming. We also have the interview (I believe it was the Decider one I linked last week) where he mentions choosing to fight for the relationship or not. I feel like a lot of people have taken the context of that and twisted it into "they didn't do it right away, so they're not going to". Except, there's ANOTHER quote of relevance, which is Oliver talking about how Buck's queerness isn't tied to Tommy or Eddie, and only to himself.

Obviously, there have been things said since 806 that would point towards me being delulu, except, here's the issue: TM, OS and LFJr are NOT going to tell us that Tommy is coming back if that's the intention. It would spoil the surprise of it all, and the win of it all. What fun is there in that? What TM has said is that Tommy is Buck's romantic past but that doesn't mean he won't turn up again in the future (all relevant and true facts which do not shut down a reconciliation). Lou never out-and-out said he was done with the show. He's said time and time again that he wants to come back. TM has mentioned Tommy coming around again. OS literally said in an interview "they may run into each other on scene and have it be awkward".

Now obviously we don't actually have the full story with how things went down and the show decided to go with splitting the boys up. I think the fact that Lou has called out the bullying but says he wants to come back suggests that it wasn't him saying it was too much. I have two theories that could honestly run concurrent with one another:

Evan and Tommy break up in 806 at the end of the episode. With 911 having 18 episode seasons, this quite literally only makes up the first third of the season. It set up the beginning of the year for us. We're now two episodes into the second part of the season with a pretty clear idea of where the next three will go and suggestions (by fans, nothing official) that the "soonest" we could see LFJr again is 812. This is reasonable, as it would be the end of the middle of the season. Knowing that TM has suggested he might do a multi-episode season finale, pushing LFJr back into the show in 812 (or even the end of 811 if we go with my theory that Eddie could possibly leave around this time and Tommy helps them pack up/his and Buck's first time spending time around each other again), there would still likely be something around this time period that would be around when they would open the doors to this. As it is, we know that 809 and 810 go together, and then we'd have 811 to really flesh out the end of Buck's fling. I think there's even more possibility of LFJr being in this episode as well because if the plan is to bring them back together (which everything has been suggested so far ON screen in terms of keeping Tommy "in" the story), three-episode arc gives us several things: a. it allows the show to make the point that Buck's queerness is not intrinsically attached to Tommy; that his interest in men is as equal as he know his interest in women is. b. it gives them the ability to also show that his feelings for Tommy are not based in Tommy being his "first", or Evan needing to "discover" more about himself. They're in love with each other, and the show has given us the pieces for that. LFJr has acknowledged it in an interview, Tommy loves Buck. We also know that Tommy's line to Evan is "you'd end up breaking my heart, and I don't think I could deal with that". When I hear that sentence, what I'm actually hearing is "I'm already in love with you, and if I let myself fall more in love with you by being with you every day all the time and this ends, I won't survive it". By relation, we have Josh ask Buck if he loves Tommy and Buck waffles, but I think this has more to do with his lack of understanding of what a healthy love is in a relationship, given his past relationships. He never got to tell Abby. Ali left. and saying I love you to Taylor wasn't about the core of actually being in love with her, which I think is another important piece for BuckTommy: they don't just love each other, they're in love with each other. Still, sometimes it's hard to quantify that feeling, and I think (as I've referenced before), for Evan it was easier to ask Tommy to share a living space with him than to share how he feels about him because historically, things haven't worked out well for him when he's been in love outwardly. Further, the questions Josh asks Evan are directly correlated with loving someone, and Evan answers yes to all of them. (I don't think I need to add this, but he also sees a future with Tommy, talks about being engaged or married. He's serious about Tommy in a way he never has been before.)

There's also the theory that the breakup happened because of scheduling conflicts. Now obviously the show could've found other ways to work around LFJr's scheduling issues by having Tommy go on a trip or what-have-you, but let's remember OTHER things that have been said by OS in prior interviews: a. back in June, he did an interview where he stated that he wanted and hoped that BuckTommy would go through issues that couples normally go through in their first year together. He wanted normal issues. This storyline IS normal. b. he didn't want to repeat Tarlos. By the very definition of what the show is doing right now, we're not. Tarlos and BuckTommy are their own things with their own reasonings.

One of the other things I also keep being pulled back to is these issues: first of all, we know how LFJr plays with the 911 demo, given that they got to see it last season. It's why he was written into more episodes after his initial four episode arc and brought back. ABC has also used BuckTommy in their own adverts, which suggests that they are very supportive of the relationship continuing because it draws in viewers. Truly giving that up for good feels like dousing yourself in gasoline and then considering striking a match. Second, people also keep calling out that TM only plans a few weeks in advance. I believe this is true with story beats. We know that the writers room has a general idea on character arcs, thanks to some of the discussion on the cheese page post-806. I really struggle to believe that TM didn't know going into going forward with the breakup whether or not he wanted to bring LFJr back. We know he waffled back and forth on the idea of the breakup, meaning he probably had other solutions on his mind for whatever LFJr's schedule needed adjusting for, and this is what he decided on. Also, even if 8b hasn't been broken down yet (we know it hasn't), they would still know at this point what they do or don't want, what their ideas might be. Solidification for why Tommy should be brought back is directly shown in the reaction by the GA and the fandom to the breakup. They may not know exactly how that reunion happens yet, but what they have suggested is that Buck's new relationship will be short-lived. That he's using it to cope. We also know he's still processing the break-up and still misses Tommy. These are all things that point to the story not being over. Plus, I feel (once again), if the story really was over and they didn't have plans to continue this in 8b, LFJr wouldn't be talking about wanting to go back. It be far more "yeah that sucked, but it's over now and what can you do? I'm off to this new show and I'll never be back." (I've commented also on the fact that the fangirlish interview comment about his "i'm going here, doing this, have some opportunities" statement is very run-of-the-mill. Obvs I could mean something. Or it could literally just be a canned answer.) (This might feel a little off-center, but I think his commentary on trusting TM and knowing what he's doing in one of his post-806 interviews directly suggests that he believes the story is going to be handled properly.)

I realize at the end of the day, all of what I'm piecing together could mean zilch and Tommy could possibly never come back. They could truly just drop the story and never circle back around, set fire to a beautiful arc and lose thousands (possibly millions) of viewers. I've certainly suggested myself being one of them. But I don't see BuckTommy only getting an Abby fix for two reasons. LFJr wants to come back and continue the story, and Connie Britton only ever intended to do one season. Also, the fling has been called out as being planned to be short-lived. Why bother mentioning that if you don't have other plans for the story.

The last thing I'll leave you with is my commentary from the interview Oli and Aisha did with the guy from Chicago. That reporter obviously liked the BuckTommy storyline and said he's choosing to believe that the relationship is paused, not over. By relation, we had Oliver say three things: (1 and 2) Buck is still looking for love, both in himself and with another person. (3)The season is only half over. Circle that back to 806-808. Buck is finding love in himself by dealing with it in a healthy way (so far) with the baking. We've also seen the "cracks" Oli mentioned with his continued urge to want to text Tommy, as well as him fighting it off by baking (referencing the "pendulum swinging"). Looking for love in others will likely be this arc where he tries to deal/move on. I feel like we collectively watched the end of 806, and then 807 and 808 yelling at the TV "you're in love with him, piece it together already!" (or maybe that was just me???). But truly, whether it's a fling, his therapist, or Bobby/Maddie/Eddie who finally spells it out of or him, I think there will be a point at which we see that come to fruition. The seeds were sewn in for it in the scene with Josh. Now it's just about watching those seeds sprout.

Final note: we've had a good run up to this point with these two. Did we truly thing that the honeymoon phase would last forever? (I didn't. Conflict and the pink bubble popping have to happen eventually.) If we really want to suggest that what BuckTommy has is real, they have to go through this and come out the other side. I think everyone is justifiably frustrated due to the 4 month wait on new episodes (I personally would not have left people hanging quite like this, but that's just me), but the narrative does lead us toward what the show is doing with the suggestion that it does have a natural (and good) conclusion. (Possibly with a helicopter/truck/jeep crash?!)

And just as my singularly LAST note, here's my other thing: Evan and Tommy both have abandonment issues. (Tommy's are clear based on the break up and we know Buck's.) By that correlation, when these two finally get back together, they're never going to fucking let the other go.

(This was so much longer than I intended it to be, but that's my answer 😂😂😂😂😂😂)

[beelzeballing]

having your two favorite arcane characters be viktor and mel AND shipping jayvik at the same time is like. on one hand i cannot stop collecting w's but also the whole fandom has it out for me cuz the jayvik shippers hate mel and the mel lovers hate jayvik. why cant we all just hold hands. why must we fight.

[sappho-favorite-pupil-fandoms]

to be clear, as someone that enjoys doing it, there's nothing wrong or inherently demeaning in getting on your knees for your partner as vi does for caitlyn. the issue i see for that sex scene is its context. not only the fact they're in jinx's jail cell (💀), the fact that vi has serious trauma regarding prisons (💀) or that she's clearly not in the right mental state to have sex (💀).

for once, considering everything vi has been through mostly because of caitlyn, and considering the huge power imbalance between them, it would have been nice to see caitlyn doing something for her.

seeing that scene really made me go like "in this relationship is clear who's getting on her knees for who".

[regaliasonata]

I really hate the "Female Character getting bashed in order to prop up the M/M pairing" trend so badly in fandoms.

Most of the time it usually ends up boiling down to misogyny against them and really ruins the enjoyment of those ships.

[fawnocula5]

Listen, I am completely and utterly obsessed with jayvik rn, HOWEVER:

i will not tolerate Mel slander

i will not tolerate Sky slander

if you interpreted their relationship as platonic, good for you, as long as you're not harassing anyone with a different interpretation.

[srslylini]

ok let me turn this shipping discourse stuff on its head. We always see the "shipping is getting destroyed," notion. "By people saying you can't ship those people because this and that"

Yeah but did we pause and think that it's also getting destroyed because people, who ship certain characters, seemingly can't do shipping without acting like it just has to be canon anymore? To the point where they viciously attack anyone who says "uhm actually cool that you ship it, it isn't canon, though"

I promise you, you don't have to find ten thousand unrelated reasons and ways to ship people and you also don't need to make up some weird shit for it to happen. Ship your ship and let others not ship it. Stop fighting over how "canon" it actually is. Especially when it isn't and turns out to not be canon by the end of the media you consume and ship it in.

It just isn't canon, you are also destroying the fandom experience by being a weird little shit about that. That also translates in how the canon relationship then gets hated on/treated. I beg you to ship your ship in peace and leave the other stuff alone.

There is absolutely no need to hate another (canon) ship and act like it sucks (which happens I know ships can suck, but not always, be so for real) or even be misogynistic as a result of this. Just ship your non canon ship in peace and let others do the same.

[ineffablecabbage]

Some of people truly act like this is their first day on Al Gore's internet.

"LANGDON IS MARRIED WITH TWO KIDS. THAT'S A WEIRD SITUATION TO PUT MEL IN."

There is fic on AO3 that has people growing tentacles and inserting eggs into people's assholes. That would be a weird situation to put Mel in. But hey, KINKTOMATO.

Having an addict get a divorce and hook up with his coworker before during afterwards is not a "weird situation" by any means.

If you don't like the ship, block it. You are old enough to complaining about ship preferences on the Internet, you should be old enough to figure out how to do that.

[kinardsevan]

Ngl, I was so optimistic after last episode but the newest OS interview dumped my mood af… do you think there’s still hope for BuckTommy ending up together?

I’m gonna say the same thing I’ve been saying for months: yall gotta stop reading so much into those interviews. Oliver quite literally cannot tell you that a reunion is coming. In terms of storytelling, that would be such a major spoiler that it would defeat the purpose of bothering to tell it at all.

They are so limited on what they can actually say versus what they can’t, and I have also done myself the favor of not reading most of the interviews anyway. The video ones where we can hear context? Sure. Because tone of voice does a LOT for understanding what someone is saying. The only one I watched this week was the one in which Oli stated that Buck has both personal and professional hurdles to overcome in the coming weeks.

Realistically, we’ve just opened the door for bucktommy again. The fight we all so desperately want still needs to happen. They still need to hash things out. They both presented themselves at that bar as having gotten on with their lives just fine, when we know the reality of it (for Buck at least and I’m sure also Tommy) is not the case. Literally one episode previous to this one, he was saying to Eddie that everything was right in his world until he and Tommy broke up.

I will also specify (because I’m assuming this is the interview you’re referring to based on the one quote I’ve seen), where some people are taking his “I don’t know, I don’t think so” as he’s not still in the same place, I read it as, he hasn’t moved on. You can still very much be in the same place emotionally about someone but believe they aren’t coming back to you/that things are over. That doesn’t actually mean that they are.

We know that 814/15 is coming. I know some people are assuming LFJr is only going to be in one of the episodes. I’ve assumed he’s going to be in both, in some form or another. And given the assumption that the story is going to be based on Birds of Prey, my own inclination is to believe that they’re using these episodes as a soft launch of “if we give this character more of a story, will people care?”. We, the bucktommy fandom, have wanted him to stick around for a while now, but from a storytelling standpoint, all TM&Co know is that when they broke up, it upset the fandom and GA alike. In a perfect world with endless money and time, the answer would be just to make more space on the show to tell Tommy’s story. But I think the latter half of this season really has to go to the point of showing their work and being able to go back to the network and say “this is the impact if we give him a bigger role”, regardless of whether RG stays or goes after this season.

Beyond that, I’ve personally questioned if we won’t see some form of (at the very least Maddie) Evan’s people kinda giving Tommy the cold shoulder for how he ended things. I don’t think it’s lost on anyone that Evan isn’t over him, and how much the break up hurt him. But I could very much see the narrative as “you left and hurt him needlessly” without the full context of the fact that while we know they love each other and want a future together, we don’t know that anyone else does because we haven’t seen Evan actually tell anyone about the context of the breakup. I’ve also wondered if we won’t see some version of Maddie seeing Tommy and coming to that conclusion herself, and that softening the edges a little.

Another thing I’ve wondered about, especially as we’re moving into the latter half of the season, is if we aren’t moving towards a version of events where Evan finally tells people he gets to make his own decisions, and maybe even tells the team off a little for checking out on Tommy. They’re all supposed to be his friends, right? And yet we know Eddie stopped calling him. I get the whole “Eddie was busy, had stuff going on” of it all… except we know that Evan wasn’t doing well following the break up and er can infer Tommy wasn’t with his “resisting the urge to call”… and you’re telling me Eddie could send a text? When we know for a fact that even Tommy was thinking about texting Evan, but was likely too scared? It says to me even more that the only time Eddie cares about a friendship is when he can gain something out of it.

Ultimately, I don’t actually know how we get to the reconciliation, but I have zero issue in believing it’s coming. I’ve watched way too many romcoms, procedurals, and second season breakup stories to know how this ends. And it doesn’t end with Tommy walking off our screens single. Yall have to let the story continue to be told. Everyone thought after 806 that these two were dead in the water, and yet Lou was back in 811.

Let it simmer and marinate. We’ll get there.

[sappho-favorite-pupil-fandoms]

Mel, i'm so sorry for what they did to you, you deserved so much better 🥹