#moash/lirin

[basket-of-radiants]

Bribery for @highly-invested. I will draw dumb comics in exchange for discourse. Here's a very serious ship for when you're trying to hook up with your ex-best friend's dad.

[knightsgaydiant]

homophobes don't want us shipping moash/lirin but we must be strong in the face of oppression

[catcas22]

Stormlight responses to "If you kill a murderer..."

Lirin: If you kill a murderer, the number of murderers in the world remains unchanged.

Nale: Incorrect. "Murder" refers to an unlawful killing, and I AM the Law. Therefore I am incapable of being a murderer.

Szeth: No, the surgeon is right. Killing stains the soul. Even killing a murderer. Even killing in defense of your own life. You are irrevocably broken by the act, so you might as well just keep killing, and killing, and killing, and killing...

Kaladin: I... I can't quite articulate why, but I don't think that's right. Any of you.

Dalinar: Why would I kill a murderer? A murderer is just a man who has yet to take the next step on his journey. *watching Taravangian ascend to evil godhood* Any minute now...

Adolin, a Chad and a King: Alright, fine. If I kill a murderer, the number of murderers remains unchanged. But you know what does drop precipitously? The number of future victims! If that makes me a murderer, then so be it.

Jasnah: A noble sentiment, but you misunderstand the problem. It is not a question of ethics, but of mathematics. I killed four murderers on my way here, thus dropping the total number of murderers by three.

Moash: Oh sure, it's cool and badass when she, a royal, does it. But when I kill a murderer who the law was never going to touch...

Shallan: *looks up from counting on her fingers* Jasnah, how do you account for the new alter you create to cope with the guilt? Wouldn't that still put you at an unchanged number of murderers?

Renarin: ... Why are all of your alters murderers?!

[highly-invested]

The stormlight archive has taught me that no matter what happens, people always have the choice to turn around and improve themselves. There is never somebody so far gone or set in their beliefs as to be irredeemable.

The stormlight fandom has taught me the above is true as long as you aren't causing any distress to Kaladin Stormblessed

[spookiest-semic]

My worst (best) cosmere take is if stormlight has already focused so much on redemption and working towards being a better person, Vyre can be redeemed, and I hope he is.

​most all characters tagged actively work to better themselves not despite of past mistakes or to make it better in some way but because they want to be better people

[tenebris-lux]

(CONTENT WARNING: Graphic descriptions of violence and murder, and someone having a mental breakdown. SPOILERS for Oathbringer and Words of Radiance. Also critical of Moash.)

- chapter 86, Oathbringer

Kaladin had a conflict of interest. He ended up sympathizing with everyone here, and it caused him to lock up. His friends were killing his other friends.

I’m seeing Lirin in him here, in his reaction.

Lirin said people grew calluses to help them survive the emotional pain—something Kaladin has a really hard time with. It makes me wonder if Lirin ever had breakdowns before he grew calluses. I’m sure he did; he had to have felt the pain for that part to try to protect itself/him.

I noticed something this time around. Some of this could be compared to Adolin’s scene in chapter 83:

As I’ve said before, Adolin was motivated to kill Sadeas by a mixture of things—revenge was a part of it that he held back, but finally let loose when Sadeas confirmed he would continue to do what he had already done and cause more damage. Mostly, though, it was high emotion. As much as Adolin wanted to kill Sadeas up to then, none of the actual murder was premeditated. Now, he doesn’t regret killing Sadeas, but he’s not completely at ease with himself over it either.

I think it hints that Moash probably also got that sense of fulfillment when he stabbed Elhokar in the eye. Why wouldn’t he? He’d been wanting to kill the guy for so long, and was unlikely to get another chance. Symbolically, it’s happening in the area that’s haunted by a being that causes people to give in to their more primal desires; Moash heard its call before.

But as to that Bridge 4 salute….

Adolin is unsure about his worthiness to bear his father’s glyphs. Moash felt unworthy, but didn’t want to give up the Bridge 4 patch. He thought he should toss the patch in the fire, or even himself, out of guilt. He hung onto it. At this point, I assume he still has it. Since then, he got more and more cynical, condemning himself, condemning humanity, condemning his friends, and decided that his vengeance was worth more than anything else. He still technically had the patch, but he’s given up on Bridge 4 & Kaladin.

Yet he still gave that salute to his ex-friend.

Kaladin was paralyzed by choice. Who does he help? Who can he help?

Moash had a choice when he got there. Vengeance right there … or the opportunity to try again with Bridge 4. Another rare opportunity.

He chose his side earlier and was firmly sticking with it.

So why give the Bridge 4 salute?

I’ve heard arguments like, “I did what you couldn’t do,” or “sign of respect to Kaladin—‘I did what I had to do, you do what you have to do.’”

To me, it just seemed like, “Fuck you.”

He might have some measure of respect for Kaladin in some way in his mind, but he’s been turning his back on everything so far, decided humanity isn’t worth it, his past connections aren’t worth it, he gave no shits about what was going on, except that he wanted to kill that guy, have the satisfaction of stabbing him in the eye. You’d think he didn’t even know Kaladin was there; there was so much chaos happening, he could’ve missed him. Could’ve missed the opportunity.

Nope. He knew he was there. He made his choice about what was more important to him. The same thing that drove him

It mostly feels like “fuck you” to me because it was SO unnecessary. Never mind that he doesn’t care. It doesn’t read the same as when Dalinar and Eshonai saluted each other in The Way of Kings at all; that was a sign of respect.

[worldwithinworld]

Stormlight Archive AU in which the merchant caravan Moash is in travels to Hearthstone not long after Roshone becomes citylord. Little Kal thinks Moash is super cool since he’s from a big city and has traveled a lot. Plus, they are at the same caste level, so there isn’t awkwardness and resentment between them like Kal has with the other Hearthstone kids, and the two of them hit it off. Moash thinks his chance for vengeance has miraculously presented itself. And Lirin and Hesina think they gotta help this poor, angry orphan kid.

[purplebronzeandblue]

“Why would you want to learn to hit other boys with sticks?” Lirin is so chronically based it’s unreal

[basket-of-radiants]

I love your art so so much! When I see it it brightens up my day, thank you for adding 🙏🙏🙏

You add, but have you considered square rooting?

(Ignore my math joke)

Thank you! You are very kind! <3

[knightsgaydiant]

I know they obviously disagree on a lot but I feel like if Moash and Lirin had met while both stoned they would have had the best conversation

[thatboreddrake]

So, do y'all remember a while back I made a post about a Stormlight AU where Kaladin becomes an Edgedancer instead of a Windrunner? So that idea was bouncing around in my head, and @catcas22 and I wanted to put down some bullet points of how this would actually change the story:

Kaladin goes off to study as a surgeon in Kharbranth before Amaram comes recruiting

Roshone drafts Tien, but Lirin elects not to send word to Kaladin, as he fears that Kaladin would quit his training and return if he knew

Kaladin gains a reputation as one of the more promising surgeons in Kharbranth

Eventually, one of his patients gets transferred to Taravingian's secret Diagram project (so they can drain their blood for a Death Rattle)

Kaladin, naturally, wants to stay with them and make sure they recover

He's told to "forget about them and move on to the next patient"

He can't accept that, so he starts digging into where the patients are being transferred to (with the help of an unusually talkative spren)

He is interrupted from his investigations by a request to help heal an important foreign dignitary from a strange form of poison

His path intersects with Jasnah and Shallan while he helps Shallan recover from Kabsal's attempted assassination

Over the course of her recovery, Kaladin confides in Jasnah his worries about Taravingian, and enlists the two of them in helping him get to the bottom of it

The three of them use Jasnah's Soulcasting to break into the underground facility

Kaladin freezes when he realizes what Taravingian has been doing and desperately starts trying to heal the people who are having their blood drawn

Kaladin swears his Second Ideal in attempting to escape Kharbranth with the captives

Kaladin, Jasnah, and Shallan depart for the Shattered Plains with as many of the captives as their ship can carry

Meanwhile, in northern Alethkar:

Tien breaks in battle and tries to run away using Lightweaving (Sanderson has confirmed that Tien was some level of Lightweaver)

Tien is captured, then sold into slavery on the Shattered Plains because Amaram decides he's too much trouble

Without Kaladin there to save him, Amaram is killed by nascent Skybreaker Helaran

Helaran gets word that the Surgebinder in Amaram's army is still at large, and heads for the Shattered Plains

Now, on the Shattered Plains:

Tien ends up in the Bridge Crews on Bridge Four (because you gotta have Bridge Four)

While returning from the greatshell hunt, Bridge Four is sent to help the Kholins return to camp

Adolin strikes up a conversation with Tien, as he reminds him of Renarin in a way

Moash arrives on the bridge crews and decides he's going to organize the crews so that they can have a chance at escaping slavery

Adolin notices that an oddly intelligent windspren with a mischievous streak has begun following him around

His conversation with Tien and the rest of Bridge Four has him realize just how bad the situation is under Sadeas for the bridgemen

While considering what to do, he discovers that Tien died on one of the bridge runs

At the urging of his windspren friend, Adolin defies Dalinar's wishes and takes up dueling again, seeking to gain a chance to challenge Sadeas for the freedom of the Bridge Crews

Dalinar is furious and strips Adolin of Plate and Blade, effectively benching him for the rest of the book

When Dalinar leaves for the Tower with Sadeas, he leaves Adolin behind

Adolin refuses to stand by and takes his personal guards to follow after Dalinar, recruiting an off-duty Bridge Four to help him get there

Moash agrees, as he figures that eluding one lighteyes would be far easier than escaping the whole army

Adolin encounters Sadeas's forces on their way back and orders a double-time march to try and save the Kholinar forces if he can

He arrives at the Tower in time to see the Kholinar forces routed and swears the Second Ideal of the Windrunners in a desperate bid to save his army and his father

Moash rethinks his plan after seeing a lighteyes leap, essentially unarmed, across a canyon to try and save his men

Bridge Four establishes an escape route, but the Kholinar forces are decimated by the Parshendi

Adolin fails to find his father, who has been captured and brought back to Narak by Eshonai

Suddenly finding himself to be highprince of Kholinar, Adolin surrenders his Shardblade, which has begun to scream whenever he touches it, in exchange for the bridge crews's freedom

And that's everything that changes for the Way of Kings! I'll go more into Words of Radiance/Oathbringer later, but that's what I have for now!

[knightsgaydiant]

OH MY!!! It’s like a post specifically for me!!!!

This is such an interesting exploration! This opposition with Kaladin as middle ground is such a great point! (To make a somewhat simplified real-world analog it’s a bit like Lirin is the MLK to Moash’s Malcolm X.)

I do like them both (and voted that) but I do a bit prefer Lirin though I see myself as more of a revolutionary. Like I am not a pacifist at all. Like at all, at all. War is awful, but there are things I would fight for and I believe in non-violence as a strategy, but not the ultimate solution.

But Lirin’s certainty in his convictions and the way he sticks to them, even though they’re not what I believe are just compelling as hell to me. I really respect people (in fiction or real life) that live by their own moral code, even if it isn’t the same as mine.

In all honesty, it may be that I sort of envy Lirin’s convictions. I relate a lot to the way Kaladin was drawn to the spear and fighting growing up. I’m in awe of Lirin’s disinterest in the call of the fight. I think part of why I love Lirin so much is because of the perspective he has to offer Kaladin.

ok so obviously there are 4 opinions you can have about Moash and Lirin.

Like or at least appreciate both of them and the nuances of their narratives (smart, sexy)

Hate them both (protagonist centered morality. fine tbh but not as interesting)

Like Moash and dislike Lirin

Like Lirin and dislike Moash

and I feel like 3 and 4 aren't as common but they almost always indicate the opinion-haver's philosophy.

Lirin and Moash are interesting opposites bc they stand on either side of Kaladin, (important loved ones who failed or betrayed him in some way) trying to convince him that their way is the right way to face injustice. Lirin with pacifism, Moash with violence. And I'm willing to bet that if you have a strong preference, it's for the character that agrees with your philosophy.

[cosmerelists]

Kaladin asks: “Would you still love me if I was a cremling?”

“Would you still love me if I was a worm”  is a meme. But on Roshar, of course, they’d ask the question using cremlings, not worms. So let’s say that Kaladin asked his friends this very important question. How would they reply?

1. Adolin

Adolin: Sure, I don’t see why not!

Adolin: Can I give you a tiny, cremling-sized sword?

Adolin: It’d be pretty cute!

2. Renarin

Renarin: [considering]

Renarin: Yes, I believe so.

Renarin: So long as I knew it was you, I don’t see why my view of you would change.

Adolin: ...now I feel a little bad about my flippant cremling-sword answer.

Renarin: Nah, that would be cute.

3. Shallan

Shallan: Oooh, so you’d be a cremling with human intelligence?

Shallan: I could make you a shalebark habitat, and then have you describe the symbiotic relationship from the cremling perspective!

Shallan: Plus, you could tell me about what tastes good, whether you feel artistic...

Kaladin: I’m not sure I like the glint in your eye...

Shallan: I might love you more.

4. Moash

Moash: “Just a cremling” they’d say. “We can definitely kill him now.”

Moash: But no.

Moash: I know you’d still be unkillable.

Moash: You’d be the most overpowered radiant cremling ever.

Kaladin: Is that a yes, or...?

5. Teft

Teft: Of course, lad. 

Teft: Shouldn’t be too hard to find some way for me to become a cremling too.

Kaladin: Uh...you don’t need to be a cremling in this thought experiment.

Teft: I’m your lieutenant, aren’t I? 

6. Zahel

Zahel: No.

Zahel: Toss you out. Let nature take its course.

Kaladin: You, uh, know it’s still me, right? Just in cremling-shape?

Zahel: I’m sure you’ll figure it out.

7. Rlain

Rlain: Hmmm....yes.

Rlain: In fact, I think I would love you more.

Rlain: You’d finally have a shell!

8. Navani & Dalinar

Navani: Of course we would. I’ll even make you a little glyph board to crawl over to tell me all of your cremling thoughts.

Navani: Perhaps you could write the first book from the cremling perspective.

Navani: Men write now, so all bets are off.

Dalinar: But you are not allowed to call your book The Way of Cremlings. I will not allow it.

Navani: Dalinar, please! The man’s a cremling!

Kaladin: ...I feel like you guys might be making fun of me.

9. Lirin & Hesina

Hesina: You know I would, Kaladin.

Hesina: I’d give you a nice cremling habitat with a nice high rock for you to sit on.

Kaladin: Thanks, mom.

Lirin: At the very least, you’d take care of wounded cremlings, right?

Kaladin: D-Dad?!

Lirin: Gotta do something with your cremling life.

10. Lewshi

Lewshi: I would continue to respect you as a warrior.

Lewshi: However, I do not think we could duel anymore.

Kaladin: You don’t think?

Lewshi: Well, I know not to make assumptions when it comes to you.

11. Rock

Rock: ...

Rock: Tell me this. Are you the delicious type of cremling?

Kaladin: Y-You’d eat me?!

Rock: ...

Rock: Think of the fine stew!

Kaladin: NO

12. Syl

Syl: ...

Syl: ...

Syl: ...

Kaladin: Uh, are you okay, Syl?

Syl: (whispering) Tiny, glowing cremling with a sword!

Syl: S-So cute!

Adolin: That’s what I was saying!

Kaladin: ...

Kaladin: Why did I think this was a good idea?

[supreme-leader-stoat]

Absolutely phenomenal that like 90% of the circumstances that ultimately led to Kaladin becoming a Herald were set up, directly or indirectly, by Moash/Vyre.

Moash tries to assassinate Elhokar, giving Kaladin a crisis of conscience that lets him swear the Third Ideal.

Moash assassinates/imprisons Jezrien for Odium, leaving the Oathpact with an empty space and in need of repair.

Vyre successfully pushes Kal over the edge in Hearthstone, forcing Dalinar's hand to take him off of active duty and forcing him to find a new role in becoming a therapist, which directly sets up his role in treating Szeth and the Heralds.

Vyre kills Teft and tries to get Lirin killed, forcing Kal past his breaking point entirely and forcing Dalinar to intervene to save his life, which also gives Kal the realization he needs to swear the fourth ideal.

About the only things that he didn't have any role in the lead up to were Szeth's past and Taravangian's ascension freeing up Wind to choose Kaladin as her champion.

Storming incredible work there, Voideyes. You were willing to kill a friend to get your revenge, then tried to get him to kill himself to prove that you were right to take the path you did, and the whole thing ended with him becoming immortal. Don't think I could've done a worse job if I tried.

[hahahahawk]

“Some people, like a festering finger or a leg shattered beyond repair, just needed to be removed”

Having wild thoughts about Kaladin’s arc. He has this constant tension between surgeon and soldier, healer and killer. At once he’s determining to go to medical school, but also feeling conviction that sometimes killing someone is the best way to deal with them.

Doubly interesting that this duality is crystallized when Roshone is injured and at Lirin’s mercy. Kaladin is certain that if he were in charge, he would let Roshone die.

Later, when its Moash vs Kaladin over Elhokar, which just a different branch of the Roshone situation, I can imagine the same argument being made—a member of the community who is (morally) beyond repair needs to be removed.

I doubt Kaladin was thinking about this (Lirin/Roshone) moment during the confrontation with Moash, but I wonder what he would say to his younger self if he could. The situation with Moash isn’t quiet a copy of this one—Kal has more compassion for Elhokar that he would ever be able to muster for Roshone—but it’s still two people debating whether a third has the right to keep living.

[kaladinsspear]

Lirin’s pacifism an actual real world philosophy that real people do hold. It is made clear multiple times that Lirin is not weak or cowardly, but his points are valid and need to be addressed. At what point is killing justifiable? At what point is sacrificing the sick, the young, and the elderly acceptable in the name of the glorious revolution? I cannot believe that a left leaning fanbase has decided that pacifism is bad actually and the noble solution to injustice is violence. I’m not saying that I agree with Lirin wholeheartedly, I do think there comes a point when violence is a viable last resort, but to dismiss Lirins objections out of hand or claim that they have no merit is to refuse to engage fully with the problem. It’s killing with your eyes closed.

Moash is what happens when a person is beaten down without hope. Yeah, he’s trying to get Kaladin to kill himself. Leshwi tries to put a spear in Kaladins gut multiple times, but we don’t have a fuck Leshwi group of the fanbase. I don’t see how Moash is worse than any other act killing in war. Every action Moash has taken makes sense given his history and circumstances. Both Kaladin and Dalinar had external support in resisting Odium, but Moash was abandoned by his friends and had to bear Odiums influence alone. No wonder he gave in. Everybody has a breaking point, even Kaladin. Kaladin has reached his breaking point multiple times, but there was always someone there to pull him up. Moash didn’t have that. So yeah, he broke, and now he is being manipulated by the god of hate. It doesn’t make him irredeemable or evil.

Ya know, I think people just lose all sense of nuance when it comes to characters being mean at Kaladin. Lirin has totally valid points. Moash's situation is incredibly tragic. But they were mean at Kaladin so we hate them now sorry