#phantomhive dynamics

[midnight-in-town]

Lately I saw someone saying Lizzy was just a stand-in character while Yana hinted at the real Ciel in the story ? Like she was meant to represent the twin to OC and so she was replaced by RC in the story starting from the blue cult arc, so that OC could confront RC. What do you think ?

Hey Anon. Oh, hell no, is what I think.

Look, I could quote the entire story and demonstrate that our!Ciel has some things to address in his dynamic with Liz and entirely different things to confront real!Ciel about, but I'd rather prove it in one go :

The reason Lizzie's dynamic with our!Ciel is absolutely unique in the story is that both hid their true self from each other, despite being canonically the closest person to one another*, because they were afraid to be rejected by each other.

And the culprit behind this false belief ? It's real!Ciel.

*This was confirmed by Yana talking about Lizzie's feelings during the Campania arc, but also by Bravat within the narrative (in ch122 or 123, depending on if you read the magazine or volume version) mentioning that Lizzie was the one person closest to our!Ciel.

It just so happens that Liz's reveal was during the Campania arc when our!Ciel's was more recently (and has bigger consequences).

So, narratively speaking, real!Ciel's return is meant to be antagonistic to both our!Ciel and Lizzie because :

real!Ciel possibly used to poison our!Ciel and also played a part in the tragedy of 4 years ago, before coming back from the dead and taking everything away from him

real!Ciel triggered (accidentally or on purpose) big insecurity and feminine issues in Lizzie, turning her into a passive girl to fit his standards when her true self is a strong active fighter that our!Ciel respects

(I'm not even mentioning how real!Ciel also antagonizes Edward's character, but this is also super important considering Ed's protectiveness towards Lizzie when it comes to "Ciel" was triggered by Lizzie's self worth issues, which were caused by real!Ciel.)

TL;DR real!Ciel has his own narrative role to play, as an antagonist, to our!Ciel, to Liz and also probably to Edward ; just like our!Ciel has to confront his cousins about his choice to lie 4 years ago, at some point, so they can obviously choose his side.

Yana is not erasing Lizzie any time soon in the story, mark my words.

I hope this answers your question. Have a good day Anon.

[midnight-in-town]

^^^ this.

Some fans tend to demonize Frances because she once called our!Ciel "the spare" (despite probably having held that position for her own brother and our!Ciel's real name not being known), but Yana-sensei definitely went out of her way, more than once, to highlight how different Frances and Ann were and how important that contrast may be for our!Ciel's personal development, amongst other things.

What OP pointed up there is a meaningful example in my opinion, but there are several others and one I enjoy is the idea that our!Ciel may specifically evolve about trauma and revenge, through Frances.

Some other contrasting examples between Ann and Frances are:

Ann had an unrequited love with Vincent, becoming jealous of Rachel over time, whereas Frances probably voluntarily married out of the Phantomhive family (ch 132) (because she wanted to escape the curse their family is burdened with ?).

Ann became an evil noble when our!Ciel came back as the Watchdog, while Frances never directly gets involved with our!Ciel's business.

And, the most obvious : tragedy and sorrow made Ann mad while Frances, who lost the same people dear to her, didn't become crazy with revenge (as far as we could see). One key difference here is probably Frances having a loving husband and supporting kids by her side, while Ann had almost nobody left to help her mourn.

All these differences have me wondering about the recent arcs, most importantly about how truthfully relieved Frances probably was when our!Ciel came back...

...and also, since Ann tried to murder him, how extremely likely it is that Frances will definitely choose to support and help him when, to quote Seb in ch14, "he will overconfidently believe that he cannot lose and that it will be necessary for him to carry himself with humility while striving for his goal". By then, "an adult who will be firm with him is what he'll need".

Additionally, it's interesting how Ann becoming "Jack the Ripper" parallels our!Ciel's path towards revenge : as Soma pointed out, Ciel constantly tries to be alone because he claims he only lives for revenge, but that's actually...

"because he's terrified of being happy". I believe Soma is right and that our!Ciel fears that acknowledging people being there for him will make him want to forget about living for revenge. But our!Ciel can't allow himself to forget, because he has Seb by his side every day, reminding him of their contract. [X][X]

Meanwhile Frances is another Phantomhive, another probable spare might I add !, who also lost both parents and brother, but who seems (?) to be living free of revenge. Since Seb did ask Frances to be our!Ciel's mentor (and Yana mentioned it a few times outside of the narrative as well), ultimately I wonder how that might impact our!Ciel's view of "living for revenge"... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Something to think about !

Lastly, I'd like to mention that the contrast between Frances and Ann also greatly matters for Lizzie's development. Because Ann, who pined for years after Vincent and who eventually became madly jealous, is the one who reinforced real!Ciel's idea that "strong ladies scare men".

On the contrary, it's because Frances insisted on training her daughter, so that Liz would be able to protect herself and her loved ones, that our!Ciel eventually acknowledged and respected Lizzie's true self and strength.

That's why I don't doubt that Liz will not stay heavily torn for long between doing her duty, which is staying by real!Ciel's side (the boy who doesn't care about her and who doesn't know "what she's made of", to quote ch58), and following her heart aka choosing our!Ciel's side (the boy she loves, according to Yana, and the one who knows what she's all about).

TL;DR I don't think it's a coincidence that Ciel's aunts, the only relatives we've ever met in the story, contrast each other on many aspects. If that's not meant to bring more development to him, then what's the point ?

PS: I find it's also funny how differently Frances and Ann acted towards men like Druitt or Seb. xDDD

Sorry for rambling OP, I just love this topic. :)

The juxtaposition between these two scenes with his respective aunts is really something... (ramble under the cut)

There's so much that can be said surrounding the circumstances of both of them, before these separate interactions occurred. ... I have to wonder, if Madam Red were more sincere, and supportive of his choices, if he would have been a little more receptive to her head-pat, concern, and motherly affection... The answer is yes. Aunt Francis praised him for his bravery and support sincerely, and he was receptive to her touch and affection and let him call her 'son', he said nothing about coddling because he didn't perceive it as such. She wants him to continue on his path and to gain strength... He's also happy and grateful that the servants thought of him and put together a birthday party. I'm also paying attention to Sebastian's expressions, as well. And I find it interesting that Madam Red had a conversation with Sebastian and asked him to stay by Our!Ciel's side, after her respective interaction with her nephew... While Francis, prior to her own interaction with Our!Ciel, was ASKED, by Sebastian, to be Our!Ciel's exemplar. A firm role model. Because he doesn't want Our!Ciel to get to arrogant and mistaken in his belief that he can't lose.

[anawkwardlady]

[princeedwivedi]

lost in the darkness the light

[jeroidk]

*The fandom engaging in dadbastian discourse*

*Sebastian's canon reaction to being called "father" by Ciel*:

[mantarayyoon]

So, I never post my fanarts anywhere... BUT A WEEK OR TWO AGO I FINISHED THE LAST CHAPTER (published) OF COATTAILS by @pain-in-the-butler

... and I got inspired to (finally) draw Dadbastian and Ciel in chapter 37, it's a bit different from how the scene goes (They're not sitting on the floor) but I put a lot of love on it ksks

And because this is too much angst for Ciel, I wanted to draw him smiling and what better scene than chapter 29!!! I got heavily inspired on @arkthesilliestandroid take of that scene cuz I love it so much, so yeah this is the other thing

taking photos of traditional art is a nightmare that's why I never post lmaoo

[gearbox-doll]

Sebaciel with unhealthy devotion and possessiveness my beloved

[ikarakie]

ciel, undercover as a peasant boy: my perfect disguise. no one will suspect a thing. i am free to investigate this mystery as i like

sherlock holmes, also fresh on the scene, takes one look at this boy and can smell the aristocracy pouring off him in waves: ??? hello

[fionnalovesanimeboys]

Ciel dear you are literally 13 being royal dog of the Queen and you own big ass mansion and you are still asking that question?

[cemetery-baccanal]

this is it. this is the family dynamic i desperately need to see more of

[nymphkoi]

black butler new chapter spoilers

Me in every single inconvenience

Omfg ciel is sick of his shit i just know he sighed (i love these specific expressions from both of them btw)

LMAOO im crying at BOTH of them just accepting this is sebastian's ex he somehow forgot about??? Plsss

But also can we get serious for a second guys... Like this person knows Sebastian is a demon. Clearly he got this information because he was either informed by Undertaker or he was present in the ritual (though i have no idea undertaker would make him remember sebastian... Though it seems highly likely he can alter memories. Which is like. Uh oh.)

Anyways I need them to realize they are in the lion's den IMMEDIATELY

[midnight-in-town]

Frances Midford : The Mentor, a summary

To follow with my post about fighting against misinformation, here’s a first topic. 

Ciel’s remaining aunt is often viewed by the fandom as a mean lady who doesn’t care, because of a) all the mysteries around the family that Ciel doesn’t know about and b) the use of comic relief in Kuroshitsuji often used to hide some relevant clues, as previously demonstrated in this post. This is actually far from what her character really is about and I intend to demonstrate it now with a (long) recap post. 

I have talked about Frances a lot in the past, about her caring about our!Ciel and about her possibly knowing, like Tanaka, that he was lying about his identity. While the former is undeniably true, the latter is still up for debate. [X][X][X][X] However, with the upcoming adaptation of the Weston arc (probably) in 2024, I don’t want the old discourse to come back, so without further ado...

What Yana has said about Frances’ character

Besides our!Ciel, Frances is the last remaining Phantomhive (not counting real!Ciel as a BD). She’s Vincent’s younger sister, they both have the same parents (that is to say Claudia P and Cedric K. Ros) and she married out of the family (implying that maybe the Phantomhives have distant relatives still alive), becoming Lady Midford. 

According to Yana, Frances takes after their dad while Vincent takes after their mom and the same is true for her kids, meaning Ed takes after her (thus takes after his maternal grandfather) while Liz takes after Alexis. 

As far as her relationship with our!Ciel is concerned, here’s what Yana said in the guidebook : “Frances' strength of character is why Sebastian chose her as a role model Ciel should follow”. Since her relationship with Lizzie is sometimes also viewed negatively, I’d like to add that both in the guidebook and on twitter, Yana said that “Liz thinks her mom is kind and strong so she looks up to her mom as a role model she aspires to become”, hence the similar hair style.

TL;DR Yana’s overall description of Frances is that a) she’s kind and strong which is why b) she’s Lizzie’s role model, as well as the role model Sebastian thinks our!Ciel should follow.

Now that this is established, here’s what the canon story gives us, to illustrate Yana’s words. Spoilers for the entire manga series and long read below the cut.

Frances’ introduction

Frances is introduced in ch14 and, boy, what a generally misunderstood chapter by some parts of the fandom. xDD

Contextually, ch14 is Ciel’s birthday, meaning it is also the anniversary of the massacre of the previous household and Madam Red just died, after trying to kill him. For those who might wonder, the guidebook confirmed that our!Ciel was quite saddened by Ann’s death (obviously), so really, what a fun 13th birthday in perspective. Cue Liz and Frances. 

The comments on her strength aside, Frances’ introduction is otherwise often misread as her nagging being inappropriate but I beg to differ. As mentioned by @akumadeenglish​ and @chibimyumi​, Yana is Japanese author who likes to explore writing tropes in depth. Though it’s also important to remember that, before the curry arc, Yana didn’t know how long the series would run so everything had less intent, because the story was initially supposed to end quickly.

In other words, Frances’ introduction really is initially to be read as the severe mother-in-law (based on Japanese comical stereotypes) coming to check on how he handles his household, which is why Seb is so stressed out when everything goes bonkers. But that’s only the surface. 

Most importantly though, Frances showed up because it is Ciel’s birthday and, as said above, there’s a lot of negative and dreadful memories associated with this day. So...

...let’s change his mind, shall we? 

Phantomhives love games and Frances is a Phantomhive too, the last one besides our!Ciel, so she knows her nephew and chooses an activity she knew he wouldn’t be able to resist. 

Ch14 also introduces two important facts that are still relevant as plot points, especially as far as the Blue Revenge arc is concerned. The first one is that our!Ciel protected Lizzie from that bear, so Frances said she owes him. 

Secondly, as stated by Frances herself, she knows the ropes of the “game” (aka acting as the Watchdog) better than our!Ciel (”you’ve still got a decade to go before you can even think of winning against me”). 

In fact, like our!Ciel with real!Ciel, Frances was probably raised as Vincent’s spare [X][X], but compared to our!Ciel who knew next to nothing about his father’s real job until 3 years ago (at the time of ch14), Frances is an experienced veteran...

And that’s why Seb chose her as a role model for our!Ciel.

Therefore it is my opinion that ch14, despite being written back when Sensei didn’t know how long the series would be published, is still relevant as heck when it comes to Frances’ role in the series, aka acting as a mentor for our!Ciel (and for Lizzie, as Yana also stated). Kuroshitsuji is a slow story though, with a lot of build up and it’s why some fans still fail to see how significant Frances is to the plot and to our!Ciel’s development. 

Campania arc

Liz is the one who comes to ask our!Ciel to come with her whole family (thus introducing Alexis and Edward) on a cruise, but it’s also very important to note that she conveyed that Frances thought that our!Ciel should take time off of work:

This led some of us fans to theorize that maybe Tanaka used to send updates to Frances about our!Ciel’s wellbeing and how he fared as the Watchdog: the timing of the cruise works well with Frances’ remark, considering that the Queen just sent Charles Grey as a merry punishment for Ciel’s deeds during the Circus arc. 

This arc mostly highlights Frances’ bravery and strength : she didn’t hesitate to fight for countless of passengers unrelated to her (something that UT said isn’t very typical of Phantomhives, during Weston)...

More importantly, we finally get into Lizzie’s personal motivations and we indeed have the confirmation that...

...Frances is a big key to Lizzie’s strength, confirming the role model/mentor position that she holds in Lizzie’s eyes. I’d like to also point out that Frances completely trusts in her daughter’s abilities, which highlights a very positive mother/daughter dynamic.

Lizzie’s flashback gives us this very important bit...

...a part that’s unfortunately often overlooked by the fans complaining that Frances is too severe with our!Ciel and Lizzie. This scene however makes way more sense once we find out, after the Weston arc, that Frances lost her mother Claudia (the Watchdog before Vincent) when she was probably about 12 or 13 years old (Vincent being 15 years old then). 

To me, this is a big explanation as to why Frances is as serious about training as she is:

Indeed, she lost at least her mom (and later her brother) so, since her daughter is betrothed to the future Watchdog, she wants Liz to be strong enough to survive. All I see in the former panel is a mother saddened by the burden on her child’s shoulder and desperate to imagine that she will be exposed to a lot of danger as an adult. 

Side point there, but it’s likely there’s a very relevant reason Frances’ only daughter was betrothed to Vincent’s heir when they were young kids. We’ll dive into it later, but I believe the answer is tied to the Phantomhive lineage introduced in ch103. 

Lastly, our!Ciel’s flashback also gave us another important bit to explore...

...which is that our!Ciel directly applies what Frances once told him to his current path for revenge: 

Also note the allusion again to Vincent “losing the game”, creating a parallel with Frances telling our!Ciel in ch14 that “he still has a decade to go before he can even think of winning against her”, because he has a lot to learn from her, especially since even he admits that he knows next to nothing about his own family.

The previous spare teaching the spare. How fitting. :D

Weston arc

Even if Frances only appears in this arc during the cricket game, I think there is a lot to be deduced from it. First, I’ve said it long ago and I’ll say it again: I strongly believe Frances played a part into Vincent’s victory during the first blue miracle.

Mind you, Tanaka basically confirmed that Vincent cheated to win (since he knew what Seb and Ciel were up to) and I could totally see Vincent asking his strong little sister to crossdress in order to destroy the Green team. xDD Besides, she certainly seems uneasy whenever the topic is brought up and she also wasn’t fooled by Ciel’s act when he won, haha!

This is silly, but this shows (imo) that Frances and Vincent had a good sibling dynamic, with Frances supporting her brother as the Watchdog as much as she could, which is heartwarming because this means Frances would have no reason not to support her brother’s sons after his death. 

Tanaka (who, according to Yana, was already in the household taking care of Vincent and Frances as children) and Frances happily dancing together at the end of the tournament also confirms this. Vincent and Frances having a strong sibling bond would also explain why, despite Claudia’s death, Frances would agree to the betrothal between Lizzie and Vincent’s heir (and would keep it that way, even after Vincent’s death).

All that to say, I’m sure the cricket game confirmed to Frances how similar our!Ciel is to Vincent on some aspects (the second blue miracle attests to that), which probably makes him somewhat predictable (and reassuring?) to her.

One thing that I also believe is important is Ed’s mini flashback during the game. On this topic, Yana has said that she couldn’t draw his backstory in detail, so she’ll probably expand on that in the future, which makes me think that there is some foreshadowing in there. 

TBH I think it’s ironic that Ed would consider himself as “ordinary”, considering the whole lineage thing introduced one arc later. xDD But also, if we consider that the tale of Vincent’s first blue miracle is supposed to hint that Vincent and Frances were close as siblings, it’s nice that Ed, who takes after his mom the most, would also have his own flashback about loving and looking up to his sister a lot, despite his small inferiority complex. Considering that Liz sees their mom as her role model though, I guess that means Ed also sees his mom as a role model (though the Campania arc already made that pretty clear). 

During the Weston arc, Frances also managed to surprise Sebastian, both by recognizing him (lol) and by stopping him despite his intent to leave, which is, according to the demon himself, no small feat: 

Like the usual nagging she does towards Seb though, it’s played for laugh, but as introduced in this post, I believe overused comic relief is a way to foreshadow some hints and we’ll dive into it with the next arc. 

Last but not least, during this arc UT commented that our!Ciel was different from his ancestors when he willingly put himself in danger to save Joanne...

...but as presented during the Campania arc, it seems it’s a trait he shares at least with his aunt, furthering the parallels between them and the fact that she would definitely make a good mentor for our!Ciel, because they’re quite alike and can probably understand each other. 

Green Witch arc

The only relevant part of this arc with Frances’ character is the introduction of a special lineage in the Phantomhive family by German Shinigamis...

...something that might explain why our!Ciel was able to notice them, when even Seb didn’t. So this begs the question: who else in his family shares this lineage? And obviously, Frances and her kids might !

My personal opinion is that the lineage thing is old and is probably why the Phantomhive family became the Watchdogs, many generations ago. But also, if our!Ciel can notice Shinigamis thanks to it, could it explain why Frances was able to detect and catch Seb during opening ceremony before the cricket game at Weston? And why she always nags him about his appearance (both hair and face)? That remains to be confirmed, but...

...at the very least Bravat in the recent arc confirmed that some gifted people like himself can “sense” that demons are different. Just like animals [x][x], apparently. Bravat is irrelevant besides being a small scale villain though, so I take it as a hint for a more plot significant character, such as Frances, whose nagging behavior towards Seb is way too overused as comic relief anyway. 

The lineage thing is yet one more family topic on which Frances probably has answers to give to our!Ciel (the only other people who might know about it being Tanaka and UT). 

Bonus : if what Vincent said below about strong-willed women in the family line (from a side story “With Father”) is a hint towards the lineage thing...

...then it’s probably why Vincent wanted Lizzie to be betrothed to his heir in the first place and why Frances agreed. 

Blue sect & blue revenge arcs

I already mentioned that Bravat’s innate ability to recognize Seb as a demon was a hint that other characters, like Frances, might be able to guess that Seb is a demon as well, so moving on to ch151 :

This chapter confirms that UT has known Frances since she was very young (which is a hint to the UT = Cedric theory of course), which also explains why, knowing about her strength, UT went on with the whole BD massacre on the Campania despite the presence of our!Ciel and the Midfords on board. 

Also, while this chapter neither confirms nor denies if Frances knew about our!Ciel lying about his identity (like Tanaka and UT did), she didn’t show anger nor disbelief about the situation, just her incomprehension.  

More than anything, this chapter strongly hints that our!Ciel will at some point seek his aunt for a talk before the final confrontation with UT and real!Ciel, because both are seeking answers to their different questions (our!Ciel needs to find out about UT & his grandmother and the lineage thing, while Frances will want to know what’s the deal between the twins). Speaking of which, a talk between Lizzie and Frances is probably also in order, before Lizzie can choose our!Ciel’s side again.

Lastly, ch151 hinted that Frances doesn’t fully believe that real!Ciel’s return is “natural”...

...and, i mean, why would she? She faced the Bizarre Dolls on the Campania and, for all we know, Edward told her how the Weston arc ended so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ considering that UT has been involved every time, the Midfords probably aren’t far from connecting the dots about real!Ciel being already dead. 

To sum up !

Outside of the narrative, Yana said that Frances was Lizzie’s role model and that Seb also wanted her to be the model our!Ciel should follow. And, in my opinion, the entire series so far (as I tried to present in this post) is slowly building up to that because :

our!Ciel and Frances are very similar: both the spares & both survived their parents’ and brothers’ death 

both saved folks unrelated to them despite being Phantomhives, meaning that they are a bit alike and can understand each other

our!Ciel literally built his path of revenge following the advice Frances told him about how to counterattack an opponent

Again, to understand who targeted his family, our!Ciel needs to find out about his grandmother, about the lineage and about why his dad had to be killed amongst other things. The only people who can answer him are UT, Tanaka and Frances. 

I believe UT and Tanaka are more connected to Claudia, but also both are by real!Ciel’s side for now, making them less accessible for a talk. This leaves Frances for the time being and, as Vincent’s sister and Claudia’s daughter, it seems appropriate that answers would be coming from her. 

Also, in shonen series, usually the hero(es) have a mentor figure who will help them “unlock their potential” through training. Kuroshitsuji is not your usual shonen and I doubt our!Ciel can become better at fighting lmao, but Frances can certainly help him better appreciate the massive scale he’s bound to face when seeking his revenge. Especially if it all goes back to events from 3 generations ago and a worldbuilding full of supernatural elements, as well as a world war he doesn’t entirely comprehend yet. 

Frances acting as a mentor/role model for her own kids also foreshadows that they’ll follow our!Ciel on his journey and, like him, they’ll definitely need her wisdom/knowledge to be able to reach the necessary level for survival by his side.

As to when all that is going to happen, well, I’d say Frances will probably take on a more active role in the plot when, to quote Seb in ch14, "[our!Ciel] will overconfidently believe that he cannot lose and that it will be necessary for him to carry himself with humility while striving for his goal". Because by then, "an adult who will be firm with him is what he'll need". 

If that doesn’t foreshadow the current conflict between the twins, I don’t know what does. xD

Thanks for reading!! As always, let me know if I’ve forgotten anything !

[lana7779]

@blackbutlerfanweek / Day 6: Crossover / Ciel Phantomhive and Xerxes Break (from Pandora Hearts) / manga edit

Took a very famous panel from Pandora Hearts and inserted Ciel with a line he said at some point to someone else, so I thought those two have the same dynamic! 🤗

[astrexx]

[icantdothistodaybruh]

It seems this year I have only two styles with no in-between what so ever, and looking at them in comparison is driving me insane just a lil bit

[dnana-2809-blog]

My Favorite Duo

Feel free to anyone who see their relationship as platonic or romantic.....

Whatever it is no one can deny that they care for each other deeply and have a very special bond to each other....