#pseudo-plutarch

[sarafangirlart]

Chrysippus’s story is already horrific enough and tho Pelops usually curses and goes to war against Laius (rightfully so) there is this one variant where he straight up forgives Laius bc love??? And it’s implied he lets them sleep together???

This is an overlooked and heartbreaking part of real life Pederasty where a father would give his consent to another man to have his son as a “lover”.

[inspofromancientworld]

The Dead Pan and its Ancient Origins

By Unknown author - courtesy of Eton Collegeitem provenance image, Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=5688633

Elizabeth Barrett Browning was an English poet two lived from 1806-1861. She was the first of twelve children and started writing poetry by the age of four, which her mother collected and published. When she was 15, she became chronically ill with intense head and spinal pain, spending the rest of her life on laudanum, and may have developed tuberculosis. She published her first adult collection of poetry when she was 32. She supported abolition and helped reform child labor laws and rivaled Tennyson for poet laureate when Wordsworth died. When she was 36, her writing attracted author Robert Browning and they courted and married in secret because of her father, who did disinherit her after he learned of the marriage. They moved to Italy when she was 38, where she later died. When she was 43, she gave birth to a son, Robert Wiedeman Barrett Browning, nicknamed Pen.

Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=2292318

Pan was the ancient Greek god of the wild, of shepherds with their flocks, impromptu music, and the companion of the nymphs. He is depicted as having the hindquarters, legs, and horns of a goat and the body of a rather hirsute man. Pan seems to go back to the Proto-Indo-European word *Péh₂usōn, which relates to the modern word 'pasture' and to the god Pushan in the Rigveda, who is the god of meetings, marriages, journeys, roads, and the feeding of cattle as well as transferring souls to the other world of death. Pan worship centered around Arcadia, which was an isolated part of Greece, hidden away in the mountains, and without temples, but in groves and caves.

By No machine-readable author provided. Cnyborg assumed (based on copyright claims). - No machine-readable source provided. Own work assumed (based on copyright claims)., Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=30142747

Pseudo-Plutarch wrote in De defectu oraculorum, The Obsolescence of Oracles, that of all the Greek gods, only Pan died. This reportedly was spread by a sailor named Thamus during the reign of Tiberius (14-37 CE), who received the message from a 'divine voice'. The message was received with groans and laments. Some have taken the message that 'all' the Greek gods died due to the pun in Greek.

It is on this that Browning based her poem, beginning with seeking out where the gods of Hellas (Greece) have gone, with a repeated call of 'Pan, Pan is dead.' Through the poem, the chaos that spreads through the world, affecting poets, forests, the stars, and more as a result of Pan (or all gods) being dead, saying '"We all now are desolate—/Now Pan is dead."'

You can read the poem here.

[ilions-end]

all these myths about what happens to odysseus after the events of the odyssey. i've been thinking about the one (referenced by pseudo-apollodorus and plutarch) where odysseus is locked in conflict with the families of the killed suitors (because the divinely decreed conciliation at the end of the odyssey just didn't stick, i guess). they agree to send for neoptolemus (of ALL PEOPLE) to arbitrate, but neoptolemus secretly wants odysseus' estates, so his ruling is that odysseus is banished from ithaca, cephallenia and zacynthus "because of the blood that he had shed there", and also the families must pay odysseus a yearly fee to pay off the damages caused by the suitors. now odysseus has to wander off and father too many sons so they can establish roman cities.

obviously i think this myth is a little silly (as a number of post-odyssey myths are) but i always try to give each variant due thought, because presumably for some ancient people this WAS part of the story of odysseus.

so imagine it as the result of what happens in sophocles' philoctetes: maybe odysseus suggests and lobbies for neoptolemus as arbitrator because he assumes neoptolemus will be deferential, he remembers neoptolemus as he was -- conscientious but realistic, or just plain morally ambiguous and easy to manipulate. maybe neoptolemus' ruling is the direct result of the lesson odysseus taught him on that first, fateful mission: if you want something bad enough, you can't let sentiment or honesty get in the way. maybe there IS some lingering sense of loyalty and respect there, so neoptolemus tells himself that securing odysseus a yearly income makes up for forcing him to flee his home.

remember when philoctetes accused odysseus of forever ruining neoptolemus' moral compass? i think about that a lot

[jeannereames]

hello dr. reames! do we have any idea what kind of reader Alexander was? there's the semi-pervasive idea of the 'philosopher king' and his love for the Iliad is often brought up, but did he actually read and study a lot? do we know what kind of literature he enjoyed? and maybe for fun, what kind of reader would he be if he was given access to our modern books? would he read anything that he gets his hands on or stick to one author/genre that he prefers?

Alexander the Great Bookworm!

This is fun, as I’ve sometimes wondered how he’d react if plopped in the middle of Waterstones in London. Or the New York Public Library. Or the library of the British or American Schools of Classical Studies at Athens (where he could more easily find books in a form of Greek he could read).

He’d go absolutely bonkers.

In a good way.

The “philosopher king” referenced in the question is largely the construct of Plutarch. I’d treat it gingerly, at best. I may return to the concept later, but not here. It is worth noting, however, that he was Aristotle’s student and (as covered below) continued to read at least his teacher’s work. Aristotle was prolific; we have maybe a quarter to a fifth of what he actually wrote, and some of what remains that is attributed to him, he didn’t write (such as the Athenaion Politaia, or Athenian Constitution; it’s “pseudo-Aristotle”).

That said, Alexander as an (extroverted) bookworm is, I think, a solid enough characterization.

Many know the story that he slept with a copy of the Iliad under his pillow. That’s utter nonsense; the Iliad is a multi-scroll work. Nobody could sleep with that under a pillow. It wouldn’t even fit under a pillow. So scrap that story.

But there’s another tale that holds more (historical) weight: after the Battle of Issos, Alexander was shown an especially lovely gold “casket” (box) among the spoils from the Persian king’s royal tent. Asked what it should be used for, he declared that he’d put in it his copy of the Iliad (annotated by Aristotle). Now that sounds like an Alexander-ish thing to do.

Books (or at least that book) were as precious to him as gold.

This is also the fellow who, while touring the ruins of Nineveh on the way to Gaugamela—reportedly to inspect the dikes and other infrastructure, was so charmed by the very idea of Ashurbanipal’s library that he wanted to build his own to hold all known works, in his new, big city of Alexandria. He, of course, didn’t live to see it done, but the concept of a library lived on.*

So yes, Alexander did love to read.

He apparently knew the plays of Euripides by heart (along with chunks of the Iliad), and possibly the poetry at least of Pindar. Occasionally, he sent home requests for new books when he ran out of reading material. (Or had read it all too many times.) While in Egypt, he had to visit the priests in the temples to ask them questions—part of Plutarch’s “philosopher in armor” portrait, but I find it quite probable, nonetheless.

A great deal of debate exists as to what else he may (reliably) have read, given that distribution of published works was limited. But I think that, in addition to what’s mentioned above, it’s all but certain he’d read Herodotus, Isokrates, Plato, and of course, whatever Aristotle was working on. We know, because he reputedly complained that Aristotle had published something he’d thought was “proprietary teaching” from his own schoolboy days. In addition, I strongly suspect he’d also read both Xenophon and Thucydides. Likely also Aeschines, Demosthenes, Lysias, Demades, and Hypereides, etc. A number of now-lost rhetoriticians too. And plays, including quite a few we no longer possess.

In his day, there just wasn’t enough published material to get particular about types or genres, and part of being well-educated then meant being widely read.

Of course, he was also hugely busy. So, by “reading,” in many cases he would have been read TO while doing other things, including traveling. Just like many people today with long commutes listen to audiobooks. We know he was a particularly busy letter-writer…but again, he wasn’t physically writing most of those letters. He had secretaries who took dictation.

Now, as for what he would want to read today… honestly, I can’t be sure. I don’t think we can use modern entrepreneurs as any sort of model. I’ve heard people try to do this: he’d read what top CEOs and Techbros read!

Yet I suspect not. He was an intellectual or wanted to be perceived so. He was also far more creative than the average CEO, tbh.

I think he would have started by reading what else survived from the centuries immediately after him. It would have been most familiar, in terms of approach (not just language) For instance, he’d have wanted to know where philosophy went next, and might have a bit of a love-hate relationship with the stoics—probably more than neoplatonists. He’d read a fair bit of history, I think. Yet he seemed to love drama, so I suspect he’d also have enjoyed plays, poetry, and later Hellenistic novels.

He might find novels, especially anything terribly recent, off-putting—just like modern students often find ancient texts a bit off-putting. Approaches to literature have changed. Dante and Shakespeare, maybe even Dickens, or Tolkien, would appeal to him more than, say, Stephen King or James Patterson, much less J.K. Rowling or Dan Brown. It’s less about genre than approach. What’s told, what’s not told, how much is told, characterization, and the “pacing” of the story.

Non-fiction might interest him more, and everything from history to science and technology, probably some psychology/sociology too.

I don’t think he’d have been very interested in “self-help” books and other, similar “here’s how you do it!” success texts—unlike Techbros. He was an extremely creative thinker and would be just frustrated but such, finding them useless. Supposedly when Aristotle kept asking him how he’d approach X event, he would reply (irritated) that he didn’t know, he’d have to see when it happened. In short, he was not a fan of rubrics or anything like them. While I’m unsure I quite buy the story in its later form, for the man who pulled tactical rabbits out of hats, it doesn’t strike me as unlikely, if probably transposed from something said when he was an adult, back into his school-boy years. (Greeks were fond of the notion ‘The child is father of the man.’)

----------------

* There is some discussion as to whether the library was even his idea or belonged to one of the early Ptolemies. While worth asking, I think the tradition here is correct: it was his brainchild. But like the city itself, he may have had little practical contribution to the final, beyond funds.

[littlesparklight]

If you're like me and sometimes gets strange ideas into your head and want to make little lists, here's the (maybe not exhaustive?) list of the mortal daughters of the gods:

Poseidon Eirene (daughter of Melantheia, daughter of Alpheios) - Plutarch, Quaestiones Graecae 19 Aithousa (daughter of Alkyone) - Bibliotheke 3.110, Pausanias 9.20.1 Evadne (daughter of Pitane) - Pindar, Olympian 6 Lamia - Pausanias, Description, 10. 12. 2

Zeus Helen (daughter of Leda) - lots of sources [Hierophile (daughter of Lamia) - Pausanias, Description 10.12.1 Keroessa (daughter of Io) - several post-0 sources] -I've put both Hierophile and Keroessa within square brackets because I'm half discounting them. Keroessa more so, considering her very late sources. Helen as Zeus' (only) mortal daughter has more relevance and is more weighted, I think, even if more than one source mentions Zeus' love of Lamia. Of course, one could keep that and discount Hierophile herself as a daughter of Zeus.

Apollo Hilaeira and Phoibe (otherwise daughters of Leukippus) - Kypria, via Pausanias, 3. 16. 1 Eriopis (daughter of Arsinoe, daughter of Leukippus) - Ehoiai 63; Scholia ad Pindar, Pythian Ode 3.14 Melite (otherwise daughter of Myrmex) - Harpocration, possibly Hesiod Parthenos (daughter of Chrysothemis) - Pseudo-Hyginus, Astronomica 2. 25 Phemonoe - Pliny the Elder [Eurynome (daughter of Iphthius and mother of Adrastus)??? Pamphile???] -The square brackets here are because Wikipedia only listed sources to myth compendiums of 1800-1900's, and so I have no idea what actual ancient sources make these women daughters of Apollo. (The Leukippides are most usually daughters of Leukippos, but I've included them here for completeness' sake.)

Ares Alkippe (daughter of Agraulos) - Bibliotheke 3.180 Amazons in general/unknown number of general Amazons - Apollonius Rhodius, Argonautica 2.989 Hippolyte, Antiope, Penthesilea[, Melanippe] (daughters of Otrera) - Bibliotheke 2.98+Epitome5.1, Hyginus, Fabulae 30, 112, 223, 241, Aethiopis Thrassa (daughter of Tereine, daughter of Strymon) - Antoninus Liberalis, Metamorphoses 21

Dionysos Deianira (daughter of Althaia) - Bibliotheke, 1.64, Hyginus Fabulae 129

I rather expected Ares and Apollo to be at the top of this list. Ares in particular, even if we have only a small number of individual Amazons named as his daughters by a specific woman. But Apollonius' Argonautica is pretty clear and he must absolutely in general have fathered more than just a handful of daughters especially in the beginning, to "make" any Amazons worthy of a name as a people at all. I was surprised at the number of daughters Poseidon could have, honestly! Didn't expect that. But as we can see, the number of women here is very low - the absolute vast majority of demigods are sons, not daughters.

[amostcuriousmythicist]

After the sack of Troy Diomedes was cast up on the Libyan coast where Lycus was king, whose custom it was to sacrifice strangers to his father Ares. But Callirrhoe, the king's daughter, fell in love with Diomedes and betrayed her father : loosing Diomedes from his bonds, she saved him. But he, without regard for his benefactor, sailed away, and she ended her life with a halter. So Juba in the third book of his Libyan History.

Pseudo Plutarch, Parallela Minora 23

[babyrdie]

I am impressed with your ability to get really excited about talking about Theseus sometimes because I hadn't really considered that he was the kind of character you'd like so it was a funny discovery!

Just to know how many sources you can list about him…say 10 good things he did!

Feeling stupid (again lol) because I didn't notice this ask was here...and it's been a while since I closed the asks, which means this is here before this. Seriously, sorry for not noticing!!! But, well, anon, this is still easy as taking candy from a baby. Theseus is very well attested in the sources, consequently, just as it is quite easy to find negative things about him, it is quite easy to find positive attitudes. In fact, I'm going to offer even more than that. The myths aren’t in any particular order, they’re simply numbered so that it is easy to notice how many I have already cited. Also, the sources aren’t exhaustive...that is, I didn’t use all the sources that point to the information here, just enough to make it clear that I am not making stuff up.

➤ THE JOURNEY FROM TROEZEN TO ATHENS: Along the journey Theseus made from Troezen (the place where he was born and raised, the kingdom of which Aethra, his mother, was princess) to Athens (the kingdom of his mortal father Aegeus), Theseus got rid bandits (Periphetes, Sinis, Sciron, Cercyon, Procrustes) and a wild boar (Phaea), all of which were causing trouble for the people in the region. SOURCES: Pseudo-Apollodorus’ Library 3.16.1-2; Diodorus Siculus’ Library of History 4.59.2-5; Fabulae § 38; Bacchylides’ Theseus; Pausanias’ Description of Greece 2.1.3-4; Plutarch’s Life of Theseus 8-11; Strabo’s Geography 9.1.4; Isocrates’ Helen 29; Plutarch’s Comparison of Theseus and Romulus 1.2; probably Aeschylus’ Cercyon (lost); Sophocles’ Theseus (lost) and also the Sophocles’ frag 905.

➤ DEALING WITH THE CRETAN/MARATHONIAN BULL: After the demigod of Zeus Heracles brought the Cretan Bull to the Peloponnese as one of his labors, the animal began causing trouble in Marathon with his violent temper. Theseus volunteered to deal with the problem or was sent to do it by Aegeus, who was manipulated by his wife Medea. Not only that, but the bull was also sacrificed, as it should have been from the beginning. Depending on the source, such as Plutarch, the sacrifice is explicitly performed by Theseus. It could be said that Theseus was actually cleaning up Minos' mess. SOURCES: Diodorus Siculus’ Library of History 4.59.6; Fabulae 38; Pausanias’ Description of Greece 1.27.9-10 and 3.18.11 and 3.18.16; Plutarch’s Life of Theseus 14.1-3; Pseudo-Apollodorus’ Library E.1.5; Callimachus’ Hecale (lost).

➤ XENIA FOLLOWER: According to some accounts, on the way to deal with the Bull of Marathon/Cretan Bull, Theseus received hospitality from an elderly woman named Hecale. After the mission, he returned to see her again and discovered that she was dead. Wanting to honor the kindness she had shown him, he granted honors upon her in the cult of Zeus, a deity strongly associated with xenia, a law that Hecale followed perfectly. The Callimachus fragments, in particular, indicate a very friendly and respectful conversation between the two while Theseus was his guest, implying that not only was Hecale a good hostess but Theseus was also a good guest, making them both people who honor xenia. In fragment 235, for example, he shows sympathy for Hecale by being kind to him and feels sorry for the idea of ​​an elderly woman living in such a seemingly lonely life. SOURCES: Callimachus’ Hecale (lost); Plutarch’s Life of Theseus 14.2.

➤ ALTRUISTIC SACRIFICE: Depending on the version of the myth, Theseus volunteered to sacrifice himself to the Minotaur. He didn't have to do this, especially since he was a prince, but he did it because he wanted to save the Athenians. In one version told by Plutarch, the Athenians he was sacrificing himself for didn't even like him because they saw him as a foreigner, since he was born and raised in Troezen. And yet, feeling that he needed to prove to the citizens that he was worthy of ruling them rather than simply stating "it's my rightful right", Theseus did what was necessary to earn the power. SOURCES: Fabulae 41; Plutarch’s Life of Theseus 17.1-2; Isocrates’ Helen 27-28; Pseudo-Apollodorus’ Library E.1.7; Iliadic scholia 18.590.

➤ IN DEFENSE OF PERIBOEA/ERIBOEA: In one version, while Minos was taking the young to Crete, he attempted to rape a girl named Periboea, but she screamed and Theseus protected her despite already knowing of Minos's power and how Zeus favored him as his father. As a result, Minos's anger was directed at Theseus, as he felt his authority was being questioned. This event is part of the myth in which Minos challenges Theseus to prove that he is the son of Poseidon, which Theseus does. Periboea is also the future mother of Big Ajax, and some sources such as Athenaeus and Plutarch clarify that she was Theseus's lover, I imagine probably sometime after she was saved. Both authors specifically say that they were married, although I know of no surviving source that justifies a possible divorce considering that both characters later marry other people, namely the king of Salamis Telamon and the Cretan princess Phaedra. SOURCES: Bacchylides’ Youths; Astronomica 2.5.3; Pausanias’ Description of Greece 1.17.3 and 1.42.2; Plutarch’s Life of Theseus 29.1.

➤ RELATIONSHIP WITH MINOS: In a version told by Pausanias, Theseus tried to talk to Minos, explaining what really happened to Androgeus, Minos' son, which, in some sources such as Pseudo-Apollodorus, is the justification for Minos' hatred for Athens, since the Cretan king blamed the Athenians for the loss of his dead son, even in the versions where what happened was an accident. In a version told by Athenaeus, who was repeating Zenis, Theseus managed to win Minos' affection, which is why Minos put aside his enmity with Athens and allowed Theseus' legal marriage to his daughter, Phaedra. In other words, the end of Minos' tyranny isn’t always achieved only through violence. Although it’s important to note that, in the case of Athenaeus, he seemed to be referring to a pederastic situation due to the context of the text, although it is never made clear whether Theseus reciprocated Minos in any way or if there was any physical involvement. And just for the sake of completeness, in a rationalized version retold by Plutarch (who is quoting Philochorus), the Minotaur was actually a man named Taurus, and when Theseus defeated him in the funeral games, both Ariadne and Minos were in awe, and that was the reason Minos accepted a peaceful agreement. SOURCES: Pausanias’ Description of Greece 1.1.2; Athenaeus of Naucratis’ The Deipnosophistae 13.77; Plutarch’s Life of Theseus 19.1-3.

➤ SURVIVORS: The focus on how Theseus freed the Athenians from Cretan oppression is usually on his killing of the Minotaur, but another detail that some sources emphasize is that he not only killed the Minotaur, but also saved the other young Athenians who were given as tribute. Depending on the source, it’s even emphasized that these survivors formed colonies. According to the scholia of The Iliad 18.590 and visual representation on the François Vase (see here), Theseus and the survivors danced together after the liberation symbolized by the death of the Minotaur. SOURCES: Strabo’s Geography 6.3.6 and 10.4.6; Plutarch’s Life of Theseus 23.1.

➤ LOSING ARIADNE: In the version of the myth in which Ariadne is kidnapped by Dionysus, Theseus mourned her all the way back. This indicates that in this version he cared for her greatly, to the point that his mind was so broken that it made him forget the promise he made to his father Aegeus. In this case, he forget because he was depressed. SOURCES: Pseudo-Apollodorus’ Library E.1.8-10; Diodorus Siculus’ Library of History 4.61.5-6; Philostratus’ 1.15; Pausanias’ Description of Greece 10.29.4.

➤ LOSING ARIADNE 2: This is a continuation of the previous topic (item 8) because I’m uncertain whether it is possible to combine the version in which Dionysus kidnaps Ariadne with the one attested by visual representations (examples:1, 2, 3, 4) in which Athena/Hermes appears to make Theseus abandon Ariadne. But I suppose that if he mourned in the abduction version, it wouldn't be strange if the mourning part was reflected in this one as well. There is also another version, in Plutarch's Life of Theseus 19.3-4, in which Ariadne was abandoned on the island accidentally because a storm blew the ship (Theseus was on it) away while Ariadne was on the island (she went to the island because she was seasick, since she was pregnant). He returned, but Ariadne had died in childbirth before she even saw the baby (she was helped by the women of the island). In this version, to honor her, Theseus made Ariadne a cult figure. Finally, still on the topic of the versions in which Theseus didn’t abandon her, The Odyssey says that she had to be left on Naxos at the wish of Dionysus, who for some reason wanted her dead and Artemis killed Ariadne for him. This version doesn’t appear in texts other than The Odyssey and the Byzantine Homeric scholia, which apparently interpreted the motivation for the death as being that Naxos/Dia had a sacred place for Dionysus and that place was dishonored by the couple having sex, as far as I know, 

➤ SON-FATHER RELATIONSHIP: Theseus is consistently portrayed as having a positive relationship with Aegeus. For example: in Callimachus’ Hecale frag 260 he immediately wishes Aegeus to be notified of his victory over the Marathonian Bull, claiming to ease his father’s worry; many ceramics depict/possibly depict Theseus saying goodbye to Aegeus before a mission (see H.A. Shapiro’s “Comings and Goings: The Iconography of Departure and Arrival on Attic Vases” for an analysis of this type of visual representation). Upon learning that Aegeus committed suicide because he believed Theseus to be dead (because of the sails on the ship); Theseus bestowed Aegeus with honors upon learning of his death, as noted in Plutarch's Life of Theseus 22. Overall, Aegeus seemed to view his son as something of a blessing, since Aegeus had been sterile until Theseus' birth and Theseus' arrival in Athens was a relief to him (for the father-son reunion, check out the sources about Medea trying to get Aegeus to poison Theseus, but failing because Aegeus recognizes the symbols Theseus carries). Judging his son dead, Aegeus committed suicide (attested in several sources), and Theseus, upon returning to what should have been happy news, immediately fell into mourning. It was a truly touching relationship, in my opinion.

➤ CENTAUROMACHY: Theseus attended the wedding of Pirithous and Hippodamia (the name varies depending on the source, but I'm using Hippodamia here), and when the drunken centaurs attacked the guests, Theseus fought them. This is a very famous episode, so rather than provide a long list of sources, suffice it to say that this event is well known as the "Centauromachy" and that by researching this term you will find a lot of literary and visual sources representing Theseus' presence. It’s a really old myth, as Nestor already mentions the episode in Book 1 of The Iliad and the Shield of Heracles (attributed to Hesiod) narrates the scene including Theseus. The Greek hero's confrontations with wild and drunken centaurs and the subsequent defeat of the centaurs are often symbolically perceived as being related to civilization. Therefore, Theseus, as the Athenian national hero, having such a strong presence in such a myth has an obvious symbolism.

➤ DEFENDING OEDIPUS: Depending on the source, Theseus receives Oedipus and Antigone on Athenian land and protects them when Creon comes after them because of the prophecy that the place where Oedipus dies will be blessed with an advantage in war. In Sophocles' play, when speaking to Oedipus, Theseus justifies his attitude by saying that he himself was once an exile and, therefore, wouldn’t judge Oedipus for being in exile. He also cares about what the people think and, seeing that they’re willing to welcome Oedipus, Theseus sees no reason to reject him. SOURCES: Sophocles’ Oedipus at Colonus’ 551-569 and 631-667 and 886-1780; Pseudo-Apollodorus’ Library 3.5.9; Pausanias’ Description of Greece 1.28.7.

➤ RESCUING ARGIVES BODIES: After the end of the war between Thebes (Eteocles' side) and Argos (Polynices' side), Theseus intervened to recover the bodies of the dead Argives so that the grieving mothers could perform the necessary funeral rites. Depending on the source, such as Euripides, it’s further stated that Theseus does so only after obtaining the approval of his people to intervene in a war that theoretically doesn’t concern them. It’s notable that Theseus attempts to do this peacefully through a truce, something that Plutarch points out that he succeeds in most versions, although in Euripides' famous version, when his offer is refused by Creon, he decides that it is justifiable to start a battle in order to recover the bodies. Pausanias justifies the difference between the version in which the truce is successful and the one in which a battle is necessary as the former version being that told by the Thebans, who according to him claim that the bodies were returned voluntarily upon request without the need for Theseus to use the army. In a more unusual version of Lysias, the Athenians (ruled by Theseus) intervened without Adrastus having to make the request because upon learning of what had happened they disapproved of the Theban behavior of refusing to honor the dead. SOURCES: Euripides’ The Suppliants (the entire play), Plutarch’s Life of Theseus 29-3, Isocrates’ Helen 31, Pausanias’ Description of Greece 1.39.2, Pseudo-Apollodorus’ Library 3.7.1, Lysias’ Funeral Oration 2.7; Isocrates’ Panathenaicus 169-171; Aeschylus’s The Men of Eleusis (lost, possibly fragments in edition: 25A, 178, 199, 200, 214, 215, 241).

➤ LOYALTY TO HERACLES: Even after Heracles' reputation was severely damaged because he was known for going mad and violently killing his family, Theseus still believed in him and supported him, believing that since Heracles had proven himself to be a good and loyal friend, it was only fair that he should reciprocate. Not only did Theseus believe in Heracles, but he offered him a place in Athens, despite knowing of the other hero's current bad reputation. In Euripides' play, Theseus' attitude also seems to be built on self-awareness, since Heracles had just rescued Theseus from the punishment in the Underworld, which was imposed on him for committing hubris, and therefore it would have been hypocritical for Theseus to judge Heracles when Heracles hadn’t judged him. Plutarch says that Theseus, grateful for Heracles' help, honored him: "All the sacred precincts which the city had previously set apart for himself, he now dedicated to Heracles, and called them Heracleia instead of Theseia, four only excepted, as Philochorus writes" (trans. Bernadotte Perrin). I’m mentioning only this episode, but the friendship of Heracles and Theseus is quite well attested, from Plutarch writing that the young Theseus admired Heracles and used him as inspiration (6.6-7, 8.1, 11.1, 25.4, 29.3-5) to Theseus being present at Heracles' mission against the Amazons because of Hippolyta's girdle (various sources). Also, the friendship between the two heroes seems to extend to their children, considering that in Euripides' Heraclidae Theseus' son Demophon is an ally of Heracles' sons. SOURCES: Euripides’ Heracles 1178-1404; Plutarch’s Life of Theseus 35; Euripides’ Heraclidae 202-231.

➤ LYRE SKILLS: It’s mentioned that Theseus was skilled in playing the lyre. SOURCES: Astronomica 2.6.3; Pausanias’ Description of Greece 5.19.1.

➤ WRESTLING SKILLS: Theseus was a good wrestler. One of the first times this is emphasized is in the myth of Cercyon (mentioned in item 1), but it also appears in other myths. Pausanias, for example, credits Theseus with teaching wrestling to the people, emphasizing that Theseus had skill when before him people relied on physical characteristics such as strength and size. This is also present in the rationalized version told by Plutarch in which the Minotaur is actually a man named Taurus, since Taurus was defeated by Theseus in the wrestling competition. This skill is also present in visual representations of Theseus, including in the duel against Minotaur (I got this information from an article by Alex Matsangou called "The Social and Political Significance of Theseus the Pankratiast: An Exploration of Form and Function in the Parthenon Centauromachy" that I quickly checked out months ago. I didn't read it all because I was looking for something specific, but what I saw was enough to indicate that the association of wrestling and Theseus was indeed something). SOURCES: Pausanias’ Description of Greece 1.39.3 and 4.32.1; Pseudo-Apollodorus’ Library E.1.3; Plutarch’s Life of Theseus 19.3.

➤ PIOUS BEHAVIOR: He was generally portrayed as being pious. I already have a post listing some sources that indicate this (see here), but I will also emphasize that in two of these sources he doesn't even mind playing effeminate roles for the cults of Dionysus and Apollo, in several of these sources he plays a role as founder of cult habits and in a considerable amount he awaits divine advice to make a decision.

➤ GOOD GOVERNMENT DECISIONS: Theseus tends to be written as generally (not always) being good king for the Athenians. Even when the focus of the play isn’t Theseus and he is a secondary character, he is often shown not to make decisions as king without first consulting the Athenians' opinions. Furthermore, as a national hero, Theseus has been credited with bringing about the democratization of Athens, the creation of important festivals and games and other political and economic aspects such as political alliances, the use of specific currencies and the unification of the Athenian territory. SOURCES: Diodorus Siculus’ Library of History 4.61.9 ; Euripides’ The Suppliants 399-564; Pausanias’ Description of Greece 1.3.3 and 8.2.1; Plutarch’s Life of Theseus 24-25; Strabo’s Geography 9.1.20; Demosthenes’ The Funeral Speech 28; Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War 2.15.2.

➤ BONUS [AGE]: You know the whole thing about the bandits on the way from Troezen to Athens, the capture of the Cretan Bull, the killing of the Minotaur and saving the Athenians, the assumption of the throne after Aegeus' death, the first implementation of public policies, etc? You see, he did all this while being ridiculously YOUNG. Pausanias, in Description of Greece 1.27.8, informs us that Theseus was 16 years old when he left Troezen after raising the stone in which the symbols of Aegeus were hidden (which started the myths discussed in item 1 of the list). A Greek vase about the myth I mentioned in item 5 depicts Theseus in a similar way to how boys like Ganymede and Tithonus are depicted, emphasizing his youth (see here). Furthermore, the sources emphasize how the sacrifices HAD to be young people, and Theseus being one of them only indicates how he was a teenager at the time. In fact, some texts in Greek even use words that clearly indicate young age to designate the 14 youths, among whom Theseus was included, for example “παῖς” in Isocrates’ Helen 10.27. This isn’t exactly a positive point of the character, but I think it makes his achievements even greater, so it is a bonus.

So here it is! I feel like I’m kind of playing devil's advocate in this ask because I know this character is kind of hated here lol. Anyway, you asked me to list 10 positive points, but here are some more points. I'm sorry it took me so long, by the way! Part of the reason I took so long to answer is that, even though I knew what those positive points were, I preferred to provide sources so it would be clear that this isn’t headcanon or my interpretation, it's just what is written in the sources. I also want to emphasize that I have added sources I remember...sources I have read but don't remember, or sources I haven't read aren’t included. And Theseus has MANY surviving literary sources...so there is certainly more to it than what has been said here. He is also extensively attested in visual sources, especially Athenian ones, so yes...you will probably find even more in articles dealing with vase interpretation and the like.

It’s also quite easy to find negative myths about him, however. Theseus is very complex, in this sense. So some examples that counterpoint the positive points listed here are: in the case of the myths of the bandits from Troezen to Athens, there are versions in which in the process of defeating them he harms the families of these people (family members who had no involvement with the crimes committed by these men, I mean); in the case of Ariadne, there are a lot of sources in which he willing abandons her (the motivation varies, from already being in love with another woman to fear of public reaction) and the forgetting to change the colors of the candles has no relation to mourning for Ariadne; despite being mostly pious, Theseus offended the gods when he tried to kidnap Persephone for his friend Pirithous (whose friendship I didn't emphasize as a positive point like I did with Heracles because... honestly, I consider it a negative point lol don't get me wrong, I love their friendship, but the two of them together seem to almost never do anything approvable); despite being mostly a good king during the early and middle time of his reign, some sources point out that his reign ended up getting more and more fragile over time as Theseus became more and more reckless and selfish (this part encompasses several aspects of him, like the thing with Hippolyta/Antiope and Helen. And note that, in the case of Hippolyta/Antiope, even in the version where the two are genuinely a couple and there is consent from both, the behavior is still quite questionable because he didn't consider the political consequences); although his relationship with Aegeus is positive, Aegeus' death is indirectly Theseus' fault even though he obviously didn’t want it and his recklessness in the joint plan with Pirithous led to his mother Aethra being enslaved by the Dioscuri and Helen (again, Theseus obviously didn't want this and later Theseus's sons rescue her from slavery...but well, he could have cared more about how the consequences might affect her). Therefore, I find him interesting precisely because he has this non-linear development, which I find quite human. I think he's much more than just an idiot, he really deserves more attention.

Anyway, thanks for the ask!

[valend]

"Aeschines counterattacked by claiming that Timarchus had forfeited the right to speak before the people as a consequence of youthful debauches which had left him with the reputation of being a whore and prostituting himself to many men in the port city of Piraeus. The suit succeeded and Timarchus was sentenced to atimia and politically destroyed, according to Demosthenes. This comment was later interpreted by Pseudo-Plutarch in his Lives of the Ten Orators as meaning that Timarchos hanged himself upon leaving the assembly, a suggestion contested by some modern historians."

PIRAIAS MENTIONED 🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣

[garland-on-thy-brow]

Julia/Agrippina/Clytemnestra/Octavia

Linking the post by @en-theos that talks about Clytemnestra's convoluted/quasi-incestuous family relationships in Aeschylus' Agamemnon. Excerpt: "agamemnon's actual wife is waiting for them in the traditional place of the mother of the groom, making her the mother-in-law of cassandra, who also bears a strong comparison to iphigeneia, clytaemnestra's actual daughter".

I am linking it because I think it is interesting to talk in this context about the ghost of Julia in the Pharsalia.

Quoting Jane Wilson Joyce's translation of Pharsalia III.20-27:

"When I was your wife, Magnus, you led joyful Triumphs: your fortunes have changed with your bedfellow! Condemned by Fate always to drag her powerful husbands down to disaster, your whore Cornelia wed you while my ashes were warm. She can stick close to your standards in war or at sea, so long as I have the right to break in on your not- untroubled dreams and to leave you no time for lovemaking - no! let Caesar lay claim to your days and Julia your nights!

(1) Julia is Pompey's wife, but most of all she embodies the dynasty established by Pompey's father-in-law, and positions herself as a direct parallel to that father-in-law ("let Caesar claim your days and Julia your nights"). Cf. Angeline Chiu, The Importance of Being Julia: Civil War, Historical Revision and the Mutable Past in Lucan's Pharsalia.

(2) Notably, Pompey, by the time of civil war, practically monopolized Agamemnon as part of his "public image". Cf. Edward Champlin, Agamemnon at Rome: Roman Dynasts and Greek Heroes.

(3) Consider also the age difference between Pompey and Cornelia: "the marriage was displeasing to some on account of the disparity in years; for Cornelia's youth made her a fitter match for a son of Pompey" (Plutarch Pompey 55, via LacusCurtius.)

(4) "a nightmare image / appeared - a ghastly head upreared through gaping earth, / and Julia stood, Fury-like, on her blazing pyre" (Pharsalia III.9-11, trans. Wilson Joyce). The vengeful ghost of a Julian lady associated with the Furies of course brings to mind the ghost of Agrippina tormenting Nero: Agrippina was, according to Nero, Clytemnestra to his Orestes - the terms Nero himself established and cultivated. Cf. again Champin's Agamemnon at Rome, from p. 308 onwards.

(5) The ghost of Julia calls Cornelia Pompey's paelex: mistress, or in the precise meaning - a mistress of a married man, a rival to his wife (cf. Susan Treggiari, Concubinae p. 77). Thus she is denying legitimacy to this new marriage. The word paelex was also applied pejoratively to Poppaea Sabina: she is called superba paelex ("proud mistress") in the almost-contemporary pseudo-Senecan tragedy Octavia. The ghost of Julia speaks of Cornelia the way the ghost of another tragic Julio-Claudian ex-wife, Claudia Octavia, could have spoken of Poppaea.

[charlesreeza]

Portrait of a Woman, Encaustic on wood panel with gilt stucco, Egyptian, Roman Period, 130-161 C.E.

Nelson-Atkins Museum of Art, Kansas City, Missouri

This painting was meant to be placed over the face of a mummy.

[jeannereames]

Do you think alexander considered hephaistion his alter-ego?

"He, too, is Alexander"

Did Alexander think of Hephaistion as his alter-ego? Quite possibly—but not by that term. For one thing, “alter-ego” is Latin, and we find it first used in writing by Cicero, although it may have been (quite possibly was) in common parlance prior.

The concept did appear to exist in Greek, but the tendency to apply it to Alexander and Hephaistion owes chiefly to two attestations. The first is the recorded meeting between Alexander, Hephaistion, and Sisygambus, wherein he supposedly said, of Hephaistion, "He, too, is Alexander." The other concerns a quip attributed to Aristotle, mentioned in Diogenes Laertus that friendship is one soul in two bodies—but this is not found Aristotle's surviving works, despite a longish passage on friendship in his Nikomachian Ethics.

Without being unduly cynical, we must always take exact phrasing with a grain of salt. I think there's very little we can be certain Alexander said. Same problem with Aristotle, unless you're reading his actual writings, and even some of those are dubious, such as the infamous Ath Pol, or Constitution of the Athenians. We typically distinguish these as “pseudo-Aristotle.” (So if you see “pseudo-”some-name, that means the work is attributed to that person but almost certainly not actually written by him/her.)

So, as part of my usual ‘Let me ‘splain you why you can’t trust that story/saying…,’ let’s play some dating games here.

First, Cicero is our initial attested use of “alter ego,” in a letter to his friend Atticus, that dates the phrase to somewhere between 68-44, or middle of the first century BCE. Maybe we can push it back a little earlier to the early first century, but I’d be uncomfortable pushing it further without solid evidence. Popular terms change. Anybody call a fashionable (male) person, “That cool cat…” these days—except as a bit of a joke? I didn’t think so. 😉 But “cool” itself is otherwise still in common use. So we have to be careful about when terms are popular.

Now, the story of Alexander before Sysigamgus is best known from Curtius (3.12.16-17), but Diodoros also relates it (17.37.5-6), and so does Arrian (2.12.3-8)—although with a caveat. He says it doesn’t appear in his trusted sources (Aristoboulos or Ptolemy) but he tells it anyway, apparently because he approves of the actions in it.

We don’t know where it comes from. Maybe Kleitarchos? Possibly Kallisthenes? It does not appear in either Plutarch’s bio of Alexander or his Moralia, although normally he loved these sorts of anecdotes. There’s a good reason, however, that Plutarch doesn’t tell it (see below). Justin is just too short. (It also appears in abbreviated form in a couple of later Roman sources, Valerius Maximus and Dio Chrysostom. So it was clearly popular in the rhetorician crowd.)

So, what are the words attributed to Alexander? Diodoros’ Greek is kai gar kai outos Alexandros estin: “and for also this [man] Alexander is” (6). Arrian renders it kai gar ekeinon einai Alexandron: “and for that man is Alexander” (7). Curtius puts it, albeit in Latin, nam et hic Alexander est: “for he also Alexander is” (17). Yes, I rendered those into English pretty exactly, even if it sounds a bit funny. First, it helps show how every translation is an interpretation, but also allows us to watch the parsing itself.

None of them is exactly the same, even if the meaning is the same. That’s a good reminder we don’t have his exact phrasing!

Assuming the event even happened.

Why should we doubt it? Aside from Arrian’s skepticism?

This story feels a LOT like a classic lesson in proper clemency. I’ve talked about the importance of clemency before. The bulk of this tale is meant to show a chivalrous Alexander early in his career, before he fell victim to divine aspirations and the lure of that nasty Oriental Luxury <tm>. See what a good guy he was?! Plutarch, in his take, insists not only did Alexander not rape the royal women, he wouldn’t even look at the women. That’s probably why he doesn’t tell this story, because going to their tent absolutely IS looking at them, donchaknow. It’s even funnier because it’s Plutarch who tells us Statiera died in childbirth well, well after that baby could have been Darius’s. (Consistency? What consistency? Pfff.)

My point here is that the story may very well have been fabricated to make a MORAL point of how to be an honorable victor—whether in the era of the Successors (which grew increasingly bloody and vicious), or in the later Roman period. It would also provide a perfect example for Curtius to contrast with Alexander’s later Asian debauchery.

You may be wondering, But why would they make up an entire story like that? Wouldn’t people know?

Um, to prove my point I give you…Twitter, QAnon, and whatever quote is being attributed (wrongly) to Samuel L. Jackson this week. The more often people hear something, even a lie, the more likely they are to believe it’s true. Arrian’s other stories of after-Issos events has Leonnatos going to talk to the women, not Alexander (and Hephaistion). Of course, it’s entirely possible Leonnatos went the first evening, while Alexander and Hephaistion went the next morning. It even makes a certain amount of sense that he’d visit the royal women. So, the bare-bones of the encounter may be true, but mistaken identities and all those speeches were likely put in people’s mouths later.

Incidentally, there’s a pun in the line, as alex-andros translates to “protector of men.” So Hephaistion is also a protector of men. Romans and Greeks ate up that sort of word-play.

As for the Aristotle titbit…Diogenes Laertus reports a list of “sayings” (aphorisms) attributed to various philosophers. For Aristotle, one is: “To the query, ‘What is a friend?’ his reply was, ‘A single soul dwelling in two bodies’” (5.20). I’ve seen people claim he was referencing Alexander and Hephaistion. There’s absolutely no reason to assume that except romanticism and an Alexander-centric view. In our surviving writings by Aristotle, he barely mentions Alexander.* Shock, I know. 😂 But Alexander wasn’t at the forefront of his mind.

Additionally, as I said above, we have a longish bit on friendship in the Nikomachian Ethics, where that definition doesn’t appear, although nothing he says about true friendship in it contradicts the quote, either. But “Sayings of…” were a popular form of literature in antiquity, and sometimes a clever quip got attributed to more than one person! Maybe Aristotle did say that, but it’s not in actual writings about friendship by Aristotle. Aristotle’s writings on friendship are rather more complex; he lists three types of friendship in Book VIII.

Anyway, this little in-depth study is meant to help folks see how complicated it can be, to get back to what ALEXANDER himself said, thought, or even did.

Yet one thing ALL the sources agree upon: Hephaistion was Alexander’s favorite, not just (or even primarily) as a commander, but as a person. I’ve never read any claim to the contrary, and I have (quite literally) read everything in the ancient sources that concerns Hephaistion (and most everything that concerns Alexander too).

So, while it’s impossible to say that Alexander considered Hephaistion an “alter-ego,” or ever called him “Alexander too,” you can rest assured that every ancient source agrees that Hephaistion was dearer to Alexander than anybody else, maybe even including his own mother.

—————-

* 391a2: his “On the Universe” treatise opens with a reference to “Alexander,” who I think it’s safe to assume is the king. And 1420a5, is “Rhetoric to Alexander”--except that treatise is widely understood (even in the medieval world) to be bogus: e.g., a "pseudo-Aristotle" text. Plus Alexander is mentioned in a couple fragments.

[juxtaposie]

I’m absolutely not trying to hijack this post. But. I have a thing. It’s an idea for a Haymitch recovery fic that has been bubbling around in my noggin for several years. It goes thusly.

Some indiscriminate time after the end of Mockingjay, Haymitch suffers a medical crisis of such massive proportions that he ends up getting airlifted to the nearest real hospital in a district yet to be determined. Peeta goes with him (because Katniss can’t leave 12), and stays just long enough to make sure Haymitch is out of danger and convince him to attend an in-patient rehab program recommended by the doctor who saved his life. During this time, Katniss is so monumentally mad at Haymitch that she’s decided she can no longer have him in her life bc losing him would hurt too much and he could do something about it at this point by getting sober - none of which Haymitch will realize until several weeks into rehab when he finally has enough mental acuity to realize Peeta’s been the only one on their video calls.

Rehab is hard and therapy is stupid - if anyone has a legitimate reason to drink their life away, it’s him - and it’s made much more confusing because duh duh duh Effie Trinket is there too. In the years following the Games she’s been struggling to cope with her own complicit actions, as well as feeling ostracized by both the world she came from and the new world she can’t seem to join. What started as sleeping pills and benzos to cope with her new reality has turned into a full blown addiction. When Peeta called her to tell her Haymitch was in the Capital attending rehab, she took it as a sign.

They start a tenuous friendship. Haymitch is annoyed with himself for not being more upset with Effie, and Effie is just grateful for something familiar.

Haymitch won’t go to group therapy for a long time, and never ends up sharing. He spends most of his free time reading the books in the little library housed by the facilities. There’s only a handful, and most of them are propaganda, so he calls his good friend Plutarch to see if any of his massive library survived the war - turns out the whole house was untouched, that sonnuva bitch.

So Plutarch brings him books, and Haymitch reads voraciously, anything on any topic, of any genre. He doesn’t do much actual recovering.

Effie isn’t doing so great. Haymitch can tell she’s all bluster when she talks about feeling better, and when their 90 days are up, on a whim (and feeling weirdly responsible for her), he asks her to come back to 12. He’s sort of got the feeling she doesn’t really have much to go back to, and he at least knows it would do her good to see the kids.

Back in 12, Peeta has been paying Hazelle and the older Hawthorne boys stupid amounts of money to help him clean and refurbish Haymitch’s house. Meanwhile, he and Katniss are arguing about her very sudden decision to cut Haymitch off without a word. Peeta feels caught between the two of them and Katniss is struggling with the depths of her love for her mentor and the fear she felt at almost losing him.

And honestly after that my planning gets a little nebulous. The idea is that Haymitch continues to lean into reading, slowly amassing his own collection of books which he lends out to the other people in 12. Effie convinces him to open a slightly more formal library, or at least let her organize things so they don’t lose any of the books. This spirals into a country-wide trip where they visit the other remaining Victors, and search for more books. People all over have been hiding things in their floorboards and cellars and walls, books from the Dark Days and even from before that. Haymitch is fascinated and obsessed and Effie is just glad to have a purpose as his pseudo-secretary, travel agent, and general handler. Very slowly, they begin to fall in love as they start to build something together.

Other things that happen -

- Katniss and Haymitch make up, after a very heartfelt apology on his part and almost a year of sobriety.

- Haymitch and Effie do a lot of traveling, which doesn’t always go smoothly, where they learn to appreciate each other’s more latent qualities - Haymitch’s resourcefulness and quick thinking, Effie’s perseverance and ingenuity. This is where they do the bulk of their falling in love.

- Annie has a psychotic episode that they learn about when Johanna shows up in the night with toddler Finn in tow saying Annie came to visit her then left without saying anything and could they please watch this toddler while she goes to make sure Annie isn’t dead? Haymitch and Effie join her search, Peeta and Katniss look after baby Finn. They find Annie a little bedraggled but ultimately unharmed on a gulf beach in 11, and she and Finn move in with Johanna.

- Posie Hawthorne takes a bit of a shine to Effie. Posie is young enough to only sort of understand the horrors this woman inflicted on her district, and she’s got a lot of interesting clothes. Effie encourages Posie’s budding fashion sense, and teaches her some things about color theory, etc. Hazelle is outraged but ultimately begrudgingly allows the weird little friendship to blossom.

So. That’s what I got. I fear this fic will never see the light of day, but I read this post and thought “Well I have a fic sort of like that!” only I don’t, but I had to write SOMETHING down, didn’t I?

now might also be a good time to revisit Haymitch's Victory Lap Tour... the idea of which was most certainly inspired by watching Anthony Bourdain: No Reservations with my dad growing up, I've realized.

like Haymitch is diving for shellfish and whale watching with Annie, and trying kickboxing and hidden hot springs with Enobaria, and producing music with Beetee (a little side hobby of his, in my mind) as he visits them. and all the while he's Learning About Himself along the way, even if the whole thing started as a joke and he thought volunteering in Katniss' place would make it all fall through

even in the version where he's there to play the fiddle - that's only peripheral to all the stuff he does in the downtime.

Hi!!!

(Cross out me and put him - you get the idea)

No no no - We need this idea now more than ever!

Haymitch learning to live (and love) beyond the games?!? Yes please!

I want this for him!!

[littlesparklight]

You don't have any idea how much i hate stories in which greek gods die... Even worse when all the plot is "let's kill the gods because they're awful and had to be erased" (looking at you God of War)

But this lead me to a question... Could gods actually die? They're called inmortals by poets like Hesiod and Homer, and i couldn't find any myth in which a greek god die... Egyptians had one, Osiris' death, but Greeks as far as i know, didn't have so could they being killed?

I hate stories like that, I do. In all ways but there's definitely overlapping amounts of distaste when it comes to "the gods die" and "they NEED to die and this is good and the point of the story".

Anyway, generally/basically they can't, and won't/don't, no. The exception(s) just prove the rule, more or less.

The defeated Titans aren't dead, just locked up, for example. There are scholiasts noting that there were discomfort with the idea that Apollo killed the elder Kyklopes - who were immortal! - and that instead, he was made to kill their sons. Clearly these, much like the other non-elder cyclopes aren't necessarily immortal. Immortality is a very... unstable element, honestly; two gods might not give birth to a god for example ("demigods" born of two divinities, like when Orpheus has Apollo and a Muse for parents, for example, and Stesichorus has Geryon, the son of Chrysaor the son of Medusa and Poseidon, debate the possibility that he's either immortal or mortal, and how this should influence how he'll deal with/face Herakles or not).

Anyway, our 'exceptions' are like that of Orphic Dionysos, who is born a god (of Zeus and Persephone) and yet killed when ripped apart by the Titans. "Regular" Dionysos, who was only the son of Zeus and Semele, was of course a demigod when he was born in Semele's death. Or he might yet have been a god from the beginning - it's hard to tell. Does being carried in Zeus thigh change him, make him more, or is it only, say, simple protection until he's finished cooking and he was always going to be a full god born from a mortal mother and a divine father?

You've got that story from Pseudo-Plutarch about Pan being dead, buuut I don't think it's as simple as that actually meaning anyone believed that meant Pan actually had died. If we're to take that seriously at all. (Pausanias, later than Plutarch, in his Description of Greece, certainly note people still worshipped Pan.)

Basically, "immortality", that is, immortality and eternal youth, such as the gods possessed, was absolute. Not all the divine necessarily possessed both - nymphs can, as we know, both die and be killed, but they were long-lived and ever youthful. But generally, yeah, the Greek gods cannot and will not die.

[amostcuriousmythicist]

Birth of Ajax the Greater

Telamon, the son of Aeacus and Endeïs, came to Euboea, violated the daughter of Alcothoüs, Eriboea​, and escaped by night. But when her father discovered the matter and suspected someone of the citizens, he gave the girl to one of his guardsmen to be cast into the sea. But the guardsman took pity on her, and sold her into slavery. When the ship on which she was put in at Salamis, Telamon bought her, and she bore Ajax. So Aretades the Cnidian in the second book of his History of the Islands.

Pseudo-Plutarch, Parallel Lives 27.312

[babyrdie]

Since you are one of the few people I see recognizing that the myth of Ariadne on the island has more than one version...which one do you prefer?

Even though I think the versions where Ariadne has an unhappy ending, from death (like the ones where she dies on the island, as told by Plutarch and Homer, although their versions of how this happens differ) to kidnapping (as told by Pausanias and Pseudo-Apollodorus) are just as valid as the one where she lives immortalized and happy with Dionysus (she is still immortalized in the kidnapping version, by the way. It's just not the ideal marriage anymore), I prefer to choose the happy version because I feel that 1) Ariadne alive seems better attested than Ariadne dead 2) and in that case, I prefer her to be eternally by the side of someone who didn't kidnap her. Sure, I could go with the version where Dionysus forces Theseus to leave Ariadne (as told by Philostratus) or that Athena appears to do so (interpreted from visual sources), but in both cases it's still not exactly… the best for Ariadne. Like okay, she feels abandoned after Theseus is forced to abandon her, so the god responsible for that abandonment shows up to comfort her? It still sounds so manipulative that I couldn't really see this as integral happiness.

And Ariadne's family is so troubled, I want her to at least be able to be entirely happy with her husband instead of involving kidnapping or emotional manipulation, although both of those versions are valid and Dionysus having this kind of behavior isn't really "out of character" (I mean, look at what he does to those who disrespect him! And in the end, he is a god. It could be another myth that exemplifies the power that gods exert over other beings, like the more typical ones with Zeus, Poseidon, etc. I don't think it would be unexpected behavior, myth-wise). So I honestly prefer it when Theseus abandons her of his own free will and Dionysus actually saves her, because at least then I feel better for Ariadne.

As for the reason…the sources give different reasons (Hesiodic fragment, for example, says that he was in love with another woman. In my opinion, it possibly implies that in this version he had possibly only agreed to marry Ariadne because he needed her help to save his people, but was never actually in love), but of all I prefer Fabulae version, in which it's said that Theseus abandoned her because there would be disapproval if he brought her with him. Considering that 1) Ariadne is of the Cretan royal family, the same family that made life hell for the Athenians 2) Ariadne was taken without the consent of her legal guardian, in this case Minos 3) Theseus had only recently started a life in Athens...well, this would be an understandable fear. Honestly, the possibility that Theseus felt he needed to pretend to be in love with Ariadne in order to save the Athenians is also intriguing because then it becomes a pseudo-love story that becomes a horror story on both sides (Ariadne being abandoned on a random island is certainly a horror story for her, while Theseus thinking that saying "no" couldn't only kill him but the other young Athenians is equally terrifying), but Aegle (the woman he loved in this version) isn't very present in the surviving sources, so it's a bit of a nebulous approach, so to speak.

[the-good-spartan]

Roman & Hellenic Polytheism - they are Not the Same Thing

Listen you guys. This is something I see everywhere and it bothers the heck out of me.

It is so very important to remember that Roman polytheism, while it came to borrow stories from Hellenic polytheism, was a *completely different religion* with roots primarily in the Etruscan, not Hellenic, tradition.

Straight out the gate, Roman polytheism has a multitude of different gods without a so-called ‘Hellenic equivalent’. I can list at least ten off the top of my head and there were many, many more than that.

In instances where the Romans equated their gods with the Hellenic, there was already a long tradition of that god in their own country - they did not just take a Hellenic god and superimpose it onto their own similar deity - quite the contrary. They thought the Hellenic god was a form of *their* deity.

Only in cases where they shared a god, honouring them under the same name as their native country - for example Apollo, Isis, Mithras or Magna Mater - might we suppose there was a wholesale acceptance of that god as they were perceived in their country of origin - and even then, I strongly suspect it would’ve quickly taken on a distinctly Roman form.

The way in which these two religions, the Hellenic & Roman, with their two pantheons of gods, are conflated and misrepresented is incredibly widespread and horrifyingly reductive.

The trouble is, many Hellenic gods cannot now be recovered in their true Hellenic form, but must be viewed through a Roman lens; and that Roman lens, it should surprise no one to hear, saw Roman gods in their Roman form, even when couched in pseudo-Hellenic terms.

Just because we can’t now unpick the one from the other doesn’t justify us assuming they’re the same. We have plenty of evidence that they weren’t.

It would be like taking Plutarch’s history writing about classical Sparta, composed ~500 years after the fact, and assuming he was 100% correct simply because that’s one of the only ancient sources we have on the subject. We know this can’t be so - yet where the mythos is concerned, we leave this basic understanding of the ‘trouble with ancient texts’ at the door, and assume it’s all one - that the Romans have just ‘taken over’ Hellenic polytheism and made it their own. It is *infinitely* more complicated than that.

I always recommend reading ‘Religions of Rome’ by Beard, North & Price on the subject; it’s very in-depth and does what can be done to gain a picture of Roman religion as it’s own entity. It also makes a clear point of just how much we don’t know about ancient religion more broadly - an acknowledgement that is missing in so much discourse that goes on here.