#timestamp: around 05:14:00

[freakinator]

ZAM: "Aww, Pentar and Ecorridor are chunkbanned together forever."

[how-about-some-more-whump]

The Dance of the Storm 风暴舞 (2021) - Whump List

Synopsis: After the death of his father, Li Junjie (on the left) was sent to an orphanage where he met Shi Yunhao (on the right). They became the best of friends, and years later entered a security agency as new recruits. Everything was fine, until Li Junjie suddenly disappeared for three years without a word. Now coming back and looking for revenge, Li Junjie is faced with mixed feelings coming from his agency, his brother and especially his ex-fiancée.

Notes: The WHUMP. The BROMANCE (in pink). The ACTION SCENES. It’s everything I need to keep my mind peacefully quiet. Apart from these scenes, you can watch this drama in x2 speed (or skip it entirely), it’s way too long otherwise. I refer to Junjie and Yunhao as "brothers" because it’s how they refer to each other. Love ya!

NB: Timestamps might be off (< 1mn) depending on where you watch the show. I do not disclose any character death on purpose. The characters are listed by chronological order of whump in each episode.

WARNING: This drama contains se*ual assault depiction.

------ EPISODE 1 ------

Li Junjie

2:17 (In a nightmare) Stabbed in the gut, holding his wound, struggling to stay awake, woozy

16:28 At gunpoint, fighting, running away, slapped

18:57 Hugged (awwww)

21:20 (In a flashback) Shot in the leg, at gunpoint

22:16 (In a flashback) Threatened

Shi Yunhao

40:41 Ambushed, under heavy gunfire

------ EPISODE 2 ------

Shi Yunhao

1:37 (Continued from previous ep) Ambushed, under heavy gunfire

Li Junjie

4:38 Fighting with a criminal, communication with his teammates cut off

6:15 Shot in the back by his teammate (probably in a vest because he seems fine)

9:17 In a car crash, fighting, shot at, holding onto a moving car

11:24 Surrounded, at gunpoint

14:44 (In a flashback) Shot in the leg, collapses

19:18 (In a flashback) Threatened

------ EPISODE 3 ------

Li Junjie

2:51 Fighting with a criminal, thrown around, punched, panting

12:43 Threatened with a bomb

Shi Yunhao

12:43 Threatened with a bomb

------ EPISODE 4 ------

Shi Yunhao

8:38 (The way they smile at each other-)

39:29 Ambushed, attacked with a knife, disarmed, fighting, thrown to the ground, dragged

41:25 Ran over by a car, panting

Li Junjie

20:42 In a barfight (22:27 wtf is happening lmao)

------ EPISODE 5 ------

Shi Yunhao

2:27 Publicly humiliated, pushed

5:17 Blaiming himself

6:11 Comforted by his brother (cuties)

14:00 Yelled at by his father, apologizes, teary eyes

------ EPISODE 6 ------

Li Junjie

6:35 Surrounded, at gunpoint, surrenders

7:19 Interrogated (stays detained for the rest of the episode)

------ EPISODE 7 ------

Li Junjie

11:23 (Continued from previous ep) Still detained

14:20 Handcuffed, interrogated

22:25 Shot in the abdomen, hiding, sweating, escapes from cell

34:28 Bleeding, collapses, pale face, panting

39:15 Barely conscious, wound digged through, wincing and moaning in pain, bullet digged out

------ EPISODE 8 ------

Li Junjie

11:52 Pale face, taken away

19:09 Black sack on his head, struggling to walk, holding his wound

39:25 (In a flashback) Training, attacked from behind, thrown to the ground, in an armlock

40:40 At gunpoint, shot at

------ EPISODE 9 ------

Li Junjie

6:02 (Continued from previous ep) At gunpoint, shot at

9:05 Shot in the chest, falls from a cliff

10:10 Drowning, passes out

29:39 Unconscious, bullet digged out

32:57 Still unconscious, infected wound, fever

37:59 Still unconscious, struggling to wake up

Shi Yunhao

9:02 Pushed, at gunpoint

9:50 Slapped

16:29 Tearing up

------ EPISODE 10 ------

Li Junjie

5:30 (In a flashback) In a group fight alongside his brother, thrown to the ground, kicked in the face, bloody nose, thrown again, groaning in pain, pulled by the hair, punched, dazed

16:26 Bitten (well deserved, how the hell doesn’t he realize how terrifying he is for her), screaming in pain, attacked with a knife, jumps through a window, wincing in pain, running away

Shi Yunhao

5:30 (In a flashback) In a group fight alongside his brother, picked up, manhandled, bruised face

------ EPISODE 11 ------

Li Junjie

2:25 Attacked with a knife, fighting, strangled, arm cut, running away

------ EPISODE 12 ------

Li Junjie

25:20 Trades himself against a hostage

30:26 Hands zip tied behind his back, black sack on his head, manhandled, smacked in the face

32:18 Tied upside down on a boat with ropes, can’t see and can’t hear, spasms

36:28 Hands zip tied behind his back, black sack on his head, helped to walk, weak

------ EPISODE 13 ------

Li Junjie

4:37 (Continued from previous ep) Still tied up, weak

24:29 Tied up on a chair, black sack on his head, injected with a sedative, passes out

26:22 (In a video) Still tied up, sedated, black sack on his head, shot in the head

Shi Yunhao

8:30 At gunpoint

------ EPISODE 14 ------

Shi Yunhao

40:22 (In a flashback) Surrounded by a group of people on motorcycles, trying to run away

Li Junjie

40:35 (In a flashback) Sprained ankle, limping, attacked, slapped, hit between his legs, moaning and wincing in pain

------ EPISODE 15 ------

Li Junjie

10:31 Hands zip tied to a chair

16:32 Tortured (head plunged into water), hands chained behind his back, thrown to the ground, beaten

36:22 Hung from the ceiling by the wrists, unconscious, slapped, beaten, dragged, groaning in pain, drooling blood

Shi Yunhao

22:00 Drinking alone, defeated

------ EPISODE 16 ------

Li Junjie

7:08 Unconscious in a cell, face bruised and bloody, dragged, tied on a chair, manhandled, interrogated, thirsty

9:22 (In a flashback) Hung from the ceiling by the wrists, thirsty

10:34 Injected with some sort of drug, screaming in pain

20:22 Lying on the ground in a cell with his hands tied, barely conscious, struggling to move

27:29 Fighting his way out of it

30:42 At gunpoint, recaptured

37:07 Hands tied behind his back, thrown in a cell

------ EPISODE 17 ------

Li Junjie

3:45 (Continued from previous ep) Lying on the ground in a cell, bloody (it’s pretty much all he does for this entire ep)

------ EPISODE 18 ------

Li Junjie

6:47 Hung from the ceiling by the wrists, unconscious

10:02 Watching someone he loves get tortured (waterboarded)

------ EPISODE 19 ------

None.

------ EPISODE 20 ------

Li Junjie

40:21 Gun to his head

------ EPISODE 21 ------

Li Junjie

7:41 At gunpoint, gun to his head

16:35 Gun to his head

18:20 In a gunfight alongside his brother

19:35 (This bromance omg)

32:31 Gun to his head

Shi Yunhao

17:41 Gun to his head

18:20 In a gunfight alongside his brother

------ EPISODE 22 ------

Li Junjie

2:39 Tied up on a chair

6:30 Kicked in the chest, moaning in pain, stepped on, groaning in pain, bleeding from the mouth

22:41 Beaten up, dazed, spitting blood

------ EPISODE 23 ------

Li Junjie

5:40 Shot at, running away

6:35 Head grazed by a bullet, woozy, shot at more, hiding

------ EPISODE 24 ------

Li Junjie

24:52 Jumps through a window while chasing a criminal, wincing in pain, shot at, running away

--- EPISODES 25 to 29 ---

None.

------ EPISODE 30 ------

Li Junjie

9:21 Arrested

------ EPISODE 31 ------

Li Junjie

1:44 (Continued from previous ep) Detained (stays this way the whole episode)

Shi Yunhao

8:00 Pissed (and hot as hell)

------ EPISODE 32 ------

Li Junjie

18:56 Sent to jail

Shi Yunhao

23:32 Betrayed, gun to the back of his head, forced to shoot someone

------ EPISODE 33 ------

Li Junjie

12:03 Hit on the back, manhandled by prison guards

40:21 Wrongfully accused, hit, taken away to solitary confinement

------ EPISODE 34 ------

Li Junjie

1:40 Handcuffed

3:37 Hit on the back, manhandled by prison guards

12:11 Fighting with other inmates, stabbed in the shoulder, shot, panting

29:19 On a hospital bed

40:51 Unconscious on a hospital bed

Shi Yunhao

3:34 Kicked in the chest, falls to the ground, kicked

22:28 Attacked with a knife, stabbed in the arm, groaning in pain

24:17 Cleaning his wound, shirtless

------ EPISODE 35 ------

Li Junjie

1:39 (Continued from previous ep) On a hospital bed, weak, comforted by loved ones, struggling to breath, coughing, passes out (can’t believe i got pranked by this mf)

3:40 Mask brutally taken off, exclamation of pain, scolded

17:15 Learns his father might be alive, upset

21:05 Tries to run while wounded, in pain, collapses

22:02 Helped to walk

------ EPISODE 36 ------

Li Junjie

5:17 Worried for his brother, comforted

20:26 In a fight, hit on his wound, in pain

21:38 In a heated argument with his brother

Shi Yunhao

11:04 (In a video) Holding his wounded arm, in pain

14:36 Under pressure, sighing

21:38 In a heated argument with his brother

29:49 Drinking

32:21 Still drinking, drunk, angry, crying

------ EPISODE 37 ------

None.

------ EPISODE 38 ------

Shi Yunhao

33:16 Tailed, in a car crash, severely injured, unconscious

38:50 Unconscious on a hospital bed, intubated

------ EPISODE 39 ------

Shi Yunhao

5:14 Unconscious on a hospital bed

34:54 Unconscious, abducted while being transferred to another hospital

Li Junjie

5:21 Bed vigil for his brother

20:12 Checking on his brother (who’s cutting onions?)

------ EPISODE 40 ------

Shi Yunhao

17:21 Unconscious, bomb strapped to his chest

18:07 Blown by an explosion

19:24 On a hospital bed, weak, hoarse voice, coughing

Li Junjie

18:07 Blown by an explosion

------ EPISODE 41 ------

Li Junjie

8:30 Jumps out of a moving car, dragged under a bus, shot at

16:35 Falls from a bridge into water while driving a bus

19:53 On a hospital bed

Shi Yunhao

17:40 Holding back tears

------ EPISODE 42 ------

Shi Yunhao

30:36 Disarmed, shot at, hiding, running through two brick walls (he’s lucky he’s not in Europe)

32:40 Trapped in a dark room, can’t see a thing, attacked with a knife, cuts all over his body, unsteady

34:10 Lying on the floor, bleeding, struggling to stand and walk, panting, kicked, grabs a blade with his bare hand

36:42 Panting, struggling to walk, attacked with mountain ice axes (yup), fighting

------ EPISODE 43 ------

Shi Yunhao

43:05 (This whole monologue is so funny, he’s the best bro ever lmao)

___

Head to the WHUMP MASTERLIST for more whump! For more of Willian Chan (Li Junjie), click here.

[idlingintheimpalapodcast]

New Episode Alert: “I never throw away an idea.” Interview with kittenofdoomage, FanFic Author

Sandra and Kasey got to check a guest off their podcast bucket list! Listeners may have heard them collectively agree, “We’ll have made it when we can interview @kittenofdoomage!”

That day has arrived!!!

Rhi, known in fandom writing circles as kittenofdoomage, has been posting fics on AO3 since 2016 and is one of the most prolific reader-insert writers around. She writes for many fandoms, but Supernatural makes up the bulk of her stories, which total well over a thousand. If you love Alpha/Beta/Omega dynamics, you could survive quite happily on a diet of her fics for, well, forever.

If all that weren't enough to grab you, Rhi is also a Brit & her & Kasey bonded HARD over growing up in the UK. And she's responsibly for the best brit-ism Sandra has ever heard (kinda gutted it didn't make the episode title tbh loool)

Listen on Spotify Watch on Youtube:

Chapter Timestamps 00:00:00 - Intro 00:04:04 - “Live Free and Twi-Hard” sparked kitten’s journey back into fic writing 00:06:49 - Buffy started it all 00:11:06 - Which Winchester got its claws in kitten? 00:14:47 - SPN viewing habits 00:16:17 - Real-life reaction to writing fanfic 00:20:39 - Thoughts on the show 00:24:33 - The JDM Effect 00:30:18 - Favorite characters on SPN 00:31:48 - John Winchester 00:34:16 - Writing characters into canon 00:36:05 - Plot twists and cliffhangers 00:39:30 - Kitten’s writing start 00:40:46 - The community around fanfic and reader engagement 00:45:26 - Reader-insert realm 00:48:47 - Imposter syndrome 00:51:30 - Does kitten herself into fic as the reader? 00:53:43 - Unlearning the wrong thing to improve 00:55:35 - Has a reader insert ever become an OC? 00:57:32 - Everyone loves a happy ending? 01:00:52 - Where do the ideas come from? 01:02:56 - The privilege of making people feel 01:04:46 - The ideas list 01:10:24 - Threesome logistics 01:12:13 - Omegaverse 01:14:46 - Teens on the Internet and finding fanfic 01:18:42 - Writing fancy stories for adults 01:21:19 - Kitten’s Patreon 01:27:24 - Kitten’s fave fanfic authors 01:30:35 - Does kitten have a fave fic she’s written? 01:33:54 - Kitten’s fanfic limits 01:39:38 - Fandom popularity 01:47:58 - Kasey’s questions 01:51:28 - Kitten’s words of wisdom 01:56:06 - Final thoughts and outro

[deliciouskeys]

Holy fuck. @xieyaohuan and I are yappers. This is very much unplanned freestyle stream of consciousness conversation about Homelander and Homelander-adjacent things. No promises on the quality, but I thought the conversational flow was pretty good. Topics are timestamped (do not look at the total time, please).

And apologies for the laptop microphone (sounds like at least one of us is speaking out of a jar and no in silico dialogue enhancement could rescue it). I only have one good microphone and that would not work for a 2 way conversation -_-

00:00:00:00 We are recording a podcast, apparently

00:00:57:07 How we discovered The Boys

00:05:40:01 How we became obsessed with Homelander

00:13:28:20 Madelyn Stillwell

00:16:01:14 Nerfing of powers

00:16:57:03 How Xieyaohuan started writing fic

00:20:06:06 How Deliciouskeys started writing fic

00:27:48:15 Deliciouskeys’ previous fandoms compared to The Boys fandom

00:29:52:17 Xieyaohuan’s previous fandoms compared to the boys fandom

00:37:33:02 Reading incoming questions live

00:40:13:00 When did Butchlander click for us

00:47:47:12 Xieyaohuan’s ao3 name: Frenchcroatiansquid

00:50:36:00 “Fears” about season 5

00:56:46:01 Kripke’s idea for an ending (and puritanism)

01:00:14:24 Morality of The Boys as revealed by Termite scenes (yeah...)

01:03:40:02 Homelander getting depowered ending, supe culture wars

01:08:24:20 Homelander & Ryan

01:16:36:14 Billy Butcher’s ending

01:20:31:13 Mothers

01:23:46:27 How fandom has affected our real life

01:28:04:01 Sticking around until the end of a franchise

01:30:06:06 What's stalling Xieyaohuan's fic All God’s Children Took Their Toll

01:36:05:11 What's stalling Deliciouskeys' fic The Selfish Gene

01:43:16:17 Homelander’s behavior in the B6 lab

01:47:46:17 Maevelander

01:50:22:20 Homelander’s various parents

02:00:37:06 Back to Maeve

02:05:27:16 Starlander

02:07:48:07 Viclander

02:09:24:21 Sagelander

02:18:57:17 Soldier Boy x homelander

02:20:38:14 NOTP’s (if there are any)

02:26:16:18 Hughlander

02:27:27:12 Firelander

02:32:35:27 We attempt to come up with underutilized tropes in HL fics

02:36:52:27 Beccalander

02:41:20:06 Homelander x Todd

02:42:49:02 Would we be fans of Homelander within-universe?

02:44:49:14 Homelander-is-a-nerd fanon theory

02:47:34:18 Public vs private display in Homelander’s apartment

02:50:22:14 Kripke’s heavy hand with themes

02:51:29:13 Favorite scene of season 3 and 4

02:53:08:14 In conclusion, we are yappers about The Boys

[leohnoz]

Leaders 2 + Edits

MORE leaders (or adjacent) from clangen blogs i follow! First post here

TW for flashing/flickering in the video, blood, and eyestrain for close-ups. Those close-ups, credit @'s, timestamps and extras below.

0:00 - Splinterstar, 0:38 - Amberstar/feather, 2:57 - Honeystar

@songclangen

1:02 - Cinnamonstar

@silkclan

1:37 - Ashpaw/sight

@ashpaw-is-alone

2:01 - Rapidstar

@horizonclansfate

2:30 - Dancingstar, 2:39 - Partridgestar

@silverclangen

3:25 - Poppypaw

@lostclanwc

3:41 - Kestrelstar

@echoes-in-echoclan

4:08 - Froststar, 4:35 - Branchstar II, 5:14 - Brindlestar

@through-frost-and-flames

5:38 - Fallenstar

@poppyclangen

6:16 - Pearlstar

@aphidclan-clangen

7:05 - Shadestar

@tidalclan

7:29 - Flyquiver/star

@clanoflotus-clangen

7:54 - Pythonback

@rise-of-littleclan

8:16 - Brownleaf

@the-path-of-dreamers

9:02 - Leapstar

@nectarclan

9:48 - Messing with backgrounds

Notes:

-forgot to save the image without my watermark on all the cats... so had to go back and redo it all

-redrew Twistedeyes because of the 3d effect on her, and redo Fogstars/Foamstars fade effects

-generally fixing little mistakes from the first batch

-had to go back thru Songclangen because HONEYSTAR

-lots of forgetting to resize these cats

-forgot to record for a few

-went back and fixed Leapstars face, didn't like it

-messed around with placements a lot

Edits:

@fallenclan, @whispering-clan, @juniper-clan, @we-are-dogclan, @bitterclan

[updatingranboo]

megathread of ranboo on aimseys subathon pt. 1

for all the boobers who want to know which sections of the sept 2023 aimsathon ranboo was on, here are some timestamps!

twitch vod link

among us: 2:03:45 - 3:46:00

mcci: 3:46:00 - 4:20:25

ranboo does impromptu dnd: 4:20:24 - 4:57:54 (dnd talk/context for the story starts around 4:09:00)

minecraft server with friends: 5:27:00 - 9:09:05

jackbox: 9:09:05 - 10:39:51

ranboo is very briefly in vc at: 13:56:00

more friend minecraft server: 14:14:00 - 15:49:00

mcci again: 15:49:00 - 16:15:00

fortnite: 16:15:00 - 20:54:30

aimsey plays games with chat with ranboo in vc: 25:35:14 - 26:23:34

chatting while guqqie does her makeup/plays stardew: 29:56:00 - 32:22:00

fortnite again: 32:22:00 - 34:06:14

new minecraft server: 34:06:14 - 43:19:00 :D

fun fact, ranboo has spent an approximate 29 hours on the aimsathon :D

[mareastrorum]

Nein Again music for Episode 16: A Favor in Kind under the cut! They finally turned up the music, so there's a much better list this time.

Right at the start of the episode, the Exodar Walk 3 theme was playing behind the welcome and ad bit. The Exodar is a crashed ship (now city) in World of Warcraft, and there are 4 themes that replay in the background. The link below is timestamped to #3, but #2 is also very similar.

I had a heck of a time trying to ID the initial battle music with dramatic vocals. I think some of them may be unnamed tracks from Witcher 2 or Witcher III.

I'm fairly confident the one playing at about 40:00 is Conjunction of the Spheres or an extended version of it. The song immediately before it has similar motifs, so I'm still hunting around for it. This is one of the suite for the final questline of the game, so it wouldn't surprise me if there are numerous unnamed tracks meant to bridge the main themes. The song repeats around 1:01:00, so I think Matt had the group on repeat.

I'm fairly confident the song that follows is Tedd Deireadh, the Final Age, which is an instrumental version (without vocals).

At about 1:14:20, Matt replays the Exodar music (from the beginning of the episode) as Nott discovers the second book.

At 1:20:09 or so, Emhyr Var Emreis begins while Jester mends Caleb's new spellbook.

At 1:24:28, Forest Day 2 from World of Warcraft plays while the Nein split up loot. The timestamps in the description note other similar songs.

Immediately afterwards, one of the Zangarmarsh themes plays, though I had difficulty ID'ing the exact one. The link has a timestamp to a typical song for that region.

At 1:35:55, Matt plays Family Matters while the Nein discuss how to avoid handing the Magician's Judge over to the Gentleman. (Was that a hint about Jester...?)

I'm 90% sure the music playing during Fjord's dream is World of Warcraft music, but I was not able to ID the exact tracks. However, the theme that plays at 2:04:55 is the music when a WoW player has died and must return to their body from the Graveyard. It's been in the game since the beginning, and it shares some motifs with several Haunted, Cursed, and similar background tracks, though the chanting is unique to this one.

I heard Geralt's motif play at 2:24:55, but couldn't ID the song. It's very similar to the sound from A Nearly Peaceful Place, but that song used a woodwind, and the one in the stream had strings. It might have been from Witcher III, so I'll update if I locate it.

At 2:40:25, when the Gentleman joins the Nein, the Scarlet Raven tavern music plays. It's timestamped in the compilation below.

Right afterwards, at 2:42:55, Matt switches back to Witcher III for Another Round for Everyone. This normally plays during Gwent games in Witcher.

The next few songs are from the WoW Tavern compilation. First is Lion's Pride. I couldn't ID the second one because of the constant conversation, but Gallow's End begins at 2:49:17, then Pig and Whistle, then Stonefire.

At 3:01:38, Aen Seidhe begins. I had initially mistaken it for A Magic Cave because I couldn't hear the strumming strings, but then the vocals kicked in about a minute into the song.

I can't embed any additional videos, but there's a few more songs!

While Fjord is checking out the medical clinic, Beauclair at Night begins around 3:04:30. It's another unreleased Witcher III track, but this time from the Blood and Wine DLC.

Dwarven Stone Upon Dwarven Stone from the Witcher 2 soundtrack begins around 3:18:05, when Beau and Molly come down from their high on Skein. This is one of the few Witcher songs with a melody from an acoustic guitar. It's a long song, so it plays through that conversation, Yasha trying to learn about the conflicts at the border, checking the map, then Nott's day out as a "normal" halfling and sending post to Felderwin.

Immediately afterwards is Vergen by Night, another song from Witcher 2. It's nearly as long as the prior song, lasting through Caleb's awkward attempt to inspect the Beacon, his conversation with Nott, and Yasha's attempts to barter with Pumat.

At 3:33:00, one of the Forest Day themes from WoW (linked above in the Redridge Mountains compilation) plays as Beau goes to the Cobalt Soul and meets Zeenoth.

At 3:38:09, when Beau tells Dairon about the Xhorhasian spies, Matt switches to The Vagabond from Witcher III.

I'm pretty sure the choral music playing during the Beacon scene is from WoW, but I wasn't able to find it. There's very similar pieces for holy places (Moon Glade, Mount Hyjal, etc.), so I'm going through the zone music to see if I can track it down.

Emhyr Var Emreis replays at about 3:49:15, once Matt declines to tell the rest of the table what the Fragment of Possibility does.

Next is one of the background songs from the Blood and Wine DLC, but I couldn't get an exact ID. The motifs from The Slopes of the Blessure are present intermittently as the players discuss the mechanics of the Fragment, but I couldn't find the right song.

That's all I could manage this week. I ended up spending 8 hours watching the episode because I kept pausing to search. Hopefully the audio is this good every week!

[the-conversation-pod]

Tens and Chops, Vol. 1 (A Grab Bag Episode)

We gotta clear the decks ahead of the VIIB Awards, so it’s a grab bag episode! Ben, NiNi, and Shan talk a bunch of shows that we couldn’t NOT talk about, and award the fall’s Girl You Tried.

Grab a drink and a snack and join us for one of the most varied episodes we've had on the show.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Introduction 00:01:15 - Kiseki: Dear To Me 00:12:20 - Dangerous Romance 00:26:05 - Love In Translation 00:41:14 - I Cannot Reach You 00:54:43 - My Personal Weatherman 01:07:01 - If It's With You 01:15:38 - Absolute Zero 01:21:05 - My Dear Gangster Oppa 01:33:32 - Middleman's Love 01:49:07 - Final Thoughts, and Girl, You Tried

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Tens and Chops

Ben

And we're back! We've made it to the Grab Bag for this season of The Conversation. We've named this one “Tens and Chops: Volume 1.” I really hope we have a collection of these to do a smash cut off in the future.

NiNi

So looking forward to it. Definitely looking forward to it. Absolutely looking forward to it. I named it Volume 1 for a reason.

Ben

We have nine shows to talk about plus a bonus segment. Because there are nine shows to talk about, we have brought in help for this one. We have brought in our drama expert, Shan, who is with us again.

Shan

Hello people.

NiNi

Ah, that sweet, sweet smell of a great guest. I love it. Okay, all right, let's dive in, people.

Ben

All right. So, Shan, we're finally into the winter. Let's discuss the fall shows as an experience. As you know, I was grumpy as hell coming out of the summer through the fall with the state of BL. 

How are you feeling about all these various shows?

Shan

Your grumpiness was not unfounded. I don't think the fall season was particularly strong. We hit a slump. A lot of shows just flopped right at the end after strong starts, a lot of shows just didn't take off. There were some things that we were really excited about and then when we actually got to them it was…just so fucking disappointing. [laughs]

I think the strong start to the year and some of our expectations for these shows maybe set us up to be a little extra disappointed in how the season went.

Ben

Before we get into all of the shows individually, NiNi, for the sake of our audience, who may want to skip around this episode, please read the list of shows we're about to discuss.

NiNi

[clears throat] Don't mind if I do! So, in this episode we shall be discussing Kiseki: Dear To Me from Taiwan, Dangerous Romance from Thailand, Love In Translation also from Thailand, I Cannot Reach You from Japan, My Personal Weatherman also from Japan, If It's With You also from, you guessed it, Japan, Absolute Zero from Thailand, My Dear Gangsta Oppa from Thailand-ish, and Middleman's Love the most Thai thing I have seen. [laughs]

Ben

All right. So we're going to be here for a while. I hope you grabbed your drinks and a snack.

NiNi

Put us on pause. Go pee, come back. Or you could just take your phone to the bathroom. Whatever you're doing, I'm not judging you.

Ben

I am, don't worry.

[NiNi laughs]

00:04:20 - Kiseki: Dear To Me

NiNi

Alright, let's start with Kiseki. Ben, what is Kiseki about?

Ben

It's about how nothing was learned from HIStory 3: Make Our Days Count, and that once again I have been made to suffer for things I did not do. 

Kiseki: Dear to Me is a Taiwanese BL about a well-performing high school student late in his studies who gets wrapped up in the gang politics of his local area, falls in love with a gangster, and complications ensue? There's a side couple that's also a bunch of gangsters who end up stealing the show.

Shan

[laughs] I was going to say, I'm pretty sure this show is actually about Ai Di, but okay.

Ben

It is a Lin Pei Yu joint, and we were expecting so much more from her, and yet here we are talking about it in the Grab Bag.

NiNi

Mm-mm-mm. So, Shan, come on in here. Give me, like, a word or a short phrase—something pithy—for the audience.

Shan

Hmm… The pithy description of this show? “Chaotic, but in an awesome way.”

NiNi

Interesting…

Ben

I will agree with that. This show was fun as hell to watch when it wasn't enraging for me.

NiNi

[laughs] I don't know. I was watching it and literally losing the thread while I was watching it.

Shan

Your mistake was ever trying to grasp the thread in the first place.

NiNi

You right, you're right. I made a mistake. My bad. I shouldn't have tried. But—[laughs]—the show was clearly trying, so I thought I had to try, too. 

Listen, I often find Taiwanese shows hard to follow, personally, and I know that's a me thing. But it's something about where they choose to start and end their episodes, I think. I lose the thread.

Ben

I do agree with that. I don't think that, at least the BL tradition we've been exposed to, values episodic structure in a way that is recognizable to those of us who are probably grounded in the American sitcom tradition. A lot of their shows, we tend to remember as a whole, not as individual parts, and that did not work very well here. 

You were not the only person struggling from episode to episode remembering what the fuck was going on. I struggled as well. It was difficult watching this show because I didn't really know thematically what the show wanted to be about. While I really liked the work everyone did—I think all of the actors at every level were really dialed in and it was fun for some of the cameos. I will never return to this particular show because this show involves Wayne Song and Huang Chun Chih as gangsters who are rivals with the leads we care about. 

They have Wayne playing this super-violent, kind of out-of-control gang leader who has to die, and he does, and this is a bad choice because it's not like the rest of us fucking forgot about HIStory 3: Make Our Days Count, and then they released a special episode that is just, “By the way, Chun Chih's character was mooning after him the whole time and now he's sad.” Why? Why was this the choice? Have you not learned that we don't want you to kill these guys? Shit!

NiNi

I think definitely the cameos across the board lost me—A, because I don't watch that much Taiwanese BL, so a lot of it was like, “Wait, who's this guy? Who's this guy? Who's this guy? Why are they here? What are they doing?” I recognize a couple of faces from a couple of things, but mostly I was just confused.

Shan

This show was like 50% powered by cameos. That is what kept people excited week over week and talking about the show. Spotting the faces was really fun. 

So, NiNi, as the resident Taiwanese BL apologist around here, you are absolutely correct that it is often hard to follow the story. The writing is always the weakest point. What has always been my favorite thing about the shows we get from Taiwan is that there is a real connection, I think, between the physical stuff, the intimacy work, and the emotions of the characters, and they kind of really nail those relationship dynamics and that kind of character work. 

But the stories—the plots—have always been kind of a mess, even in my favorite Taiwanese BLs? And this one really took the cake. It was all over the place. I could not at any point in this show, find my footing in the plot, or what was supposed to be happening, or why I was supposed to care. 

That didn't really bother me because this is definitely a show that encourages you to just be along for the ride, and kind of react to scenes, and not worry too much about the overarching story. And that worked for me in this show enough that I had a good time. Would I say that it's good or well written? Absolutely not. [laughs] 

And Ben's complaints about the way that they used those actors from Make Our Days Count are absolutely valid. I kind of couldn't believe the audacity, putting Wayne Song in the show just to kill him off.

Ben

Audacity is the right call, bestie. Thank you very much.

Shan

Right, the audacity! Like, it was not a cool thing to do, and they shouldn’t have done it. So those criticisms are completely fair about this show.

NiNi

There are things about this that I absolutely liked. I did enjoy the couples. I enjoyed the unhinged-ness of them, but I couldn't follow their story, so I was just kind of vibing—which, totally my style. And when I was just vibing I was havin’ a good time. 

If I had to score Kiseki: Dear to Me. The couples are great, the story’s a mess. I'd give it a 6 ½.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

I gave it a 7.5, which was probably generous because I just had so much fun watching it, but I can't claim that it is structurally sound.

Ben

Shan, like the rest of MDL, rated this show with her coochie.

NiNi

That is staying in.

[all laugh]

Shan

What did you score it, Ben?

Ben

What do you think I scored it, bestie? 

Shan

I feel like you scored it real low, because you were pissed about Wayne Song. [laughs]

Ben

I was pissed.

NiNi

Ben was definitely offended, so it got a 5 or less.

Shan

Oh yeah, for sure.

Ben

What do you think I gave it?

Shan

3.

Ben

NiNi

5.

Ben

I gave it a 5. We're laughing a little bit, but legitimately that was so upsetting. And your show was stupid! There wasn't even a point to it. It was just shock, and it felt mean, like you're still salty with us about the HIStory franchise. You are not getting above a 5 from me, despite the fact that Louis Chang and Nat Chen were so much fun to watch, and how much I enjoyed the work between Taro Lin and Hsu Kai. I had a great time watching all four of these men and all the people who cameoed in this.

NiNi

Why do you think there was no Tang Yi and Shao Fei?

Ben

Because there's a cash grab for doing HIStory 6: Freed.

Shan

I want HIStory 6: Freed, and I want it fucking yesterday. Where is our show? [Ben laughs]

NiNi

Alright, so Ben gave it a 5. I gave it a 6.5. Shan gave it a very generous 7.5. Somebody do math.

Ben

That's a 6. 

Shan

You can call it a 6.

NiNi

It's a 6 for Kiseki: Dear to Me. Shoving it off, let's move on to the next one, which we are about to trash.

00:12:20 - Dangerous Romance

NiNi

Ben, tell the world about Dangerous Romance.

Shan

Oh, ho ho ho! Here we go!

Ben

Dangerous Romance—[sighs]—is about how a windmill… cannot be powered…without the wind.

[all break down for prolonged laughing fit]

NiNi

Please! I can’t stand your ass! 

Shan

Had to be done.

NiNi

Okay, bring it back, guys. Bring it back.

Ben

Dangerous Romance purports to be an inter class romance set in a high school between a very smart scholarship student who's super poor, because his parents are dead and it’s just him and his older brother, who's kind of irresponsible with money; and a rich kid who's kind of a pompous bully in school—has no valuable skills of any sort to bring to the table. The two of them crossed paths and are drawn to each other. There are things that happen in the show, I guess. Soccer is a big deal, at some point in this. There's very much a repeated High School Musical TROYYY bit that happens multiple times over three episodes.

[NiNi and Shan laugh]

NiNi

Oh, God, you shady bitch. Carry on.

Ben

It's trash. This show was fucking horrible. This show started out being so fucking interesting. There was the whole notion about Kanghan being just a stupid as hell bully, who only had money on his side, who was getting wrecked constantly by Sailom, this very smart, poor kid. 

And then after episode 2, it all went away, and it was about how Kanghan is a sad rich boy whose mom is dead. And so because his mom is dead, his dad just spoils him rotten, and he just wants his dad to treat him like a real boy, or whatever. I don't give a fuck. This show was so fucking trash. 

[NiNi laughs]

Shan, you're a fan of Shameless. Please explain to the people why this show was so offensive to you.

Shan

For the record, I think I dropped this show Week 4, because I was just so fucking pissed [laughs] about what they were doing with Sailom. 

A little background here: I grew up as a poor person—lived in poverty for like the first 20 years of my life. And I have always had a big interest in stories about class disparity, stories about surviving poverty, stories about families that get through those kinds of challenges because I lived it. And so I'm always very interested to see how it's depicted in fiction. So when the show started, I was so thrilled to finally see a Thai BL that seemed to be taking class disparity seriously? That seemed to want to explore what it actually means when a wealthy person and a poor person are kind of thrown together and have to figure out how to get on the same page across their differences. 

Sailom had some really serious shit set up for him. Him and his brother are in really hard times. They're in deep, deep debt. He's working multiple jobs to try to pay off this debt that they've inherited, and he has this fucking rich bitch bully on his ass, causing him problems, fucking with his jobs, fucking with his money, spreading rumors about him, costing him work! 

I think a lot of people who fell for this show maybe forgot—but I sure fucking didn't—that Kang spread rumors that Sailom was a fucking pedophile, and cost him all of his tutoring students. This is not minor shit that they set up at the beginning of this show to explain the adversarial relationship between these two characters. So I expected them to take it seriously. I expected this to be a serious narrative about how those two could get past those conflicts and come together in a romance—which obviously they were going to. But, that's not what we got at all. 

We didn't get a realistic look at what it means to be poor and to be living with a crushing debt that weighs you down every single day. We didn't get a realistic look at the dynamics between somebody who's grown up like Sailom with the experiences that he's had and the issues that he has to carry every single day, and how he might think about someone like Kang and how he might view him with disdain, and with resentment. We didn't get any of that. We didn't get a realistic look at how these two could come past the initial bullying and the initial things that Kang did to fuck with his life and his money. 

This is life-or-death stakes. They showed us that. Him and his brother are actually getting beat because of this debt on a regular basis. This is not a light issue. And so to set up all of that in the first two episodes, and then immediately pivot, by the third episode, to a bog-standard BL with these two just kind of flirtin’ with each other, and doing all the classic tropes, and Sailom apparently just fucking forgetting all the things that Kang did to him because of one isolated moment? 

None of it made any sense to me. I felt like they flipped a switch and changed Sailom's character from episode 2 to 3, and he never came back. I stopped watching the show in episode 4, but I continued to follow the discourse, so I know that the real Sailom never came back. 

I just don't understand what happened with this show. I don't understand how the same writers could have written those initial episodes and that set up and then carried out the show in the way that they did. I actually found it offensive. I am still pissed off about it! You can hear it in my voice, I'm sure! This was not a joke to me. I was very upset with what this show did. It's inexcusable.

Ben

Kill ‘em, bestie. [laughs]

NiNi

Murder them.

For me, the problem—the main problem with the show—was that the show was about Kanghan and it should have been about Sailom. That's really it in a nutshell. If the show was about Sailom, if it was about Sailom being the main character and you getting into Sailom’s head, and seeing Sailom’s life through Sailom’s eyes, and seeing how Sailom deals with his life, then that's the show that I wanted to see. 

You're talking about the serious shit that's going down. Kang literally shows up at Sailom’s house with a gun! Have we forgotten about this?

Ben

After his friend said, “Bruh, I think the whole gun thing is maybe going too far.”

NiNi

None of these characters are consistent. The characters that are set up in the beginning, the ones that you are interested in, the stories that you think, “Okay, this is what they're setting up.” None of that happens. Those characters vanish basically overnight. 

Saifah was set up to be this kind of charming, feckless older brother who can't be relied upon, but Sailom really loves him. He works with old people, and he kind of steals from them, and scams them a little bit. That's an interesting character. And then one day his debt collector sends a new guy, and the new guy is somebody he went to high school with. And I was like, “Well, this is about to be interesting!” [buzzer sound], I was wrong. No, it was not interesting.

Ben

It's really frustrating, because there's actually a fairly decent small plot in the middle of the show where Saifah has schemed his way into working for the same family. He's been dealing with a work related injury, and the grandma pays for some expensive European medicine for him. He doesn't realize this is for him, and he thinks about stealing it and replacing it with a generic. There’s a really interesting moment where he chooses not to steal from them and then learns that it was a gift intended for him, that is this really decent moment in the show which only further pisses me off. 

Every now and then, this show seemed to understand some of the complex dynamics it was about, and then went right back to fuckin’ it up for no reason.

Shan

I think NiNi is right that the main problem was that the show should have been Sailom’s show and instead they made it about Kanghan, and I don't know why they did that. The first two episodes were clearly rooted in Sailom’s story, and that's what really, I think, threw me.

Ben

Chimon is also the older, veteran actor. Why didn't they believe in him? Like, he could have carried this show. I do not know why they decided to lean on Perth. This is the second time this year they have tried to lean on Perth and it has not been a good choice.

NiNi

I think that Perth is a good actor but he needs a strong lead. He's a follow, but he's a good follow if he has a strong lead. Trying to put him in the lead position? He works best when he's pulling off of somebody.

Shan

Mhmm. If they had let Chimon anchor this, and him follow, I agree with you, NiNi.

NiNi

And then why did they even bother View and June? Why did they make them get out of bed?

Ben

Ohh, are we talking about the teacher-student line between View and June? I'm not.

Shan

I'm so glad I was already gone for that! Whew! I don't even want to know.

NiNi

It wasn't even a thing, though!

Ben

I'm not discussing it, I will not.

NiNi

Listen, honestly, the best parts of the show were, A, the first two episodes, B, everything that Euro did? Euro was great. I loved Euro.

Ben

Okay. I will say that. Let us not walk away from this without shouting out Euro. They do not give big boys a lot of love and respect in this field and, Euro. You did good work, sir. You should have been allowed to kiss—which of the twins was in this?

NiNi

I think it was JJ.

Ben

JJ! You should have been allowed to kiss JJ in this show!

NiNi

I also did not hate Marc and Pawin in this. They were not bad.

Ben

They were not good. [laughs]

NiNi

I didn't say they—I said I didn't hate them, and they were not bad.

Shan

Damning with faint praise indeed.

NiNi

And you know how I feel about Pawin!

Ben

The problem with this is, again, like the pieces were there. But, did you know that a windmill—[all laugh]—cannot function without the wind? If you're tired of this bit in the podcast, watch the show!

Shan

You can only imagine the horrors awaiting you.

Ben

There's a class difference between Kanghan—did you know his name means ‘windmill’?—anyway. 

And so there's a class difference between the two of them. And there's a class difference between Nawa, Pawin's character who's rich, and Guy, Marc's character who was poor. They're friends with the other leads. There was a real opportunity to tell a story about, how do these dynamics play out where people mix? There's an egalitarian aspect to all going to the same schooling system together, even if some of you are there by scholarship, or because your mom works for the place in the case of Euro's character Auto. Marc's character Guy, he's probably there on a football related scholarship because he's an athlete. 

Like there's an interesting thing to say here, but they did nothing with it. It is such a waste of all the goddamn talent on this show, and it was a waste of 12 weeks of my life. This show was bad. This show was offensive. And this show was stupid.

All right, ratings.

NiNi

I gave it a…5.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

Well, since I didn't actually finish the show, I didn't give it a formal rating, but y'all should know that it's, like, a 2 in my heart.

Ben

It is a 3 formally from me. I watched the whole fucking thing. It was shit and offensive. You get a 3 for that.

NiNi

So with 2, a 3, and a 5, I think that pulls you down towards the end of 3.5. 

Ben

Oh yeah, it's bad. 

NiNi

It's not good.

Ben

It's a 3. 

Shan

Do not watch it.

Ben

Unless you need to understand that windmills require the wind to function.

NiNi

[Laughs] Oh, no.

Ben

And let's talk about the fucking ending of this trash piece of shit. The tag of this show is these two characters engaged in sex work play where the poor kid is playing an escort who has to take care of his rich client. 

What the absolute fuck was this?

NiNi

I wanted to vomit.

Shan

I actually can't believe that happened. I saw it. I saw the GIFs on Tumblr, and I thought I was having a fucking hallucination or something.

NiNi

Sex work role play…Okay, anyway. So, on that note—

Ben

It's a chop!

Shan

Well that was a definite chop.

NiNi

Chop.

Ben

Three chops. [slams desk] It's over.

[NiNi laughs]

00:26:05 - Love In Translation

Ben 

On to the next show—oh, good, it finally gets better. [laughs]

Shan

This is a good one!

Ben

All right, great. 

NiNi 

The next show on the list, now that we've gotten that out of the way, is Love in Translation. Ben, what is Love in Translation about? 

Ben 

Love in Translation is a workplace BL in which two characters from different backgrounds come together to run a convenience store in Bangkok. One of them's name is Phumjai. He is a Thai national who comes from a seemingly well off family, who is obsessed with an idol named Tammy. He learns that Tammy is interested in picking up a potential partner in Thailand, but she wants that partner to be able to speak Mandarin and she would like for that character to also be an entrepreneur. Seeing that there's a chance here with Tammy, he decides he wants to formally learn Chinese and goes to a, like, small business association meeting or whatever, to see about starting something up. 

Meanwhile, we have Yang Yan Feng, who is a Chinese national who is here to open up a shop in a very specific point because of backstory reasons involving his dad, I guess. The two of these characters cross paths and don't end up liking each other at first, but circumstances come together, and the only Black character in Thai BL this year ends up connecting the two of them and they form a little shop together. Yang agrees to also teach Phumjai Mandarin and flirt with Tammy on his behalf. Very many hijinks ensue, but this show ended up being one of my favorites of the year. 

Shan, you ended up really enjoying this show. Tell us the things you liked about the show in the early weeks when we were deciding whether or not we needed to give ourselves La Pluie-level brainrot over it to convince people to watch it. 

Shan 

It ended up being really enjoyable. I was a little bit more skeptical going in than Ben. I'm not as inclined to sitcom style in BL as Ben is. Like, I think you kind of find it very comforting and familiar, whereas I kind of feel it's sometimes an awkward match of styles, and so I wasn't quite as convinced going in that I was gonna love it. But I enjoyed it a lot, and I think what I liked so much about this show is that, at its core, it's really just about kind people who are mostly just doing their best to be decent to each other and do right by each other. And they have misunderstandings. And there's a lot of comedy in those misunderstandings. There's silly stuff. There's fights, including physical fights that get pretty outrageous. There's characters making mistakes, but it feels like everybody's really well-intentioned and really earnestly trying their best. And I just think it's kind of impossible not to like a show like that. 

I also just really appreciated that this show—it had a good cast of characters. There was a lot of quirky folks. When I was watching it, I was reminded of shows like Superstore, where it's a little bit sitcom-y, you're in a store, you've got this big cast of personalities that you can kind of call on for comedy bits, as needed. And I thought it worked really, really well. 

And the romance between Phumjai and Yang, it was really nice. They just kinda liked each other once they got past their initial misunderstandings, and they got more comfortable with each other over time as they worked together on this project—on this store. They really got to know each other. 

Phumjai was fixated with this influencer Tammy originally, and he had a really natural progression away from that crush and toward developing feelings for Yang because of the authentic time that they were spending together and the real bond that they were building. And I always just find those kinds of romances really compelling. They're making something together, and that makes them want to be good to each other, and it makes them see the best in each other, and then become interested in each other. And I just think we don't get enough naturally building romances like that in the genre. 

Ben 

NiNi, since we successfully bullied you into watching this show, what did you think of it? 

[NiNi laughs]

NiNi 

It was deathly cute. I enjoyed every single minute of the show. I liked the internationalist perspective of it because you've got Odo and then one of the workers in the store, I think, is part Thai? And then Yang is Chinese, so there's some fun internationalist stuff happening in the show that you don't always see coming out of Thailand. Ngern was there. 

Ben 

Oh, are we talking about that now? For those of you who give a shit, who have been in the genre before 2gether the series, who were there before even SOTUS, Ngern Anupart, who played Earn in Love Sick the series, and also played the lead role in Waterboyy the movie, and was in a terrible Thai drama called Part Time this series, which we all attempted just for him. 

Shan 

Did you memorize that man's resume? 

Ben 

Of course.

NiNi 

He did. 

Ben

Ngern Anupart is back with us in BL, and he's swole now, girls. You should watch. 

[NiNi laughs]

Shan 

I will say, I'm a Love Sick girlie. I did love Earn, the character in that. I love Ngern, the actor. I was very happy to see him in this. His character was perhaps the most annoying in this show. [laughs] 

NiNi 

I loved it! 

Ben 

It was so funny that he was so annoying! I loved him in this! 

Shan 

He played Phumjai’s brother, Phojai, who was a classic overbearing older sibling who just could not let Phumjai have any space to live and learn and make mistakes. He just was so on top of him all the time and making him lose confidence in a way that I think was well-intentioned, but just extremely wrong-headed. Just getting in the way of his brother's success as he was constantly professing his intention to do the opposite. It was a really good storyline, to be clear, like it was really well done. 

NiNi 

It was really great and the other great part is that the whole time he's dating Phumjai’s good friend who also works at the store, and they're kinda working together to make the store a success in the background but they're doing it all wrong. Phojai and Tag are adorable together, but Phojai’s a little closeted. So it gets a little complicated. But overall, it ended up being real cute. There is a fantastic gag with some disguises that I swear to God was so hilarious. 

Ben 

Highlight of the year for me. [laughs]

NiNi 

This show was funny. It was sweet. It was… pretty hot, actually. 

Shan

Right! High heat.

Ben 

This show does comedy really well. The comedic timing of this show is so intentional. It was intentional when they were filming it, and it was intentional when they were editing it. It isn't perfect, but it's intentional and it lands really well. This show was so funny in the early episodes when it was leaning more into the sitcom bits. 

NiNi 

I found it funny all the way through, because I always find some of the humor in the pathos that comes later down the line. Like it was so funny when Phumjai and Yang went on the practice date because Phumjai is getting ready to go on this date with Tammy. And he's going on this practice date, and all he's thinking about on this practice date is, “What does Yang want to do?” 

So he shows up at the practice date with green bread, a baseball mitt, like. [laughs] That's like, so much going on, and I'm like looking at it like, “Oh, this is so sweet and so funny because of course he would bring a freaking baseball mitt because he thinks that Yang would have a good time. This is adorable.” 

And then the end, when Phojai gets kidnapped—follow us, girlies. Phojai gets kidnapped because Phumjai is paying off this debt—there's a little mafia shit going down in the end. But Phojai gets kidnapped for, like, months, and then when they finally pay off the kidnappers and they've released Phojai, you discover that Phojai has actually been kind of running the shit in the mafia for the last two months! [laughs] He’s become, like, a trusted lieutenant. 

Of course you took over, because you are an elder sibling. This is what you do. You got them organized. You made them respect you. I respect that as an elder sibling myself. I was just like, “That's exactly what I would do.” It was so funny. I enjoyed it entirely all the way through. I did not mind Daou’s wig. 

Shan 

Thank you! Can we talk about the wig? This is very important to me. 

[NiNi laughs]

Ben 

No, because first I have to get very serious about how good the show actually was. We will undercut the seriousness of which I will talk about how good the show was with you talking about how terrible Daou’s wig was. 

[NiNi laughs]

So, for those of you who listen to The Conversation podcast, you know that NiNi and I don't always see eye-to-eye when it comes to really huge power dynamic differentials between characters. This show is one of the very rare examples of a workplace set show where the workplace mattered and also the leads were equal to each other. One of the caveats of Thai economic politics is that foreigners cannot hold majority stake ownership in a Thai corporation. So despite Yang's wealth that he brings to the table and determination to open up a store in Thailand, he cannot have majority stake. 

Phumjai, who doesn't bring any money to the table, brings the fact that he is a Thai national to the table. So the two of them have equal ownership in the store—Phumjai slightly has more. We think Phumjai might be a bumbling idiot, but when asked to hire people because Yang, even though he has business sense, he doesn't know anyone. Phumjai actually hires competent people to help out in the store. Yeah, sure, he hired a bunch of femmes, but he hired really competent people to work in their store, and was actively engaged with trying to make the store successful. He was doing rapid iteration of various marketing strategies to try to get customers to engage with their store. He doesn't use the formal language that Yang does, but he is trying his best, and bringing even his own little money he has to try and make the store’s opening as successful as possible. 

His interest in Tammy is also grounded in something real. We thought he was just lusting after an idol, but he had had a weird meet-cute with her when she had visited Thailand as a tourist. She asked him just to show her around because she was a little bit lost, and he basically went on a date with Tammy when she first came to Thailand. So his crush on her wasn't grounded on just the persona she presents in her show as an idol. He had had a genuine interaction with her and connection with her. And when he finally approaches her properly, Tammy is also receptive to his advances. Sure, they get complicated by the fact that this is a BL and she's a girl—she can't win. But she also takes that in stride. She is a character that is not dismissed along the way despite being a girl in a BL. 

This show was legitimately so good at managing its character dynamics and how the characters played with each other. The growth between Yang and Phumjai together and personally was really well handled. This show struggles a little bit on the back end by getting a little bit silly with Yang's debt and the [sigh] mafia shit, but legitimately, this is one of the better shows that aired this year. 

Now let's talk about Daou's wig. 

Shan

Thank you! I've been holding it in so bravely. 

[NiNi laughs]

Shan 

Listen, listen! This is about respect. I need to pay respect to Daou, because that man had to wear this monstrosity of a bowl cut on his head. This horrible wig. The sideburns looked so fake. Every time you got a slight angle on the wig, you could tell that it was just a mop sitting on his head. Somehow he managed to deliver some of the hottest scenes of the entire year while he had that wig on his head. And you know, I just think that that deserves recognition. 

Ben 

Let's talk about the hottest scene of the year. 

[NiNi laughs] 

These people recognized that this was a show set in a convenience store—

Shan

Mmhmm.

Ben

—and they said, “Offroad and Daou,” and they were like, “Yeah, what's up?” “We need you guys to knock down these fucking shelves in this fucking convenience store, banging it out, because it's definitely a kink thing for Yang.” And they said, “Bet.” 

Shan 

In front of the security camera!

Ben 

Yang absolutely has that footage saved somewhere. 

Shan 

[laughs] 100% he does. 

Ben 

I had an absolute blast with this show. This was legitimately one of my favorite shows of the year. 

NiNi 

I must concur, and I actually scored it a 10. 

Ben 

Holy shit.

NiNi 

And the reason I scored it at 10 was that at the end they turned the store into a workers cooperative. So that gets 10 for me. 

Shan 

Bonus points from NiNi. [Shan and NiNi laugh]

Ben 

All right, Shan, let's give it the real drama rankings. 

Shan

I gave it an 8. I loved the show. I had a great time with it. Is undeniably messy, and the writing really went off the rails in the final couple episodes, and I can't pretend that that didn't happen. But I really loved it. 

Ben 

I gave the show an 8.5. The writing does unfortunately get a little bit messy towards the end. They didn't really know how to do the epilogue episode as cleanly as some of the more experienced teams do. But that's me being, like, fair from the drama ranking scale. In my heart, this show is a 9. 

[Ben and Shan laugh]

This show was really good! It was a lot of fun to watch. People should go watch this show. It's a lot of fun. 

NiNi 

I am calling producer privilege to give the show a 9 from The Conversation. 

Ben 

I'm okay with it. 

Shan 

I'm good with it. 

NiNi 

We have an accord. Love in Translation gets a 9 from The Conversation. Daou and Offroad, thank you so much. 

Ben 

If you are a fan of BL, but you say you've gotten burned out on all of the school-based stuff, this is probably one of the better workplace shows. 

But, at least you know, that a windmill… 

[all laugh]

All right!

NiNi 

Moving on.

00:41:14 - I Cannot Reach You

NiNi

Our next show—we have officially reached the Japanese portion.

Ben

Bangers Only section of this episode!

NiNi

The first show that we're going to talk about is an absolute banger: I Cannot Reach You. Ben, what is I Cannot Reach You about?

Ben

Oh, Shan gets this one. 

NiNi

Shan!

Ben

Oh yeah!

NiNi

What is I Cannot Reach You about?

Shan

I Cannot Reach You Is a friends-to-lovers BL about two childhood friends who are in high school together, one of whom is a long-suffering pining gay boy, and one who is kind of an oblivious little chaos muffin. These character types might sound familiar to you, they are very common in Japanese BL. But what makes this story feel a little different is that it really sets out to deal with the deep angst that really comes in when you take friends to lovers seriously. 

This is not a fluffy show, even though it is light throughout, they're really digging into the pain of being in love with your friend, the confusion of feeling your feelings for your friend start to change, the shock that can come along with it. Kakeru, who is the main character here, learns in episode one that his longtime best friend Yamato is in love with him, and this whole show is about his journey to accept and understand that, and then also figure out how he feels about it and how he might be open to their relationship changing. 

It is, bar none, the best friends-to-lovers drama that I've ever seen in the BL genre. It is one of my absolute favorites of the year and on a short list of perfect shows that we got this year in BL.

Ben

NiNi?

NiNi

Well, damn. I love this unreservedly. I have, seriously, no notes. Actually, I have one note and the note that I wrote—I'm just gonna read it verbatim: I Cannot Reach You, to all of Japan, “Hey, guys, I'd like to introduce you all to this wonderful concept called talking. Please look at this adorable story about how talking can make your life better, and even help you find love.” [laughs] And that's my only note on I Cannot Reach You. 

I agree with Shan. I think it's a perfect show. It's so cute. It's so deeply felt. It is so centrally angsty. It had me deep in my feelings in a way that I have not really felt since His - I Didn't Think I Would Fall in Love, which is another Japanese banger that I love. It's a great show, easy to catch up on. It's not very long. It is so perfect. It's perfectly balanced, perfectly paced, perfectly written, perfectly acted. I love it, unreservedly.

Ben

This was probably one of the best shows that I have ever watched in all of BL. Very few BLs actually properly capture the experience of being closeted as a kid in a way that is not triggering. I was closeted—we talked about this on the show. It sucks. Ohara Yamato was in love with his friend Ashiya Kakeru, and he did not make his attraction to Kakeru something that Kakeru had to deal with. It's other people, who are so irritated watching the two of them interact, who intervene and sort of force them to deal with this issue between them. 

But here's the big thing. We can yell all day long about how characters should talk to each other and all this other stuff, and how communication is really important in romance and all these sorts of things. This is very true, but the thing is: when you're queer and you know the consequences of being publicly queer in this horrible, racist, homophobic hellscape, you don't want to force that on your friend. That's the crux of friends-to-lovers angst that is so critical. 

Yamato really does love Kakeru, and he doesn't want to force Kakeru to deal with being queer. They don't say it directly, but that is a huge part of the hang up here. That is so perfectly captured in a way that is not triggering. It is so hard to be gay and alone when you're a teenager. There is a real complex restraint that grips you when you're 17 and gay and struggling, and in love with your best friend, where you don't want to be alone, and you really want to be with your friend. But being gay hurts, and you don't want to be responsible for inflicting that hurt on them, that I connected to directly in Yamato, that is portrayed so, so well by Maeda Kentaro. 

And this show doesn't just do the whole “I love you” thing and then they make out or whatever. Like, “I liked you the whole time!” We watch Kakeru deal with the reality that he has to reframe his own relationship with one of his closest childhood friends. And he ends up finding attraction in himself as well, and he goes through the difficult process of that. That is not a switch that turns on. It's like, “Oh, shit, I guess I'm gay now because your desire for me is so strong.” What this show gets correct is, when you have a friends-to-lovers story, there's the drama of, “This relationship is really important to me, and most romances fail. Do I want to lose one of my critical relationships that underpins my understanding of who I am as myself for booty?” The answer in a lot of cases is no. That's a scary threshold to cross—your bestie is not your partner. 

He considers what this means for their friendship and their relationship, and how there is a genuine need to respond to someone's feelings. That, even if he is your best friend, the way that he's felt like this about you for a long time means you can't just pretend that that wasn't there the whole time. Just because you were wrong about what you were perceiving in your friend doesn't mean you can just bottle it up and walk that shit back. It's so expertly handled in a way that is adorable. 

Like both of you describe the show as cute, and that's sort of the point. This show managed to make some of the most difficult things about coming of age and being queer kind of palatable, and adorable, and really interesting to engage with. And it's so well done, the way that these boys play out the complexities here. 

And then we get to Episode 6, and Shan will remember when Episode 6 aired, because I almost called her on her personal phone line after I finished Episode 6. 

[NiNi and Shan laugh]

Shan

He was like, “sound the alarm, holy shit!” [laughs]

[NiNi laughs]

Ben

I was like, “Shan, There's a BL emergency! Get home quick!”

Shan

I was waiting to watch it until we had all the episodes and he was like, “Nope, no more waiting! Get on it right now!”

Ben

Episode 6 is probably the best single episode of BL of the whole year. Kakeru has a lot of self doubt as part of his character—really well executed—and he expresses that he can't understand why Yamato might like him, and Yamato gets angry about this, and is like, “Don't you know what you're worth?” and he throws Kakeru on the bed and has this moment where he crosses the line with him. And you can see possibly years of restraint breaking, and he kind of scares Kakeru. When he gets his senses back, he scares himself and flees, and has this whole breakdown where he despairs about this. This is so perfectly executed because that's how it feels when you're in the closet and you make a mistake and reveal yourself.

Shan

What's wild is that, that's just the end scene of episode 6. Episode 6 does so much shit even before that. This is the episode where Kakeru and Yamato have this conversation on the roof, where Yamato confesses. At this point they both kind of know what's going on, but Yamato comes right out and says, “This is how I feel. This is what's going on.” And then he does the classic BL thing of immediately after confessing, he tries to walk away because he doesn't wanna stick around to be rejected. 

And, something amazing happens in that scene, which is that Kakeru is like, “Hey, bitch, get back over here! You gotta listen to what I have to say now. You don't get to just confess and then run away.” And I was, like, fist pumping when that happened because it was, first of all, just a brilliant subversion of a classic trope. And he says, “I wasn't gonna reject you. I am still kind of processing this. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet, but I want to think about it. You're important to me.” And I just love that. 

Like NiNi said earlier, “Wow, the power of talking to each other instead of just having your emotional outburst and then running away—actually trying to communicate.” And that's so much of what this show is about. The moments where these two characters are able to communicate with each other clearly and get their real feelings across, that is when they are able to make progress in their relationship, and there are lots of characters in the show who are reinforcing that along the way. 

Hosaka is probably the fan-favorite character. He's kind of the wise queer kid off to the side. He's got his little barrette in his hair. He's watching, he's perceiving, and he's really pushing—quite forcefully, actually [laughs]—the two lead characters to, like, talk to each other and get their shit together. 

My personal favorite side character is Yamato's sister: Mikoto. She is just this quiet presence who has always had her brother's number on this, and knows exactly what's going on, and really chooses her moments to show up and be a mirror to him of what she's seeing, what he's doing, and make him think, and even give him some courage. She even has a couple scenes where she does the same for Kakeru. She's a great sister character of a type that we don't get to see very much and I really appreciated her.

NiNi

This show’s a banger. There's no reason not to watch it. Watch the damn show.

Ben

This show also released the sexual tension in a way that J-BLs very rarely do, particularly not in this lane of J-BL.

Shan

And it did it beautifully. 

And I feel like we should talk a little bit about the visuals of this show. I'm not someone who normally even notices a lot of visual style. I’m a words person. I really am pretty dialogue-focused, and I don't usually notice a lot that's going on with the visual effects in the show, but this one used them so effectively that even I kind of keyed in.

Ben

So this show uses a bokeh effect, which is this thing where you play with the focus of the camera to make these blurry lights appear. This is very common in anime to show that a character is experiencing heightened emotion. Like the emotions are sparkling out of them, and the show color-coded the boys's visual effect to reflect when they were experiencing intense emotion. It’s very obvious to the audience when the moment turns for Kakeru. Yamato is bursting with emotion from the first goddamn episode, and when it starts to happen for Kakeru, we're finally—“Oh, finally, these bitches are both on the same page.” 

The other fun visual gag in the show is, very early on there’s this moment at, like, an arcade or whatever, where Yamato gets a stuffed animal for Kakeru, which is part of him thinking he wants to be with this girl. He ends up keeping the stuffed animal and the stuffed animal ends up becoming the audience stand in. So, like, whenever a moment happens between the boys, they cut to the stuffed animal whose arms they've moved to create a different expression—him either being, like, overwhelmed with kilig feelings about the boys being cute, or aghast feelings [laughs] about something untoward suddenly going on. It's a great running visual gag.

NiNi

This show is awesome. It gets at 10. What were you guys’ scores?

Shan

Perfect 10, baby!

Ben

For those of you who don't know, NiNi and I are far more loose with our 10s than Shan. Shan is a stingy bitch when it comes to 10s.

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan

Understatement. I have watched over 400 dramas. I have given out eleven 10s total, but this show is one of them.

Ben

I also gave this show a 10.

NiNi

Okay, so I Cannot Reach You gets a 10 from The Conversation and we are on to the next one.

00:54:43 - My Personal Weatherman

NiNi

The next show that we're going to talk about on this what is definitely going to be a monster episode is My Personal Weatherman. Who wants to take this one? Ben or Shan, who is telling us what My Personal Weatherman is about?

Shan

Ben’s definitely gotta do this one.

Ben

My Personal Weatherman is a very kinky BL where a local weather forecaster has a live-in boyfriend who is an erotic manga artist. They have a very Dom/sub, and they are not very good at talking to each other. They actually do say a lot to each other in this show. They just constantly misunderstand each other—very refreshing for Japan. Segasaki is the weatherman who provides for them. Yoh is the manga artist who is very much struggling. Yoh sees himself as kind of a slave—he doesn't really necessarily enjoy the sort of housewife role he's been placed into, and resents that they seem to only have sex when it [doesn’t] rains? 

He pretends like he doesn't want to have sex with Segasaki, but then he has a whole blow up because they end up in a sunny [rainy] season where it doesn't rain a lot and has a whole breakdown episode where he just masturbates furiously for a whole afternoon because they haven't had sex in a while. It's a very fun reveal that the reason why they don't have sex is because that's what Segasaki thought they needed to do, which has really good payoff in, like, the next episode or two later. 

This show was a little bit complicated to talk about and watch. This very obvious kink dynamics going on in this, but people who are more familiar with Japanese home dynamics say some of this is actually fairly normal for husband and wife dynamics. And the show ends a little bit abruptly, which is part of my consternation with it. I kind of liked a lot of what the show was doing. I unfortunately watch too much BTS stuff, and it was revealed that some of the things that were going on with Segasaki were kind of improvised by a Higuchi Kohei, who plays Segasaki, which I think muddles some of the messaging of the show. 

But before we get deeper into that sort of stuff, NiNi, I know I bullied you to watch the show, and Japanese BL is not always your forte—reactions and thoughts on this show?

NiNi

So you're right that they are communicating, they're just willfully misunderstanding each other. I found that incredibly frustrating. But I still like the show. I did. I did like the show. I think that the miscommunications that they're having, because they are talking and miscommunicating that way, I am less annoyed by the miscommunication. If they were just not talking, it would be like a completely different thing. 

And then I like the settings. I like the side characters. I like the main characters. I like that Yoh cannot cook and Segasaki loves to eat his food anyway. Yoh’s a terrible cook, like terrible, like— [laughs] it's so bad, and Segasaki literally eats everything that Yoh will make with a smile on his face because he loves him so much.

Shan

He ruined a curry. I don't even know how you do that.

Ben

That's really impressive. Curry’s so easy. His curry was crunchy! Gurl.

NiNi

I think the thing that I'm not sure comes across, but in your description of the show, is that they've been together for a while. This show stretches on a little bit. It shows how they ended up together?

Ben

One of the things we got clarification on is like their cohabitation is fairly recent. The offer was made when they were still students, but the cohabitation is recent.

Shan

Which we didn't find out until almost the end of the show.

NiNi

Segaki thinks that he's being clear with Yoh. Yoh, because of, I guess, self-esteem issues or whatever it is is completely misreading the very direct words I think that Segasaki is using, but Segasaki is also being direct, but not entirely clear. So it's not that it's easy to misunderstand, but you could see how misunderstandings could happen. Yoh is kind of withholding even if he's saying things. 

Segasaki is picking up a completely different kind of thing from what Yoh is saying, because he thinks that they're in a loving relationship, while Yoh thinks that they're in a weird master-servant dynamic. So, they're in a relationship. They're just, they're in two different relationships. And so they're talking past each other. 

Yoh doesn't understand why Segasaki won’t be certain affectionate ways with him, and the minute that it becomes that Yoh actually expresses that in a way that Segasaki understands, he completely changes the way that he behaves towards Yoh. And he does do that softness and affection and stuff with him because he didn't know that that was what Yoh wanted. He thought that what he was doing was what Yoh wanted. It's similar to how Yoh is reading Segasaki. 

I found it interesting. Frustrating, yes, I will not deny that I found it frustrating. But I found the way that they chose to deal with the miscommunication trope, which is a big trope that Japan uses—which is a lot of times why I have trouble with Japanese BL, because miscommunication frustrates the shit out of me—but I think that the way that it was used in this show was very clever, and I liked how they move past it. I think that how they moved past it was also very interesting. 

So yeah, I think the show was pretty good. I would score it highly.

Ben

Shan, thoughts on the show?

Shan

So [sigh], sometimes, in BL fandom, I think that we as an audience latch on to the idea of a show, and then kind of give a show credit for our idea of what it's doing instead of what it's actually doing. And this is one of those shows for me. It's not a fave. 

I liked a lot about the show—a lot of the things that NiNi just mentioned—I thought were interesting. Like, miscommunication trope is not my favorite, but it's hugely Japanese for cultural reasons, for language reasons, so I'm very used to it—and I've seen really good executions of it. This show, I feel, did not have the quality of writing that it needed to support the complexities of what it was trying to do with these characters. And that showed through a lot, there were a lot of cracks in this show. 

You kind of alluded to one earlier, Ben, about how there were—what I perceived while watching—there were some inconsistencies in characterization in Segasaki in particular. And we learned from the BTS that that actually probably was an actual inconsistency, because it wasn't in the writing, these differences in how he was appearing in these different time periods. It was something the actor was just trying out on his own, and they kind of just let him do that. 

There were lots of instances of dropped threads or missing context to understand the characters' reactions and things. I read some awesome gap filler, thoughts, explanations, and interpretations of what we could make of the characters behaving in certain ways. To use an old Internet term: that's called ‘fanwanking,’ and that is when the fans of a thing have to do a lot of extra work to figure it out and explain it because the show has not done that work itself. And that, for me, was kind of the bottom line with this show. It didn't do all of its work, and I think that a lot of us were so intrigued by the premise—were so into the visuals of the show, liked the pair, liked the characters enough, to fill in those gaps and still really enjoy it. But for me, the show didn't get to the level of quality that it was aspiring to, and it didn't quite work for me, in the end. 

On top of some of those gaps that I think were kind of there throughout the show. You said earlier, Ben, I think, that it ended abruptly. It's not just that it ended abruptly, it didn't finish its story. It felt very unfinished. To me it felt like an intentional grab for a season 2—a play to try to get the fans wanting more so that they could maybe get funding for a season 2? And hey, if that's what they're going for, power to them. I hope they get the money. I'd really like to see them finish the story. But, I would have liked more if they would have actually finished the story initially that they were trying to tell. This show for me, it tried some things. It was interesting. It was enjoyable to watch.

Ben

[laughs] She said, “Girl, you tried.”

Shan

It’s a little bit of a Girl, You Tried for me! I'm not gonna lie, it is!

Ben

Here's what I'll say. I don't think all of the pieces of the show work together as seamlessly as they wanted them to. However…I don't care. [laughs] 

I liked what the show is trying to do. I really liked the really messy relationship between them. I like that Drama Shower went with a show about two people who are trying to be together and failing miserably at it. I do like what the show was attempting to do. I find myself far more forgiving to the show because it was trying things that BL doesn't do very often. I also just really liked episode 4, where Man-san comes to their house.

Shan

Yes, let's talk about Man-san, best character in the show. [laughs]

Ben

It was one of my favorite moments of the year, the bit where she knocked at the door and Yoh panics, and Segasaki’s  like, “Oh so she’s here?” and he starts stretching. He's like, “Don’t worry.” Like he’s ready to fight this woman [NiNi laughs] who he believes that Yoh was having a secret romance with on the side, and then the door opens and—she's been a Segasaki stan for a while. And they have this really great comedic overlay of [laughs], “Oh my God. I'm at my idol's house.” And all he does is charm the shit out of her for the whole episode, and piss Yoh off because he thinks Segasaki's flirting with her. 

I had so much fun with this show. This is the closest I come to a vibes rating. I tend to be forgiving with shows that are trying things that are fresh in the genre—or at least underexplored. And so, we’re mostly rating this show on the fact that it executes high heat in a believable way, for the most part, and was generally a really watchable eight weeks. I had a lot of fun with this show.

Shan

Mmhmm. I hope they get their season 2. I wanna see them finish it.

NiNi

I ended up giving this an 8. I think it was pretty good. The parts that I liked I really liked, and the other parts were just kind of a meh for me. ‘Meh’ is always going to be worse than ‘bad,’ for me anyway, unless it's offensive. So it drags it down from what could have been a 9 to an 8 for me. 

Shan, how about you?

Shan

In a shocking twist, I gave it a higher score than NiNi. I gave it an 8.5. Maybe because I, like you, Ben, appreciated what it was trying to do and wanted to give it a little credit for that.

Ben

I gave My Personal Weatherman an 8.5. So it can get an 8 from The Conversation. It's fine.

NiNi

So My Personal Weatherman gets an 8 from The Conversation, and on we go.

01:07:01 - If It's With You

NiNi

Our next show that we're talking about is If It's With You.

Ben

Oh! We're back to bangers! Let's continue!

Shan 

I got it!

If It's With You is about Amane, a high school student who fucks… You want me to say more than that?

Ben

No. You are correct, bestie, and this show is perfect. 

[NiNi laughs]

This show opens up with a high schooler having ill-advised sex with an older character, who's about to move to the countryside with his grandma. And his last hookup is like, “It's been really fun tearing that ass up. But maybe, when you move to this little, small seaside town, you can have a normal high school romance.” And he scoffs at the notion of someone like him ever having a high school romance, but little does he know he's in a five-episode MBS BL, and that's exactly what's in store for him! 

And it's great! He moves to the little seaside town. He immediately runs into a really hot guy who's super sweet, falls for him, and it ends up being mutual.

Shan

I like that this show is a twist on the classic romance trope of goin’ to a little seaside town, meetin’ someone unexpected, fallin’ in love. Like, there's hardly a more classic romance trope—we've all seen it a million times. But what was nice about it is that we had this young character who was already kind of jaded, and just didn't think that love was something he was interested in. And we got to see him form a really genuine connection with somebody—that was initially based on thinking he was hot and wanting to fuck him. Yeah, Amane definitely wanted to have sex with Ryuji. He made it kind of clear. 

One of my favorite things the show did was Amane is not in the closet. He's not ashamed of who he is, and he made sure that Ryuji knew, first that he was gay, and second that he wanted to be physically involved with Ryuji. He told him that straight up, and kind of braced himself for rejection because, as we learned, he had been rejected for that in the past by other friends. And then we get to see Ryuji react to that, and process it, and be like, “Okay, that's cool. I don't know that I can really reciprocate that right now, but I want to keep hanging out. Is that alright with you?” What a cool response to that. What a way to be, Ryuji, I love that! And then we got to just see them build a relationship from there. It felt very genuine.

NiNi

Amane is one of my favorite types, which is a masking sad boy. He's a sad boy who is pretending to be happy, and pretending to not care. Basically, he's putting on this front of being carefree when he's actually a very sad, very hurt boy, and Ryuji clocks that immediately and tells him, “Yo, you don't gotta do all of that around me. It's fine if you’re sad.” At that point I was not only in love with the show, I was in love with Amane. 

In fact, my only critique of the show is, I think, at the very, very end it pulled its punch. But… basically, Amane is one of my favorite characters of the year, and there's so much about Ryuji, too. Ryuji is a kid who's lost his dad, and he works with his mom in the restaurant where his dad used to cook. Literally, his dad is the one who taught him to cook, and now he cooks in the restaurant, and sometimes he doesn't go to school because he has to work in the restaurant, and his house is a little chaotic. But there's one corner where his dad's shrine is, which is spotless. 

Guys, if I start thinking about this show too much, I'm actually gonna cry. I think the show touched me somewhere very deep, and it's a thing that I'm still thinking about, even if, as I said, I think it pulled its punches a little bit at the end, it stayed with me. Also, some of the greatest set design. Y’all know I love Japanese set design. It's a fantastic example of set design.

Ben

Continuing the conversation we had with I Cannot Reach You about how it's very difficult to be gay when you're young. Amane tried to have the youth thing that Heartstopper indicates that we could potentially have, and Amane is crushed for it—the way many of us are crushed—accidentally! The best thing about the way Amane gets crushed is that his friend crushes him without realizing he did—excellent gay angst. Top tier. I feel the old wounds festering. It's great. 

NiNi

[laughs] Why are you like this?

Ben

[laughs]

So Amane is not well, and he's doing what many of us do: he skips it. Gay people who are closeted do not get to have high school romances. We don't get used to people perceiving us and what it means to be a couple. We skip so much of this, and then you become an adult, and these anonymous hookups—that are not very meaningful—and they can feel weird, because you're trying to be vulnerable with someone, and they don't want that. And it sucks to try and have intimate moments with other gay people that feel like transactions. It makes you feel cheap about yourself, and Amane understood that. And he's gorgeous. He's a funny, thoughtful, heartfelt little boy, and he already thinks he is just someone else for other people to hook up with.

Shan

I just want to say NiNi’s right that they pulled their punch at the end, and it's why this show isn't perfect for me. I loved it a lot, but the show started, as we’ve mentioned, with a character for whom sexual intimacy—sexual desire—was a big part of just how he lived, how he thought of himself, what he liked to do. And I don't like it when shows explicitly or implicitly imply that serious relationships, true love, do not have a sexual component. That sex is something salacious and dirty, and that love is something pure. And I think, because the show pulled its punches at the end here on the sexual relationship between Amane and Ryuji, I think that's a little bit of the implicit message that they put out there. And I don't love that. So I do have to ding them for that. They didn't finish strong.

Ben

I do agree in that regard and it was very unfortunate for this show that I Cannot Reach You finished, like, two weeks later. [laughs]

Shan

It really didn't help this show that I Cannot Reach You came up on its tail and did it better.

Ben

I really like the show. I really like the way that it set up a very initial premise of “maybe you should try a real romance, kid.” Like, you're still a kid. You can still have a good romance. It doesn't matter that you failed once: A great message to all the little gays out there, old and young. You can still have worthwhile romance. Shiro got to have a great relationship with Kenji at like 47!

Shan

There it is! I've been waiting for it! It's amazing! You made it two hours without it. Two whole hours before you did it.

Ben

I was trying so hard, bestie. I really was. I was really trying not to mention What Did You Eat Yesterday? in this episode. [laughs]

NiNi

I knew once we hit Japanese BL, it was only a matter of time.

Ben

I was trying so hard, y’all. Like, they were talking about the way this man couldn't cook, and I was like, “Ooh, I can't mention What Did You Eat Yesterday?” 

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Y’all got me so conscious about my favorite show! They dragged me, y'all! They ate me up! They tore me to pieces! 

But seriously, in terms of, like, messaging, I agree. They muddled it a little bit, but I really like Amane's arc. 

It's good! One of my favorites of the year. Let's go around the room. Ratings! NiNi?

NiNi

I give it a 10.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

I gave it a 9.5.

Ben

I also gave it a 9.5. I think it is a Conversation 9.5 because we all agree that it muddled the waters on Amane’s relationship with sex as it pertains to Ryuji.

NiNi

I concur. So, it's a 9.5 from The Conversation for If It's With You.

01:15:38 - Absolute Zero

NiNi

And now we are into the shit. [laughs]

Ben

Oh, oh shit! Oh fuck! It's two hours into this! I have almost finished my daiquiri. I am drunk. 

[NiNi laughs]

Let's talk about Absolute Zero!

NiNi

You're gonna get exactly three minutes on Absolute Zero, okay?

Ben

Oh, sure, that's all I need.

NiNi

I'm not letting you get into another New Siwaj thing. [laughs] Should be easy, because I didn't watch it, and Shan and Ben did not finish it. Ben, tell us what Absolute Zero is about.

Ben

Absolute Zero is a time travel BL in which a gay man in his 30s… No, he's technically 26. Oh my God. A 26 year-old gay man! His partner, who he lives with, has an accident. He's in a coma. He's having a bad time. And then a magic taxi takes him to the past, and then he does nothing for six episodes except date the younger version [laughs] of his boyfriend, and confuse the fuck out of them. And then apparently a bunch of time travel nonsense happens after this, and I had to be forcibly dragged off of this show [Shan laughs] because the clowns were worried for me. 

We don't need to talk about the show. Shan, you don't need to talk about it? NiNi, you don’t need to talk about it. I'm gonna look directly into the camera. 

[NiNi laughs]

New Siwaj, you had multiple opportunities this year to do something meaningful. I have had to sit here across from NiNi for over a year as Tee Bundit has put out three different shows, 2 and one half of which I thought flopped in one way or another. [Shan laughs] You had multiple opportunities to give me something useful to talk about with NiNi on this podcast, and you failed me, sir. 

This was your chance to do Until We Meet Again-style BL again, and you should have given us all something sad and melancholy to reflect over as a real good capstone of this year and you [starts yelling] fucking blew it for all of us! 

I cannot believe you, sir. You've wasted so much of our goddamn time. I cannot believe you embarrassed me on this podcast like this. 

[NiNi laughs]

Shan

New Siwaj is having whatever the opposite of a renaissance year is. 

NiNi

Ooh.

Ben

So bad. Like, you should have thrived under these circumstances. This is your bread and butter: caring way too much about little shit, but you didn't get any of the big shit right. This was a terrible experience. Literally, only two other people we know of finished your goddamn show.

Shan

And they hated it, every minute!

Ben

They had nothing positive to say about it. For over two months, this was horrible. What an absolute waste of genuinely good talent at every level of this production. Reportedly, everyone gave decent performances, and you wasted them on this empty drivel. What the fuck was this? You had four years of having the rights of the story. You had the actual writer of the novel on staff helping you write the goddamn script. And it was still this stupid empty mess, which apparently ends at none of it really occurring, but everyone having some sort of form of temporal PTSD? Like this was a 12 week Star Trek episode? What the absolute fuck was this?

[NiNi laughs]

Shan

I have nothing to add. 

NiNi

Hydrate, baby, hydrate.

Ben

Oh, girl you know I got my water right here. 

This show gets no rating from The Conversation. We DNF’d this show. We will never be going back to this show. 

I will allow the rest of you to offer additional commentary. Proceed.

NiNi

So, Ben, is this breakup gonna stick?

Shan

Yeah, right. 

Ben

We have talked about this girl. 

[NiNi laughs]

He's got a whole college BL with all of the B- and C-listers at GMMTV coming out in the spring. I gotta watch this fucking shithow, don't you worry. 

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

Shan

There never has been a break up, and there never will be a breakup. Let’s just be clear.

NiNi

They’re the couple that fights in the street, and then the next day they're all boo’d up. I hate you so much.

Ben

We are what they thought they were doing with Cher and Top in Only Friends.

Shan

Mew and Top.

NiNi

[laughs] I’m so mad that you called it Cher in Only Friends!

Ben

Oh, Mew and Top. Right, right, right, right, right, right. 

[NiNi laughs]

It gets a 0 from The Conversation!

Shan

An Absolute Zero.

NiNi

An Absolute Zero.

Ben

Oh man, I didn't make another windmill joke during If It's With You—If It's With You is about how— [laughs]

A windmill!

[laughs harder]

NiNi

I am so done with you. I am moving on. We are moving on.

01:21:05 - My Dear Gangster Oppa

NiNi

We're moving on to—I am just calling it ‘the main event.’

Ben

No, no, I'll do it, because you have to describe this one. You're gonna take this L, bestie.

[NiNi laughs]

On to our next show: My Dear Gangster Oppa. NiNi, tell us about [laughs] My Dear Gangster Oppa.

NiNi

My Dear Gangster Oppa is the B-movie’s B-movie. My Dear Gangster Oppa is a Thai BL based on a Korean webtoon that I have not read—because I never read these things—but I do know that it's based on a Korean webtoon, so I get a point for that. It is about the titular gangster oppa, Tew, and the titular dear, Guy. 

They meet playing some kind of mobile game virtually and they somehow become sort of close, or at least close enough that when the gaming team decides that they're going to meet in real life, all the other gamers are like, “Guy, you ask Oppa to come to the meet up, because he'll come if you ask him to.” Well, at that point they thought it was a her because Oppa plays with a female avatar because of reasons.

Ben

Naive assumptions.

NiNi

[laughs] The point of the matter is Oppa’s a gangster, like legit—guns, beatings, stabbings.

Ben

He has murdered people!

NiNi

He has absolutely killed people, and Guy is just a sad gay boy in love with his bestie since high school… 

I'm sorry guys, I'm doing a terrible job of describing the show.

Shan

It's not you, NiNi, it's the show!

Ben

I'll back you up. It starts off as a show about gamers, and two of them falling for each other, and then decides to become a shitty mafia BL.

NiNi

[gasps]

Shan

A boring mafia BL.

Ben

There it is. It becomes a boring mafia BL.

NiNi

Shan and Ben are stabbing me through the heart right now. I just want to let you, the listeners, know.

Ben

Well, how about you climb over the wall wearing your kneepads and drop onto—[Ben and NiNi laughs]—the mattress?

NiNi

That's why it's a B-movie’s B-movie, Ben!

Shan

No, listen. NO!

NiNi

Okay, the show had—the show had ideas.

Ben

Did it?

NiNi

It had ideas. Some of the ideas were really good. The execution of the show is terrible. Some of it is terrible. I—okay, it's all terrible by accident. Like none of this is done on purpose. Do not get me wrong. It is very, very bad.

Ben

They hired the most juiceless boys, and then pretended that they had juice. That was not good. Like if you had— 

Oof. I have my own read. Finish talking about your little show you had fun with before I cut it to pieces.

NiNi

This show is not good. It's not good. I am not defending it on any type of quality grounds. I just enjoyed the fuck out of it. That's all I'm saying. It was trash. You could see all the seams, as Ben has intimated. You can see the stuntee's knee pads and elbow pads. You can see them throwing themselves off of things and falling onto the barely-hidden mats. Oh my God, it's so bad. It's so bad that I laughed my ass off for eight weeks. I'm sorry, I had a good time.

Shan

Let me give NiNi some credit. I just binged this show this week, and I was genuinely having fun with it for the first half—the same vibe that NiNi’s talking about. Like I was, like, “This is hilariously bad, but it's kind of funny.” 

[laughs] We have to talk about the bright orange scar makeup. 

Ben

Do we?

Shan

Did they not have red or black in their makeup kits? They put these fucking neon orange scars on him [laughs], and it was the worst thing I've ever seen. But it’s like, that kind of shit is funny, it was a good time. But the show's biggest sin to me is not that it wasn't good. It was never going to be good. It's that it got so fucking boring, because it abandoned all the funny elements—the fun and silly and wacky things it was doing in the beginning with, like, the gamers—and treating the difference between them in some ways so seriously, and in some ways so deeply unseriously. That dichotomy was kind of fun. 

But then in the second-half of the show, it becomes all about this fucking mafia plot, and it was terrible. Like, it—it was terrible because it was so boring. The energy just sucked straight out of the screen every time I had to sit through these long ass scenes of Oppa talking to these different mafia guys about what they were mad about and why. I never gave a single shit. It was horrible. And that is why the show pissed me off, because it was fun, and then it decided to just be this dull nothing. 

This show, like Oppa, needed to quit the gangster life.

NiNi

[laughs] When I tell you, I actually screamed. Like, my sister had to come check on me.

Shan

It was all downhill from that line. That was the peak of the show.

NiNi

[laughs] How dare you? The show had a budget of $47.18 and it spent all of it on that scar prosthetic.

Ben

I watched this with Aiden, who you may have heard on the I Told Sunset About You episode. Aiden could not remember Tew’s name, and once he started wearing those horrible suspenders [laughs] Aiden just started calling him Urkel for the rest of our watches. 

NiNi

Now you see, that's fun.

Ben

Shan refused to learn his name and just called him ‘Oppa’ the whole time.

Shan

I stand by it.

NiNi

It's the B-movie’s B-movie. It's like B-exponential, like B-to-the-power-of-B. Okay, I'm sorry. I am that girl.

Ben

You heard many a Gay Rant from me over the last year. New rant unlocked for The Conversation: Gamer Rant.

NiNi

Oh, no.

Shan

Oh, boy.

Ben

We don't talk about this on the podcast, but I have a very long history of being very involved with a very specific video game. I have deep and meaningful relationships with other gamers. I was the best man at a gamer wedding where sixteen of us showed up. We were deep at that wedding—we had our own goddamn table. And I showed up as the only representative at a smaller wedding to make sure that one of us was present to witness the event. 

Gaming relationships are so important to me because when you're a weirdo and you don't fit in, It's easy to become close with people very quickly online because you're anonymous. They don't know anything about you. This show ends up abandoning all the interesting things about this weird collection of people who had found each other through this game, and decided to meet up together and extend that relationship into meatspace, to then become the weirdly worst mafia BL we've seen in a while, which was so twisted because the show clearly likes action film, and then embarrassed itself trying to mimic them. And clearly cared about violence, because Tew has a legitimately violent history that is handled with far more seriousness than even something like KinnPorsche did. 

There was so much that was way more interesting than being a shitty action schlock BL that this show could have been by starting with the gaming component, and it was legitimately infuriating for me to see this show use it as a cheap way to say these guys know each other, to then do nothing interesting with the mafia shit. 

I hate this show, so much. This is one of the worst shows we watched this season because this show could have been a fun action schlock B-movie if it was a fucking movie. But it asked for eight fucking weeks from me. I spent eight hours with this motherfucker—I had a lot of time to think about this shit. This show sucks way more than it even realizes that it sucks, and that's really the sad part about it all. This show is one of the worst [laughs] shows I watched in this season and I hate it.

NiNi

Shan, Ben is gamer offended, among other things.

Shan

I do think this show would have been a lot better if it was about the gamers instead of about the mafia.

Ben

There was a real opportunity for them to just only talk about their team stuff and for all of Tew’s gangster shit to be lore going on in the background, cause when you're hanging out with your homies online, their real lives are lore. Like, NiNi is in school. That means nothing to me.

[NiNi laughs]

“Is she gonna be present for this show? Oh, wait. No. She's gotta worry about, like, her real life stuff with her family or her school or our podcast. Well, shit, NiNi's busy. I guess I can't bug her to watch this tiny Taiwanese BL that I really like. It's not that important.” 

Shan does really cool shit in her real life. That means nothing to me! “Shan, are you available to watch this Japanese BL that I really like?” That's all I care about.

Shan

Always bestie, always.

Ben

That's the point. Gaming friendships—we don't really know what people do in their day-to-day lives. Like it would have been legitimately funny if Tew was, like, never lying about shit. Like, “Yeah, we just had a really weird stuff. Like, a guy came into the store. I had to, like, beat the shit out of four guys. I might have killed one of them. Whatever. We got rid of his body.” And they would be like, “Haha! Whatever! It’s time for practice.” If they had legitimately focused on whatever gaming shit they were concerned about and all of Tew’s mafia shit happened in the background as just fan fiction we all made-up, this would have been a fucking excellent show. 

But instead it was this disaster that ended up offending me way more than I expected it to. Fuck this show! 

On to Wahl, who was one of the characters I hate the most this year. Oh, I got words for that motherfucker. Don't think we're getting out of this recording without me going off about Wahl. Fuck that dude. I hate this dude so much. This character is not redeemable to me. Wahl only cares about Guy at the point at which Guy remains under his control. And the grossest thing this show did was have him accept that he can no longer control Guy, and then imply that he ends up with another guy at the end to perpetuate this cycle he has. He is so fucking vile. I hate him so fucking much.

Shan

I would just like to say that I concur on Wahl. That guy fucking sucks, and I hated him from maybe the second episode.

Ben

As soon as he did that stupid seal dance, I was like, “I hate this man!” [laughs]

Shan

You are done.

Ben

I'm like, “That's not even a whale, you stupid son of a bitch! Get outta here!”

Shan

He was a shitty friend, and as always, I got salty about him being forgiven without having to pay any consequences for his shitty behavior.

NiNi

We all agree that Wahl sucks. [laughs] We can agree on that. [laughs]

Ben

Does anyone have anything else to say about this terrible show before we move on?

NiNi

I am continuing to defend it. I will give it a 6.5.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

I gave it a 5.

Ben

I gave it a 4.

NiNi

So, Shan, by The Price is Right rules, you win [laughs] and the show gets a 5.

Shan

Feels right.

01:33:32 - Middleman's Love

NiNi

Moving on to our final show, and the one we all just finished today—well Ben and I finished. Shan watched the beginning and the end, which I think is a delightful way to watch this show.

Shan

I am very happy with my choices.

NiNi

So we all watched Middleman's Love. Yes, you might have heard me say on an earlier episode of this podcast that I would not be watching Middleman's Love. However, you should mind your business, because just because I said it doesn't mean it's happening.

Ben

I say I break up with New Siwaj every single season of the show. [NiNi and Shan laugh] It's whatever. We don't care.

NiNi

So I watched Middleman's Love, and I have actual real thoughts. But first we gotta tell the people what Middleman's Love is about. So, Ben, take it away.

Ben

Middleman's Love is a spin off from Bed Friend. Jade is a middle child and used to being overlooked by his family and his friends. They've got some interns at work. He doesn't realize that his intern has an enormous crush on him, and so is using his fudanshi eyes to try and hook him up with another intern, and slowly comes to realize the intern actually has legitimate feelings for him as we unpack Jade's own hang ups as it comes to love. 

While there are a lot of things I ended up enjoying, the show attempts to be comedic in a way that was really divisive and it ends up being kind of a mixed bag. Bed Friend is a really dramatic show, and while I don't think all of us currently here agree about how well Bed Friend did these things, Middleman's Love as a really comedic tonal shift doesn't always work because they're relying on Yim to be comedic as Jade in a way that makes you ask legitimately as Shan likes to say, “Why would anyone want to fuck this man?”

Shan

[laughs] Well, I did wonder why anyone would want to fuck this guy.

Ben

And that is honestly a legitimate question to ask early on in this. This ends up getting a little bit of Cheewin’s stuff—and I’ll let NiNi have that part—’cause she's much kinder to Cheewin about this than I am. But that's basically the gist of it. Jade is a middle child who's used to being overlooked and playing supporting role to other people who comes to realize that he can have love, too. 

NiNi, your thoughts on the show?

NiNi

That's it in a nutshell. I have a lot of thoughts on this show because it helped me clarify a lot of things about Cheewin. 

Now I get to say some lore and some BTS stuff because I know things too, Ben. This was originally cast with Jimmy and Tommy, with Tommy as Jade and Jimmy as Mai.

Ben

That would have been way better. [laughs] That would have been way better!

NiNi

Hold on. Hold on. Let me finish. While I think that Tommy would have made a better Jade, I actually prefer Tutor’s Mai to what we probably might have gotten out of Jimmy. 

I have a lot of Cheewin feelings about this show, because some of the things that I enjoy about Cheewin is that he likes to examine artifice and performance, and the things that we're hiding when we put on these big personas and personalities. And he explores that through a lot of sometimes-cringey humor, which I really like. It's the Secret Crush on You thing. It's certain parts of Make It Right. It's certain bits of Bed Friend? 

Basically, Cheewin likes to look at artifice and then puncture it. Cheewin likes to look at what makes people present weird and unpack that, and he likes to unpack that using sex because I think that Cheewin thinks—and I kind of agree—that sex is a revelatory experience. I suppose you can hide while you're having sex, but it's incredibly difficult, especially if you feel something for the person that you're having sex with. I personally find it interesting to watch that. 

I think that this show was miscalibrated, and not just in the acting or the tone. Unlike a lot of people, I actually do like cringe humor and some of the slapstick that we get in Thai comedy. I actually enjoy that stuff. It doesn't put me off. I think that the way that Cheewin uses humor in Middleman's Love is way better than how he used it in Bed Friend, and how he built it in Bed Friend. I think that the humor here, the comedy here, has done better. I think that Yim is not great at the comedy, and since Yim's character is the central character of Middleman's Love, it doesn't work. 

Plus, the story doesn't need eight episodes and Ben and I often talk about when something's too long, because I like a long show—Ben does not. This story was eight episodes and I think it could have been done in four. I like parts of the show. I like some of the things that the show is trying to do. I think that it mostly does not succeed.

Ben

Shan, you watched the first episode. [laughs] You were horrified by bobble heads in the intro—

Shan

[moans] I still have nightmares.

Ben

—and the general cringey humor. And then you came back for the finale. How about you talk about your experience with this show?

Shan

Definitely accurate to say that I bounced hard off this show after watching the first episode, and I definitely wasn't alone in that. In talking to other people we know who are watching it, a lot of folks had that reaction. 

NiNi has already touched on why—the humor was not quite calibrated correctly, and the performer who had to hold up the whole show wasn't really up to the task, unfortunately. That's just what happened here. And so, for some of us, I think getting through that super uncomfortable cringe humor with a performer who wasn't quite able to carry it was just really difficult. 

I struggled through the first episode. The bobbleheads really got me off on a terrible start. I hated those fucking things [laughs]—they still haunt me. And just throughout, I didn't really understand what I was supposed to be taking from the way Jade was being presented to me. He didn't feel like a real person. It was way too much. I didn't understand why this hot guy in the office was supposed to be looking at him with interest, given what we had seen of him. It just wasn't computing for me and I wasn't buying it. 

I didn't intend to fully drop the show, but then the following week I left on a long trip. And while I was gone, I missed the next three episodes. By the time I got back, I was just like, “You know what? No, I'm not taking this back up. I'm just gonna wait and see what you all told me after it finished.” And so, I kind of knew the show wasn't for me, but I wasn't opposed to the idea of it. I like an ugly duckling story. I like a story about someone finding their confidence and being able to accept that they are worthy of love. Like, that's a worthwhile story to tell. And so I'm not anti-The Middleman's Love. It just didn't quite work for me. 

The show finished this week. I decided to come back and watch the finale, just to kind of see where it landed, and [laughs] I actually think that was a great way to watch the show. If you, like me, are just not into the show's style and humor, you can watch the first episode and then you can watch the last episode, and you really won't miss any narrative beats—like it's super clear. The plot is very straightforward. You will be able to pick up in the last episode and understand everything important that has happened, and why the characters are where they are now. And you'll get to see Jade and Mai kind of settle into this relationship. 

And I thought that was nice. I enjoyed watching the finale. I liked getting to see a Jade who had seriously toned down some of the quirks of the first episode—a Jade, who seemed a little bit more confident—but still the same character. And I really enjoyed what they did with the physical intimacy in this episode. 

First of all, let me just give a cautionary note. If you are not watching this show on iQIYI, you are not seeing the whole show. I watched the finale on Gaga and got to the end and was like, “Where are these sex scenes that I heard about?”

Ben

The trust that Shan has in me [Shan laughs] she watched the whole show cut and was like, “Ben would never lie to me about sex scenes.”

Shan

You told me there were sex scenes in this!

Ben

“He used the Rihanna GIF. There is sex in the show.” [laughs]

Shan

And I will find it! So I did find it. [NiNi laughs] I went to iQIYI and I found it. So definitely watch it there. 

But I loved what they did with it because they really used the intimacy scenes well to convey these two settling into their relationship to convey Jade over time becoming more comfortable with their physical intimacy—finding his own power in it, finding his own agency in it. The performers did a great job on those scenes. I was incredibly impressed by it, impressed by the show's ability to take those characters from point A to B like that. 

If this show maybe wasn't entirely for you—if you, like me, dropped it in the beginning—I'd say maybe dip back in for the finale and enjoy a good time.

Ben

I like the idea of Jade a lot. I like the idea of a character who's had negative experiences feeling like he doesn't get priority from his family, ‘cause he's not the oldest and he's not the baby, not expecting a whole lot. And I like the idea of Jade having two really fucking hot friends in King and Uea, and just getting used to people being more interested in them, so not really seeing himself as a priority. And then he had like one relationship where he was literally told, “You were so weird and disgusting that no one wants to be with you.” 

I kind of get it with Mai. It structurally works. Mai is very pretty. He's generally very good at his job. He's kind of charming, but not overwhelmingly so. He's just naturally very pretty and nice to people, and fairly amenable and good at what he does. And he's really into Jade because he thought Jade was really kind and competent the first time he saw him. The flavor of this could have been correct, but then, like, they added way too much sugar. It’s just not great as a result. 

It's frustrating because Cheewin's ideas, as they're exemplified through the characters created for this show in Gus and Tong—and what he does with Jade and Mail—work really well. But the show is unfortunately really inessential. The people who watched this show were coming from Bed Friend, and I don't feel like this show really plays well as a Bed Friend extension or side story sort of experience. I think a lot of people brought the wrong energy to this show, and it took us weeks of recalibration to find something meaningful in it. And I don't think it finishes strong, because while I appreciate Cheewin’s giving the gays an extended boyfriend epilogue, an hour of watching people just be kind of cute boyfriends with no real drama on the table is kind of boring to watch in a TV show? And there's way more drama in watching people try to be boyfriends and deal with the consequences of actually being together. 

There's a great moment where they talk about their past exes and what that means for them, what they're bringing to the current relationship. How they want to handle drama going forward. I thought that was really good. I thought the fact that Jade asked for sex was really good, and then he got it. I don't approve of Mai biting that man's motherfucking glasses—

NiNi 

[laughs] I approve!

Ben

—and then tossing them around.

Shan

Ben, he licked his glasses off! Licked! [NiNi laughs] It’s a very important detail! I don't want you to get it wrong!

NiNi

[laughs] Shan, I don't know about you but personally I approve.

Shan

I did approve. I was very into that!

Ben

I actually liked when Mail wore the glasses in the second sex scene we got.

NiNi

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shan

A lot of good glasses material in these scenes.

NiNi

Top-tier, absolutely no notes, no complaints there, none whatsoever.

Ben

This show was a lot of fun when it wanted to be. And when it wasn't, it kind of sucked. NiNi, you don't spend a lot of time in the pulps, but My Dear Gangster Oppa and Middleman's Love? This is what the pulps are like. There are things that are worth talking about, and then there are things that are not. These shows are almost always kind of bad, but there's kind of something interesting that won't happen in the big network shows.

NiNi

I have been convinced into pulps before. I have enjoyed pulps before. We have discussed this before. I am not opposed to a good pulp, but it's gotta be a good pulp. The flaws of these two shows aside, I had a really good time with them, and I found things not just to enjoy, but also to give me a little bit to think about. Not like a ton to think about, granted, but they give me stuff to think about in both of these shows. And, for me, that's why I landed up more or less in the same place with them. 

I gave Middleman's Love a 7. I think that's a perfectly reasonable score for it.

Ben

I gave this show a 6, not because I think it's bad or necessarily boring, but as I've explained with my rating system before, a 6 means the show is not offensive but I really truly think the only people who gain value from giving this show the eight hours-plus that it asks for is people who really give a shit about BL as a genre.

NiNi

Shan, what about you? How are you rating your short version BL cut?

Shan

I mean, obviously I didn't fully watch the show properly, so take it with a grain of salt, but this feels like a 6 show to me. That's what my heart is telling me it's a six.

NiNi

I will allow y'all to fully average down to 6.5 under protest.

Ben

That's not how math works, but okay.

NiNi

Listen, we gave up on math a long time ago on this show. Okay, just accept it and move on.

Ben

I think 6.5 is fair.

NiNi

If you like cringe comedy, I'm not saying that this show does cringe comedy as well as some other shows have done cringe comedy. And I bring up here Secret Crush on You because it's by the same creator, and it is some pinnacle cringe comedy—like some fantastic cringe comedy—that is just not replicated here. But if you like cringe comedy, there's something in here for you. If you like Thai-style slapstick, there's something in here for you. 

That's all I'll say about it.

01:49:07 - Final Thoughts and Girl, You Tried

Ben

On to the final event: Girl, You Tried Winter 2023.

NiNi

So the Fall shows, there were some that tried and succeeded. They don't count for this award. Bye-bye, two-out-of-three Japanese BLs that we just talked about. So, My Personal Weatherman is in contention for Girl, You Tried.

Ben

Oh, then it wins.

NiNi

[laughs] Let's see what else we have here. We have Kiseki, which didn't try. Shan, do you think that Kiseki tried?

Shan

No, it did not try to be a coherent show. It cannot get the Girl, You Tried.

Ben

Thank you, Shan.

NiNi

So Kiseki is out of contention. Dangerous Romance sucked. It's not in contention for anything. Love in Translation is too good to be in contention for Girl, You Tried—that goes. Absolute Zero? Pfft, forget about it. My Dear Gangster Oppa, it definitely tried something.

Shan

Did it?

NiNi

I think it did. 

Ben

Hmm.

NiNi

Ben really just unmuted just to go “Hmm” and go back on mute. Okay, fine. It's going into contention. And Middleman's Love. I think Middleman's Love did try, and I think that the execution of it was off. Not that it was necessarily bad, but that it was off. So if I had to put a Girl, You Tried contest together right now, it would be between My Personal Weatherman and Middleman's Love. 

So, Shan, for you, very important vote now. My Personal Weatherman versus Middleman's Love for Girl, You Tried.

Shan

Oh, this is a hard one, ‘cause I think of the Girl, You Tried designation as, like, being for a show that got really close to being what it wanted to be—like almost got the execution right and then kind of just missed the mark. So for me, I think I'm going to have to give that to My Personal Weatherman between these two shows. I think it did have ambitions, and I think it did know what it wanted to be with clarity, and it just fell a little short on the execution. Whereas, I think Middleman's Love was a little bit messier and didn't have as clear of a vision of what it was doing?

NiNi

Okay, that's one for My Personal Weatherman. Ben, I already know your answer, but come on. Explain it to the people.

Ben

Hello, people. 

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

So when we were first planning this episode, the Girl, You Tried debate was between My Dear Gangster Oppa and Middleman's Love, but I didn't realize how much I fucking hated My Dear Gangster Oppa until we got here and I was talking about it. And I was, like, “You know what, actually.” 

I would have given it to Middleman's Love because Cheewin was trying to do the things that he likes to do, but now that you put My Personal Weatherman in contention, I gotta give it to that one. I think My Personal Weatherman is trying things that are harder to do than Middleman's Love. I think the ideas of that show are way more cogent, and easier to access and have a conversation about with people than something like Middleman's Love.

NiNi

Okay, so for me, if I had to choose who attempted the higher degree of difficulty, it would be Middleman's Love. It's a high wire act. It's so easy to fall off. If I have to think about who got closer to their intentions, I would say it's My Personal Weatherman. 

Girl, You Tried has a criterion, which is a strong premise with some sort of flaw/failure in the execution. But it has also become somewhat of a personal Rorschach test for us as we go through the shows, and attempt to unpack what it is that we think they did well, what it is we think they did badly, what it is we enjoyed and didn't enjoy. And that enjoyment component does have something to do with how we end up on a Girl, You Tried. 

If they're tied right now based on those other criteria, and I have to think about what I personally enjoyed more, I would have to give it to Middleman's Love. 

Shan and Ben outvote me. Boohoo. I'm gonna go cry about it.

Ben

I don't want to walk away from this particular recording pretending like I don't like Middleman's Love. The spirit inside of it is worth acknowledging.

Shan

I think both of these shows are worthy of talking about as shows that tried to do somethin’. I think for me, My Personal Weatherman just gets a little bit closer there and it's doing a little bit more.

NiNi

I think that's a good place to leave it, so that's going to wrap us up on Tens and Chops, our first ever full grab bag episode. So this is Volume One, hopefully with many more to come. 

Next up, the VIIB Awards. I'm looking forward to that. I'm excited. 

Anyway, we out. Say “bye” to the people, Ben. 

Ben

Peace! 

NiNi

Shan, say “bye” to the people.

Shan

Bye, people.

[aq2003]

I'm late to the game but, similar to much ado about nothing I'm intrigued by this twelfth night business! I'm not sure where to listen to the version you've been talking about though. All I can find are film versions.

you can listen to it here! and you can find an annotated ebook version of the play to read alongside it here. it's REALLY fucking good, probably one of my favorite shakespeare adaptations and not just because david tennant gave me malvolio derangements in it. it's just really excellently done - i feel like you can so easily imagine the setting and the characters etc SO well from the performances and the music

they split up and moved around the acts/scenes so i'll timestamp them for clarity here but imo the choices they made were all so effective! (for instance: starting with actually showing the shipwreck and viola and sebastian getting separated, then jumping right into act 1 scene 2 with viola and the captain. then act 1 scene 1 comes afterwards, with viola/cesario already being in orsino's employ. they're the one playing the music for him in the scene and they take up curio's lines. it sets up viola and orsino's dynamic all the more esp with orsino's first line being "if music be the food of love" - such a great adaptation decision!)

act 1 scene 2: 0:00-5:05

act 1 scene 1: 5:06-7:45

act 1 scene 4 (pt 1): 7:46-8:19

act 1 scene 3: 8:20-14:03

act 1 scene 4 (pt 2): 14:04-16:10

act 1 scene 5: 16:11-29:20

-

act 2 scene 2: 29:21-32:15

act 2 scene 3: 32:16-42:50

act 2 scene 4: 42:51-48:30

act 2 scene 1: 48:31-51:12

act 2 scene 5: 51:13-1:02:42

-

act 3 scene 1: 1:02:43-1:08:38

act 3 scene 2: 1:08:39-1:12:07

act 3 scene 3: 1:12:08-1:14:29

act 3 scene 4: 1:14:30-1:32:00

-

act 4 scene 1: 1:32:01-1:35:01

act 4 scene 2 (pt 1): 1:35:02-1:37:53

act 4 scene 3 (pt 1): 1:37:54-1:39:13

act 4 scene 2 (pt 2): 1:39:14-1:41:24

act 4 scene 3 (pt 2): 1:41:25-1:42:34

-

act 5 scene 1: 1:42:35-2:01:23

[how-about-some-more-whump]

The Victim’s Game 誰是被害者 S1 (2020) & S2 (2024) - Whump List

Notes: I compiled the two available seasons in one list considering it is very short and not whump packed. The main character, Fang Yi-Jen (in the center) is autistic: a lot of the whump is related to this matter, with him struggling due to autism or being bullied for it. Great acting, but be wary of some graphic stuff.

NB: Timestamps might be off (< 1mn) depending on where you watch the show. I do not disclose any character death on purpose. The characters are listed by chronological order of whump in each episode.

WARNING : This drama contains mental health issues and self-harm depiction.

SEASON 1: Fang Yi-jen, a forensic detective with autism, realizes while working on a serial murders case that his daughter, whom he hasn't seen in years, is linked to the murders. Determined to protect her, Fang Yi-jen starts working on the case by himself, hiding crucial elements to his already hostile coworkers.

------ EPISODE 1 ------

Fang Yi-Jen

0:41 Startled, intimidated by classmates

15:39 Stressed out, overwhelmed

30:12 Upset

45:31 Thrown out of a building, out of breath, wincing in pain (beaten off screen)

------ EPISODE 2 ------

Fang Yi-Jen

20:06 Upset, angry, overwhelmed, falls out of car

------ EPISODE 3 ------

Liao

28:15 Kicked in the stomach

------ EPISODE 4 ------

Hsu Hai-Yin

50:10 (In a flashback) Unconscious in a car, coughing, both of her parents are unconscious, calling for help

50:59 Upset, holding back tears

------ EPISODE 5 ------

None

------ EPISODE 6 ------

Fang Yi-Jen

29:55 Upset, isolating himself, overwhelmed

47:16 Tailed

------ EPISODE 7 ------

Fang Yi-Jen

9:25 (In a flashback) Fingers burned by chemicals

21:31 Wanted by the police, hiding, manhandled, arrested, handcuffed

24:50 Handcuffed, interrogated, angry

39:49 Teary eyes, upset, angry, yelling, crying

42:26 (In a flashback) Overwhelmed, yelling

52:00 Begging, jumps from a cliff

------ EPISODE 8 ------

Fang Yi-Jen

7:14 On a hospital bed, wound on his face, struggling to move

28:10 Sad, crying, apologizing

SEASON 2: After the death of his mentor, Fang Yi-Jen gets involved in two investigations, with one that took place fifteen years before. Fang Yi-Jen discovers that his mentor may not have been as righteous as he seemed to be.

------ EPISODE 1 ------

Fang Yi-Jen

0:30 (In a flashback) In an interrogation room, upset, angry, yelling, curling up, wounds on his face, stimming

16:14 In an interrogation room as a suspect

49:43 In shock, stimming

------ EPISODE 2 ------

Fang Yi-Jen

6:30 Chased by the police, manhandled, startled, agitated, running away

35:03 Chased by the police

Lin Ming-Cheng

53:48 Grabbed by the collar

------ EPISODE 3 ------

Fang Yi-Jen

0:05 (In a flashback) Interrogated, stimming, beaten up, taunted, scared, loosing his temper, angry

22:00 Fighting with a suspect, pushed to the ground, dazed

Chao Cheng Kuan

22:36 Fighting with a suspect, pushed, crushed by scaffolding, injured arm, arm in a sling

------ EPISODE 4 ------

Lin Ming-Cheng

3:16 At gunpoint, shot in the arm, in pain, panting, wound bandaged

Fang Yi-Jen

6:36 Upset, angry, overwhelmed

------ EPISODE 5 ------

Fang Yi-Jen

33:37 Worried for his daughter

------ EPISODE 6 ------

Fang Yi-Jen

15:47 Overstimulated, upset

Lin Ming-Cheng

50:45 At gunpoint

------ EPISODE 7 ------

Lin Ming-Cheng

4:54 Incapacitated, panting, sweating, threatened with a scalpel, scared, stabbed, pierced with a tube, loosing a lot of blood

18:01 Weak, sweating, feeling guilty, struggling to breath, blurry eyesight

26:21 Weak, panting, apologizing, shaking, scared, apologizing again, barely conscious

Fang Yi-Jen

41:30 At gunpoint

48:51 Tied up on a chair, wound on his face, apologizing

------ EPISODE 8 ------

Fang Yi-Jen

4:50 (Continued from previous episode) Still tied up on a chair, sweating, feeling sorry, tortured (fingers stabbed with a scalpel), screaming in pain, panting, upset, yelling, scalpel moved around in the wound, wincing in pain, apologizing

16:57 Unconscious in the trunk of a car, handcuffed, at gunpoint

19:19 At gunpoint

25:19 Shot, collapses, passes out

30:25 In pain, sweating, disoriented, worried for his daughter

34:25 Unconscious on the ground

___

Head to the WHUMP MASTERLIST for more whump!

[idlingintheimpalapodcast]

New Episode Alert: “It’s A Verse Before I Know It.” Interview with compo67, SPN FanFic Author

Good god y'all. We're kicking 2025 off with a bang. Kasey got to fulfill a fandom dream this week by talking to the incredible @compo67!

Grab snacks cos it's a long one this week. But hell, how do you stay succinct when talking to someone with this kinda bibliography? If you've been around for more than 5 mins, chances are you've read something by Cal. They've got fic for every taste & so many of them are full verses in their own right.

And you gotta stick around to the end to hear Kasey's utter shock that a reference they were sure wasn't actually a reference really WAS! (I promise it will make sense when you listen lol)

Listen on Spotify Watch on Youtube:

Chapter Timestamps 00:00:00 - Intro 00:02:52 - When did Cal get into Supernatural? 00:04:53 - Was there Supernatural bingeing? 00:06:46 - Cal’s intro to Supernatural was bumpy 00:10:27 - Is it Sam or Dean for Cal? 00:15:06 - Mystery Spot thoughts 00:21:20 - Some of Cal’s favorite characters 00:23:54 - Did Cal watch Supernatural to the very end? 00:35:12 - Does Cal have any canonical ships? 00:38:52 - When did Wincest click for Cal? 00:44:12 - When did Cal’s love of fanfiction begin? 00:47:46 - What came first, original fiction or fanfic? 00:51:33 - The Verse Virtuoso 00:58:34 - The Chicago Verse 01:01:16 - The richness and diversity of the Chicago neighborhood 01:02:08 - Has the show ending affected any of Cal’s story directions? 01:03:32 - The comfort of writing 01:06:17 - The breadth and bits of Chicago Verse 01:09:42 - Cal’s personal imprint on TCV 01:13:37 - It Takes Verse 01:20:19 - Big Bang Experiences 01:22:59 - Minutes Past Midnight Verse 01:24:42 - Voicing diversity and being inclusive in fiction 01:39:59 - Palo Alto Verse 01:46:46 - The ebb and flow of writing inspiration 01:50:21 - Deciding between Wincest or J2 01:52:47 - Fielding readers’ requests and making friends in fandom 01:54:59 - Have fic expectations changed in fandom? 01:58:30 - The highs and lows of the SPN fandom 02:01:16 - Does Cal have a favorite fic baby? 02:03:27 - The archiving of fanfic 02:05:52 - What writers does Cal fan over? 02:12:28 - Cal’s fanfic classic recs 02:14:09 - The Compo connection! 02:21:26 - Kasey’s last question 02:23:09 - The dino love comes full circle! 02:28:36 - Words of wisdom from Cal 02:35:49 - Final thoughts and Outro

[felassan]

I was sent a link to an ‘interview with Mark Darrah about BioWare and games’ video that I hadn’t seen before. it’s called “INTERVIEW | Former BioWare Dev Mark Darrah On Crunch, Electronic Arts, Unionization, & More" and [here is the source] link. the interview took place in 2022, so bear that in mind when listening, but it still has interesting insights and things in there. the video description reads as follows:

"Former BioWare developer Mark Darrah joins us for a talk about crunch, workplace culture, accessibility, Elden Ring, and much more." Timestamps: 1:31- Why did you get into game development? 4:12- Crunch 14:05- On Activision-Blizzard & corporate culture overtaking studio culture 15:50- Crunch continued 21:06- Toxic workplace cultures at game studios & why they’re tough to fix 29:13- Unionization in the games industry 36:36- Rising game budgets and why they’re getting bigger 48:00- Elden Ring and game budgets 52:59- Accessibility in games 1:10:38- Relationship between the creative and business sides of game development & corporate directives 1:14:43- Anthem 1:22:16- EA doesn’t understand what BioWare is 1:28:20- Indie development & being bought out by larger companies [source]

the rest of this post is under a cut due to length.

this post is just some notes and transcribed quotes of interest from the video, in case that’s of any use to anyone, for example for accessibility.

Dragon Age: Dreadwolf / 'current or recent general BioWare’

“The culture around crunch has been changing dramatically at BioWare for the last 7 or 8 years, but I would actually think that it’s maybe not the, I don’t believe that it’s the reporting [increasing reporting on crunch in the industry in recent years] that’s causing the changing culture at the studios. And the change in reporting is caused by something, there’s another cause for both of them. And I think it might be that we just have a development, people are getting more experienced, older, and I think that might be what it is. But I don’t believe that we were trying to improve crunch culture because Kotaku was talking about it or Jason Schreier wrote an article about what happened on Anthem. I don’t believe that’s the cause. I think that those are both symptoms of another cause, which is causing the change. And maybe it’s older people in game development, but actually, now that I say it out loud, maybe it’s actually the opposite. Maybe it’s Gen Z coming into the workforce with very different expectations of what work looks like that are causing the change.”

“I think BioWare may have abandoned it, but something that I was working on in sort’ve, the last couple of years at BioWare was Pile of Sand. And the idea of Pile of Sand is to focus the team on a single point or at least as small of a point as you can, and then use that focus to kind’ve cause things to come into being around that. And I know that there are people at BioWare who hate Pile of Sand, but it definitely causes Completion Urgency. In a way that nothing short of crunch or E3 has done very successfully.”

“I’d like to think that.. well. For sure BioWare’s culture today is way better than BioWare’s culture was in 1997 when I started. Or even see it like, you can even see it in the games. But, I mean, it’s not perfect, and there are people in more senior roles, or there have been people in more senior roles that are problematic, and as someone who worked to remove people who were problematic, it could be incredibly difficult to do, because usually there’s no smoking gun. Usually it’s reports or innuendo, or you know it’s, everyone kinda knows, but to actually have something actionable is really hard. And that sounds so terrible because it is terrible, because it is really hard – I’ve burned massive amounts of political capital in some cases to get rid of people who were toxic, but who were in very senior positions.” “I think what’s happened is [in the industry generally] the level of what’s being treated as acceptable has become way lower. Way less is acceptable, and that, I think, is a net good. Does that, is that how you want improvement to happen? No, this is not, you don’t want it to work this way, you want it to be a constant steady state towards better and better culture. And I think, you know, BioWare’s been trying to do that, but I think when other studios don’t do that and then a giant light gets shone on them it actually helps with other studios to say, you know, we also have to take a look at ourselves and think about what’s going on and look at our processes and our culture and our hiring practices and all of these things.”

The host asked how you go about setting that culture where you say, ‘these kinds of things aren’t okay’. “Are there techniques, rules, seminars?” Mark: “I mean, all of those things exist and, don’t get me wrong, I do think that BioWare, I do think that EA has done a better job of this than some of the other publishers and studios have done. So all of those things I do think help, but I do think that honestly the single thing that you can do that helps the most is to get someone of the group that is under-represented at a high enough position to have a voice be heard.”

The host asked about Keywords attempting to unionize recently. Mark: “I’m curious as to some of the details with the Keywords union, because back in 2020, when I was still at BioWare, which, where they’re saying like, they were forced into the office. I wonder if that was a BioWare, I don’t believe that that was actually a BioWare interaction, that it was a BioWare contract. Because at the time, at that time, early Covid days, I was trying to get into the office and it was like locked down, we couldn’t get in to the office, I couldn’t get into the office, I was the Vice President, I couldn’t get into the office. So I’m curious as to the details of that. They are contractors so it’s possible that they were working on something else and they were being forced into an office, I don’t know, it’s possible that something was happening that I’m not aware of. But that specific thing that they were talking about is, just caught me by surprise because we were actually, I was trying to violate the rules and I couldn’t even do it for myself, so.”

On the relationship between the creative and business sides of game development and corporate directives: “[direct orders from corporate], actually, it does happen. There are directive things. I mean, Joplin, the thing that was Dragon Age 4, was cancelled because it was perceived that the next Dragon Age needed to have an online component, it needed to have live service, it needed to have an online component, it needed to be live service, live service. That was, so it was like, there was essentially a decision made at a corporate level about what the game needed to be. And whether that was real or not, I don’t know, but I have my own thoughts on that front, but that’s what was said. And, but sometimes it’s even stupider stuff, like there were people that were like, ‘in DA:I, you NEED to be able to fly a dragon!’ and it was like, this was a dictate, and I judo’d that out of, into us not actually doing it. But that was a dictate that came down. So there are reviews, so with EA there are gates, so you have like numbered gates up to actually, I think there are more gates now. But basically you have a concept gate, a vision gate, a pre-production gate, a production gate, a post-production gate, and like alpha, and things like that. Some of those gates are formal gates, you have executives gather in a room and a presentation is made to them and then they say ‘I don’t like that, do something different’ and that could be anything from ‘I don’t like that your character has a frog for a head’, to ‘this entire-’, especially in the early days, ‘this entire concept is flawed, we shouldn’t make this game at all’. At EA, once things cross a certain threshold they tend to continue, but in the early days games do get cancelled because they don’t get through those gates. So they do have influence because there is, they are seeing the game during development and they are very important people who are expressing their opinions and it’s not entirely clear. I mean, I report to someone who reports to someone who is providing this feedback. So the presumption is they get to say what goes. And I guess they probably do. It’s not actually clear that they do, but the presumption is the reporting line is literally, person reports to person reports to this person who is saying this thing, I suspect they probably get to decide, if they say this needs to be a certain way, it’s gonna be a certain way. Maybe I’m wrong on that but that’s certainly what seems to be the case.”

On Anthem and why it got made: “I wasn’t on Anthem in the early days, but there was a, with some of the executive, EA’s never really understood what the heck BioWare is, but in the early days of Anthem, or let’s say, the days after ME3, there was a sentiment with some of the executives at EA that storytelling games were over. They were done. That we needed something different. So there was a lot of language that was being pushed at Casey, and at Aaryn, that was essentially to that effect, of, ‘don’t you think that the days of storytelling games are over? Maybe it’s time to do something different. And I don’t know, because I wasn’t in the room, I don’t know if that just fed into exactly the kind of game Casey wanted to make anyway, or if they just sort’ve lined up, so yeah. They weren’t, no one at EA was saying ‘Make Anthem’ or ‘Make Dylan’, which is what it was at the time, but there was pressure around, like, ‘probably if you’re making another thing and it’s not another Mass Effect, you shouldn’t just make another story-driven RPG. We don’t want another one of those, we don’t think’. So there was a push towards something different. Some of the early things that Casey was pitching were still, you know, they were multiplayer story-driven things, they were different, but yeah, there was definitely a push from corporate to do something that wasn’t ME, that wasn’t DA, it was something else.”

“It’s definitely frustrating, I did a ‘dear executive, you’re being managed’ video. As an Executive Producer, a big part of your job is managing executives so they feel like you’re listening to them even when what they’re saying is stupid, so it can be incredibly frustrating. I feel like BioWare’s left a lot of money on the table because of the purse strings that are held at the corporate level, like I feel like, porting SW:TOR to the consoles would make a ton of money for not very much investment, and it’s not been, it could’ve been done 3, 4, 5 years ago. The remasters, it’s a frankly, a miracle that they ever got made for ME. The thing that most studios within EA seem to do is they seem to do one thing at a time. Dice makes a Battlefield, then they fix it, then they make a new Battlefield. That makes corporate interaction, I think, a lot more clear [for them]. When Battlefield 4 comes out and it doesn’t do well, they’re given not just the ability, they’re given the mandate to fix it. BioWare’s always had a lot more plates spinning. But I think the consequence of that is, when something goes wrong, it means that there are a lot of potentials that could be spinning, and it means when something goes wrong, it’s less obvious what to do. When ME:A launches and has problems, unlike with Battlefield 4, EA doesn’t say, ‘fix it, I don’t care what you were gonna be doing next, fix it’, what instead happens is the resources get taken away and put onto other things. Anthem fought to have resources to fix itself, but ultimately was always fighting with Dragon Age, to be frank, for those resources, for some of them at least. I mean maybe that’s just an indication that BioWare has stubbornly held on to a structure that is incompatible with EA’s corporate culture, but I do think that having so many plates spinning means that BioWare’s always short of resources. And I think that’s given EA a lot more ability to influence what BioWare’s doing at any moment, because, like, ‘well why don’t you just put those people, we don’t want to keep trying to fix ME:A, why don’t you just put those people onto Dragon Age? Or we’ll take them away and put them onto EA Montreal.’ Whereas if you’re just one studio in Sweden or you’re Sims 4, same thing, is, they got nothing else do, I mean, they do, they absolutely have things to do, but it’s not obvious, there’s not an equal priority, there’s the next thing, which is a lower priority. Whereas at BioWare, there’s always something else they could be doing. And I think it’s been, it’s allowed EA, I think, more control over what BioWare does, maybe, than they’ve had in other studios possibly. I dunno. Probably someone from Dice is gonna angrily tell me I’m an idiot in your comments.”

Other BioWare things

“At least at EA, the executives, the corporate-level executives, the C-suite people, don’t really set culture at the individual studios. But they do control the purse-strings. And because they control the purse-strings they ultimately kind’ve do control everything. So I do think that public companies, or at least, all the public companies that I have worked for, are obsessed with short-term results. You know, ‘your game is supposed to come out in this quarter, and it should’ve come out in this quarter, and if it doesn’t come out in this quarter, it better come out in this fiscal year’. And moving across, so BioWare has a history of sliding games, but the reality is that EA, you can slide from quarter to quarter, but sliding outside of a fiscal year – it’s happened, but it’s really hard, and there are usually really terrible consequences involved in doing so. And I think what is happened to some degree is, corporate culture will eventually infect and take over the cultures of the studios, I believe. So if you look at BioWare in 2008, 2009 and 2010, it was BioWare’s culture with [inaudible] culture kind’ve on top, dictating things at a very macro level. But then if you fast forward ten more years, that EA culture, that sort’ve fiscal, that fiscal culture has sort’ve bled into BioWare’s culture to some degree. So I think actually, to some degree actually I think what EA really wants is they want studios like BioWare to be like, ‘it’s all about the art, man! We don’t care when it ships, we don’t care how many copies it’s gonna sell, we don’t care, we don’t care!’, and they provide the rigor to force that. But instead I think what’s happened, what naturally happens is, you realize ‘that this is a corporation, we need to care about profitability and release dates and all of these things’, but by doing that, that resistance has gone away. And while before, in like DA:O and ME1 [inaudible] the balance was over here, it starts to shift more towards a corporate-focused way, so I think that the thing that probably, the central, the C-suites need to do is, figure out how to give back the studios back that resistance, that willingness to say, ‘you know, the game’s not ready, it’s not gonna hit the fiscal year’. And they say they do, but they really don’t, because it’s, the culture’s just eroded away over time. It’ll be interesting to watch Respawn because it’s EA’s newest acquisition, and right now, just culturally, that resistance just there, just like BioWare in 2008, 2009, but let’s see what’s happened with Respawn in 5 or 6 years. I hope they can keep that up, but I don’t even think it’s, it’s not like ‘Evil EA’ infecting on purpose, I just think, naturally being within a bigger organization, it just happened through osmosis over time.”

“DA:O is about 7000 staff months to make, so it was a huge game at the time. Most of that was done before BioWare was owned by EA. Salaries went up dramatically, way higher than inflation after BioWare was acquired by EA, so that made a big difference. But DA:I was more staff months than DA:O by a fair amount and, so, a couple of things. The entire code base for DA:O was, I think, about two million lines of code. Frostbite is like 20 million lines of code. So that is, there is development cost of just holding that together, but things are just more complicated. As games get bigger, they get expensive.”

“When KOTOR put in voice-acting for all the conversations apart from the player. That changed the industry. At that moment it became no longer acceptable to not have voiced conversations in AAA games.” “DA:I has a horse because at the time it was seen that you had to have a horse in a fantasy RPG. I don’t think that’s true anymore, you’d get away with not having a horse today.”

“I would argue that a consistent problem of a lot of BioWare games is we try so hard to explain to you in the first three hours what’s going on, how everything works, all the mechanics, everything, we’re just dumping so much on the player that they’re overwhelmed and bored, probably bored. But also overwhelmed, if you throw too much at me you’ve actually reduced my ability to learn it, so you’ve actually made the game, in your effort to make me understand, you’ve actually made me understand less, potentially.”

“I think we made the wrong decision on DA:I. I think the crafting system in DA:I is completely inaccessible. It’s a very complicated system, there are no recipes, it’s all based on, like, combinations of different things giving you different materials and then there’s an appearance system layered on top of that which adds an additional layer of complexity. I think as a result, we have a system that is basically not engaged with by most players, by the vast majority of players, do not engage in crafting because it is inaccessible.” “Something that’s come up a couple of times in BioWare’s history is the idea of story-mode difficulty, so the ability to play through the game on essentially, you can’t lose combat. ME3 has such a difficulty, but we didn’t do that in DA:I. And the reason is not because I don’t think, given what BioWare games are, which is a lot about the interaction of different characters and engaging in the story and that, I don’t think that a story-mode difficulty is inappropriate for a BioWare game. But the problem is if you play ME3 on that difficulty, combat’s kind of awful, like it actually kind’ve makes the game, it damages the game in the process because combat is easy but fast, so it’s kind’ve just this weird morass you have to dig through. So I think when you’re thinking about accessibility, something like that, you have to think about, how does the more accessible version still allow the game to be good.” “A common example in a lot of BioWare games is puzzles. So you’d put a puzzle in, and then the game is broken and you’re going along and then the level comes together and it’s weeks or months later and then QA start playing it saying, ‘I can’t figure this puzzle out’. And you’re like, but it’s obvious in my head! Says the puzzle designer. And then you have to decide what you’re gonna do. You can pull the puzzle out completely, which has happened a lot in BioWare games, you just end up pulling it out. Or you put the answer on the wall, which you can see in tons of BioWare games, where it’s like, figure out this puzzle! Oh really? ‘Cause the answer is literally written on a giant poster right beside the puzzle, which I think just undermines the whole puzzle, what’s the point? Or you just say, forget it, we’re just gonna leave it. And the way that we’ve typically made the decision at BioWare for things like that is, if it’s on the critical path, the expectation is it should be accessible to every player, so you should be able to get through the main line of the story even if you can’t figure out any of the puzzles. So we might put a puzzle on the critical path to introduce the concept of puzzles to you, but the answer is on a poster board right beside it. If you’re off the critical path, if you’re on the optional content, then, all bets are off. If you can’t figure it out, then you can’t figure it out. But that comes from a belief that we want most people to finish the story, which I think might actually be a mis-placed belief. Maybe 2008, 2009, I had this feeling that, you know, Bethesda’s got a big problem. People don’t finish their games. You play their games and your last experience of a Bethesda game is always ‘ehh I guess I’m done’. But what I realized more recently is, actually, in a lot of ways, that’s maybe the best experience you can get from a player. Because if you think about how you experience a ME or a DA, your last experience is one of two things. Either it’s, what the fuck was that, I hate that ending, I am angry. Or, it was, that was the greatest ending I ever experienced! Now I’m disappointed that it’s over. And in both cases the actual last emotion is actually negative. It’s either a positive followed by disappointment, or it’s a negative right off the bat. I’m guilty of the obsession of, we want people to finish our games, but actually, maybe we don’t? Maybe we just want people to have their last experience not be negative and lots of positive experiences in the middle. I dunno.”

“Ray Muzyka was always certain that one of BioWare’s competitive advantages was replayability. But actually I would argue – there are people that have played DA:I thirty times, but most people, they don’t do that. Most people go through, you experience the story through a particular viewpoint, and then that’s the viewpoint. You might go and you know, make a Qunari just to see what it’s like, but what you see in the data is, if a person finishes the game, usually they finish the game once and then maybe they might have a few little ‘I played for 45 mins or an hour just to goof around’. But very rarely do you get people that are like, I played through the entire game like 10 times. It happens but it’s not common. I think replayability in these story-driven games is actually kind’ve an illusion.”

On EA not understanding what BioWare is: “I think there’s a lot of things, but I think fundamentally EA is a company that understands sports games. They understand how to make sports games which come out every year at a very high quality, monetize very well, they understand, they know how to market those, they know what production for those looks like, they know how to keep that team moving forward and proving their quality, they know how to do lots of things there. They know how to put processes in place to make the risk go down. I think when you apply those processes to shooters I think they actually work pretty well, though maybe they don’t work anymore. But I think they did work pretty well. You can kind’ve market a shooter like a sports game and it basically works. I think that one of the huge advantages that sports games have is, you already know if you like soccer or not, so I’ve already, so now I’m selling you the product, not the concept of the product. Shooters you can kinda do the same thing. You kinda know if you want a shooter or not, now I’m just selling you on this specific shooter, not the concept of shooters in general. RPGs aren’t like that, you can’t, because RPGs are so different from each other that you can’t sell me on the concept. Like, I don’t know if I just like RPGs, I need more than that to know if I can make a decision, which makes marketing them different. Also, for whatever, for a variety of reasons, RPGs are the most expensive genre you can make because they have, in theory, all the complexities of a shooter plus you have to tell an engaging, interactive story that branches on top of that, plus you need progression systems that are more complicated than your shooter on top of that. And that all needs to work together into some sort’ve combinatorial mass, to be frank. So I think that what EA wants from all their studios is they want things that can sell 10 million copies or 20 million copies, I mean that number changes. And the truth of the matter is, is, that maybe is just never BioWare. I mean, I say that, DA:I sold more than 10 million copies, but I mean, I think that what you have with BioWare is, maybe, you have the Oscar studio. Do the Oscar movies make three billion dollars? No, but they win you the awards. If you want that, do you want the studio that wins you the awards? But maybe, it makes money. I’m not saying that EA should just let BioWare lose money, that’s stupid, but do you want something that’s less profitable, but earns you acclaim? And if you do, then you need to measure in a different way. Do you want something that can build new IP? BioWare can build new IPs, and then maybe you take those IPs and you do other things with them. Not that EA has done that, and maybe EA doesn’t need to because they own like 40, 50 IPs that they’re currently not doing anything with, so. But, I mean, like building an IP is incredibly expensive, and incredibly difficult. Does EA want new IPs? Maybe, but again I don’t know that they, so what they have with BioWare is they have a company that gets into the conversation at award season, that can push culture, that can build new IPs. But, you know, be in the conversation at award season, push culture, and build new IPs, are those characteristics that EA wants or do they want ‘can sell 25 million copies and make a billion dollars’? And probably you can’t have those first three things and get that fourth thing. You can be profitable, but you’re probably not selling 25 million copies and making a billion dollars. I mean Skyrim did, but that’s. But I think honestly Skyrim just proves how hard it is. It’s the one in the RPG space that you talk about, and that’s from 2011. It’s the exception that proves the rule. That’s the RPG that was culturally relevant, relevant at awards season, but also made a ton of money.”

At the end of the interview, they had tech difficulties, so they transcribed the last segments of the audio to post for folks to read. This can be found pinned in the comments of the YouTube video.

[source and watch link]

[stone-stars]

songs in c3e67: cyra (timestamps from the ad-free version. does not include the generic combat music. “a wizard’s tournament” is the recap song.)

Shadowfell - 14:05

In the Dark of Dusk - 19:53

Spearmint & Tea Leaves - 21:18

The Prodigal Sister - 25:39

The Fairy - 30:46

Frankie Vantasmo - 35:48

Doppelgangers - 39:02

Deadeye - 42:54, 45:14, and 47:01

A Friend for Life - 51:53

The Multiverse - 54:35, 55:10, 56:38, 1:00:21, and 1:00:59

Ode to the Archipelago - 1:04:07 and 1:08:23

A Memory - 1:09:29

When You Wish Upon a Stone - 1:13:25 (loops)

The Red Fen - 1:17:49

Deadeye - 1:19:41

Melora's Boon - 1:21:38, 1:23:05, and 1:24:52

The Purge - 1:26:05 (loops)

The Posse - 1:34:54

Unknown Tome - 1:39:45

Mee Maw's Burden - 1:50:08 and 1:52:40

A Fate Refused - 1:56:53

context for each song + notes under the cut!

Shadowfell - 14:05 - Going to find Cyra / Spotting her

In the Dark of Dusk - 19:53 - Cyra tells Callie her plan

Spearmint & Tea Leaves - 21:18 - Callie tells Cyra she loved her and was jealous of her / Cyra admits she was jealous of Callie and knew about their mom's ability

The Prodigal Sister - 25:39 - "Was it easier when I cried?" / Callie talks about their mom's execution / Cyra talks about calming young Callie / They hug

The Fairy - 30:46 - Callie calls Calder + Sol over to meet Cyra

Frankie Vantasmo - 35:48 - Cyra says Jovyre's courts have been after her

Doppelgangers - 39:02 - Cyra says Jovyre needs to die to take the crown

Deadeye - 42:54, 45:14, and 47:01 - Cyra explains her plan / Discussing it

A Friend for Life - 51:53 - Callie asks Cyra to fix her hair

The Multiverse - 54:35 and 55:10 - The ritual to talk to Swag

The Multiverse - 56:38 - Swag shows them the Great Hall's layout

The Multiverse - 1:00:21 and 1:00:59 - Exiting the swamp / Swag gives Sol dating advice

Ode to the Archipelago - 1:04:07 - Making dinner (searching for vampire eggs)

Ode to the Archipelago - 1:08:23 - Cyra makes food

A Memory - 1:09:29 - Cyra tells them how she made her crown

When You Wish Upon a Stone - 1:13:25 (loops) - Marigold comes down to meet them

The Red Fen - 1:17:49 - Flying around the Shadowfell / Vampires

Deadeye - 1:19:41 - Discussing the plan

Melora's Boon - 1:21:38 - Cyra says she's glad they're here

Melora's Boon - 1:23:05 - Cyra joins Duck Team (track jacket)

Melora's Boon - 1:24:52 - Preparing to Plane Shift

The Purge - 1:26:05 (loops) - Cyra and Marigold disappear / Forcecage + Fatebringer mages

The Posse - 1:34:54 - Sol frightens the Fatebringer mages

Unknown Tome - 1:39:45 - 6 fireballs

Mee Maw's Burden - 1:50:08 - Callie and Calder drop / Kenna and Sol prepare to heal them

Mee Maw's Burden - 1:52:40 - Calder nat 1 death save

A Fate Refused - 1:56:53 - Duck Team start to flee / jump into the water

Different Credits: "In the Dark of Dusk" is credited as "In the Dark of Dust" / "The Fairy" is credited as "Cable Car Ride" / "When You Wish Upon a Stone" is credited as "Alanis" / "Melora's Boon" is credited as "Fabric of Fate"

[nevermindirah]

Who talks to who, for how long and about what, in The Old Guard (2020) dir. Gina Prince Bythewood?

I got curious and so I watched the movie taking a lot of timestamp notes. way back three and a half years ago now, I watched this movie for the first time bc I like gritty action movies, and it's a really good one of those. I'm still obsessed with it all this time later because it's full to the brim with well-drawn characters who have compelling relationships with each other, and boy howdy does the data show it.

I was especially curious about who spends how much time alone together on screen, so I coded all the scenes with that in mind, and I found some really interesting patterns in the breakdown of scenes where just two characters talk, where one character is the sole focus, and when three characters talk.

the winners of course are Nile and Andy, our dual protagonists, who spend 10% of the movie's total runtime alone together. they also spend a lot of time with our dual friendly antagonists, Booker and Copley. scenes featuring combinations of just these four characters make up 40% of the total runtime.

Joe and Nicky show up less in this analysis because they're side characters who mostly appear in group scenes, but wow are they richly drawn side characters. they're key players in all but two scenes where four or more named characters talk.

read on for many numbers and much analysis of what it all means!

Andy Nile 0:12:20 Nile Booker 0:06:00 Andy Booker Copley 0:05:22 Andy Booker 0:05:01 Andy Nile Booker 0:04:56 Nile Copley 0:04:18 Nile alone 0:04:07 Andy alone 0:03:31

Andy Celeste 0:02:49 Merrick Copley 0:02:41 Joe Nicky 0:02:24 Nile Dizzy Jay 0:01:33 Andy Quynh 0:01:31 Andy Nile Merrick 0:00:52 Booker alone 0:00:32 Copley alone 0:00:28 Nicky Kozak 0:00:27 Booker Quynh 0:00:21 Copley Keane 0:00:09

(the spreadsheet, if anyone's interested in digging deeper with me)

of the 12 min that our main characters are alone together on screen, almost fully half is super duper antagonistic:

4:26 is the kidnapping sequence

1:29 is their conversation outside after Nile's nightmare featuring the iconic "me and those three men in there will keep you safe" "like Quynh?"

and 7 seconds is Nile glaring daggers at Andy after walking over all those bodies in the church

the other half breaks down like this:

2:14 is them connecting over their mortal families — where Andy makes Nile give her phone back at the end

1:45 is Nile telling Andy she's not doing this, that she's going back to her family — Andy pushes with "we'd do the same for you" but then relents and gives Nile the car

50 seconds of them gearing up for the last segment of the fight — Nile tries to get Andy to wear a bulletproof vest, she jokes around with "is this gonna be like the last signal?" — it's operations-focused but there's a real warmth between them by this point in the movie (this scene starts at 1:41:45, just 13 min before the credits roll)

and 1:29 of Andy looking at Nile like she hung the moon (which, extremely valid and relatable!) and Nile saying that the time Andy's got left "you're gonna spend it with us"

Nile has an uninterrupted 4:18 sequence with Copley that speed runs the same general shape of her arc with Andy, hella antagonistic to teamwork, though the latter here is more of a professional camaraderie than the real warmth we see Nile develop for Andy.

in this context Nile's arc with Booker is remarkably different. their first scene alone together is 1:11 in total, intercut with Andy killing mercs elsewhere in the church, and it's sort of their only scene with friction between them. Booker keeps telling Nile to wait for the signal without explaining what that means, annoyingly continuing Andy's grand tradition of not fucking answering Nile's reasonable questions, ugh. though another way of framing this is of course that he's too busy packing her a change of clothes while showing off his tits for her. as I noted in a previous meta, the end of this sequence is the one time Booker lies to Nile (claiming he doesn't know who the mercs are when he has at least a basic idea, though we don't know for sure whether Copley involved him in this specific plan).

after this Nile and Booker have two more scenes alone together and they're both extended conversations: 3:14 for their conversation alone in the cave after Andy leaves, and 1:18 when Nile joins Booker on the balcony outside the bar. both of these conversations are remarkably intimate for how little these characters have interacted beforehand. remember, 6:02 total of Nile and Andy alone together with heavy animosity (Andy shot Nile in the head ffs!) before things between them started to warm up. granted, the conversation where they first start to warm to each other is right after Nile's cave scene with Booker and Andy's scene with Celeste, so an argument could be made that this was the point in the movie where Nile started to feel ready to open up to the other immortals generally and her first one-on-one conversation once she got there was with Booker before Andy. I'm not saying you have to ship them just because they get so close so quick, but the numbers sure do make it clear that us BoNers aren't making this shit up out of nowhere.

Nile and Booker's heart-to-heart in the mine is the third-longest one-on-one conversation in the whole movie — third after Andy kidnapping Nile and Nile's sequence with Copley, which are both heavy on action and exposition and antagonism, making this the longest intimate conversation in the movie. their other heart-to-heart, 1:18 on the balcony outside the pub, is on par with Joe and Nicky's 1:17 in the van.

there's also a 51 sec sequence during the Merrick tower fight where it intercuts pretty much equally between three subsets of the action: Andy going off on her own with an axe, Joe waiting for Nicky to wake up after that head shot, and Nile and Booker being drift compatible when Nile's gun jams. we're not making this shit up out of nowhere.

ok back to our blorbos in chief. we get 4:07 of Nile as the sole focus, and 3:31 of the same for Andy.

the sequence of Nile going through hell on base just because she fucking lived (laser eyes @ her squad forever) lasts 1:14 and includes a few lines from minor characters. we get 15 sec of her first dreaming of the others and waking up unmoored, then a 20 sec reprise with her nightmare of the first person she killed. the sequence of her driving away from Copley's then figuring out what the empty gun clip means is 48 sec. and then, one of the things that stood out to me the most in really digging into these numbers: just how frequently and for how long the camera lingers on Nile's face in this movie.

extended closeups of Nile with no dialogue and no montage:

10 seconds staring at the car she crushed, killing Merrick in the process but somehow not herself

36 seconds in the elevator

and a whopping 44 seconds of listening to Frank Ocean

that's fully 1 minute and thirty seconds of this movie's 2 hr 5 min credits-included runtime devoted exclusively to long takes of Nile Freeman's face.

Andy's sole-focus time is a little less tidy, because the majority of it isn't precisely focused on her like with Nile. we get 15 sec of her staring at her hand, realizing her immortality is gone. I could have coded all the pieces of the movie more granularly to find all the moments where we get Andy reaction shots, but I also could've done that with all of them and I'm but one humble spreadsheet lover, and it's more interesting to me that Gina primarily uses other kinds of film language to put us into Andy's perspective.

1:35 of her cutting through all those mercs in the church — other people are active in this scene, but they're not shown as people, and the horror of that is exactly the point, for the viewer, for Nile, and for Andy herself

41 sec of her voiceover at the opening of the movie, over clips of the kill floor scene

1 min of her moodily sitting in the car after the pharmacy and flashing back to Lykon's death

the Andy/Quynh flashback sequence that's a subset of Nicky and Joe narrating to Nile is 1:31, so counting that alongside this flashback here brings us to a total of 2:31 of Andy/Quynh(/Lykon) alone together screen time. almost precisely equal to Joe and Nicky's total 2:24 alone together.

further underlining Booker and Copley as our tritagonists, we get one scene of on-screen alone time for each of them: 32 seconds of Booker being drunk six months later and 28 seconds of Copley reacting to the kill floor footage. it's easy to focus on the Andy in a Union uniform element of this Copley scene, but a photo of his late wife is visible in almost every frame. I went back and double checked — only 3 sec of those 28 don't contain that photo of his wife displayed proudly between the kill floor footage and the Civil War photo, 3 sec of Copley in closeup. now that's what I call environmental storytelling.

we get almost exactly 5 min each with the sets Andy + Booker + Copley, Andy + Booker, and Andy + Nile + Booker. ABC and ANB conversations tend toward driving the plot and fleshing out detail about immortality, though a decent chunk of ANB in the "is this a Rodin?" part of the cave scene is Nile and Booker talking about following the money (their first moment of drift compatibility!) while Andy angsts nearby, and a decent chunk of ABC at Copley's place is Andy and Booker's heartbreaking "this is what you wanted" "not like this" exchange while Copley awkwardly hovers. just under half of Andy and Booker's 5:01 on screen alone together is about his betrayal, 2:13 across three scenes. the other half breaks out pretty evenly between them talking about Nile, making battle plans, and just being pals.

has any mid-budget gritty action movie ever done it better? even the infodumps are full of character and relationship details.

I also find it noteworthy that Booker and Copley are never alone together, and they never directly acknowledge anything about their relationship. we know from what they tell other characters that they've been in contact before the events of the movie, probably for some time in some detail. we know they worked together to ultimately enable the cartoon-villain antagonists to do their villainy. Copley is direct about how these results were absolutely not what he intended, and we can infer from Booker's behavior that he wasn't aiming for decades of medical torture either. but we get no information about how they feel about each other. now that I'm looking at it with this frame, it seems like the absence of information is itself a kind of telling — Booker and Copley maybe purposefully avoiding 1:1 contact, purposefully treating each other as mere acquaintances when others are around, because to do otherwise would be to look their guilt in the eye. oh shit I think I might have given myself a whole new meta idea on this tangent here: Copley and Booker as mirrors for each other.

disclaimer as we're nearing the end that there's inevitably going to be bias and error in something like this. I measured by seconds not milliseconds and I wasn't always precise about where I paused to note timestamps at scene changes. sometimes I included what ended up amounting to several seconds of establishing shots and sometimes I didn't. and there are a bunch of edge cases where there's more than one way to count who was an active part of which scenes, like for example:

I separated out Andy and Booker's opening motorcycle stalking and Don Quijote chat from the later part of what was probably just one scene in the script, where Booker talks to the hotel clerk while Andy interacts with tourists nearby

I included all as one Nile + Dizzy + Jay scene the sequence where Dizzy and Jay talk to each other about Nile before they go into the med tent and act shitty to her face about how Nile's still alive

I counted as Copley + Merrick the conversation in the car where Keane and Kozak are present and react on camera but don't have lines per se

similarly I counted as Andy + Booker the "she wants to talk to her family" exchange after Nile and Nicky leave the dinner table; Joe's still sitting there next to them but he doesn't say anything and the camera doesn't focus on him

I didn't try to delete the time where Andrei said/did stuff from the 4:26 Andy kidnaps Nile sequence but I did remove a Keane cut-away from a later Andy + Nile scene

so much has already been lovingly written about how well Joe and Nicky spend their short on-screen alone time and rightly so. I don't have anything new to add there so I'll take a moment instead to shout out to the 27 sec of Nicky telling Kozak to go fuck herself, and also the iconic Joe headbutting Merrick. fuck, this movie is so so good. every moment is a delight.

[mareastrorum]

Nein Again music for Episode 21: Stalker in the Swamp under the cut! Matt pulled songs from a lot of games this time.

During the recap, Matt played Kaer Morhen from Witcher III.

The Hunter's Path began at about 12:40, when Kiri, Beau, and Jester wake up.

Forest Day 1 from World of Warcraft plays at about 29:27, when the Nein ask if Calianna has wings. That song is timestamped below, and there are other timestamps in the description to navigate similar songs.

The music transitions into Forest Day 2 (available at the above link at 4:06) about 1 minute later, then repeats once, then shifts to Forest Day 3 (which is the first song at the above link).

At about 34:55, we switch back to Witcher III with Bonnie at Morn (Instrumental), as Febron describes the fog and weather.

At 59:12, we can see Matt switching the music. I believe he put on a Howling Fjord playlist from World of Warcraft because there's a general Northrend introduction before Howling Fjord General Walk Day 1 begins (timestamped below).

Side note: I have been trying to match this song for SO long. The bagpipes reminded me so much of Witcher III that I was convinced that it was a Skellige song, but whenever I thought maybe it was WoW, I kept checking Grizzly Hills and Borean Tundra, completely forgetting that Howling Fjord was a region. It's ridiculous because it's regarded as the best regional music from Wrath of the Lich King, and I don't even disagree with that. Also, nevermind that the woodwinds are more emphasized in Howling Fjord, that just never clicked in my brain while doing a reverse search for some reason.

ANYWAY.

From there, there's a long break of music from Skyrim or other games. Perhaps Pillars of Eternity? I still need to get familiar with those OSTs.

The Howling Fjord music replays at about 2:51:00, after a long break of other music.

At about 3:03:15, Matt plays Battle 2 from Molton Core, which is timestamped below. This was a common theme among all the dungeons/raids in Blackrock Mountain. The captions will show the name of the song playing, and the time stamps reference the section of the map where they will play.

At about 3:05:38, The Path of a Kingslayer from Witcher 2 kicks up. It's got that woodwind opener that's just so recognizable once you've heard it a few times.

At 3:14:25, when Caleb uses Enlarge on Beau, Silver for Monsters... (the LELELELE song) begins. Liam noted, "the Amazons are singing right now."

Commanding the Fury was playing sometime around 3:22:00, but there was so much dialogue that I could not pinpoint the timestamp at all.

Similar issue with City of Intrigues, which was playing around 3:28:00.

That's all for this week!

[seeminglyranch87]

Taylor & Travis Timeline

October 2023 - part 2

October 16 - Travis and Jason attend Game 1 of NCLS in Philadelphia

People Magazine release an article (x)

"Taylor's unlike anyone Travis has dated before," 

"It was very unexpected for his friends, but he's so into her and very, very happy."

The insider continues, "Some people thought he was just joking around about the bracelet and having a crush on her earlier this summer, but he was serious about it," referring to Travis' attempt to give Taylor a friendship bracelet with his number on it at her Eras Tour in KC

They are "having a great time getting to know one another"

"They make a very cute couple."

Another People article is released the same day (x)

"They've been texting and talking on the phone between the pockets of time they get to spend with each other,"

"[Travis] knows what he signed up for with this attention, but they've spent time under the radar too. They're giving things a real try,"

Rumours circulate that Travis and Taylor have looked at a house up for sale together (x) as reported by Jenna Bush Hagar on the NBC talk show; Today with Hoda & Jenna.

“A friend from Kansas City texted me there might be news they’re buying a house,”

October 18 - New Heights Podcast episode 59 (x)

Travis & Jason talk about security (timestamp 5:30)

Jason Kelce asks his brother Travis "Have you had to enact any security of your own? Do you feel like you're a security guard when you are with Taylor?"

Travis responded, "I feel like whenever I'm on a date, I'm always having the sense that I'm a man in the situation. I'm protective, yeah, for sure. You always have to have that feeling or self-awareness, I guess."

Travis is trolled by intern Brandon (see photo below)

Travis and Jason have a laugh about Taylor meeting their dad Ed and wondering what he would talk to her about? (45:10)

Travis reveals that he and Taylor’s cameos on SNL were not planned. They had attended the recording of Season 49’s premiere episode in support of good friend and feature musical guest Ice Spice. (1:14:05)

Taylor releases "The Cruelest Summer" playlist which includes Cruel Summer live from the the Era's Tour and Cruel Summer - The LP Giobbi Remix in a bid for Number 1. (x)

ET publishes an article (x)

"They have a lot of fun together and [Taylor] loves how chivalrous [Travis] is," the source says. "Taylor feels at ease with Travis and they are already very comfortable around each other."

ET's source notes that "it's been easy" for Taylor and Travis "to connect because they have similar values and goals when it comes to their personal lives and careers."

Rumours continue to circulate that Travis has bought a $6 million home in Kansas City that provides more privacy and security and that he took Taylor to view the property. (x)(x)

October 19 - ET is informed that the duo is fully committed to their relationship and the future (x)

"Travis and Taylor are all in. The two are very into each other and are enjoying their time together but are also planning for the future. Taylor starts her international tour in November, and Travis is planning to be there to spend time with her," the source says. "Travis and Taylor are very serious about their careers, and the two bond over that and want to show support for each other whenever they can."

During week 10 of the NFL season, Travis and the Kansas City Chiefs enjoy a bye week, providing him with a brief respite. Coincidentally, during this very week, Taylor is set to take the stage for three consecutive nights in Buenos Aires, Argentina, from Nov. 9 to 11, marking her debut international Era Tour performances. This fortunate scheduling overlap grants Travis the opportunity to be in attendance.

Taylor papped in LA dining at a sushi restaurant with Zoë Kravitz, Selena Gomez & Keleigh Teller

October 20 - Travis Kelce answers questions at the Chiefs press conference (x 3:50)

When asked about his appearance on SNL Travis replied (8:00)

"it was funny, obviously I didn't know what was going to go down and just decided to hit SNL last second and they asked if I wanted to end the skit that was about me and Taylor's take over of the NFL games which was hilarious, I loved every bit of it and I was laughing my tail off during the skit, to be honest I don't even remember saying anything..."

Travis was also asked what he recommended people wear to dress up like him as a halloween costume, he suggests a moustache, 87 chiefs jersey and a friendship bracelet. (8:44)

Travis reveals

"I had [a moustache] when I first met Taylor"

US Weekly article (x) a source says about Travis and Taylor

“They’re really happy. They’re not saying they’re in love yet. But it’s obvious to her friends they’re heading in that direction,” noting that their loved ones see Swift, 33, and Kelce’s strong connection when they are together. “Friends think they’re in love.”

“He’s going to see her when she’s back on tour. That’s already planned. And when she gets a break, she’ll see him,” the source adds. “It’s going so well because it’s easy and nothing is complicated.”

“Taylor is really happy and excited about Travis. She’s at the relationship stage where she looks forward to seeing him, getting calls from him, spending time with him,” the source continues. “She has butterflies in her stomach and she hasn’t had that in a while. She feels safe and comfortable around him physically and emotionally.”

The insider notes that Kelce has surprised Swift with how “in tune” he is with her needs. The athlete has also been “a gentleman” toward Swift since he revealed in July his attempt to make a move on Swift while attending her Eras tour concert. “Travis is someone who is so different for her. With him it’s easy. She doesn’t have to worry about anything,”

He has his own career and money. So he’s not with her for the wrong reasons. He has his own successful career and understands the demands,” the insider concludes. “There’s no drama and they’re happy. He’ll visit, she’ll visit. It’s working for them.”

October 22 - Chiefs v Chargers, Arrowhead Stadium, Kansas City. Taylor flies into KC to cheer on Travis and the Chiefs as they take on the Chargers at Arrowhead Stadium.

Taylor is photographed with Bernie Kosar at Travis home pregame (x).

Taylor appears to have had a brilliant time supporting Travis at the Sunday afternoon game joining Brittany Mahomes and others. The Chiefs defeated the LA Chargers 31- 17 with Travis scoring a touch down to cement the win. Taylor wore a "87" friendship bracelet in support of Travis.

Chiefs coach Andy Reid addresses the press commenting on the Chiefs win (x 2:16)

"Kelce keeps getting better with time, Taylor can stay around all she wants"

Taylor and Travis leave Arrowhead Stadium together in Travis' Rolls Royce (x)

tay and trav in the getaway cart

Taylor and Travis celebrate the win at Travis KC home photographed with Chiefs teammate Mecole Hardman Jr. and Chariah Gordon (x)

Taylor changed shoes to be part of a group of teammates, WAGs and close friends of the KC Chiefs wearing custom red nikes. It's so nice to see Taylor be included in this way! (via @taylorswiftstyle and Aric Jones on instagram)

The Messenger reports (x)

" [Travis and Taylor] are both smitten and can't keep their hands off one another when they are together," the source said. "They aren't scared to be affectionate in public."

October 23 - Cruel Summer hits No. 1 on the Billboard Hot 100! Cruel Summer hits this milestone 5 years after it was released from the 2019 Lover album. Taylor and Jack Antonoff (who helped produce the song and long time friend) celebrate with a post (x). Notice they are in a recording studio in LA (last week) and are being way too cryptic holding up 11 fingers... TS 11 anyone?

People speak with Ed Kelce, Travis' dad (x)

Ed tells PEOPLE that the “Karma” singer is “a very, very sweet, very charming, down-to-earth young woman."

His initial impression that Swift is “very genuine" was proven right upon his first meeting with the singer.

“I’ll tell you something very special that I noticed about Taylor the first time I met her,” Ed shares. “We're sitting in the suite, she gets up and in the front room, she gets up to go get a drink or something and she starts picking up empty bottles, cans, plates that are scattered around. Because in the suites everybody gets stuff and you empty it down wherever you can.” Ed continues, “And I'm just thinking, I don't think she got the diva memo. She didn't get the spoiled musician. She doesn't know how to pull that off. And that really to me said a whole lot.”

Travis and Taylor are papped hand in hand heading out for dinner Monday evening at Piropos, an Argentine Steak House. Travis is seen opening the car door for Taylor. (x)

Victor Oladipo believes Taylor Swift makes Travis Kelce better (x)

October 25 - Ed Kelce speaks with ET (x)

"I think they are two very, very driven professional individuals," he says. "I think they're very supportive of each other, which is key. This is a rough time for either one of them to have a relationship. She's in the middle of this ginormous tour, he's knee deep [in the NFL season]. At least he takes his just as serious as she takes hers as far as commitment to their craft."

Ed believes that Taylor's pre-concert ritual of preserving her voice -- which Travis claims is the reason he was unable to present her with a friendship bracelet -- shows how dedicated and understanding she is when it comes to her career. 

"I think she's very committed to that," he says of the "Anti-Hero" songstress. "And I think Travis supports that. And I think she realises how committed Travis is to sleep, 10 hours a day, when your body is going through this kind of thing. So I think they're both very supportive."

And should the Chiefs make it to the Super Bowl...

"Without a doubt," he says about saving a seat for Tay. "She'll be in the middle of the Eras Tour so..."

And if Ed himself should ever make it to the Eras Tour, he'll be singing "You Belong With Me," as he revealed that it's his favorite song of hers.

"Being genuine with your feelings," he tells ET of the dating advice he gave Travis and Jason. "Being respectful of a woman, and that's taught from a young age. Be yourself, be honest with someone's emotions. But these are all things that they've understood growing up just being the norm."

Episode 60 of New Heights airs, part of the episode title is "Travis Reacts to “Swift Stats"" (x 56:20)

In response to whether National Tight End day is a real holiday, Jason tweets

October 26 - Taylor is seen out in NYC. She is at Bradley Cooper's apartment with Shawn Levy, Blake Lively, Ryan Reynolds and Hugh Jackman. That night, Taylor goes out for dinner with Alana and Danielle Haim at Holiday Bar, NYC (x)

Patrick Mahomes says that he wants to have a secret handshake with Travis after his wife Brittany and Taylor went viral for theirs (x)

“I need to talk to Travis, because me and Travis don’t even have a handshake yet,” Patrick, 28 said during a radio interview with Kansas City’s KCSP (610 AM) on Thursday, October 26. “So I mean, they’re ahead of the game on us. So we’re gonna have to get on the whiteboard, and we’re gonna figure out a handshake so that we can try to one up theirs.”

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