#which is relevant to me but also to henry in how i interpret him

[smile-files]

psychologists have discovered this new method of diagnosing mental illnesses and disorders. it's called the henry ledore insanity scale

[miffedartist]

Liar (Live) by Rollins and Parallels between Willry: a "mini" essay (PT 1)

I stumbled upon a Spotify playlist as I was walking downtown and this song randomly popped up as I was on shuffle. I had no idea as I was listening to this song that it had any sort of hardcore roots (as I had originally assumed it was made by a semi Weird Al copycat-possible comedian and parodist due to the vocalist Henry Rollins)

However, immediately shocked to my knowledge that Black Flag actually had a lot to do with this song, and as I don't really give a shit about them now, I thought it was kinda neat to see. Prior, I hadn't even recognized his voice simply because of the fact I don't necessarily listen to old school HxC like that. But as I started listening to this song, the very NIN sequence guitar riff captivated me, but not only by how beautiful the song was or how good his voice was even. after years of touring. It was the LYRICS.

So simple, so short, and yet so much to it I almost couldn't believe I hadn't stumbled upon this song any sooner as it was on a fairly recent album. (2013 rerelease)

But as I kept listening to the track, my first initial reaction was to immediately think of the thing I keep hyper-fixating on as of current, Willry.

As an old fan of Five Nights At Freddy's, (like most) I have seen a lot of fan interpretations of William Afton go by like a flash. Whether it be Springtrap and Delilah, Vincent, Dave Miller in both DSAF and Pinkypills interpretation, Fazzruh's version, Meeting Afton, Blueycapsules, etc. But something about this song specifically caught my eye in animation potential when it comes to this pairing specifically, their dynamic in respective forms of media, and the lyrics behind this song as well as meaning behind it in both my interpretation and the real idea.

William and Henry as characters to me have always been undefined. A collective fan exposition that Scott has let everyone run wild with and see where the process and ideas that come up take him as he continues to write the narrative even years later. As of this case, everything I state here is simply my own predicament and summary of what, how and why these characters behave and their ideology and morals, and doesn't necessarily represent canon. I am also going to be writing about canon material and such, explaining the story, etc. (I also have to write this in parts, because Tumblr hates me. 4096 character count? Really? On a BLOG site?) Take what you will, and leave behind what you don't align or agree with. And please, feedback, feedback, feedback! I love to hear collective ideas from anyone with interest in this.

So.

Let's start with the beginning of the song:

I can either go two routes with this: the canon relevance of this, or my own thoughts. So I'll do both.

In the Fourth Closet, this book is addressed in my personal opinion, poorly. Whether it is relevant to the canon timeline or completely useless and made for retail purposes, (as literal "sexy" robot replicas of dead children with major daddy issues are involved) is never PROPERLY clarified by Scott himself. But however, this book does a good job at framing on how these two interact, without giving too many of the details.

In this book, Henry is revealed through the series to have, in short, built four different versions of ages of his dead daughter Charlotte, as all individual robots, abandoned the fourth, (who ends up being transformed as Circus Baby slash Elizabeth Afton) and killed himself.

Can you tell I hate this book trilogy?

In the games, after Charlotte is murdered outside of Freddy's due to William Afton, Henry sinks himself deeper into his traumatic termoil as time goes on and more and more murders are committed. He does nothing, and stays complicit with knowledge William killed his daughter and the other children. (as he states in Pizza Sim, which we will get to soon) He eventually shuts William in the room with the ghost children he killed. (as this then leads to him being spring-locked, and his new identity as Springtrap. Which this is already insane of itself and has metaphors everywhere but not the focus as of now. All of this is shown within the mini games, FNAF Pizzeria Sim, Candy Cadet, etc.)

In conclusion to this part, Henry is very obviously being portrayed throughout the media as selfish, and complicit in everything his partner does, as he does not act or tell authorities. In fact, with most decisions William makes for the corporation or his own personal life, it has been shown he is constantly one step behind him. He is a morally grey character, dare I even say weak. (see: Secret of the Mimic)

Henry states in his suicide note directed towards his sister in the Fourth Closet the following; "Through your patience and indulgence of me, you've tried to keep me happy, but it's also somehow brought me back from this world I've made for myself. I think maybe it would have been better for you to have not indulged me; then I could have excluded you from my bubble, convinced myself that you were crazy like everyone else. But instead, your unceasing love caused me to listen to you, to let you in, and the consequence of that was seeing the truth in your eyes, and letting that in as well."

To be blunt and force my own opinion into this:

Is this REALLY about his sister? (who had little to zero plot relevance in the whole trilogy, had only confronted Henry about his delusions once or twice, as retold through the flashbacks with Elizabeth and Charlie towards the end of the book.) Also, she isn't a canon character in the games, like at all.

Highly doubtful. In the song, it states "you tried to mix with those animals". This could be interpreted from either William or Henry's side, as with William he could be saying this as a witty throwback in an argument, but in my personal opinion, this feels more like something Henry would say. Living life in dark and seclusion could be William sitting for 30 years in that one room to himself, locked away, or Henry as he isolates himself for 30 years before returning in 2023 (confirmed by Scott as both in the same year) for FNAF 3 and Pizzeria Simulator. Representative as both in my opinion, or even switching perspectives throughout the song, works.

"Staggering back home" and "Waiting for nothing" in my own opinion, is more shown as a Henry trait, his complicity of his actions being addressed perhaps through the song. I also believe the relevance of the line of "mixing with those animals" has a lot to do with how William in the trilogy and possibly in the games aswell sees himself as one of the animatronics, one of the souls trapped in the suit. (shown in the Silver Eyes graphic novel)

(Oh Charlie, you underdeveloped and sexualized plot device. What you could've been.)

In this book, he refuses to address any of the kids until Charlie puts the mask on. It is literally case in point, his fursona. He can no longer live without it anymore.

This isn't as relevant when it comes to the games, as most of the time when we see how William kills onscreen, it is shown through digitized mini-games with cute old school graphics and different characters every time, meant to be representative of William, through different characters. This is shown up a LOT in the FNAF series. (see: Into the Pit, Edwin Murray, etc)

Scott seems to really like his analogies.

Now that I explained the canon stuff, here's my take, fully.

This part of the song represents how Henry resents William for his actions, but not only that, represents how he sees himself for being guilty of letting him get away with everything. How selfish he was and still is, and how he was blinded by grief and humiliation to do anything. And if addressed TO Henry from William, it is mocking him for doing the exact thing he is guilty about. Shaming him for it. Ridiculing his mistakes and his grief. Treating as a joke, a sham.

Also, something about the line "Yeah, I know." just SCREAMS dual perspective to me. I like to agree with that the most when analyzing this. But moving onto the next part of the song:

[phantomoftheorpheum]

y'all, I wrote this ridiculously long analysis of the first 2 eps of PLL: OS (Summer School), but it was too long so this is what you get instead.

*Spoilers for 1x01, 1x02, and the "Weeks Ahead" trailer

I see a lot of people suspicious that Christian may be related to (or good friends) with Chip, and I do understand where those theories are coming from. I personally think it's more likely that Christian will be an early suspect of the season. I think the girls will discover that Christian made the "Bloody Rose" mask/costume, and believe he is involved, but that we will find out that it was a commissioned work and he doesn't know the identity of the person who bought it (they might even use this to have him describe a character who came to pick up the mask/outfit, but intentionally make us think of someone else- like describing an older white lady and the show points us at Chip's mom, or Kelly's mom, or Dr. Sullivan, etc. depending on who they don't want us to suspect). Obviously this is conjecture and I could be totally off base, but that's my read on Christian. This is also not to suggest that I think he's 100% above board (I have some other theories about him), but this is where I am with him at this moment.

Female rage has always been a major theme of this reboot, and it feels particularly relevant, considering "Rose" is our scary person in a mask, so personally I really do hope the main person responsible (even if there are multiple people involved) this season is a woman. I think it just fits the theme of the show really well. That being said, I could be talked around to alternatives.

I can't stop considering how the Our Mother of Holy Grace church comes into play here. So, here's where that takes my brain. This church is led by Pastor Malachi. Interesting choice of names- Malachi is the last book of the Old Testament. It focuses on criticizing those who are not committed/faithful enough, and also criticizes those who question God's justice. We know that Rose Waters (the real Rose Waters) was incredibly religious, and that she wielded religion as a tool in her abuse of Angela and Archie. "Bloody Rose" wears a crown of thorns, an incredibly famous bit of religious imagery. The actual Rose Waters walked the path of "religious woman who failed her children (was abusive towards them & did not protect Angela from her "friends") and lost one to violence, then became violent with those she blamed for this." We have another character who could easily walk that same path- Mrs. Beasley is a religious woman who failed her children (Karen, dead. Kelly isolated & traumatized, neither protected from this sequence of events) and lost one to violence, then became violent with those she blamed for this (stabbed her husband). But there could be a lot more people than Tom Beasley on her "blame" list. Particularly if her feelings/grief around Karen have become tangled up in her religious devotion. That is to say that, so far, everyone who has died in this season (though the first few kills were Archie's) could easily be considered a "sinner" ("the guilty" from season 1, the teens in the cabin, Sandy "tempting" Greg), and "Bloody Rose" may see herself as meting out God's justice. But then... why the girls? Well, it sounds like they are getting "tests" this year, which, similar to last season, makes me think they are not kill targets (yet), that "Rose" is still deciding about them. Anyway, again, all conjecture/interpretation and I could be completely off base.

I think people are gonna hate to hear it, but- I think we might be getting a lot of Faran & Greg this season (I don't mean this romantically, though I don't think that's 100% out of the question, either). Greg's actor got his billing upgraded between seasons, which implies he'll have more screen time. I don't think the Henry/Faran relationship is long for this world (she's lying to him, he seems resentful that he chose to stay behind with her, she told Kelly she doesn't know what they have in common outside of dance, he ignored her when she asked him to let her handle things, they just aren't clicking), and I think Faran & Greg may end up (unwillingly) teamed up trying to figure out what's going on with Kelly & the church.

Random, but I think we might get a "secluded cabin in the woods" episode this season, since that's a big summer slasher trope and they reminded us right away that Imogen's dad has one of those.

I have 3 categories for characters (not including the main 5 girls), "actual suspects," "suspicious by default, but could go either way," and "keeping my eye on you." Here they are-

Actual Suspects - Mrs. Beasley, Mrs Beasley + Kelly, Mrs. Beasley + Pastor Malachi, Any combination of people from the church, Chip's Mom, Dr. Sullivan.

Suspicious By Default, But Could Go Either Way - Jen, Christian, Johnny, Coach Rhodes, Imogen's dad.

Keeping My Eye On You - Wes, Shawn, Ash, Henry

I think that's it for now. I'm sure I'm wrong about a lot of stuff, but it's the guessing that makes it fun imo.

[pippin-katz]

Hey!

Why does Henry rebuff Alex during their first meeting? Like when Alex greets him, he walks away ignoring him.. What's the theory there?

I'm kinda new here and if this was already discussed or known, my apologies 😊

No prob! I like explaining things, even if it's obvious or everyone is like "we know already". My little neurodivergent brain gets happy when I make neat essays with GIFs and sections and whatnot lol

Post Writing Note: once again, this very simple question with a fairly simple answer turned into a fucking essay and I am so sorry lmfao, I know I said I like making them but I did not intend this to be a long one!! You have been warned!!

Foreword Regarding The Canon

I, and I assume most viewers who have also read the book, interpret the film's canon to be a combination of the film's events, and parts of the book that we didn't see, but could've happened anyway. Things like what was said in the emails, Bea's history with drug abuse, Pez' foundation, and whatnot are sort of meshed together with the film in my mind; just because the film didn't have the time to show it to us does not mean it did not happen in that version of their world. I say this cause I'm going to be discussing both the book and the film.

Also a key: Pink - internal dialogue from the book Red - Alex's dialogue in both versions Blue - Henry's dialogue in both versions

Establishing The Basics

I assume you’re referring to this moment during the greeting line:

Side note: Alex’s face at the end never fails to make me laugh 😂

While this is their first interaction in the film, it’s not their first meeting, as they explain that they met at the Melbourne Climate Conference a few years ago. In the book, they met in Rio at the Olympics when they were teenagers. The only difference this makes is that they're more mature in the film than the book, but it doesn't change much.

The beats for how their first meeting went are practically identical.

Alex approached Henry to introduce himself. Henry, who was dealing with his grief and depression after his father’s passing, was an ass.

He looks at him unkindly; in the film, Alex describes it as: “like he had head lice”, and in the book, Alex describes it as: “like I was the most offensive thing you had ever seen”. Either way, he looked at him in a way that visibly communicated a dislike or lack of respect for him.

Then he turns to Shaan and says he needs to leave, though the wording is different between book and film. In the film, he says, “I need to get out of here” -which Alex mishears as "get me out of here"- while in the book, he says, “Can you get rid of him?”.

Henry Meeting Alex

Admittedly, the line from the book is far more rude, but Henry does explain far later -after Alex storms Kensington Palace and they agree that they’re committed to being together- through an email what he was thinking during their first meeting. I see no reason for these thoughts to be any different in the film's context, as the reason for Henry's behavior is still rooted in his depression and trauma surrounding his father's death. They're also relevant to understanding Henry's behavior.

You might have seen edits or mentions of this email because it’s one of the most memorable.

Henry explains he had been dealing with his trauma by basically compartmentalizing the most impactful -mostly negative- events of his life into “rooms”. He puts those moments into “rooms” in his head, based on the layout of Buckingham Palace. He chooses which room based on how traumatic or impactful it was; two examples he mentions are losing his virginity in college, which he shoves it into “the smallest, most cramped little broom cupboard” he could find, and the night his father died, which he puts in “the biggest room, a ballroom, wide open and dark, windows drawn and covered”.

But when he saw Alex for the first time, he felt such a strong reaction that he took it “down to the gardens” and “pressed it into the leaves of a silver maple and recited it to the Waterloo Vase”. He quite memorably says, “It didn’t fit in any rooms.”

Then he describes what Alex looked like, and how he was talking to Nora and June, and how he was so animated, happy, and beautiful, and Henry was in a dark place, and felt like he couldn't experience life the same way.

Here's the most popular/remembered bit: "I thought, this is the most incredible thing I have ever seen, and I had better keep it a safe distance away from me. I thought, if someone like that ever loved me, it would set me on fire."

Henry basically pushed Alex away on purpose because on top of all the trauma he was experiencing, he was convinced he would ruin him, if you will, and that he didn't deserve someone like Alex.

Alex Meeting Henry

It's easy looking back with the knowledge we have now to wonder why Henry didn't just approach Alex, provide an explanation for his behavior (doesn't have to be his father, any justifiable reason would've worked), and apologize the very next time they saw each other.

But it's important to remember that this was their first ever interaction with each other. Henry was feeling a ton of different emotions, but so was Alex.

Alex is a smart, but stubborn, person. He develops very strong opinions fast, that may make sense, but sometimes fails to consider the alternatives. It's sort of like the two sides of his brain work at different speeds. He's very smart, but sometimes his emotional bias can blind him to fairly obvious things that would change his opinion.

For example, Alex sees Henry as rude, smug, entitled, and a snob, which are all inherently false notions. However, based on his one meeting with him, those aren't unfounded assumptions for him to make.

If you look at it purely from Alex's perspective, not knowing anything about Henry's depression and the depths of his struggle with grief, Henry does act and sound incredibly rude to Alex. Giving someone a nasty look when they introduce themselves to you and then immediately requesting to get out of the conversation, screams: "I don't care about your existence".

Couple that with the fact that Henry is a white, blue-eyed (in the book), blond who was born into royalty, and Alex is a working class person of color who has had to run himself into the ground to get to where he is.

That is the perfect set up for Henry's behavior to be interpreted worse than just rude. All of that information can logically add up to the assumption: Henry is an elitist, racist, asshole.

Before They Met

Alex also secretly admired Henry when he was younger. This wasn't translated to the screen, but like I mentioned, it's something I think of as happening in that universe anyway, just slightly differently.

June gets a teen magazine for her fifteenth birthday; since June isn't part of the film's canon, I can headcanon that this was Nora instead, since she's sort of a combination of the two characters for the movie. All the details don't really matter, but I know someone would be like "but that didn't happen in the movie-" and I just don't feel like explaining that to each comment I end up getting.

There's a teen magazine with a picture of Henry in it. It's a candid picture that captured his actual essence rather than the stuffy pictures Alex had seen on the news. He describes it, saying, "there was a happy, sun-bright confidence to him that couldn't be posed".

Alex definitely developed an unconscious crush on him, not realizing it until later. He would keep going back to the magazine and to the page with him on it. He would touch his hair in the picture, trying to imagine how it felt. He considered prying the stables apart and taking just that page to hide in his room.

As his parents started getting higher in the government, Henry also became his role model. He wanted to match the easy confidence he seemed to have.

But then he met him, and the fantasy he had of him was shattered by how rude Henry was.

The tabloids and news are always comparing Alex to him, which he mentions in the film to Nora in the car. He resents the fact that he's compared to Henry when he has every advantage, if you will, but he also resents that he ever wanted to be like Henry in the first place, having convinced himself now that he was a fake, boring, obnoxious prick.

Because Alex doesn't not know about Henry's dad, but its something he thought about more as a bullet point on his fact sheet rather than considering it any further.

Henry's depression is more explicitly explored in the book, since they have the time to go into all those details. He isolates himself, and has insomnia like he mentioned in the movie, but he also takes medication, and Alex makes a mention of a "tense little grimace Henry does in public" that he thought was him being aloof.

Once Henry mentions his father's passing during their conversation in the hospital closet, Alex's brain puts everything together very fast. He's not stupid, and in the book even says, "He's been aware for too long that most people don't navigate thoughts of whether they'll ever be good enough or if they're disappointing the entire world. He's never considered Henry might feel any of the same things."

Antagonizing Each Other

However, that is all information Alex doesn't have at the wedding. They don't say exactly how many times they've spoken in either version, just that they have met a few times since their first introduction.

Alex, on top of dealing with the comparisons, is convinced that Henry doesn't like him either. The quote from the books is: "The most annoying thing of all is Alex knows Henry hates him too-he must, they're naturally mutual antagonists-but he refuses to outright act like it."

He actively antagonizes him whenever they are at the same event. It's implied in the film when Henry describes him as "the world's most irritating person", but the book makes it clear that Alex is always the one to attack first, if you will.

As soon as Alex goes over to him at the wedding, we can see Henry visibly react in a way that implies he's bothered but has to pretend so they don't cause a scene. His expressions say, "oh here we go 🙄". Henry knows that Alex is going to pick a fight with him. It happens every time they run into each other.

This interaction in the book is pretty iconic and it does a great job of showing what I'm describing. Alex gets drunk and approaches Henry and while they're talking, Henry notices. He suggests Alex switch to water after he makes a lot of rude comments about him pretending to be more important than everyone and pretending to hate the attention the media gives him.

"Should I?" Alex says. He pushes aside the thought that maybe the wine is what gave him the nerve to stomp over to Henry in the first place and makes his eyes as coy and angelic as he knows how. "Am I offending you? Sorry I'm not obsessed with you like everyone else. I know that must be confusing for you."

"Do you know what?" Henry says. "I think you are."

Alex's mouth drops open, while the corner of Henry's turns smug and almost a little mean.

"Only a thought," Henry says, tone polite. "Have you ever noticed I have never once approached you and have been exhaustingly civil every time we've spoken? Yet here you are, seeking me out again." He takes a sip of his champagne. "Simply an observation."

"What? I'm not-" Alex stammers. "You're the-"

"Have a lovely evening, Alex," Henry says tersely, and turns to walk off.

It drives Alex nuts that Henry thinks he gets to have the last word, and without thinking, he reaches out and pulls Henry's shoulder back.

You know what happens from there.

Their conversation in the film is slightly different, but it carries the same beats as the book: Alex approaching Henry, he pretends to be nice while saying something rude, Henry starts retaliating against the comments, Henry tries to walk away, and Alex tries to stop him. In the book, Alex just stumbles when Henry turns back around really fast. He gets tripped up and starts falling, and just like in the movie, he grabs Henry to trying and keep himself upright. The icing on the jacket bit was added into the movie, which I have to say was a brilliant addition.

Back to their conversation, remember that Henry doesn't dislike Alex, rather he's had a crush on him since they met. But Alex has made his opinions very clear, and Henry is not a pushover. He doesn't engage him, but returns the energy he's given. When Alex is rude, he's rude back, but he doesn't start the fight.

I imagine that any attempt Henry could've made to explain or apologize for the Climate Conference/Olympics would have been squashed before he even had the chance by Alex's need to insult him. They also only ever see each other at very public events, so he can't ask why Alex doesn't like him; that's partly why he does it when they're stuck in the broom closet at the hospital.

They're completely alone and have nowhere to go, and it's probably been eating him alive every time he's thought about Alex for the last few years. Even if he doesn't like the answer, he knows that he will get an answer, so he asks.

Why Does Henry Walk Away?

This all being said, back to the moment in question:

The most common interpretation of this interaction is that Henry walks away because 1) he doesn't want to start anything, & 2) he has a raging crush on Alex, and he can't deal with it.

Now, Alex does start off playing nice here, being friendly and polite, but it's a reoccurring issue between them that even if things start off civil, Alex will end up antagonizing him.

They also both "know" that "the other hates them", so they both probably want to avoid each other.

Henry knows that Alex doesn't like him. He doesn't know why Alex doesn't like him, but he's well aware of the animosity. Therefore, he knows that Alex's politeness is a front.

He has a crush on him. He likes Alex, but he's gotten basically nothing but disdain from him since they met. That has to hurt, to have the person you like actively hate you. It also has to hurt knowing that they're pretending to be friendly.

Because Alex is pretending here. He's representing his mother, the President of the United States, at a massive foreign event. He knows better than to act up, so even if he doesn't like him, he is polite with his greeting.

After Henry brushes him off again, he's visibly pissed off, but he doesn't do anything. He avoids him. He stands off to the side, and sort wanders around alone, just drinking and feeling anxious. He has no intention of starting a conflict.

The only reason Alex approaches Henry is because he gets wasted drunk. This is the same in the book. While he was able to control himself before, once he's drunk, he just goes with his first impulses. One of those is to piss Henry the fuck off the second he sees him.

The book says, "[Henry] looks politely half-interested in that obnoxious way of his, like he has somewhere else to be. And Alex can't resist the urge to call his bluff."

This is to say that if Alex hadn't gotten as drunk as he did, he probably would've avoided Henry for the evening. Alex always seeks him out to provoke him, but like I said, he's aware of how important this event is. He does not want to start anything because it could reflect poorly on his mother. But Henry has no reason to think Alex will behave any differently than he has in the past, which he ends up being right about.

So to finally answer your question: Henry walking away was his attempt to avoid the conflict, as well as spare himself the emotional torture that would be watching the person you like be friendly with you, when you know it's fake and that they actually hate you.

Holy fuck, I could've told you that in two sentences but instead it turned into a whole fucking essay for NO REASON! Geez, just why? Why am I like this? lmfao 😭

Thanks for reading!! If you enjoyed this essay & would like to support me, you can give me a tip on my Ko-Fi! ☺️

[mamawasatesttube]

Hello, I'm pretty new to the Superboy fandom. Can I ask you this question:

This part on his Wikipedia page caught my attention.

Do you know the instances (issues, panels, lines, etc) where Kon-el expresses that he doesn't want to be considered Superman's sidekick or similar sentiments?

I would really like to understand more about his feelings regarding his role in relation to Superman and his feelings toward the big man himself.

Thank you, and I apologize if any part of my ask sounds rude to you.

hoookay this is probably gonna be a bit of a doozy but i'll try and keep it concise!!!

first of all, rec-wise, you're probably gonna wanna read the entirety of "reign of the supermen" and "the return of superman". which is a lot, i know, but there's so much going on there that it's honestly hard for me to pick and choose any single issue out of it that would make sense as a standalone.

so at first, before clark himself comes back on the scene, we get things like the classic "don't ever call me 'superboy!'" panel as well as things like this:

where it's clear that kon sees himself as superman, the "real" superman. he does also acknowledge that he's young and he needs to learn to be and do better, as when john henry irons tells him he needs to accept responsibility for his showboating causing frank the helicopter pilot's death, so it's not like he's a full-on arrogant jackass about being the best already, but at this point "superman" is his entire identity. he's not shy about the fact that he's a clone, either; he tells lois, and later, everyone in metropolis via tv, that he is a kryptonian clone and obviously not the og superman himself, but he's still insistent that he is superman.

a fun side note here: this is actually before the retcon that kon was a human with a metagene, so he is actually a full clone of superman!

in fact that's part of why lois knows something is up with cyborg superman in the wake of the destruction of coast city. it's not entirely relevant to the question of their relationship except that it IS my favorite interpretation and also i think it adds a particular flavor to kon's relationship to superman as the gold standard he was made to achieve, the model he was made to emulate.

"Superman... the first Superman... didn't let Doomsday trash his town... and I won't let these creeps rip it down!"

superman is his role model in every way. he respects him a lot even in death and wants to be as much like him as he can. at this point kon's definitely a hotheaded and easily-distracted kid, but he's also all of three weeks old, so...

"Ripping free of this trap would be child's play for Superman... but I'm his clone, aren't I?"

so we can see from early on kon definitely ties his sense of self and his sense of self-worth to "how am i measuring up to superman?" that's a recurring theme we'll see with him over and over.

by the end of the fight with hank henshaw, kon has fully accepted that superman's back and is The OG:

"Check that, Blondie. I'm not Superman. That guy's Superman! The one and only!"

after this we get the "actually a human clone with a ttk metagene" retcon and kon's departure for hawaii:

he leaves for two primary reasons: a) to make a name for himself because he wants to be worthy of the superboy/superman mantle and the s-shield, and b) because editorial wanted superboy to be its own separate title. he thinks the world of superman and wants to make him proud, essentially, while also maintaining his independence.

(clark is also around and interacting him during that retcon arc but i'm a little tired and don't wanna go hunt down any more panels right now, so ... that's for another day.)

and then of course there's superboy (1994) #59, where kon actually gets the name kon-el, something incredibly meaningful to both him and clark:

in summary: kon really, really looks up to clark. he wants to be worthy of his trust and often berates himself when he feels like he's not being enough like superman. his strong drive for independence is part of that: he wants to be totally independent and capable on his own, just like superman.

[deathsbecome]

there's plenty of things addy's missing from the situation: the context of their history, the evidence put against both of them for accusations of the missing kids, the ability to pick up on hints that she's being misled. she doesn't have anything against henry, it's not that william has necessarily turn her against him, but...well, william's better at being able to give her what she wants. experience and a chance to actually work on the technical side of things rather than the cleaning tables and dealing with entitled parents although, far less of them now, as the location's customers have dropped drastically. never mind that a sixteen year old, no matter how talented, shouldn't actually be working directly with the machinery. and besides, the praise of that work also helps to sway her one way or another.

in reality, it's because she likes henry that she keeps this job, too. she feels bad, knows no one would apply to fill her position if they left. the writing is on the wall for the location, and it's not like it had exactly been a great place to work before all of that. certainly were easier jobs with better pay. "well, school comes easily to me, this hasn't changed my stance at the top of my class. and...well, i wouldn't exactly call this the most draining job, especially at this point due to how few people actually come in." which...also didn't say much for the chances of this place staying open for much longer. "what i'm doing there is more relevant to what i am looking to do in the future, it's engaging."

"off?" there are a number of ways she could take the question, none of what she thinks of is that he thinks correctly that william is a serial killer. but...again, she does like henry. still opts to assume it's a more generous interpretation; that at least, at one point, they'd been friends, it would make sense for one to still be curious about the other. william had asked about henry a couple times, if she remembers correctly. "i mean...he's drunk, a lot—he hides it pretty well, but the smell...makes it obvious. plus, well, in so many words, some of his design choices also indicate it." no sober person adds voice mimicry to an animatronic and calls it a security feature. "he just seems...tense, a lot, too."

THE ENGINEER IS NOT EXACTLY HAPPY that his employee (wanting to have her cake &. eat it too, apparently) sought fit to work for his old counterpart, as well. he couldn't prove that william had been the one whom had wreaked such havoc upon his entire life. coring into his heart that rainy evening, &. removing the most coveted part. . . . his charlotte was gone, &. when the dust settled, it was henry's neck that was moist with the breath of hurricane police. demanding he fess up to crimes he didn't commit. assuming he'd been donning the opposite suit that officers would expect of him, to rob the world of it's most innocent creatures. all in a hamfisted attempt at revenge for his sweet little girl's untimely demise.

but the moment he'd allowed himself to suspect william, it had all clicked into place. the man who stayed up with him on some nights where the vastness of sleep just refused to come. the man that comforted him as he cried . . . cried over the child he killed. the child who called him UNCLE WILLIAM --- well, he kicked him out. as much as it was amongst the most difficult decisions he could have made. losing his best friend, his daughter, &. evidently his reputation. the steady stream of revenue drying up fast.

needless to say he was a wreck. again, unable to prove his hunch, he couldn't shove it boisterously in addison's face. she was a child, herself. what good would it do, even if it were his nature? everyone has a better rapport with william . . . it's what happens when he's the quiet, introverted one, &. afton is the one dripping with charisma. it makes henry clench his teeth. realizing quickly he's been set-up to be buried. far too late to stop it now. "i suppose it doesn't. but . . ." he looks away, his lip wrinkling in annoyance. "i'd hate for you to be stretching yourself so thin." hazel eyes flicker back towards the young woman. watching for a moment, while considering his next words.

"haven't you noticed anything . . . off, about him lately?"

[princessasmosprincess]

Charmed, I'm Sure

Chapter 26

Summary: No human has ever avoided Asmodeus's charm. Except for you.

Pairing: Asmodeus x GN Reader/MC

Genre: Drama, angst, a bit of fluff.

Warnings: Sleep inducing magic.

***

Author's Note: I made it in 27 days, that's an improvement for me ;3

***

“I see.” Diavolo folded his hands in front of him on the dinner table as Barbatos began to serve dessert, “So that's how you managed to make it safely out of the underground labyrinth.”

Diavolo had asked for a retelling of your group’s adventure and it had taken all of dinner to explain. Solomon meticulously reported the group’s every move starting from the moment he summoned Asmo to his side, while Mammon and Levi filled in the parts before their party had met up with yours. Beel’s contribution to the conversation was mostly in the form of affirmative grunts as he stuffed his face with Barbatos’ delicious cooking. Every so often, Diavolo would ask direct questions of you or the others, listening intently all the while.

Asmo butted in when it came to the part he had played in the grand escape. His interpretation of the events was quite theatrical and self indulgent, making it seem like using his charm on Henry had been his idea all along. You met eyes with Solomon from across the table but he’d just shrugged and neither of you said anything to correct Asmo’s embellishments to the story.

“You know, now that I think about it, the whole reason we were able to escape was because of me and how stunningly beautiful I am!” Asmo tossed his hair.

“Yeah, but you were also the reason all of you ended up in the labyrinth to begin with, Asmo.” Satan said.

“Right, that's what I'm sayin'. That was terrible, and it was all YOUR fault, Asmo!” Mammon pointed at him accusingly with his dessert fork.

Asmo glared daggers at his older brother. Lies and slander. It had all been a big mistake. Helene had just been too emotional to deal with seeing Asmo’s beauty after so long that she’d lashed out. Who could blame her? He really was that gorgeous. Asmo was about to say something to defend himself when Diavolo spoke.

“You really should be careful in the castle. There are a number of items here with suspicious histories to them.” The demon prince frowned, swirling his glass of Demonus. “I can't guarantee that there aren't others in the castle who also want to get even with you, Asmodeus.”

There was something he wasn't saying, Asmo could tell, just like earlier when he’d given Asmo that odd look before he’d left your assigned room.

But Asmo didn't care, not really. He didn't have time to figure out what Diavolo’s cryptic behavior meant. That was a job for someone closer to the prince, like Lucifer. He’d simply have to wait until Lucifer decided to tell him what it all meant, if it was even relevant by then.

“It's just wrong to be this beautiful…” Asmo sighed.

***

After dinner, everyone thought it best to retire for the night. It had been a very long day.

“Well, time for me to get some sleep. Nighty-night, you two!” Asmo said as he patted an evening moisturizing mask into his skin, his bangs pulled back with a couple of bobby pins. He’d forwent his usual leisurely bath in favor of a quick shower. It was impressive just how efficient his nightly routine was, completing the multi-step process in only minutes.

“You're going to bed already?” Simeon asked, paging through one of the books on the side table, “It's awfully early for that.”

“Lack of sleep leads to unhealthy skin, and I don't want that! I'm sure both of you want to see me looking my best, right?” Asmo hung his silk robe on a hook before searching for something in one of the several bags he’d brought with him. “We have the dance tomorrow, remember? I may no longer be an angel but I’m still that Radiant Jewel everyone knows and loves. I have to dazzle, that’s what people are expecting and I will not disappoint.”

“Well, I suppose that means that I'll get to enjoy some peace and quiet tonight, which is much appreciated.” Simeon selected a book, Dante’s Inferno, and sat on his bed, crossing his ankles as he cracked it open on his lap.

You changed into your pajamas behind the modesty screen, “I was thinking of going to bed now, too.” By the end of dinner you’d had difficulty keeping yourself awake. Satan had even needed to poke you in the side a few times as you’d spaced out over dessert. Your body and mind were worn out from everything that had happened in the labyrinth.

“I hope you have sweet dreams, MC,” said Simeon as he dimmed the lights of the room, leaving a single magically lit candle by his bedside for a reading light.

“Thank you, I hope you do too.” You pulled back the covers on your bed.

“The sweetest dreams are the ones involving me,” Asmo tossed a wink over his shoulder at you as he turned down his own bedding. He pulled out a cobalt blue spray bottle and spritzed the sheets about a dozen times until the vapor glittered in the air as it floated down onto the bed. He took a deep breath, inhaling the fragrance, “You’ll have to tell me if something spicy happens between the two of us, it’s only fair.” He set the bottle down on the bedside table before hopping onto his bed.

The poof of the comforter under Asmo’s weight sent a bit of the fine mist swirling in your direction, you could feel it settling over your skin. It was a pleasant scent, relaxing and cozy.

Asmo slipped a pink silk sleep mask over his eyes as he nestled into the plush bedding, his back turned to you.

The bedroom door burst open.

“HEY! Look who's here...it's Mammon! And you know what that means?! You ain't gonna be gettin' ANY sleep tonight! АНАНАНА!” He made a beeline for your bed and sat, bouncing a few times.

“Mammon, it's late,” you complained, making a point to lay back onto your pillow and pulling the covers over yourself.

Simeon gave a longsuffering sigh, “Asmo, he's your brother, isn't he? Do you think you could possibly do something about him?”

Asmo gave a low growl, tipping up the corner of his sleep mask as he sent a single sticker over text to Lucifer. How that could possibly be helpful, you weren't sure.

“All right all right all right! Time for a pillow fight deathmatch with the Avatar of Greed himself!” He clawed at your sheets as if to free you from your comfy nest of blankets, while you did everything in your power to keep them around you. “LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!”

The screen of Asmo’s D.D.D. went dark and he further cocooned himself in the plush comforter.

“Mammon, please,” You debated trying a pact command on him to get him to stop, but without the use of magic it was very hit or miss whether a command would “take”. It was more like a suggestion and gentle prodding in your favor rather than full control over him, and he usually had to be paying attention and already somewhat inclined to do what you asked. Right now Mammon was neither.

“Let's get started before that ass Lucifer comes round on patrol and starts botherin' us!” He laughed mischievously, tearing the pillow from under your head.

“I'm sorry. Who did you just call an ass?” Lucifer’s dark form filled the doorway.

“Yikes!” Mammon ducked behind your bed.

Lucifer crossed the room in three strides, “You're coming to my room. Now. And tonight it's not going to be just me in there, but Diavolo as well. I have a feeling we're going to have all sorts of fun, don't you?” His eyes glowing as his hand closed tightly around Mammon’s forearm, yanking him out the door and closing it behind him.

When the room was silent once again, Asmo shifted under the covers and Simeon resumed reading his book by candlelight.

Despite that brief disruption, you could feel the tension of the day rolling off of you as you settled into your own bed, replacing your pillow and cuddling into the comforter once more, everything fading to black as your eyes slipped closed.

You drifted off to sleep in a cloud of lavender and vanilla and something herbal you couldn't quite place…

***

You woken up way too soon by a knock at the bedroom door.

“Come in!” Asmo sang cheerfully. He'd already been awake for a while, having completed his morning skincare routine, now putting the finishing touches on his makeup as he hummed to himself.

The door swung open and Lucifer stepped into the room.

“Good morning, Lucifer,” Simeon stretched as he woke, greeting his former brother. “You're up bright and earlier than I’m used to. That’s two days in a row.”

“With good reason,” said Lucifer, his voice gruff from the earliness of the hour but his appearance pristine, “Breakfast will begin in twenty minutes, I trust none of you will be late, especially the two of you under my charge?”

“I’m almost ready,” Asmo said, twirling once in front of the bathroom mirror. “Oh but look at them, still snoozing away. It’s like we have another Belphie on our hands.”

You were still snuggled into the comforter.

It felt like it had been no more than a few minutes since you went to bed last night. Like Lucifer had dealt with Mammon and returned right away. Confused, you tried to will your eyes to open, but they wouldn't. Your mind was awake, and you could hear everything that was going on. But you were still tired.

It wouldn't take you that long to get ready, five more minutes of sleep would be fine…

Lucifer nudged your shoulder. “MC, wake up.”

“Mmh…” You rolled over in bed and sunk deeper into the covers, not being able to find the words to answer Lucifer or send him away.

With a sigh, he knelt at your bed, leaning over your sleeping form. The lingering scent of Asmo’s pillow spray wafted over you with his movement.

“Not a morning person? Well neither am I,” Lucifer’s low voice whispering in your ear would have sounded seductive if he didn't follow it up with a mild threat, “Downstairs in twenty minutes or I’ll have Beel eat your portion of breakfast.”

It didn't matter, your eyes still wouldn't open and your limbs felt heavy and useless. You couldn't get out of bed and you didn't really want to. It was too early for this, though you didn't know what time it was. You just knew you needed to sleep longer.

Your enchanted bracelet buzzed away on your ankle, feeling like a light shock of electricity, a zap running up your leg. But you began to tune it out. You were so… So sleepy…

Lucifer sniffed the air as he stood between your bed and Asmo’s. “Is that Nightfog oil?”

“Hmm?” Asmo was busy gazing into his own eyes in the mirror. “Oh, yes it is. It’s in that new pillow spray I got from Savonne,” he indicated the spray bottle on the bedside table, “Doesn't it just smell lovely?”

Lucifer gave an exasperated sigh, “Asmodeus, you can't use Nightfog oil around humans, not without taking extreme care. It’s too potent.”

“What? How was I supposed to know?” Asmo squeaked.

“You would know if you paid attention in Applied Magical Potions last semester,” Lucifer picked up the glass bottle and squinted to read the ingredients list. There was no warning label. He would have to inform Diavolo so the oversight could be corrected. “It can cause somnolence, and in large doses, prolonged sleep. You only used it on your own bed, correct?”

“Huh?” Asmo didn't realize he was gripping the edge of the countertop so tightly until he heard a faint pop sound and looked down to see the cracks spiderwebbing from his fingertips across the surface. He pushed off from the counter and went to dig in his makeup bag for some nail polish to fix a chipped nail. “Yes, I… It wasn't a very large dose, I just sprayed it a few times on the sheets.”

“They had no direct contact with it?”

Asmo shook his head, avoiding Lucifer’s eye as he twisted open the bottle of pink nail polish, trying to hide the slight tremor in his voice, “Th-they should be ok then, right?”

Lucifer shook you a bit harder to see if you would stir. “Direct contact or ingestion is when Nightfog oil is at its most…” He chose his words carefully, noticing Asmo’s anxiety, “Efficacious. The fact that it’s been diluted with other ingredients is also good but…” You just continued to sleep, now snoring lightly.

“Oh dear,” Simeon came to your bedside. “Is there something we can do? I would offer to give them a blessing but I don’t think that would be wise to do within the Demon Lord’s castle.”

“No, it wouldn't be.” Lucifer scrubbed his face with his hand. This was the last thing he wanted to be dealing with right now, especially at this hour. He waved toward the bed behind him, “We have to remove the stimuli. Strip the sheets and pillows from Asmo’s bed and have the little Ds come collect them. They’ll need to be replaced.” He got up and threw open the window while Simeon dealt with the bedding.

Asmo chewed on his lip as he watched from the bathroom doorway as Lucifer performed a spell to neutralize and expel the remaining scent. A light breeze rustled the sheets of your bed.

Lucifer moved to wake you again, rather aggressively if his body language was anything to go by, when Simeon laid a hand on his shoulder and took his place, kneeling by your side.

“MC, dear,” He brushed your hair out of your face, “It’s time to wake up.”

At Simeon’s caress, you began to stir. He helped you to sit up in bed as you stretched and woke.

“Nightfog oil, huh.” You grumbled, rubbing your tired eyes.

Asmo’s shoulders sagged in relief, as did Lucifer’s.

You swung your legs over the side of the bed and reached down to massage your calf, the shock from your bracelet only just beginning to fade.

“Crisis averted.” Lucifer shot Asmo a pointed look, “I think we can forgo punishment this time since it seems to have been an accident. The last thing I need is for Diavolo to complain that I’m being too hard on you again.”

“Again?” Asmo asked.

He picked up the bottle of pillow spray, ignoring Asmo’s question, “However, I'm confiscating this so you don’t accidentally put MC under a hundred years�� restless sleep.” He slipped it into his pocket with a wry smile as the clock tower chimed a quarter to the hour. Lucifer caught your eye, “Fifteen minutes.” And swept out the door.

You stood and stumbled your way to the bathroom to get ready, nearly bumping into Asmo.

Something strange crossed over Asmo’s face, but it was gone as soon as it came, “Oh my,” He giggled nervously as he took in your bed head and bleary, dark rimmed eyes, glaring right at him.

With a quick nod, he shoved a jar of eye cream into your hands and hurried after Lucifer.

***

The magic eye cream Asmo let you borrow made you look well-rested, but you were practically falling asleep at the breakfast table.

When Diavolo caught you yawning as you filled your plate, he recommended Assam tea and personally poured you a cup. You were sure you saw Lucifer laughing behind his hand when he saw your reaction to your first sip, but he hid it well, falling back into polite conversation before you could call him out.

You’d only been able to choke down the bitter tea once you added copious amounts of honey (of the non-poisonous variety, Mammon wouldn't pass you the jar until he’d made sure of that, despite Barbatos informing him he'd only set the table with human-safe options) and milk to it. The tea did give you a little caffeine buzz and helped you feel more alert, but sleep’s siren call still tempted you in the recesses of your mind.

“All right, it's time to explain what we have planned for day two of our retreat.” Lucifer said, standing at the head of the breakfast table once everyone had finished eating.

“A scavenger hunt, right?” said Simeon.

“Yes, we'll be having a scavenger hunt.” Lucifer confirmed. “Each group will be given riddles to solve. Each riddle hints at one of the works of art or historical items here in the castle. Once you figure out the answer, you find and take a picture of the item in question. The things you learned during yesterday's tour of the castle should come in handy as you try solving your riddles.” He passed out itemized lists to everyone.

“We're doing this in groups, huh? In that case, I'm groupin' up with MC.” Mammon reached for your hand.

“Why don't we just say that the groups will be made up of the same people you share a room with?” Diavolo suggested.

Mammon growled, there was no arguing with the prince, not while Lucifer was there. He stomped away to join his group as everyone left the table, lists in hand.

Simeon helped you up from your chair, while Asmo hovered at a distance, waiting as the other groups dispersed in random directions.

“Since you actually got to finish the tour yesterday, Simeon, you’ll have to lead.” You said.

“Of course, I’d be happy to,” said Simeon. He scanned down the list thoughtfully. “Hm, Let’s start with the difficult things first.” He chose a riddle at the bottom of the list and read it through a few times. “The answer to this one is… The enchanted moondial in the back garden.”

“Alright,” Asmo gave a mock salute and took off, not waiting for either of you.

With a shrug, you took Simeon’s offered hand and the two of you followed after him.

**

Cross-posted on AO3

[still-a-morosexual-help]

3, 7, and 17 for the MC ask game? :>

+ the ones asked by @bisexualdumbass-world

So my MC is basically just general MC but with a backstory/more specific likes and dislikes

All my fics for unnamed gn! mc × mammon are based off my MC because their personalities are so similar & it's easier to write with a concrete figure in mind [ AO3 ]

If you know me by now, you know it's gonna get long as I explain things, add headcanons and the reasons behind them, add links to theories about the lore/world building/general mc & add links to any fic of mine that's relevant

This became a semi masterpost for all my posts dissecting + discussing general MC × Mammon's relationship & for 14 of my fics :))

Also asks are temporarily open again because I got lonely

And for context (& because I can't draw people):

[picrew link]

My theorised OM! time frame -> 3 years from S1 to S4 & why

1. How does your MC react to being summoned to the Devildom?

In this theory , I said that at some point in history the existence of the other two realms was an open secret to (at least some) humans but with the war, the rebellion & them practically shutting themselves up it became myth & then transformed into religion

Under this theory, a lot more humans would have been raised hearing stories/myths/folklore of the other realms. The interpretation of the realms and their residents may vary between people but the core is the same.

Eliza's mother (like general MC's mother was supposed to be) was a painter & a descendent of Lilith, who despite not being religious was very interested in the stories and so painted scenes from them.

Eliza didn't spend long with their mother (theory)* but the stories featured heavily in what little time they had together so they grew up seeing angels/demons in the same way most people see sentient/intelligent aliens.

aka:

You don't put much thought into it in your daily life, you're completely fine with never seeing one/confirming they're real, if someone asks if you believe in them you shrug & say "who knows" while 75% of you believes they probably aren't real. If confronted with hard evidence of their existence you'd probably be more shocked about seeing them/meeting them than the fact that they're real

+

In OM! at the very beginning it also says that MC signed up for an exchange program I believe? As in they weren't just randomly kidnapped. They were given the opportunity, they signed up and instead of going to where ever in the human world they were supposed to go they ended up in a mythical realm

=

More than being shocked that they were kidnapped by monsters under the bed, they were shocked that the cultural exchange program they signed up for was with aliens

So they adapted to it a lot quicker than they should've though a part of them still believed they were dreaming until they hurt their wrist when Levi tried to kill them

*this is mostly to explain why general MC doesn't seem to have a family, why they're so ready to leave the human world & join the brothers' family, why there's never a mention of more descendents of Lilith which rightfully the brothers would be interested in

Ik there's no mention about others because this is MC's story and they also needed to make MC more customizable for the players but since my MC is general MC I needed a solid reason for it

3. How does your MC feel about Cerberus and Henry?

They adore Henry 2.0 and make a point of asking Levi how he's doing every once in a while (mc asking Levi how Henry 2.0 is doing is actually canon and adorable!!)

They absolutely whipped their phone out to take pictures of both Henry 1.0 & Cerberus while they were being chased/attacked by them.

By this point of the game, as long as they're not sneaking into the labyrinth, Cerberus has come to accept them as just another member of the household and (like general MC) their rotation of chores now includes grooming/walking Cerberus.

They've got a lot of pictures of him taken by their professional camera and they have an entry on him in their "journal"/ the book they're putting together about the animal life of all three worlds

They're still trying to convince Barbatos to let them go to the dungeons in the Demon King's Castle to take pictures of Henry 1.0

4. How would your MC react to the brothers almost killing them and/or hurting them?

They don't even register Mammon's threats and have no problem snapping back at him from the beginning*¹

When Levi & Beel try they're in a dazed numb shock and they remain quiet till (in Levi's case) Mammon brings out the line about 'dying next time they're in trouble instead of letting anyone else save them' and the line itself and the entire situation is so ridiculous that they end up laughing (somewhat hysterically) as everything catches up with them.

In Beel's case they're shocked out of it when Mammon blames them for eating Beel's custard and they immediately start scrambling to defend themself to Lucifer, while also throwing Mammon under the bus.

When Lucifer tries to kill them the first time, they hardly remember any of it but they're silent and contemplative afterwards.*² They try not to dwell on any of the times and they push themself to keep looking forward

Asmo's & Satan's ones put them off the most because they were both the ones who were initially nicest to them without needing to build any deeper friendships/connections. Asmo & Satan's threats were graphic and sounded like promises more than threats. They tiptoed around the two of them after that and found comfort in the pacts because it meant they had a way to defend themself. Satan apologising meant that they relaxed around him quicker than they relaxed around Asmo.

They usually dismissed Lucifer's threats, pretending that if they didn't believe them or sneered back at him/laughed them off, it'll mean Lucifer wasn't serious. Though I did end up writing a whole fic about the time Lucifer hurt their wrist*³

They were angry when Lucifer tried to hurt them the second time. They were betrayed and livid but things happened so fast afterwards it got pushed back and the only resolution they had was when they got to punch him (in the shoulder/arm) after they reunited

They stayed away from Belphie/tried their best to interact with him only when the others were around. In the end their desperate need to reunite the family (because hell they went through this much BS they might as well see it to the end) won out in the end and they interacted with him more than they were comfortable with in order to do so. Remember Gisella who said you never forget the way you die? Their body hurts now - some days (most days) it's barely noticeable but on others they can't even make it outta bed. On these days, even after they're completely comfortable with Belphie and usually have no problem napping with him, they can't even look at him without flinching away.

After nearly getting killed so many times and then actually dying and being brought back to life, what little self preservation they had completely disintegrated. They now have a tendency to make light of all the near death experiences and any future experience as well - as a way to cope? No! They're perfectly fine! :)))))

5. What would be your MC’s favorite class at RAD?

Devildom Zoology & Devildom History

7. What job would your MC like the most?

They technically are a wildlife photographer but are currently without a stable job

Photographer because of all those pictures on Devilgram where the LIs are staring at the camera with heart eyes but the photos itself looks like they were taken by a professional

Wildlife photographer because they need to be patient, cool & calm, adaptable, used to dealing with possibly dangerous animals etc and MC having a job where they need all those traits would explain how they got used to the chaos of the Devildom so easily

10. Where would your MC go to escape it all in the Devildom?

They'll usually take their camera and head out into the woods.

11. How would your MC react to going back to the human realm after spending a year at RAD? Would they try to go back to things being normal?

They try to put on a brave face when leaving, specially because they always knew this was coming but they're absolutely devastated and they feel stupid for it.

They don't have a family (unknown father, dead mother & no relations at all from her side) and have always moved around too much + worked too much to form any deep relationships (both platonic & romantic) and so they've never really found a place or people in the human world where they can come out of their shell/open up more (something that Lucifer notes in S2 is that MC is now more open about their emotions). Despite this they've always being fascinated by families & in the Devildom they felt like they finally found their place so having to leave and not knowing if they'd ever be back was heartbreaking

They tried to get back to normal but the world now seemed duller and they were, ironically, homesick*⁴ & counted the days till their once a week calls.

(Like general MC) They lose weight during their time in the human world.

Despite all the evidence that everything that happened was real there are days when they wonder if it was all a dream and:

I headcanon that Eliza's pact with Mammon is on their right palm for many reasons (the most prominent being that scratching your right palm means you're going to get money) but also:

After leaving the Devildom in S2 they move to a bigger apartment & get a roommate because they start getting luckier with money so they can afford it and after the loud chaos of the HoL they needed to hear someone else moving around their home*⁵

12. What would your MC write their paper on for the exchange program?

It'd mostly be a general paper covering all topics - from culture & food, to the people & RAD (they gloss over a lot of the "nearly dying" parts)

Additionally in their time in the Devildom they start photographing the animals + supernatural creatures they find there and then doing research on them. They get a thick old blank paged tome (the actual book from Satan, but with Solomon's magic so that they never run out of blank pages & so that only they can open it) where they make entries for each animal/creature with the research material they found & attached pictures.

13. How would your MC wear the RAD uniform?

They normally wear a similar uniform to the brothers. They start the day with everything neat & in place and end it with their tie tucked into a pocket, the jacket open, the shirt's first few buttons unbuttoned. When it's cold they'll have a light-material hoodie peeking out from under their shirt. Every once in a while, they'll wear a skirt with black leggings.

16. What sort of magic would your MC want to learn the most?

Summoning magic would obviously take precedence over everything else but (like general mc) they'd be able to easily pickup healing magic and they find it really useful as well

17. Would MC prefer Diavolo’s dances/balls or Asmo’s parties?

They don't have a preference and the answer could change depending on the day because it's fun to dress up for Diavolo's dances & to hang out with everyone else but they can be overly stuffy depending on who's there.

Asmo's parties are always fun but the later you stay the hornier they get and that can become uncomfortable

18. What is your MC’s relationship like with the brothers?

To make the story fit more with my characterizations, I work under the assumption that not all the characters are in love with Eliza. All of them have somewhat of a passing curiosity (you know when you suddenly see someone you've never liked in a romantic or sexual context do or say something and you suddenly get a flash of desire and wanting that's gone as quickly as it came? Eg: me at the tall dude sitting in the middle of the class and nodding along with my presentation while everyone else was focused on preparing for their own presentations. Nearly dropped down on one knee and pulled out a ring at that moment) - but that's it. None of the side characters have an actual crush on them (except Thirteen eventually). All the brothers had a small crush on them at one point or another but once they realise Eliza doesn't return their feelings it settles into the background - still present but not important (you know when you get a major crush on some person but nothing ever happens and now you're completely happy with their friendship but every once in a while your brain lets out a longing what if)

They're initially a bit in awe of Lucifer (a little bit attracted to him even though they'd gun-to-their-head deny it) until they have the "oh he's an asshole" realisation and then they're scared of him but also willing to put that aside to help Belphie because 1. They can't stand to see Beel sad. 2. The brothers clearly all adore each other but they have so many issues that are tearing them apart and Eliza who has always wanted a family is pissed by how they seem to be taking it for granted. 3. Lucifer was a dick and now they want to be petty and openly defy him. Once things get settled and they realise that "oh he's still an asshole but he's also an overworked, overprotective dad with ptsd" they become more open to the idea that Lucifer's not as bad under everything. They still go out their way to annoy him/defy him but when it comes down to it they'll always listen to what he says and follow his orders. They also tease him about the crush he has on them. They have weekly (sometimes daily) private meetings where they drink tea and Lucifer gets to finally open up and complain about everything.*⁶ Whenever he works late they make him coffee (the kind that bets bitter depending on how much the person making it loves the person they're giving it to). Eliza can fluctuate from being the only other adult in the room that Lucifer can depend on to giving him just as much hell as the rest of his brothers. They'd deny it but they preen whenever he's proud of them because more than anything they want him to accept them. Whenever Lucifer simps for Diavolo (which he does in canon) they always side eye him with the most smug look ever. Their entire relationship can be summed up by Eliza punching him (in the shoulder/arm) because he's being emotionally constipated and they were worried about him and then immediately hugging him tightly.

If you've read my Mammon x General MC posts you know exactly what this relationship is like:

Mammon being terrifying

Mammon & MC sharing a room

He canonically does not steal from them

Mc x Mammon & love languages

MC praising Mammon

MC being a simp p1

MC being a simp p2

Mammon being protective p1

Mammon being protective p2

Summary of their relationship throughout the seasons and how it's changed & the parallels that show that growth

MC & Mammon's crows

Being supportive of each other

Mc being possessive

Mammon's Self Esteem when MC is present

Mammon literally being created to be MC's best friend

Mammon vs Solomon

Mammon Vs the new characters

Mammon x mc 🔞

MC hearing about Mammon from the perspective of other demons

Mammon x MC & teasing p1

Mammon x MC & teasing p2

Why Mammon made the pact *⁷

Mammon x MC playlist (specifically "Stand by You - Rachel Platten" for Eliza × Mammon from Eliza's pov & "Family - Mother Mother" for Eliza's thoughts about the brothers)

Mammon & MC's business p1

Mammon & MC's business p2

Mammon being the original morosexual

Mammon x MC being Enemies to friends to lovers

Mammon - consent, apologising & prioritising where MC is concerned

Mammon x MC in S1 & S2

Overall, they're partners in crime/best friends who are stupidly in love with each other

And I think their relationship can be summarised as:

Being dumb best friends who are in love*⁸

MC being protective af P1*⁹

MC being protective af P2*¹⁰

Eliza is very indulgent of Levi and considers him a best friend as well. They're always up to binge watch anime with him, play games, go to cons, cosplay & sing karaoke. They take a heavy interest in whatever he's doing while also gently brushing away the crush he has on them. Though in my version, mostly to avoid hurting Levi, his crush is mostly superficial and becomes a "friendship crush" once they get close (yknow that one friend you have no romantic or sexual interest towards but you're a bit in awe of them & would also totally marry them no questions asked). Levi's the one who introduced Eliza to anime/manga/games and though they don't watch/play them on their own they're always more than happy to stay up the whole night doing so with Levi.

Satan & general MC have the most underrated friendship is2g. I have a half written post about how similar the two of them are which I'll post later and then add the link here but till then trust me, they are very similar - their situations more than their personality (though personality wise there are some similarities as well) and they tend to find comfort in each other because of that. Eliza can always depend on Satan whether it's with help finding research for a certain animal, helping with a spell they're supposed to learn, helping with work at RAD etc. He also feels comfortable about opening up about all his issues to them and he trusts their opinion more than anyone else's (remember in S3 when he looked at them to confirm who he was as a person?). They can also exist in comfortable silence around each other, both doing their own thing. Eliza is also a comfort and stabilising force for him when he's upset (literally just all their main interactions in S3. How they sat together and held hands in silence when he was upset in S3 was absolutely beautiful). They constantly recommend books to each other and have discussions about them.

They have a friendly indifference towards Asmo until he threatens them, makes a pact with them and then starts coming on to them strongly all in the same night and then they become wary of him and make sure to keep their distance. They do soothe things over once Asmo realises Eliza's just genuinely not interested in him and that he has an opportunity to make a friend without anything romantic or sexual involved, just someone who's not at all attracted to him in that way and while it does still annoy him, it also piques his interest. He can trust them to be upfront with him about anything without attraction clouding their judgement so he can actually get an unbiased, objective opinion from them about what actually looks the best on him. He still flirts with them but now it's just to see them fondly roll their eyes. He is a very heavy Mammon × MC shipper and is more than happy to play wingman (P1 & P2). He paints their nails and actually starts Eliza on self care routines and the occasional spa days. He's very clingy with them and once they become proper friends they don't mind having him hang off their arm or cuddle into their side.

They're very protective of Beel because they somehow see him as a little brother despite the fact that he could break them in two using just one hand. The whole reason they agreed to help Belphie was because they saw how upset Beel was about Belphie being gone. They always carry around snacks for him (like general MC) and though they would hate it if any of the others just randomly/spontaneously picked them up and carried them places they don't mind if it's Beel. They have however stolen a number of his t-shirts & jackets because they're huge and comfortable. They're always up for trying a new restaurant with him because, like Beel, they're not fussy about food and will try anything at least once. While they always make sure to buy food/bring him food if Beel texts them & asks, they also hold him accountable when he eats their labelled food. They always go to his matches and he usually manages to drag them to exercise together (MC is canonically able to kick open Levi's locked door and all that strength must come from somewhere). Like general MC; Eliza, Mammon, Levi & Beel hang out and get into trouble frequently & have weekly gaming nights. I can't find the post I made about it (but you can play the locked chapters of Lesson 4 to see what I'm talking about), Beel also "ships" Mammon × MC

Eliza initially doesn't trust Belphie and refuses to help him until they see how upset Beel is and agrees. They form a friendship while Belphie tells them stories about his brothers from inside the attic. After he kills them, they're much more wary of him, to the point that they feel uncomfortable standing close to him - though they push this all aside for the sake of everyone else. Even at the time of making the pact they are uncomfortable around him but making the pact and then hanging out with him & Beel starts soothing over their fears. Though going to the attic at all is painful for them at this point. Belphie isn't oblivious to any of this but tries his hardest not to let it affect him. (I have a fic based on this but it's not complete yet, when I finish it I'll post the link). After they become proper friends, they don't mind napping with him or even being in the attic with him alone, though they're less touchy-feely with him than they are with the others despite loving him as much as them and considering him family. On days that their body hurts a lot they avoid him and he knows how to recognise those days and retreat to the attic to sleep them away. After the pain has gone or reduced to its normal state (which can take 1-3 days) they always make sure to immediately seek him out so that they can nap together. They've also learnt to use him killing them against him. Eg: Belphie: refusing to do something that they really need his help with. Eliza: "Hey, remember that time you killed me :)". Belphie's also one of the brothers with a bigger/more persistent crush on them.

Overall, they're family.

And I have 2 mini fics that explore the relationships between all of them & MC:

MC and physical contact during pact formation*¹¹

Eliza and giving gifts during the brothers' birthdays*¹²

+ 1 fic of them all being a family with Lilith*¹³

19. What is your MC’s relationship like with the side-characters?

Luke is their son adjacent if that makes sense? He's not their son but he's close? Like a little cousin or a nephew. They're very indulgent of him and happily go along with whatever he says. The trips with Mammon & Luke to look for mythical/supernatural creatures becomes a thing.

They're much more quiet/subdued with Simeon than they're with any of the others because they hold the same sort of respect for him that is usually reserved for your grandfather. If Simeon liked Eliza romantically (which he doesn't in my version) he'd be grandfather-zoned and I think it doesn't get any worse than that

They're the least close with Barbatos and are somewhat intimidated by him and so are much more reserved when interacting one on one with him. They do taste test human (& Devildom) teas for him pretty frequently though (like general mc)

So canonically MC is probably the first person to see Diavolo instead of Lord Diavolo and yeah. Lucifer & Barbatos are still obviously Diavolo's closest friends but Eliza becomes his go to for more emotional problems/rants. He's going to gush about the exact colour of Lucifer's eyes for 57 minutes and Eliza is going to think "damn maybe there are perks to being homophobic :/" but they're going to (painfully) listen till he's run out of steam, because who else can he tell any of this to? And then they're going to suggest he actually tell Lucifer that he has beautiful eyes because if they get together hopefully this will stop (if they get together it will only get worse). Diavolo does tell Lucifer, but it completely flies over his head because he's oblivious like that and "haha it's just Diavolo being Diavolo". Eliza considers throttling him. Diavolo can also trust them to be painfully blunt and give their honest opinion when he makes suggestions about any new ideas/parties.

They have a lot of respect for Solomon but they also think he's batshit crazy so while they're willing to help him out whenever, they're always wary about what exactly that will entail. They do work very hard though because, while naturally being hardworker, they also want to live up to his (non-existent) expectations (seriously mc could breathe and solomon would be proud). He's also their go to when they want to complain about the brothers (as much as they love them). Because they're so curious (nosy) they do get frustrated by how much they still don't know about Solomon and how he evades the questions when they just straight up ask him.

Bonus:

They completely indulge Number 2 in his need to terrorise Mammon and happily play the part of Number 2's other parent*¹⁴ despite knowing that this is a full grown man who's much older than them. That being said they're not above threatening him with bodily harm when he pushes them right to the edge (which is true for all their relationships with the brothers and which is true for general MC as well)

Remember these seven little assholes? Eliza absolutely considers them their weird ass adopted kids. (Valago & MC) (what I think they look like with the help of the above picrew)

20. What is your MC’s relationship like with Raphael, Mephistopheles, and Thirteen?

Raphael starts his intro by more or less telling MC that they've heard bad things about each other and this holds true for Eliza as well. After everything they've gone through in the last 3 years, Eliza is somewhat protective of the brothers so their guard is up around Raphael. They have no real reason to pick a fight with him but they also tend to go out of their way to antagonise/tease him. Despite this they really are trying their best to be more civil because Lucifer asked them to + they want to mend the bridges between the three worlds as fast as possible. Despite their reluctance, because of how adaptable they (and general mc) are, they end up working fairly well with him

Eliza can be oblivious (and I think it's hilarious) so it takes them a while to realise who Thirteen is. As in when Thirteen accuses them of breaking into her house they're genuinely like ??????????? They go with the flow when Thirteen's pissed at them but they are genuinely confused about who exactly Thirteen is and why she's upset until some time later. They're also curious about her and her way of talking sometimes reminds them of Mammon. Thirteen's own extremely fiery personality makes Eliza take on the role of calming her down, even if that means drawing the attention towards themself. When Thirteen eventually gets a crush on them it's going to take them the longest time to realise it/believe what the others are telling them. Unfortunately for Thirteen (and me cause: Thirteen🥺❤) they get a lot of "little sister" vibes from her and treat her accordingly (did I somewhat unconsciously decide this to stop myself from jumping ship to Thirteen despite leaving Mammon being clearly against Eliza's personality? Maybe.)

Up to this point they're mostly indifferent towards Mephisto or at most annoyed that after everything he still wants to oppose their place in the Devildom. Also no matter how much fun they have with getting on Lucifer's nerves they're protective of him when someone outside of the family & their close friends do so. After getting to know him better they become his go to place when he wants to rant about something and they willingly listen even if they occasionally (somewhat fondly) roll their eyes and wonder how they ended up here.

**Despite being everyone's therapist + problem solver, Eliza tends to keep their own worries, problems, doubts, anxieties & hurt to themself until someone notices and forces it out of them and this is probably because they've been independent/self-sufficient almost their entire life. (This is something general MC also does either on purpose or accidentally as seen in the "snowed in" event)**

*¹ Perspectives (unnamed gn! mc × mammon)

Lucifer watches as years pass and everything changes.

*² Hook, Line and- (unnamed gn! mc × mammon)

Five times Mammon used a bad pick-up line to try stealing the exchange student's wallet and three times he didn't.

*³ Warm Nooks and Such Things (unnamed gn!mc × mammon)

They were hurt.

They were lonely.

They were tired.

What they wanted, what they truly wanted, was a nap. Obviously they hadn't taken a certain demon into consideration.

*⁴ Interlude (unnamed gn! mc × mammon)

They try to suppress it. The ever looming shadow of their homesickness. His presence helps.

Also there's a spider.

*⁵ From the Other Side (unnamed gn! mc × mammon)

Mammon and his human watch movies for Halloween and Mammon wonders what exactly is wrong with humans.

*⁶ The Thing About (Demon) Families (implied unnamed gn! mc × mammon)

In which Lucifer reflects on one of his six annoying baby brothers while a human not-so-silently judges him.

a.k.a. the one where Lucifer is trying his best to be a good big brother but in all honesty he probably needs therapy (they all do)

*⁷ Familiar Strangers (unnamed gn mc × mammon)

Mammon gets a little more time with the strange angel his little brothers picked up and picks up a few things of his own.

*⁸ The 5 Step Plan to Scamming an Angel (unnamed gn! mc × mammon)

They place their bet. Five steps. That's all it'll take to utterly and thoroughly neutralize the Devildom's second most powerful demon.

*⁹ Certified Idiots™ (unnamed gn! mc × mammon)

Someone had hurt their First Man and they'd walk through hell to make things right.

*¹⁰ A+ Pillow Talk (unnamed gn! mc × mammon)

He was lying to them. It's what he has always been doing. And they deserved more. They deserved so much more. He owed them so much more. And for once this was a debt he wanted to repay.

a.ka.

That one post-coital breakdown we've all definitely had

*¹¹ Physical Contact (implied unnamed gn! mc × mammon)

Physical Contact made during the Pact formation for all 7 brothers

*¹² Demonic Celebrations (my mc x mammon)

Six minfics where the human exchange student celebrates the brothers' birthdays

*¹³ Speaking to Myself (very lightly implied unnamed gn! mc x mammon but mostly just the brothers grieving Lilith)

He missed her more deeply than was comprehensible but he would always remain eternally grateful for the human sleeping curled up in their room.

*¹⁴ A Whole New World (unnamed gn! mc x mammon)

Mammon was way too old to be discovering new kinks but the human has always had an odd effect on him

Related:

Facts about General MC

MC's Magic

MC being questionably human

MC's Flaws and why they're not a "Mary Sue"

My MC in more Detail

MC Ask Meme

[obeymematches]

Do you think levi sheds🤔

okay i took way too much time with it but here is what i found out with google searching & some late-afternoon coffee

so first if we look at his origins in Judaism and in his appearance in Tanakh, while the latter considers him as more of a dragon / snake (serpent), but in medieval Judaism she is considered to be a fish. (yes fish leviathan has she/her pronouns in some sources but also it).

however i thought it wasn't so relevant for us as we are talking about obey me here. it goes without saying how the characters were inspired more by Christianity - newer version of the Christian Bible suggests (in a friggin FOOTNOTE i'm losing my mind) Leviathan is in fact a crocodile. i'd assume the bible i got in 2015 when my HS turned catholic (and everyone got a free bible because church be rich) would have this information so i got my water-stained but otherwise still readable copy and to my disappointment it didn't clarify nothing. (no surprise though)

if we consider him as an alligator / crocodile type reptile then he does shed; he does it scale-by-scale, one-by-one, not the one-layer-at-once type shedding like snakes do. personally i like the idea of a crocodile-like shedding more as in-game only part of his demon form is animal-like. though i respect if you think otherwise, considering how many interpretations of Leviathan there are and how nothing of this short is canon in-game (yet?).

i would assume his pets (henry 1.0 who was a snake and henry 2.0 who is a fish) hint at how ambiguous his being is or how he is neither of those (though both can be true at the same time). maybe henry 3.0 will be a pet croc? or a pet dragon/lizard. maybe i'm reading too much into it-

i wonder what solmare's interpretation is but at the same time i'm glad they didn't really say anything about the issue & we can just think whatever we want (unless i'm completely sleeping on something- i don't have every card of his and i hardly read chats so that can easily be the case)

tl;dr: if we interpret him according to the Christian Bible - which om! characters were mostly based on - he is supposed to be a crocodile, meaning he only sheds one scale at a time, not an entire layer like a snake would. considering how contradictory the bible is, imo it is completely fine to interpret him as a snake too though (in my copy & translated version it is completely ambiguous so go off ig) thoughts?

sources under the cut <3

i basically read through wikipedia & some other pages which lead me nowhere but i checked the sources to be sure afvgaefv

Job: 41 in the revised version of the bible (gfjhgf crying. what am i doing) , if you read the footnote you can tell Leviathan is suggested be a croc, actually. (my version of the bible doesn't have these footnotes though, i don't know enough about religion to know why it lacks them so don't ask jkhvfkjgf)

Gator Guru, Alligators - Skin Shedding Habits Accessed 30 May 2021

Isaiah 27:1 (you can clearly tell he is a snek here)

Gen. Rabbah 7:4, Midrash Chaseroth V’Yetheroth, Batei Midrashoth, vol 2, p. 225- According to Rashi, Leviathan is in fact a female fish

[smile-files]

i suppose it makes sense to put off model ripping until finals are over. i can do that as part of my comprehensive henry documentation...

speaking of which, i'm wondering how i'll format it...

my henry documentation will have the relevant screenshots of course! though i think it'd make sense to also have a transcription of each screenshot's dialogue. that way i can better parse through everything! and each screenshot would have its context listed... like chapter and location and so on: so for a conversation i'd describe what triggered it, stuff like that.

the benefit of working off of a recorded playthrough is that you can cite things based on timestamps, which is convenient... but none of the playthroughs available on youtube are nearly as thorough as i'd like. in theory i could record my own full 100% playthrough of the game? but that would make it all so much more time-consuming! not only for what goes into making a recorded playthrough itself, but also for requiring me to cross-reference everything between screenshots AND timestamps...

unless i record the playthrough first and then take screenshots from the playthrough? each screenshot labelled with the timestamp it was taken at? then the clarity of the images would be lower... but i don't know how important that is.

if i did do the playthrough-to-screenshot method as described then it would make documentation much clearer: where for each screenshot i list not only the time/location/trigger but also its timestamp in the playthrough. that way a fuller picture of the surrounding context may be achieved! and it would also make for simpler citations.

another benefit of recording a playthrough myself would be having that playthrough for future reference! for if i were only playing it and i missed something screenshot-worthy i can't necessarily go back to get it. while if i recorded the whole thing as a video...!

ah. darn. now it seems like recording my own playthrough is the ideal method for me to use in my henry documentation. where i would:

record my own full 100% playthrough of miracle mask

go through that playthrough and screenshot everything relevant to henry's character, down the full context including the timestamp with every screenshot i take

format those screenshots in a document including their context/timestamps

transcribe the text in each screenshot

that would just be the basic documentation! within that i'm not making any statements about what his character is...

that would be done on a second document, which would cite the screenshots in the first document. for example i could say 'henry still retains his servant mindset' and then cite the moments in-game which suggest that! these statements would be what is directly conveyed by the game. i would consider not only how henry speaks and acts himself but also how others describe him and interact with him.

and then i could make a third document which would cite both other documents (mainly the second), and which would include my more personal interpretations of henry! so things which are bolstered by all of the evidence i've collected, but which aren't necessarily stated by it in any direct or indirect way. things which are at most implied or probable! such as 'henry doesn't think he's deserving of love' and stuff of that ilk...

[a-little-slice-of-fandom]

In response to the Jane ask, I totally agree! Her song, as vague as it might be in the newer versions, is very much about emotional abuse and her realizing/reflecting on it. In the other versions this is arguably even clearer! Besides the list in the first verse, there’s a line in the student run version that always get me, in the second verse after “with out my son your love will disappear”. Usually in the lastest version it’s “I know it isn't fair, but I don't care”, which can be a sign of even tho she knows that he has hurt her at this point, her love will still be there for her son. But the student run it’s something like “you’ll let us fall apart, try to break my heart” which I think is much more powerful in showing more of her self awareness at what would happen to her. Also that opening monologue before about if she was really loved or just checked all the boxes on a list before she could make him angry, she knew that he would be willing to destroy her if she didn’t do as he wanted (Cause Anne wasn’t some death that would never happen again and that only happened cause Jane was there, he was to said to have threaten Jane with the same fate cause of the pilgrimage of grace incident (also well it did happened gain two queens later). Also just a slight unrelated thing, I can sorta understand why people blame Jane for Anne’s death but also not really. It was a whole campaign against Anne, and we only know that Jane was yeah trying to be queen due to influence from her family and others trying make sure she was but I don’t think it’s her fault Henry (and others) decided the best course of action would be to kill Anne. Though I am not a big Tudor researcher, this is only from multiple weeks and hours of searching and learning cause of curiosity and someone could fact check me but that’s what i interpreted the history as. Random rant over) Also the fact (and I’m pretty sure this is true in the newest version), she says “loved” most of the time. The past tense is important there, cause yeah maybe she did truly think she “loved” him. And he may have been the only one she ever “loved” but that cause she probably didn’t get a chance to love someone else (when Henry says it’s you, it’s you after all). This is just speculation though, I can’t assume what a 500 year old historical figure was truly feeling but a character in a show is different and ready for analysis. For that I say that maybe she did “love” him but it easily could have been out of fear or wanting to just deal with the cards dealt to her. But at the end she realizes where she wants her love to be directed towards, and that’s her son and in “Six” her new found family.

And fun fact about her part in “Six” (I kinda learned from something on tumblr but can’t remember who but either way here it is.) it’s 200% about the queens as her family, with her pun at the end being the main signifier of this. “You could perhaps call us the Tudor Von Trapps” is a reference to the Trapp Family Singers, an Austrian singing family (if you see the wiki for them, they are apparently the inspiration for sound of music, Neat!). So from that you would think “oh she’s talking about Henry and her kids with him having a band” but then she says “Just kidding! We’re called the Royalling Stones!”. A Rolling Stones references and they were made by friends forming a band, so that can be associated that the queens are said friends in this case but also part of family that has grown! Also Rolling Stones have a song called heart of stone, seriously this is the most clever joke Jane had during the show and it makes me, a pun/joke lover, very happy to see this be such a character trait that it’s in the damn description for her character for an auditioning sheet (check out Citadle Theather and Six the Musical in google, i think you’ll find it.)

Anyway sorry about this long ramble, it’s just that even though I totally can see how people view Jane as “weaker” in terms of some writing choices made, I still think there’s a lot to talk about with not just her current incarnation but also the other ones as well. I wish some changes werent made to her song, but she is a still strong character about the effects of emotional abuse and maternity. There’s nothing bad about talking about those things, your right that it doesn’t make her any less feminist. Anyway ramble over and I hope you have a lovely day :)

Hello hun!

Please don’t apologise for rambling! I’m always so interested in hearing other opinions on the queens and I love the opportunity to discuss any queen at any time! Frankly, I’m just impressed you got the whole essay into one message! Have they gotten rid of the character limit? Sorry, not relevant to the question.

(Also sorry for how long this took to answer! Uni happened sort of happened and I didn’t want to half ass my response to such a well thought out ask)

I adore the older versions of Heart of Stone, especially the student run version! I completely agree that Seymour feels so much more aware of her place in Henry’s life in the older versions. In the older version she knows she wasn’t Henry’s true love (even though she loved him) and she knows her worth is completely dependent on her ability to give Henry a son. She literally says “nothing lasts forever, I’ll fade away”. That is such a powerful statement and I wish that line was still in the song! I still think these themes are in the new version, but they’re nowhere near as explicit. Plus the character development in the student run feels much more explicit, with Seymour saying “soon I’ll have to go, I’ll never see you grow” instead of “him grow” in the new versions. She’s clearly speaking to Edward in the older version, so the last half of HOS in the old versions (at least in my eyes) is actually directly speaking to Edward and not Henry as many people think. I still think this is true for the new versions, illustrating Seymour’s character development as she breaks away from Henry and rather concentrates on her son, but again I don’t think it’s obvious in the new version. The older version just felt so much more powerful and I think it presented Seymour as much more as a victim than the newer version...which I argue is true! Seymour was as much of a victim as any other character in the show and I think she deserves more sympathy than the show gives her, and for as much as I love the newer versions of six, you can’t deny that Seymour is reduced to a joke for half of the show. The student version is such a genuine and earnest version of Seymour, and I can’t help but love her. It’s definitely a testament to the actresses from the student run that their characters are still on parr with professional versions of the show!

(Im so sorry I don’t feel like I’m adding anything to your analysis, but you’ve really summed up my feelings perfectly! )

Weirdly, I think that the student run and studio run play with the idea of having a “heart of stone” better than the modern version. I love the contrast between the material things that Henry can buy versus the natural world. Material things can fade, but the natural world (and Seymour’s love) transcends that. It’s a really nice use of juxtapostion in that song and I just don’t feel like the newer versions play with those images as much as the older version.

I do sort of get why they changed it (I think Seymour spends upwards of 10 just listing different objects, which is powerful in its own way but I do think audience members could get bored of those verses) but I wished they had still somehow managed to keep the theme that Seymour as explicit. I still think it’s there in the newer version of the song, but I don’t think it’s anywhere near as obvious as the older version. It would make HOS more like AYWD in a way, and that would be brilliant. Six shouldn’t be afraid to tackle different forms of abuse.

I personally can’t comment on the whole Anne Boleyn vs Jane Seymour thing because I just don’t know enough about the situation. However I don’t think any of the wives should be burdened with the blame of what happened to their predecessors. It wasn’t their fault.

Also I’d never thought of the tudor von trapps vs the royalling stones indicating that it was a found family rather than a blood family, but it’s actually such a neat little detail and I think it makes complete sense! I have always maintained that Seymour’s “family” doesn’t have to be related by blood. Found family is just as meanigful and as important as a bloof family, and Seymour finding her place with the other queens and calling them her family rather than Henry is very powerful in my opinion. I just don’t think the “my family’s grown” lime has to be as literal as people take it. Thanks for bringing that line to my attention though!

Seymour isn’t a “weak” character, both in term of the writing and in terms of character development. As much as I love the older versions of Seymour, I still like the new versions and appreciate that Toby and Lucy decided to allow Seymour to be a motherly character and have that be treated as an equally empowering thing as the other queens. Some women want to be mothers and that’s okay!

Anyway thank you so much for this ask my love! I really enjoyed thinking about Seymour (since she’s not a character I talk about a lot). Sorry again for taking so long to respond ❤️❤️❤️

[un-beel-lievable]

Obey Me characters as Billie Eilish songs

Why did I do this. Idk some of them are great and some of them are okay (in terms of how well they fit the characters. Don’t come for me I was bored and this seemed like a good idea ten minutes ago. Also SPOILER WARNING.

Lucifer - “All The Good Girls Go To Hell”

I believe I am required by law to choose this song for him bc she legitimately sings his name in the lyrics lmao 

It’s kinda self explanatory in my book. She sings about the pearly gates being more like a picket fence, meaning they’re more like a prison.

Also the MV for the song is literally an angel falling out of the sky and becoming a demon so

Mammon- “Hostage”

This is a song about someone who wants to keep someone’s attention all for themselves. Sound familiar? They seem desperate to keep the person

I mean this is a more extreme case of that but you can see the yandere potential lmao

Plus she makes a lot of references to gold in the second verse and ya boy loves gold

Leviathan- “When I Was Older”

So this isn’t SUPER relevant to him as a character and I’ll be the first to admit that

BUT there are several lines speaking about water and the sea, something Leviathan (the actual creature and our boy) are connected to

Idk she says best of friends in the lyrics and I couldn’t help but think of all the times Levi’s referenced MC being his Henry a.k.a his best friend

Satan- “Come Out And Play” AND “Bury A Friend”

Okay so he has two bc I was having trouble deciding between soft and scary?

The way that I interpret the song Come Out And Play is someone who is coaxing someone else to come out of their shell and show their emotions which I feel is a big part of Satan’s character

But on the other hand you have Bury A Friend which I could see as Satan’s wrath and him questioning why MC isn’t afraid of him when he is literally SATAN

Asmodeus- “Bitches Broken Hearts”

So this was a bit more challenging (terms of finding a good song) bc Billie isn’t really known for having songs about being a hoe lmao

But this song has this sensual lo-fi sound that I really vibe with

And I kinda see the song from the perspective of Asmodeus who fell in love with someone (MC?) and had his heart broken? I mean you could probably make it vice versa but who knows I’m a moron moving on

Beelzebub- “Ilomilo”

I can’t express how much I love this song and especially how much I love this song for Beel specifically.

Now at face value this song may seem ill-fitting for him but she sings about not wanting to be lonely, and hoping someone she loves will come home and wanting to protect them

Idk it seems nice for him. Plus I think it’s kind of a funny juxtaposition how light and pretty the song sounds when Beel is such a LORGE

Belphegor- “Lovely” AND “Six Feet Under”

Okay so to me the main song of the two that works best is Lovely

Lovely has lines that say “I hope some day I’ll make it out of here” (and I’m connecting that to him being locked up duh) But it also talks about someone who is lonely and who’s heart has become cold

Six feet under isn’t THAT great for him but it’s like SUPER emo and I feel like it would be a good song for Belphie x MC or sumn idk

Lillith- “Listen Before I Go”

Look if you have ever even heard this song one time you should know why I picked it

It’s sung from the perspective of someone who is dying in someone else’s arms like,,, and saying she wants to be taken to the rooftop so she can see the world one last time

Super sad, super good 10/10 this was one of the easiest ones for me to do

Diavolo-”You Should See Me In A Crown”

Okay so i feel like I should preface that the undateables is where the crack jumped out. That is to say, I didn’t have as strong of an argument for why these songs should go with these characters

Anyway this song is a bit more on the obvious side. Diavolo is the prince and will one day become the king of the Devildom sooo check him in that crown u know what I’m sayin

Barbatos- “Goodbye”

Is it a cop out to give him a song that’s this short?? Idk I was having trouble with him, mostly because we don’t know much about him, unfortunately

But I gave this to him bc Goodbye is the last song on the album “When We All Fall Asleep Where Do We Go” and basically (in reverse order) goes back through and references all the songs on the album and idk that made me think time travel??? Who the hell knows at this point 

Solomon- “My Boy”

So I had the same issue with Solomon as Barbatos? But at least I was able to make a couple of connections lyrics-wise? 

She sings about how her boy is being shady and sus lmao that’s pretty much it. Give it a listen and see what you think 

Simeon- “Ocean Eyes”

So AGAIN, not much info on him. But what I DO know about him is that he is an angel with beautiful blue eyes lmao

So obviously she sings about ocean colored eyes but she also sings the line ‘I’ve never fallen from quite this high.’ and idk high up? Fall? Heaven? Just kill me

Luke- “Xanny”

LMAO LET ME EXPLAIN

This is one of her few songs that isn’t about relationships and it’s about condemning drug and alcohol abuse and how people at parties always smoke and drink and that is also 10000% something Luke is against so here ya go leave me alone

MC- “I Love You” AND “No Time To Die” AND “Everything I Wanted”

Okay so I was listening to Billie’s songs and SO many of them were good for MC (and it’s especially hard bc MC is a different character for everyone)

In the case of “I Love You”, the song is about someone who confessed their feelings to the singer and the singer seems to not feel the same way (or at least they wish they weren’t being confessed to in that moment) and I kept getting this vision of one of the brothers (that MC is NOT in love with) confessing. Or it’s because they love more than one brother and they don’t know what to do. That or it’s when they confess and she knows she has to leave the next day. She says “I love you, and I don’t want to” BIG sad

For “No Time To Die” I kept seeing it as MC when she saw herself killed by Belphie. I mean tbh the lyrics are perfect for that specific scenario (’was I stupid to love you? Was I reckless to help?’...’fool me once, fool me twice, are you death or paradise?’) but not really any other which is why I didn’t really want it to be the ONLY song MC had

“Everything I Wanted” has to be the least related of the three but this is my list damn it so here we go. She sings things like “Everybody wants something from me now and I don’t wanna let ‘em down.’ Eh, give it a listen and see if you can hear a connection

(So anyway this was a trainwreck of a post but it is an UNGODLY hour in the A.M. so just roll with me)

[icedteaandoldlace]

So there’s this “101 Reasons to Ship Snowbarry” video that keeps coming up on my YouTube suggestions. Idgaf about Snowbarry, and I’ve already hit the “not interested” button on similar videos before, but since I can’t seem to get away from video suggestions like this, I’m just gonna watch it and liveblog it, and bet that for every entry on the list, I can come up with a corresponding rebuttal for why Barrisco would make an even better couple. (I’m not gonna comment this ON the video ofc, this is just for my own amusement.)

Click the link above if you want to see the stuff I’ll be responding to, but be forewarned, that video is like, way long, so naturally it follows that this post is gonna be, too.

Additional note: If you are a Snowbarry shipper who has stumbled across this post somehow, now would be the time to stop reading, and also to add the “anti Snowbarry” tag to your filters if you wish to avoid running into posts like this in the future, ‘cause I ain’t interested in engaging in shipping wars.

Anyways, let’s go:

1. "How they met." Cisco woke Barry out of a coma by playing/singing a song about bisexuality, 'nuff said. (Also, part of the purpose of that scene was to introduce Caitlin as the serious, “down to business” one, and Cisco as the warmer, more easygoing one who’s trying to make Barry feel more comfortable.)

2. "They're both scientists." What is Cisco, an Instagram influencer?

3. If Caitlin being Barry’s personal doctor gets her romantic points, then the same should go for Cisco being his personal tailor. Actually, he should get more points, because there’s no moratorium on romantic relationships between tailors and their clients.

4. The way Barry and Cisco gaze into each other's eyes for non-medical purposes. This is too easy.

5. Uh. Cisco being the voice in Barry's ear while he's running, and often the first person he calls out to for help solving a problem.

6. They frequently take hold of each other's hands and shoulders.

7. Cisco comforts Barry while Caitlin tends to his wounds.

8 through 12 is literally just stuff about Caitlin being a doctor, and I don't find this stuff relevant enough to rebut because there's nothing inherently romantic about any of it.

13. "They both have fun together." Yes, Cisco also, the fun having, it happens, lots. Even more, actually.

14. Not really sure what to say for this one. Barry and Cisco noticing when each other is sad and then checking on each other (at Cecile’s baby shower and Barry’s bachelor party, respectively, and also on other occasions), comes to mind. That doesn’t have to do with noticing each other’s lips, per se, but I’ve never thought of either of these SB scenes as moments where Barry was staring at Caitlin’s lips, just as moments where he’s noticing her expression/overall mood, which is something he does with Cisco (and vice versa), too.

15. They all have nerdy hobbies, dude, they're nerds.

16. This one for SB is "she makes Barry drunk on purpose", which, y'know, she did because he wanted to be able to get buzzed, which Cisco has succeeded in helping him do, too (and the drink he made was more effective and longer lasting), but the way this is phrased is kind of suggestive, like Caitlin was doing it to lower his inhibitions (which she totally wasn’t), and uuuuhhhh, don't romanticize that maybe???

17. Cisco put all that tech into Barry's suit, including delivery menus from his favorite restaurants + wrote him an instruction manual, and sped up all his favorite shows so he could catch up on what he missed while he was in the speed force.

18. Barry makes Cisco's (and everyone's) hair fly everywhere when he speeds out of a room, too. Like, this is just basic physics, fam, wyd?

19. Barry also uses his powers to help Cisco. And...literally everyone who needs his help, this is basic superhero stuff, wyd?

20. He is impressed with Cisco, frequently.

21. Just having nicknames? He calls him "bud", "dude", etc., and one time he called him "Cis". (Bonus: Iris and Cisco have called Caitlin "Cait", too, so it’s not just a Ronnie and Barry thing.)

22. Cisco can make anything to help Barry. They're literally top-notch genius scientists, I don't even

23. Obviously they think each other makes great company, they're best friends. All of them.

24. They comfort each other. Again, best friends + Team Flash pep talks are a major staple of the show.

25. He needs Cisco, too.

26. They...they care about...my god, it's like you people have never heard of FRIENDS.

27. Honestly, how many times have we heard Barry tell Cisco he believes in him, or heard Cisco gush about what a great hero Barry is?

28. Helping each other conquer their fears. Yep, that's another one that applies to like, everyone on this show.

29. "They both have experienced loss" IT'S A SUPERHERO SHOW! Also, that's just life. Name one main character on this show who hasn't experienced loss. Nash and Wally have both experienced loss, and I have yet to see anyone ship them.

30. "They both can sing really well." Okay now. This one is true for Barry and Cisco, but uh...Caitlin is literally tone deaf. I'm not being mean, Danielle Panabaker knows good and well that she can't sing, and she has talked about Carlos side-eyeing her when she gets going because she's not good at it. THAT'S OKAY! There's nothing wrong with not being able to sing, but--WHY would you claim that she's good at something that she clearly is not? She wasn't on pitch for a single line of Summer Nights, and she straight up changes keys mid-line in the mockingbird song in that other clip, and just...what even is this entry?!

31. Watching over each other, yeah, another basic staple of being friends and superheroes.

32. "He is always standing behind Caitlin" AND LOOK WHO'S STANDING BESIDE HIM!

33. Remember that time fake Jay "died" and Cisco stayed with Caitlin until she fell asleep? Remember when Dante died and Caitlin slept on Cisco's couch to keep him company? Remember all those times Barry or Cisco were rendered unconscious, and the other stayed by their bedside until they woke up?

34. Basically just a continuation of 33. See above.

35. "Maybe 'okay' will be our 'always'." Hmm, what WOULD Barry and Cisco's "always/okay" be? Probably just calling out each other's names tbh, they do that a lot. Or perhaps, "For real?"

36. Is2g. Being only one call or text away is, again, a staple of the show, considering everyone in it is a close-knit found family and knows there's a very good chance that that call or text might be saying, "I'm in mortal danger, please come save my life at once."

37. Funny, I already pointed out once before (in a different post) the fun parallel of how Caitlin will sometimes go running to whoever her love interest is at the moment, or she'll call out his name, while Cisco is at the same moment running to Barry/calling out for Barry.

Side note: did they really think including Barry's proposal song to Iris would give more weight to their why-to-ship-Snowbarry argument?

38. I mean...Barry kind of carries everyone everywhere. You don't really get to see it, but how the heck else do you explain all the times he whooshes people in and out of places? He can't just drag them, otherwise the soles of their shoes would either wear down fast or catch on fire.

39. Okay, no shade to Barry and Caitlin's friendship, and some of these moments are really great, but generally speaking, their hugs do not compare to the ones that either of them has with Cisco. Also, note the group hug scene, conveniently cut off before Cisco joins in, because unlike the Romione + Harry hug in the Prisoner of Azkaban movie, there's no way to interpret it as a third wheel/cockblocking moment, because the moment Cisco declares it a group hug moment, Barry and Caitlin both agree, and you can see it on their faces that they are delighted, and think that Cisco joining in their hug has just made it even BETTER.

40. Henry gladly accepts a hug from Caitlin, immediately after laughing at Cisco's awkward moment and giving him a fatherly reassuring pat on the shoulder. I think it's safe to say he approves of all of Team Flash.

41. Oh look, another thing Barry and Cisco and multiple other characters do.

Good god, I'm not even halfway through this yet. This is like that time I tried to climb Diamond Head.

42. Ah, superhero poses, yes. That thing that...superheroes...do. Like, all of the ones on this show. And in general.

43.  "They begin to resemble each other." They're just white, fam. OH MY GOD, I SOMETIMES TAKE MY SUNGLASSES OFF WITH ONE HAND, TOO! OT3 MUCH????? 😱 Lol what even??

44. How many times throughout this video am I gonna have to repeat that everyone on this show has these moments? Also, speaking in unison with someone because you had prior knowledge of what they were going to say due to yourself or someone else time traveling, is not the same as being in sync with them because you’re close. (He said “Weather Wizard” at the same time as Cisco, too.)

45. Idk what to even say to this one. Like, Iris is obviously the love of Barry's life, and Cisco is obviously his favorite best friend and the person he would be with if he didn’t have Iris.

46. *John Mulaney voice* AND THEN THEY DIDN'T! Seriously, though, both of the people they were trying to get over were perfect for them. I don't have a Barrisco specific rebuttal for this one though.

47. So by this video's logic, that one scene from 4x03 means that Barry, Harry, and Cisco should be a threesome, huh?

48. "I did it because it gave me an excuse to bring him back."

49. .................is this even an argument?

50. They're both good looking people, darling.

51. Wrong, sir. They fight like siblings. Trust me on this one, I have six of them.

52. Trauma response. I'm moving away from Barrisco arguments and just saying the first thing that pops into my head now. But seriously, this is a normal reaction to trauma/loss.

53. *Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh* I'm not even gonna say it this time, you already know.

54. Again, have you people ever had anyone in your life that you cared about, ever? I'm starting to get concerned, honestly. But for the sake of bringing Barrisco back into this, hey, remember that time Barry and Caitlin both got kidnapped on the same night and Cisco was completely beside himself?

55. This is getting out of hand.

56. Pretty sure dating Caitlin didn't even make the list for Barry's reasons to dislike Jay and Julian (also, he liked Ronnie, the guy she loved the most, so...)

57. Judging Barry for being a dumbass + helping an exposed girl out =/= jealousy. Granted, there was some jealousy in that last clip, but not because Iris got the man; it was because Barry was all set to live happily ever after while Caitlin was, y'know, struggling with powers she didn't want and another person living in her head that kept fighting her for control of her body.

58. Refer to season 1 episode 2, wherein Cisco is the person helping Barry from the beginning, and Caitlin asserts that she is on Joe's side when he tells Barry what a stupid and reckless idea trying to be a superhero is.

59 + 60. "Let's bring our boy home." / "Let's go get our girl." Do I need to cite either quote?

61. Again I ask, did a human make this list?

62. Don't make me tap the sign.

63. One word: Elseworlds.

64. If you'll scroll waaaaaaaaaaay up there, I already covered that Barry and Cisco hold hands A LOT.

65. Oooh, I made a meme about this one! Not after watching this video, I just see SBers say this all the time, and it drives me crazy.

I used this in my Snowbarry fandom drama presentation for my squad’s presentation party a while back.

Side note: ~INTERESTING~ how Caitlin being a doctor is ““romantic”” when she’s treating Barry but ““motherly”” when she’s treating Cisco. I can’t even.

66. ......I’m sorry, I’m just not seeing how the dramatic irony of them stating that Killer Frost will never be a problem on Earth-1 is pertinent to shipping them as a couple.

67. Hannibal Bates and Caitlin are perfect for each other? Weird take, but okay. Oh, and there Caitlin is trying to freeze Barry to death. Wasn’t there a point somewhere up there about her never wanting him to get hurt?

Side note: Hey, what’s the name of that guy who saved Barry in this scene?

68. Bruh, that’s just her dynamic with everyone that season.

69. Barry and Iris, Barry and Cisco, Cisco and Caitlin, Cisco and Harry, Caitlin and Killer Frost, Cisco and Killer Frost--just naming some duos that are more iconic than Barry and Caitlin. Again, no shade to their friendship--I really like them as friends!--but the shippers stay making it out to be more than it really is.

I also just have to point out that although Killer Frost was the one who willingly teamed up with Savitar/whom Savitar sought out first, when she comments on their team up and says it’s “Barry and Caitlin together again”, his response is to point out that she’s not Caitlin and he’s not Barry. In contrast, when he takes Cisco against his will and forces him to modify the speed force bazooka, he still refers to Cisco as his best friend.

70. Make up your mind, does Savitar count as Barry in this or not? Because he totally grabbed Caitlin by the throat once.

71. I don’t know how to break this to you, but not enjoying it when someone is in pain is just being normal. (Do I even need to point out Cisco’s empathetic cringing compared to Barry’s looks of mild discomfort, or...?)

At some point this went from being about Barrisco to being about Cisco being the favorite friend to both of them, idk.

72. He. Is. Literally. A. Superhero.

73. Man, what did I JUST say? Also, can we just acknowledge the build up to Crisis on Infinite Earths for a second, wherein Frost very quickly accepts that Barry is supposed to die in order to save everyone else, while Cisco has infinite crises of his own at the idea of having to accept Barry’s death--which, I might add, he never actually does? Neither does Iris, for that matter. They tried to accept it, and they thought they did, but they didn’t really.

74. Oh fuck it, just read 73 again.

75. Okay, what even is this one? Two scenes where they are not present for each other’s “deaths” and thus don’t react to them, meanwhile Cisco is devastated in both of them?

76. Same thing I’ve already said several times before.

77. How many times do I gotta point out that this is a superhero show?

78. Just really trying hard to find enough reasons to make this list 101, huh? (What is Firestorm, chopped liver?)

79. Because violence = chemistry apparently. Wasn’t there another entry about how they can never hurt each other or something?

80. I’m sorry, I can’t hear you over the vibrating hand that shredded Cisco’s heart before either of those scenes happened.

81. It’s like SBers think they’re the only two characters on the entire show.

82. I’m sorry, I can’t hear you over all the other vibrating hands triggering Cisco at least once per season. But sure, Barry and Caitlin are the only two who know suffering.

83. Two words: Flashpoint. Dante. Also, not seeing how this one is romantic.

84. That’s just a Caitlin/Frost thing, fam, it only happened to Barry because he got whammied by Prism, who caused the same effect in everyone else he whammied. (Cisco’s eyes turned purple once when he got hypnotized.)

85. Please. I beg of you. Get friends. Interact with a human person.

Side note: “I trust you” was almost what I put for Barrisco’s “always/okay”.

86. “Don’t call me that. I don’t know you, string bean.” / “I don’t know who you think you are, but around here, people call me Mr. Ramon.” / “The name is Vibe.” (Again, romance where?)

87. Kinda like how Mirror Iris and Mirror Kamilla have slightly dressier tastes than Real Iris and Real Kamilla.

88. ....Anyways, Vibe........

89. The first time because Cisco saved him, the second time because she froze him just enough to fool Grodd, not enough to actually kill him. (Again I say, what is Firestorm?)

90. So romance. Very love. Much relationship.

91. ANYWAYS, CISCO. (And uh, hello, IRIS???? Joe? Harry?)

92. See 88.

93. This one might be a fun ship parallel if Caitlin had actually been involved in Barry’s brain zapping, but instead it’s just like, “here’s two random scenes that are kinda similar in completely insignificant ways”, like the evil clothes thing a few entries back.

94. Another entry that just demonstrates that their one-on-one moments together, while good, just don’t compare to either of their one-on-one moments with Cisco. I can’t be the only person who sees this.

95 + 96 + 97. I can’t muster up enough interest in any of these shows to watch them all the way through. Is this supposed to impress me?

98 + 99 + 100. The only point this proves is that they have multiple ship names. (I thought their evil ship name was Savifrost?)

101. Mm, sorry, sweetheart, Westallen, Barrisco, and Snowstorm all have them beat in this category.

This post really got away from me, at this point idk what I’m even doing, but I went on too long to stop now.

Oh, shit, there’s a bonus round.

Honestly, I fail to see how a lot of these supposedly “match”? But as for the ones that do, that’s just your basic TV aesthetics, I forget the official name for it. They’re matchy-matchy with Cisco in some of those shots, too, because TV matchy color psychology whatever. It’s a whole thing, every TV show and movie does it.

If anyone actually followed along this far, congratulations on your attention span, my brain could never. Idk how to end this post because it strayed so far from my original intent and basically just turned into a Snowbarry Fandom Doesn’t Make Sense Presentation 2.0

You know, I like to try not to generalize and stuff, and I’d like to think that maybe not all SBers are racist and that some people genuinely just like the ship because they think that makes sense or something, but then I look at their reasons for shipping it, and it’s just the dang blandest thing I ever did see, and they have to reach so far when they try to explain why they think they’re the best “couple” on the show and just??? I am the queen of shipping friends who never get together romantically, but Barry and Caitlin just don’t got it, son. Tbh part of the show’s appeal to me is the fact that there’s no threat of Caitlin ever getting with either of her male bffs in that way, because Cisco is like her brother, and getting with Barry just wouldn’t make sense. It just befuddles me to no end that they are such a wildly popular ship and not a rare pair, because the way their relationship is in canon is just exactly the way it should be.

That’s it, I guess. I’ve already invested this much time in this, so I might as well post it.

Also, please don’t anybody try to start anything in the comments section of this video, this fandom has enough drama as it is.

[mittensmorgul]

8.13, Everybody Hates Hitler.

So, we've finally reached the point in the season where the new plot arc has finally been established, the current mental state of each of the characters has been divulged, and yet there hasn't seemed to be a true Big Bad emerge yet...

Yes, we have Crowley hassling Kevin and the Winchesters over the Demon Tablet, *we* know that additionally there is an Angel Tablet out there lurking in the hazy future (but the Winchesters do not yet), and we have Naomi using Cas like a puppet to do murder before snatching him back off the playing field in 8.10. But who, really, is the Big Bad here? To this point, it SEEMS like a good idea to use the knowledge Kevin is prying out of the demon tablet to learn how to slam the gates of Hell, but honestly... WHAT GOOD HAS EVER COME FROM MESSING WITH THE NATURAL ORDER?!

(honestly if it were me faced with the tablets, I would've ground them into sand, mixed them into batches of concrete all over the world, and scattered them so thinly they'd never be found no matter how many prophets or angels or demons go hunting for them)

But let's backburner that for when it will become relevant again (like, in the next episode, but I just wanted that laid out for context here). Let's look at the pointed context we get for things made out of clay and given unimaginable power by WORDS they contain.

The Golem.

AARON When I was – when I was bar mitzvahed, my – my grandfather gave me this little old book. It was in Hebrew. It was like an owner's manual for a Golem. DEAN Okay. Great. Get that, then. AARON I – I can't, exactly. When I went to high school, I sort of... drifted. I started getting off the academic track, and, uh, I kind of, um... I kind of smoked it. GOLEM The boy smoked the pages. AARON They were these thin, vellum-y pages. I mean, it was perfect for rolling. Look, they were driving instructions for a clay man. Okay? It was nonsense. Right? I mean… I... Okay. All right. Look, I'm sorry, okay? Why can't you just tell me what I don't know?! GOLEM [slamming his hands onto the table and leaning over it] It's not my place to guide the rabbi, to teach the teacher! It's not my place! Yifalchunbee!

He smoked the "driving instructions for a clay man." And now he's got a clay man he's sort of intuitively "reading" and "operating," but no real idea what he's doing with it. Sam and Dean are not comforted by this fact, considering the obvious potential danger the golem potentially poses without the understanding and knowledge to implement his power, you know? Without that knowledge, Aaron's basically flying by the seat of his pants, hoping this magically powered hunk of clay is A Good Thing and not A Dangerous Thing...

Sorta like the Demon Tablet, right? Just a magical bit of clay, powered by word, with no instruction manual and just assumptions and hopes they're interpreting it correctly. There's no warning labels, no explanations, just the Word.

AARON So, that's your plan – taking out my Golem? SAM It's not a plan. DEAN We would just feel a lot better if we knew how. That's all. AARON What makes you think you have any right to make that decision? DEAN Believe me, if we need the right, we will take it. AARON Look, he may be a pain in the ass, but he's my responsibility. SAM Look, the Golem was built to go to war. You're not trained for that. How are you gonna take that on? AARON I don't know.

Lots of unanswered questions. Unanswered BIG questions. Questions that one should really know the answers to before deciding to "take that right" to make unilateral decisions over things, you know? Like they've taken the right to decide to shut the gates of Hell, because on the surface (pffft) it sounds like a really good thing to do. What could go wrong with locking away demons forever, right? Demons have been fucking over Winchesters as long as they've been alive, and what a perfect way to get a lifetime worth of revenge and ensure the safety of the world, right?

More on that as the rest of the season unfolds, but we need to talk about the other half of this episode. The Bunker. The legacy that now belongs to Sam and Dean, and handed to them in the form of a Key, described as not only a secure building warded against every evil, but also a storehouse of every bit of lore encompassing thousands of years. Safety, home, comfort, knowledge, strength... it's everything they could've wished for, you know? Hewn from earth and filled with words... possibly too many words to ever read and understand them all.

But this is a revelation of a legacy for them to have discovered. Sam is fascinated by what makes it work. He can't figure out how they have water pressure or electricity, and yet they do... He wants to understand this building for what it is, while Dean takes immediately to just experiencing it. He literally makes himself at home, exploring it for its resources and claiming them as his own (from wearing the dead guy robe and slippers to casually playing with a sword on display). Sam needs to understand the place before he can allow himself to feel comfortable there, but Dean just... feels comfortable there. (which we'll also see first-hand in the next episode only to have it all stood on its head... so keep this in mind).

So we have Dean just... casually accepting things and saying them out loud without shame:

Dean: The, uh, water pressure in the Letters' shower room is marvelous.

Dean: That's weird. I thought I was being followed earlier. Turned out to be a gay thing. Sam: What? Dean: Nothing. You need a hand?

Dean: Sammy, I think we found the Batcave.

But Sam sees it in a different way, and doesn't even understand that they're still effectively seeing the same thing, but from different perspectives:

SAM Yeah. I still can't figure out how we even have water... or electricity. [He walks to the shelves to get another book.] DEAN Yep, well, I am putting that under the "ain't broke" column.

SAM Look at this. Ham radio, telegraph, switchboard. This was their nerve center.

Sam: Dean, look, I think we might have something here – something that could help us, help humanity. Henry certainly thought so. I mean, you know damn well we could use a break. What if we finally got one? Are you gonna take off the dead-guy robe?

And by the end of the episode, they've both begun to settle in, despite their different approaches to what that means:

DEAN What're you doing? DEAN opens the refrigerator as SAM sits down. SAM Ordering – I'm making a, uh, card entry for our, uh, copies from the Thule's red ledger for our collection.

Yeah, Dean's already installed a small fridge for drinks in the library, already putting his own stamp on the place and making it his own, but in his different way, Sam is also doing the same by putting his mark on the place with an official entry card for the filing system. (Yeah, Dean puts the beer back and instead pours them each some whiskey from a fancy bottle into some fancy glasses, but while Sam studiously works at the table, Dean reclines with his feet up on the table... their two different approaches in one nice image).

That can't possibly last...

The final bit of the whole “legacy” theme-- that the bunker is now a concrete (pffft) part of her family history through the Winchester side-- is one of the first mentions of Mary in a long time:

AARON: Take a seat. So... your grandfather was into all this supernatural stuff, too? DEAN Yeah, grandparents, mom, dad, truckload of cousins – the whole family was lousy for it, but we... [he looks at the GOLEM, which is still pacing] never had a Golem. SAM : Right. Yeah. We, um, we grew up in it, but you... didn't?

as I go to post this, I remember what the final song playing as the episode ends, “Sunny side of the street,” and recalled a tweet I saw this morning regarding the horrific heat wave we’re experiencing rn: Who the HELL wants to walk on the sunny side of the street?! Stay in the shade...

[tisthewoman]

Why You Shouldn't Let An English Teacher See Movies: a reaction post of IT:Chapter 2

Okay, so I finally saw IT Chapter 2, and I have some thoughts. Some of these thoughts might rub people the wrong way, which is okay, but be warned that I'm not going to hold back here.

As a whole, let me preface by saying that I loved this movie. I will go to see it 3 more times, and I will enjoy every moment. However, objectively… this is not a film that I can recommend to people as a “great film” artistically speaking. Is it fun and Good™? Yes. Did I enjoy it immensely? Yes. Were there some very odd and disruptive writing/direction choices? Yeah. This isn’t a masterpiece, as fantastic as I personally felt it was, and honestly I do not think it topped Chapter 1 in terms of flow, total presentation, or scriptwriting.

I’m going to break down my thoughts by category:

1. Story elements

2. Visuals & Horror

3. Tone

Starting with Story Elements:

I am incredibly torn on this. I LOVED aspects of this film, and was wildly confused by others. As a whole, I think the film began strong. 

The re-introductions to the characters were fantastic, though taking the “historian” thing from Mike in Chapter 1 definitely made Chapter 2 weak in regards to his characterization. He’s a hard character to get right, but it honestly feels a little like they didn’t try, and just used him to progress the story. I could continue, but that is a whole separate Mike Essay. Bev, Ben, Richie, and Eddie were all fantastic. Eddie in particular was taken in a slightly more aggressive angle than traditional for his character, but it worked very well with the way he was established in Chapter 1, thanks to Jack’s interpretation. Bill was a little bit weaker in some ways, but still at his core Bill Denbrough. I unapologetically LOVE adult Stan, and only regret that due to the story, we don’t get to experience him as much as he deserves in the film.

The return to Derry was great, and I still think that the group dynamics are what make this story shine. 90% of what I loved so much in Chapter 1 was the group dynamics, and they are here in SPADES. The group makes sense together, and the cast did a great job, though Eddie’s constant repetition of the word “fuck” seemed a little unnecessary after the second time in the restaurant scene. However, one thing I think the miniseries did better is establish them as “the lucky seven” - they’re not just the Losers Club; they’re held together by fate, and there’s definitely some supernatural elements to that which are not present in the films, weakening their group connection. This is shown most strongly in their moments of conflict in Chapter 2, especially when they want to leave, because their draw to each other doesn’t seem to be present, at least not in the same capacity. It seems weird to feel let down by this considering my next point, but it is what it is.

Some may disagree here, but… I really dislike the decision to include the ritual of Chud in the movie. I disliked it in the book as well, as I think that it unnecessarily complicates things and turns this horror story into a surreal sci-fi story in a way that doesn’t always mesh well. King does both sci-fi and horror well, but I’ve always felt the crossover in IT was off somehow. Also, the lack of connection with this to the first film makes the ritual of Chud seem even weirder in Chapter 2. Mike’s characterization with this gets… odd… and its inclusion is very confusing. I actually said “what the hell are they doing” in theaters when Mike introduces this with Bill. That’s how weird it was for me. My biggest problem was that it makes Chapter 2 a sharp departure from Chapter 1, and failing to achieve the cohesion that the miniseries had is a huge downer for me, considering that the IT reboot is an improvement to the miniseries in so many other ways.

In comparison to the book and miniseries, I think that it was a bad choice to leave out Audra, as it was good closure for the Billverly plotline. Bill and Bev even kiss in Chapter 2 - and then it is promptly forgotten. I’m not necessarily looking for conflict, but Audra was a huge motivator for Bill, and it was much less significant to have his driving force be this random kid that reminds him of Georgie. I get it, but Audra helps show how Bill has grown more strongly and pushes him forward after the final battle. I also wanted a cinematic parallel between Audra and Bev in the sewers and was really disappointed that I didn't get it. I have similar feelings about Tom - yes, Bev obviously leaves him for Ben, but Tom had a huge impact on Bev and her growth. Leaving him out weakens her personal story.

I’m not going to say much about Henry, but the scene where he pops out of the sewers is FANTASTIC. I absolutely did not expect to get that scene (I figured we’d just pop in on him in the hospital), but was glad we did. However, this lost its impact the longer we went on; he was relevant for all of one (1) stabbing of one (1) Edward Kaspbrak, and then died without even putting Mike in the hospital like he was supposed to. A waste of his character.

There are other positives. The connection Adrian and Richie’s stories are great, and I think Richie’s moments of reveal are very well handled. I just wish the Adrian/Eddie parallels had been highlighted as well. Richie and Eddie are fantastic together, and Bev and Richie are also sweet as hell. Besties for the resties, man. In general, I think Richie’s relationship with the Losers is the strongest writing in terms of group dynamics. Putting aside his feelings for Eddie - which do a fantastic job of fleshing him out and showing how multifaceted his character is - he is the one Loser who has strong ties to every other character. Bev’s relationships with Mike and Eddie are weak, Ben’s most relevant relationship is to Beverly, Bill’s most relevant relationship is Mike - you see where I’m going with this. Only Richie’s writing showed the importance of all his group relationships, though some were stronger than others.

Almost every individual scene with the Losers and Pennywise are very enjoyable. The moments where their personal motivations and fears shine are truly the best in the film. While there were some design issues that disappointed me in terms of IT terrorizing them, their stories are great - the apartment scene with Beverly is still poignant, and Bill’s revelation about the day of Georgie’s death made me a little emotional. I’ve already mentioned this in general terms, but the arcade scene with Richie is fantastic.

As a whole, there is a lot of love here, and so much to enjoy. The script writers and the director worked hard on this film, and they tried to do a lot with it - just maybe too much, which caused problems with flow and tone as a whole.

Visuals & Horror

I love horror - I could go on all day about how it’s the best genre. As such, I have a lot of feelings about the horror elements in this film. 

I already mentioned how the ritual of Chud/Sci-Fi elements weaken the horror - in truth, the horror elements were already weak. As a result, sci-fi elements distract from what already has flaws. There are two major categories for this discussion: subtlety and design.

In terms of subtlety, a majority of Chapter 2 was basically hitting you over the head with a Pennywise-shaped hammer. There were jumpscares everywhere, and they were rarely impactful ones. How many times did we get a “Pennywise chomps down on somebody” moment? I was totally engrossed in Adrian’s scene at the beginning, but when Pennywise just takes a bite out of him and it ends, I was honestly disappointed. I do realize this is book canon, but there is something about the presentation in the book - the precise moving of Adrian’s arm, the bite, the smile, the cracking of his ribs - that is dulled in the movie for a lack of a better term. There is just something about this death that fails to hit home. Maybe it’s because Pennywise is more or less out in the open, or maybe because in the book, the bullies see It, too, making it a surreal moment that no one believed except those who were there.

As a whole, the movie has plenty of gore but little suspense. I think I had more interest the less I knew about how exactly people died. Eventually you get sick of the chomping - the unknown is more frightening than a monster with a predictable attack pattern. The missing kids. Betty Ripsom’s shoe and lack of explanation. Patrick’s fade to black. These things made Chapter 1 unsettling, but scenes like Victoria’s death had no other elements other than being bitten to death by Penywise, and that was predictable. 

For an example of what could have been in terms of subtlety, I can honestly say that I was more creeped out by “Mrs. Kersh” slinking around in the background of Beverly’s old apartment than I was by the old woman monster. For what it's worth, the way these monsters move is INCREDIBLE, especially so the more humanoid they are. I love the body language and movements. The earliest example is the headless boy in Chapter 1; the jerking limbs really emphasize their inhumanity, and it still works in this film (Mrs. Kersh at the end of the hall, Betty Ripsom’s legs, etc). This, with the use of humans and their subtle shift to the unnatural in the films, was much stronger than the larger monsters in Chapter 2. 

Another strength is the background details that you might miss. The librarian staring at Ben as he reads about the Ironworks explosion in Chapter 1 is a great example of this, as is Mrs. Kersh peeking her head out of the kitchen in Chapter 2. I would have rather had more small scares like this, rather than the reliance on jumpscares. The pomeranian monster behind the “Not Scary At All” door is essentially just that, and I was WILDLY unimpressed by it.

Returning to the focus of the film, Pennywise the clown is a great villain, but a lot of Its appeal is that It shifts into whatever scares you most. In the first film, this is done well - the painting lady, the leper, the headless boy, and even the way it shifts in the battle at the end. The strength in these forms is that you never know what to expect - and neither do the Losers. Each new nightmare looks and behaves differently. The flute dropping from the painting lady’s hands to announce her presence, the dropped eggs in the library scene… everything about the leper. Even the miniseries did this variety well (the werewolf, the shower scene with Eddie, Mrs. Kersh, etc)

Yet, in part 2, we get… two extra monsters. Which is fair - we already have plenty of material - but they both have the same style of warped features and aesthetic. I think creepy naked old Mrs. Kersh would have been a more disturbing visual than old lady monster turned out to be. Sometimes less is more. Clowns are creepy because they have almost-not-quite-human features… the same can be said of effective monsters (look at the leper, for example, or the painting lady). 

Pennywise in general and Its overreliance on Its clown persona weakens the effect. Eventually, Its presence becomes “oh, there’s the clown again,” especially considering that Its attack pattern has become so predictable. Is It going to drag me into the darkness? Is It going to manipulate me into hurting my friends? Is It going to do some other scary thing to me? No, he’s going to take a bite out of me. Not awesome, but certainly not the Pennywise of the novel or even of the miniseries, whose horror came from the fact that no one knew what happened when you disappeared - or when parts of you reappeared.

There were too many instances where the horror was all about jumpscares and theatrics. Pennywise is all about theatrics, I know, but It went from eldritch horror to dramatic murder clown in this film. In the book, Pennywise is extra as hell, so I wouldn’t be angry if that was the angle taken for the films - however, that is not what was established in Chapter 1, and isn’t actually what is achieved in Chapter 2. If we are going for a more serious, darker tone for Pennywise, I would prefer the eldritch horror we saw more strongly in Chapter 1.

Tone

This is the hardest category to explain well, because a lot of this is my personal impression of the film, but I’ll do my best. As a whole, the movie does not flow well, especially connected to Chapter 1, and this is largely because of tone. Some scenes shift too abruptly or push too hard, and I feel as though the writers were trying to capture the same charm and attitude that Chapter 1 achieved with the kids, but struggled because they aren’t kids anymore. The balance between gritty horror and charm is harder with adults, but this is something the miniseries excelled at compared to Chapter 2. In the miniseries, you never feel like you’re watching a new film when it switches to the present day with the adults. In IT Chapter 2, though the movie and story are meant to be a continuation, it feels more distant, like a sequel that doesn’t quite achieve the same mood.

I’ve said that the group dynamics of the Losers really shines in these films - however, it’s also a major problem in Chapter 2, because there are several times where the writers sacrificed the integrity and tone of a scene to fit in some banter. I love the banter, okay. I’m all about it. The banter in the IT movies is my favorite banter that I’ve seen in a fictional friend group, and yes, I’m including Stranger Things and classics like The Breakfast Club or the Goonies. However, when it’s ruining an otherwise impactful scene, it feels wasteful and disruptive. 

A good example is the scene with Richie and Eddie at the doors in the caves. This scene is fantastic - it’s funny without being a gag, and it showcases the brilliance of RichieandEddie. However - and this is a big however - every other Loser’s individual scene is dramatic and dark - tonally appropriate. Richie and Eddie, however, have their moment melding humor with some jumpscares, and though the scene is great on paper, it makes no damn sense compared to the tone of the rest of the damn sequence. There is no logical room for comedic relief here, and it was jarring, no matter how much I enjoyed the scene itself. Tonally, Richie’s one-liners in Chapter 1 made more sense, and the script of Chapter 1 did a much better job ensuring that those tiny breaks in tension do not disrupt the scene or atmosphere. I cannot say that about certain elements in Chapter 2.

The Losers work very well together, but they also have a tendency to get chaotic enough to break the atmosphere. In the book, there is a lot of quiet horror amongst the Losers Club that is disrupted in Chapter 2 by the multiple scenes where they just scream over each other during crucial moments (such as the scene in Jade of the Orient). The quiet fear and understanding amongst the Lucky Seven that made them such a dynamic group of protagonists just doesn't exist here. Every quiet moment is a moment for arguing or freaking out here, and it got tiring, especially when we went right back to individual reflection and exploration after. I use the term “quiet” here quite a bit, but I’m not sure how else to express the atmosphere I’m talking about. Hopefully the point gets across.

This may just be personal preference - I really enjoy subtle horror, as I’ve said. The moments where the Losers watch and take in the terror as it unfolds are important moments and are lacking in Chapter 2. I can’t empathize with the screaming and freaking out, but the dawning horror and realization of what’s happening puts me right in their shoes. Beverly’s slow realization when she’s staring at the picture of “Mrs. Kersh” and her “father” is a moment like this, to put it in context. 

Even more so than the Losers’ attitudes is the lack of the “dawning horror” vibe in the film at large. It is not meant to be an action film, and yet Chapter 2 is constantly go-going. The action is in places more akin to a slasher than the slower supernatural horror this story is meant to be. Chapter 1, with its slow reveals and strengthening group dynamics, hit the intended mood better, and seems further separated from Chapter 2 as a result.

Chapter 1 did a great job with balance - it knew when it was appropriate for the funnies, and how to shift that into the horror elements seamlessly. It also did a great job throwing in Richie’s one liners without ruining the balance of the scene, but Chapter 2 had several instances where it took those quick Richie moments and turns the focus entirely on him, breaking up scenes in a jarring way. An even more disruptive example is the “Richie said it best last time” bit before they entered Neibolt. The entire scene shut down for Richie’s moment, and it ruined the suspense of what could have been a really nice parallel to Chapter 1. We didn’t need the tension broken in many of these instances, and it was difficult to go back and forth. The focus on Richie is because of the positive fan response to his character, which is well deserved in my opinion. However, this could have been done better. 

Tonally, Pennywise’s script also came on too strong. The Pennywise we know and love is a lurker, manipulating humans and taking other forms rather than doing all the dirty work directly. Chapter 2 has moments of this, but more often has Pennywise as an aggressively taunting antagonist. It becomes loud and exaggerated. Part of this can be attributed to rising tension as the Losers return to finish It off, but Its dialogue is hammier than I expected. It’s become almost petty - and not to needle at the Losers, but more because It’s bitter and childish. I don’t know if it’s too much to use the term “eldritch horror” again, but I don’t know how else to describe what we were set up for with Chapter 1 and let down on in Chapter 2.

As a whole, I felt like the film was stitched together in places. After Chapter 1, I felt that I had just had an experience, but after Chapter 2, I actually looked at my best friend and said “I liked it, but I’m not sure what just happened.”

Let it be clear that I love Chapter 2, and will happily rewatch it many times in the future, but I do think that compared to Chapter 1, it is a far weaker film overall. You can watch them together for a similar experience to the miniseries, but it will be less cohesive and will feel like it fell apart a bit the longer it went on. I don’t fault the writers for this entirely, as the second half of this story is a daunting undertaking, but I think removing the sci-fi elements with the ritual of Chud and tightening down the horror aspects/tone would have made this a stronger continuation of Chapter 1. 

[behind-the-screen-of-bangtan]

Words to make you think

This post is part of the TSU. It belongs to the third part: Socio-political reflection.

There will be several parts in this post:

Citations in the videos

In the lyrics

Concepts based on philosophy/psychology

BTS’ discography through a Jungian perspective

Citations in the videos

We’ll start with what’s mainly a list of the quotes then we’ll interpret their purpose. Some citations may not feel that philosophical but as they can be interpreted the same way, they were included here nonetheless.

BTS introduced us to philosophy, and then to psychology, quite progressively. As it started in the background, it’s hard to be sure whether I caught them all or not but the earliest occurrence I have is in “Boy In Luv” Japanese version MV:

“One original thought is worth a thousand mindless quotings, Diogenes”

Despite the signature, it seems this quote is not from Diogenes himself but was rather attributed to him by William Safire in a New York Times article from the 7 April 1996 and titled “ON LANGUAGE; Worth a Thousand Words” -  the article itself is explaining the real origin of some expressions. It was later used by Banksy for one of his works - and it’s probably this one that inspired Big Hit’s artistic directors.

It’s funny to start a post about philosophical references with a fake quote. Let’s say it’s a reminder to be careful with what you say and to not blindly believe what you read.

The sentence was written on the blackboard. You can also find a verse from the Bible’s proverbs not too far away:

“Those who guard their lips preserve their lives, but those who speak rashly will come to ruin.”

Now let’s be honest, it’s impossible to read these in the MV (I found them thanks to a making-of video). As for their link with “Boy In Luv” (lyrics of the Japanese version here), it seems hard to establish. “Boy In Luv” tells the story of a boy struggling to confess his love for a girl and waiting eagerly for an answer. An overinterpretation of the quotes could be that the boy needs to find how to confess by himself (in opposition to the “Dad how did you confess your love to mom?” from the lyrics) and that a gesture would mean more than a verbal confession, or that he must choose his words wisely to not lose his chance with the girl.

The next ones are more known in the fandom since they appeared during The Most Beautiful Moment in Life. It’s words related to the concept of the series, namely the brevity of life, the death of innocence and childhood, and the cruelty of the world:

“Paradise is where I am” - Voltaire in “Le Mondain”

“Dedicated to all the boys who have lived in this painful world”

“Too fast to live too young to die”

“Without soul goal and **** We are nothin but a mannequin”

"You must live on"

“YOLO” / “you only live once”

“Youth is never coming back”

“Pain past is pleasure”

There’s also a series of Latin citations that appeared in “RUN” Japanese version:

“Carpe Diem”           (Seize the day) “Dum Spiro Spero”   (While I breath I hope) “Memento mori”        (Remember that you have to die) “Pro Memoria”          (For memory) “res, non verba”        (Facts instead of words) “Viva”                        (Alive/Living or Long live…!)

Some of those expressions made their comeback during the WINGS series, along with new ones:

“Man muss noch Chaos in sich haben, um einen tanzenden Stern gebären zu können” (One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star.)

A citation from Nietzsche’s Thus Spoke Zarathustra. And:

“You oldest fears are the worst ones”

“Expiring for love is beautiful but stupid”

“Fear is the most elegant weapon Your hands are never messy Threatning bodily is rude” (original typo)

Different sentences from Jenny Holzer.

These citations are once again fitting with the concepts for WINGS and The Wings Tour, that is to say, temptation and the fear of becoming an adult.

For details about where all those can be found in BTS’ works and their origins, I’ll let you refer to the glossary. Most of them don’t have a real author and some may even have been created by the artistic direction team.

Agust D’s album cover had citations over Suga’s face:

“You need people like me. You need people like me so you can point your fuckin’ fingers and say. ‘That’s the bad guy’.” said by Tony Montana (Robert de Niro), the main character in Brian de Palma’s movie Scarface.

“Life is a daily oscillation between revolt and submission” by Henri Frederic Amiel, a Swiss philosopher.

“Life is ecstasy”

“Every man dies, but not every man lives.” pronounced by William Wallace (Mel Gibson) in the movie Braveheart.

Again they go with the theme of the mixtape.

We even got a surprise during the 2017/2018 ceremonies. A citation from Gilles Deleuze could be seen in the background during the “Mic Drop” performance at the 2018 Seoul Music Awards. There was also a lobster during the Golden Disc that connects with it. I’ll let you refer to the glossary for details but here’s the quote, from A Thousand Plateaus:

“Nor can the status of social formations be analyzed by throwing some signifier into the base, or vice versa, or a bit of phallus or castration into political economy, or a bit of economics or politics into psychoanalysis. There is a third problem. It is difficult to elucidate the system of the strata without seeming to introduce a kind of cosmic or even spiritual evolution from one to the other, as if they were arranged in stages and ascended degrees of perfection.”

I won’t pretend I understand everything but I still feel it’s the less pertinent quote until now. It’s an analysis of the world on a binary base which doesn’t really connect with the boys’ success that’s celebrated in “Mic Drop”. 

The last quotes up to this day are in Persona’s comeback trailer. They’re from Carl Jung, the psychologist who inspired the series:

I am not what happened to me, I am what I choose to become.

The dream is the small hidden door in the deepest and most intimate sanctum of the soul, which opens up to that primeval cosmic night that was the soul long before there was the conscious ego.

As expected, they relate to the lyrics of “Intro: Persona” that wonder about one’s own identity and the dream theme linked to the album.

Even though they are mostly related to the concept of the series, we can wonder whether these words are intended to be seen by fans or just serve as a Lorem Ipsum to fill the background. Indeed, you’ll need to pause the videos to read most of them and sometimes even more effort will be needed - for example, Holzer’s quotes are written backward when they appear behind Jungkook. 

(This also applies to most of the literature references, they’re relevant for the concept but quite hard to catch.)

It’s like background noise. But a background noise that you can take the time to listen to in order to understand the whole concept even better. There’s one thing however that seems recurrent between those quotes and it’s their negativity. Of course, most of BTS’ concepts are dark so it’s fitting but they also usually have their bit of hope: youth is painful but it’s the most beautiful moment in life. Or then again, we can overinterpret and consider that while the world is dark, it’s the boys themselves who bring hopefulness.

In the lyrics

Obviously, all of BTS’ lyrics are quite philosophical, be it when they question their feelings, the meaning of life or the way society works. And I’m not even talking about the puns.

One notable line though is in RM’s “God Rap” when he explicitly talks about Buddhism, as explained by Muish here:

Foolish believers, you can become a god as well

It references the fact anyone reaching enlightenment can become a godly being.

The next ones appear in the Love Yourself series. First, we have “Magic Shop” (Muish’s rambling), a song dedicated to ARMY and written by Jungkook. The concept of the magic shop is detailed below. Here, it’s like an IRL version. The fear they exchanged is the hate they received before and the positive attitude they gained is ARMY. And they wish us the same:

You gave me the best of me So you’ll give you the best of you

Since the magic shop is a mental exercise, you’ll find it in your heart.

There’s also something in “134340” and “Answer: Love Myself”. Their lyrics can be connected to what Jung defined as a complex: a constellation of elements that when they’re activated can influence our will (more details can be found here). Those elements are usually past trauma or similar events.

So when they say in “Answer: Love Myself”:

Under your mask When even the scars left from my mistakes Are all my constellations

The constellations that emerged from mistakes can be seen as a complex.

As for “134340″ (lyrics), the whole song can be interpreted as a rejected complex. “134340″ is initially about Pluto not being considered as a planet anymore and thus feeling lonely. It’s similar to what happens to complexes. Normally they’re in the unconscious but once they’re activated, they can reach the consciousness, like the sun in the lyrics:

At one time, belonging to the sun’s world

But once the ego has dealt with the complex, it is sent back into the unconscious, where it just float around aimlessly like Pluto:

All I’m doing is circling around (Beyond the fog, I watch over the you who is still smiling Without you and without meaning, the reality of my irregular orbit) All I’m doing is spinning around aimlessly (Pluto in the darkness with a number that’s difficult for you to remember But even then, I’d continue to circle around your surroundings, damn)

To relate to the concept of Tear, let’s add the fact that complexes have personalities. They’re usually weaker than the personality of the ego (which is our personality; in the case they’re as strong, we observe multiple personalities disorders).

The whole concept of Tear is faking yourself to the point it’s unbearably painful. It’s like the boy rejected his own personality to the point it became a complex instead of his own ego and now it’s exiled in his subconscious. Luckily, he will accept it in Love Yourself 結 Answer. Concerning the reason why such a thing would happen, we have to remember the ego is directly under the influence of the persona (so how we behave in society). So to fit in the world, the ego changed itself.

Concepts based on philosophy/psychology

Until now, it’s safe to assume all the quotes in the videos were decisions from the artistic team only. It all changed with the Love Yourself series.

Not only its main reference is The Art of Loving by Erich Fromm, but the whole series is constructed as a reflection based on the 起承轉結 structure and it also references the magic shop technique. Philosophy is central in this concept and not only the artistic directors but also Bang PD and the boys are participating in developing it.

The Art of Loving explains love is like an art and you must work on it to develop it. Love has several forms, including self-love, but true love is rare nowadays. People tend to compensate for the lack of love with consumerism.

The Chinese structure has an introduction, two parts considering the subject from two different points of view and a conclusion.

The magic shop refers to a psychodramatic scene performed during therapy by the patients and the therapist. In the magic shop, it’s possible to exchange whatever you want against a certain price. However, the real strength of this technique is in the bargain preceding the exchange. The shopkeeper (either the therapist or another patient) will question the reasons motivating the exchange and through their answers, the patient often realizes their initial wish was hiding another desire they hadn’t identified. You can refer to this paper by Professor Earl Koile for examples.

In Love Yourself, Euphoria shows that the introduction is actually The Most Beautiful Moment in Life. It’s the initial situation. As we saw in The universal coming-of-age story, the boys struggled with accepting the outside world and still had to find how to be happy.

The two development parts of the reasoning are the bargain inside the magic shop - note that all the what-if considered during this bargain also exist in the BU thanks to the time travel.

The exchange the boys want to make is revealed in ”FAKE LOVE” first teaser:

'Magic Shop' is a psychodramatic technique that exchanges fear for a positive attitude.

We also see in the video that what they understand by fear is their traumatic past and that “a positive attitude” is being with a girl (several interpretations can be made as to what the girls represent).

The bargain begins in Her and the boys explain how being with a girl will bring them happiness because it’s destiny (see notably “Serendipity”’s and “DNA”’s lyrics).

The teaser revealed during the 2017 KBS Gayo Daechukje can be considered as the shopkeeper’ answer:

“The magical time is coming. Come to the Magic Shop. Now, take off your mask and open your eyes.”

The boys are asked to take off the mask “destiny” had put on them, the one that makes them smile because they’re with a girl.

We see the result in Tear. They’ve been denaturing themselves to the point they literally ask “who are you?” in “FAKE LOVE”. Being with a girl actually doesn’t bring them happiness and they’re just forcing themselves to fit the situation “because it’s destiny”.

The conclusion happens when the boys realize what they really want is not “a positive attitude” as decided by some abstract authority but to be happy by themselves and for themselves. Thus “Answer: Love Myself”. This whole reflection proves the ideas developed in The Art of Loving: the boys had to do a lot of mental work to reach true love, they all had different relationships with the girls and with themselves, and they had to work on it themselves and not just wait for someone else to bring them joy.

As the 起承轉結 structure is for a written work and the magic shop technique is a purely mental exercise, we can assume no one was really hurt in the process - no girls were involved and the boys didn’t denature themselves. Again this idea is made possible in the BU through time travel - but since it’s the BU, there are still people who are hurt, sadly.

However, the VCRs shown during the performances at the 2018 year-end ceremonies imply there was someone who helped them and that they want to help back:

“Fake Love Take off the mask and face yourself I can be your hero”

(2018 MMA)

“I didn't know what power/love is but you taught me how to use power/love”

(2018 MAMA in Japan)

“You gave me power. You gave me love So now I'm a hero So now I'm a boy with love I'll show you the map of the soul I'll show you the dream”

(2018 MAMA in Hong-Kong)

It’s hard to tell who is that “you”. It can be the girl from the Love Yourself reflection but it can also be ARMY since we’re the subject of the next album, Map of the Soul Persona. Something that should be considered here too is that these VCRs were shown with songs from Tear (”FAKE LOVE”, “Airplane Pt.2″, and “Anpanman”) so rather than a teaser for Persona, they could be a development of Tear’s concept - except the last one of course. The masks and the doll concept were also most likely a complement to Tear - obviously the doll concept references the E version of Answer, but it’s a repackage including songs from Tear.

The series following Love Yourself is this time based on psychology, and more specifically on Jung’s works through references to Dr. Murray Stein’s Jung’s Map of the Soul.

At the moment it’s hard to know where they’re heading with this one as we only have one album. However, based on the graffitis in Persona’s Comeback trailer, we can assume the Map of the Soul series will be a trilogy made of Persona, Shadow, and Ego. These three parts of the psyche are tightly connected. The ego is the conscious and controllable part of our mind, the persona is the mask we wear to adapt to society and be able to live as a community, and the shadow is all the traits that were rejected from the persona. I detailed more ideas from the book in this summary.

If we go with such a trilogy, it means we won’t go deep in the psyche (to the self) and rather explore the surface (consciousness and personal unconscious).

Persona is the first part of this series. RM explained in his Vlive about the album that BTS’ persona is ARMY - and we do often represent them where we are. Most songs are about happiness and love: thanks to their persona, the boys could fit in the world and enjoy it at best. We can also mention “소우주” (Mikrokosmos) and its lyrics about everyone being a galaxy made of stars - the galaxy is also one of the metaphors used to represent the map of the soul.

BTS’ discography through a Jungian perspective

Before we start this part, please keep in mind it is an interpretation following the different releases so I’ll obviously make sure it makes sense. This, however, doesn’t imply Big Hit planned it, I’m just adapting to what we have. Also, had the last series been about another psychologist’s works, I would’ve made this interpretation based on this psychologist’s theories.

According to Jung, the psyche is something that grows along with the body. At first, there’s an undefined mass that’s both the self and the rest of the world. Progressively, through experiences and trauma, an ego develops - accompanied by a persona and a shadow. These allow the individual to differentiate themselves from the outside world. However, it creates a conflict within the being between the different parts that all have different goals: the persona wants to fit in the world, the ego wants to be an independent individual. An ultimate stage would thus be for all those part to become one again while remaining differentiated. But most people don’t reach it. Jung conceived this development as 5 different stages of consciousness. As the details get quite complicated I’ll let you refer to the book if you want to know more.

In BTS’s discography, we can link the development of the ego with the school trilogy. Through encountering the three main themes of life (dream, happiness, and love) the boys gain morals: you don’t need a dream, don’t be late to be happy, love is complicated. As for their social behavior, it is at first shaped by society (the teacher in “N.O”, the director and the other teacher in BTS Begins): they’re told to obey authority, to aim for a stable job and to create a family.

In the first stage, the consciousness tries to connect with the outside world to begin its existence. And indeed, the boys obey at first...

Before quickly revolting in the second stage, as they realize they’re different from the outside world

On the third stage, the perception of the world changes, the individual focuses more on concepts than objects. Which fits quite well with the YOLO and oniric philosophy behind The Most Beautiful Moment in Life.

Since WINGS is based on Demian and Demian is based on Jung’s works, there’s obviously a lot of connections. WINGS references the whole book but especially the end, with the idea of the bird flying to the god Abraxas. This image is most likely the ego getting inflated in the fourth stage and identifying with god. It’s also a stage of realism where we realize everything is a social construct.

In BTS’ concept, the bird is the young being accepting adulthood. However, rather than identifying with gods, it seems the boys rather related to angels/Icarus and thus to the whole notion of falling from the sky/sinning/succumbing to temptation. An interesting take we find in the WINGS Concept Book is that the fall of the angels and their rebellion against God is a step to grow up - possibly to grow into god themselves then, considering the stage of consciousness.

In the Love Yourself series, a lot of people have associated the girls with the anima of the boys. In Jung’s works, the anima is like your other half, the one who completes you and who exists in your subconscious. This interpretation has flaws but it’s still possible. It also fits with the fifth stage since it’s the one where all the different parts of the psyche reunite. Considering the concept of the series, we can interpret the different parts reuniting as the being finding inner peace and thus being able to love themselves.

Hypothetically, the 5 stages of consciousness stop here but Jung considered supplementary ones. It’s just that only a very small number of people reach it so it can’t be studied well.

But it doesn’t look like Map of the Soul will head here. As I said above, it seems they will rather explore the surface. Interestingly, the surface of the psyche is central in the first stages of consciousness. And the first stages of consciousness have been explored in the school trilogy. And Map of the Soul just happens to revisit the themes of the school trilogy.

And just like that, we connected the whole Reflection of Youth to Jungian ideas~

Now just for fun, here’s another one:

At first, the world population is just a mass

Out of it emerges the BTS self

Through a trauma of hate, they develop their ARMY ego

ARMY grows a persona of being a kind and generous fandom and a shadow made of hate, memes, and overreactions

Just like the map of the soul can be compared to a galaxy, BTS and ARMY reunite as one beautiful galaxy in concerts💜

Conclusion

Philosophy, psychology, proverbs, and just any idea intended to lead to a reflection have been in BTS works for a while now. It remains unsure if we’re supposed to know about them or not as they’re really not highlighted - The Art of Loving and Jung’s Map of the Soul being the exceptions. They remain pertinent to the concept they’re linked to though.

In such a context, it’s clear that only the fans will know about it. So just like hidden tracks on albums, it could be that those quotes are only intended for ARMY because only ARMY can understand them in the context of BTS’ works and their whole message.

And indeed, see how half-fans and journalists hurried to label the magic shop technique as a reference to Into the Magic Shop. Rather than the whole reflection connected to the 起承轉結 writing structure and explaining how they reached self-love, people just went with “OMG a child discovering the mysteries of the world!!”. Which is a theme Bangtan already explored and not with one but with eight references (see here) so I promise you, they really don’t need that trope anymore.

In the same idea, while Jung’s Map of the Soul and The Art of Loving are relatively easy to read, only a very dedicated fan will go through A Thousand Plateaus (before you ask, I didn’t, I only read the chapter of the quote).

To complete my thought on those quotes being background noise, they’re indeed something that’s hard to pick but also something that needs to be decoded.

As for the two books referenced that have been made very public and very explicit since you can buy them on Big Hit’s shop, as I said, first they’re easier to understand and second, BTS has gained a lot more casual fans who won’t necessarily take the time to search for all those details. So there’s a possibility they made it easier to find them so everyone could join in the fun. Lastly, BTS are more invested in those concepts and since their part of the works is mainly the lyrics and not at all the videos, it’s only logical for the ideas to be presented differently.