upsideoutinsidedown

[upsideoutinsidedown]

s3 was the worst season because it did not include a byers brothers heart to heart

[upsideoutinsidedown]

A few points. First off, Will does get through to Lucas in that same episode of season three. The moment he stops, takes off the outfit and leaves, telling them basically if they’re going to be this way, he doesn’t want to spend time with them; that was the “call out.” Just because Mike followed after and he and Will had a further discussion about it does not negate the fact that Lucas was also involved. Secondly, while I agree jealousy was involved, to negate Will’s very real grievances to simple jealousy is oversimplifying things. Will was jealous, yes, but he was also ignored and his interests belittled by his friends. This is especially egregious if you consider his attempt to return to DND is likely coming from a place of him attempting to reclaim the childhood innocence that was cruelly ripped away from him and was instead told that rather than reclaiming that, he should just “grow up.” I feel "emotional support" is not the phrasing to use for the heart because their job isn’t to play the therapist friend by putting aside their own issues and talking through emotions. It’s more a willingness to display emotional vulnerability that allows the needed emotional conversation and reflections to come about. And while it’s true that Will has little one on one time with other members of the party, he is shown to display and reflect that emotional vulnerability with more people than just Mike and can be inferred that he is like that in the unseen moments when he’s one on one with other members of the party. He’s displayed that with Mike, Jonathan, Joyce, El, and, as previously mentioned, Lucas. In fact, a lot of people who dislike Will often do not appreciate this aspect of his character. “He’s constantly crying” and “too emotional.”

Mike, on the other hand, had never been as good at handling the emotional side of things. I’m not saying this is a bad thing, he just has a more “stiff upper lip” approach to it. He is more likely to deflect. He doesn’t like being put in situations where he is emotionally vulnerable. Which is fair! Many people don’t, especially middle schoolers who haven’t yet figured themselves out, and as we can see in season two, he gets punished when acting out. It’s only natural he learned to be more restrained.

And when he is confronted with an emotional situation, he often fails first time to address what needs to be addressed. His conflict in season one with Lucas, for one. Was he objectively correct that they needed El to even hope of saving Will? Yes, but he was also dismissive of Lucas’ very real concerns and it was only after Dustin talked him through it that he bothered trying to understand him. But it’s not just that moment either. His handling of his dislike for Max in season two, his handling of his break up with El in season three, and again in season four. His conflict with Hopper, and even his initial conflict with Will (who ultimately seems to be the exception). None of these make him a bad person or character. But it makes it hard for me to attribute him to the heart trope. Does he display certain qualities of the trope? Obviously, as does anyone who has any care for the people around them.

Just because Mike doesn’t fit the role of the heart in trope talk doesn’t mean that he is an uncaring asshole, unimportant to the party members, or keeping the group together. Often the heart is described as the “glue that keeps the party together”, but that’s not literal. No one member of the party is more important than the other’s, there is no one character that if they weren’t present would spell the end of the party. If you’re using that as your definition of the heart, than I would argue no one is, because the party cares about each individual member equally. Ultimately, what spells Will out as the one befitting the heart trope over the other characters is not his importance to individual characters, but rather his embracing of his emotional side. Dustin, Lucas and Mike, even El and Max if we include them, are much more guarded with their emotions. They care, deeply in fact, but they are more subdued in their display of said affection. This is not saying they care less, or are cared for less, just they don’t show it as often or as intently.

Finally, my point with the above comment was not to say “Will is the heart not Mike”, but rather to acknowledge people are using different criteria for what they believe encompasses the heart and assigning that label accordingly. That it is pointless to argue about the use of a label when the label means different things to different people. If we can’t all agree on what encompasses “the heart”, rather than use the term, describe what you believe it means instead.

[upsideoutinsidedown]

So, “Mike is the heart” is canon based on the description Will gave to the role of the “heart” and Mike indeed does fit that. As for the “heart” trope however, I believe Will fits that aspect more, and I feel like this is where wires are getting crossed in the “who is the heart” argument. Because someone asked “who likes orange more” and one half is arguing that oranges are Mikes favourite fruit how could you think Will likes them more and the other half is arguing that orange is Will’s favourite colour, why would you associate that with Mike?

Both sides are right, because both sides are using different definitions of what the “heart” is. The “heart” trope is not the leader (yes, there are overlaps where the leader trope character could also play the heart trope character, but the two tropes are separate). Will describes the “heart” as the one you drives the party, inspires them and guides them. These are not aspects associated with the heart trope but rather the leader trope. The heart trope is the often the peacekeeper of a group, and the one “responsible” for the group’s emotional well being. Their “job” is to keep the group together, help make others recognize that their interpersonal relationships are more important than a personal grievance or obsession. They are there to help the other members of the group stay true to who they are, leading by example in this case, and will be the one to call members out when they are compromising who they are to fit an agenda (whether this be something innocuous like fitting in, or something more extreme like getting their revenge). Heart characters are usually sweet, sensitive and introverted. They are also the one, unfortunately, who often get shafted in long running media, often due to executive meddling as a “heart” character can be seen as boring and not as attractive character wise, for their character thrives off of their interactions with others, rather than stand on their own.

So the question “who is the heart” is misleading. Will is the heart when it comes to trope talk (complete with having misfortune brought upon him to get the party involved), but Mike is the heart when it comes to the canonical definition. Both answers are right.

[upsideoutinsidedown]

Honestly, even if they knew he had a girlfriend and it was El, I don’t think they would know she was adopted by the Byers. Everyone’s trying to keep her on the downlow, they’re not going to make a show of her joining the family (especially since the Byers are absolutely the family anyone involved with the lab would be most familiar with and be keeping track of).

Following that logic, I doubt they would allow Mike to go to California to spend a week with a girlfriend they don’t really know who’s family they’ve never met. His best friend since kindergarten though? Whose family they all know very well? Sure, I can see that.

Point is, Ted and Karen thought he was off to see Will, alone. Whether they knew of El’s existence doesn’t matter, they would have no reason to know of her adoption and relation to the Byers.

im once again asking ppl to consider why they think karen and ted know about el and give me enough proof and evidence that they have any idea who she is when we never see them interact whatsoever the entire show or even ask about her by name JDKSKDKSLlike i get it but i also don’t get it at all if you actually sit down and really think about it. it makes absolutely no sense for them to know she exists or that mike has a girlfriend at all that for some reason lives in california with the byers? like im begging you guys to rethink this

[upsideoutinsidedown]

Will and the Hivemind and His Role in Season Five

In season two, upon Will's possession, it is established that Will has joined the hivemind that is the Upside Down, but I've always theorized that Will had joined the hivemind prior to his possession and continues to be a part of it even after its exorcism.

When did Will join the hivemind?

While I would not be too surprised if it turns out to have happened earlier, I believe Will joined the hivemind in the last episode of season one, which would make it either the 12th or 13th of November, 1983. I can see it happening earlier, but definitely no later than that, simply because of how I believe he joined the hive.

Namely, he died.

Whether the UD was always a hivemind or became one after One/Vecna/Henry joined is inconclusive, but Dr. Brenner mentions how One "absorbs" his victims when he kills. The victim's abilities, their memories, everything that makes them them, he takes. Similar to a hivemind, but with none of the victims having enough agency to remain as separate entities. Vecna's "absorption" is its own hivemind, but Vecna is so much stronger no one is able to keep their individuality when they join and instead get overridden and become just another part of Vecna.

Will died at least once in season one. When Hopper and Joyce found him in the library, his heart had stopped, and he wasn't breathing. He was resuscitated, so one could argue that because he didn't remain dead, he avoided the absorption, but I disagree because that would go against what is implied to have happened with Max in season four.

Max, by the end of the fourth season, has died and been resuscitated, much like Will in season one, but rather than regaining consciousness, it is implied that Max isn't in her body anymore. Like all of Vecna's other victims, she has been "absorbed," and that is why El can't find her. If we go with that assumption, it doesn't matter that Max didn't stay dead. Just the act of dying by itself was enough, and if it was enough for Max, it was likely enough for Will too.

Another reason I believe Will had joined the hivemind prior to his possession is his "flashbacks." He is able to see into the Upside Down and see the MF before his possession. This could be seen as a weaker form of his "now memories," as he calls them, once he gets possessed. The connection is weaker, possibly because he's on the other side of the gate, or alternatively, for the same reason he is able to keep his individuality despite being a part of the hive. The MF possessing him, in this case, could be seen less as a means of reaching out to this side of the gate because, in the second season, it is content to spread silently (it only retaliates after it's been attacked) and instead as a means of "fixing" a faulty part in the hive. Will is like a squeaky door, and the Mind Flayer possessing him directly is an attempt to oil it and return it to optimal function.

But why is it different for Will? Why is he able to retain his sense of self when literally everyone else loses themselves? It could be simply that Will had powers before being taken, and those powers are what allowed him to remain separate. There is, after all, clearly something special about Will, but I'm not entirely sure that is the case. Will has powers, but did he have them before he joined the hive? Or did he gain them after having joined a hive filled with the memories and abilities of super-powered individuals like El? (Reminder that Will could have died earlier on in the first season, and we simply haven't been made aware of it. Will's time in the UD has been conspicuously vague). And even if it were the case of him having powers, why is he different from the other numbered children Vecna killed? Given the theme of Stranger Things is about accepting and appreciating the differences that make an individual who they are and that Will is one of the only characters repeatedly shown to reject tempering who he is to please other people, friends and family included, it could simply be that.

Now where could the story go with this idea? If Will is a part of the hivemind (and has been for a while), what could that mean? Personally, I see Will as a Trojan Horse. He was incorporated into the hivemind and, as such, has access to it, but Vecna is unable to control him through it. Will could poison the hivemind from the inside out. If he is still a part of it, he would absolutely be instrumental in helping find Max and separate her from said hive, and if he learns he can do it once, I don't see him not trying again. And again. Even if the other victims don't have bodies to return to, he could remove the components that make up the hive one at a time, and if much of Vecna's strength comes from the memories and abilities of others he has absorbed, what happens when his batteries start running out?

[upsideoutinsidedown]

for the ask game: “stay” :D

Have a whole five hundred words because I felt like it. It was something I started on for Will's birthday

You’re not yet seven when you first think Oh. This is how I’ll die.

Water surges against you and you don’t know how to swim. You were waiting for your father and brother, having been told explicitly to stay away from the raging river. You didn’t listen, got too close and fell in. You’re drowning in a river you don’t recognize and you’re certain this is how you’ll die.

(You don’t, of course. Your father spots you, and in a rare show of selflessness, he jumps into the river after you. The current has kept you stuck between two rocks and that’s what saves you, what allows your father to reach you. He pulls you out, hands strong as he holds you against him. You feel loved and safe in his arms then. It’s the last time you do.)

It’s not the only time you have that thought though. You have it a thousand times when you are twelve. First, when you realize something was after you. Then, for every second you spend in an alternate dimension. You think it as you’re strapped to a library wall, vine shoved down your throat.

(You’re not wrong in that case. You do die, heart stopped, breath failing. But your mom finds you, crosses into this other dimension after you and a man breaks the ribs caging your heart to force it to start again. You die, but you survive.)

A year later, you think it again, trapped inside your own conscience as you watch something else control you. C-L-O-S-E-G-A-T-E, you manage to tap out, fingers tapping against the chair your body is tied to. It’s the only way to stop the monster that’s controlling you, but you know the consequences. You know it would mean killing you. You’re prepared.

(Again, you survive. Your mother and brother are hell-bent on saving you, and they strap you to a bed and cook you in a makeshift oven, and when that’s not enough, Nancy Wheeler stabs you with a fire poker just as your insides are also lit aflame. The monster lets you go, just in time for El to close the gate and kill anything it claimed.)

You think it many times later. Hiding in a mall from a towering abomination. Pressed up against a wall as a shoot-out happens in your home. Standing back in that alternate dimension, feeling everything aim for you. You think it as you kill the mastermind and you feel your own heart stutter as his slows.

(You don’t. Your heart beats on after his stops, your sister’s arms wrapped around you as you both laugh in relief. It’s over, she says as she all but collapses against you, spent from months of constant fighting. It’s finally over.)

It’s years later, and the thought hasn’t crossed your mind since, but you’re in the safety of your home, staring at the calendar counting down the days until your twenty-first birthday and you realize, you hadn’t planned on living this long.

It wasn’t any active thought. No consideration of ending it, just... You’ve been thinking you’re going to die since you were six. You didn’t think you would make it this long. You still don’t, you acknowledge, as you cross off another day. It’s tomorrow, and you’re not thinking about how you’re going to celebrate.

[upsideoutinsidedown]

Fanfiction Work-In-Progress Guessing Game

Send me a word, if it’s in my wip document I’ll answer your ask with the sentence that it appears in

[upsideoutinsidedown]

I feel like I missed something because I keep seeing posts about byler kissing and “why is this even controversial, why are you against this????” But I haven’t seen any takes opposing that? Was there a post/multiple posts that have since been deleted and I just missed them? Are we talking about things said on a different site? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In case it matters, my take on it is they deserve a nice, messy, passionate kiss. Heck, if they provide a hint of arousal (as in, the hitched breathing, blown eyes, maybe even needing to take a step back) I think that’s fine too if done respectfully. Will is fifteen. He’s the same age, or a year younger, than Nancy was in that scene with Steve in season one. (It says her birthday is “sometime in November” so whether or not she turned sixteen yet is unsure). And if there is a time skip and it happens afterwards, they would most likely be older than Nancy should they do a fade to black. This is not wrong. It wasn’t wrong when Nancy did it and it wouldn’t be wrong if Byler did it. Most teens have sexual thoughts, they’re figuring themselves out and what they want.

Not me though. I can’t relate but that’s because I’m ace.

[upsideoutinsidedown]

What if Will decides to rebuild Castle Byers when he's back in Hawkins, but when he goes to do so he finds it already done? Everything that wasn't ruined by the rain is back in its proper place and even the photo he ripped up is sitting beside his cot, taped together and placed in a protective picture frame. Beside it is a note with four different messages scribbled on it:

I don't know what these idiots did to piss you off, but I'll definitely help you get even whenever you come back. Hopefully it's soon because Mike's a pain in the ass when you're not around. -- Max

I know you said you didn't want to hear it, but I really am sorry for being a jerk. I'm looking forward to a new, epic Will Byers campaign when you get back. I'll even dress up this time. I promise. -- Lucas

Most of your comics were ruined in the rain, so we all chipped in to get you new ones. There's not a lot yet, but it's a work in progress. Hope to see you soon. The party needs its cleric. -- Dustin

I was supposed to add whatever and then mail this to you, but I don't know. I thought if I kept it here, that'd somehow mean you'd have no choice but to come back to Hawkins. It doesn't make much sense, but nothing does lately. Just know that I'm really sorry about everything. I'm sorry if I made you feel like I didn't care about you anymore. And I taped together the photo that was ripped up and framed it to keep it safe. You're my best friend, Will, and it's just not the same here without you. -- Love, Mike

[upsideoutinsidedown]

Will: “hey, you wanna see my latest work in progress?”

Mike, excitedly: “of course!”

Will: *hands him a blank canvas*

Mike: :’)

[upsideoutinsidedown]

listen, I- I cant help but think every time i see will and eddie interact in fics, that will would not have liked eddie like

at all

Eddie? is a dick.

and like maybe this is me just being insane, but i think will's love of Dnd comes from an actual love and appreciation for character and story and a love of his friends and his community he found playing dnd. It gave him an outlet, it let him express himself, it let him be brave and when you see him trying so hard to come back to that in season 3, you see he uses it as a way to express what he's going through. But most importantly, Will plays dnd because he loves his friends.

eddie is so rigid with his dnd obsession. He uses it as a way to control things, to (honesty) control people. He uses it to build himself a throne. A LITERAL THRONE SITS AT THE HEAD OF THE HELLFIRE TABLE. The party always played at a square table, they all looked at each other, all equal, all on the same playing field. But eddie, he's different. Even at lunch you see him sit at the head of the table. He gets up and walks across them, he shouts, he draws attention to them, invites the tormenting almost, and i don't think will would have liked the way Eddie was constantly bringing attention to himself and, in turn, hellfire as a whole. Eddie uses dnd to antagonize, to start shit, as a marker of his "fuck it" attitude

Will would not have felt safe in hellfire. Eddie's "forced conformity is killing the kids" monologue is such bullshit. Hellfire would have suffocated will. Not because i think will couldn't stand up for himself or hold his own against Eddie, but Dustin and Mike are so enamored with Eddie, they fall in line and worship the guy, so much so that they are willing to ditch Lucas and his game! Will never would have stood for that. Will would have been at Lucas's game. No DnD party is worth it to him if its not with his party

"But, what if you wanna join another party?"

"Not possible"

Are we all just, collectively forgetting this? Like are we just blacking out here? Now yes, this is very byler, but its not just about Mike. Its about Lucas and Dustin too. Its about El, and now Max. Its about his people.

Eddie actively tore apart the party under the guise of being "dedicated to dnd" but the only thing eddie is dedicated to is himself and serving his best interest. At least he was in hellfire.

and yeah, idk, i feel like this is an unpopular opinion, but these are just my thoughts. feel free to share yours.

[upsideoutinsidedown]

Look, I’m not saying the duffers intended to put the idea in my head, but I found it interesting that Max is given an exact time before her resuscitation (one minute). They added that little bit of info for everyone to know, but they stayed conveniently mum on Will’s 👀

Do you ever think about how, when Hopper and Joyce found Will in the Upside Down, he wasn’t breathing and his heart wasn’t beating? And it wasn’t like that happened after they extracted him, but he was already dead when they found him, so they have no idea how long he’d been dead for before he was resuscitated. You assume it wasn’t that long because he seems fine, as in, not brain dead, but it’s not stated that that’s the case.

Do you ever think about how Will probably knows this? Do you think he ever questions whether he actually was rescued, or if a piece of the Upside Down that thinks it’s Will possessed his body? Don’t know where I’m going with this. I was just imagining Max and Will bonding over trauma after she awakens and Max makes a comment about how unlike Will she died to which Will would reply he did too, and unlike her, he had no one there with him to time how long he was dead for.

[upsideoutinsidedown]

Do you ever think about how, when Hopper and Joyce found Will in the Upside Down, he wasn’t breathing and his heart wasn’t beating? And it wasn’t like that happened after they extracted him, but he was already dead when they found him, so they have no idea how long he’d been dead for before he was resuscitated. You assume it wasn’t that long because he seems fine, as in, not brain dead, but it’s not stated that that’s the case.

Do you ever think about how Will probably knows this? Do you think he ever questions whether he actually was rescued, or if a piece of the Upside Down that thinks it’s Will possessed his body? Don’t know where I’m going with this. I was just imagining Max and Will bonding over trauma after she awakens and Max makes a comment about how unlike Will she died to which Will would reply he did too, and unlike her, he had no one there with him to time how long he was dead for.

[upsideoutinsidedown]

I was really hoping to post my dnd byler fic yesterday but I haven’t actually touched it to revise because GUESS WHO GOT FUCKING COVID????? Now I spend most my days in a fugue followed by nights of fevers and misery ;-;