amostcuriousmythicist

[amostcuriousmythicist]

I think they would make a wonderful friend group. They bond over how they ruin people’s lives together 😊

ovid does have bangers ngl "Ah me, it’s not safe to praise your love to a friend: if he believes your praise, he’ll steal her himself. But Patroclus never disgraced Achilles’s bed: and how modest Phaedra was with Pirithous. Pylades loved Hermione, just as Phoebus Pallas," -ovid art of love ULTIMATE FRIENDGOALS also phaedra and pirithous being friends is wild them and theseus got to be the worst friend group ever 😭

[amostcuriousmythicist]

No words…

Just…no words

Emily Hauser wrote a entire essay about Stephen Fry's books not representing mythology or woman or historically correctly Also, apparently, in her Atalanta book, she has Meleager assault her, thinking she's a man. at least if this review is correct

so Atalanta dresses up like a man to get on the Argo, and Jason is evil and Meleager is evil man I dunno like, I'm not even against changing a story like the Argonautica but I wouldn't go around critising stephan fry after, feels like throwing glass houses at stones

[amostcuriousmythicist]

Minos: I believe that the children of Athens are our future…unless we stop them now!

[amostcuriousmythicist]

i know Theseus isn't really like evil or even assholeish cuz lets be honest in like most of his appearances in plays, he is incredibly empathetic and kind but damn I fucking love asshole theseus like hes so good as a menece lmao like yeah I like him abandoning ariadne cuz fuck it let bro wig out after killing the minitaur.

Yeah, he hates his son cuz he's a vegetarian. I love it. i don't see him as evil I see him as someone who can lock in when the time is needed, and then lock out.

yall forgetting he had to deal with a bunch of insane serial killers when he was a kid of course he's a bit unhinged after fighting the minotaur.

[amostcuriousmythicist]

Some of yall be hating on certain characters without any real knowledge of them or without having touched an actual mythological source...so this is for my overhated king, Theseus, dispelling the most common complaints about him. "He abandoned Ariadne-" In literally all but like, 2-3 sources (Metamorphoses, Argonautica, among the other Theseus stories listed by Plutarch), he was forced to leave her on Naxos by Dionysus. The OVERWHELMING majority of them have him have no choice and i'm tired of Dionysus glazers trying to make him out to be the heroic good guy in this situation. Also, I don't care what y'all say, Theseus loved Ariadne. If he didn't, he could've left her ass on Crete, she wasn't demanding to marry him in exchange for her help with the Labyrinth, like Medea did with Jason (my other overhated king, he's next).

"He was so dumb for being ok with kidnapping Persephone-" Wrong again!

He was notably not ok with it! He was oathbound, so it wasn't like he could exactly say no to Pirithous, but he knew how bad of an idea it was. Say what you want about him kidnapping Helen, but people also overestimate how young she was. Like, the Dioscuri were old enough to command armies, and Helen is supposed to be as old as they are. Along with multiple vase paintings of Theseus and Helen where she is explicitly depicted as an adult:

(There are more, but these are just some examples.) oh OH and this one. "He killed his son-" Buddy. He literally thought this son had RAPED HIS WIFE who had hanged herself. Would you, in that situation, stop to think rationally and clearly through the evidence?? Be so fr. And also, Artemis didn't bother to come down and tell him the truth until after Hippolytus was already dead?? Like yeah, wonderful timing there. Theseus' life fucking sucked. It's almost like the poets who wrote about him were tragedians who wanted him to suffer! (/s) Keeping count, he's lost both his parents in tragic accidents that were "his fault", lost THREE wives to murder and kidnapping, all of which he is blamed for, and a son, killed in his blind rage. You can also add Oedipus to the addendum, if you believe Sophocles - fell in love with this cursed old blind guy, got clowned on for it by Fate, and he was taken away just like all his other love interests. (I will expand on my Oedipus x Theseus propaganda in other posts, I promise, but they're in love in Oedipus at Colonus I swear) So can we collectively just give this man a fucking break?

[amostcuriousmythicist]

Oooo this is a fun topic (a headache too but I digress)

So OP is correct for the most part, but to go more in depth, the source that gives us the most tangible placing of the Argonauts within Theseus’s career comes in Statius’s Thebaid

In it he makes a quick cameo where he and a bunch of other Argonauts were landing on Lemmos and started to impregnate all the Lemmian women

From how it states that Theseus most recent accomplishment was taking the Marathonian bull, which happened almost right after he made it to Athens, that means he has not yet gone to slay the Minotaur

So Theseus is still pretty young, he was around 16 when he first began his journey to Athens so I imagine he’s not that much older here

Hope that helps 👍

Exactly how old is Theseus supposed to be in the versions of the Argonautica where he’s there?

I believe generally in his late teens to early twenties.

[amostcuriousmythicist]

I honestly have a hard time making out what she’s trying to say either…because in the last paragraph it sounds like she’s saying that Danae agrees with her son in staying away from Polydectes, but then says she “wants something to do with polydectes”

...I have no words...

[amostcuriousmythicist]

It is said in the fifth book that it was Jason and not Polydeuces who fought against Amycus and the place they fought witnesses this by its name, "Spear of Jason"

Photius, Bibliotheca excerpts. 190.35

Tbh, I can’t tell which one of these versions I would prefer.

On the one hand, it’d be nice to see Jason actually accomplish something on his own, without needing help from Heracles or his wife. But on the other hand, the journey to Colchis helps give each Argonaut a moment to shine and contribute to the journey. Case in point, Pollux defeating Amycus

[amostcuriousmythicist]

I’d recommend this article here as it makes a pretty convincing case that whilst Spartan women had more privileges compared to other city states, in other ways, they arguably had it even worse, especially when it came to marriage:

There’s a word for ppl obsessed with Sparta called “Laconophilia” with nazis AND Zionists wanting to be like Sparta’s militaristic society. Which makes it more pathetic and embarrassing when ppl try to say Sparta was somehow more progressive than Athens just bc wealthy women had slightly more rights than in other cities lol

Most of Sparta’s population were helots, therefore most women in Sparta were slaves, whoever says they respect women more is either ignorant or lying to you.

[amostcuriousmythicist]

Showing off my favorite panels from Jordan Holts Webcomic Theseus, because it is criminally underrated

(Slight spoilers)

Their version of how Aegeus killed Androgeus:

Minos falling in love with a pet monkey:

Theseus being Theseus:

Aethra getting a letter from her son:

Zeus being a badger:

(The guy to the right of him is Ares btb)

Finally…Theseus and Ariadne being kind of cute:

[amostcuriousmythicist]

I’m aware of that. My reblog was meant to be a joke though I guess I wasn’t clear enough, so my bad

[amostcuriousmythicist]

There is a correct answer btw

[amostcuriousmythicist]

Jason: alright. So I need your guys advice. How do I tell Medea that I don’t like-like her I just like her?

Herakles: You could tell her the truth?

Jason: Hmmm I see what you mean……Theseus! Any ideas?

Theseus: well, my relationship with my ex Ariadne ended after I ghosted her. But my ex wife Hippolyta divorced after she caught me cheating with Phaedra…so um….I completely forgot what point I was trying to make 😐

Jason: Okay, not entirely sure now why I even brought you on here.

Jason: Peleus, what do you got?

Peleus: well…you’ll have to get really good at wrestling but-

Jason: just forget I asked 😑

[amostcuriousmythicist]

Here’s some ideas:

Atalanta once tried to join the wrestling team, was rejected, but got to join after beating up Peleus

Peleus and Thetis break up and get back together about every week

Heracles, Theseus, and Jason once got a project assigned together. They all shared credit even though Heracles was the only one who did any of the work

Perseus is Athena’s teacher’s pet

Apollo teaches all the extracurricular activities like Music and art

Ariadne once dated Theseus as a way to rebel against her dad Minos. They broke up after Theseus ghosted her. Something to do with “commitment issues”

Ariadne quickly moved on and dated Dionysus. They run a school clique called the Maenads, and they host parties that everyone in school goes to…Except for Theseus…he’s never invited 🙂

When Orpheus’s girlfriend, Eurydice moved away, Orpheus kept on moaning and complaining about until Dionysus and the Maenads got so annoyed that they beat him and threatened to do it again if he didn’t shut up.

Greek hero Highschool au. We’ve got the star track player, Atalanta. We’ve got the volleyball team consisting of leader, Odysseus, and his other teammates, like the star duo, Achilles and Patroclus. We’ve got the messy couple that just need to break up already, Jason and Medea. We’ve got the overly aggressive power lifting star, Heracles, who one time got into a fist fight with Professor Hades’s 3 Rottweilers because of a bet.

One time, Odysseus’s team goes on a 10 day volleyball tournament out of town, but after missing the bus home, Odysseus takes 10 more days to figure out how the hell to get back himself.

Anymore ideas?

[amostcuriousmythicist]

The above account reminds me a lot of Isocrates version which also portrays Theseus’s Amazonian marriage (this time being Hippolyta) as consensual:

The Scythians, led by the Amazons, the offspring of Ares, who made the expedition to recover Hippolyte, since she had not only broken the laws which were established among them, but had become enamored of Theseus and followed him from her home to Athens and there lived with him as his consort

Isocrates 21, Panathenaicus, 193

I kind of wonder if Theseus ever got Deja Vu from traveling to a foreign kingdom where the princess of said kingdom immediately falls in love just at the sight of him and betrays their home just to be with him.

[...] Heracles was besieging Themiscyra on the Thermodon, but could not take it, but Antiope, falling in love with Theseus, who was aiding Heracles in his campaign, surrendered the stronghold. Such is the account of Hegias. [...]

Description of Greece, 1.2.1. Translation by W.H.S. Jones.

Antiope (sometimes called Hyppolita, I prefer to use Antiope), girl, did you surrender Themyscira, betraying you people, to get a guy???? Heracles must have been so happy to have brought Theseus along…who would have thought he would get away with a task he was having trouble with because one of the Amazons thought his friend was hot? I knew that Antiope's consent varied depending on the source (sometimes she is kidnapped, sometimes she chooses to go with Theseus), but I didn't know that in the consent version she actively betrayed the Amazons.

There is also the detail that some sources indicate that when the Amazons attacked Athens to get Antiope, Antiope fought on the Athenian side…and in the process was killed by an Amazon.

When Theseus learned of the oncoming of the Amazons he came to thee aid of the forces of his citizens, bringing with him the Amazon Antiopê, by whom he already had a son Hippolytus. Theseus joined battle with the Amazons, and since the Athenians surpassed them in bravery, he gained the victory, and of the Amazons who opposed him, some he slew at the time and the rest he drove out of Attica. And it came to pass that Antiopê, who was fighting at the side of her husband Theseus, distinguished herself in the battle and died fighting heroically. The Amazons who survived renounced their ancestral soil, and returned with the Scythians into Scythia and made their homes among that people.

Library of History, 4.28.3-4. Translation by C.H. Oldfather.

Here, he says. the Athenians were routed and driven back by the women as far as the shrine of the Eumenides, but those who attacked the invaders from the Palladium and Ardettus and the Lyceum, drove their right wing back as far as to their camp, and slew many of them. And after three months, he says, a treaty of peace was made through the agency of Hippolyta; for Hippolyta is the name which Cleidemus gives to the Amazon whom Theseus married, not Antiope. But some say that the woman was slain with a javelin by Molpadia, while fighting at Theseus's side, and that the pillar which stands by the sanctuary of Olympian Earth was set up in her memory.

Life of Theseus, 27.4. Translation by Bernadotte Perrin.

Wondering what it was like to be an Amazon marching to Athena in hopes of saving one of our women only to find out that she's been fighting AGAINST you and that this whole time she's been leaving you because she tought the enemy is hot...and then in some versions Theseus marries Phaedra. In other words, Antiope/Hyppolita's betrayal was for nothing. She even tried to stop the marriage and died in the process in this version (the other version is that she died during the battle in Athens and Theseus married Phaedra after her death).

Hippolyte was the mother of Hippolytus; she also goes by the names of Glauce and Melanippe. For when the marriage of Phaedra was being celebrated, Hippolyte appeared in arms with her Amazons, and said that she would slay the guests of Theseus. So a battle took place, and she was killed, whether involuntarily by her ally Penthesilia, or by Theseus, or because his men, seeing the threatening attitude of the Amazons, hastily closed the doors and so intercepted and slew her

Library, E.5.2. Translation by J.G. Frazer.

It kind of reminds me of how Psidice betrayed her city Metimna in exchange for being Achilles' wife because she fell in love with him watching him fighting, but was stoned to death because Achilles thought her betrayal was disgusting (Pathernius' Love Romances 21). Something similar happened to Scylla, who betrayed Megara by revealing how to kill the king (her father) because she was in love with Minos, who killed her because he thought she was disloyal. Ariadne and Medea also betrayed their parents and countries for an attractive man and didn't have happy endings with those men (although, depending on which version you choose, they did find happiness in other ways).

[amostcuriousmythicist]

Sophocles lost Play: Teucer

A tragedy that was thematically close to Sophocles’ Ajax, though the relationship between the two plays is unknown…Teucer was in some sense a sequel to Ajax, dealing with the aftermath of Ajax’s death and the fraught relationship between Ajax’s father Telamon and his surviving son Teucer. The play centred on Teucer’s homecoming to Salamis and on Telamon’s rejection of Teucer for failing to save Ajax’s life, an eventuality predicted by Teucer in Ajax. Apart from F577, in which we glimpse Telamon lamenting his son’s death, the fragments tell us nothing. But additional information is provided by Aristotle, who cites Teucer twice in his Rhetoric. Aristotle reveals that the play included a debate (or agôn) between Odysseus and Teucer, in which Odysseus used Teucer’s family connections in order to claim that Teucer was on the side of the Trojans; Teucer maintained that he was not a traitor, for if he had been, he would have denounced the spies. Aristotle also notes that the play contained an example of the technique whereby an opponent’s argument is refuted by quoting his own words against him (though no precise details are supplied).

The Lost Plays of Greek Tragedy (Volume 2) by Matthew Wright. Page 116-117

1) it seems Sophocles switched up Odysseus’s characterization from his Ajax from Teucer’s advocate to being the leading voice that calls for his banishment (it’s safe to assume actually that Odysseus is supposed to be the one that convinces Telamon to send his son into exile)

2) as for how this works within the continuity of the Odyssey…it probably doesn’t work at all but feel free to try and make it fit in

[amostcuriousmythicist]

I mean putting aside how disgurbung this is, it does give a really plausible explanation Perseus and Dionysus’s rivalry.

The conflict starts because Perseus doesn’t want Dionysus cult in Argos and like…who could blame him?

Obviously he doesn’t want to be buds with the protege of the man who tired to rape his mom and groom him as a baby!

Danae can’t catch a break good god