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aucari · 26 days ago

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GAAAA I FORGOT TO REBLOG THIS I SPENT FOR EVER LOOKING FOR IT!!!!

I have dont me best to spead this word cuz tbh you are 100% right about this fr tho

Tbh my only thing id love more on is how TF does permadeath happen, cuz like its a BIG deal in the world. Rot seemed like a really good answer to that. But tbh for vanilla there just isnt any evidence to that appart from people misinterpreting the sleeping sprite and saw how most seem to line up.

Anyways god it took forever to find this again and i will now stand by this despite it making some details need to have more explanation

Why Hunter doesn't have rot

Spoilers for Hunter / Survivor / Monk / Watcher

Just to clarify before even going into this I’ll be treating Downpour as it’s own separate universe thus not making it cannon to Vanilla. This is in no way to discredit Downpours story (I love it myself, I think it's a really powerful narrative) But considering it was not written by the Vanilla team I’d prefer looking at it as an AU for my Vanilla analysis ! This also leads me to treating Watcher more cannon than Downpour since it was written by the original team, but it will only be used to reinforce smaller points.

Now with that said despite Downpour popularizing the idea that Hunter has rot Vanilla in no way supports this. The reasoning is quite simple there's no mention of it whatsoever beyond pebbles making a remark of “We both have something... unfortunate growing in us.” which if you want to interpet as we have the same thing growing in us you could say he has the rot, but this is a sympathetic statement. Pebbles is simply (for once) empathizing with something for having a similar-ish experience that is some form of disease spreading in them respectively. But Hunter is a normal animal he is much more likely to have a normal disease like cancer / tumour.

Where would have Hunter even gotten the rot from? By Downpour standards the rot does not survive outside of Pebbles. He also for all we know is not from anywhere near Moon / Pebbles having been sent by NSH / Pebbles not seeming to recognize him either. We’ve also never seen an example of rot taking over a creature anywhere in Vanilla, not even in Downpour (ignoring Hunter ofc) If the rot was powerful enough to infect animals already there is no reason most creatures around Pebbles should be as healthy as they are. We’ve only seen creatures be infected in the Watcher which also shows insight into what it would look like.

All rot Hunter depictions have the rot be his fur color / generally blend into his body seamlessly that we see in the Watcher would not be the case. The rot well, rots the animals it infects distorting their colours and malforming them. The inner cores glowing the colour of the rot since it is a foreign object consuming them rather than a part of that creature. Even in different regions the rot stays black with only the inner core of it changing colour. The single evidence I’ve seen of Vanilla Hunter having rot is his sleeping sprite which I’ll break down why I do not believe is rot with an anatomy breakdown.

Their body is one big banana shape with limbs attached on top of it.

Tho sometimes drawn as a ‘single toe’ we could safely say that is for simplifying the drawing process.

Why are these important?

Apologies for messy visuals. But what people interpret as a rot cyst on Hunter's back is in fact just his hind leg with some unfortunate perspective. What Hunter does when sleeping is curl their tail all the way below their chin while laying down flat on their stomach which is bound to contart their body in funny ways leaving their leg to really only do 1 of 2 things, be smushed under his tail (what Survivor and Monk does) or above his tail that he does in his prite.

If that’s not enough we also never see hunter with any sort of cysts on his back any any other art of him. But we do see 1 other art of him have scars on his hind legs.

Considering his eye scar is depicted everywhere since it is a big part of his design (even really fainting on the last pick it’s more visible on the other ones tho) A less reliable but worth to mention thing too his eye scar is visible in every merch (again it’s his main design beyond being red) yet he has not even a scar on his back since it was uneseceary detail (one of the poster arts does have him with an x scar on his side tho without cysts as per usual) If he truly had rot I don’t see why such a huge detail would not be included in multiple sprites of him and even as a small detail on his merch (remeber they have all of spearmasters tail holes embodered / inv's sketchy eyes being kept they don't cheap out on details) So in short. We have no reason to believe normal rot we see in Vanilla can infect creatures like the sentient rot in Watcher. We also do not have real evidence of him visually having rot for the only depiction in my opinion is just confusing a sprite of his for something it is not (some of the what seems to be early art can be a little janky since they were still figuring out how to draw slugcats) We also know for a fact he is not from near Pebbles thus not having a real way of catching rot unless the sentient rot has spread in the world already.

Worthy mentions I couldn't fit neatly anywhere else: - I’m aware that in the last slide him is having his illnes disolved out of him but just before that he's simply seen swimming without anything affecting him and we do not see any growths on his back. which would've been a perfect placement to show it be removed from him. - his death sprite also doesn’t have any rot sprouting out from him which would be very important if he did have it. - This isn’t to say I don’t like the Hunter rot theory but to me it’s just a really popular fannon that got slightly out of hand to the point people think it’s fully cannon. - I also think the hunter rot theory is really cool to explain how he can have extra spears. I’ll admit I have no idea how he does that without having rot. Maybe his fur is just so thick it gets stuck in it /hj

If anyone has counterpoints or supporting point I’m very interested to listen !

#rain world #hunter #theory

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aucari · 2 months ago

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Might i add sum i dont see many ppl talking about either is hunter like we have a LIVING playable example of what happens n shit

And i saw so many write off the perma death thing so much whenever i mentioned the implications. Like its a PERMANENT death. IN THIS WORLD!

The rot at least to me, always had some connection to ascension. that's for sure is what i bring up with this point👍

⚠️ ((MASSIVE WATCHER SPOILERS FOR THE ENDING AND ALL OF THE POST-GAME))

Some assorted ramblings about Watcher lorestuff. These are mostly concerning the Second Ending; I might make another post later. shrugs. I don't want to posit these as the "Correct" readings or whatever, just the ones I'm currently fond of. Hopefully you get something out of this.

The Kingdom, a Distorted Reflection of The Void Sea

A Triple Affirmative?

The Prince's "Kingdom" exists as an alternative Solution, a distorted reflection of Ascension, as the title suggests. The language used to describe its glorious vision is strikingly reminiscent of language around the Great Problem:

"Imagine: a single substrate… Life!Throughout all time! Nothing lost. No one lost. A living memory of all life, forever! From bug to god, all as one. None above the other. A TRUE end to the pattern. That is my vision."

– The Prince (Rot Friend!)

I mean, I'm not sure how much more explicitly Prince can state it. Its Kingdom is THE solution, in its eyes. A catalog of all things, living forever, free from the struggles of the Cycle. And this Solution is farther-reaching than any we've ever seen; the (Prince's) Rot Engulfs everything. It does not discriminate between bug and god, between rock and carbon, between microbe and macro-organism. All are welcome in its Kingdom, and that Kingdom is ever-growing.

Of course, I am speaking from a theoretical standpoint here; I am not advocating for the Kingdom as a "true" Solution. I don't believe the Great Problem can ever be solved; it is against the nature of the world. But perhaps I am getting ahead of myself. Regardless, I believe the Kingdom to be untenable.

Certain regions in Watcher cannot be infected, which may suggest this Solution is not as all-encompassing as it seems. But Watcher plays with the fabric of space and time and the realms between the material and the Void, so this may be a moot point. Regardless, I'd rather focus on Philosophy than Practicality.

This "Solution" is Thoroughly Undesirable; we wish to leave the carnal plane of suffering and repetition, not bind ourselves to it forever!

Sure, nothing will be "lost", but who will be there to appreciate the memories of its little amalgamation? The Prince? And what of the ingredients it has ingested? Digested into soup of flesh, where all are one, and all are nothing.

This Solution, naturally, is presented as an alternative to Ascension, a side-stepping of the Great Problem. But I have a slightly different proposition:

The Kingdom is the Antithesis to the Ascension, just like the Rot is the Antithesis to Void Sea.

Ascension Versus Assimilation

The nature of Ascension is vague, but one possible interpretation I find of note is a melding of one's many disparate selves, no longer separated. A fullness of Self, and a fullness of perspective, freed to move on to world beyond the Carnal Plane. Even with more collective interpretations, I do believe each moving part is of equal significance. It is a mural of stained glass; an integration of many pieces arranged to form a greater whole.

Each piece fits together, but each piece is distinct. There is a harmony to this, and no one is above the other. A freedom from the struggles of the carnal plane and the oppression of the Cycle.

In the Kingdom, however, these many pieces eventually blend into an indistinguishable mass, equal by nature of their assimilation, rather than integration.

"Oh, you have brought sundries? You can leave them here if you wish, as a contribution. My processes will dissolve them to their base components and those components will be added to the mass. Nothing to waste, every bit counts!"

– The Prince, when brought an item

Its dialogue does not change based on item. This frustrated me, but in hindsight, I believe it serves to further my point. The details do not matter to the Prince; everything is broken down to its base components and assimilated into the Mass.

A World without Death, but also a Story without Continuation.

Opposing Forces

"As with all great deeds, my work is not without great challenge. It has taken eons and the light fades. The paths close and change. I can almost feel... a will... at odds with my own."

– The Prince

My buddy gandolph said something really insightful about the nature of the Rot we see in the Watcher. They've said it better than I can, so I'll just leave this here:

(this is all inference. just one reading of many)

I find this extremely compelling, and I'm big into the idea of the Rot and the Void Sea acting as opposing forces as well as foils.

"...If you leave a stone on the ground, and come back some time later, it's covered in dust. This happens everywhere, and over several lifetimes of creatures such as you, the ground slowly builds upwards.

So why doesn't the ground collide with the sky? Because far down, under the very very old layers of the earth, the rock is being dissolved or removed. The entity which does this is known as the Void Sea."

– Subterranean Teal Pearl

Rot is an unmitigated growth, often compared to cancerous cells. It is life without termination; a construction with no completion. It builds and builds, grows and grows, assimilates and assimilates...

The Void Sea counteracts this force by dissolving this unmitigated growth and allowing new life to spring forth. To allow for new birth, there must also be space for death. For change.

Where Rot remains, Void moves forward. The Kingdom would keep its inhabited trapped in this world for all eternity, whilst Ascension seeks to ferry them to the next.

Unfortunate Evolution:

Unfortunate Evolution is an interesting segment, and I feel it illustrates this dichotomy between Rot and Void quite deftly. Once you enter, you cannot warp out, giving this a Cinematic sort of feel. I do believe it is meant to parallel the entrance into the Void Sea at the end of the basegame, just... twisted.

The use of zero gravity signifies a relation to Iterator Internals, but I think the drastic shift in movement is a purposeful parallel to swimming in the Void Sea. This movement is harder to control than swimming, though. You can't move very far forward without pushing off a wall or throwing something or otherwise utilizing pre-existing momentum.

You "swim" upwards, in contrast to swimming downwards into the Void Sea

Unfortunate Evolution feels cold and desolate, still and quiet, like a corpse. In contrast, the Void Sea, as liquid, feels brimming with life and movement.

You're teased with a glimpse of the "Rot worm", though it's initially sectioned off from you, rather than a being sharing that same space.

As you venture into the open space, the background is dark and dilapidated. Contrast this with the increase in Light as you venture further into the Void Sea, especially with how many lights you see. Illumination versus Obfuscation.

The biggest difference is perhaps in the results of these meetings.

The Void Worm guides you towards enlightenment, facilitating your journey towards ascension. It interacts with you, bringing you with it, cutting your string, and then it allows you to complete your journey. You swim into the light, ascending, and the game ends.

The Rot Worm, meanwhile, tells you nothing, takes you nowhere, and hardly even seems to acknowledge you. You swim past it and end up at a portal that takes you back to Outer Rim. And then you continue on like nothing ever happened. It's... notably Anti-climactic, at least to me. But I believe that is the point. The Rot Worm (and UE by extension) is only an imitation of the familiar; a fleeting distraction in a much longer journey.

...Or, it was like that for me, at least. Maybe it's not intentional, but I think this reading is very neat. The Prince's Rot has no enlightenment or salvation or even ending to offer you. Just an indiscriminate consumption of all in its wake and the stagnation that follows.

The Conclusion:

Therefore, the Prince's "Enlightenment" is antithetical to its very being. There are many ways to interpret the ending, of course. Perhaps this was a counteraction from the Void Sea, restraining the Prince in its hubris and re-establishing the cycle of death and rebirth. Was this a conscious act, or simply a natural occurrence? I'm unsure. Alternatively, but not mutually exclusive to this reading, is the suggestion that the Prince was "paralyzed from its contradictory existence", as gandolph stated.

The contradiction of the Prince's Self and Ego versus the unification and equality of all life. The contradiction of its pursuit of enlightenment and cataloguing with its mindless desire for consumption and assimilation. The contradiction between their inherited imperative and its implicit nature.

At the Prince's Coronation, its Kingdom crumbles. Karma Flowers engulf its corruption, and so life is born anew. In a way, I suppose its blessed substrate has been achieved, just not in the way it expected. The rot will be consumed, just like the dust before it.

UPDATE: adding these images of Survivor's Ending and Prince's Ending for further comparison.

Side-by-side, you can see the resemblance between the Slugtree and the Throne, though there are also some notable differences:

The Slugtree's trunk is much thicker, making it seem healthy and long-lasting. Throne's "trunk", by contrast, seems sickly and distorted

Slugtree is covered in "leaves" whilst the Throne is (at least by silhouette) barren. Again, the Slugtree appears full of life whilst the Throne is sickly and dying

Slugtree is full of light; Throne's only light is the Karma flowers now growing atop it / consuming it

Also note how the slugtree is full of slugcats that form a greater image together but still exist as their own beings . nothing to add for throne here but it adds to the "Ascension is Integration whilst Kingdom is Assimilation" reading

sorry for poor organization. here are some more thoughts:

A Prince Versus a King

Okay luna this is really cool, but like, isn't the Prince just a datamined name anyways? does it being a 'Prince' instead of a 'King' even matter?

great question guy I made up in my head just now. Everything matters, of course, but here are my thoughts on it being a 'Prince' specifically:

The Prince is likely meant to serve as a foil to Spinning Top (Echo Friend), as the Prince is a nascent consciousness, and ST is a child. Naming it 'Prince' strengthens this connection.

The Prince is not a child, however. Children learn and grow. Children eventually become adults, and they move on. We see this with Spinning Top. As we accompany on them on their journey throughout space-time, we prompt the self-reflection necessary to process their memories and accept the next chapter in their life. (There's a whole post I could write about ST and their insight into Echoes, but that's for another time.) By its very nature, the Prince can never move on. It does not have Self reflection, because Self is all it can ever truly know. All it learns is assimilated into the mass. Like I said, its attempts at enlightenment are contradicted by its nature as Rot. Hence, they serve as foils.

The term 'Prince' may suggest an attempt at humility, which is deeply ironic, but understandable. Prince proselytizes about its world of equality, but inherently this cannot be, because it has placed itself at the top of everything, implicitly, by assuming its way is best for everyone. A Kingdom needs its ruler, and Prince has graciously accepted such a role.

I think my favorite reading, however, is that the Prince is simply yet to succeed its Throne. That there is some point it hasn't reached, something still left to achieve. Perhaps once its Kingdom's construction has completed?

The Ending, then, serves as its "Coronation." A crown of Karma flowers for the freshly-appointed King. An Elegy to Ignorance.

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EDIT: also want to make a nuance disclaimer that rot in General is not inherently the same as Prince Rot / Kingdom specifically yay . and im just a little guy make sure to read lots of different posts 🙏👍

there's also much to be said about the Throne and the Rot and the Brain Trees and etc but someone else can do that much better than me. And also another disclaimer that this reading may become outdated with future updates yay. happy watching everyone

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