azraelssword

[azraelssword]

So because I think that Batman... is a good guy... facist propaganda is working on me? The moral ideal: I want to do good for people v.s the moral ideal of I want to hurt the people that hurt me are fundamentally different. You said you were talking about their morals- again, the base principle of what they view as right and wrong were similar and I disagreed. Now you're on some other point. Stay on point. Batman has always been about an incredibly flawed person who is doing good the only way that they know how, even if it isnt always actually right. Red Hood acts on his own self interests and thus it makes their philosophies fundamentally different. I would also say that a shattered leg is not the same as mass murder, but I'm sure you'll find a way to try an insult my intelligence for that too

BTW, Bruce got his back broken because of his own bad decisions. Maybe you should add Knightfall to your collection. And that's just one time. You act as if losing Dick, his girlfriends, and friends etc etc because of his shitty choices dont affect him at all.

Also you can blame dc editorial but I can't wrt Roy and Kori?

Onto the main point tho:

Is this not Jason trying to get Bruce to kill joker or do you have a way of explaining this that also boils down to me being media illiterate. Can you just say you imprinted on Jason Todd and when other people don't like him it feels like they don't like you already instead of trying to explain why Batman is a facist and doing a bad job of it

To be honest I think that a lot of people who share the anti Jason Todd sentiment don't even actually hate Jason. I think a lot of them hate what he forces the narrative to do.

Jason forces the subversion of the hero genre -- he's the single, most extreme proof that Batman's hero fantasy wouldn't be effective in real life, and therefore Jason showing up can take you out of the universe really fast really hard. A lot of people are here for what comics are meant to offer, the one man hero fantasy that makes you Feel Good, and Jason showing up doesn't Allow you to enjoy it! And if that's the case, you're completely justified in not liking Jason, he takes you out of the thing you enjoy.

I think a lot of you don't actually find his personality or acts annoying in of themselves, you just hate what those actions do to the genre itself. And I think once you realize that and start looking at comics like actual pieces of literature, Jason and shitty comics both will become a lot less rage inducing to you.

[azraelssword]

So just to clarify, your point about the real world is that Bruce's "hero fantasy" doesn't work as proved by Jason's death....which shows that trying to help people...doesnt do anything? Despite the fact that Jason's death is used as a moment for Bruce to re-evaluate and change, to become more dedicated and work harder than ever to help people and successfully does for 2 decades? Also I'm not gonna agree that the moral of "I don't kill other people and will do anything to help someone else" and "I think it's fine to kill other people because they are bad"(and before we bring up joker I'm literally talking about the 80 ppl he poisoned in black gate) are even comprable.

Jason and Bruce are not similar in their philosophy at all- Bruce believes that in solving murders will be able to provide the closure to victims that he never received, and in that vein delivering evil ppl to justice will protect others. Jason wants the people that hurt him to be hurt, like Bruce. Jason purposefully tried to have Bruce kill Joker because it would hurt Bruce. He literally says this! He didn't care about helping people, or saving Gotham, he wanted to hurt Bruce! How are u gonna call me media illiterate and then...ignore the text. Which isn't even to say I don't like Jason, I like that motivation. It's interesting. He is, however, at most an opportunistic anti hero, and mostly a villain that will and has consistently acted in his own self interest or just to disrupt. Up until recently where he's been doing next to nothing.

Couple of other problems here- Dick doesn't own acrobatics, but Jason was made as a replacement to him, and originally had Exact same backstory(they were called the flying todds ffs). Be real. He also doesn't own friendship, but they dumbed down both Roy and Kori to create a team reminiscent of the Titans with another bat as the lead.... and that seems totally organic to you? Not even to mention, Roy Harper, a character with 70 yes of history and one of the best character arcs in dc was reduced to groveling at Jason's feet? And Kori was basically a sexy goldfish? That's friendship? You keep talking about dc editorial and you don't think they did that to move comics because titans always did numbers, and used misogyny and ableism to get there?

On the subject of Bruce wondering if what he's doing is right, and the narrative answering yes... are UtRH and ADITF the only comics you've read? Because what you're saying is just incorrect. Both golden and silver age comics examine this and allow Bruce to fail with drastic results.

Moreover, the debate as to whether Bruce abused Dick has been going on in and outside of comics for over 60 years. Please be serious. Maybe pick up a comic before you talk about them.

To be honest I think that a lot of people who share the anti Jason Todd sentiment don't even actually hate Jason. I think a lot of them hate what he forces the narrative to do.

Jason forces the subversion of the hero genre -- he's the single, most extreme proof that Batman's hero fantasy wouldn't be effective in real life, and therefore Jason showing up can take you out of the universe really fast really hard. A lot of people are here for what comics are meant to offer, the one man hero fantasy that makes you Feel Good, and Jason showing up doesn't Allow you to enjoy it! And if that's the case, you're completely justified in not liking Jason, he takes you out of the thing you enjoy.

I think a lot of you don't actually find his personality or acts annoying in of themselves, you just hate what those actions do to the genre itself. And I think once you realize that and start looking at comics like actual pieces of literature, Jason and shitty comics both will become a lot less rage inducing to you.

[azraelssword]

[azraelssword]

I'm genuinely confused about this- how does Jason do anything metatextually new or challenging? Sidekicks dealing with the near and or deadly effects of fighting crime-Dick, Roy, and Donna all had that perspective and is the thesis of NTT, TT99 and Outsiders. Some people deserve to die mentality and challenges Batman with it- Huntress already did that. Not to mention Batman comics constantly speculate as to whether Bruce is making the right moves, and if his version of justice is the right way, well before Jason came back and without him. It's one of the draws of his character?

Also like... since you mentioned the real world I'm just gonna say that Jason's methods- killing member of organized crime/killing prisoners(not joker, the 80 guys he killed in black gate) is widely considered the worst way that you can handle these things? Because it doesn't work in the long run(war on drugs) and hurts the families of the incarcerated. Even in UtRH... what does Jason actually solve? Black mask is still around, Joker is still alive?

The reason that people don't like Jason is because he was originally a Dick Grayson clone who went on to have 2 good comics(UtRH and Beastworld) and one good run as a villain(b&r reborn) but is otherwise just...there. He borrows a lot from Dick's character and mythos, down to re-using his love interests and friends but fails to be the version of The Punisher he was intended to be.

To be honest I think that a lot of people who share the anti Jason Todd sentiment don't even actually hate Jason. I think a lot of them hate what he forces the narrative to do.

Jason forces the subversion of the hero genre -- he's the single, most extreme proof that Batman's hero fantasy wouldn't be effective in real life, and therefore Jason showing up can take you out of the universe really fast really hard. A lot of people are here for what comics are meant to offer, the one man hero fantasy that makes you Feel Good, and Jason showing up doesn't Allow you to enjoy it! And if that's the case, you're completely justified in not liking Jason, he takes you out of the thing you enjoy.

I think a lot of you don't actually find his personality or acts annoying in of themselves, you just hate what those actions do to the genre itself. And I think once you realize that and start looking at comics like actual pieces of literature, Jason and shitty comics both will become a lot less rage inducing to you.

[azraelssword]

Finished for the evening! I once more have things I need to do tomorrow but I have 2 (TWO) days off next week so I'm hoping I'll be able to finish this painting by next weekend