ccfan1999

[ccfan1999]

Seems more like vague intuition from what ive seen.  And as much as I wish that applied…I don’t think it has for a while now. The “original sin” from the original usm was to bring terrible decompression to the genre and it has stuck in nearly every book not done by someone from before the 2000s.

I mean, given the sheer level of interest in this (the only comic currently in the stands to actually sell out physically across stores leading to them forcing a one comic per person policy)…it seems like its an effective setup to contrast with out of  all the different ways that spidey’s been played with. Well honestly the changes all play into the generally known stuff about spider-man so idk. I mean it’s a pure AU, that’s what those are lol. And idk, I respect you immesnly but it does seem like changing the goalpost. Marvel was pretty open about it being a radically different take, people latched on to the family thing but even in the covers they don’t get that much play, being in 8 out of 18.

Ehh, I mean the ultimate universe as a whole was, hence x-men matching more with the movie astethically (and being changed from its original pitch to make it match further like mystique not being an x-man or wolverine not being an antagonist). Ultimate was thought of as a line first. It did absolutely play into the growing “spider-man is about youth” movement and all. Tho giving bendis some credit, it was during the period where spider-man was a widower in one of the most malgined asm status quos (history does rhyme, doesn’t it), so that perspective isn’t totally wrong, and for its worth he did defend the marriage and spider-man actually getting to age, maybe why he never got to write ASM if I had to take a guess.

I did say from the ground up, as in reinvention. We can debate its merits, and I do agree with nearly all your crticisims mind you, but it was always sold as a radical new take, to the point that seeing how the characters would be different in the ultimate universe was a consistent selling tactic used by it. Tho id say…I don’t think Hulk-Goblin is the worst..i get making him mutated rather than wearing a mask and playing to a David vs goliath imagery with spidey and him, tho I do wonder why the hell they dropped the cape he had in his first two apprences for just purple pants. I guess they had to compensate for ult hulk being grey?

I do think spectacular is better (I mean spectacular is superb overall), but spectacular was also fundamentally an adaptation, ultimate wasn’t as a setting.

The foruth arc was the legacy GG arc, I thought it was the peak of bendis writing norman Osborn overall, as its all downhill from there in either setting. The idea of norman’s sense of ownership over spidey given the changed origin is also a neat play on the responsibility stuff. Kingpin id say was the highlight of the run, both itself and the really good mj id issue. Ock’s arc was the weakest of the initial roster, but its very much above everything that comes afterwards. The angle for kraven is terrible. But the peter/mj and may stuff was pretty good. I guess the next arc over could also count, but that one rushes trough captain stacy’s death way to fast, and then you get to venom which is where usm goes off the rails with only  a few good points afterwards.

And since bendis there’s been 4 well known movie series as well as a super prominent video game series and a bunch of other adaptations. A greater level of base familiarty is kind of expected. If anything this plays a lot with elements that people would be familiar with those, I mean goblin is literally raimi goblin with purple and a different mask.

I dunno I think the sense of life on autopilot and then getting validated that you could do more makes enough sense. And being fair, if peter’s a journalist or photographer he’s already risking his life presumably so its not that big a leap, that and its not like supervillains are presented as an enduring element of this world, neither as superheroes (there’s like, one pre-existing one?) so there’s a lot less frame of reference to make that choice.

It is presented as MJ being in the known, as the next issue previews kinda suggest.

I mean cute is physical attraction.  Soft but still. On the personality side, we see that peter is portrayed as being “responsabile” off how he’s described as a father. Also remember he’s some kind of jourlnaist so there’s still an “exciting” part to draw her in (see how she was presented originally pre-id retcon in the Romita run as finding peter’s photographer job as fun). He also has his sense of humor definitely as shown a few times.

I dunno if id disagree, but my argument is more so that its not that big a leap that it could have happened. Like an easy way is that without spider-man peter would be a bit more perceptive about people rather than having the tendency to hyperfixate on just himself, maybe noticing mj’s façade as that sooner. Or because she’s the first girl that would have hsown interest in him the two hit it off more sooner and then deal with that later.  And being fair, we don’t even know if peter went to ESU since neither he or mj know harry as its directly stated, and if he went gwen was specifically attracted to him initially because he didn’t jump on responding back to her advances. So realistically peter would never have been with her.

And I mean this book is intended to be read with some base pop culture familiarity of it, and given that spider-man is the most popular superhero..it doesn’t seem all that far fetched.

I mean they’re still examples of settings that don’t diverge from a specific point, and they have changes that aren’t exactly logic driven about it.

Earth One was built around being dc’s answer to ultimate, so a pure au reimagining of stuff but “modern”

I said the new 52’s earth two, not the main earth from the new 52 lol. That one was a pure au on the original earth two.

I mean the point seems to be to use it as a drastically different setting from 616 to explore superheroes just starting out as a phenomenon in the 2020s without long established sueperheros. Like Wakanda on the backfoot or the x-men as outcast students without a school to rely on.

By reversal I mean the setting overall being a mirror reversal to the original ultimate. Which is what hickman said was the intent too so like it’s the driving idea behind it.

-the original ultimate tony was a man who wanted to do good with the little time he had left due to having a tumor, the new ultimate tony is a teenager who has all the time in the world left to the point that he’s implied to become kang eventually (also I guess that’s a play on the original ultimate kang being a future sue)

-The original ultimate hulk was a monster ruled entirely by its ID and often used as a pawn in the schemes of people like fury, the new ultimate hulk is a monk who is in specific control of his ID while being the unnoficial second leader of the cabal, both however are some of the most antagonistic ptorayals of hulk  being totally fine with killing and  gray rather than green.

-The original ultimate thor was a hippy where him being a god was put under doubt, the new thor is much more aggressive and he’s introduced specifically as a god, both however cant return to asgard at the point of start of the story.

-The original ultimate reed became a doom like figure ruling over his own “nation” with a feeling of betrayal to the cloest person he had to a friend , facial scarring and being the greater scope villain of ultimate by its conclusion, while the new one is literally using the doom name but is heroic despite never having gained his powers but having a more doom-like personality with colder less warm interactions.

-The original ultimate peter got his powers as 15 and then stayed that way for the whole narrative it being hyperfocused on his role as a young her, with aunt may being especially relevant in his story in a way she wasn’t in 616. Here peter is bitten exactly 20 years later putting emphasis on this greater age (down to the first page being ‘peter parker you aren’t getting any younger’), with aunt may being dead before the story starts and instead uncle ben being a more active participant in the narrative than in 616. Both dela with villains in a similar order so far.

-Ultimate cap is the most jiongistic cap’s ever been as well as being a decidedly less “innocent” cap than his mainstream counterpart while being the core of the setting as everything else happens due to trying to createmore supersoliders. Nu-Ultimate cap exists in a world where the USA doesn’t exist and is presented as a remnant of a more innocent/pure age before the changes to it and being erased from records by the maker apparently.

I mean this IS just a first issue, in a modern genre ruled by decompression.

Because the context the speech is a call to action speech, but of a different sort. Its about inaction , its not using the R word, but rather about not letting it just pass him by. It is a fundamentally different message for a fundamentally different story.

Also the lack of villains kind of plays to it, peter isn’t doing this with that genre/context savvy we have. And being fair he also makes it clear mj/his family is his first priority and that he wont let this get in the way of it, which is an interesting flip on the usual which I am somewhat curious how it’d play long term. His job is also now run by kingpin, so its not like he can do that much there either

I read Ultimate Spider-Man #1 by Hickman

So I checked this out in isolation of the whole event or events leading up to it.

I'm trying to decide if this is a case of false advertising or if it is actually as disappointing as it seemed.

This series was marketed on the grounds of 'come check out a married Spider-Man with kids'. But that was by no means the focus of the story. The focus was upon a) Uncle Ben's grieving Aunt May and b) peter's choice about whether to be Spider-Man or not.

Let me steelman and say, hey, the marketing was exploitative but that isn’t Hickman’s fault.

Honestly, this premise is still rather broken.

Let’s say, for the sake of argument, this universe is identical to 616 except the Maker has strategically meddled with it to avert the existence of superheroes.

Okay…so he made sure Peter’s parents died when he was 15 instead of like a toddler. And also that he wasn’t bitten by the spider. And also that there was no burglar. Couldn’t he have just gotten rid of the spider? Why all the extra stuff? And if he didn’t do anything other than get rid of the spider…why are all those other things different?

Speaking of which how/when/why does Jameson know the Parker family at all? Uncle Ben was a factory worker, he had NOTHING to do with the newspaper business and why would a working class guy like him know a millionaire/billionaire like Jameson? Why would he ever go into that business? Why would the Maker change that at all? If he didn’t change that how could ANY of the changed he made in the timeline ever have resulted in that?

Similarly, why is PETER working for the Bugle? Peter’s interest in photography was specifically in relation to his career as Spider-Man. Yes, he developed something of an interest in it later in life in his 20s, but that was a fleeting thing after he left college. It was never really his long term career goal. Sure, you could say he is working on the science section of the Bugle. But…why? Why wouldn’t he just, you know….go into a scientific field in general? What does the Maker gain from changing that if he was responsible for changing that at all?*

And this, in fact, is a microcosm of how the premise of this story is borked. In a world where Peter Parker

Is an adult

Was not really raised by Uncle Ben and Aunt May because his parents died when he was 15

Never experienced the death of Uncle Ben or Aunt May in his teens

Was never a superhero

HOW exactly is he the character we know and love? The fun of a What If or AU is contrasting the new version to the character we are familiar with. But by rights he should be MASSIVELY different as a person. He wasn’t raised by people who were almost a generation older than his parents. He didn’t have to bear the burden of being a provider or caregiver for his household as a teenager. He never had to cope with the guilt of Uncle Ben’s death. And would he even know the Great Power/Great Responsibility thing considering it was a combination of being RAISED by his aunt and uncle along with Ben’s death that drilled that into him? In this universe neither of those things are factors so if he DOES live by that life lesson how and why would he?

As an extension of that, how and why did he wind up with Mary Jane considering his upbringing combined with his life as Spider-Man were important factors in them falling in love. Mary Jane was attracted to his sense of responsibility, but that sense of responsibility came about due to his upbringing and that upbringing has changed. Not to mention, given her abusive father, knowing Peter was a man who had incredible power (like her father had over her) but used it responsibility was a HUGE aspect of her attraction to him, plus she got turned on by the danger to some extent.

So…how did they hook up? Unless the Maker for some fucking reason decided to make sure MJ’s Dad was a successful author and never touched the booze. But WHY would he do that????????????

And then you have the big one which is…Peter can magically sense he is in fact supposed to be Spider-Man….um…Okay, so, yes, Peter does have a certain belief in destiny because he talked about it maybe being his destiny to be Spider-Man when he was a teenager and even older. But…that was a belief. He questioned it. He never SENSED that about himself. You could argue being Spider-Man is from his POV something he doesn’t have a choice about, but that’s like saying a parent doesn’t have a choice to look after their kids. They do. It’ just that you do not have a choice about it if you feel compelled to be a good person. It was never a magical bullshit thing.

Hickman in this regard and in his general portrayal of Peter is almost making this weird ass nature over nurture argument. That Peter wouldn’t been broadly the same kind of guy we always knew him to be albeit he could commit to a 9/5, a family and be less tightly strung because he doesn’t have the stress of heroism or guilt shit. And I guess he has less of a sense of humour? (Although so does Uncle ben, though he is grieving…although Jonah is a lot more touchey feeley than he should be as well sooooooo….)

But that’s just…lame.

It’s making a mockery of Peter Parker’s struggles in the 616 and most traditional portrayals. His experiences are integral in forming him into who he is as a person. Hickman is arguing that Richard and Mary’s DNA was actually the most important thing in shaping his personality. Unless are we really saying Richard and Mary would’ve been broadly the same kind of parents May and Ben were? They were goddam CIA agents!?

And on top of that…the story is making this BROKEN argument for Peter being a superhero. He feels like he is drifting through life. He feels unfulfilled. Like something is missing. Uh huh…um…what about your kids bro?

If you become a superhero aren’t you going to be potentially exposing your family to danger? Don’t you risk your kids growing up without a father because you get killed, crippled or are generally occupied a lot by being a hero.

Now, to be clear, that situation is A LOT different to 616 Peter who already had great power before meeting MJ. He also started his career at age 15 vs this Peter who’s literally going to learn how to web-swing and fight at age 35! Shit, most people whobecome soldiers, fire fighters or police officers don’t START their careers (with 0 training btw) at age 35! And there is a massive support network for those roles too.

I’m not saying Peter can’t be a superhero and a family man, but I am saying it is morally wrong for him to CHOOSE to turn himself into a superhero when he already is a family man. This is like saying it is okay for a man in his midlife crisis to blow a chunk of the family savings on a sports car or get himself a 20 year old mistress because it will make him a more engaged husband and father.

Basically, this first issue represents a lose-lose scenario from where I am standing. We don’t know much about how this Peter is different. The ways in which he is don’t make sense. The ways in which he is similar don’t make sense. These questions need to be answered BEFORE we get to the premise of the story (Peter choosing to be Spider-Man at age 35 when he is a family man). And the premise itself is unbelievable unless we want to buy into Peter being a selfish asshole, which therefore makes him unlikable in general and very much NOT like the Spidey we know and love.

Basically, this series might as well NOT be about Peter Parker in the first place, but some other guy living through a mid-life crisis by becoming a superhero.

*Are you noticing how I kee coming back to the Maker as a explanation for these changes? I don’t even know if the stuff leading into this spelt out what he was and wasn’t involved with, but that is a big question that should be addressed. Unfortunately it is the ONLY way to explain these changes beyond ‘its just different because it is’. And either way it is lazy and lame as shit.

[ccfan1999]

Continuing from dms

Regarding the feeling It is presented in ultimate universe #1 as something that thor, reed (who here is doom, to show how much the maker's changes have affected) and tony all felt before they knew it. So part of the premise is that they have that underlying feeling. But if we have to specificy with peter, in invasion he has the bit about maybe it being his turn, before it doesnt happen. That and playing on the whole "showing them all" part of af15 i guess

Does it mess with the premise? The premise is peter becoming spidey when he's 35 and the tagline in the YT trailer (with almost 700k views) is quite literally "a spider-man saga unlike any other". Meanwhile the original USM's idea was "spider-man but in the 2000s from the ground up" geared for adaptations to use it as a source material. And hoenstly i would argue the first four arcs of Bendis’s USM were pretty good, he only started to drop the ball later. And honestly comparing it with the first issue of bendis’s USM it does just as much to set its characters, arguably more so by giving both JJ, Ben and harry actual motivations going foward. I mean, its part of the setup that they’re a couple. Tho honestly…i think them getting togheter is one of the easiest parts to buy. MJ already thought peter was cute pre-bite in parell lives, and she only blew off their introductory dates becuase she knew he was spidey, and without that and presumably peter never being in a relationship with gwen they’d probably just jump at it sooner, even if with time and all. And i mean originally what we saw was the journey of them falling in love, but this is a story that starts with them already in love, using the fact that they’re the defacto couple in nearly every iteration to start them in a different point in life. I mean there was a whole 5 issue prelude to more or less explain why things are different as the main hook for all 4 upcoming books. And this, much like the original ultimate, or earth one, or the new 52’s earth two or noir, or gaslight or 1602 is a pure AU. Its not a what if, or a bool sold around the idea that its a spin off from 616 ala spider-girl. If anything the main hook here is that this setting is a reversal of the original ultimate.

Also related honestly peter’s parents being alive makes sense as a result of the stuff maker does to begin with, since there’s no US, there’s no SHIELD, so they wouldnt go on a plane and die when he’s a baby.

Regarding the responsability thing Its more so that it is played with, in that context its someone using it ironically, since its about preventing a hero from being made by chance. Especially as its someone that would be aware of it once being a college of his peter. The traditional responsability speech is basically giving by ben with the whole bit about inaction coming from the man whose been his parental figure for 20 years here. It amounts to the same message just expressed differently, like the one scene from tasm but a bit better written.

I read Ultimate Spider-Man #1 by Hickman

So I checked this out in isolation of the whole event or events leading up to it.

I'm trying to decide if this is a case of false advertising or if it is actually as disappointing as it seemed.

This series was marketed on the grounds of 'come check out a married Spider-Man with kids'. But that was by no means the focus of the story. The focus was upon a) Uncle Ben's grieving Aunt May and b) peter's choice about whether to be Spider-Man or not.

Let me steelman and say, hey, the marketing was exploitative but that isn’t Hickman’s fault.

Honestly, this premise is still rather broken.

Let’s say, for the sake of argument, this universe is identical to 616 except the Maker has strategically meddled with it to avert the existence of superheroes.

Okay…so he made sure Peter’s parents died when he was 15 instead of like a toddler. And also that he wasn’t bitten by the spider. And also that there was no burglar. Couldn’t he have just gotten rid of the spider? Why all the extra stuff? And if he didn’t do anything other than get rid of the spider…why are all those other things different?

Speaking of which how/when/why does Jameson know the Parker family at all? Uncle Ben was a factory worker, he had NOTHING to do with the newspaper business and why would a working class guy like him know a millionaire/billionaire like Jameson? Why would he ever go into that business? Why would the Maker change that at all? If he didn’t change that how could ANY of the changed he made in the timeline ever have resulted in that?

Similarly, why is PETER working for the Bugle? Peter’s interest in photography was specifically in relation to his career as Spider-Man. Yes, he developed something of an interest in it later in life in his 20s, but that was a fleeting thing after he left college. It was never really his long term career goal. Sure, you could say he is working on the science section of the Bugle. But…why? Why wouldn’t he just, you know….go into a scientific field in general? What does the Maker gain from changing that if he was responsible for changing that at all?*

And this, in fact, is a microcosm of how the premise of this story is borked. In a world where Peter Parker

Is an adult

Was not really raised by Uncle Ben and Aunt May because his parents died when he was 15

Never experienced the death of Uncle Ben or Aunt May in his teens

Was never a superhero

HOW exactly is he the character we know and love? The fun of a What If or AU is contrasting the new version to the character we are familiar with. But by rights he should be MASSIVELY different as a person. He wasn’t raised by people who were almost a generation older than his parents. He didn’t have to bear the burden of being a provider or caregiver for his household as a teenager. He never had to cope with the guilt of Uncle Ben’s death. And would he even know the Great Power/Great Responsibility thing considering it was a combination of being RAISED by his aunt and uncle along with Ben’s death that drilled that into him? In this universe neither of those things are factors so if he DOES live by that life lesson how and why would he?

As an extension of that, how and why did he wind up with Mary Jane considering his upbringing combined with his life as Spider-Man were important factors in them falling in love. Mary Jane was attracted to his sense of responsibility, but that sense of responsibility came about due to his upbringing and that upbringing has changed. Not to mention, given her abusive father, knowing Peter was a man who had incredible power (like her father had over her) but used it responsibility was a HUGE aspect of her attraction to him, plus she got turned on by the danger to some extent.

So…how did they hook up? Unless the Maker for some fucking reason decided to make sure MJ’s Dad was a successful author and never touched the booze. But WHY would he do that????????????

And then you have the big one which is…Peter can magically sense he is in fact supposed to be Spider-Man….um…Okay, so, yes, Peter does have a certain belief in destiny because he talked about it maybe being his destiny to be Spider-Man when he was a teenager and even older. But…that was a belief. He questioned it. He never SENSED that about himself. You could argue being Spider-Man is from his POV something he doesn’t have a choice about, but that’s like saying a parent doesn’t have a choice to look after their kids. They do. It’ just that you do not have a choice about it if you feel compelled to be a good person. It was never a magical bullshit thing.

Hickman in this regard and in his general portrayal of Peter is almost making this weird ass nature over nurture argument. That Peter wouldn’t been broadly the same kind of guy we always knew him to be albeit he could commit to a 9/5, a family and be less tightly strung because he doesn’t have the stress of heroism or guilt shit. And I guess he has less of a sense of humour? (Although so does Uncle ben, though he is grieving…although Jonah is a lot more touchey feeley than he should be as well sooooooo….)

But that’s just…lame.

It’s making a mockery of Peter Parker’s struggles in the 616 and most traditional portrayals. His experiences are integral in forming him into who he is as a person. Hickman is arguing that Richard and Mary’s DNA was actually the most important thing in shaping his personality. Unless are we really saying Richard and Mary would’ve been broadly the same kind of parents May and Ben were? They were goddam CIA agents!?

And on top of that…the story is making this BROKEN argument for Peter being a superhero. He feels like he is drifting through life. He feels unfulfilled. Like something is missing. Uh huh…um…what about your kids bro?

If you become a superhero aren’t you going to be potentially exposing your family to danger? Don’t you risk your kids growing up without a father because you get killed, crippled or are generally occupied a lot by being a hero.

Now, to be clear, that situation is A LOT different to 616 Peter who already had great power before meeting MJ. He also started his career at age 15 vs this Peter who’s literally going to learn how to web-swing and fight at age 35! Shit, most people whobecome soldiers, fire fighters or police officers don’t START their careers (with 0 training btw) at age 35! And there is a massive support network for those roles too.

I’m not saying Peter can’t be a superhero and a family man, but I am saying it is morally wrong for him to CHOOSE to turn himself into a superhero when he already is a family man. This is like saying it is okay for a man in his midlife crisis to blow a chunk of the family savings on a sports car or get himself a 20 year old mistress because it will make him a more engaged husband and father.

Basically, this first issue represents a lose-lose scenario from where I am standing. We don’t know much about how this Peter is different. The ways in which he is don’t make sense. The ways in which he is similar don’t make sense. These questions need to be answered BEFORE we get to the premise of the story (Peter choosing to be Spider-Man at age 35 when he is a family man). And the premise itself is unbelievable unless we want to buy into Peter being a selfish asshole, which therefore makes him unlikable in general and very much NOT like the Spidey we know and love.

Basically, this series might as well NOT be about Peter Parker in the first place, but some other guy living through a mid-life crisis by becoming a superhero.

*Are you noticing how I kee coming back to the Maker as a explanation for these changes? I don’t even know if the stuff leading into this spelt out what he was and wasn’t involved with, but that is a big question that should be addressed. Unfortunately it is the ONLY way to explain these changes beyond ‘its just different because it is’. And either way it is lazy and lame as shit.

[ccfan1999]

Sadly this is true, the previews came out...

Oh, yeah I heard that the new run is gonna have everyone(superhero, loved ones)hate him because of an incident and apparently Mary Jane is gonna leave him again. Tombstone is gonna come back as a major threat too. I mean Superman has held on to Lois for what? A long ass time? Spider-Man can do the same with Mary Jane since I figured that Supes/Lois and Spider-Man/MJ are both famous couples in comics...

With respect i hope you are wrong.

But also...like... This IS the ame guy that implied a giant lizard monster raped a woman before he ate his own child so... what hope was there to begin with?

[ccfan1999]

Sadly i’ve not been able to find those ones. Just one with GG (which had a spetacular esque look).

Hey Hellz, have you ever read the Spectacular spider-man uk magazine? They're impossible to find online save for two issues, and kinda an intresting trinket that way.

Yes I have read it. There was a time I was picking it up alongside the UK reprints.

I must confess though that I didn't care for it, by the time I was regularly reading it I think I had grown out of it's target demographic, although I desperately wish i could find scans of the two Spider-Girl and one 2099 appearances from it.

[ccfan1999]

Batgirl x Superboy Commission

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[ccfan1999]

Luke and Mara from the Star Wars EU! My little contribution to the fandom. They’ve been my faves since I picked up an old battered copy of Heir to the Empire when I was a teenager and fell in love with their relationship. 

[ccfan1999]

All of Cassandra Cain’s costumes

rStarting with her most iconic outfit, here’s her batgirl outfit. While it’s had some variations depending on the artist (such as if the face is viisble underneath or not or if the eyes are lenses) the basics have remained, and it is an incredebly striking suit. Easily one of my favorite costumes of all time.

While Cass’s vigilante suit techincally predated her Batgirl one, the outfit into itself was created first. Her pre-batgirl costume is incredebly generic but it does showcase her profiency niceley, as well as her simplicity. While it’s supposed to be paint the face certainly looks more like some sort of mask.

While the DCAU themed rendition of Cass’s costume isnt actually worn by cass but by a Cass-Helana hybrid of sorts, it should be counted as its the first time the logo was presented as a different color than yellow.

In batgirl #7 after being fired by Bruce due to the loss of her prediction ability Cassandra donned another makeshift costume, more clearly inspired by her time as batgirl. Do note how she keeps covering her face.

In Batgirl #40 Cass is forced to make a makeshift costume when the cruise ship she’s in get’s attacked. Not much to say outside of the spider-man like eyes.

In Batgirl #45 to celebrate Cassandra getting the wizard fan award for best heroine for the third year in a row Cass got to wear Barbara’s classic outfit. The in-universe justification being that she wanted to try out a less scary look.  

During the same run (Horrocks) Bruce ended firing Cass, but she continued to operate as Batgirl using a modified version of Barbara’s costume changed to look more like her own. This was the outfit she donned in the confrontation with batman in Batgirl #50,

In the pages of Justice League Elite Cassandra Cain inflitrated the eponymous team under the alias of Kasumi , an assasin that had killed over 60 men before being an adult, under batman’s orders. This costume marked the first time Cassandra would be potrayed with swords of any type.  And it continued Cass’s trend of covering her face.

Within the team, she had to take a second fake identity (reaching inception levels of false identities here. She used the shadow thief’s belt to become the Nothing.

While not necessarily a costume onto itself, Cassandra wore a particlar training outfit during the Gabyrch run that should be counted. Note her half face mask.

In Solo #10 by Damon Scott we saw an AU future with Cassandra as Batgirl, being the partner (in both senses) to Tim Drake as Batman, known together as the Batt.It should be noted that Cass dyes her hair red for this costume, evoking Barbara’s design. And for anyone wondering this was pre-adoption for both Tim and Cass.

Perhaps Cass’s most infamous alternate costume, her league of assassins’ costume she wore during OYL Robin.  It echoes her mother’s outfit a lot. Nothing to say beyond that.

Her second league of assasins’ outfit she wore in supergirl. Note the Nolan batman earring. A nice little detail on a design that would otherwise be flat.

Techincally her oirignal costume but i had to include her Supergirl #15, red sword Cass look. Adding white eyes, a totally different logo and a bat shaped belt.

The final “Evil Cass” Design, is the one she wore during her tenure with Deathstroke’s Titans West. Donning an all yellow batsuit and a more cylidnrical utlity belt. Debuting in  Teen Titans #43.

In the Titans of Tommorow an alternate future version of Cassandra Cain as Batwoman showed up in Teen Titans #53. Intrestingly this is the second time Cass has donned goggles on her costume. It should be noted that previously Cass had been mentioned to be dead at the hands of Joker’s daugther.

In  Red Robin #17 Cassandra donned an unamed vigalnte costume that would serve as the base for her black bat costume. On a personal note, i wish this with a bat logo was what Black Bat would have looked like. The scarf is quite striking.

In  Red Robin #19 in the Unternet Tim Drake created avatars of “future” heroes, with Cassandra donning the bat-cowl (possibly under the batwoman name, once again). The design is rather visibly more batman-y than most of her other looks, keeping her covered face. A fantastic design, and probably what her future would look like. 

Her Black Bat costume first appeared in Batman Inc#6, and is probably one of the three most well desings for Cassandra. It had a few variations, such as her cape being more ripped at first or the bandages being black. But the most notorious inconsitency is her bat logo. Wether it was solid yellow, her classic black with a yellow outline or a metallic gold. All three are pretty striking.

While techincally this outfit was never used officially one should count Dustin Nguyen’s “vampire hunter” cass, from his Gotham Boys and Girls club. Swapping the yellow with red. A good alternate color to yellow for Cass.

In the ani-comic statue line Cassandra had a figure, rather remarkable given she didn’t appear in the tie in comic. It is notable for being far less chaste than her traditional costume. Having black eyes that looked far more like gogles, and a tape astethic replacing the stiches. As well as exposed black hair.

In the Injustce: Gods Among Us mobile game Cassandra Cain appears as an alternate costume to Barbara Gordon. It certainly is a unique design for the character, being more more practical than usually. Cass was mentioned in Injustice Year Zero, so she does exist in the continuity.

Cassandra’s Batgirl costume from Batgirl: Future’s End #1 is simply a recolored iteration of Barbara’s new 52 costume with a differnt logo.  Not much to say.

In Cassandra Cain’s big return to continuity in Batman and Robin Eternal #1 she debuted a new costume using her older color scheme with yellow outlines, fitting the new 52′s more “practical” design astethic. She wore this maskless costume untill her adoption of the Orphan name at the end of the series. Standing as the third of her most well known desings.

Her orphan costume barely counts as a different costume but the return of Cass’s traditional stiched mask should be counted. It had a few variations, with white eyes, yellow stiches, a hood, and fingerless gloves. It can be an incredebly striking design, but most of the time it gives off the idea that it’s just her Batgirl design without the logo and bat ears.

In the Young Justice: Outsiders animated series, Cassandra Cain made her official animation debut (not counting her uncredited cameo in JL’s A Savage Time), appearing as Orphan, one of batman’s agents. The reason why she wasnt batgirl despite Barbara being Oracle is confusing, but the design itself is really good. Keeping YJ’s more detailed desings with a more grey coloration, while adding a black bat like cape, and a hood. 

In the mobile video game outside of her Orphan outfit, Cassandra donned a new costume. A hybrid between her Batgirl, Black Bat and Batgirl costume. Outside of her being called Batgirl in-game, there’s little to really talk about, other than it being a good combination.

The first design from the Shadow of the Batgirl young adult graphic novel. Her pre-batgirl design is the only one that mantains her “face-covered” aesthetic. With a unique blue coloration.

Her first batgirl costume from the series, serving as a homemade costume uses elements that are relevant in the comic itself, such as the cape being established prior, same with the roller shoes. While also keeping her hand bandages. It is not a design i like, but i understand its role in the narrative presnted.

Cassandra’s final batgirl design from shadow of the batgirl is one i’m rather mixed on, as outside of the hood and arm bandages, it seems more like a suit Barbara or Stephanie would wear, removing many of Cassandra’s overall style, which was more permissible in the previous ones as those were prototypes. Something about it just looks off to me.

Techincally speaking, Cassandra’s current costume ,which debuted in Joker War Zone #1, is her older batgirl costume. There are some differences that make me count it as a separate costume, mostly the white eye “goggles” as well as more current design “lines”. It should be noted that whether she’s called Batgirl or orphan isnt very defined.

In the dceased AU, Cassandra Cain ended up with the powers of Shazam, donning this cool design in the process. Not much to say other than its Cass’s only design mashup with someone that isnt another bat-character. And that blue looks good on her, again.

In Dc’s Future State line (not to be confused with Future’s End), Cassandra appeared reguarly as one of the bat characters (either being named Batgirl or Orphan at random), with this design being used across the board. A good mix between her Orphan and Batgirl cosutmes, while adding the line’s futuristic touches.

Suprisingly Cassandra showed up in Dark Multiverse: Hush. Sporting a design clearly modelled of her Kasumi identity. The characterization itself is, strange to say the least. But it is a cool costume for a more murderuous cass.

And finally, no Cass costume compilation would be complete without her Tiny Titans costume. Nothing to say, it’s just a cute cartoony depiction of the best batgirl.

[ccfan1999]

Black Bat was a downgrade

Black Bat fundamentally is just a lesser version of Batgirl. And I’ll show why in this essay.

Black Bat as an alias to Cassandra Cain made its first appearance in Batman Inc #6 by Grant Morrison. With some set up in Red Robin #17. The identity was portrayed as the Batman of Hong Kong (which is another can of worms for another day) as a representative of Batman Inc. By the Gates of Gotham mini-series she returned to Gotham. And then the new 52 reboot hit. It had a small appearance in Lil’Gotham as the artist sneaked the identity in. It appeared in Convergence Batgirl in 2014, and had a small cameo in Batman Tales: Once Upon a Crime in 2020.

So what’s the problem with the identity? Well to put it bluntly Cass, much like Tim Drake, was designed to be the best holder of the mantle (in her case batgirl). Not necessarily the best character (there is a big difference), but she was designed from the ground up to be Batgirl. One that is effective in different ways than Barbara and with a skill set that was in fact the exact opposite (which is something for another day). She combined being the best fighter in the Bataclan (or batsquad as it was known at the time), with her stories being notably smaller scale than Batman’s or Nightwing’s and a far cry from Tim’s more teenage adventures. As well as dealing with themes like whether a bad action makes you inherently bad or not. Her relationships also very much revolved around her having the mantle, she was mentored by the previous Batgirl, Bruce served as her surrogate father, she had a friendship with Tim and Steph (Tim mostly in the Gabyrch run). It was also important how being batgirl was essentially a huge part of her identity, seeing it as what gave her life meaning

Black Bat doesn’t have anything exclusive to that identity, outside of operating off Hong Kong (Cass had been established in Bludhaven and even got to travel the world once, so not the biggest change), which means you lose a lot of the strengths of her being set in Gotham. With her only getting to interact with Tim, Dick, and Damian during this time. And to boot, the costume still could fit “batgirl” (even looking more like other batgirl designs) while leaving Steph to carry the name. And that’s kinda the issue. Cass was removed from the identity sloppily and Black Bat was created as a replacement (I mean try saying that you couldn’t use that name for her original costume). The original concept was even just her batgirl costume.

Essentially the same thing that happened with Tim and Red Robin (only that the name was shared with a  public domain character rather than the other robins), an identity that was just their originals, but with “independence” and less relevance. But unlike Tim who was generally an outsider (or more “compromised” than before) during this period and had to deal with the trauma conga line he had been put through, Black Bat had nothing on her own. This is probably due to how little it appeared, but the facts are the facts.

Now to clarify, this does not mean that it’s an inherently bad identity or anything like that. In fact, my first (first real anyways) introduction to the character was Black Bat.  And the costume (which really varied on the artist) she wore during this time was quite good too! But a point has to be made, Black Bat was a demotion for the character, and the identity represents that still. It was still more fitting than the misfire that was orphan.

[ccfan1999]

Roderick is exposed as hobgoblin within it and somehow knows who peter is...

The Spider’s Shadow is a ‘What if’ miniseries where what if Spidey choose to keep the symbiote costume. Only it’s more horror themed. I got the first issue out of curiosity since I like Zdarsky on DD and I like it more than I did Life Story so far.

...didn’t we already see that concept like 3 other times?

I’m 90% sure if I did read it, like Life Story Zdarsky would cheat on continuity

[ccfan1999]

Batdad Hugs

Everyone needs more hugs in their life.  

Dick

[Batman (2016) #54 & Forever Evil #7]

Jason

[Red Hood and the Outlaws (2011) #18 & Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016) #27]

Tim 

[Batman (1940) #654 & Red Robin #17]

Cass

[Batgirl (Volume 2) #6 & Detective Comics (2016) #952]

Damian 

[Batman (2011) #17, Batman and Robin (2011) #14, and Convergence: Batman and Robin #2]

[ccfan1999]

James Arnold Taylor and Sam Witwer voiced one of the Scenes from the Princess Bride and mauls little giggle at the end is killing me.

[ccfan1999]

So I’ve watched Spiderverse and I loved it to bits and what I want to see in sequel is Peter B relatablelooser Parker to have a happy ending. Mostly because it would be hilarious to watch him and MJ deal with Jack-Jack level of bullshit. Also they deserve to have biggest problem in live being how to explain why there are kids drawings on the ceiling ;)

[ccfan1999]

turkey and azerbaijan are attacking armenia right now, and it's 1915 all over again because the world is distracted and people are too busy wondering if they're gonna live or die, and who gives a shit about my country anyway? my mum told me to tell my friends and explain to them what's happening and that we are the victims in this war because azerbaijan is spreading lies and people are believing their lies and i told her, what good is that going to do? do you think anyone's going to come to our aid? is russia going to help us? is america? is england? erdogan said they will finish what their ancestors started, and he means genocide. he means ethnic cleansing. he means to massacre every last one of us. and in doing so admitted to the very same thing turkey has spent 105 years denying. i don't know who to tell and what good telling people will do because we're a small, insignificant country, and we have nothing to offer to the people in power, the handful who rule the world. so i sit here with my pain and i feel helpless. i know there's twitter threads and links to petitions and people being urged to contact their senators, and sorry if im being pessimistic, but azerbaijan has been attacking us for the last 22 years, and though we defend ourselves, we can't do anything to stop them. they've violated ceasefires (and geneva conventions) multiple times. i don't think they'll rest until every last one of us is dead.

we just want peace. we just want to live peacefully. we're not asking for a lot here.

[ccfan1999]

I assume that given how snyder characterized dick and alfred he does get it. He has other issues but not regarding the batfamily dynamics.

 Can’t comment on the others

In the comments for a Bleeding Cool article regarding Dick Grayson’s fate in Forever Evil, one commenter’s anecdote stood out:

The reason for distancing Dick from Bruce from what I gather after asking Mike Marts, is that DC is embarrassed of the gay jokes and connotations. I asked Marts why Dick was no longer Bruce’s ward during a panel and he just kinda scoffed and remarked, “Yeah, some guy and a kid living together,” and rolled his eyes. I quickly threw in “…but I always thought of them as father and son.” To where one of the other panelists chimed in, “Yeah, an adolescent, an adult and their butler all living together,” in a mocking tone to where they all, including Snyder, broke down giggling like a bunch of school boys. It felt like there was some kind of super secret gay joke or something and they were all making fun of me for it because I just didn’t get it. I know it was a big thing in Wertham’s book, and sure SNL makes fun of it with their “Ambiguous Gay Duo”, but I always figured DC and/or WB had their big boy pants on when it came to that kind of pointless ridicule.

Obviously, this is just someone’s anecdote on an internet forum, and thus should be taken with a grain of salt. Regardless, if this is even a little bit true, then holy shit.

[ccfan1999]

Superfam & Batfam by Marcus To.

[ccfan1999]

I think its more done to make people like the ship he’s made with Jhonny comparing it to such an enduring one as Peter/MJ.

Slott wrote this apparently. A tad weird coming from him

At face value it would be nice. But I suspect this is Slott trying to slimely ingratiate himself to the fandom after he pissed on the relationship repeatedly in his run. 

Even then this is an example of him fundamentally missing a key component of the characters. Peter and MJ didn’t come ‘out the box’ compatible with one another, they GREW together through shared experiences which combined with who they were depp down and their prior life experiences rendered them compatible. 

[ccfan1999]

Can we? It would get old fast. You can only repeat stuff to a point. Each identical story loses weight. The kid who collects spider-man has been retold in spirit twice at least and it didnt have half the weight. 

You can only tell a goblin mystery, a spider-man framed story, a crime lord tries  to unite the NY gangs story or GG comes back from being an amnesiac so many times before people get bored. And most likely few of them would even be good.

Madgoblin: This story is bad because it is not original.

Me: A story doesn’t need to be original to be good. It depends upon the circumstances. We can tell, the Kid Who Collects Spider-Man an unlimited number of times