eisforeidolon

[eisforeidolon]

Screenshot: What if this thing I just totally made up that didn't happen had happened, and only we hellers noticed and realized it was a secret sign of D/C?! How sad would the rest of the fandom be for still finding ways to deny it's OMGSOCANON?

Now obviously this is a whole new level of batshit, when they're not even colorfully reinterpreting things from the show but making up shit they could have colorfully reinterpreted if it had been in the show. But one might reasonably ask why anyone would fantasize about there being more secret hidden clues instead of the characters just literally getting married on screen (🤢).

It's actually not that surprising, though, because part of this kind of shipper cult holding together long term comes from the same place as other cults - the belief that they are the special chosen ones for seeing The Truth™ the mundanes don't. So while they go on and on about how obvious it is and how there must be something inherently wrong with anyone who doesn't see it (HoMoPHoBes!!!)? They also get off on how totally superior they see themselves as for being the ones who noticed The Real Story secretly hidden in the show for the Better Smarter Audience who would do the work to find it. Which is how you get to this point, where they're literally fantasizing about random minutiae they could have written meta about had it existed.

It's a very specific, cultivated kind of denial that they've based their entire fandom existence around. A random CW fantasy horror show would totally have a secret main story told only through random clues across fifteen years while also simultaneously giving recaps indicating they didn't expect the audience to remember what happened last week. They found it, so it must be there! Look how clever and superior they would have been to have noticed a thing that didn't happen! They're not in denial, we are!

June 11th

Imagine a heller saying "because denial is off the charts for some people". They really don't get how THEY are the ones who fed the River De Nile with THEIR tears.

[eisforeidolon]

THIS.

A ship - or anything else - being canon has a specific meaning. It isn't a subset of fans cherry-picking random background details and calling it a story line, making assertions about a character's sexuality from unfortunate stereotypes, or them just desperately wanting it to be a thing really, really badly. A canon ship objectively and clearly has a romantic relationship happen in the canon.

We aren't trying to prove anything, because we don't have anything to prove. If you're having to argue about how totally canon something is, you've already lost because the canon is what is explicitly there. Not your colorful interpretations of it.

What's actually going on is that we're annoyed at a group of people who continually insist queerbaiting is sooooo terrible, but constantly lie to others about how much LGBT+ focus the show has. Who idolize the guy from the cast who has continually hinted at, mislead about, and outright lied to them regarding the ship - and literally sold ship merchandise to them to make a quick buck. All knowing it would never be a thing. Everyone else who never promised them anything, those are the REAL queerbaiters!!! A group of people who insist that GOOD representation is sooooo important to them - but instead of watching any of the shows that actually have it? When there are a lot more such shows available these days? Continue fixating on SPN that was never trying to be such a show and insisting it's the most epic LGBT+ romance of all time despite the only thing in the canon being a last-minute, half-assed, intentionally ambiguous, one-sided scene with zero buildup that is arguably the only queerbaiting the show ever did. Who think if they just scream about homophobia loud enough, no one will dare point out they're full of shit.

The shipping is fine. The misrepresentation, performative but obviously fake ally-ship, and harassment certain fans do in its name? Not so much.

why are destiel haters so desperate to prove that the ship isnt canon? You don’t have to ship it but I mean cmon no need to attack people for shipping something that has tons of reasons and proof for the ship to be canon 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️.

[eisforeidolon]

…. I think people are being very unnecessarily harsh on Jensen for his answer about WOM. Steve had told everyone previously he took inspiration from the angel storyline in supernatural. Jensen literally just parroted what Steve, the main writer and his good friend, had already said directly to fans. This was also after Jensen completely sat silently during a Misha answer about destiel. Jensen didn’t react at all, so as not to give hellers anything. Jensen said nothing about the ship in his answer. He’s in a ridiculous situation where he’s being held responsible for how hellers twist, manipulate and out and out lie about things. Are we ever going to get a “because it doesn’t exist,” moment again? Probably not. Jensen was crucified for that and things are *way worse* now for actors/actresses that don’t cater to shipper agendas, especially in the lgbtq lane. (I’m part of the community, but my God we have a lot of psychos who are militant and LOUD about bullshit….not to mention the straights who fetishize us.) The guy can’t win. He will never satisfy all the factions. We can’t all jump him if hellers find imagined holes or proof in things he says. They’ll do that no matter what. Jensen has stayed true to who Dean is for 20 years. He still adores Supernatural and wants to be with the fans. Him and Jared are gems and I’m tired of them being lambasted for everything they say- even from NON hellers

I see where you're coming from but I don't entirely agree.

Like, I agree that while hellers are obnoxious and deserve to be shut down hard at any and all attempts to reframe reality and the show, doing that isn't actually in Jensen's best interest. For randos who don't know half the history of hellers badgering him about their ship trying to talk over him and shoving porn in his face? Him going on a vehement rant could easily come off like an actor man being mad at fandom for doing fandom. Not great optics. Also, because the ship is literally not a thing in canon (a one-sided ambiguous queerbait does not a relationship make)? What little is in the show isn't even about his character, and speaking over a coworker on their character also is not great optics (if only Misha got that...). Yes, especially given the LGBT+ angle of it all where fandom loves to try and use representation as a cudgel to enforce their personal entitlement. At the end of the day, giving the ship that much acknowledgement is over-inflating its importance - it literally isn't worth the wasted breath, let alone the tantrum backlash.

Furthermore, Castiel was on the show for a long span of time - if not for a great majority of the hours. He was the main interaction point for heaven once angels came on the scene in the original throughline of the apocalypse across the first seasons. You know, the angels shaping the Winchesters' lives before they were even born and through the events we saw onscreen? He was their main ally once Bobby was no longer around, for a given value of ally. So actually it is reasonable to have thoughts about the character and think about him as a part of the show because he was a figurehead for heaven in the early years and treated by the scripts as the Winchesters' best friend/family in the later ones.

Except Jensen has to know at this point that for those certain, loudest, pushiest fans? Him saying literally anything about Castiel that isn't entirely negative is going to be taken as a hint their ship is totes real. Which was presumably why he hasn't mentioned Misha/Castiel that much in recent years unless the fans brought him up. Is that reasonable or fair to have to tap dance around? Obviously not, but it is what it is.

So it seems pretty clear to me that it would have been better to answer a question that wasn't even about the show differently than he did. Because Steve saying a thing was vaguely about angels and SPN and Jensen agreeing with a fan who asks if it was about Dean and Castiel are not the same when there are fans desperate for Jensen to talk about Castiel/Misha. The two of them having different viewpoints was already put out there by Steve, so something like, 'The show was contextually in the background but personally I was thinking more about X' or 'It was about a lot of things, art is about interpretation, great you see something in there about Y'. Instead he went with 'Yeah, sure, it's partially about Dean and Castiel'. Now anyone who has paid attention to literally anything he's ever said about the show and the relationship between Dean and Castiel within it? Knows that has sweet fuckall to do with romance. Which is not and has never been hellers. So while you are absolutely correct that he did not actually in any way validate their ship and they were going to make up stories about what he REALLY meant regardless of what he said? I do honestly think he set himself up here to get subsequent batshit, "So now that you've admitted you're writing love songs about Castiel..." questions in a way that a different answer would not have to the nearly same extent.

I'm not mad at him over it. I think it's silly to characterize acknowledging Castiel as part of the Winchester's lives and the show's story as pandering. I don't think he deserves to be badgered for it, and he was inevitably going to get weird-ass heller questions again anyway. But I also think that given the way that certain part of the fandom very obviously operates, he actively did himself a disservice with that answer.

Obviously, YMMV.

[eisforeidolon]

My understanding is Jensen and Steve co-wrote the song (co-wrote all the songs), and reading the lyrics only the second verse sounds remotely inspired by Supernatural. Which are about calling for help while in trouble and notions of freewill, and there’s nothing remotely romantic in that.

But hellers wouldn’t be hellers if they didn’t misinterpret something so plain as day.

I haven't paid that much attention to Radio Company attribution stuff, but the impression I'd gotten from people's reports from Steve's Q&As and Jensen's M&G comments? Is that Steve writes the lion's share while Jensen is there and makes occasional suggestions/contributions. I really haven't been keeping close track of what's been said though, so.

But yes, at the end of the day, there's nothing inherently romantic about the song. There's nothing inherently romantic about Jensen's agreeing that it's vaguely partially about "that story" of Castiel & angels in SPN among other things.

Except in the same way they insisted Dean and Castiel literally being in the same room was twue lurve? Anyone mentioning that Dean and Castiel existed in the canon together must clearly also inherently be admitting their relationship was twue lurve!!! Why do those characters even exist if not to be smashed together? Hellers sure don't know.

[eisforeidolon]

What are your thoughts on the watching over me thing?

I think it would have been approximately a thousand times more prudent for Jensen to have just said it wasn't about any specific thing from SPN even if there was some vague inspiration involved.

The issue with what he said is that for hellers A) There are only things that are about D/C and things they haven't figured out how to make about D/C YET. B) Castiel and Dean don't exist for them as characters with any value or story outside of the ship, so if something is about Dean & Cass it is automagically therefore about D/C.

From the sound of it, the general themes of SPN played some part in inspiring the song when Steve came up to write while Jensen was still filming SPN. Except even if we jump over the show just inspiring a general thematic of angels to it being about SPN angels, and then make a further jump to it being about Castiel rather than SPN angels in general, and another further jump to it being about Dean and Castiel's personal feelings specifically (rather than Castiel's role as an agent of heaven, or later agent of idiot ball chaos)?

Castiel and Dean do have a relationship in canon, which the canon (and Jensen) repeatedly and explicitly told us over and over again is one of allies/friendship/family/brotherhood. Like sure, I think it's a bullshit friendship with all the dumb crap Cass constantly pulled and all the fucks Dean visibly did not give. But the official story the canon wants us to believe is that Castiel is the Winchesters' best friend who watched over them and did a shitty job of it, hence where the 'angel you don't actually want watching over you' part comes in. So yeah, there's some story there that could theoretically come to mind when writing about angels.

Except Jensen saying literally anything that isn't negative about Cass/Misha at all is kind of like chumming the water. Which isn't fair, but it's true. IMO, Jensen has always been a lot less harsh to fans who don't ask belligerent or leading questions, because it's not the shipping he objects to so much as being dragged into it and talked over? I still think there were better ways to diplomatically answer that person's question than his vague waffle which wouldn't be nearly as likely to lead to having to answer five more 'so it's about D/C isn't it!? isn't it?! ISN'T IT?!? questions in the future.

[eisforeidolon]

I’m a minor cult leader in a competition to see how offensive I can be before my cult finally abandon me. My competition is Misha Collins

[eisforeidolon]

Misha Collins can say whatever the fuck he wants about Dean. He's the one that tells me what I want to hear and doesn't care about anything but pandering. That makes him right. Castiel and Dean SHOULD act out my weird, OOC fanfic on screen.

That's what they really mean, because of it was actually about being on the show or being Jensen's friend? They would not categorically throw fits about and desperately reinterpret what Jared and Jensen say both separately and together over and over again. But no, somehow it's only the weird little troll relentlessly queerbating them who should have any right to talk. Funny how that works out.

If Misha really considers Jensen a friend then maybe he should RESPECT what his FRIEND has to say and his feelings before saying the disgusting things he says about him and his character.

[eisforeidolon]

Not sure about evidence of Misha's post-confession reactions, but I am pretty sure about the context of them attacking him in Nov/Dec 2020. That was when the whole Spanish dub conspiracy thing was first going down and Misha was shoved out to make a statement about it being a rogue translation and not some elaborate conspiracy [X].

Of course, instead of believing Misha and everyone else related to the show and even the people involved in the translation, they lost their shit. Including at least one of them claiming that the video of Misha was a "deep fake" because the real LGBT+ savior Misha wouldn't do such a thing! [X]

I dove into the depths of my tags looking for evidence of Misha's post-confession reactions where he DIDN'T realize "how important that representation would be" or however he worded it yesterday. I couldn't find a vid (i may have deleted it in a heller purge) but it may have actually been some tweets, which i have even less likelihood of finding now. But I'm almost positive that in the early days after Nov 5 and after the finale, he still was saying he didn't realize what it would mean to certain fans. Of course now he has changed and embellished his story to pander to what hellers demand, after being attacked by hellers for something on twitter in Nov/Dec 2020. (I found a post of twitter fallout about that, but it didn't have the context.)

[eisforeidolon]

Do I wish Jensen would blatantly shut down any and all heller nonsense? Of course. We've seen for over a decade now that if you even give them something they generously interpret as an inch, they'll take five miles and keep on going.

The problem is with the cringe-worthy intentionally ambiguous queerbaiting goodbye scene being part of the canon now, where Misha and the hellers are desperately trying to sell it as some kind of revolutionary coming out story (FFS LOL)? Well, they were already screaming about Jensen being a homophobe when there was literally nothing in the show. So when Misha tries to talk up how totally onboard Jensen was to do it [X]? Like, they're talking about Misha's shitty character assassination of Castiel while Dean stares blankly into the void. Is Jensen supposed to jump in and be like, "No, I thought it was fucking stupid?" No, for the same reason he didn't demand it be removed in the first place back when Misha was making a point of telling fans he thought Jensen would shut it down but didn't. It's not even really about his character and the nutballs would (have) start(ed) another sock-fueled spam campaign calling him a homophobe. And right now? That'd be happening just as he's about to start doing publicity for a new show and does not need that showing up in the search results.

Likewise, when a fan asks about the bizarro conspiracy over that one RC song [X], he weasel-words around the question and says that sure there was some vague inspiration in some parts in there about "that story". Now the question did reportedly directly refer to Dean and Castiel, but neither said nor directly implied D/C [X]. Literally every time Jensen has ever talked about Dean and Castiel's relationship it has been about what the canon told (not showed) us it was - allies/friends/brothers/family. He just didn't add any pointed disclaimers this time. But of course hellers hear literally anything that isn't go fuck yourself as OMG DETESTIEL IS REAL, JENSEN CONFIRMS!!! (Also naturally nevermind that Steve writes most of the lyrics and this actually fits very neatly in with his description of an angel you don't actually want watching over you like an invasive creepily obsessed stalker.)

Like, Jensen has said he realized there was no point in getting upset like he used to when people interpret what they want instead of seeing what he thought was important [X]. He really doesn't need one of their tantrums being visible online right now particularly. I can understand it from that point of view, and I actually think jumping in on the first question would have been an actively bad idea instead of just blank staring into space aggressively chewing and waiting for Misha to STFU. Still, waffling so vaguely on the song question seems like exactly the way you buy yourself into having to navigate more minefield questions by crazies, convinced if they just ask one more time... But maybe when you've seen they're inevitable anyway, you figure heading off the tantrum for a while is worth it. IDK.

[eisforeidolon]

It's the strangest thing. But in Sam and Dean's heaven, the weeks have only six days. There's no Tuesdays. It takes Dean a while to realise.

[eisforeidolon]

Oh, FFS. Someone needs to take the word parallel away from them, I swear. This is one of their dumbest attempts by far and yet here it is again.

Director vaguely frames two fight scenes in the same way FOURTEEN years apart - AHA! An intentional parallel! AHA! Clear love interest vibes! Um, except fight scene choreography isn't that unique and even if the random coincidence of framing meant anything? Alec also ISN'T Max's love interest in that canon. Especially not at the point in the show when the scene shown happens and they aren't even friends. Any shared thematic beyond random coincidence that existed? Would just be about getting an unexpected ass kicking from someone you didn't expect was capable of it.

They really just pick out two random things, cross their eyes, and start screaming about how "parallels" mean twue lurve. No. As said above, actual story elements of romance have to happen for a story to be a romance, and actual parallels in a narrative underline the narrative that actually exists. It's not just wild myopic projection onto random things that are vaguely like entirely unrelated random other things (that explicitly don't even mean what they're asserting anyway in this case).

I swear they enjoy being pathetically wrong.

Yes we have the "nerve" to say that because he wasn't. We watched the actual show. And if you ever watched it he actually had no love interests. He was a hunter. He had zero time for a real relationship. If he was an actual love interest that would require being in a relationship, first of all. Things like saying ily to each other, spending quality time together, hand holding, kissing, you know, what couples do. But you're not ready for that. LOL

[eisforeidolon]

They really hate that he's moving on, that they're never gonna see him in a gay romcom. But let's be real here. The only romcom they want him in is with Misha. That thought is so laughable. Out of all the handsome men out there, that he'd really do one with that!!! 😂😂😂

[eisforeidolon]

This is the thing. Hellers have never been fans of Jensen, they just want a mute, compliant placeholder that looks like him who is obligated to simulate gay sex for them to get off to.

Oh, sure, they'll brag about whatever Jensen does/says (or whatever they can colorfully interpret out of whatever he does/says) as part of their perpetual ongoing war with the entire rest of the fandom that doesn't worship their ship as cooler than Jesus. But as soon as he says or does something that doesn't fit their fantasies? They're back to screaming about homophobia, trying to get him cancelled, or making unhinged rants about poisoning water supplies and setting his house on fire.

They genuinely loathe that he doesn't need them like Misha does and therefore can't be forced into making D/C canon. So yeah, they are deeply threatened by a show featuring him as action hero with a het love interest. Both for its own sake and for the potentiality of future similar roles if it doesn't flop. If he wants those roles, they can't insist he wants to star in a gay love story above all else. If he can get those roles, he'll never be desperate enough to make out with Misha for them. (Not that he would anyway, mind, but they're in especially deep denial about that because there has to be some way to force him to want it.)

The only reason they don't openly hate him with the same fiery fury they direct at Jared 24/7 is that if their fanfic was to ever get acted out on screen, they'd need him. So they always have to ultimately self-soothe back around to being his "fans".

https://www.tumblr.com/walkergirlsposts/784821121110441984/hell-never-escape-them-smh

lol this whole thread is lava and other hellers saying the show is cringe, it’s gonna flop/they can’t wait to see it flop and they can’t take Jensen doing another “action dude show”

Like sorry, those are the roles he wants to play. Get over it.

https://x.com/lavabend/status/1927223549392986617

And that’s not even mentioning lava quote tweeting the clip of Jensen unintentionally saying the n-word with the caption "cancel him so he goes broke enough to play dean winchester again"

That quote tweet even got 1.5k likes… do hellers even like Jensen anymore?

Hellers never did like him. They've only ever used him for a ship. What do they think?? He's going to stop doing roles he likes and do a gay rom com?? Let's be real. They only rom com they want him in is with Misha. Hell will freeze over before that happens. Lol

[eisforeidolon]

I mean, replace "fandom" with "my personal D/C bubble" and then substitute this specific plot event for basically the whole show and you have their entire vaguely SPN-adjacent experience in a nutshell:

I love how my personal D/C bubble has collectively forgotten everything meaningful that ever actually happens in the episodes. Like, it's literally just about D/C now, the rest doesn't matter.

Now if they could just somehow wrap their single brain cell around the idea their personal fixation on reinterpretation/fanon/fanfic instead of watching the show says a lot about them and nothing about the show? That shockingly, the actual events of the show continued to matter to actual fans of the show who somehow continued to exist outside of their specific corner of fandom?

However since we're four plus years out from the finale and they still just ~*cannot understand*~ why the show's finale was based out of the show's plots and themes instead of catering to the basic bitch YA cliches they were making up in their heads about ATGs they were calling "Dean" and "Cas"...

May 27th

Imagine being THIS obsessed with a fanon ship where nothing else about the show matters or even exists.

[eisforeidolon]

"It's mostly women who wanna fuck him" sounds way too much like "Having a pussy and a sex drive makes you delusional and incapable of logical argument."

@brunnismemorybank

It sounds too much like it because that's exactly what it is, but with probably even less self-awareness.

And this is the thing that is so absurd and pathetically transparent about not just hellers but a lot of other entitled shippers in current day fandom. THEY are totally concerned about representation or some other Important Cause, YOU just have icky weird sex feelings about the characters and no shame!

Which is completely ridiculous not just for the weird neo-puritan conservative vibes? But also because of how clear they make it they actually give no shits about representation because it magically never matters unless it's about their specific ship. Almost like it might *gasp* really actually just be about what they personally find titillating! The horror.

A gay ship versus a het ship (self-insert or not) is an obvious win in the Purity & Oppression Olympics, but no matter the opposing ship, they can always come up with some reason that unlike everyone else, their shipping is righteous and not like all those other shallow degenerate shippers. It's so amazing, it's even obviously superior to not shipping anything at all!

[eisforeidolon]

They really don't get less pathetically transparent.

It's no secret that pretty inevitably whenever you find someone going on about ~*fOuND faMbiLy*~ in SPN, it's actually just about D/C. I.e. if everyone and their dog is also family, surely Sam & Dean's relationship is just not that important because they've got all this other family to lean on! So surely Dean will want to be with Cass romantically because he needs something more!!!

Except even if you accept that found family was a general theme in the show - and not a throwaway line used a couple of times (where in the last seasons it was particularly a shortcut to paper over how shallowly most of those relationships were written) or a reference to the cast/crew/fans bonding? The original person being subtweeted is a lot more accurate to how that worked out in the canon.

Over and over again, Sam & Dean relied on, believed in, and turned to each other in a way they did not for literally anyone else. Every major conflict of the show ultimately came down to the state of that very specific, very exclusive bond between them. Over and over again, Sam & Dean accepted the loss of literally everyone else and went on in a way they never did for each other. Hell, even as the canon ends and Dean convinces Sam to accept letting him go? Sam leaves hunting and lives the rest of his life as a blurry montage where only his grief and his son are in focus. Everyone else faded to the background to some extent. Hell, Dean literally says that in 11x23 to the angel, "You know sometimes me and Sam have got so much going on that we forget about everyone else."

A canon that was genuinely about found family as a main focus would center on that family as a unit working through and supporting each other through everything. What SPN actually had was Sam & Dean ... who had occasional intermittent interactions with other characters they called family and then often all but forgot about when they weren't onscreen (which was most of the time). I'm not saying those characters were not important, but they were in no way pivotal or even present in the way those obsessed with the idea of SPN being a ~*FoUnD faMbiLY*~ canon need to be the case to undermine the centrality and depth of the brothers' bond.

For someone who thinks Dean and cas were the mains after season 5 doesn't get an opinion. And they have family. Each other. Lmaoooo

[eisforeidolon]

Honestly to me it's an interesting thought exercise as to how bad they'd be and how long they'd have hung on after the finale if Misha wasn't actively still encouraging them to try and keep himself solvent.

There are other fandoms that have had really batshit shipper omgsocanon theories despite the canon and creators' statements - even some that carried on past the canon's ending. So it's not ALL Misha. But I can't imagine that having one of the actors from the show repeatedly validating their nonsense hasn't played a serious role in keeping it going in both fervor and duration.

And yeah, Jensen's answers have changed, but the change has been along the lines of, 'What the actual fuck are you talking about, that's weird' to 'People are going to be upset at me if I tell them it's not real so better be diplomatic'. That is not remotely the same thing as changing from seeing the ship as romantic/sexual rather than platonic or changing from seeing the show as about the brothers to desperately wanting to do a revival where he makes out with Misha. But hey, it was A Change so surely if they just keep acting fucking batshit crazy and throwing tantrums, they'll get him there eventually! I mean, it's not like he's got anything other than milking SPN going on where just not catering to them is an option ... oh wait, no, that's Misha.

They're so desperate to have him hate it. Who cares what the actors think? Why do you need to be validated? Lol