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Podcast: From Divorce to Besties

  How did Gabe and Lisa go from being spouses to divorcees to best friends? Do they hold any residual anger toward each other? Hurt feelings? Secret attraction? How do their current spouses feel about their friendship?

If you’re curious to understand their unique journey, join us as they tell all on today’s podcast.

(Transcript Available Below)

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About The Not Crazy podcast Hosts

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from Gabe Howard. To learn more, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

        Lisa is the producer of the Psych Central podcast, Not Crazy. She is the recipient of The National Alliance on Mental Illness’s “Above and Beyond” award, has worked extensively with the Ohio Peer Supporter Certification program, and is a workplace suicide prevention trainer. Lisa has battled depression her entire life and has worked alongside Gabe in mental health advocacy for over a decade. She lives in Columbus, Ohio, with her husband; enjoys international travel; and orders 12 pairs of shoes online, picks the best one, and sends the other 11 back.

    Computer Generated Transcript for “Divorce to Besties” Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Lisa: You’re listening to Not Crazy, a Psych Central podcast hosted by my ex-husband, who has bipolar disorder. Together, we created the mental health podcast for people who hate mental health podcasts.

Gabe: Welcome, everyone, to this week’s episode of the Not Crazy podcast, I’m your host, Gabe Howard, and with me, as always, is Lisa Kiner. Lisa?

Lisa: Hey, everyone, today’s quote comes from the website, Live Happy: When two friends become lovers, that’s ordinary. When two ex lovers become friends, that’s maturity.

Gabe: Lover. That’s all I hear, like in that whole quote, remember that Saturday Night Live sketch?

Lisa: Yes, yes.

Gabe: And then we became lovers. The word lover just has this awful connotation that I’m very uncomfortable with, especially in the context of you, Lisa.

Lisa: It’s making me more uncomfortable the more you say the word, frankly.

Gabe: Right, but that is weird. It is weird that at one point in my life you were my wife and I spoke to you like a wife, you know. Hey, honey. Hey, Pookie. Exactly what you would expect in a romantic relationship.

Lisa: Right.

Gabe: We were married for five years. We dated for three years before that. I mean, two years.

Lisa: Is that right?

Gabe: I don’t know. We were together for a long time. This wasn’t, this wasn’t a cuffing season situation. We were together for years.

Lisa: What’s cuffing season?

Gabe: You’ve never heard of cuffing season? 

Lisa: No.

Gabe: Cuffing season is when it gets cold outside and you don’t want to go out and date because it’s just hard.

Lisa: OK.

Gabe: But you still want to be with somebody. So you cuff them just for like a few months. 

Lisa: Cuff them?

Gabe: And then you break up. It’s called cuffing season.

Lisa: Oh, so cuff is a synonym for sex?

Gabe: I think it’s like handcuffs.

Lisa: That doesn’t make sense.

Gabe: Look, I don’t I don’t design millennial words, I don’t know what you want.

Lisa: Ok, all right, it’s a millennial thing, OK. Yes,

Gabe: It’s just.

Lisa: I do not understand their ways, their ways are mysterious to me.

Gabe: Cuffing season is when it’s cold outside, so you don’t want to put on the short skirt and the high heels and go out to the clubs to meet people. So you stay in a relationship for a few months until it warms up outside and then, boom, you’re back. And it’s called cuffing season.

Lisa: I’m going to Google that.

Gabe: It’s UrbanDictionary.com. I highly recommend it. That’s where I learn everything that my nieces and nephews say. Otherwise we’d be having two different conversations,

Lisa: Yeah,

Gabe: Much like now.

Lisa: That thirsty thing.

Gabe: Yeah, I had no idea.

Lisa: I know, right, it’s so weird and the whole swoll, I don’t get that one at all.

Gabe: Well, I mean, I’m swoll. I’m swoll A.F.

Lisa: Oh, it took me a second,

Gabe: Yeah, yeah.

Lisa: Because I’m not one of them.

Gabe: Yeah. Laugh at me all you want. I just want people to understand that this was not a short relationship, this

Lisa: No, no.

Gabe: Was a long relationship.

Lisa: We were together for years.

Gabe: We owned a home together, we bought a house, we bought cars, we went on vacations. We. 

Lisa: We had pets.

Gabe: We had pets, everything. And now I can’t see it. At one point, Lisa, I called you Dear Honey Pookie. We held hands, we cuddled. We did everything that a married couple did and behaved. I mean, we were a married couple. We behaved and acted. 

Lisa: Right.

Gabe: Like a married couple. And now all these years later, if somebody says, hey, Gabe, do you miss making out with Lisa? I think, eww, eww.

Lisa: Oh, yeah, eww

Gabe: Right.

Lisa: Wow, I’ve never noticed that before.

Gabe: I get this, like, visceral reaction and that’s perfectly normal. Nobody wants to make out with their best friend.

Lisa: I’ve never noticed

Gabe: Right. It would be like

Lisa: Ick.

Gabe: If somebody said, hey, Gabe, you want to make out with your sister? No, that’s disgusting. I don’t want to make out with my friends. That’s it’s a different relationship. But what makes this interesting

Lisa: I’ve never noticed that.

Gabe: Is how did we go from, you know, hey, at one point we made out all the time and now we’re like uck. That’s gross.

Lisa: I never noticed that. That’s interesting.

Gabe: Where did that turn, because we were very stereotypically married, right?

Lisa: Of course, we were a married couple like any other.

Gabe: We are very stereotypically best friends with maybe like a dash of codependency.

Lisa: A dash?

Gabe: A dash.

Lisa: A small dash,

Gabe: A small like like a cup.

Lisa: Maybe several cups, yeah,

Gabe: Like a

Lisa: A pound and a half, maybe.

Gabe: A Sam’s Club bag of codependency,

Lisa: Right. Right.

Gabe: But it’s not romantic in nature, is my point.

Lisa: No, it hasn’t been for a long time.

Gabe: It’s a 180.

Lisa: Is that true, is it a 180?

Gabe: I don’t know? What’s the opposite of marriage? 

Lisa: So well see exactly I don’t know that that is the opposite of marriage.

Gabe: It’s interesting, and I think this is where the maturity part of your quote comes in, a lot of people think that the opposite of a romantic relationship is a hate filled one.

Lisa: Exactly, which it is not.

Gabe: It’s certainly not in our case. I think the opposite of a romantic relationship is probably nothing.

Lisa: Well, yeah, exactly the opposite of love is not hate, it’s apathy.

Gabe: Well, I don’t even think it’s apathy, I think it’s non-existent, I think it’s oh, yeah, I remember dating him.

Lisa: Like I said, apathy. That’s what apathy is,

Gabe: Is that apathy?

Lisa: I think so, yeah.

Gabe: It’s just, it’s just nothing.

Lisa: And we’ve talked about this before, the oh, you know, the opposite of love is hate. No, it’s not. You used to love your ex-husband. Now you hate him. No, that’s still that strong emotion. That’s not good.

Gabe: I agree with that, and but whatever the opposite of a marriage or romance or love or romantic love is, it’s not best friends forever.

Lisa: Probably not, no.

Gabe: Do you know anybody else, literally anybody else that is best friends with their spouse?

Lisa: No.

Gabe: Lisa, obviously, I think everybody is aware of exes who are not enemies. I think that everybody is aware of exes who get along. Co parent, for example, there’s a lot of divorced couples who raise children together. They maintain a semblance of a relationship. But that’s not our relationship.

Lisa: No, and we get comments on that all the time,

Gabe: Constantly

Lisa: All the time,

Gabe: Constantly.

Lisa: It’s interesting.

Gabe: Yes.

Lisa: Usually negative, but sometimes positive.

Gabe: Can you believe that, I mean, what? What a crazy world do we live in where somebody’s like, oh, Lisa’s your ex-wife? Yes. And you don’t hate her and want her to die? No, I think very highly of her. Oh, what’s wrong with you?

Lisa: I know it’s a little bit creepy.

Gabe: They’re like angry at me, they think I’ve done something wrong. I don’t know about Viroj, but Kendall, my wife, gets pulled aside all the time. It’s like you can’t tell me there’s not something going on there.

Lisa: Yeah, it doesn’t happen as much for Viroj because it’s a genderized thing,

Gabe: Yeah.

Lisa: But yeah, it’s a thing.

Gabe: You know what I love about that happening? It’s Kendall’s response.

Lisa: Oh, what is it?

Gabe: Yeah, she says well, if Gabe and Lisa run off together, that’s the punishment they deserve

Lisa: Yeah,

Gabe: Because I’d kill you

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: Easily. We just we would kill each other within a month of us running away. One of us would try to take out the other. Would be we’d both be in prison, like, could you imagine the fight? It always makes me laugh when she says that because I do think she’s right. We are on the right level. If you and I, for whatever reason, tried to get married again, this I want to be very, very clear. This is very hypothetical. Nobody is discussing this.

Lisa: That’s not happening, yeah.

Gabe: But it would be a train wreck, we would both be miserable and it would cost us the good thing that we have. I think that’s what a lot of people don’t understand. They’re like, why are you friends with your ex? And the answer is because we never should have gotten married. We overshot. 

Lisa: More than anything else, we’re usually mistaken for siblings.

Gabe: Yes, which is creepy because, of course, we have this romantic past, right?

Lisa: Right, right.

Gabe: That clearly people can recognize that we have a close relationship. And they don’t want to just say, oh, well, these two are friends or coworkers, et cetera, because they feel that it’s another step. But whenever we correct them and say, yes, you are right, you have picked up. We are very, very close. Lisa used to be my ex-wife. We’re now just best friends. That’s where the questions come in. Now,

Lisa: Yeah, that confuses people.

Gabe: We’ve already discussed the negatives. The negatives are a bummer. I’m sorry that people react that way, but we get a lot of people who are naturally curious. They’re like, well, how did you do it?

Lisa: I also get a lot of people who it’s almost a confessional. Where they’ll go, well, you know, I’m actually friends with my ex, too, but they take you aside and tell you it like it’s a secret. They don’t just say it like, oh, yeah. Oh, that’s interesting. You know, or even. Oh, that’s unusual. You know, my ex-husband and I are very you know, they’re like, well, you know, or the number one thing that happens is people will tell me, well, you know, I guess that makes sense after all. I know so and so. And even after they were divorced, she helped him through cancer. It’s always that way. It’s always she helped him. And it’s always cancer. It’s never a man helping a woman do something. It’s always a woman helping a man through cancer. That is the number one thing people say to me. It’s weird. So just letting you know you’re about to get cancer.

Gabe: I’ve, great. Great.

Lisa: I’m just telling you.

Gabe: I like, I don’t have enough problems, I, 

Lisa: Number one thing is. Oh, yes, I knew a couple who cared for him through cancer and number two thing is, oh, I also share this deep secret. Let me share it with you now.

Gabe: It really is reminiscent of when I give a speech, and then when I get off the stage, people pull me aside and they say, you know, I have bipolar too, or I have mental illness as well. And they want to tell me their story.

Lisa: Right, yes, it reminds me of that exactly. Because they feel like only you can understand, because they feel the story is so incredibly unique that they can’t just share it on a regular day to day basis that they found this kindred spirit.

Gabe: Agreed, agreed with all of that, but I still feel like you’re kind of ditching the question, Lisa. How did we get here?

Lisa: You know, I’ve been trying to think about that.

Gabe: How did we go from a married couple to a divorced couple to BFFs? That is a weird journey.

Lisa: I don’t think it is that weird, part of it is on TV, people have been married for years and they get a divorce and then they never speak to each other again. In real life, you don’t just cut off a long term relationship and have no contact forever. Your lives are intertwined with one another. You have the same friend group. Perhaps you work together, you have children, you own property together. You live in the same town. In real life it’s not that easy to just cut it off cold turkey.

Gabe: Ok, but it’s not that hard and look, we don’t have children and we did not have an intertwined friend group.

Lisa: We did live in the same town.

Gabe: Well, sure, a town with 1.2 million people. Did you think we were going to run into each other at the Tastee-Freez or the McDonald’s? You always say the McDonald’s in small towns. Did you think we were going to go get fish? I really feel bad now because all of our listeners in small towns are going to send us hate mail. I apologize.

Lisa: No, because they’ll know that I’m one of you and Gabe is city he doesn’t understand.

Gabe: That’s not true. I grew up in a small town in Pennsylvania.

Lisa: No, you didn’t You’re second generation city, anyway.

Gabe: That is, one that’s just offensive.

Lisa: It’s true.

Gabe: My graduating class had 29 kids. How many did your graduating class have? Miss you’re from a small town and I’m not.

Lisa: Gabe grew up in Columbus, but did move to a small town to finish high school.

Gabe: Yeah,

Lisa: I’m just saying.

Gabe: My mother was raised in that town where she got pregnant after a football game on Valentine’s Day in the backseat of a car. How much more small town country can you get than my conception? It was a Dodge Charger, people. It was so stereotypical back in 1996. I’m pretty sure that Foreigner was on the radio.

Lisa: You mean 1976.

Gabe: What did I say?

Lisa: 1996.

Gabe: I’m old, that’s

Lisa: Yeah,

Gabe: When I graduated high school.

Lisa: I know.

Gabe: In a small town

Lisa: Uh-huh.

Gabe: Where I lived.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah. First off, no, you’re city people, you’ve always been city people, we all know you’re city people. You do things like cross the street without looking both ways. It’s ridiculous. Also, you don’t check both ways before railroad tracks. Yes, it’s true. Sometimes Gabe drives directly over railroad tracks.  He calls pop soda. There you go, that’s all that needs to be said.

Gabe: Lisa.

Lisa: If he wants a Diet Coke, he says he’s going to go buy soda, not pop, soda. Yeah, city. City all the way. 

Gabe: I understand why you want to change the subject, because you’re uncomfortable to admit that you just have no idea, you’re uncomfortable to admit that this was an accident. Our salvaging the relationship, it was an accident. I think you’re very uncomfortable with that. I don’t think you like the idea,

Lisa: Why would I be uncomfortable with it?

Gabe: Because I’ve asked you now for the third time, how did we go from a married couple to BFFs?

Lisa: Oh, well, I was answering that.

Gabe: No, you weren’t. You said it’s not that unusual, it happens all the time. Really?

Lisa: No, no.

Gabe: Name one other person.

Lisa: What I said is that in real life, you can’t just cut off cold turkey because your lives are intertwined.

Gabe: But just because you can’t cut off cold turkey doesn’t mean that you become BFFs, everybody goes through the same divorce process.

Lisa: I’m getting there,

Gabe: Are you?

Lisa: Everybody does not go through the same divorce process. What makes you think that?

Gabe: Yes, some people have children.

Lisa: Exactly? Every situation is unique. Nobody goes through the same process.

Gabe: Making us even weirder, that binds them and they don’t become BFFs.

Lisa: I think part of it was, like I said, we did have intertwined lives, etc., and then the next thing would be, frankly, it’s because we kind of had to stay together because of the house and because of the health insurance. That gave us a window.

Gabe: On one hand, it gave us a window, but I don’t think that it did. I really don’t. A lot of people have houses to sell. A lot of people in America have health insurance issues with their divorcing spouses and they don’t become friends. I just.

Lisa: It gave us a longer period of time than it would have otherwise, and that gave us time for some of the hurt feelings to recede.

Gabe: That is what I keep trying to explain to you, though, that is not abnormal. This was not something that happened to us that doesn’t happen to other people yet. Our outcome is different. Every single divorcing couple in America has issues with selling the house, with splitting the money, with going through the court process, with health insurance. This is, you haven’t brought up anything that is uncommon or unusual for a divorcing couple in America, but their stories do not turn out with them being best friends. Their stories turn out very stereotypically with them becoming nothing, not enemies, just nothing. They just move on. For example, everything that you just listed happened between my first wife and I. We had health insurance problems. We had to sell our house. We had to go through the court process. How come we’re not best friends forever?

Lisa: Ok, how come? What’s the answer?

Gabe: Because we.

Lisa: You’re asking me how I think this happened, how do you? What do you think the answer is?

Gabe: I really do think that part of it was that we got married for the wrong reasons, yet the reason that we got married was a very compelling reason that is difficult to ignore. You saved my life. You literally saved my life. That really does create a bond.

Lisa: That’s why we got married?

Gabe: I think so, yeah. Don’t you?

Lisa: See, I never really thought of it that way until after we were divorced and then I started listening to your speeches and you started, not started, but you were saying that all the time. I was a little surprised by that. I never particularly saw it that way. And I was surprised at how much emphasis or value you put on that.

Gabe: My theory has always been that the reason that we got married is because we were bonded by this amazing thing. For good or bad, it was a very traumatizing thing. You know, it’s just it’s not every day that you find yourself a suicidal guy and, you know, help them.

Lisa: But that was a different experience for you than for me, though.

Gabe: Right, but it was still an experience that we uniquely shared together, just because we experienced it very differently doesn’t also mean that there wasn’t overlap that we experienced at the same time. I am sure that you felt very protective of me because you set yourself up as my protector.

Lisa: I did. I struggle to this day with that.

Gabe: Yeah, I felt very indebted to you because you protected me and I needed protecting. I didn’t know anything and you knew a lot. It is a different experience on both ends, but it’s still a bonding experience. And I mistook that as, oh, well, you can build a marriage on that. You can’t build a marriage on one singular event. A marriage is built on things like shared values, shared goals, the ability to tolerate each other in the same house. I just, you understand what I’m saying, right? The things that make a marriage successful are actually a lot more mundane.

Lisa: Yeah, one dramatic thing doesn’t do it.

Gabe: Well, right, and that’s all we had. I believe that the reason that we ended up together is because we thought that that one dramatic thing was enough to build a relationship. But more specifically, I believe that if that wouldn’t have happened, we would have dated. I would have thought that you were intelligent. You would have thought that I was funny. We would have had some conversations, but then we would have started to say this is the purpose of dating. We would have started to realize, oh, Gabe doesn’t want to travel the country. Gabe wants to own a house. Gabe spends money different than I do. Gabe really likes sports and I don’t like sports so much. And maybe we even would have gotten to the stage where we lived together, but then we would have realized that we value things. And I like to have a lot of people in my home. And you like to have nobody in your home.

Lisa: Right. That’s what your house is for.

Gabe: Right, these things would have started to butt up against each other and we would have made the very reasonable decision that, hey, we don’t have enough in common.

Lisa: We’re not compatible.

Gabe: Yeah, we’re not compatible and we would have broken up and, hey, maybe if we were in our right minds, you would have been a two, three year relationship and one that I remember fondly around the campfire.

Lisa: You’re going camping now?

Gabe: I don’t know. I go camping now. And I have no idea, it’s.

Lisa: You don’t go camping. I’m willing to bet you have never been camping.

Gabe: My point is, I think that if we wouldn’t have had this big, dramatic thing, we would have realized that we weren’t compatible and we would have broken up.

Lisa: So what you’re saying is that you think it was the drama. That we mistook those feelings for compatibility?

Gabe: Well, I also think that I was incredibly grateful. I mean, Lisa, what you did was amazing. Most people would not do what you did. This is the whole reason we became mental health advocates, because most people, upon meeting a clearly mentally ill man who is extraordinarily suicidal, who has all of these problems and whom they were only casually dating at best, and I say casually dating so that you come off like a lady.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah.

Gabe: You would have just walked away. You would have ghosted me, to keep the theme of millennial words and nobody would have blamed you. If you would have been sitting around your campfire and said, you know, I met this redhead guy like 20 years ago. Oh, well, what happened to him? He was crazy. He was nuts. I had to get away from him. You know, I heard he had bipolar disorder later. People would have been like, oh, thank God you escaped. You don’t want to get mixed up in that. Like, as you know and I’m not trying to call out your family here, but your mother was very disappointed in you. She thought it was a very bad idea. And I’d like to point out she was half right.

Lisa: Not exactly, but.

Gabe: Nothing’s exact. The point is, is your mother, she had serious reservations and in fact, would have preferred that you would have said, hey, you know, that guy that I’ve been dating for a couple of months? It turns out he has untreated bipolar disorder. So we broke up. That would have been a much better outcome for your parents. And again, I’d like to point out they’re not wrong.

Lisa: It was the number one advice that I received at the time, not just from them, from everyone.

Gabe: Don’t help the sick guy was the number one advice that you received at the time?

Lisa: No, no, no, that’s not what they’re saying. No, no one’s saying don’t help sick people. What they’re saying is don’t enmesh yourself with sick people, get out. In fact, I believe we had a whole episode about that. We’ve talked before about how if I said, hey, I met this guy and he has cancer, I’m leaving him people to be like, oh, my God, that’s terrible. What a bitch. But if you say, hey, I met this guy and he has bipolar disorder, I’m staying with him people will go, hmmm, what’s wrong with her? When it’s mental illness, people expect you to leave. And if you don’t, there’s something wrong with you. But if it’s any sort of physical problem, you’re evil if you leave.

Gabe: So tie that back, not only did you not leave, you married the guy and

Lisa: Yeah, yeah.

Gabe: When the marriage didn’t work out, you still didn’t leave. For real.

Lisa: I don’t have an answer for you. And I do not think that that’s the answer, but I don’t have a better one. And like I said, I never even thought that that was a component of it until after we were already divorced and you started talking about it. And we’ve talked about this many times over the years. It never occurred to me that we wouldn’t stay friends. And I don’t know why. I don’t have a good reason. It doesn’t even sound sensible when I say it. You always talk about, hey, I always figured eventually we’ll just lose contact with one another. I honestly never thought that. I never thought there was a future where we wouldn’t have contact and I’m not sure why.

Gabe: I’m going to go with because you’re an idiot, except that you were right.

Lisa: Did you really think that would happen? I mean, when I called, you answered, you called me, you continued to maintain contact. It’s not like you started slipping away and I was running after you. So how did you think this lack of contact was going to happen? Neither one of us was dropping off.

Gabe: There’s generally things that happen that start to diminish contact, right? Somebody starts dating somebody else, that relationship gets more serious. I genuinely thought that I would get a girlfriend and I was not going to tell my girlfriend that I’m still hanging out with my ex-wife because I thought that that was inappropriate to the girlfriend. Now, luckily, apparently, I’m not as good with women as I thought because it took a long time to get a girlfriend. And by the time I got a girlfriend, I had flipped. I had decided, no, Lisa has crossed the Rubicon. Lisa is now a friend, and whomever I date needs to understand that I am, in fact, friends with my ex-wife. But there is a period of time where if I would have gotten involved in a serious relationship, I would have stopped contacting you because of this concept of it’s inappropriate to be hanging out with your ex in your new relationship. I mean.

Lisa: We got that a lot at the time, I did not get that as much because, again, it’s a genderized thing, but the idea that when you start seeing someone else, you definitely need to cut off contact because it’s disrespectful to the other person. And in fact, the other person should be on guard because after all, you’re just waiting for this thing to happen.

Gabe: One of the things that helped this along is after we separated, after we got a divorce and I moved into the apartment, I wasn’t trying to be in a relationship. It was it was debauchery. And then I realized that going back to my old ways wasn’t healthy. But luckily, at this point, you know, I had a therapist, I had a psychiatrist, I had support groups. And I recognized that I was falling back on old patterns. Well, when I was single, before I did the following things and I’d started doing them again. So I worked with my therapist. My therapist said, look, you need to not date anybody. You’re doing it wrong. You’re running out and dating people and then deciding if you want to be with them. Why don’t you decide who you want first? What are your values? What are you looking for? What are you hoping for? What’s a pro and con list? What type of person are you looking for?

Lisa: So you’re saying that previously you’d meet someone and then be like, OK, are they good, yes or no, whereas instead you should get some criteria in advance and go out and find a person who meets them?

Gabe: Yes, and that journey took a long time and it took me the better part of a year to figure out just what kind of person I wanted to be married to.

Lisa: Or date?

Gabe: Anything. This was the first time in my life that I actually really thought about it. And during that time, you and I were running a mental health walk because you continued to volunteer for the charity that I was working for, shrewd, by the way. And that made you one.

Lisa: Oh, yeah, that’s why I did it.

Gabe: That put us in close proximity. And you always showed up at all of the volunteer meetings and all of the events. You took on projects and completed them extraordinarily well, I might add.

Lisa: But you realize that that wasn’t accidental, that was part of the protective thing because and we talked about this, I was pretty sure you were going to crash and burn. I was pretty sure you were not going to make it. What am I saying? Pretty sure I was positive. I was positive you were going to burn when you said, hey, I’m having trouble with this charity. I’m having trouble at my job, I’m having trouble with the walk. I was like, OK, well, clearly he needs me to save that. I clearly need to go protect him on this one.

Gabe: You recognize that it was the normal amount of trouble that all fundraisers and marketing directors and development directors have, which is I need more people, I need more money.

Lisa: Probably.

Gabe: I wasn’t I wasn’t having some sort of, like, mental health crisis. I was I needed to hit my numbers and my people and get the word out. And you were an excellent volunteer and your loss was, your loss was felt.

Lisa: Well, but nobody knew that. You did not realize that these were the normal growing pains that anyone in that job would have, and neither did I.

Gabe: It’s really irrelevant, it just it allowed us to do this thing, I look at that fundraiser as the first thing that we did as friends.

Lisa: Yeah, I would agree with that.

Gabe: Look like significant thing, I mean, I recognize that, you know, we went to see Star Wars Symphony as friends, I you know, we had lunch as friends, I recognize that we watched, you know, reality TV and made pasta as friends. I get it. Those are simple, stupid, easy things. The first big thing that we did as Gabe and Lisa friends was run that fundraiser.

Lisa: Well, it was also the first big project we ever took on together, period. We don’t have children. This was it. I mean, I suppose we bought the house, but I did most of the work on that.

Gabe: It’s fascinating to hear you say that, because I think the first big project that we took on together was beating bipolar disorder.

Lisa: Yes.

Gabe: You’ve given that nothing. It took four years.

Lisa: Well, I mean, I guess in some ways I saw this as a continuation of this because this was you going out and getting a job and existing in the world and you know what I mean?

Gabe: That’s all fine and well, dear Lisa, the point that I’m making is, is that that gave us something to build off of. I didn’t think that Gabe and Lisa were capable of doing anything positive, like hard stop. We got divorced for a reason.

Lisa: Well, but by your logic, we’d just beaten bipolar disorder, that’s pretty positive.

Gabe: Yeah, it was great, and then since that was no longer around, there was no reason for us to be friends.

Lisa: Because you felt like the big project was over, so now we could just.

Gabe: Yeah, it was amazing.

Lisa: I can’t explain it, I didn’t feel that way. Looking back on it, I do see this as a project we did together, I guess, but I didn’t see it at the time. As we were immersed in it, I didn’t see it that way.

Gabe: The reality is, is I just thought it was over. Gabe and Lisa did something together that was amazing. And then we did something together that was not amazing. And that was our marriage. It had a lot of problems. It had some good parts. I don’t want you to hear that I never had any good memories, but the marriage failed. So now it’s like one and one. So I really saw that fundraiser as the tiebreaker. And the fact that it went so well together showed me that, hey, maybe Gabe and Lisa still have some juice left. Maybe we still have the ability to do good things together. And because it was so successful, I was willing to try something else. And ironically, it was the next year’s fundraiser that we did together. And then then we moved on to, you know, starting my public speaking career.

Lisa: The third year’s fundraiser. Yeah.

Gabe: And, yeah, the third year fundraiser, my public speaking career. And we worked on the podcast together. You’ve been producing them for years now. Now you’re in front of the mic. I just all of those successes built to here. But it really started with that one. And when people say, how did you become friends, I think the answer to that question is we started from scratch. I understand that we had history and it’s not completely possible to start from scratch. But we had a friendship that turned into a marriage that failed. And then we started over and that succeeded.

Lisa: And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

Announcer: Interested in learning about psychology and mental health from experts in the field? Give a listen to the Psych Central Podcast, hosted by Gabe Howard. Visit PsychCentral.com/Show or subscribe to The Psych Central Podcast on your favorite podcast player.

Announcer: This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.com. Secure, convenient, and affordable online counseling. Our counselors are licensed, accredited professionals. Anything you share is confidential. Schedule secure video or phone sessions, plus chat and text with your therapist whenever you feel it’s needed. A month of online therapy often costs less than a single traditional face to face session. Go to BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral and experience seven days of free therapy to see if online counseling is right for you. BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral.

Gabe: And we’re back telling the Gabe and Lisa origin story.

Lisa: So you’re saying that you were actually making these conscious decisions of, hey, let’s start this new project together, see what happens, and then when that project was successful, you’re like, oh, that went well, let’s do another project? You were actually thinking of it in that way?

Gabe: In a manner of speaking, when you showed up to volunteer for that fundraiser after our divorce, I was not comfortable with that. And if you recall.

Lisa: You asked me. 

Gabe: Nope.

Lisa: Yes, I was positive your life was going to fall apart, and then you said to me, hey, my life is, in fact falling apart, I’m going to lose my job because terrible shit is happening with the walk. I’m desperate help. And I said, OK. And I swooped in and helped. That’s how I remember it.

Gabe: That is

Lisa: Is that not what happened?

Gabe: I think that the answer is in the middle. I don’t think that you have completely made this up out of whole cloth.

Lisa: You didn’t say, I need you to do this, you just said, hey, this is in trouble. And I thought to myself, I can help with this trouble.

Gabe: I think we’re both telling the same story, you’re just putting the emphasis on the wrong point, you believe that you came in and saved my ass, whereas I believe that you stuck around and were very helpful.

Lisa: Well, same diff.

Gabe: Well, it’s about I mean, it’s not the same diff, but I can see how you can get there.

Lisa: One, anyone, you just needed a warm body, but you didn’t have one, right? It wasn’t special to me. You just needed somebody to step up and nobody was. It could have been anybody, but it wasn’t. It was me. I don’t know that you asked me to do it, but you specifically said you were having this problem, and I volunteered.

Gabe: Once again, I can see how you can get there from there, but I don’t think that that is accurate.

Lisa: Ok, so what do you think happened?

Gabe: I think that you stayed a volunteer, and even though I was uncomfortable with it because of everything that was going on, I was not in a position to let you leave. Lisa, obviously, things are sort of hindsight is not, in fact, 20/20, because memories fade and you forget different things. But at the time I needed you, I needed high quality, good volunteers. And you and I had volunteered for this organization before I worked there.

Lisa: We had volunteered together for years, and then you got a paying job.

Gabe: Yes, frankly, I was not in a position to let you go because I did, in fact, want and need your help, the organization wanted and needed your help. And plus, remember what you said about, you know, having like friends in common. That organization was probably the only thing we had in common at the time of our separation as far as people were concerned.

Lisa: Yeah, but they very much saw us as a unit there.

Gabe: They really did, and ironically, they saw us as a unit forever. I still think they

Lisa: Yeah,

Gabe: See us as a unit.

Lisa: Well, because we had always volunteered together. In the past, we had always volunteered together as a unit, then you got a paying job. And so I think people just expected me to still be around, in part because most of them didn’t realize that we had separated or that we were divorcing.

Gabe: You were like the first lady.

Lisa: People did not necessarily know that we were no longer together. We’re not airing all of our business.

Gabe: It really was irrelevant, the point that I’m making is you asked me if I did it on purpose, like if it was some sort of litmus test, like if I was like, well, I’m going to let her stick around. And if it works out, I’ll stay friends with her. And the answer to that is no. I didn’t really consider whether or not you could stick around because I knew how vital you were to the organization. Number one, I knew how much I needed your help because you were an excellent, excellent volunteer. And also I felt like I did not have the authority in the world to tell you that you were not allowed to be involved in an organization that we started out together. It was true that by now I was an employee and you were still a volunteer. But we found this organization together. The same day that I volunteered for this organization was the same day that you volunteered for this organization. And all of that coalesced into we ran that event together. We just did. And that was a very positive thing. I remember the day of the walk. I remember us walking around, tearing down the signs. And I remember probably for the first time since the divorce, unencumbered, positive feelings about you that wasn’t bogged down in well, but. Well, but, you know, she did it was just a purely positive thing. And I thought, well, I wouldn’t mind having more of these. But there was a lot of people in my life who were telling me that this was proof that I wasn’t moving forward or that it wasn’t mentally health or that it wasn’t good for me. I don’t know what made me ignore all of these people, probably because, quite frankly, they all sucked at relationships, too, so.

Lisa: Did you actively think to yourself that you wished that I wasn’t there? Because I never got that vibe?

Gabe: This is hard. There’s a part of me that wants to say, yeah, it would have been easier if you were just gone.

Lisa: It never even occurred to me.

Gabe: That’s because it wasn’t, it wasn’t an option as far as I was concerned. I felt that it was our organization, so I had no right to keep you away from it. So therefore, I never, ever considered it. But if you’re asking me if I thought it would be easier not to see my ex, yeah, I thought that would be easier. And if you would have disappeared, I wouldn’t have been given all the shit from my friends and family about how I wasn’t moving forward and how I was hanging onto the past. And we did sometimes fight about stuff. Never while we were volunteering. But remember, one day I came over, you were living in the house. I had moved to an apartment and we were working on something at the kitchen table. And I was like, Oh, I want to take that back to my apartment. And you said, stop shopping at my house. This is

Lisa: Yes.

Gabe: My house. You don’t get to walk around and shop here. All right? This isn’t a Wal-Mart. You don’t pick something that you need at your apartment and pick it up off the shelf and take it home. It’s my house.

Lisa: I do not remember that, but sounds like something I would say, yeah.

Gabe: By way of you still being around, that caused a quote unquote, fight I.

Lisa: It just never occurred to me to stop volunteering there. It was something I had done, we had done for years. We’ve been going there for a long time, and at the time it was a large part of my social outlet. You know, we knew all these people. We were friends with them. It never occurred to me to stop. I never got the impression that you wanted me to stop or that you expected me to stop or that you thought I should.

Gabe: It was more complex than that, and that’s what I’m trying to explain. The reality is, you know, spoiler alert, everybody. The reason that Lisa and I are still friends is because of luck. There was obviously a bond there. We obviously have a lot in common. We think highly of one another. We enjoy each other’s company. All those things are obviously true. But if you’re in the middle of leaving your romantic partner, whether through a divorce or a breakup and you’re trying to figure out how to become BFFs, it’s just all random. What happened for Lisa and I is that we started to build new memories and we started to build a friendship. And basically we just erased the past. And even that’s a lie, because to this very day, 15, 16, 17 years later, Lisa and I will still get in a fight which ends with her accusing me of stealing her youth.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah.

Gabe: So we’re not even over all of the trauma from that. I don’t know how we manage it. The only reason that we’re covering it is to get people to stop emailing us and asking

Lisa: We get that question a lot.

Gabe: I. Lisa, you apparently don’t know the answer any more. Why are we friends?

Lisa: You know, I frequently do not tell people the back story of our relationship, or maybe I tell them that we’re childhood friends or something like that.

Gabe: Oh, that’s a good one. I’ve never used that one.

Lisa: Yeah, well, it works out well because, again, people have the brother sister thing, you know, are you two related? Are you two brother and sister? Oh, we grew up on the same street or some shit. I don’t know. We’re childhood friends, people, accept that because then a woman and a man can be friends if they were childhood friends and never became romantic

Gabe: Right.

Lisa: Because it’s just too exhausting to have to explain. The questions are always the same. It gets boring. It’s just annoying to me. It’s tiresome.

Gabe: I think you just have to be open to the possibility, right? Really, that’s the only real advice that we can pass along, right, Lisa?

Lisa: I’m sorry, I’m still stuck on the whole, did you not want me there, did you want me to stop volunteering? Had you said to yourself, gee, I hope that she stops.

Gabe: I never thought that, but it would have been easier. You represented failure, you were an example of failure in my life. You were my second divorce. You were costing me money. And I would like to point out that you told me in pretty much as many words as you could come up with that I was going to fail and be home any day now.

Lisa: Yeah, that’s what I thought.

Gabe: Well, so why would I want you around?

Lisa: You have had periods where you’re very erratic, right? So for many months after you left, I saw this as more of you being erratic and I thought, well, this is his way. Today he’s a vegetarian. Tomorrow he decides to join. Who knows? Right.

Gabe: Don’t forget, I was a vegan for a day.

Lisa: I know you were a vegan for a day.

Gabe: I really like cheese.

Lisa: You were always taking on these projects that you discarded within hours or days or weeks. I thought, OK, this is one more, and he’s going to basically come to his senses any moment now and we’ll get back to our regular lives. For many months after you left, I just kept expecting you to get over it and just we would go back to normal life.

Gabe: And I think this is problematic and trying to explain to this, because I think what a normal person would hear is, oh, the reason they’re friends is because Gabe left, but Lisa continued to pine after him.

Lisa: Right, and tried to get back together.

Gabe: And that’s not true.

Lisa: It’s hard to explain, it’s not exactly true, but it’s not false either. There was some part of I was expecting you to come home. I still thought of it as you being not at home. And at a certain point, that did change, obviously, and I’m not really sure when.

Gabe: Well, it changed after I came home, you do recognize that, right? Lisa and I had a two month blip where we decided, you know what, we’re going to work it out.

Lisa: Well, like a lot of long term couples who separate, we did go back and forth for a while.

Gabe: That’s what you’re going with, we went back and forth? Like a lot of long term couples who separate, Gabe moved back in for two months and Lisa kicked his ass out, realizing that, oh, my God, life with him is so much better when he lives across town.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Gabe: I only bring this up because.

Lisa: Yeah, not before you had to buy a second vacuum cleaner, though.

Gabe: I did have to buy a second vacuum.

Lisa: I’m sorry, I didn’t think we needed two it was weird.

Gabe: You made me give a vacuum cleaner away and then two months later, I had to buy another one that you never paid me. You know what else I gave away? A television. That’s actually what pissed me off more than the vacuum cleaner.

Lisa: I could see that, yeah. Yeah.

Gabe: Yeah, and a mattress I had to buy a new mattress.

Lisa: The really amusing part was the way that your friends who had helped you move back and forth like three times were like, so you’re moving out again, huh?

Gabe: Remember what he told me,

Lisa: What?

Gabe: This is it. Doesn’t she have friends? Have her friends carry just now? We’re done. I bring that up because it further muddies the waters. Right.

Lisa: Yeah, it does, it does, you’re right.

Gabe: We actually made yet another mistake, we’re like, oh, my God, we’re getting along, we’re doing so well.

Lisa: Yes, actually, yeah, that’s what happened, we weren’t fighting, there wasn’t all the anger anymore, let’s go. You know, we can make this work. Look at how good things are together. There was all this bad stuff that was happening before. It’s not happening now. I still love you. We can make this work. Let’s get back together. Let’s move back in together.

Gabe: Yep, all of it came back.

Lisa: Yes, it sure did. Relatively quickly.

Gabe: Yeah, almost instantly,

Lisa: Yeah, yeah, pretty much, yeah,

Gabe: Yeah, I blame you.

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: You stole my Christmas, that’s what made it even worse, we got back together like in October and we split up in January. So

Lisa: Yeah, yeah.

Gabe: We just totally wrecked a holiday season because, well, frankly, we’re a couple of idiots.

Lisa: But on the one hand, I would say, well, we shouldn’t have done that, we shouldn’t have moved back in together, but or should we have?

Gabe: Now, we know. We do know we always should have been friends, and I point out to people all the time that had Lisa done what she did for me when I was sick, taken me to the hospital, explained mental illness and suicidality to me, helped me get diagnosed. And Lisa was a man. I would describe her as my brother. She’s my family. She’s my best friend, this man. Oh, what he did for me is amazing. But because Lisa was a woman and I had all of these feelings, I mistook them for the types of feelings that you have toward.

Lisa: A romantic partner.

Gabe: A romantic partner, but good life partners, you have a lot of boring shit in common, you both like the same foods, you both like to go to bed at the same time, you like the same kind of mattress. You both want to live in the same neighborhood. You both want to manage money the same way you both celebrate the holidays, the same way you have. You have stereotypical values. And just on and on and on, I just listen, don’t send us an email and say, well, I’m the complete opposite of my husband. We’ve been married for 45 years. Oh, yeah. Me and my wife have never been the same. And we’ve been married for 68 years. Yeah, I get it. But in general, the things that glue a relationship, they’re not the kind of things that they’re ever going to make a movie or write a book about

Lisa: Those are boring.

Gabe: Because they’re boring as hell. Lisa, we were never boring.

Lisa: There was a lot of drama, I did not see how sick that was at the time.

Gabe: I didn’t either. Now I come home and the world is quiet and I do miss some of that, you know, I there’s a reason that Gabe Howard hosts all of his friends and family. It’s Gabe and Kendall that host everything. We love this chaos. Lisa, I don’t believe that you’ve ever hosted a party at your house because you don’t enjoy it. You’d rather come to my house. And so you can see where this would be a problem if we were married because I wanted to host those events

Lisa: Yes, you did.

Gabe: And you did not like it.

Lisa: You realize there’s more to that story. Yes, you wanted to host the events, but you didn’t want to do any of the work, you just wanted it to happen magically.

Gabe: And the fighting continues years after the divorce.

Lisa: Who ended up having to do all the preparation and do all the cleaning and having to make all the food and who had to do all those things, Gabe? You’re right. I’m totally over it now. It’s ridiculous to still be bitter about this so many years later.

Gabe: I have no idea if that is relevant or not, but.

Lisa: It’s totally relevant.

Gabe: So you’re telling me that if I would have done all the work, you would have wanted 20 people in your house?

Lisa: Ok, excellent point, never mind. Point, Gabe.

Gabe: That’s where we never got past I have no idea if Lisa did all of the work for the party or if she’s misremembering or if she did too much work or if the answer is she wanted to do zero. And the fact that she did 10 percent was too much because 20 people were in her house and she didn’t like that. I don’t know. Even Lisa will admit that any of those things are possibilities.

Lisa: That is true. These are good points.

Gabe: But at its core, Lisa doesn’t want 20 people in her house. Lisa has a four bedroom house, zero guest rooms. I have a three bedroom house, two guest rooms.

Lisa: He does it’s weird, and sometimes there’s actually people in both of the rooms. What is that even about?

Gabe: And here’s the thing, neither one of us were wrong. I spent a lot of our marriage thinking that you were wrong for not wanting 20 people in your house.

Lisa: I did too.

Gabe: That’s why we weren’t compatible. And those are the things that we didn’t figure out. We don’t have this problem BFF wise. Lisa loves that I want to host all the parties.

Lisa: They’re good parties.

Gabe: Yeah. Lisa wants to watch the Super Bowl. She wants to watch the ball drop. She wants to bring deviled eggs and cheese dip somewhere. She just doesn’t want it to be at her house. And I want it to be mine, Lisa. And I want to stay up and argue about this mundane nonsense for six hours. And after that esoteric argument, Lisa wants to retreat to her own house. That’s what we were missing.

Lisa: I’m not as sociable as you, I never have been.

Gabe: It’s not the discussion that Lisa didn’t like, it was the inability to get away from it.

Lisa: You’re very high energy and it’s exhausting,

Gabe: Yeah, but.

Lisa: But it’s awesome in small doses.

Gabe: Exactly, and having somebody that thinks that it’s awesome in small doses is awesome in small doses, these are all the things that Lisa built our friendship on. That’s really the only advice that we can offer. Right. If you want to be friends with your romantic, your ex boyfriend, girlfriend, your ex spouse, whatever, you’re going to have to start from scratch. You’re going to have to draw a line in the sand and make all of your data points what happens forward. That’s what Lisa and I did. And again, even that’s not perfect. She’s still mad at me about a party that she had to cook for 15 years ago. What nonsense is that? Get over it. Let it go.

Lisa: I hold a grudge, I nurture my grudges like children.

Gabe: It’s good that you don’t have any children or pets.

Lisa: Well, Viroj is allergic, we’d have pets if it weren’t for that,

Gabe: You have plants.

Lisa: I do have the plants, I do have the plants. You always hated my plants. There you go. There was a fatal flaw.

Gabe: Viroj hates your plants.

Lisa: Well, he doesn’t hate them as much as you

Gabe: Yes, he does, he hates the more

Lisa: Possibly.

Gabe: I’m willing to carry them, that’s what I don’t get. Your current husband is unwilling to help you with the plants, but me, your ex-husband drives 45 minutes across town to help you with your plants that you just said I hate. Maybe you are misremembering.

Lisa: That is a good point, you did help the last time with the plants, yes, they have to be moved twice a year

Gabe: You’re welcome.

Lisa: And I can’t move them myself anymore. They’ve gotten too big.

Gabe: You know what you stole from me recently? A back that doesn’t hurt. That plant was easily 400 pounds. There’s no doubt in my mind that’s a 400 pound plant.

Lisa: I bought the special lift-y things, I didn’t just ask you to, like, haul it up there, I bought equipment for this purpose.

Gabe: You bought a made for TV moving kit.

Lisa: It works,

Gabe: No, it doesn’t.

Lisa: It worked, the fore arm forklift, people, it works, sort of

Gabe: My back still hurts.

Lisa: Really?

Gabe: Yes.

Lisa: Oh, I’m sorry.

Gabe: You stole my youth.

Lisa: I did some sort of permanent damage to my shoulder last time. Next year, we’re hiring movers.

Gabe: These plants are awesome. Lisa, I always enjoy hanging out with you. You feel that our friendship is better than our marriage, right?

Lisa: Oh, yeah, are you kidding? Well, you know, again, I’m always uncomfortable saying that we had a bad marriage, but we were certainly very unhappy.

Gabe: We were unhappy and it ended in divorce, but you’re uncomfortable calling that bad

Lisa: I know I don’t.

Gabe: If that’s not bad. What would you define as good?

Lisa: Oh, good answer, Gabe, good answer, I don’t know, I don’t have good answers for these things. I just it has always made me uncomfortable when someone says specifically you when you say we had a bad marriage and I don’t really have a good reason for why that is because obviously we had a bad marriage or we’d still be married. Those words have always made me uncomfortable. I’m not sure why.

Gabe: Well, Lisa, I don’t know how it happened, but I am absolutely glad that we remain BFFs.

Lisa: Me, too, of course.

Gabe: Thank you for being a friend, you travel down the road and back again in your car because we don’t walk. 

Lisa: [Laughter]

Gabe: Listen up, everybody. My name is Gabe Howard and I am the author of Mental Illness Is an Asshole and Other Observations, which, of course, you can get on Amazon.com. But if you want to save money, if you want me to sign it, if you want free swag, if you want Not Crazy podcast stickers, please head over to gabehoward.com/merchandise and buy it there.

Lisa: And we’ll be back next Tuesday.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Not Crazy Podcast from Psych Central. For free mental health resources and online support groups, visit PsychCentral.com. Not Crazy’s official website is PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy. To work with Gabe, go to gabehoward.com. Want to see Gabe and me in person?  Not Crazy travels well. Have us record an episode live at your next event. E-mail show@psychcentral.com for details. 

 The post Podcast: From Divorce to Besties first appeared on World of Psychology.

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Podcast: Loneliness and Litigation: A Lawyer’s Case Study

Chronic loneliness is on the rise. But how can this be when we’re more connected now than ever? In today’s show, Dr. J.W. Freiberg, a social psychologist-turned-lawyer, explains that loneliness is not an emotion like happiness or anger. It’s a sensation like hunger or thirst. 

Join us for an in-depth discussion on the cost of feeling disconnected even when we’re surrounded by people.

SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW

  Guest information for ‘Loneliness’ Podcast Episode

J.W. Freiberg studies chronic loneliness through the unique lens of a social psychologist (PhD, UCLA) turned lawyer (JD, Harvard). A former assistant professor of social psychology at Boston University, he served for decades as general counsel to more than a dozen Boston social service agencies, adoption agencies, and scores of private mental health practices. In his new book, Surrounded by Others and Yet So Alone: A Lawyer’s Case Stories of Love, Loneliness, and Litigation, Dr. Freiberg shares case studies mined from his law practice to illustrate dysfunctional bonds that can lead to chronic loneliness. In the book’s award-winning prequel, Four Seasons of Loneliness, he explored chronic loneliness resulting from isolation and disconnection. For more information about all of his books, visit www.thelonelinessbooks.com. 

  About The Psych Central Podcast Host

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author. To learn more about Gabe, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

        Computer Generated Transcript for ‘Loneliness’ Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: You’re listening to the Psych Central Podcast, where guest experts in the field of psychology and mental health share thought-provoking information using plain, everyday language. Here’s your host, Gabe Howard.

Gabe Howard: Hey, everyone, and welcome to this week’s episode of The Psych Central Podcast, I’m your host Gabe Howard and calling into the show today, we have J.W. Freiberg. Dr. Freiberg studies chronic loneliness through the unique lens of a social psychologist turned lawyer. In his new book, Surrounded by Others and Yet So Alone: A Lawyer’s Case Stories of Love, Loneliness, and Litigation, Dr. Freiberg shares case studies mined from his law practice to illustrate dysfunctional bonds that can lead to chronic loneliness. Dr. Freiberg, welcome to the show. 

W. Freiberg: Thank you so very much.

Gabe Howard: You know, Dr. Freiberg, we are here to discuss loneliness and I promise we’re going to get to that. But I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask your thoughts on the differences between being a social psychologist and a lawyer. What’s that like?

W. Freiberg: Well, it proved interesting for me. I became a social psychologist first and I was a professor for a decade at Boston University, and then I had a chance to go across the river and go to Harvard Law School. So I wasn’t going to turn that down. I became a lawyer, and then it pretty quickly became clear that criss crossing the two expertises gave me a field of work that was unlike anybody else. No one else in Boston had both degrees. And that pretty quickly became what was sort of called around town, the psych lawyer, Boston’s psych lawyer. So institutions and agencies that had anything to do with psychiatry or psychology or clinical social work asked me to be their general counsel. And it was in the context of being general counsel that I heard about so many clinical cases, and that became the material for my research.

Gabe Howard: You define loneliness differently from others. Can you tell us about that?

W. Freiberg: Indeed, what I felt I discovered over thirty-five years of being counsel to a great percentage of Boston psychiatrists, psychologists and clinical social workers was that they kept reporting more and more loneliness. Sure, their clients had other issues as well, but the clients kept talking about being enormously disconnected from others, not having anybody to live with, anybody in their life, nobody to call. More and more as the years went by, loneliness became ever more present. So I started to think about this topic, and the more I researched it, it struck me that loneliness is not an emotion like anger or happiness. It’s a sensation like hunger or thirst. So just as our body tells us we’re hungry or thirsty, it also says, Oh, I feel really lonely and disconnected.

Gabe Howard: After hearing that definition, it makes a little more sense, this next statement, because you consider chronic loneliness a public health crisis of the first order.

W. Freiberg: The surgeon general of the United States, Vivek Murthy, the 19th surgeon general, about a decade ago, said, we are actually experiencing an epidemic of loneliness. About 35% percent of the American population in 2010 reported feeling chronically lonely. And what I mean by that, we all feel lonely from time to time. How could we not? But that’s not like being chronically lonely, just like being sad is not like being clinically depressed. There’s a huge difference. Chronic loneliness is in the land in the last 50 years ever more so, and it correlates with much worse health and much shorter lifespan. So it’s serious.

Gabe Howard: It sounds very serious, but one of the things that I keep thinking about is people are enmeshed around other people. I mean, we have social media. So even when you’re at home, you’re around other people. We work in offices now. I know COVID has changed that a little bit, but I just I’m trying to think of the last time that I was truly alone and I can’t come up with it. Even as I sit here interviewing you, my phone will ding. I’m never not surrounded by people. I guess my question is how can people still feel so lonely, given how connected our world is?

W. Freiberg: Well, that’s the key question, because there are two pathways to loneliness, one pathway is being all alone, being isolated, being disconnected, but a different pathway is being surrounded by people, just as you described, but not benefiting from those relationships, not feeling nourished, not feeling nurtured, not feeling soothed. Sometimes people are objectively lonely because they’re all divorced off from anybody. They don’t have anybody in their lives. But just as many people become chronically lonely, surrounded by others, but in an unfulfilling way.

Gabe Howard: There’s a quote that I use to describe living with bipolar disorder, which is alone in a crowded room, and, you know, I just say I’m surrounded by people, but I feel utterly alone. And for the purposes of my analogy, I’m talking about, like, you know, what it’s like to, you know, have this misunderstood illness. And, you know, it’s like all these people are in my life. But are they? And people have a hard time understanding that. And it handcuffs people a lot. They’re like, well, you can’t be alone in a crowded room. And I’m like, no, no, no. It actually makes sense. If you think about it. It’s just we need to do more on loneliness, because I, I do think that a high up reason for suicide is hopelessness. And one of the things that drive hopelessness is this idea that you’re all alone in the world and that nobody will miss you

W. Freiberg: Yeah exactly.

Gabe Howard: You want the pain to stop and nobody’s going to miss you. So I think loneliness is a huge issue that people just chalk up to personality. Well, go make some friends. That’s what I hear all the time. Go make some friends. Join a club.

W. Freiberg: No, you’re exactly right, because we have some powerful research on suicide attempts in the United States, I forget the percentage, but it was getting near two thirds of people who attempt suicide succeed in the sense that they were only attempting suicide, didn’t want to kill themselves. They wanted attention to their issues.

Gabe Howard: Right.

W. Freiberg: And when we asked people who attempted suicide, what’s up? When we try to learn from that subgroup of people, they have exactly what you described, one or several key relationships that they just couldn’t do that to. But what they were really doing is crying out for help. Their choice of language is a little drastic and dangerous. So what you said is absolutely correct. And by the way, when we study chronically lonely people, and we have some very powerful tests that we can use to test loneliness. If anyone listening is interested in how their own relationships are doing, I have these tests on my website, my website called TheLonelinessBooks.com or my name, JWFreiberg.com, that’ll take you there. You can test to see how your relationships are, whether they help you feel safe and nurtured and soothed or not. You can really see about how the quality of your connectivity to others in general. And then you can work right through each of your major relationships and see how they’re doing and where you could improve them. But when you use those tests on people who are chronically lonely, what we learn is about, you know, magnitude, something like half of chronically lonely people are from objectively disconnected backgrounds. They really don’t have anybody in their lives. And the other half are people who are surrounded by others. But subjectively, they feel completely alone.

Gabe Howard: Speaking of research, you have five main modes of disconnection that you identify in your book. Can you tell us about those?

W. Freiberg: Sure, so when I looked at more cases, I literally took the files out of the cabinet, I had about fourteen hundred files from different relevant law cases and I started piling those that had to do with loneliness. And there were sort of five patterns that stood out. One was obstructed connections. Sometimes people are just too busy to relate to one another. The constant phone calls, late nights at the offices, doing a thousand things at once kind of society that we’ve become. Sometimes people are just too busy. And I have a case in the book about two parents who were so busy, each with their own career. One was a mayor and the other was a financial investor. And they were too busy to pay attention to their wonderful little 10-year-old son.

Gabe Howard: But it’s also kind of heartbreaking, right?

W. Freiberg: Yes, of course it is. So that’s one way of being lonely. Even though you’re surrounded by others. Another way is a one-way relationship. Sometimes people enter relationships with very different goals in mind, and that can lead to a relationship that doesn’t work. One person is thinking that they’re deeply in love with the other person, whether the other person is just a transactional relationship, trying to get some business or get advantage in some way or other. Sometimes people are in relationships for very different purposes. A third way are fraudulent relationships. So sometimes people enter relationships without being honest about who they really are, what they really want, what they really believe. A fourth one is sometimes relationships are uncertain. They’re tenuous. People are only conditionally involved. Depends on this. Depends on that. That’s the opposite of a successful, fulfilling relationship. Correct? We want to know that our friendships that matter, our love ships that sustain us are meant by everybody involved to go on indefinitely throughout our lives. That’s the point of old friends or successful marriage or marital relationship kind of thing where you can count on the other person being there and staying there through thick and thin. And the fifth and final kind of relationship are dangerous relationships of problematic relationships, dangerous relationships. The classic example is spousal abuse. Sometimes, in fact usually, spousal abuse involves people who love each other. But one of them is putting up with physical or psychological abuse. But it’s hard to leave because it’s still their relationship. So sometimes relationships are literally dangerous to be in even though they’re important to the person who’s at risk. So those are ways in which my actual law cases fell out and told us five different stories about how sometimes people are surrounded by others. They’re married, they have kids, they have neighbors, they have colleagues, but they experience life as if they were all alone.

Gabe Howard: How can we lower our risk of becoming chronically lonely, because in my mind, it just seems like gather up people, make more friends on Facebook and hey, you’ve achieved it. But I imagine that that’s not the answer you’re going to give.

W. Freiberg: Well, it’s not unrelated to the answer, so there’s no magic here, we learn our relational skills early on as children, as our parents do this. And for those listening who have been parents or can remember back into their own childhood, because we’re all ex-children, all that loving and nurturing care from our parents. When you raise a child, how many hugs, how many kisses, how many skinned knees and scraped elbows do you soothe and kiss and help the child work through? We’re training our children to relate and love others. We’re teaching our children to go make their relationships in the world just the way parental birds teach the little fledgling birds how to fly, how to find worms or fish for fish, whatever they do, we literally train our children in the skills of relationships and then they go out in the world and learn to make their own friends. We’ve all watched kids move from parallel play to real play with other children to friendships. And later in teenage years, as they learn to work out relationships. We’ve all been through that. And we’ve a lot of us have watched children or nieces, nephews learn to do that. So part of what we do in working with people who have relationship issues is teach them the bag of tricks about how to be good at forming relationships, how to be an active and interactive friend. There are people who are good at these things, just like any other sphere of life.

W. Freiberg: And there are others among us who are not so good. We can impart those skills. In direct response to your question, relational due diligence, just the way you look around your house and you say, oh, there’s a rotten piece of wood, I’m going to have to replace that or call a workman with that plumbing issue. So you have to look at your own relationships. Which ones haven’t you supported lately? Have you called your cousins, for example? Because we live farther from people now, we have busier lives between the work and the commuting and the geographical mobility and the social mobility of modern life. 

Gabe Howard: And we’ll be back in a minute after we hear from our sponsors.

Sponsor Message: Gabe here and I wanted to tell you about Psych Central’s other podcast that I host, Not Crazy. It’s straight talk about the world of mental illness and it is hosted by me and my ex-wife. You should check it out at PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy or your favorite podcast player.

Sponsor Message: This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.com. Secure, convenient, and affordable online counseling. Our counselors are licensed, accredited professionals. Anything you share is confidential. Schedule secure video or phone sessions, plus chat and text with your therapist whenever you feel it’s needed. A month of online therapy often costs less than a single traditional face to face session. Go to BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral and experience seven days of free therapy to see if online counseling is right for you. BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral.

Gabe Howard: We’re back discussing loneliness with Dr. J. W. Freiberg.

Gabe Howard: One of the things that you mentioned were children and you said that we learn as children how not to be lonely, I believe your exact phrase was we moved from playing next to our peers to playing with our peers. But doesn’t the research state that more and more children are chronically lonely?

W. Freiberg: Indeed, that’s the case, everybody’s much more chronically lonely and the loneliest among us is Generation Z and the Millennials. So that’s people from 18 to 38. They actually score the loneliest on the UCLA loneliness scale.

Gabe Howard: But how can we help children who are chronically lonely, because I don’t think that anybody likes the idea of kids just wandering around feeling so alone for reasons that we could probably discuss for hours, we’re OK with adults being lonely. But this idea that a five-year-old or a 10-year-old or even a 15-year-old would feel so disconnected and so alone, it kind of sticks with us in a way. How can we as adults help?

W. Freiberg: Each of us who’s involved with raising a child has issues to think through to help that child. Just depends on the child. Right. And if a child is unable to relate successfully to make friends successfully to get on in the schoolyard, it’s very important for the parent to take note of that and to listen to hints he or she may get from, say, the teacher or guidance counselor at school and to openly discuss, work with that child about friendship making skills where that child falls down in the process. And by the way, one of the negative consequences of trying to stay safe from COVID-19 is that many children are not able to have free play to the extent they always did. And it’s in the free play at recess on the play field during the weekends, during the summer, when adults aren’t telling kids how to interrelate, the kids are just learning to deal with one another. That’s when children work out these skills. Skills like how to approach someone about beginning a friendship, how to become part of a group, how to recognize and deal with the local bully. Those are all things that children learn by dealing with one another. And if somebody’s child is having a problem with those things, the trick is to pay attention to it, maybe even to seek some professional help about how to be a helpful parent in those circumstances.

Gabe Howard: Do you think that COVID and the global pandemic is increasing loneliness? Has it changed any of your thoughts or feelings about loneliness? How has COVID played into your overall thoughts about loneliness?

W. Freiberg: Needless to say, COVID is a very powerful stressor on the issue of connectivity or loneliness, no question about it, and it strikes different groups in different ways. Let’s take the age groups in terms of little children. I’ve sort of spoken about that they’re not able to have their free play time as much. It’s basically harder for children to play with one another and practice their inter-relationship and friendship making skills. Working people in that age group are farther from one another. Many are now working remotely or in an office with a reduced staff. So they don’t see people as much as they used to. They see their friends less. They go to restaurants and bars and fun events less. Of course, they’re more divided from one another. And let’s take a look at grandparents. Sure, we can see our kids on Zoom. I have a couple of grandchildren. I see them on Zoom. I wave at them, they wave at me. That’s certainly better than nothing. And it’s important to make use of it. But it isn’t the same thing as holding one’s grandchild. So COVID-19 is a tough variable. It’s a real stressor. It is critically hard on chronically lonely people, but it’s also hard on the rest of us who are fortunate to be involved in successful relationships that make us feel safe.

Gabe Howard: Thank you so much for that, I really appreciate it. I just, I just don’t see how we can talk about most things without mentioning COVID, but I really don’t see how we can talk about loneliness without mentioning COVID.

W. Freiberg: Yeah, I mean, the isolation, which is part of the public health response to COVID-19 acts directly on people who have issues with loneliness in a serious way, what I call chronically lonely people, but also on the rest of us who are just aren’t able to spend the time with the people we like and love who are so important in our lives.

Gabe Howard: I completely agree. Can you walk us through your theory that chronic loneliness is a sensation rather than an emotion?

W. Freiberg: Sure, I’m fascinated by the fact that we humans are also animals, we’re also mammals, and we’re mammals of a certain sort. We are small pod family herd animals, like, for example, the cetaceans, that’s the seagoing mammals, the whales, the porpoises and the dolphins. Also certain types of hooved animals and certain classes of the great apes. We are that kind of mammal. We are built, we are wired to be with others. And when we’re not with others, we feel unsafe, disconnected and at risk. And it alerts us. We have an alert system for hunger. We have an alert system for a thirst. We have an alert system for fear, and we have an alert system for connection. And that’s what loneliness is. Loneliness is the name of the sensation we feel when we are inadequately connected to others. Look, humans are slow runners. We don’t see that well, we don’t hear that well, we don’t smell that well compared to a lot of other mammals. But we’re really clever when we team up with one another because we have language and hands and we are able to coordinate, cooperate to be very viable. That has to do with connecting successfully with one another. And so we have a warning system that tells us when we’re unsafe by disconnection. And that’s the feeling of loneliness that wells up in this. And let me just say one thing. If you think I’m exaggerating about how powerful that signal of loneliness is that we feel, we don’t think, we feel, the way we feel hunger or feel thirsty. You tell me, which hurts more, a broken arm or a broken heart?

Gabe Howard: It’s a different kind of pain, though, right? It sort of reminds me of those questions that me and my teenage friends like, What’s your favorite movie? Well, my favorite comedy? My favorite action movie? Like, no, just your favorite movie. It’s I am thinking about this question sincerely. And you’re right. The problem with a broken heart is there’s no treatment and you never know when it’s going to end. It just kind of lingers forever. 

W. Freiberg: And let’s look at some of the consequences or the difference in consequences, if you have a broken arm, as you say, two hours later, you get a cast around it and two days later, your friends are signing your cast. Six weeks later, off it comes, you do some rehab. You’re back to who you were. People commit suicide over broken hearts. Not so much broken arms. People write poetry. People write opera about broken hearts, about failed love relationships. I’ve never seen any drama, opera or poetry about a broken arm. Have you?

Gabe Howard: This is very true, I can’t decide if that’s like a really good idea, if I’m going to be on Broadway next year with the broken arm, but you’re absolutely right. And it’s a broken heart is traumatic and it causes a trauma and Dr. Freiberg, there’s obviously so many questions surrounding loneliness, and it’s very evident to me in our discussion that it’s very misunderstood. People don’t understand it and often they blame themselves for it. I know there’s probably no way to wrap this up into a nice little bow, but if you could speak to people experiencing chronic loneliness, what would you want them to know?

W. Freiberg: I would want them to know that as painful as chronic loneliness is, whether it’s the objective sort where you’re you don’t have any friends or whether it’s a subjective sort of the people in your life aren’t fulfilling you, there are steps you can take and it doesn’t take a pile of money, doesn’t take the traveling around the globe. It takes being resourceful, looking honestly at your relationships, seeing where you could improve them and being active and clever about it. For example, learning to listen is one of the tricks we talk to people about. Some people are good listeners. They really are there while their friend is talking to them and they ask follow up questions. Other people are thinking what they’re going to say next and they don’t even really acknowledge receipt of the information they’ve been given. So learning to be a better listener, for example, as your friends tell you about how they feel about what’s going on in their lives, there’s a whole bag of tricks like that. And if you go to my website, JWFreiberg.com or TheLonelinessBooks.com, I included some tests, the UCLA loneliness scale. If you take that little test at home, they’ll take about 45 minutes max. It’s just 20 little questions in everyday language. You don’t want to be any kind of psychologist to take the test. It’s made to be available. It’ll tell you how your relationships are doing. And if you take the relational assessment chart test, which is right next to it on that website, you’ll see how each individual relationship of yours scores. Is that a healthy sound one or just it has some areas to work on. So just as you could do a better job of policing, let’s say your diet or your exercise regime, you can do a better job of relating to others by being aware of what’s going on. 

Gabe Howard: I really do believe that loneliness is one of those things that everybody thinks that they understand, but that in actuality, nobody understands it at all.

W. Freiberg: I think you’re absolutely right, but it’s very possible to improve in this sphere, just as we’re supposed to watch that we eat a decent diet, that we get enough exercise, that we don’t smoke too much and so on, we need to take a look at our relationships and how we can strengthen them. And it’s very doable.

Gabe Howard: Dr. Freiberg’s latest book, Surrounded by Others and Yet So Alone: A Lawyer’s Case Stories of Love, Loneliness, and Litigation is out now. Dr. Freiberg, where can they find you and where can they find your book?

W. Freiberg: So it’s on Amazon, they just go under my initials J.W. Freiberg, F R E I B E R G, and it’ll lead you right there. And the website has all sorts of useful things. If you’re interested in being serious about the quality of your relationships, if you go to that little website and click around, you’ll find all sorts of useful hints and modes of approach that will help you get better with your existing relationship and go out and form some new ones as well.

Gabe Howard: Dr. Freiberg, thank you so much for being here. You’ve really illuminated a lot on loneliness.

W. Freiberg: It has been my pleasure.

Gabe Howard: Well, everyone, we’ve reached the end of the show. My name is Gabe Howard and I am the author of Mental Illness Is an Asshole and Other Observations, which is available on Amazon.com. Or you can get signed copies for less money, and I’ll include The Psych Central Podcast swag. Just head over to gabehoward.com. If you like the show, and I certainly hope that you did, please rate, rank and review. Subscribe wherever you downloaded it and tell all your friends. And remember, you can get one week of free, convenient, affordable, private online counseling any time anywhere simply by visiting BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral. We’ll see everybody next week.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to The Psych Central Podcast. Want your audience to be wowed at your next event? Feature an appearance and LIVE RECORDING of the Psych Central Podcast right from your stage! For more details, or to book an event, please email us at show@psychcentral.com. Previous episodes can be found at PsychCentral.com/Show or on your favorite podcast player. Psych Central is the internet’s oldest and largest independent mental health website run by mental health professionals. Overseen by Dr. John Grohol, Psych Central offers trusted resources and quizzes to help answer your questions about mental health, personality, psychotherapy, and more. Please visit us today at PsychCentral.com.  To learn more about our host, Gabe Howard, please visit his website at gabehoward.com. Thank you for listening and please share with your friends, family, and followers.

 The post Podcast: Loneliness and Litigation: A Lawyer's Case Study first appeared on World of Psychology.

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Podcast: Grieving and Radical Honesty

  Is there a correct way to grieve? What if you lose an estranged family member with whom you have unresolved differences? In today’s show, Lisa discusses the death of her grandfather, whom she wasn’t close to, and how she has mentally and emotionally processed it.

Join us for a closer look at the grieving process and how there is no one way to handle death.

(Transcript Available Below)

Please Subscribe to Our Show: And We Love Written Reviews! 

About The Not Crazy podcast Hosts

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from Gabe Howard. To learn more, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

        Lisa is the producer of the Psych Central podcast, Not Crazy. She is the recipient of The National Alliance on Mental Illness’s “Above and Beyond” award, has worked extensively with the Ohio Peer Supporter Certification program, and is a workplace suicide prevention trainer. Lisa has battled depression her entire life and has worked alongside Gabe in mental health advocacy for over a decade. She lives in Columbus, Ohio, with her husband; enjoys international travel; and orders 12 pairs of shoes online, picks the best one, and sends the other 11 back.

    Computer Generated Transcript for “Grieving and Radical Honesty” Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Lisa: You’re listening to Not Crazy, a Psych Central podcast hosted by my ex-husband, who has bipolar disorder. Together, we created the mental health podcast for people who hate mental health podcasts.

Gabe: Hey, everyone, and welcome to this week’s episode of the Not Crazy podcast, I’m your host, Gabe Howard. And with me, as always, is Lisa Kiner.

Lisa: Hey, everyone, today we’re going to think about how Mitch Albom said death ends a life, not a relationship.

Gabe: Lisa, I want to give you my sincerest condolences on the loss of your grandfather. How are you and your family?

Lisa: We are fine, thank you for asking. Are you being sarcastic?

Gabe: I am not being sarcastic because. 

Lisa: OK

Gabe: I know that you and your grandfather didn’t get along. I think the audience is probably like, why?

Lisa: We didn’t not get along, we just didn’t really have much of a relationship.

Gabe: And that leads us into our show topic, right? And that leads us right into your quote as well. We always have this idea that that death is final, right? Death is final, 

Lisa: Death is final.

Gabe: But it’s not. Because your memory lives on, your people who knew you live on. For example, you had unresolved issues with your grandfather. You had unresolved feelings, whether good, bad, positive, negative. They’re unresolved. They didn’t just stop. His memory didn’t just end. For example, even though your grandfather has passed away, we’re talking about him right now. That’s the very definition of not final.

Lisa: Immortality via podcast.

Gabe: Well, yes. It or I mean, why do people talk about history? If death is final? We should never have to consider history because after all, all the people that did it are dead. So therefore, it has ramifications. Right?

Lisa: Right, I would agree with that.

Gabe: So therefore, death is not final. That’s my point.

Lisa: Well, the point I’m making is, one, my grandfather was 92. He’d gone much longer than the average. And two, we were not close. We have never been close. So when you say, oh, I know you have issues. Well, no, I don’t think so. I think I had more. I know this sounds cold. I think I have more apathy than anything else. I mean, 92-year-old people die. That’s how it is. I know it makes me sound evil.

Gabe: I don’t think that it makes you sound evil, I, it’s your truth, right? It’s just it’s not a thing that you hear very often.

Lisa: It’s not something you can say out loud because people get really nasty about it.

Gabe: It is interesting to me, I believe very firmly, that everybody grieves in their own way, and I don’t like it when somebody has a loved one who passes away, whether it be a spouse, a child, a father or even a friend. And everybody is judging the way that that person reacts to it. First and foremost, that’s how they’re reacting in public. You have no idea. Maybe they’re acting stereotypical once the door is shut. Right? I mean, it just we judge everybody by what we see in public, but we compare it to how we act in private.

Lisa: That is a good point, I had not thought about that, but I always just I think one of the reasons people, police, how you grieve is because they see it as disrespectful to the dead person. The time to respect them was while they were alive.

Gabe: Well, not only is the time to respect them while they are alive, but consider this for a moment, I’m going to use myself as an example. I have now passed away, Lisa.

Lisa: OK

Gabe: Now I’m going to assume that you are sad about this, because I’m not 92. I want to be.

Lisa: Ok, again, I realize this makes me sound like the ice queen, everyone thinks it’s evil. He was 92 years old, he had a career, he had family, he lived his life. It was his time.

Gabe: You’re focusing on the complete wrong point, the point that I’m making is that I am now dead, right?

Lisa: Ok, OK, sorry. Go back to the Gabe dead thing, got it.

Gabe: Yeah, I don’t, you can tell that Lisa feels very strongly that she’s doing something wrong because she keeps defending herself even in the midst of a very obvious joke.

Lisa: No, I don’t feel no, I don’t feel like I’m doing something wrong. I realize that I get a lot of criticism for this attitude.

Gabe: And the reason that you said you feel that you get criticism is because people feel like you’re disrespecting the person who passed away, yes or no?

Lisa: It’s not a yes or no question.

Gabe: Yes, it is it’s a yes or no question, do you feel that that’s why people are criticizing the way that you are grieving? Because they feel that how you grieve is showing respect or love or something towards the person who passed away? Yes or no?

Lisa: Yes, I think it’s a large part of it, but not all of it.

Gabe: OK, and now we go back to my example. I am now dead, OK? Right. I have passed away. And Lisa, you are going to feel sad about this, yes or no? 

Lisa: Yes. 

Gabe: And let’s say that somebody criticizes how you feel sad about this. They decide that Lisa is not appropriately grieving, displaying emotion, whatever word you want to put there. They’re on top of Lisa and upset with her because they feel that it is disrespectful toward me, the person who passed away. You follow so far. 

Lisa: Yes.

Gabe: I want to go on record as saying that when I die, however Lisa chooses to handle this is correct, because Lisa is my best friend. I want her to get through my passing. And the last thing I want is for the people around her to jump on her and tell her that what she’s doing is wrong. She’s got enough to deal with, I mean, literally the greatest person she ever knew in the history of time.

Lisa: The most substantial influence, yeah, far surpassing anyone else.

Gabe: Has just passed away and it

Lisa: Yeah, you are my muse.

Gabe: I do kid, because death is one of those things that if you don’t add a joke every once in a while, it’s really, really hard for people to comprehend. But I just think about the people who have died in my life. And I can only imagine that if people were mean to me over their passing or judgmental or whatever word you want to use, I don’t think that they would feel very good about this. These are people that loved me literally their entire life. But even more importantly, Lisa, I just think that it’s your choice. Like, it’s a very personal choice on how you handle it. And I don’t really think it’s anybody else’s business.

Lisa: Well, people are judgmental and nosy.

Gabe: Yes, people are judgmental and nosy, but let’s assume the best of intentions. You said you feel like they’re doing it to defend the person who passed away. So on some level, you appreciate that, right? Because the person

Lisa: No.

Gabe: Who passed away is in your circle as well. Don’t you want them to have people who stick up for them?

Lisa: No, because they are dead, they don’t know the difference. Where was all this love and respect and sticking up, etc., where the person was alive? They are now gone and have very little care about what is happening after the fact. I think it has a large component of judgy and nosy because people police grief constantly. Everyone feels like you should feel a certain way. You should act a certain way. I don’t know. It makes them uncomfortable if you don’t and people do not have any compunction about telling you to your face that you are wrong in how you grieve all sorts of relationships.

Gabe: I’m glad that you said that because I want people to hear that because death is hard enough and we do all mourn it and grieve it in our own way and having people follow you around and telling you that you’re wrong, it’s just it’s very bad for your mental health. You’re already not doing well, right? Somebody that you knew, somebody that you had an existing relationship passed away. And it doesn’t matter if that’s a coworker or literally your closest friend, loved one parent, grandparent, etc. Death has a reaction. It has a ripple effect. Have you ever worked somewhere where a coworker passed away? You only knew them at work. It hit you, right? It had a feeling in your chest. You didn’t just say, well, he wasn’t my family. Right?

Lisa: Well, there’s an element of your own mortality and discomfort with that.

Gabe: You come off so cold, Lisa,

Lisa: I know.

Gabe: I just I said that somebody that you knew died and you just made it about yourself. You’re not this cold as a person.

Lisa: It’s my podcast.

Gabe: No, sincerely. I know you’re uncomfortable and you’ve now got like your, what is it? Your cackles up. You’re trying

Lisa: Hackles,

Gabe: To be very defensive. But

Lisa: Hackles.

Gabe: I mean, I don’t know words, but no, sincerely, I just said a coworker, somebody that you worked with everyday died. And that feels very different than if, say, your mother or father, grandparent or child or spouse passed away. 

Lisa: Right.

Gabe: And your response to that is, oh, yeah, I don’t care that they’re dead. It reminds me that I’m going to die. You’re not this cold as a person.

Lisa: Why is that how you’re interpreting it? You’re asking me why it is someone might feel uncomfortable or unhappy. You don’t think that’s a component of it?

Gabe: I do think that’s a component, I just

Lisa: You don’t think discomfort with the concept of death or the afterlife or your or discomfort with your own mortality or the idea that nobody wants to die? We all want to live forever, and we all kind of think that we’re going to live forever. You don’t think that’s a component of this feeling that you have when this person has passed? You don’t think that’s a component of that feeling?

Gabe: I do think that’s a component of that feeling and as an example, that is what you thought of and there’s nothing wrong with that.

Lisa: I don’t know, you seem to be pretty judge-y, telling me that there’s something wrong with that?

Gabe: No, I wasn’t telling you that there was something wrong with that, I was surprised that that’s the first place that you went. I know you very well, Lisa, and I don’t believe that that’s the first thing that you think. I have seen you run into traffic and risk your own life to save other people. I have seen you sit with people who are in harm’s way or dying or in trouble. I once watched you spend 30 hours to return a stray dog to somebody. And I refuse to believe that the makeup of that person honestly feels in her heart of hearts that when somebody dies, it’s just a reminder that she’s going to die and she could give a rat’s ass that they’re dead. I’m wondering, is that a defense mechanism on your part? Is it a oh, I’m not going to focus on the person who’s dead because that’s final and over so that that way I can move past it. And the reason I bring this up is because I think a lot of people do this and a lot of people get unnecessary shit when it’s just a defense mechanism and they’re wonderful people. I want to be clear, Lisa. You are a wonderful person and I’m not criticizing you in any way. But you have to admit, it sounds very cold when I say, hey, a coworker dies, you’re like, yeah, I don’t care. It just reminds me of my own immortality or mortality,

Lisa: But see, you’re adding.

Gabe: My own mortality.

Lisa: You’re adding, though, I didn’t say, oh, I don’t care, I said part of your discomfort is. Why’s it got to be all or none? What’s with this black or white thinking?

Gabe: Because that’s how people feel about death, for example, you just said death was final, absolute the end. What’s with your black and white thinking? 

Lisa: Death is final.

Gabe: Oh, death is very much not final.

Lisa: Don’t go there, don’t go there.

Gabe: So let’s talk about that for a moment,

Lisa: Let’s. Let’s discuss the existential plain, Gabe.

Gabe: No, no, no, let’s let’s let’s actually OK, yes, one of the things that I think’s trips people up when they’re grieving and they’re mourning is this idea that death is final. I don’t believe that death is final. I think that death is final in that you can do nothing more to influence the future because you are no longer part of it. However, I believe that the past very much influences the future, and the people in my life who have passed away are still influencing me based on stuff they did when they were alive. They just can’t clarify or contribute anymore. I think that part of the grieving process is recognizing that their memories still live on, their lessons still live on. You keep saying that death is final. I do not believe that death is final in that we still remember and react to things that our

Lisa: Ok, yes.

Gabe: Loved ones or people that we did

Lisa: But, but you’re mixing. You’re mixing together things. When most people say death is final, they’re stating a almost a religious belief. They’re talking about their belief in the afterlife. And you’re talking about something else.

Gabe: Religion does not believe that death is final.

Lisa: Well, exactly, that’s my point. When you sit there and say, well, death isn’t the end, you realize that almost everybody interprets that as a statement of religious belief.

Gabe: That’s my point, though, everybody interprets it differently, but that interpretation seems to rest on the person whom they’re talking to, because you didn’t grieve correctly, you didn’t react correctly. You’re not handling it in the same way that I do. And I’m trying to explain that we all see it very differently. Religious people see it differently than atheists. Atheists see it different than religious people. And even the religions can’t decide. You know, some people go to heaven, some people go to Nirvana. In the religion that I was raised in, we have a limbo. It’s all very different and very personal. And I think that this sort of judgment, this sort of assuming that everybody is going to handle this the same way. I just think it impacts the mental health of people who are going through grief almost more than the grief.

Lisa: Yeah, I would agree with that. People are very judge-y and nosy and people are inherently uncomfortable with death, and when people don’t know what to say, they either say nothing or they say stupid stuff, stupid, unhelpful stuff.

Gabe: Well, that’s very interesting. At the top of the show, as you remember, I said my condolences on the loss of your grandfather and you very snarkily said, are you being sarcastic? Well, I.

Lisa: Well, because you know me, if you were a stranger on the street who said, oh, I’m so sorry. I’m not an idiot, I do understand social norms, the reply I would give is Oh, thank you so much. Yes. And then you say something like, well, you know, it was his time or, well, yes, we all miss him very much. Oh, he was such a good man. Whatever the correct response to a stranger saying that would be “Oh, thank you so much.” But you happen to know me and you happen to know that I really didn’t have much of a relationship with my grandfather. So when you say it, it comes off to me as maybe you’re being sarcastic because you happen to know the relationship I had with this person.

Gabe: Now, your relationship with your grandfather was strained for a number of reasons, one of those reasons was because your grandfather was an alcoholic.

Lisa: Yes. I don’t think it’s fair to categorize it as strained, because strained implies that there’s this heavy level of activity on both ends, I would say that again, more of an apathy thing. I really didn’t have much of a relationship with my grandfather.

Gabe: You spent every holiday with him

Lisa: Well, yeah, but in the company of other family. It wasn’t just him.

Gabe: You act like you hadn’t seen him in years.

Lisa: No, no, I saw him all the time.

Gabe: Exactly.

Lisa: But it’s not like outside of family get togethers where there’s tons of other people there that we were you know, we didn’t call on the phone or write letters individually to one another or anything like that.

Gabe: You’re Facebook friends.

Lisa: He was strangely the biggest social media user. He was the first person I ever met who was on Twitter. I don’t know why. I don’t know what was up with him and social media. Anyway.

Gabe: Lisa, I don’t want to get in a semantics argument with you, whether you call it strained, whether you call it apathetic, whether you call it you just didn’t care. The words are really irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, is that your relationship with your grandfather was not good. And now that he has passed away, this is influencing how you’re going to move forward, how you’re going to grieve, how you respond, how sad you are. And I think that the audience would like to know, OK, well, what did this man do to you that that made you dislike him?

Lisa: Nothing, and I didn’t particularly dislike him. He was an alcoholic, he and my mother certainly had a strained relationship. Absolutely. And of course, that trickled down to us. I think when most people think of grandparents is because of that bond you formed with your grandparents as children. All the cartoon versions of grandparents with the love and the hugs and the candy and the gifts and the going to grandma and grandpa’s house. And we didn’t really have much contact with my mother’s parents when we were kids, because he was an alcoholic and mom didn’t want him to be around us if he was drunk and he was always drunk. So I think that’s probably one of the reasons I have kind of this apathetic thing is that I didn’t really have that grandparent bonding thing going on with my mother’s parents. Now, I had that with my father’s parents plenty. No problem. I had plenty of grandparents. I was not lacking for grandparents. But if you don’t form that bond in childhood, I think it’s not like you’re suddenly going to go do it when you’re 30

Gabe: Lisa, are members of your own family giving you shit for how you’re responding to your grandfather’s death?

Lisa: No, because I’m not an idiot and I can absolutely police it and most of them don’t listen to this podcast, so I should be OK.

Gabe: When you say police, do you mean you’re lying to them, you’re pretending that you’re sad?

Lisa: I would not categorize it as lying, but yes, I certainly am going, oh, yes, this is so sad. Yes, yeah, I don’t really feel this way, but again, I’m not happy the person is dead or anything. I just don’t particularly have strong feelings about this.

Gabe: I understand the whole concept of just because you don’t want somebody to eat at your table doesn’t mean that you want them to starve.

Lisa: Right, right.

Gabe: And I get that you weren’t rooting for anything bad to happen

Lisa: No.

Gabe: To him. Just its life moves on. Not much has changed for you.

Lisa: Yeah, almost nothing has changed for me.

Gabe: Do you feel bad about this?

Lisa: Only because this, of course, has had an impact on my mother, her sisters, this is having an impact on other members who I do care about and love and have an ongoing relationship with. But as for him, yeah, you know, whatever. There were plenty of other 92-year-old men who died that day. I’m not particularly worked up about any of them either. 

Gabe: Lisa, in some ways, you’re one of the most mentally healthy people I know, you have excellent boundaries. You’re really good at managing your family. I look up to you in this way.

Lisa: This is in part just a function of the people, you know, but yes,

Gabe: Yes, but

Lisa: I’m mentally healthier than you.

Gabe: But we’ll talk later.

Lisa: Low bar, anyway.

Gabe: But a lot of people feel very badly about this. When the people come up and criticize how they grieve, they don’t have this devil may care cavalier attitude that you have. It impacts them very much. And they feel like they’re bad people for this. How did you get to this point? Do you just not care what other people think? And this is just like a a skill that you developed?

Lisa: Is this your first day? Oh, for God sakes.

Gabe: No, I’m being serious. A lot of people would feel very, very badly. People constantly feel that they’re not grieving right. And the people are criticizing them. And that makes it worse. And you’re just like, oh, just ignore it, which is literally the equivalent of just lose weight. Just cheer up, just make more money.

Lisa: I know.

Gabe: Anybody listening to this, they may want to be you, but they don’t know how to be you. And every time I ask you a direct question about how can people manage this in their own lives if they’re going through this and they feel this way, your answer seems to be, well, stop it.

Lisa: Unfortunately, I don’t have a better answer. I don’t know, maybe part of this is just inherent personality. In general, I don’t care that much about what other people think. I certainly don’t care as much as you do.

Gabe: Well, nobody can care as much as I do, I have an anxiety disorder, paranoia, I care what everybody thinks all the time, always. In fact, I can tell that somewhere in the world, somebody who has never met me is thinking something negative and now my whole day is ruined.

Lisa: That is true, actually, it’s very sad.

Gabe: It is very sad, but, Lisa, sincerely, people listening to this, they feel bad that they are not reacting correctly. What advice do you have for them to move forward?

Lisa: The same advice that I have for everyone if someone says to you you are doing something wrong. You must analyze this. Are you doing something wrong? If the answer is no, then who cares? You don’t need to listen to this person who tells you this. You know, in your heart that you’re good. You don’t need to listen to this person. Stop listening to them. But if you’re in your heart, you think I am doing something wrong, then change your behavior. So when people say you’re making me feel guilty, OK, no, you can’t make anybody feel anything. If you feel guilty, it’s because, you know you did something wrong, because if you didn’t do anything wrong, you can just dismiss this person.

Gabe: So you’re saying that you would like you would do a chain analysis and you would evaluate it, you’d be like, OK, this is this is how I feel. This is what the person is saying. And you would back it up and see if they intersect in any way.

Lisa: Right, and if they don’t, then you can safely ignore them.

Gabe: Lisa, I know that in your particular case, with your grandfather, the closest members of your family, for example, your mother are apathetic like you are, but

Lisa: I don’t think that’s fair to say.

Gabe: You said that your mother and you had the same response to this.

Lisa: I never said that.  I wouldn’t say that my mother is apathetic about this if for no other reason than because she cares about the reaction of her sisters.

Gabe: Have you told your mother how you feel about this, or are you pretending that you have more deep investment to save your mother’s feelings?

Lisa: No, I don’t need to pretend for her. She won’t be offended by it.

Gabe: Ok, but what if your mother was offended by it, would the

Lisa: Then I would pretend.

Gabe: You would pretend and do you feel that that pretending is the best policy? I don’t really think there’s a wrong answer here, but every answer, of course, has a pro and a con.

Lisa: Well, there’s two sides to it, there’s the effect on everyone else, and then there’s the advantage to you. Pretending to have a deeper emotional investment than you do, perhaps makes other people feel better. It makes them not as sad. They don’t have to deal with it. And if these are people you care about and you have that ability, why wouldn’t you? Someone they care about just died. You don’t want them to have to deal with you. Why wouldn’t you do that if you could? And then in terms of the benefit to you, it’s that you don’t have to listen to any criticism. So it’s win win.

Gabe: The reason that I don’t think it’s win win is because, of course, the less you tell those closest to you, the less they know you. If you pretend that you care in this way, it does mean that your mother should reasonably assume that you care and therefore she might take steps to make you feel better. Because she cares about you, her daughter, and now she’s using emotional energy where none is needed because you gave her misinformation. But of course, you also do run the risk that if you give her the correct information, she expands energy in trying to get you to do something that you don’t want to do. How does that work? I mean, what’s your, what’s your general thoughts on that?

Lisa: I think this is part of the social contract and there’s a pro and con list for every interaction. You talk about pretending as if it’s a negative thing. You’ve never pretended to care about something that someone else cares about that you don’t?

Gabe: I do it all the time, but I have a level. I never pretend to care about something I don’t care about for you.

Lisa: Yes, you do.

Gabe: That’s not true. Name one time that I have pretended to care about something for your benefit and don’t say, well, you go to musical theater with me. I don’t pretend to care. I tell you that I don’t like musical theater, but I absolutely, unequivocally will escort you because you are my best friend.

Lisa: Well, this is the equivalent.

Gabe: Well, but it’s not. You don’t say, I don’t care that grandpa died, but I’ll pretend to care for your benefit. You actually pretend to care. You convince people that you care.

Lisa: No, you’re looking at this completely wrong. This is the equivalent of when you’re telling me all about your new backsplash. Yeah, I’m really not invested in your new backsplash. I don’t care about your backsplash. Your backsplash is not interesting to me, but it’s interesting to you. And I know that you care about this and you want me to say, oh, that’s nice and admire it, etc. The benefit I’m getting back is just like you said, you don’t want to go see that musical, but it makes me happy. So that’s a good trade for you. You can sit there and whatever, and because it makes your friend happy. It makes you happy when I ask you about your backsplash, even though if you died tomorrow, I would never care about this backsplash ever again or any backsplash for that matter. The thing that I’m getting out of it is the happiness or joy or whatever that it gives you. So this is the same thing. And we all do this all the time. When people come up to you and talk to you about boring subjects that you don’t care about, but you can tell they care a lot and it makes them happy, or at least it makes them more comfortable if you pretend to care. This is the exact same thing. It’s not different just because you’re applying it to death.

Gabe: I don’t think those are analogous at all.

Lisa: Why?

Gabe: First off, I do think that you care about my backsplash because you know that it’s meaningful to me and

Lisa: Exactly,

Gabe: You care about things that are meaningful to me.

Lisa: Yes, exactly, and this person is meaningful to the person you are talking to, even though it’s not meaningful to me, it’s meaningful to them.

Gabe: But you are pretending to grieve, you didn’t pretend to be excited for my backsplash, you just politely listened and you gave me your honest opinion on what you thought about it in my kitchen. You didn’t pose with a selfie. You didn’t take home samples. You didn’t tell me that I should give tours. You didn’t tell me that I should. Oh, my God. That’s the greatest backsplash

Lisa: There’s levels, there are levels, and I’ve certainly done stuff like that in the past for things I don’t care about on your behalf, and you have for me as well.

Gabe: I don’t think that’s true. I have never once lied to you.

Lisa: So why are you? Lying has this inherent negative connotation.

Gabe: I have never once pretended for you

Lisa: Yes, you have

Gabe: When.

Lisa: Really? I am getting new flooring. How often have we been talking about this flooring? You’re telling me you care about my flooring?

Gabe: Yes.

Lisa: Of course you don’t care. You don’t care. It’s not going to be on your feet. What do you care? You care because you know I care, because you’re being polite and giving me that outlet.

Gabe: Once again, I just don’t think this is the same thing.

Lisa: I think this is exactly the same thing, I don’t understand why you don’t think this is the same thing, and frankly, I don’t even know that I can explain it because it’s so obvious to me that this is the exact same thing that I don’t even know how to tell you.

Gabe: The reason that it’s not analogous is because grandpa belongs to both you and your mom. The floor only belongs to you. That alone makes it not analogous. You’d have to find something that we both, in theory, should care equally about.

Lisa: No, why would you assume that my mother and I should, and incidentally, why are you using the word should, should care equally about this person?

Gabe: I said, in theory, should care equally about the.

Lisa: But why in theory? Why at all, why is that a thing?

Gabe: Because otherwise, you wouldn’t be doing anything wrong. If it’s well understood that you are supposed to care less about your dead loved one than another person, then there’s no reason to tell you that you’re grieving wrong. That person couldn’t possibly understand it after all.

Lisa: No,

Gabe: Because there are two separate relationships.

Lisa: That is well understood, everybody expects you to grieve more for a spouse or a child or a parent than you do for a second cousin.

Gabe: I disagree with that completely, I think that they expect you to grieve differently. I don’t think it’s a more or less I think it’s a differently and once again, your example is about something that I do not own. I do not live in your house. Like you said. I don’t even walk on your floor. It’s well understood. Why don’t we talk about something that we’re buying together? Why don’t we talk about the logo for our podcast? 

Lisa: OK.

Gabe: What if you found out that I lied to you about that logo where I convinced you that I loved the logo and that it was a great logo and then you found out later on I just told you what you wanted to hear. I hate that logo. Wouldn’t that upset you?

Lisa: But

Gabe: You’d be like we designed it together.

Lisa: Do you hate the logo or are you just?

Gabe: No, no, no, I love the logo, the logo is fantastic.

Lisa: No, no, not the actual logo, it’s an analogy, Gabe. But do you hate the logo or you just don’t really give a f**k, you just don’t really care all that much about the logo. But you could tell that I’m heavily invested in the logo. So you will put your time and effort into this because

Gabe: Right, and then what I’d say

Lisa: And, incidentally, think that might have actually happened with our actual logo.

Gabe: What happened with the actual logo is that you told me that you didn’t care and I could decide. 

Lisa: Right.

Gabe: See, you didn’t lie to me. According to you, what you should have done is pretend that you had the same level of excitement about the logo as me. But that’s not what you did. You told me that you didn’t care. I could pick. Right. So therefore, no lie.

Lisa: Every situation is different.

Gabe: I still showed you and you still looked at it, etc., but you didn’t convince me that you had the same level of excitement or love of said logo as me in order to spare my feelings.

Lisa: But according to you, when you said to me, oh, look, here are a couple of different versions of the logo. What do you think? Since I don’t, in fact share, I should have said, you know, I will not look about these. I do not care about this. Take this from my site. No, of course not.

Gabe: No, what you did say is it’s entirely up to you. That’s what you said. I don’t think that if your mother says, you know, I’m mourning your grandfather, you should say I don’t care about him. Remove his name from existence.

Lisa: Exactly.

Gabe: Get him from my sight.

Lisa: There’s not only these two things, there are many options at play here, all different levels.

Gabe: We’ll be back in a minute after a word from our sponsor.

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Lisa: And we’re back with more Not Crazy.

Gabe: I just don’t understand why you’re categorizing politeness as it’s OK to lie.

Lisa: Why?

Gabe: If your mother wants to talk about your grandfather and you listen, that’s certainly not the same thing as you convincing your mother that you feel exactly how she feels.

Lisa: But I’m not doing that, I am not convincing anyone in my family that I care exactly how they do

Gabe: So you’ve let your family know that you don’t care.

Lisa: See, but that’s my point. Why do you think there’s only two choices?

Gabe: What’s the third choice?

Lisa: To be like, oh, huh. Yeah, yeah. Oh, oh, that is sad. Yeah, he’s gone. Yeah. Doing that.

Gabe: Knowing full well that what they’re gathering is that you agree with them,

Lisa: But.

Gabe: Silence implies consent. You’ve said that on this very show.

Lisa: Ok, so what would you have me do? For example, my cousins had much closer relationship with him than I did. They are grieving his passing. They have those fond memories of childhood with grandpa. Right. So when my cousins start saying, oh, that’s so sad about grandpa. I miss him so much. You know, we used to talk all the time and now I’m not able to talk to him. And I’m just so sad about that. Yeah, I haven’t talked to him like one on one in years. Am I supposed to say to her, you know, I don’t care about this? I didn’t ever call him for home remodeling advice. Why are you even mentioning this in my presence?

Gabe: Ok, but what

Lisa: What would you have me do?

Gabe: Two things, one, I don’t know why you’ve got to tell the truth in such a nasty way, you

Lisa: Exactly.

Gabe: Seem to think, no, stop. You seem to think that the truth can only be delivered in a nasty way. Every example that you’ve used, what would you have me do? Your example is the truth is just as mean as humanly possible. So

Lisa: So if.

Gabe: The doctor, upon telling the truth of your grandfather’s passing, according to your analogy, should have been like he’s dead. He is just dead. Dead, just dead. He’s never coming back. He’s dead. I mean, he’s telling

Lisa: No,

Gabe: The truth. So he must be cruel and mean.

Lisa: According to your analogy, I’m supposed to say something along the lines of I am not interested in this conversation, let us talk about something else?

Gabe: No, I’m not saying that at all. That is not what I said at all.

Lisa: Ok, so what am I supposed to say other than. Yes, yes. It’s so sad that he’s gone. What am I supposed to say?

Gabe: This whole thing started because I specifically said that when you agree with somebody like that, there is a connection that you are missing with them and maybe you’re OK with that, like with your cousins or aunts or friends or coworkers, etc. But what do you do? And this is a specific question that I asked. The specific question that I asked is, what do you do when you want to tell somebody the truth, but you know that it  will hurt them? What is the best way to tell them that when it comes to grief? And your response was lie anyways. There’s never any reason to tell the truth. And that bothers me. I don’t agree with.

Lisa: I don’t think that’s what I’m saying at all.

Gabe: Ok, so then answer this question exactly, your mother is grieving the loss of her father, your grandfather, you are apathetic. You want to tell your mother that you’re apathetic, but you don’t want to hurt her. How do you do it?

Lisa: There are two points to this, do not interrupt me. Number one, why do I have to tell her that I’m apathetic?

Gabe: That’s not the question that I asked. That’s

Lisa: Well, no, I’m saying.

Gabe: The answer to the question cannot be why do I have to answer the question?

Lisa: I told you not to interrupt and you’re interrupting.

Gabe: I understand that, but you’re

Lisa: The question is

Gabe: Politician-ing in the question. Just answer the question.

Lisa: You don’t know what I’m going to say yet, give me a sec.  So you don’t necessarily have to tell her that you’re apathetic. That’s not a requirement. You could just leave that out if you want to. And number two thing, you say something like, oh, you know, I wasn’t as close to him as you were or, you know, he really wasn’t part of my life in the way that he was yours. Or you say something, which I’ve often done, along the lines of, well, you know, he wasn’t so much a part of my life, but I can see how upset you are. I’m so sorry this happened to you. I’m so sorry for how you are feeling or depending on how close you are to someone, you know, I personally am not that affected by his death, but I’m worried on your behalf. You can say something like that.

Gabe: How do you handle that if that person fires back, what do you mean you don’t care? I thought you guys were close.

Lisa: What are they, idiots? Of course, we weren’t close. Who doesn’t know that?

Gabe: Once again, we’re offering advice to different families, and I don’t think it’s very fair for you to categorize the other way that families handle death as they’re idiots, that’s very dismissive.

Lisa: No, that’s not what I’m saying, what I’m saying, you have this whole thing about, well, this you’re not forging authentic connections.

Gabe: I don’t know why you’re mocking me, authentic connections are important.

Lisa: Any member of the family will know that I was not close with this person because they’re not blind. I guess if a family member said, oh, my goodness, why are you behaving this way? I thought you were close. At this point, you could probably just say no. Actually, we were not close. You were closer to him than I was. So-and-so was close with him. I personally haven’t seen him in X number of years. You can explain that you were not, in fact, close.

Gabe: It seems like the advice that you’re offering to people is that your family should know and if they don’t, they’re idiots.

Lisa: No, that’s not what I’m saying.

Gabe: You should lie to your family unless you get caught, in which case you should say it in the meanest way possible. I,

Lisa: No, that’s your advice.

Gabe: No, that’s not my advice at all.

Lisa: No, your advice is that whenever somebody dies, you have to immediately throw out every single thing you’ve ever thought.

Gabe: That’s not what I said even remotely.

Lisa: When someone talks to you about how they feel about a death and you personally do not have those same feelings, I don’t see why you can’t just pretend they’re talking about their carpet. You personally don’t care about their carpet.

Gabe: Well, OK.

Lisa: But part of the social contract is that you pretend to care about their carpet.

Gabe: I can’t do that because they’re my family and they’re not idiots, so they already know that I don’t care, so they bring it up to me. Do I try to convince them that I do, in fact, care by doubling down on the lie and of course, in the aggressively mean way? Or do I tell them the truth when they ask me point blank if I care?

Lisa: Sure, tell them the truth, you know, I’m really not that invested in the carpet, but I can see that you really care about these options.

Gabe: I do, in fact, agree with that advice, but when I asked you to suggest that originally you just said that that was mean and that you should lie.

Lisa: Ok, see, sometimes if someone wants to talk to you about their carpet, it is rude to say I don’t care about your carpet, even in a nice voice. You know, I don’t care about your carpet. That’s rude.

Gabe: But it’s your carpet as well.

Lisa: It’s not lying to say, you know, I’m not really invested in this, but what do you think? That’s not lying.

Gabe: Once again, this whole debate seems to be hung up on you saying, well, you don’t have to, it’s not required, your family

Lisa: Right,

Gabe: Are idiots, be mean about it.

Lisa: When did I say be mean about it?

Gabe: I can’t get you to directly answer a question, and in fact, when I say.

Lisa: I don’t understand the question,

Gabe: Then say that.

Lisa: What is the question? Ask me the question. What’s the question?

Gabe: Families are very complicated

Lisa: Ok.

Gabe: And death is very complicated, and the grieving process is fraught with misunderstanding and challenges and issues that are hard to navigate for families. And oftentimes the family member that is behaving differently from all the other family members is the one that feels left out and lost and in some cases unfairly judged or criticized or put upon for their feelings. And

Lisa: Agree.

Gabe: You have that in your family. You are the odd duck in your family. And I’m asking you how you coped with it and still got through to everybody. And you gave some excellent answers, some excellent answers of how to avoid, et cetera. Those were all perfect. OK, what’s the flipside of that? What’s the advice do you have for people that don’t want to use that advice? And your answer seems to be the advice that you gave originally as the only advice that’s out there. There’s no second chance. If you don’t use that advice, you’re a fool. Your advice so far has been excellent. What advice do you have for people that don’t want to whatever semantic argument you want to make, don’t that want to mislead, lie, trick? My question is, what advice do you have for people that want to tell their loved ones how they felt about the deceased, knowing that their family will not like the answer, but they want to do it? Don’t say they don’t have to. Don’t say they shouldn’t. They want to do it. They want to tell their family, look, I don’t care that he’s dead.

Lisa: Do we have any explanation for why they want to do this?

Gabe: They didn’t like the guy. Maybe he was abusive towards them or she was hurtful to them and they, for their own mental health, are getting sick and tired of hearing how great the deceased was, knowing that that person hurt them in some very traumatizing way and also, not for nothing, they now look around at their family and they think, well, you’re clearly not on my side, considering that person is now a hero.

Lisa: In this scenario, does the surrounding family know the back story and are deliberately ignoring it, or does the surrounding family not know?

Gabe: No, of course they know and chances are this person was dismissive, emotionally abusive, abusive, etc. to them as well. For example, much how it was in your family, your grandfather wasn’t any nicer to the other members of your family. They just, for whatever reason, didn’t cut him off.

Lisa: I never cut him off, I just didn’t have a relationship with him, and it wasn’t that he was mean, it’s just he was drunk. What you’re describing is a family where the abuse is understood. Everybody knows about it and someone is actively denying the truth of the abuse to someone. So in your scenario, let’s say Uncle Bob abused Jimmy when he was a child and now Mary is talking about Uncle Bob. Uncle Bob has died. Mary and Jimmy are talking. Mary knows well that Uncle Bob abused Jimmy and is now saying nice things about Uncle Bob. 

Gabe: Yes.

Lisa: Your question is, what should Jimmy say to Mary about Uncle Bob?

Gabe: Yes.

Lisa: But again, Mary knows that Uncle Bob was abusive and she’s saying this stuff anyway. What she’s actively denying the abuse? She’s saying all of these nice things, even though she knows this back story?

Gabe: Yes, much like.

Lisa: Ok, but if someone is actually doing that, then they clearly don’t care about you or your thoughts or your feelings. No one cares about how Jimmy feels about this. Mary is being actively mean to poor Jimmy, so I don’t think Jimmy owes her anything.

Gabe: Well, first off, Jimmy doesn’t owe her anything, I’m saying that Jimmy wants to advocate for himself. He wants to remind everybody that, hey, this person wasn’t so great. I think you’ve forgotten that.

Lisa: Ok, well, why doesn’t he say that?

Gabe: Jimmy well can. I keep asking you, how do you recommend that Jimmy remind people that this happened and this is why he feels this way?

Lisa: Exactly that way, he says, look, I understand that you all had a different relationship with this person, but this is the relationship I had and therefore I don’t really feel like saying any nice stuff right now.

Gabe: And then how does Jimmy handle it when the family turns on him, because, for example, you didn’t choose to say that because in your words, your family would come after you.

Lisa: You are completely misunderstanding this.

Gabe: Ok, then please explain it better.

Lisa: Jimmy has three options, he can either just bite his tongue and wait for it to be over. He can get up and leave and not participate, or he can say, look, stop it.

Gabe: Again, I understand that there are multiple options. That’s but I want you to respond to the option that I’m saying that Jimmy wants to choose, and your answer to that is always, well, Jimmy can choose different options.

Lisa: I don’t think the option he’s choosing is a good one.

Gabe: That doesn’t matter. That’s not the question that you were asked.

Lisa: Ok, the question is, what should he say? He should say exactly what I just said. Look, I did not have that relationship with him. He was not a good person.

Gabe: Yes, I completely agree with you, how should Jimmy handle the fallout from that?

Lisa: What is the fallout?

Gabe: The family tells Jimmy that, oh, you’re just cold hearted. You’re reacting wrong. You’re not doing it right. Why don’t you care? Oh, he asked for forgiveness for that.

Lisa: So basically, what you’re saying is the family is abusive to Jimmy.

Gabe: No, I’m not saying that at all.

Lisa: How do you figure that’s not abusive? If I tell you how I feel about someone who’s died and this is your response to what I’ve just shared with you, how is that not a horrible thing on your part? A horrible, abusive thing to say?

Gabe: I just.

Lisa: So you’re asking me how Jimmy should react to the abuse he is now suffering from his family.

Gabe: I’ve personally witnessed your family do this to you and you do not categorize it as abuse, you categorize it

Lisa: You have never witnessed this.

Gabe: Yes, I have, and you categorize it as, look, it’s not abuse, Gabe, they don’t understand, emotions run high. They see it differently. Disagreements happen. Families are complicated. By the way, I completely agree with you. All those things that you tell me are true, the fact that your aunts see your grandfather differently than you do and they tell you that is not them abusing you, it’s them disagreeing with you. It can’t possibly be abuse. When somebody disagrees with an assessment, they’re not abusing you.

Lisa: It depends.

Gabe: They just don’t think that grandpa being drunk his entire life was abusive and then telling you that is not them abusing you. And I don’t understand why you think that it is.

Lisa: Ok, but you keep flipping back and forth between this hypothetical scenario you’ve created and my family, these are not equivalents.

Gabe: Yeah, the hypothetical scenario is exactly your family.

Lisa: No, it’s not.

Gabe: Yeah, it is,

Lisa: No,

Gabe: Yes, 100 percent.

Lisa: No,

Gabe: 100 percent.

Lisa: Ok, I don’t know what to tell you. You keep flipping back and forth between these two things that are not comparable.

Gabe: They’re completely the same, the example that I’m using is an example of your family.

Lisa: My grandfather was never abusive to me.

Gabe: Being drunk is abusive, it just is. You’ve decided that abuse is only violence like hitting you. You can.

Lisa: Well, there’s other forms of abuse.

Gabe: Exactly.

Lisa: But, yeah, some sort of act of malice, yes.

Gabe: Right.

Lisa: So you think addicts being addicts is inherently abusive?

Gabe: I think that, unfortunately, the fallout of ignoring your family so that you can drink is that it causes them suffering. For example, by your own admission, your grandfather did not have a relationship with his granddaughter.

Lisa: Yeah, he made his choice.

Gabe: Right. He chose alcohol over you. I do see that as a form of abuse. I understand that you don’t. But, yeah, I look at my untreated mental illness. I look at my abuse of drugs and alcohol, and I look at the way that I treated you. I look at the way that I treated my parents, my family, my first wife, coworkers, friends. I was unequivocally abusive toward them. And anybody that says differently is just trying to make me feel better. I understand that there are extenuating circumstances with my mental illness, etc. But I had to apologize for all of them. I had to make amends for all of it because it was wrong.

Lisa: Ok.

Gabe: And I believe that the way that your grandfather acted toward you and towards the people that you love caused you trauma, I don’t see how it cannot.

Lisa: All right, so?

Gabe: But you’ve decided that your grandfather was not abusive toward you.

Lisa: I think there are a lot of levels, and this is a very complicated subject. In general, I would say that no addicts being addicts is not categorically abuse because, again, that’s what addicts do.

Gabe: So they don’t have to make amends.

Lisa: No, that’s not what I’m saying, I’m just I don’t know, I feel like the term abuse is very loaded and maybe is not the appropriate question for this.

Gabe: See, once again you’re playing a semantics argument, you know exactly what I mean,

Lisa: No, I don’t actually. Why don’t you define it?

Gabe: Whenever you’re dismissive of people that you are supposed to love, whenever you break promises, whenever you lie to, hurt, misinform, whatever word you want to use that causes pain

Lisa: Ok.

Gabe: To somebody who you are supposed to protect. Whenever you break a promise that is a form of abuse. I do recognize it’s on the low end. I’m not. This is the problem with spectrums. I don’t think that the type of abuse that your grandfather was guilty of is equivalent to a serial killer. That abuse is much, much, much worse. But I think that your mother would agree that he was an abusive father and so much so that she kept you away from him. You don’t think that has a ripple effect?

Lisa: You’re equating different relationships, though, parents have a very different obligation to their children than grandparents have to their grandchildren, or then you have to other members of your family. So what obligation do you feel that grandparents have to grandchildren?

Gabe: I believe that when you tell somebody that you love them unconditionally, that means you support everything they do. So when they have children, you must be willing to die for their children in the same way that you’d be willing to die for them. Could you imagine if your grandfather let you die and then explained to your mother, No, honey, I love you unconditionally. I just let your kid die. 

Lisa: OK.

Gabe: I don’t think your mother would say, I believe that you love me unconditionally. 

Lisa: OK.

Gabe: I believe that your mother would fully expect her parents to save her child. And I believe that you would, too. 

Lisa: Ok, so where’s the level, like, for example, parents are obligated to care for their children on a daily basis. Are grandparents obligated to do so? 

Gabe: No.

Lisa: OK, if you need a babysitter or someone to watch. Are they obligated to do these things?

Gabe: No, of course not.

Lisa: How often must grandparents see grandchildren to fulfill their grandparent-ly obligation?

Gabe: There’s no answer to that, and, you know, there’s no answer to that.

Lisa: Ok, well, but let’s follow it though then. So would you say.

Gabe: You had zero relationship with your grandfather.

Lisa: What obligation do grandparents have to grandchildren? Right. And you’re saying it is a form of abuse to shirk your obligations for your addiction. That when you choose your alcohol or your drugs over other people, that is a form of abuse. That’s what you’re saying.

Gabe: I am saying that when you choose alcohol over

Lisa: No, no, no. Is that what you’re saying? Yes, no?

Gabe: Yes.

Lisa: So when you miss your obligations to someone because of your addiction, that is abusive. But you’ve also just told me that grandparents do not, in fact, have obligations to their grandchildren,

Gabe: I didn’t say that.

Lisa: Then explain what obligation do they have. Wat obligations do grandparents have to their grandchildren? You just told me they have an obligation to save your life in imminent peril. OK, great. Yes, sure. What else you got? Are they obligated to spend time with you or are they obligated to take care of you? Are they obligated to give you money? What obligations do they have?

Gabe: I think they’re obligated to keep their promises, and I think that when their children want to keep their children away from you,

Lisa: Right,

Gabe: Then abuse happened.

Lisa: Ok, so they’re obligated to

Gabe: I’m sorry, I

Lisa: Stop. They’re obligated to keep promises, so therefore, if someone doesn’t make any promises, they have fulfilled all of their obligations.

Gabe: Yes, if you are a grandparent and you refuse to see your grandchild, you have fulfilled your obligations and are a good grandparent. That’s exactly what I’m saying.

Lisa: Ok, so this is why we’re doing this, this is reflective listening. So explain it to me. You cannot define for me any obligation that grandparents have that, for example, my grandfather did not meet. Therefore, how is that abusive? What obligation did he not meet?

Gabe: Your grandfather died and you don’t care. He did not meet the obligation where you love him.

Lisa: So grandparents are obligated to ensure love on part of their grandchildren.

Gabe: They’re obligated to have a relationship with you in some form. I do believe that, yes. And the very fact that he had none shows that something went very wrong. And I’m sorry that I don’t have, like, exact. You seem to want exact, but even America doesn’t have exact, you know, what’s the legal definition of pornography? We don’t know. But we know it when we see it. That’s the legal definition. 

Lisa: That’s a problem.

Gabe: I’m not saying that it’s good or bad. I’m just grandparents have obligations to their grandkids. I’m sorry. They just do. What those obligations are will change based on age and health and distance. I can’t say how often. My grandparents lived 400 miles away, so I only saw them eight times a year. Your other grandparents watched you every day. Your father’s parents, they watched you every day. The fact that when your grandmother died on your father’s side, you cried. I watched you cry.

Lisa: Yeah, we were very close.

Gabe: And this gentleman passes away and you’re just like, I’m apathetic. I don’t give a shit. And then you’re faking to help other family members that frankly, you don’t think should give a shit either. Tells me that they did not meet an obligation. And you’re saying, well, there is no obligation. They don’t have to love you. I don’t agree with that. I’m sorry. I just don’t agree with that. And I do worry about why you think that’s OK.

Lisa: I take exception with you say faking, it’s not faking to say I do not feel sad on my own behalf, I feel sad on your behalf. How is that faking?

Gabe: Because you didn’t say that to every member of your family.

Lisa: Now, again, what words would I need to use?

Gabe: I want to say again, you are not required to do so, I don’t think that Lisa Kiner did anything wrong utilizing this method.

Lisa: That’s not what you said earlier.

Gabe: Yes, I did, I said that is an excellent method, I am OK with it. What if you don’t want to use it and you decided that that was a personal attack, that the only reason that somebody wouldn’t want to use it is because you were wrong? No, that’s a choice that you made for you and

Lisa: Ok, but

Gabe: You are right to use it. You’re literally doing this thing where you’re like, oh, I just got myself a big bowl of chocolate ice cream. And I’m like, oh, Lisa, that is an excellent self care technique. Now, if somebody doesn’t want chocolate ice cream, what do you recommend? Well, first off, they’re allowed to have chocolate. I know. I know. I agree. They’re allowed to have chocolate. But what do you recommend for somebody that doesn’t want chocolate? Well, why would somebody pick that? You know, I take exception to you saying that people don’t want chocolate. 

Lisa: Ok, so?

Gabe: No, I just give me some other flavors.

Lisa: Ok, but what are the other flavors in this analogy?

Gabe: I don’t know, I was very specifically asking you.

Lisa: I would say that if you have made clear to your family members how you feel and they are consistently telling you you are wrong and denying how you feel, I don’t know that there is any advice for you. You’re stuck. These people are not doing right by you. These are not people that are showing you the appropriate amount of family love. So at this point, you can decide if you’re going to tolerate that or not.

Gabe: But we’re all going to tolerate it, Lisa. And that is not the choice that you and I have made in our own families. And you and I do not think our families are abusive toward us. We just don’t.

Lisa: Never once has a family member said to me, oh, my God, you should really care more about this. No. No one has ever said that to me.

Gabe: In so many ways, I agree with you, as you know, we’re playing devil’s advocate because that’s kind of what we do to hash this stuff out. But this idea that just because your family is like low grade abusive or does stuff that you don’t like, you and I both tolerate this in our own families. And we argue back and forth on whether or not it’s abusive. But let’s go ahead and say that it is. I’m still not going to cut my family off. You’re not going to cut your family off. What do you recommend for those people in order to keep their family and their mental health?

Lisa: Limit exposure.

Gabe: Well, OK. But you can’t limit your exposure all the time.

Lisa: Then maybe you can’t keep your mental health. You know, if you’re saying, look, my family is abusive, but I cannot limit my exposure to them. You’re in a bad position. You’re trapped. I don’t know that there is any solution for you. I would say, why can’t you limit your exposure? Surely there is a mechanism for you to do that. We all decide what we’re willing to tolerate from our families. And some things you just roll your eyes or grit your teeth. I think everyone is making these same decisions all the time with their families. And once again, it doesn’t matter that this is related to death. It’s the exact same process.

Gabe: We have talked about this a lot, how to manage your family and manage their expectations, manage your expectations within your family, how to get along, etc., and I think you’re right. Do you think that the fact that it has to do with death adds maybe another element that puts people on edge and maybe that makes it a little more difficult?

Lisa: It makes it more difficult, but the concept is the same. It makes emotion higher, it makes it harder to do. But the base concept of you have decided in your mind what you’re willing to tolerate and what you’re not. Grit your teeth or walk away. There’s only two choices. You cannot control the behavior of other people. If they continue doing this thing that you find objectionable, is that a deal breaker for you? Are you out or are you going to find a way to survive it?

Gabe: Lisa, I really like the word that you use there: survive. Like it’s a big word on one hand because like you, you survive a car crash. You survive your cruise ship sinking, you survive COVID. But survival exists on so many levels. I mean, you survive with your mental health. You survive inside the confines of your family. You survive for 39 days on an island and you outwit and outlast and outplay. It can mean many things, but I think it’s kind of a powerful word and sort of that kind of thing that you say to yourself in the mirror to psych yourself up. I will survive my family. I will survive this. I will get through to the next stage. I think we are survivors. That’s a number one thing that I say about people who are living with mental illness is that we know how to survive.

Lisa: I actually was thinking about re-recording that line, I think survivor might be a little bit too strong because it does have this connotation of life and death and maybe it’s more of a get through or tolerate or live with or make the best of.

Gabe: But listen, when you’re getting ready to go and when you’re leaving your house, your bedroom, your town, your car, and you say I will survive, that feels much better than I will tolerate. So I

Lisa: There’s more drama to it, yes.

Gabe: But I mean, we need a mantra. We need a mantra to get through these tough conversations and these things that happen.

Lisa: The thing to get through it is to say this will pass

Gabe: Yeah, this will pass.

Lisa: Here I am with my family and frankly, this isn’t part of my regular life. My regular life is at my house with my chosen family and in my day to day life. This is just the aberration I go through for visits.

Gabe: Well, listen, this, too, shall pass and I will survive, it does sound better than this too shall pass. I will tolerate.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah, little drama queen, but OK.

Gabe: I mean, well, I am what I am.

Lisa: Yes, you are, and that’s why we all love you and I love doing the show.

Gabe: Oh, I love doing the show with you, too, Lisa. I am the author of Mental Illness Is an Asshole and Other Observations. There is time to get it for the holidays, so order it now on Amazon.com. Or if you want show stickers, you want me to sign it and you want a whole bunch of cool free swag, head over to gabehoward.com right now.

Lisa: Don’t forget to listen to the outtake and we’ll see you next Tuesday.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Not Crazy Podcast from Psych Central. For free mental health resources and online support groups, visit PsychCentral.com. Not Crazy’s official website is PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy. To work with Gabe, go to gabehoward.com. Want to see Gabe and me in person?  Not Crazy travels well. Have us record an episode live at your next event. E-mail show@psychcentral.com for details. 

 The post Podcast: Grieving and Radical Honesty first appeared on World of Psychology.

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Podcast: Family Perspective on Mental Illness

What’s it like growing up with a sibling with mental illness? In today’s show, we hear it straight from Gabe’s little sister Debbie, who shares what it was like living with Gabe well before anyone knew he had bipolar disorder. 

Join us for a great discussion on mental health issues in families. While it’s always hard, there is often a silver lining.

(Transcript Available Below)

Please Subscribe to Our Show: And We Love Written Reviews! 

About The Not Crazy podcast Hosts

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from Gabe Howard. To learn more, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

        Lisa is the producer of the Psych Central podcast, Not Crazy. She is the recipient of The National Alliance on Mental Illness’s “Above and Beyond” award, has worked extensively with the Ohio Peer Supporter Certification program, and is a workplace suicide prevention trainer. Lisa has battled depression her entire life and has worked alongside Gabe in mental health advocacy for over a decade. She lives in Columbus, Ohio, with her husband; enjoys international travel; and orders 12 pairs of shoes online, picks the best one, and sends the other 11 back.

    Computer Generated Transcript for “Family Mental Illness” Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Lisa: You’re listening to Not Crazy, a Psych Central podcast hosted by my ex-husband, who has bipolar disorder. Together, we created the mental health podcast for people who hate mental health podcasts.

Gabe: Welcome to this week’s episode of the Not Crazy podcast, I’m your host, Gabe Howard, and with me, as always, is the awe-inspiring Lisa Kiner.

Debbie: Yeah, I don’t think so, I’m not Lisa.

Gabe: Well, then, who are you?

Debbie: I’m Debbie, your little sister.

Gabe: Oh, my little sister is on the show, you know, we pick on you a lot, but where is Lisa?

Debbie: She left.

Gabe: She’s left before and she’s always come back. So, I think we’ll be OK here. For all of our listeners, she has only left for one episode. I promise she will be back next week. I wanted to have Debbie because as longtime listeners of the show know my little sister and well, really my family, but definitely my little sister and my mom both take a huge beating. And since my mother wasn’t available, Debbie gets to help co-host the Not Crazy podcast. Debbie, welcome.

Debbie: Well, thank you for having me. I will do my best.

Gabe: Now, Lisa usually has a quote, have you prepared a quote for the listeners?

Debbie: Don’t eat yellow snow?

Gabe: All right, Lisa definitely puts more effort into it.

Debbie: Well, maybe if you would have given me a little advance notice?

Gabe: Oh, yeah, advance notice is really not part of the, part of the process, we really like to put people on the spot and then just be like, ha ha, gotcha.

Debbie: Yes, as your text this morning indicated.

Gabe: We’re part of the gotcha, the gotcha podcast media. We’re fake podcasts. No,

Debbie: Wow.

Gabe: I’m just kidding. We’re as real as they can be. We can even say things like bullshit, but not the F word. So now, you know, moving forward. Debbie, I wanted to have you on here because we talk about our families a lot, Lisa and me. We just, we see things through our experiences. But you have a unique perspective because you watched me grow up as my younger sister. Now, Debbie is five and a half years younger. She is my baby sister. I think that gets maybe missed a little bit. So, when I was 14 and going through a really troubling times, you would have been eight.

Debbie: Something like that,

Gabe: Does the math hold?

Debbie: Don’t make me math. Come on.

Gabe: We all went to public school. We’re not good at this. Education was not a priority in the Howard household in the early 90s.

Gabe: Debbie, what was it like? What do you remember about your big brother, Gabe? I know you’ve talked before about how you looked up to me. I was just your big brother. There was no concept of mental illness or bipolar disorder or even a problem. But you do remember some less than positive things from our childhood that had to do with me and our parents. Tell that story, or any of the stories.

Debbie: Like you said, I was very young and self-involved, my life was my best friend and I think I spent more time at her house than our house. However, I do remember a couple incidences that, looking back, can only be attributed to being an untreated bipolar. I know there was the time and it was when we were living at Karl Road, so I was in elementary school.

Gabe: Yeah, that would put me in high school.

Debbie: And I can remember you did something. You got in trouble for something, I don’t know what it was, but I could hear you down in the basement and you were just heart wrenching sobs, screams. Like not angry screams, but like just some heart wrenching, like being down there was going to kill you or something. And.

Gabe: Now, my bedroom was in the basement, so

Debbie: Yes.

Gabe: We should point that out, mom and dad did not put me in the basement. I was in the basement. That’s where my room was.

Debbie: Yes,

Gabe: Yeah.

Debbie: Your room is down there. You were probably just told to go to your room for something, but I could hear you upstairs. I remember turning to Mom and like what’s going on? You know, what’s wrong with Gabe? And she’s like, this doesn’t concern you. Story of my life being divided. Anything that’s not pleasant, we don’t share. So, I was just told to go outside because I couldn’t take the screams and the cries anymore. But I honestly don’t know what happened.

Gabe: And I don’t think anybody else does either. One of the things that I remember from my perspective, of course, is something would happen and the something that would happen, would always be, frankly, uneventful. It’d be stupid, you know, had dessert when I wasn’t supposed to, you know, got into the Little Debbie snacks. Oh, the horror, you know, back talked. It would always be something small. This would always end up in the same place with me feeling dejected, abandoned, alone. I think other people would just bounce back. Other kids would just be like, well, got caught, you know, time to move on and got to be better at this in the future. Other families, I don’t think went through this, but I was always and, Debbie, I can’t even put into words these memories of just being alone, rocking back and forth, screaming. And I felt that nobody was ever going to love me ever again. And from Mom and Dad’s perspective, they were just like, well, this is a temper tantrum. From my perspective, the death of my family occurred because I was, I was now, I don’t know, like excommunicated from the family. And it would take hours for this to work itself out or wind down. And then we’d all just go along like nothing ever happened. That was how I always remembered it. I was abandoned and alone for, you know, four to five hours screaming in the basement. Mom and Dad would ignore me. My mood would eventually cycle and then we’d all pretend nothing happened. What was it like for you? This cycle playing out over and over and over again for you to watch without anybody ever telling you why this was occurring?

Debbie: Well, you begin to think it’s normal, it’s the Leave it to Beaver, we don’t talk about anything that is uncomfortable. We don’t air our dirty laundry to others. You know, it’s.

Gabe: But we don’t even air it to ourselves,

Debbie: Well, yeah.

Gabe: It’s really weird that I find myself here. Like, hey, Gabe, you can discuss all the things that we screwed up in your childhood live on the air on a podcast listened to by tens of thousands of people? No problem. But all the way back then, Debbie would say, hey, what’s wrong with my big brother and Mom and Dad would be like, don’t worry about it. We’re not going to discuss it. That’s a weird dichotomy, right?

Debbie: I think it was more along the lines of you were in trouble, if you don’t want to be in trouble too, then you need to mind your own business. This doesn’t involve you.

Gabe: Yeah, but nobody else behaves this way. When you got in trouble, you didn’t go to your room and scream, cry for six hours.

Debbie: No, no. I might have cried, but that’s normal.

Gabe: Did Billy do this? You’re the baby, you’re the youngest. I have a middle brother. Did Billy ever behave this way when he got in trouble?

Debbie: I remember one time when he got in trouble and Mom went to spank him with the infamous wooden paddle,

Gabe: Yes, the Board of Education.

Debbie: And every time she went to swing, he made this high pitch funny noise and it got her to where she was bursting out laughing and she could not spank him because he would jump up like a cartoon character and make a funny noise. And she was laughing too hard. I remember that. So that’s what you got to do.

Gabe: I’m the oldest, you’re the youngest, there was three of us, and when I looked at the two of you, my younger siblings, you didn’t have these problems with Mom and Dad. And as an adult, looking back, it’s because the two of you knew when to shut up. I could not get out of the feedback loop. Every time I opened my mouth, Dad would ground me for another week and I kept going for so long. Mom pointed out to dad, we’re into years now. Gabe is grounded for years. She was finally able to separate us. But, Debbie, this had to be awful to watch. I mean, me, Mom and Dad, we fought my entire childhood until I finally left home and I left home before I graduated high school because the arguing was so incredible and so pointless and so unproductive. Really was just so unproductive that I had to leave. Why were you told that I left home? All of a sudden your older brother is gone and he’s moving in with grandma and grandpa and now you and Billy are left behind. So, did Mom and Dad ever sit you down and be like, hey, we got rid of Gabe?

Debbie: No, they didn’t. It was just Gabe’s going to move in with Grandma and Grandpa, and I’m sure I asked why, but I don’t have any recollection of an actual answer. It was just Gabe’s going to live with Grandma and Grandpa. I was like, well, I didn’t know that was an option. Grandma gives me spaghetti O’s.

Gabe: Yeah, I’m the favorite it’s only an option for me. Was that ever addressed in the family?

Debbie: I don’t think so.

Gabe: I was gone, did you wonder why?

Debbie: I mean, I did, but, you know, I was given your email address so we could keep in contact.

Gabe: But that wouldn’t even be right away because I didn’t get e-mail until my second year.

Debbie: Trying to think if we wrote letters like physical letters, because, you know, that’s what people did in our olden days.

Gabe: In our olden days? Wow, wow,

Debbie: Yeah.

Gabe: Gabe and Debbie are so old, we remember when there was no Internet.

Debbie: That’s accurate. We’re older than Google.

Gabe: We’re older than Google. Wow, wow, we’re older than Yahoo!

Debbie: Yeah.

Gabe: So here’s another interesting thing, let’s talk about that for a moment. So I got the great idea, Mom and Dad, I stole from Mom and Dad. Let’s just open that, like, right up. I want to own that. I would get into Dad’s wallet, Mom’s purse. I would figure out where they kept money. This is a long time ago. There was more of a cash economy back then. So people kept cash on them a lot more than they do now. And I would steal the money and I would use it to buy pizza. Basically, I stole money for food.

Debbie: In your defense, I do remember a time that I looked in coat pockets and found.

Gabe: But that was for like change,

Debbie: Yeah,

Gabe: Did you ever go in Mom’s purse?

Debbie: No, no, no purse off limits.

Gabe: You ever go in Dad’s wallet?

Debbie: No.

Gabe: No, no, that was a

Debbie: Didn’t matter whose coat it was, I did look in coat pockets.

Gabe: That was a spare change thing. Thank you for trying to make my. Yeah, it was not a good scam. Mom and dad knew how much money they had in their wallets. And the first time you did it, they were just like I thought I had more. But, hey, maybe I stopped and picked up milk on the way. But eventually they set me up. I got caught. They knew that I was stealing the money. Mom and Dad started locking their bedroom door so that I could not steal the money anymore. OK, no problem. This can be solved by shoving your tiny baby sister through the master bath window and having her unlock the bedroom door. You can steal all the money that you want, then just lock it all back up. And when mom and dad are like, where is this money going? They think, well, it can’t be stolen because after all, we had it locked up in our bedroom. Nobody could get in. Now, this worked perfectly. We never got caught. We confessed to this as adults years later. Perfect plan. But here’s the interesting thing. We did this together

Debbie: Oh, yeah.

Gabe: And we didn’t get caught. So Mom and Dad didn’t have any parenting to do. We were adults when this came out. But they still very much believe that this was an example of me corrupting you. Why is that?

Debbie: Because I was too young to know any better,

Gabe: Really?

Debbie: Hey, if I was small enough to fit through a bathroom window, I was young.

Gabe: First off, you’re tiny, I think you would fit through that window now.

Debbie: Well, maybe not now I’ve got 30 pounds of pandemic weight on.

Gabe: Ok, before the pandemic, I think you would have fit through that window,

Debbie: Maybe.

Gabe: I know you only have one kid, Debbie, so this is difficult, but, you know, go into the future and pretend you got a second kid and both of them together, break into your room and steal money. Do you just blame one kid and give the other kid a complete pass, or are you mad at both of them?

Debbie: I would be mad at both, but I’d probably be more upset with the older one simply because they’re older and should be providing a good example. Even if the younger one was like, hey, let’s do this, the older one should be like, no, that that’s wrong.

Gabe: See what a mess this is.

Debbie: Yeah,

Gabe: See how hard it is to be me? Not only did I have a horrible illness that nobody noticed, but I was also responsible for helping raise my siblings. My siblings were a mess because I was their example. And Mom and Dad are like, wow, I can’t believe they had to watch this. You know, Debbie, I think you turned out pretty good. You’re the only college graduate, 10 years in the military. You’ve only been married once. I mean, just. You’re welcome. You’re welcome.

Debbie: Well, I always looked up to you.

Gabe: The example that I set for you was clearly perfect.

Debbie: Well, you know, you learn a lot from others, whether it be what to do or what not to do.

Gabe: Wow. Oh, I, I hate you so much right now,

Debbie: I’m sorry. It’s true, though. I’m not saying that I looked to you and say, OK, I don’t want to do that. No, that’s not true. I actually have always looked up to you. I still look up to you to this day.

Gabe: Well, I appreciate that, but it’s for what not to do, right?

Debbie: Well, no, but there are things that you learn what not to do from others. It was one of the things of when I was in the military, I had gotten some bad leaders and I was like, well, I’m going to learn from this leader. I’m learning that I do not want to do that when I become one. And I think that’s everybody. You know, you learn from your environment regardless.

Gabe: So we’ve established that you’re hanging on to this idea that, yeah, Gabe was kind of screwed up as a kid, our family didn’t handle it very well. Mom and Dad didn’t talk about it. But then you became an adult, I got diagnosed and then our family really embraced it. That is the segue into now adult Debbie. Be honest, before I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, did you have any understanding of severe and persistent mental illness whatsoever? Did you know the signs? Did you understand suicidality? Would you have been a good advocate for somebody who was sick before I was diagnosed?

Debbie: No, because my only knowledge was Hollywood.

Gabe: Yeah, and they do, they do a bang-up job,

Debbie: Oh, yeah, well, Hollywood and then when it comes to suicide, my only thing is don’t do it or you’ll go to hell.

Gabe: Oh, yeah, that’s fantastic.

Debbie: The Catholic upbringing, you know.

Gabe: Yeah, yeah, there’s a lot to unpack there, but then I got diagnosed and it became personal. It wasn’t just this nebulous concept of mental illness and suicidality. You weren’t talking about it in the abstract anymore. All of those words now applied to Gabe. They applied to your brother. They applied to somebody that you knew and loved and had a personal relationship. Did this change the way that you investigated and learned about mental health, mental illness and suicide?

Debbie: Oh, absolutely. For starters, when I first learned of your diagnosis, and you’d sent me links, you’re like, go read about it, go attend this class. And I would do that. And I’m like, what is this? It just doesn’t make sense to me. And I learned more actually reading your blogs, maybe because they’re so raw and unfiltered and because there are certain things that you and I, we just don’t talk about. I will admit that I skipped some of the blogs because there’s still some things I don’t need to know when it comes to my big brother. Some stories I know from listening to podcasts, and I can’t burn them out of my head, but.

Gabe: Yes. Hey, listen, if it makes you feel any better, the day that Mom told me about you buying French lingerie and how expensive it was and when Mom told me that, Debbie, tell the French lingerie story.

Debbie: Oh, my gosh, so I was stationed in Germany. Friends came to visit and we decided to do a night overnight trip to Paris because it was a train ride away. And while there, I was like, you know what? I am going to buy some nice French lingerie to have because I can. Because, you know, it just seemed like that was my picture of French people. Anyways.

Gabe: So you spent how much on this lingerie set?

Debbie: I don’t even remember, but it was.

Gabe: A ghastly amount,

Debbie: It was way too much. Yes.

Gabe: And so Mom is telling me this story about my baby sister going to Paris and purchasing French lingerie, and she’s telling the story as, oh, can you believe that your sister paid so much and went to the sale rack? And when Mom was done, I said, why is Debbie buying lingerie? And Mom said, Well, I. And Mom’s like your sister is grown and she is a woman. I’m like, I don’t want to hear that. This is too much, I don’t, and we change the subject. So years later, poor Debbie is listening to a podcast on hypersexuality and starts hearing some of these stories. And she’s like, why did I have to hear this? And when we were talking about it, I said to Debbie, Well, there is that time you bought lingerie. And Debbie is like you think those are equivalent? And I’m like, well, kind of. I think that the trauma might be the same. We’ll be back in a minute after we hear from our sponsor.

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Gabe: We’re back talking mental health with my baby sister, Debbie Wyatt. One of the things that you told me is that having this knowledge really allowed you to help many of your students. Now, the average onset of mental illness is 16 to 24. So, Debbie, as a college professor, you are right in line with the average age of symptoms coming out. And you’ve been very helpful to many of your students who, well, frankly, need guidance because there’s just not a lot of guidance out there.

Debbie: Yeah, as a college instructor, I teach a bunch of different classes and I also teach emergency medical response. And some of my classes, they have strict attendance policies. And in the past, when I first started teaching so students might say, oh, well, I had to miss these days, I just wasn’t feeling well. And I’m like, oh, excuses, excuses. I had the military mentality, the army mentality of, you know, just get it done, do what you have to do. Don’t be late. It’s kind of drilled in which was hard to overcome. And especially, you know, I’ve got my own standards, like, well, if I could do it, you can do it.

Gabe: Right.

Debbie: But that’s not the case. Everybody is not the same. Everybody doesn’t test the same. Everybody doesn’t learn the same. I mean, I learned that in college. You know, you’ve got auditory learners, kinesthetic learners, visual learners. Some people can only learn one way, while others can learn all the ways or a variety of which. And I came to learn as I got to know more about mental health and your life. So, whenever students would approach me and be like, look, I couldn’t come to class yesterday, like if they would say, so I just I couldn’t get out of bed, past me would have been like, well, that you missed class then. But now I’m like, OK, talk to me. Of course, if they don’t talk to me, I can’t help them. I can’t work with them if they don’t have a conversation with me. So, I had a student in my current class who emailed me. It was like, I know I have not been in class. I’ve been going through some mental health issues. That’s what the email said. And can I still pass this class to graduate this year? Now, the past may have been like, no, there’s nothing you can do. But now I know it’s like, you know what? Especially during a pandemic, sometimes even me who I do not have a mental illness. But I’ve experienced so much anxiety this year since the shutdown that I can understand it even more than just what I’ve learned from you and from your influence. So I emailed him back. I’m like, absolutely, do what you can, you know, what can I do to help? We’ve got resources on campus. Sent an email saying, contact this person, this person, or if all else fails, you could qualify for a hardship retroactive withdrawal to where having a bad semester due to your mental health will not affect your grades. You shouldn’t have to because you can’t help that.

Gabe: One of the things that many people with mental illness push up against is that we don’t learn about those things, we don’t learn about the retroactive hardship withdrawal. People aren’t racing to help us, whereas we see our peers, they write in and they say, you know, hey, I got in a car accident, I broke my leg or I was diagnosed with anything and any physical illness. And that really threw me through a loop. Or I’ve spent a lot of time with this or even I had a loved one who was moved into hospice in this. And we see all of these things and people are just coming out of the woodwork to help make life better for them. And I firmly support that. Like, I like this about the world. I don’t know when we got so the real world doesn’t give second chances. That’s bullshit. I watch sports all the time. There’s second chances all the time. There’s four downs in football. That’s four chances. Right. The world doesn’t give second, that’s not true. People file bankruptcy all the time and go on to lead great lives. I just people get divorced and remarried. That’s a second chance. Where did we get this idea that the world doesn’t give second chances? But putting that aside for a moment, I am firmly for that for people with mental health issues because it’s a real issue, just like being diagnosed with a physical health condition.

Gabe: But we don’t get it. And what happens, Debbie, of course, is the problem is compounded. We come to you and we say we’re having a mental health issue. Can you help us? And you say, no, this is the real world. Well, you’re our instructor. We believe that what you are saying is now true, that the real world doesn’t care about my condition and will not help me. So, unfortunately, a lot of people in your position have just told me, a vulnerable student looking at an authority figure like, you know, Professor Debbie. And we’re like, well, we might as well not try to get a job. My professor said, the world doesn’t care about me. I might as well not try to graduate because my professor said the world doesn’t care about me. Do you see the difference? And what are your thoughts on that? Because your students do kind of look at you like, you know, doughy, wide eyed and, well, stupid, and you’re guiding them in a much better direction. That’s going to ensure that they’re not just sitting at home saying, well, some professor told me that the real world won’t help me, so I’m not even going to try.

Debbie: You know, and unfortunately, there are professors and teachers out there who, in my opinion, shouldn’t even be in the teaching profession if they have that type of mentality. I know exactly what you mean and especially at the college level, because at universities, the people who are teaching a lot of the classes, especially ones with doctorates, they are experts in the field, whatever it is, you know, psychology, physics, chemistry, whatnot, they’re the experts. This is what they do. But they’ve never been taught how to teach, never been taught how to work with students and their needs. And I know here at my university, we do work on that. Our president has sent out emails, the dean of students has sent out emails, especially now. And I really do think the silver lining of this pandemic is that it has brought more people understanding that mental health is a serious thing and a lot of people are affected by it. And we need to do our part to contribute to the health portion of it, not the illness portion of it. And by laying down those strict guidelines like, no, I’m not going to let you take this test. No, I’m not going to work with you on that. That doesn’t help the student learn. It doesn’t help the student in life. Working with them, doing what you can on your part to help them succeed is what’s important. And I, I know that there are other instructors and professors out there who feel the same way. Unfortunately, it’s not all of them.

Gabe: I obviously understand this concept of the world has to work the same way for people with mental illness as it does for people without mental illness. I certainly wouldn’t want to go to a doctor that the only reason they got their medical license is because they just kept claiming that they had mental illness or legitimately had mental illness. So they kept getting passed over and over again. I just want to take a second and talk about that for a moment, because obviously, just like physical health challenges can prevent you from doing the things that you want to do. Mental health challenges can prevent you from doing the things that you want to do. How do you balance that? Because I know, Debbie, that you don’t want an EMT that just got a pass because they had, you know, bipolar disorder. I don’t and I don’t want anybody listening to this to think, oh, well, I can get anything I want if I just claim that I have bipolar disorder or legitimately have bipolar, just like like

Debbie: It’s not getting what you want, it’s getting the opportunity to be able to learn to the best of your ability. It’s why we have students with disabilities resources here, for instance, you know, and this goes into more cognitive features. But I had a student one time who she could not read a test question and understand what it said. So she did not do well on tests, but because she went to the students with disabilities resources and got registered there, she therefore was given the permission to have somebody read her the questions because she could visualize it if it was read to her and she could understand it. And this goes for lots of things. I had a student one time who because I had a strict attendance policy, she had registered with students with disability services. So they don’t exactly tell you. They just say, please allow for the student to have more absences than normal. And the student came to talk to me is like, look, sometimes I just can’t get out of bed. You don’t have to report me. I promise you I will be here when I can. And I immediately I’m like, I’m here for you. You know, what can we do to make sure that you learn what you need to learn from this class? That’s all it is. It’s about giving the students the opportunity to learn by their best means.

Gabe: There’s a famous Einstein quote that I always butcher, and it basically says that if the test for intelligence was climbing a tree, all fish would believe they were stupid. And, you know, I think about that a lot because, you know, oftentimes the way that we design learning is for the largest common denominator.

Debbie: Mm hmm,

Gabe: Right? We’re designing learning for everybody.

Debbie: You teach to the middle.

Gabe: Yeah, well, but there’s got to be somebody that’s on the margins. There’s got to be somebody that doesn’t learn that way that could still absolutely do incredible things if they were given the opportunity. I appreciate what you’re saying, because I know that there’s a lot of listeners that want to try college. They want to try getting a job. They want to try doing a lot of things. But so many people in their lives have told them that it’s not for them, it’s not for them. They can’t do it. The real world won’t help you. There’s no such thing as accommodations. Nobody’s going to give you a second chance that, you know, then there’s all kinds of other stigma and discrimination that comes into it. You’re too emotional. You’re too whiny. You need to be babied and mocking and on and on and on. And I just feel so bad because at one point all of that stuff applied to Gabe. It all applied to Gabe Howard. And if I wouldn’t have had other people to balance that out and say, no, Gabe, that’s not true, you need to get back on the horse. You need to try again. You need to start over and find where you fit. I would be what? Probably sitting on your couch right now. I mean, it’s always the baby sister that ends up taking in the ne’er do well sibling. But I heard that a lot. And those voices are loud. Those voices are loud and you already feel like garbage. What advice do you have to people listening that are afraid to take that step because they’re afraid of running into the people like you described, the people who are going to be like, look, I’m not helping you. If you can’t do it, screw you, you fail. How do they advocate for themselves? What can they do if they run into the not Debbie, but the opposite of Debbie?

Debbie: I’m really glad that you asked me that, because especially from a university point of view, what I can say is if you’ve got something going, go talk to your teacher, you know, at the beginning of class, introduce yourself, let them know that you really want to learn, that you’re there. Whatever you feel comfortable telling them, you, by all means, do not need to tell them a thing. But I find that I’m more willing to work with somebody who is going to open up a line of communication with me, because if I hear absolutely nothing from a student and they don’t drop me a line to say anything, then it’s like, well, I mean, I don’t know what’s going on. I don’t know how I can help you. And I do my best to reach out to students as well. It’s hard in the online setting, but if you’ve got something going on, talk to your teacher. Let them know. If you are at a university, look up students with disabilities. It’ll be called something along those lines. At the bare minimum, at all public universities, I would assume private as well. But I don’t know. I don’t work in a private institution.

Debbie: But look that up. You would be surprised how much it can be helpful in your college career, because, for instance, if you get test anxiety, you sit down, you get that time test, 30 minutes. Oh, my goodness, I’m never going to get through this. And by the time you’ve gone through the mental block of dealing with a 30 minute time limit, ten minutes have gone by. So now you have a 20 minute time limit and that can be accommodated for, you know, they can offer a low stimulus environment to where you take your tests, not in the classroom, but at one of their facilities. They can offer time and a half where you get a little bit more time on the test because you’re learning and giving your knowledge the same way. It just might take you a little more time to process it, to deal with anxiety or anything. But just talk to your teachers. University specific, go see the students disabilities resource. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you have a disability. It just means that you will learn better with some specific accommodations. That’s all that really means.

Gabe: I like how you told people not to get hung up on words, you know, so often we’re like, well, I’m not disabled, I don’t have a disability. I fight this all the time in mental health advocacy where instead of looking to solve the problem, we’re all fighting about what to call it. Let’s not get hung up on the names of things, because once you achieve that goal, you won’t care what the name of the organization, group or department is that you went through to get to where you want to be. Not to take it away from college, Debbie, which is very, very important. But in jobs, careers, et cetera, go to human resources. Go to human resources, sit down and say, hey, look, I need this extra accommodation. There’s all kinds of laws for reasonable accommodations. And, you know, nine times out of ten, your employer is very interested in giving you what you need to be productive. They don’t care that you need something that the other employees don’t if that thing that they give you makes you more productive. At the end of the day, you’re there to accomplish something for them. If you have an open dialog with them and that helps you accomplish it, you know, they’re very good. Now, we understand stigma. Discrimination is a very, very real thing, which is why I recommend going to these services, going to the College Department of Disability, going to Human Resources, you know, bypassing your coworker, supervisor, professors, et cetera, and starting the conversation over there. That way you have an advocate and you have assistance. If you do feel comfortable, and again, it’s a personal choice, you can absolutely talk to your supervisor or to your professor. And hopefully whomever you talk to has a brother with bipolar disorder who’s, like, really learned the ropes.

Debbie: That is helpful. I’m not going to lie.

Gabe: Debbie, you know these are tough questions when we talk about families. But do you think that my behavior traumatized you in any way? Do you ever look back at your childhood and think, you know, that was, that was a lot going through that with my brother? That was a lot.

Debbie: I do not. Of course, I look at my childhood a lot differently than you look at your childhood.

Gabe: Yeah, my childhood was horrific,

Debbie: Yeah.

Gabe: Like it was awful. You were a bright spot, you were good.

Debbie: We had a great relationship. You were my first word, you

Gabe: That’s true.

Debbie: Got me out of my crib every day.

Gabe: I did. Dropped her right on her head every morning.

Debbie: No, but, you know, we’ve always had a great relationship. Even the few times that we butt heads, I mean, but that’s what siblings do.

Gabe: Debbie, I’m glad that it didn’t affect you. I really, truly am. Of course, it would be perfectly understandable if it did, and it often does in many families, you know, siblings get left behind because all the resources are going to well, the troublemaker, the sick person. It’s not an uncommon story for siblings to be, frankly, traumatized by this. I’m glad that it didn’t impact you, but I guess I am surprised. I would think that just witnessing some of these things would be problematic. Maybe I prepared you for war. I don’t know.

Debbie: Well, you know, the eyes of a child, when you’re at that age that I was, in elementary school, that’s your me time, like everything’s focused on me. You haven’t evolved to the point where you start thinking about we.

Gabe: My behavior was very confusing to Mom and Dad. Yeah. It was just very confusing to them. And I’m really surprised that it didn’t impact you more. Do you think that mom and Dad could have handled it better talking to you? And I know we’re kind of throwing them under the bus because they’re not here to defend themselves, but they told you nothing. I mean, your brother just up and left one day and they told you nothing. It doesn’t seem like it impacted you in any way. And for that, I’m very grateful. But it could have, leaving that kind of thing open. That could be a really big deal.

Debbie: That is our family, though, they never talk about things that are uncomfortable or could make people feel sad. They try to spare everybody’s feelings. Doesn’t matter what it is, somebody is in the hospital. Don’t tell Gabe because he’s up in Ohio. He can’t go anyways. He doesn’t need to know. It’ll just be or don’t tell Debbie she’s over in Germany that Gabe was put in a hospital because he was suicidal. Let’s not tell her. She’s not around. She doesn’t need to know. You know, I do wish they would have had the conversations because maybe I could have been enlightened earlier.

Gabe: Maybe it could have helped.

Debbie: Yeah, maybe, I don’t know, but because we had a special relationship, I don’t know, I do feel that I do wish they would have had more of those difficult conversations with us. Luckily, I still turned out OK for the most part.

Gabe: Eh.

Debbie: Yeah, I’ll keep it. Pretty well.

Gabe: Well, you know, Debbie, you turned out great and, you know, people listen to the show and I, Debbie, I talk about my family on the show all the time. And it is funny to hear you say, my family doesn’t talk about anything. We don’t want to make anybody, because you are 100% right. Everything that you said is true. But when I came to them and I was like, hey, I want to tell all the family secrets publicly, they’re like, do it. And I was like, OK, well, we might be embarrassed. And they were like, well, we don’t want other families to have the same problems as us. We’re strangely not shy people. You know, Mom bursts out singing opera in the middle of a department store just like it’s nothing. I just we’ve had public fights that nobody cares about. We’re loud people. But I’m really glad that you got to come on here, because I think sometimes people think that all I do with my family is we just fight, we just fight. And we’ve come up with all these clever ways not to fight, but really it’s just all passive aggressive and we’re ignoring the elephant in the room. And while that is true, that that is how we behaved as children, let’s talk about our adult life for a minute. I don’t think we ignore elephants in the room anymore. I think we’ve matured past that as a family. And while certainly sometimes, you know, Mom’s like, well, Grandma got sick last night, but I called you this morning, so you didn’t worry. OK, OK. But before I would have found out days later.

Debbie: When she was better.

Gabe: Yeah, there’s still a little bit, but I think mostly we pull the Band-Aid off a lot quicker. Do you think we’ve matured as a family compared to how we behaved when we were younger?

Debbie: One hundred percent. I mean, Mom will tell me something I’m like, have you told Gabe yet? Like, yep, he’s either he he’s my next call or I called him first. It’s like all right, don’t hide it.

Gabe: Yeah, I’m really glad that you said that, don’t hide it, you’re right, we figured it out that this was problematic and we say things like don’t hide it, don’t sugarcoat it, let’s get it out of the way. I do think that all families should do this. I am glad that you came on so that people know that we do have the tough conversations. We just, we don’t have them during Thanksgiving dinner.

Debbie: Right. 

Gabe: That’s noodle time.

Debbie: Noodles.

Gabe: That’s noodle time. Debbie, I love you so much.

Debbie: I love you too.

Gabe: I’m glad that you came on the show. How did it feel to be the Lisa? Man, I wish this was a video podcast that look that you gave me, I just oh, I should have taken a picture. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening to this week’s episode of the Not Crazy podcast. Special thanks to my sister for pinch hitting for Lisa, who I promise will be back next week. My name is Gabe Howard. I am the author of Mental Illness Is an Asshole and Other Observations, which of course is available on Amazon.com. But if you want to get it cheaper, if you want me to sign it and you want Not Crazy podcast swag, then all you have to do is head over to gabehoward.com and buy it right there. It makes a great holiday gift. We’ll see everybody next Tuesday.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Not Crazy Podcast from Psych Central. For free mental health resources and online support groups, visit PsychCentral.com. Not Crazy’s official website is PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy. To work with Gabe, go to gabehoward.com. Want to see Gabe and me in person?  Not Crazy travels well. Have us record an episode live at your next event. E-mail show@psychcentral.com for details. 

   The post Podcast: Family Perspective on Mental Illness first appeared on World of Psychology.

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Podcast: Reframing Past Traumas

What is your life story? Do you feel like a victim of your circumstances? And if so, how does this affect your future? In today’s show, our guest James Sweigert, who struggled out of a traumatic childhood, shares how the power of his thoughts and the spoken word changed his life. 

Are you ready to make some edits to your life story? Tune in and James will help you go from your head to your heart so you can win the game.

SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW

  Guest information for ‘James Sweigert- Reframing Traumas’ Podcast Episode

James Sweigert’s childhood was challenging, to say the least. James struggled to be seen and stay safe amid the chaos, eventually turning to drugs and alcohol to cope. This self-destructive pattern continued until he changed his story—and his life. 

Today James is a successful executive producer and director in film and television and coaches many creative executives and celebrities in Hollywood. He has built, run and sold several multi-million dollar, award winning production companies in Hollywood. He writes about a key truth: the way you conceptualize your life—the story you tell yourself—makes it what it is. If you say so.

As a motivational speaker and “Life Cheerleader”, James’s ultimate purpose is to help others change their old “stories” to transform their lives so they can flourish and be amazing! 

      About The Psych Central Podcast Host

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author. To learn more about Gabe, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

        Computer Generated Transcript for ‘James Sweigert- Reframing Traumas’ Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: You’re listening to the Psych Central Podcast, where guest experts in the field of psychology and mental health share thought-provoking information using plain, everyday language. Here’s your host, Gabe Howard.

Gabe Howard: Welcome to this week’s episode of The Psych Central Podcast, calling into the show today, we have James Sweigert. He is a television and film producer who has worked for many major brands and studios such as Apple, Netflix and Hulu. He’s also the author of the new book, If You Say So, which discusses the power of the spoken word and the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. Welcome, James.

James Sweigert: Thank you very much. It’s great to be here.

Gabe Howard: Can you tell us a little bit about your story and how and why you changed it?

James Sweigert: Sure, the title of the book, If You Say So, the subtitle is My Story and How I Changed It to Save My Life. And I came from a pretty tumultuous childhood. I was the youngest of 12 kids. There was a lot of abandonment, abuse. It was chaos. It was complete pandemonium. And so as a result and being the youngest, I got left behind. A lot of people think, oh, you’re the youngest, you’re the baby of the family. But there were just too many kids. And my mom also ran a daycare out of the house. So it was pretty crazy at the house. And having gone through a lot of things like being left at gas stations and left at school and left at grocery stores and that sort of thing, I started to develop stories around these events that happened to me, including abuse. I was molested by relatives and a neighbor from the ages of seven to 12. Because of just overlooking, I just felt like I didn’t matter. Nobody was out there protecting me. Everybody was too busy on survival mode. A lot of the older brothers and sisters found drugs and alcohol, which I eventually found at the age of 12 and used as my coping mechanism through adolescence and early adulthood. And I ended up a drug addict, alcoholic, dealing with severe depression and suicidal tendencies and ultimately a suicide attempt that I was lucky enough to survive.

James Sweigert: So we all have stories, right, because we’re all going to be victims of something in life. And it’s how we respond to that. Out of these events, I started to develop stories early on that I don’t matter. I’m broken, I’m unlovable. They’re going to figure me out. I’m a phony. All of these stories that I tended to loop into my head well into adulthood and they didn’t serve me. In fact, they just compounded my depression. And I was just pretty sure that the world would be a better place if I wasn’t in it. What happened for me is I asked for help at the age of twenty five. I was despondent. It was following a suicide attempt and help arrived in the form of a number of teachers, a brother that helped me find those teachers. And I was able to get clean and sober at twenty five. And I met some amazing teachers that helped me realize that I was telling myself stories that weren’t true and that I could change the story. And it’s through a lot of hard work. There’s a train metaphor I use about doing the work we have to do to go process and feel these unfelt feelings. You know, we have a baggage car, we have a passenger car, we have a bar car and the caboose.

James Sweigert: Some of us spend a little too much time in the bar car. That was part of my story and on the caboose, reflecting on what coulda, shoulda and woulda been. And then also spending too much time in the baggage car, just looking at all my bags and staring at it and not doing anything about it. And we’ve got to get rid of that baggage. We’ve got to feel those unfelt feelings and process that stuff so we can move on and be free from it and forgive and ask for forgiveness. And ultimately, the work I need to do is being up in that little steam engine locomotive with my overalls on, pick up the shovel and start shoveling coal into that furnace, which powers my train and moves my train forward. And that furnace is an analogy for our passion, our soul’s desire, if you will, and there’s work to be done in order to come out of our old stories. And that’s the shoveling coal part of doing the work we have to do, whether it’s going to therapy and feeling those uncomfortable feelings and processing them. Someone once told me a great line. They said, if you’re going through hell, keep going. So that’s kind of how I changed my story.

Gabe Howard: I love any analogy that involves a train, I think that it is an underutilized form of transportation and analogy. Let’s talk about the book for a moment, because in the book,

James Sweigert: Sure.

Gabe Howard: One of the things that I noticed is that you mentioned helpers and takers. Can you explain

James Sweigert: Yes.

Gabe Howard: How those two groups differ?

James Sweigert: Absolutely. And thanks for pointing that out. You’re the first person to pull that out of the book and ask me that question. I think there’s two kinds of people. Ultimately, there’s helpers and there’s takers and the takers are easy to spot in this world. I think we can see who the takers are. But the greatest people in history, the greatest people of all time have always been the helpers, the Mother Teresa of the world, the Princess Di’s of the world, the Martin Luther King’s of the world and their helpers, their selflessly giving of themselves was taking a lot of risk. And really just following their passion and their passion was to help people, to help liberate people, to help give people dignity and to show love. And to me, I want to be on the right side of history. And that’s why I’ve been really blessed with a great life. I was able to come out of the darkness into the light and ultimately succeed at being a very successful producer in Hollywood and living in Beverly Hills. My life is a dream. So now that I’ve accomplished so much, it’s really my intention to give back whenever I do a speaking engagement. I also offer an unpaid speaking engagement to an underfunded program, inner city schools, charities. And if anybody listening to your podcast has an organization where they feel they could benefit from me coming to speak, talking about the power of the spoken word and how we can change our stories and how we can actually change our stories to find happiness and true fulfillment, I’m happy to come and talk. What I do and I just love helping people and fulfills me. It gives me a great sense of purpose and duty. And when I get a letter back or a note or a comment on how my book even has changed so many people’s lives already in a short period of time, it just that’s everything for me. That’s my furnace. Right. That’s my soul’s desire is to help others to find what I was able to find.

Gabe Howard: Let’s talk about how you described your life as blessed and the reason that I’m going to zero in on this is because in your introduction, you talked about having a really, really rough childhood. But of course, that’s not what you’re focusing on. You’re focusing on where you are now and all the success that you’ve had. I imagine that’s difficult for some people. It’s a lot easier to dwell on the well, the really traumatic things that happened to us as people. How did you manage to escape that?

James Sweigert: Yeah, for me, there’s a great line, I heard somebody said, you’ve got to hit your head on the bottom of the pool in order to find out how deep it is sometimes. And for me, that was the case. Like I said, we’ll all be victims of something. And I think when we’re in enough pain and that’s when it comes time for us to be willing to change and to change the story, because we see those people out there who are negative all the time and you have to pay attention to what you’re focused on. I just can’t focus on the darkness because I’ll get more darkness. The universe will give you whatever story you tell it. And we know those people out there that are cynical and negative and they’re watching the news all the time. It doesn’t matter if they’re blue or red consuming the news all the time. It’s just the negativity and the the sensationalized news on either side of the aisle. It’s hard to be happy. And if that’s what I’m focused on, the noise, all that’s going to come out of me is noise, and it’s going to be impossible for me to be happy. And so what I had to do is I had to really pay attention to what I’m focused on. And it’s my choice. Every morning there’s a great Abraham Lincoln quote that people are as happy as they make up their minds to be. And for a long time gave I didn’t know I had a choice. And that’s really the intention of my book, is to let people know you have a choice. You are not the victim of circumstance.

James Sweigert: You have to take personal responsibility for yourself and you can actually create your own, whether today it’s just the law of attraction. You get what you’re focused on. And I have people that have come to work for me where their cell phone screen is always broken. They’re late to work. The computer’s cracked and it doesn’t work. And you hear how they speak about themselves in the world and they’re just negative. And it’s we’re never going to make it and they never make it. Conversely, when you see people who are focused on what’s good and what’s working and they’re speaking positively about themselves and others and they’re speaking in the direction of truth and love, like Don Miguel Ruiz’s four agreements, the first of the four agreements is be impeccable with your word and don’t speak against yourself or others and always speak in the direction of truth and love. And I think for any malady, whether it’s depression or alcoholism or drug addiction or suicide, the remedy for that, it’s a body, mind, spirit, solution. Dr. Karl Young wrote about it. William James wrote about it in the eighteen hundreds that it’s not just mental and it’s not just physical, but to there has to be some sort of spiritual shift. And I don’t care. I coach people who are Muslim. I coach people who are Jewish and Christians across the board. As long as you believe in something that is great and that is love and that is in favor of all peacefully cohabitate, because that’s an important ingredient. As you can hear, I’m very passionate about this subject, so.

Gabe Howard: It’s a great subject and I’m inclined to agree with most of it, because you’re right, we can all agree that words can be used for good or evil. And it’s not even really about the words. It’s the context. It’s how we make people feel with our words. It’s about how we make ourselves feel with our words. And that’s what you explain in your book about how the power of words can shape your life. And

James Sweigert: Absolutely.

Gabe Howard: You really talk a lot about the power of the spoken word. Can you expand on that for our listeners?

James Sweigert: Absolutely. If you think about it, Adolf Hitler in the 1930s used the power of the spoken word to almost exterminate the race of people, and that was using the power of the spoken word for evil and for hate. It’s incredibly powerful. I think that’s a testament to it. Conversely, let’s think about what we could do going the other way with it. Think about the intention of the power of the spoken word in the direction of truth and love and compassion and support and encouragement. Someone asked me the other day, they were like, you’re like a life coach. And I said, no, I’m more like a life cheerleader. You know that you already have the playbook inside of you. It’s my job just to help you go from your head to your heart to crack open your playbook so you can win the game. And that’s really the best way to describe what I do and how I help people, because I’m not going to tell people what to do. And that’s the beauty of the title of this book. My niece Julia is she’s smart as a whip, and she gave me some great feedback on the book in relationship to how I was going to navigate writing about my family because I didn’t really want to hurt anybody. This was not a tell all book. This is a helpful book.

James Sweigert: And Julia came to me because you know what I love about the title of your book? She said, you can’t argue with it. And I love that. I just love that I’m not out here trying to convert anyone because that can be a real turnoff. But what I do want to do is reach the people that don’t know they have a story or they don’t know they can change it. And it starts with how we speak about ourselves, because people who have come through childhood trauma or any kind of trauma, for that matter, they create a story about that. And I’m not talking about the true stories. I’m talking about the stories that we tell ourselves in the dark when we’re sick and we don’t feel well. Those are the stories that I want to get to and that I want to shed light on so that people can see those. And in my workshops and in my seminars will do that. People start to uncover their stories and shed light on that. And then we start to talk about what do you want your new story to be? And let’s focus on that. Let’s write that. What’s the news story? And one of the things I do is I get people to really look at their lives and say, look, are you grateful? Is there something in your life you’re grateful for? And I’ll have them close their eyes and think about that.

James Sweigert: And I said, focus on that thing. Whatever it is, it can be your dog or cat, be your wife or your husband. And I said, Now, what I want you to do is open your eyes, stand up and say, I am so grateful and I love my life and yell it together. And all of a sudden you see, using the power of the spoken word, you can literally change your now because I said, do you feel the energy change inside of you when you yelled that out loud and everyone said yes, overwhelmingly, did you feel the energy change in the room? Absolutely. And so that’s one little exercise that people can employ right now. Just think of something you’re grateful for and then just yell it out loud how grateful you are for it. And that literally can change the energy in your now. So bring your chin up a quarter inch so you can start to focus on what’s good, what’s working and start to move in the direction of your happiness, your dreams. And that’s true success to me. I don’t know. Money’s obviously not the measurement of success, but you know how fulfilled you are and how happy you are is really the measure of your success.

Gabe: We’ll be right back after these messages.

Sponsor Message: Gabe here and I wanted to tell you about Psych Central’s other podcast that I host, Not Crazy. It’s straight talk about the world of mental illness and it is hosted by me and my ex-wife. You should check it out at PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy or your favorite podcast player.

Sponsor Message: This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.com. Secure, convenient, and affordable online counseling. Our counselors are licensed, accredited professionals. Anything you share is confidential. Schedule secure video or phone sessions, plus chat and text with your therapist whenever you feel it’s needed. A month of online therapy often costs less than a single traditional face to face session. Go to BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral and experience seven days of free therapy to see if online counseling is right for you. BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral.

Gabe: We’re back discussing the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves with author James Sweigert.

Gabe Howard: Let’s play devil’s advocate for a moment, because I know there’s somebody listening to this and saying, so what you’re saying is if I’m in a bad way, I just tell myself I’m in a good way and poof, all of the sudden everything is better. And I imagine that that’s not what you’re saying. There’s a lot more steps than that. But to somebody listening to this and says, listen, you’re just repackaging the power of positive thinking and reselling it to me. What do you have to say for those people?

James Sweigert: I have a young man that I mentor and and this goes back to what I was saying earlier, where we’re all going to be victims of something in life. And I’m not talking about a Pollyanna attitude where you just ignore difficulties and challenges in real life events. It’s not what I’m talking about. It’s how we respond to those, because they’re going to happen, right? There’s going to be death, there’s going to be loss, there’s going to be pain. And one of the young men who I mentor, he’s about thirty seven. He and his wife had a baby, little Charlotte, just about two or three years old. They got pregnant again with their second daughter, Lily and Lily. They were doing the early tests while Fran was still pregnant. It was determined Lily did not have a right ventricle. And they did all of the research. They talked to all the doctors. They in particular happen to be Catholic. So they talked to their priest and their clergy about what should we do here? And basically some of these kids, when they’re born, they go into open heart surgery right away. And some of these children survive and have normal happy lives. Some of them don’t make it. And so what they did with their faith and they prayed on it and they said, we’re going to give the best chance at Lily having a good life. So they chose to go through with everything. And right after Lily was born at UCLA Hospital three days later, she went in for open heart surgery as this tiny little fragile infant. She was hooked up for about a month and a half, two months on life support and tubes and wires.

James Sweigert: And we went up there. I was up there every day with them. And I’ll just back up and say there’s nothing in this world more painful than losing a child. There just isn’t. And this is what they were faced with. And so by employing their faith, their courage, they walked through this event with so much dignity and so much grace. And we’re of service to that child. And there’s a couple of months later, there comes the time where they have to take the baby off life support to see if it can survive or not. And in that time, it come and they pulled the baby off life support and the baby didn’t make it. Now, I will say to you this. I do not have children. I was not able to have children. But there is nothing more painful than that. And I watch because when we were praying for Lily, we had prayer circles. And at one point I out loud, I was praying for Lily to survive and the medical issues. And Devon, her father, looked over to me, put his hand on my shoulder and he said, you know what? We’re not going to pray for Lily to live. We’re going to pray for God’s will. For Lily do is like a ton of bricks hit me in the chest because I realized that he knew that child belonged to the universe. The child didn’t belong to him and his wife. It showed me such extraordinary faith and courage and dignity.

James Sweigert: And the way they walked through that was absolutely incredible. Of course, it was painful. Of course, there was anguish and mourning grief. And we all went through that. And I was by his side every step of the way. And we went through that horrible situation, that tragic event in their family. And they moved on. They kept her memory alive and they acknowledged her in the home. They didn’t do it. A lot of people do. We’re not going to talk about it again. I have some friends who’ve lost siblings, and they’re just the families said we’re not talking about it ever again. But they kept it alive for Charlotte. They talked about her sister, that she’s with God now. And what was amazing to me was that because of their faith, in my opinion, they didn’t give up. And two years later, a friend got pregnant again. They had a beautiful new baby daughter, Zoe, and now they have two wonderfully beautiful children. And this memory of how they were able to get through something very difficult, but not let it dictate their future and ruin their lives, because I’ve seen that happen to people where they make it about themselves and they want to play the victim and they remain the victim for decades. So if you’re out there struggling, I hear, how do I use the spoken word? What if I don’t believe it? This is where the spiritual component comes in that I believe in a great spirit and the power of the universe. I believe in a spiritual entity that wants us all to be happy. I really do.

James Sweigert: I think plants and trees and the great sequoias, they grow up defying gravity. And I believe that the universe wants that for us as well. And so you have to believe you can start today by saying, you know what, my best days are ahead of me. You might be in a hole right now. You might be in a dark place. But there is hope, because even for when I was having suicidal thoughts, my mentor said to me, he said, James, what if when you killed yourself, the pain didn’t go away? And he said, worse yet, what if when you killed yourself, the pain got worse? Because we’ve read about people who’ve died and started to go to the other side and seeing light and all these kinds of stuff, and there’s the guy that jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge and survived it. The first thing that he thought when he left off the bridge was, oh, my God, what am I doing with regret? So that’s why I tell people like I just start saying my best days are ahead of me. And people say, how are you doing? Not so great, but I’m getting better. And you’re leaving room for improvement, leaving room for opportunity. So I don’t believe in denial and not acknowledging where you’re at, what’s going on. You have to address that stuff, but you have to believe it can get better. And then there’s some people that just want to sit in the mud. And I’m like, the universe will give you whatever story you tell it, but you do have a choice.

Gabe Howard: One of the things that you say, of course, is that the universe will give you whatever you tell, it will give you in, and I certainly believe that in many ways. But but in other cases, like really extreme examples, war or poverty or of course, in the lives of children, that rings less true. Is there an outer limits to if you say so, where does it end or where does it begin?

James Sweigert: Interesting questions. Let’s talk about the and you’re in the business of the mind, so let’s talk about the power of the mind. One of the examples I will point to is the placebo effect. Right. What’s the explanation that a sugar pill give a human being the same benefit, the same medical benefits that the actual medicine gives people? And I’m talking about significant numbers that there’s people who actually benefit from just the thought that they think they’re taking something that will help them in their condition. That’s the power of the mind and that’s the power of belief. You’ll get whatever you believe. And so if you’re believing negative thoughts, you will get that your point in that shift towards the dormancy. You’re going to get rough sailing. If I point that ship towards the beautiful sunset, it’s going to be smooth sailing. It’s just the law of nature. That’s just the way that things work. There is no limit. There’s a limit. If you say so, you’re talking about war. And a lot of people throw this out. When I start talking about the law of attraction, when I say that life is always good, it’s just our perspective of it that changes people fight me on. What about 911? What about school shootings? And as I mentioned earlier, that we don’t have control over everyone else, but we do have control of ourselves over what we’re focused on, what we’re saying about ourselves and what we’re saying to others. That’s what I focus on is what I really have power over of my voice and my word. And so we’re all going to be victims of something. I love parents who always buy their kids a goldfish when they’re children.

James Sweigert: It’s a great lesson of this experience in this human life that this imperfect world where we’re animals. So when a kid has a goldfish and then he comes home one day from school and the goldfish is floating on top of the water, what do you do? You grieve the loss of the goldfish. You have a little ceremony in the backyard. You bury it in the flower bed, you put a little headstone and you grieve the loss of your goldfish. And that’s to prepare us for bad things happen in life. But we’re not in control of all of that. But what I do know is this is when I’ve changed my story and I started to speak differently about myself and others. And when I started to pay attention to what I was focused on and I started focusing on what’s good and what’s working in my life, I attract a lot more of that. And I’m a lot more peaceful in my life. I have a lot more healthy, loving, nurturing relationships of people that make me a better me. And I’m happier and I’m more content and I’m comfortable in my own skin and that’s my evidence. And literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions of other people in the world that do the same thing. Because I was stuck in the darkness, I did not know I had a choice. And that’s really bringing it back full circle to this. That’s really what the book is about, is to let people who are struggling know that, hey, there are some things you can do right now to start to turn this thing around.

Gabe Howard: One of the things that you talk about openly is that you’re a survivor of sexual assault. I just like to give you the opportunity to talk about that because it goes into what you were saying, that people always push back. What about 9/11? What about war? What about famine? You have your own personal hell that you’ve dealt with. Can you expound on that for a moment?

James Sweigert: One of the greatest pieces of feedback I got on the book was got it’s really raw. You’re incredibly vulnerable in that. And yes, I had to tell my story because I don’t want to keep looping the story about all the negative, horrible things that happened to me and things that I had done. I wanted to put a period at the end of that story and move on. And again, what I’m really focused on, you know, how I am so lucky and blessed and grateful of this great life that I have. But I write about a lot of really tragic events. And what I’m finding is I’m having a lot of people direct message me on social media saying, you know what, that happened to me to thank you for sharing that. I’ve never been able to talk about that when a lot of the work that I do, especially with men, because I think for men, the stigma around M.S., the shame that comes with that and the stigma around that was one of the things I said I would never, ever tell anyone. And someone who one of my great teachers and great inspiration to me is the famous champion boxer, Sugar Ray Leonard. And he wrote a book called The Big Fight. And it was about his battle with alcohol and drugs being the biggest fight he ever had in his life. And he wrote in his book about how he was molested twice when he was a young teenage amateur coming up in the boxing ranks.

James Sweigert: And and I was so moved by his vulnerability and his honesty that it inspired me. I said, you know what? I need to tell my story. I need to share my truth as well so that I can help hopefully crack open other men and women who kept that a secret because we’re as sick as our secrets and those secrets and those resentments and that rage and that anger that we have towards our offenders, that breeds illness, breeds tumors, it breeds I had asthma because of it. I had colitis because of it, because I was suffering from this rage inside of being wronged and being violated. And not until I was able to learn about forgiveness. And ultimately, when someone explained to me that forgiveness isn’t about letting anybody else off the hook, it’s about letting ourselves off. And that was a huge revelation for me. So, yeah, the world’s not perfect. And that’s exactly what my book is designed to help people and how they respond to tragic events and horrible things that have happened to them. Because if I continue to fight things but there’s a saying, what we resist persists, stop fighting. I put my weapons down and now I’m really focused on what’s good, what’s working in my life, focused on gratitude, focused on love and focus on helping others. And as a result, I couldn’t be happier. I love what I do and I love everybody I do it with. And I’m really lucky.

Gabe Howard: James, I love everything that you’ve said, I love your outlook on life, and of course, I’m I’m really glad that you’re out there helping people. Where can people find your book?

James Sweigert: My website is JamesSweigert.com, and that’s S W E I G E R T, JamesSweigert.com. You can also get the book through there. You can also book me for speaking engagements. Or if you’re looking at lifestyle coaching, I’m happy to help anyone I can. And yes, the book is available on Amazon, hardcover, paperback, Audible as well as Kindle.

Gabe Howard: James, thank you so much for being honest. Thank you for being here and we appreciate your time.

James Sweigert: You’ve got it, Gabe. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I appreciate it and hope you have a great day. Unless, of course, you have other plans.

Gabe Howard: Thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in this week to The Psych Central Podcast. My name is Gabe Howard and I am the author of Mental Illness Is an Asshole, which is available on Amazon, or you can get a signed copy with all kinds of cool swag, including stickers from The Psych Central Podcast for less money just by heading over to gabehoward.com. Let me tell you about our super-secret Facebook page you should absolutely check out, just go to PsychCentral.com/FBShow. And remember, you can get one week of free, convenient, affordable, private online counseling any time anywhere simply by visiting BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral. We will see everybody next week.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to The Psych Central Podcast. Want your audience to be wowed at your next event? Feature an appearance and LIVE RECORDING of the Psych Central Podcast right from your stage! For more details, or to book an event, please email us at show@psychcentral.com. Previous episodes can be found at PsychCentral.com/Show or on your favorite podcast player. Psych Central is the internet’s oldest and largest independent mental health website run by mental health professionals. Overseen by Dr. John Grohol, Psych Central offers trusted resources and quizzes to help answer your questions about mental health, personality, psychotherapy, and more. Please visit us today at PsychCentral.com.  To learn more about our host, Gabe Howard, please visit his website at gabehoward.com. Thank you for listening and please share with your friends, family, and followers.

   The post Podcast: Reframing Past Traumas first appeared on World of Psychology.

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Podcast: Depression Management Hints and Tips

Can a never-depressed person truly understand what your depression is like? Or give you advice? Probably not. It’s like getting parenting advice from a non-parent. In today’s show, our two depressed co-hosts, Gabe and Lisa, understand the pain of depression and are here to share their experiences and offer some helpful tips.

If you’re struggling with depression, tune in for a great discussion — from two people who have been there and understand what you’re going through. By the end, you’ll know you’re not alone.

(Transcript Available Below)

Please Subscribe to Our Show: And We Love Written Reviews! 

About The Not Crazy podcast Hosts

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from Gabe Howard. To learn more, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

        Lisa is the producer of the Psych Central podcast, Not Crazy. She is the recipient of The National Alliance on Mental Illness’s “Above and Beyond” award, has worked extensively with the Ohio Peer Supporter Certification program, and is a workplace suicide prevention trainer. Lisa has battled depression her entire life and has worked alongside Gabe in mental health advocacy for over a decade. She lives in Columbus, Ohio, with her husband; enjoys international travel; and orders 12 pairs of shoes online, picks the best one, and sends the other 11 back.

    Computer Generated Transcript for “Depression Tips” Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Lisa: You’re listening to Not Crazy, a Psych Central podcast hosted by my ex-husband, who has bipolar disorder. Together, we created the mental health podcast for people who hate mental health podcasts.

Gabe: Hey, everyone, and welcome to this week’s episode of the Not Crazy podcast. My name is Gabe Howard and I am your host. But with me, as always, is the great Lisa Kiner.

Lisa: Oh, thank you, Gabe. And today’s quote comes to us from Atticus, Depression is being colorblind and constantly told how colorful the world is.

Gabe: This speaks to me in ways that I just cannot explain,

Lisa: I know it’s awesome, right?

Gabe: Right?

Lisa: I like it a lot.

Gabe: I think that people think that they understand depression in the same way that people think they understand colorblindness. Right? Depression is the absence of happiness. Colorblindness is the absence of color. But.

Lisa: Colorblindness actually doesn’t work that way.

Gabe: Well, but you see what I mean?

Lisa: Right, right, right, the analogy is even better than we thought. Oh, boom. Mind blown.

Gabe: Exactly, the average person is like, oh, you see the world in black and white, but that’s not what’s actually happening. Just like depression is not this absence of happiness. It’s a painful feeling. It’s a weighted feeling. It’s being pulled into a dark hole. It’s loneliness, it’s emptiness. It’s shallow, it’s awful. It’s, it feels differently from person to person to person, just like colorblindness appears differently person to person to person and but everybody is wandering around like, well, I know what color blindness is. It’s like the whole world was a black and white TV. There. I got it. Solved the problem.

Lisa: You are stunningly good at analogies.

Gabe: I know, it’s like it’s my job. This leaves the person who is colorblind to think, wow, you don’t get me at all. But what’s worse is you are positive that you do and you won’t listen to me to explain that you don’t get it. I think that’s how people with depression feel. Not only do they not understand you, they’re 100% positive, that they do understand you and unwilling to listen to anything that we have to say to convince them otherwise, which, of course, just deepens that hole. It deepens that loneliness and frustration and, well, frankly, desperation.

Lisa: Yeah, it makes it even sadder. 

Gabe: Today we’re going to talk about coping with depression and maybe some helpful hints, because frankly, I just I think that we can only get tips for dealing with depression from other people who have dealt with and manage depression. So congratulations, everybody, your depressed co-hosts of Not Crazy are here to save the day. Right, Lisa?

Lisa: Absolutely.

Gabe: Wow, just the most depressing.

Lisa: I know

Gabe: Absolutely ever,

Lisa: Sorry. Well, because I have some

Gabe: I just, your energy level is garbage.

Lisa: Ok, stop, I want to say something. I want to respond to a point that you made earlier and I’ll figure out how to work it in. You know, I had a friend once who said.

Gabe: You know, you don’t have to work it in, you can just you’re always thinking about how do I make a sound better? I think the audience knows that we’re dipshits by now. I don’t I don’t think we’re fooling anybody with our creative edits. They

Lisa: You’re not helping

Gabe: They know we suck. Make your point.

Lisa: You’re not helping me get in the correct zone for point making.

Gabe: You don’t need to be in a zone. The point is the point is the point. Your feelings

Lisa: Ok, so

Gabe: Are irrelevant to facts.

Lisa: One time I said to someone, I feel like people who do not have mental illness, cannot understand mental illness, and I was specifically talking about doctors, I feel like my doctor who does not have mental illness does not get it. And she said, well, but isn’t that the truth with everyone? I mean, what if you had diabetes? Would a person who didn’t have diabetes understand it? And. Well, on the one hand, I don’t have diabetes, but yeah, I feel like they would. I feel like it’s not the same. And I don’t know why. I feel like mental illness is different than other things. I feel like I do have an understanding of all these other diseases, diabetes, a broken leg that I do not have. But I feel like I do understand it. But is that me doing the same thing that other people do with mental illness? I don’t know.

Gabe: There’s an element of this, right, we’re all arrogant about things

Lisa: Right,

Gabe: That impact other people.

Lisa: That’s the word I’m looking for, arrogance, is this just my own arrogance? I don’t know.

Gabe: Somewhat, right? I think it’s all in how much we scratch below the surface, right? Think of like parenting, you know, how everybody who has no children is the perfect

Lisa: Right, my kids would be perfect.

Gabe: I’m going to pick on my sister because my sister, before she had kids, she just walked around judging everybody’s parents. My kid’ll never throw a temper tantrum in a parking lot. My kid’ll never do this. My kid will never eat that. My kid will never watch this. My kid won’t have that problem. My kid will never back talk me. Yeah. I love my niece. And what I love most about her is that she just proves my sister wrong every single day.

Lisa: That does sound enjoyable.

Gabe: Yeah, it’s awesome as her big brother, but I don’t have kids, so it’s fun to watch, but it’s not that my sister’s a bad person. She thought that she understood. She observed other parents. She thought about her own upbringing and she formulated these opinions. But when parents were telling her, look, lady, that’s not how it works. My sister was like, pretty sure that’s how it works. And yeah, she’s just done nothing but eat crow since little Eva was born. The difference is, is to my sister’s credit and to many people’s credit, they’re like, yeah, I was wrong. I was completely unprepared for this. I was completely wrong. I am just so wrong. And I think we get that in like other illnesses, like you said, a broken leg. I think that many of us have broken a leg or at least respect the thoughts, views and opinions of somebody who we know who has broken a leg. But when it comes to depression, when it comes to any mental illness, really, but the show’s about depression. People are like, look, you’re describing it incorrectly. And they’re like, no depression of mine will ever behave that way.

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: And they just walk away with all of the arrogance of a 20-year-old with no kids judging people who have kids because they’re positive that their child raising skills are superior even though they have no children. I think this allows us not to move forward in educating the public because they think they already know it.

Lisa: And this leads to your point of the best place to get advice on how to deal with depression is from people who have depression.

Gabe: Yes, and I don’t want everybody to, like, cancel all of their appointments with their therapists and doctors, right. As somebody who lives with depression, as somebody who manages depression, bipolar disorder, anxiety, the first advice that I’m going to give you is work with your therapist and your doctor.

Lisa: For your long, long term management, yeah, you need a therapist, you need a doctor, take your meds, do your therapy, we just want to talk a little bit, maybe more around the edges for when you’re having a bad day or things just aren’t quite where you want them to be. This is not about when you’re really bad, when you’re really sick, you’re really deep in the hole.

Gabe: We also want to give you a few points, maybe, you know, your mileage may vary about how to talk to your therapist, talk to your doctor, talk to your prescriber, because so often, if they are dismissive, we sort of get handcuffed because we have this idea that perhaps we can’t argue with them.

Lisa: Well, yeah, because it’s your fault, it’s on you,

Gabe: Well, yeah, it’s on you.

Lisa: It’s your mistake, not theirs.

Gabe: Yeah, it’s nobody’s mistake, it’s an illness process, I hate this whole oh, my God, the patient is sick. Is it the patient’s fault or the doctor’s fault? It’s depression’s fault. It’s the illness’s fault. Why? Why are we blaming patient or doctor? You know, there’s a third party in the room, dumb asses. It’s the illness’s fault.

Lisa: Well, people with mental illness are in a bad position because by definition, your brain is not working correctly or not working optimally. So when your doctor says something and it’s putting it on you, you’re like, well, that makes sense. I’m the problem here, clearly. You’re kind of stuck.

Gabe: You’re kind of stuck, but I want people to understand that there are things that they can do to advocate for themselves, and the first thing is, is to tell your doctor, I don’t accept that. I don’t accept that this is my fault and I don’t accept that I am stuck. I want real goals. I want you to tell me what I need to do so that I can mark them down. And if I do those things and I’m not better, then we know it’s not me. In the deepest, darkest depression, and I know that’s hard, keep a lot of notes, find an ally, find a Lisa, find a friend, find somebody to help keep track of this. Don’t talk about depression in this abstract way. I’m depressed. What did you do? I went to a doctor. What’s the goal? To be not depressed. We need hard goals. You know, I’m depressed. What’s the goal? To get dressed in the morning? OK, I want to work with my therapist on how to get dressed in the morning. That’s a real manageable goal. And I’m going to give you a hint.

Lisa: Ok, you have a hint?

Gabe: I feel that we’ve beat to death this idea that you should work with your doctor, right, Lisa? Like nobody is saying that the Not Crazy podcast is a replacement for medical advice. Agreed?

Lisa: Agree,

Gabe: Ok, good.

Lisa: Strongly agree.

Gabe: All right. Let’s start at the beginning of the day. One of the problems that I often have is I just I can’t get out of bed in the morning. Now, I don’t like mean literally can’t. I’m not, like, laying in bed paralyzed or. I just wake up and I look around and I think I don’t want to do this. I don’t. And you remember these depressive episodes, Lisa. It was.

Lisa: It was difficult, it was very difficult, but I bet that you have some tips for dealing with that.

Gabe: The first thing I want to say is I think this is where severe depression sort of starts, right? This I don’t want to get out of bed or I don’t want to leave my couch or I don’t want to leave my house. Just this.

Lisa: It’s an overwhelming apathy.

Gabe: Yes, yes, and it’s this like you want to cocoon.

Lisa: Yeah, in a big gray blanket.

Gabe: Yeah, I don’t know what color my blanket was, but

Lisa: Well, no, because it’s gray, because it’s depression.

Gabe: Oh, I get it.

Lisa: Yeah, a big gray, wet blanket.

Gabe: Oh, I don’t know what made it wet, but,

Lisa: Tears,

Gabe: Yeah,

Lisa: Though, not really.

Gabe: I don’t think you’re far off, but I have some general tips for this. You know, one of the first things is, as you know, I thought to myself, OK, well, I need to get out of bed. Right. So,

Lisa: Step one.

Gabe: Yeah, step one, get out of bed. But that’s like really easy to say, right? It’s like, well, I’m depressed. What do I do? You just cheer up. Well, that’s not very helpful. How do you get out of bed? And I think there are some hints and tips to help with even that most basic idea of getting out of bed, put an alarm clock across the room. This has helped me because I have to physically get on my feet to turn off the alarm clock. And the alarm clock is so annoying that it overrides this general desire to stay in bed.

Lisa: That is the only way I can get up is if I put the alarm clock on the other side of the room because otherwise, I just turn over and hit it off. But it really annoys my husband

Gabe: Well, and.

Lisa: Because it goes off so much longer than it would otherwise.

Gabe: If you don’t live alone, you can ask a roommate to turn on a light for you. 

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: Or open your window or, you know, do something like that. That’s what you would do, Lisa. You would come in and open the windows, turn on the light, open the door. But once you’re actually physically on your feet, like, that’s the least of your problems, right? You’re standing up. I mean, chances are having to go to the bathroom will get you out of bed. That part kind of works itself out eventually. So the big indicator for me was personal hygiene. Was showering, you know, am I taking a shower? Am I shaving? Am I brushing my teeth? And.

Lisa: For unknown reasons, that was something that you fixated on, it just seemed really overwhelming to you. Strangely, you would do other things, but that particular thing just you couldn’t seem to get past.

Gabe: It was so hard. So one of the goals that I made was to get dressed to get like real dressed like.

Lisa: Yeah, not pajamas and robe dressed.

Gabe: Right, like out in the world and here, here’s the helpful hint, guys,

Lisa: Oh, yeah.

Gabe: So many people say, well, my goal today is to get dressed OK, but that’s actually like a bunch of little things, right? Get dressed is the conclusion. There’s actually quite a few steps, right? There’s getting out of bed. There’s shaving, there’s taking a shower, there’s brushing your teeth, there’s washing your hair. There’s putting on clean underwear, clean socks and picking out clothes is even on there. And one of the ways that I helped myself a real great deal was I listed all of those things one at a time in order. Step one, get out of bed, step two, shave, step three, get in shower, step four, shampoo. And you’re thinking, wow, that’s like really cumbersome. But the one it is. But who cares? We’re moving forward. But it let me cross a lot of little things off the list. Now, you remember Lisa.

Lisa: He would literally cross them off the list.

Gabe: And I wrote them on the mirror in my bathroom because most bathroom mirrors, if you buy a dry erase marker, you can just write it right on there. Actually, I was wrong, pick out clothes was the first thing I put on the list. And I could usually cross that one off before I went to bed. 

Lisa: Getting a jump start on the day.

Gabe: Yeah, yeah, I’m going to bed with a win. We tend to do this like people say, I want to graduate college, OK, that’s a good goal. But could you imagine if you showed up to college on your first day and you asked the admissions people are like, hey, what do I need to do? And they said, you need to graduate college. OK, but how? By going to college. Graduating college is the conclusion. Getting dressed, getting ready, facing the day. That’s the conclusion. Write it out. Give yourself credit along the way.

Lisa: You did have like a five-point list that you wrote on the mirror almost every day. 

Gabe: Yeah.

Lisa: And it was like shower, shave, brush teeth. And you went straight down the list with the marker and crossed it off as you went. It seemed to make you very happy.

Gabe: I don’t know, there was something cathartic almost about accomplishing things, and you’re thinking to yourself, if you’re like me anyway, well, those are so stupid, those are stupid accomplishments. And if you’ve never been in the midst of really serious depression, I can understand that knee jerk reaction that that writing, you know, shave and then crossing it off is stupid.

Lisa: It worked, though.

Gabe: I’m telling you, the day before, I did nothing. Nothing. So, when all I did in a day was brush my teeth, comb my hair, shave, put on clean underwear, get dressed, that was an amazing accomplishment. And then I started building on the list, go get the mail, drive and get a Diet Coke or a cup of coffee. It just built until one day I realized that I was just doing this stuff automatically in the quote unquote normal amount of time and.

Lisa: You didn’t need the list anymore.

Gabe: I didn’t need the list anymore, and I would usually just realize, oh, huh, I didn’t write the list, life would just sort of move on. And we think to ourselves, well, why should I give myself credit for brushing my teeth? Because it’s hard. It’s hard for people like us. It’s an accomplishment for people like us. Don’t shame your success. Celebrate it. Well, other people don’t need to do this. First off, you don’t know what’s written on other people’s mirrors. All right? You just don’t. That’s number one thing. And number two, who cares? They’re not living your life. You’re living your life. This puts you in the best position.

Lisa: You still do it occasionally,

Gabe: Occasionally I do,

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: It’s still a coping skill that I use, you know, another coping skill that I use, Lisa, that that you taught me

Lisa: Oh,

Gabe: That. Yeah.

Lisa: I’m sure this is a good one.

Gabe: This is a super important, are you ready?

Lisa: Ok, I’m ready.

Gabe: Sleep hygiene.

Lisa: We all know how much Gabe loves to talk about sleep hygiene.

Gabe: Anybody that’s been a long-time listener of Gabe Howard knows how much I love sleep hygiene; I cannot overstate that I believe that sleep drives my mental health, my bipolar, anxiety, mania, depression more than anything else. It’s also an incredible predictor. But this all starts with respecting sleep and knowing how to manage it. And normally I give this whole big speech about everything that I know about sleep hygiene, but I learned it from Lisa. So, real treat everybody. Lisa is going to teach us sleep hygiene.

Lisa: Ok, sleep hygiene means having a consistent routine and a consistent waking up and going to bed time, that can be so difficult when you’re depressed. Like Gabe says, nobody respects sleep. You should use your bed only for sleep and sex. That’s it. Don’t have your TV in the bedroom. Don’t be playing with your phone before you go to sleep. None of that. Sleep and sex, that’s it.

Gabe: It’s so simple, it’s almost annoying, right? First off, sleep is just as important as food. Just hear me on that one. It is just as important as food. If you eat garbage all day, you will feel like shit. If you don’t get enough sleep, you will feel like shit. Those things go together.

Lisa: Well, but when people talk about health, they always talk about diet and exercise, but no one ever throws in sleep. Diet, exercise and sleep, they should have equal footing.

Gabe: They really, really, really should, but for some reason they don’t, so I am going to fix that. Like that’s my mission. A lot of people hear where are you supposed to go to bed and get up at the same time? And they’re like, well, but with depression, I can’t control when I fall asleep. And what if I stay up all night ruminating or, you know, anxiety follows my depression around pretty easily where I just get caught in this feedback loop and I stay up later and later and later. Yeah, it’s really rough when that same time in the morning comes around and I’ve only gotten two hours sleep and people say to me, well but sleep is so important, Gabe, then you should just sleep all day, otherwise you’re going to have a really bad day. You’re going to be irritable, you’re going to be grumpy, you’re not going to get that sleep. Yeah, all of those things are true except for the part where you don’t get up anyway and you’re thinking to yourself, why would I do that to myself for a day? Because otherwise you’re going to do that to yourself for two days a week, four days. You’re going to get your routine all messed up. You’re going to get your sleep cycle off. One bad day is awful. So, imagine seven bad days. I once got my sleep schedule, so out of whack, I don’t think I knew up from down for a month and that all could have been avoided by having one bad day. Now, Lisa, the only use your bedroom for sleep and sex thing really throws a lot of people because a lot of people use their bedrooms as a sanctuary away

Lisa: Right,

Gabe: From children,

Lisa: Roommates.

Gabe: Roommates. It would be nice if everybody listening had multiple rooms in their house and they could just dedicate a room. But there are still things that you can do in your bedroom to make sure that your bed is only used for sleep and sex. One thing is to have a chair in your room if you can. So if you are going to have a TV in there, don’t watch TV in bed, sit in the chair next to your bed and watch the TV. That way, when you’re in the bed, it still creates this demarcation.

Lisa: Well, it even if you can’t do that for some reason, you have a really small apartment, have a consistent bedtime routine, that these are the things I do before I go to sleep. You brush your teeth, put on your jammies, whatever, sit in that chair and read for 20 minutes. You have a consistent routine that you do every night, no matter what. I personally sometimes do not give enough credit to sleep. When I get really depressed, you just start ruminating on those thoughts. And for me, I think staying up late is actually a form of procrastination. You know how you always tell little kids the sooner you go to bed, the sooner Santa will be here? Well, yeah, the sooner you go to bed, the sooner tomorrow will be here. And all the things that you have to do tomorrow will be here. So if you stay up, you can put that off. Yeah, it always is self-defeating.

Gabe: Well, it’s self-sabotage, especially for you, Lisa.

Lisa: Yeah, I get so much more emotional when I haven’t slept, I’m just on the knife’s edge and I can’t restore my equilibrium if I’m tired.

Gabe: When we talk about managing depression, it would just be ludicrous to not just point out how important sleep is to managing mental health.

Lisa: And no one ever talks about it. Your doctor will ask you about your diet or your exercise, they never ask you about your sleep. It’s weird.

Gabe: But thankfully, Gabe and Lisa are on the case, honestly, you would be crazy not to get enough sleep.

Lisa: And again, it’s one of those things that’s so simplistic. Really? I have this life-threatening illness and you want me to make sure to go to bed on time? Yeah,

Gabe: Yes,

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah,

Gabe: Yeah,

Lisa: I do. Yeah,

Gabe: Yeah, yeah, I do.

Lisa: It’s not bullshit. Seriously, I speak from experience.

Gabe: We also need to think outside of the box. I am very fortunate I can use my bedroom just for sleep and sex. I’ve got the whole rest of the house. But when I travel, for example, if the hotel room has a chair, I sit in the chair to watch TV rather than sit on the bed. Now, if I have to sit on the bed, I don’t get under the covers and I stay in my clothes. So

Lisa: That’s a good one.

Gabe: The idea is to be creative around this so that you are setting up a routine so that when you get into bed, your body knows it’s time to sleep. Another thing that I highly recommend is a white noise machine. Turn on the white noise machine only when you’re ready to go to bed, turn everything else off. A fan is very helpful. Turn on the white noise machine and the fan when you go to bed, that air across your body, being under the covers, being in pajamas or all of these things just indicate this is what you do when you sleep. And then it’s repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat. We can say until we’re blue in the face that Lisa doesn’t respect sleep, but Lisa is not uncommon. 

Lisa, along with sleep hygiene, what are some other things that you think that people can do to manage their depression in a helpful and meaningful way?

Lisa: Well, again, the idea of having a schedule is so important, so you’re getting up at the same time every day, and one of the things that might help you keep to a schedule maybe is a pet.

Gabe: Really, you’re advising people to get a living creature. Should we start with a plant?

Lisa: Well, maybe you should start with a plant, maybe a hamster, hamsters are really nice.

Gabe: Well, you know, that’s very interesting, actually, I’m really glad that you pointed that out. You know, in my mind, dog. Everybody is going to run out and buy a 100-pound German shepherd. But you are right, there’s pocket pets. I said plant and you brought up hamster. Do you think that the I’m really trying hard not to say, hey, do you think depressed people can take care of hamsters?

Lisa: Yes, actually, I do, because it gives you something else to focus on, something else to think about, something that isn’t just about you. It’s someone else, something else that is counting on you. And depending on the pet, especially right now, COVID time, if you’re not getting a lot of human interaction, you have your pet. You know, it’s something that provides you with affection and you could get that dog and cuddle with it and pet it and it’s just it’s very soothing.

Gabe: Lisa, you had a hamster.

Lisa: I did have a hamster as a child. I loved my hamster a lot.

Gabe: I was hoping that you would just open yourself up and just confess to the people your love of your hamster. What was your hamster’s name?

Lisa: Twitchell.

Gabe: Twitchell. Tell everybody about little depressed Lisa taking care of little Twitchell.

Lisa: I was a troubled kid, I had a lot of trouble with depression, I didn’t have a lot of friends, I was very lonely and I got a hamster. As I think back about it now, it’s actually really depressing. I’m actually feeling a little bit emotional. I’m 40 and I’m getting emotional thinking about the rodent I had that died when I was 10, but I was ridiculously attached to this hamster. Her name was Twitchell because her nose twitched. I thought that was incredibly clever. It just gave me something else to love, you know, because like I said, I was lonely and there was nobody else around.

Gabe: And it wasn’t just about loving, it was also about the routine of caring for Twitchell.

Lisa: Yeah, because you had to feed her, you had to take care of her cage, and of course, you want to do that at the same time every day and that you felt this responsibility. I have to be at least up and alert enough to do these things or I’m letting her down, you know, so you have this responsibility to someone else and maybe you don’t have the incentive to get up and get going for yourself, but you do for your pet.

Gabe: Now, Lisa, you moved on from Twitchell when you were a little older, you got a turtle and now I was fascinated by this because when I met Lisa, she had a turtle and she was like, well, I’ve had that turtle since I was 10. I was like, that’s not true, that turtles don’t live that long. And she was like, turtles live like 50, 60 years. And I was like, well, I’ve only seen the little turtles. And Lisa said.

Lisa: You know, I hate that. Oh, when I was a kid, I had the little turtles. Babies? No, no, no, not the babies, the little ones. Babies, those are babies. Everyone’s like, no, no, no. That’s a different breed of turtle that stays small. Yeah, it’s a baby. And then they’ll say things like, no, no, no. I had that turtle for like a year and it never got any bigger. Yeah, because you weren’t taking good care of it. It was a baby.

Gabe: It’s extraordinarily important that any pet that you get, you make sure that you can care for the pet.

Lisa: Yes.

Gabe: And that you have a backup plan in the event that you cannot. Now don’t run out and grab a pet thinking the pet is going to solve all of your problems, make sure that you are ready for the pet and that you have a backup plan. Backup plans are very important when caring for living creatures. I cannot stress enough that you might want to start with a plant. This is not advice for the severely depressed. This is an advanced skill. We wanted to mention pets because the research is just clearly there, but we don’t want everybody running out getting a pet that they, you know, slowly torture and kill. I think that’s what we’re trying to say, Lisa.

Lisa: Well, keep in mind, even among pocket pets, they could be a lot more difficult to take care of, especially reptiles and birds, people do not realize the amount of work and effort that’s involved in properly caring for them. And obviously, you don’t want to get a pet so that you can take poor care of it. So this is a bit of advanced skill. Make sure you do your research. I owned reptiles for decades and they just take a lot more work than most people think.

Gabe: As somebody who suffers from depression, I got to tell you, my dog, I love my dog. My dog absolutely helps with my depression. It helps with my routine. I’ve got to care for this dog. I feel a sense of pride in watching him, caring for him, molding him, taking him to the vet.

Lisa: And responsibility.

Gabe: Yeah, I cannot be more clear that Peppy is a point of pride and success for me, but that said, I want to make sure that I do right by him even when I’m sick. It’s of vital importance to understand that. So we have sort of a happy medium, which is volunteer at the Humane Society, find a shelter.

Lisa: Then you could pet things.

Gabe: Then you can play with the pets, care for the pets, be around the pets, but also then you can go home. Lisa, you have, I don’t remember, did you ever volunteer for any sort of animal shelter?

Lisa: Yeah, because I didn’t want to have a dog in my house and I couldn’t afford it, but I wanted to be able to pet them.

Gabe: I remember that I fostered a kitten for a few weeks. Do you remember because when I fostered

Lisa: I do remember.

Gabe: That kitten, you were like Gabe got a kitten. I was like, I’m just a foster. Six weeks, and then the kitten was adopted. But that was a really good experience because, one, it was temporary. And two, I had the agency checking in on me. So fostering was actually a great step for me. And I got to play with the kitten.

Lisa: And also, I’m sure if your neighbor or someone you know has a dog, they’ll let you walk it. Dogs can walk for days. If you say, hey, can I take your dog for a walk? They will totally let you do it because, yeah, no one can walk a dog as much as the dog wishes to be walked.

Gabe: You know, I just thought of a service that Kendall and I use to take care of Peppy sometimes, I’m not going to mention the name, but it’s just an app. It’s sort of like Uber for people who walk dogs, take care of pets, you know, check in on them. You can play with other people’s dogs, walk other people’s dogs and make a little money. Just Google Uber of dog walkers. They didn’t pay us. And I’m not certainly referring them. I just I wonder, everybody so far that’s taken care of Peppy from that service has had a day job. I wonder how many of those folks are like, hey, I get to play with puppies and make a little extra money. Sort of reminds me of, like, people like I don’t join a gym. I’m a mover on the weekends.

Lisa: That is an excellent idea that I might wow, think of all the money you’d save. But pets give you something else to focus on and they’re a source of uncomplicated affection.

Gabe: Back in a minute after these messages.

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Lisa: We’re back, talking about depression management.

Gabe: You know, Lisa, we’ve been kind of doing a combo deal here where we tell you how you can play with pets and volunteer, but volunteerism in and of itself is a way to help avoid, alleviate and lift yourself up out of depression.

Lisa: Studies are very clear that volunteerism works, it gives you that something to regularize your schedule, it gives you a place to go, it gives you responsibility, and it gives you that social interaction.

Gabe: It also gives you success, right? I just I used to be a volunteer manager and I called it the warm and fuzzy feeling. You know, everybody said volunteers work for free. No, they don’t. Volunteers do not work for free. They work for that warm and fuzzy feeling. You must connect their efforts with accomplishment, with success. That’s what they want. And I think this is really relevant and important for people who suffer from depression, because a lot of times we feel like we just feel like we’re not doing any good in the world

Lisa: Right.

Lisa: And volunteering gives you those positive accolades.

Gabe: You know, Lisa, we’re very aware of all of the common volunteer activities, you know, volunteering in a soup kitchen or volunteering with animals. But, you know, the mental health community has so many open volunteer opportunities that I don’t think people look into. Now, you want to make sure that your own recovery is very stable and sturdy before you move into them. But I hate it when people who live with mental illness don’t volunteer for our causes because, well frankly, we do have a hard time securing volunteers.

Lisa: Yes, it is a difficult thing, stigma is everywhere. And so, in your community, do you have a drop in center? Do you have a clubhouse program? Is there someplace that you could go to help out?

Gabe: Also, don’t discount volunteering for a fundraiser.

Lisa: Yeah, fundraising is what keeps the lights on.

Gabe: My first foray into mental health volunteerism was for a mental health walk.

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: My volunteerism was I was a team captain. I put together a team, I raised some money. I showed up on Walk day, and then I grew from there. That was the first year, you remember it was called Gabe’s Group.

Lisa: Yeah, we got matching T-shirts.

Gabe: Yeah, we’re original at making names. The next year they asked me to do more, right. Not only was I a team captain, but I also gave a speech training other team captains and like getting people excited. And then the year after that, we volunteered to help organize the walk and put up signs. And there’s always stuff that you can do, like look around when you’re at a fundraiser. You know, at the end of it, everybody goes home, ask them if they need help tearing down, you know, all those sponsor signs that you saw along the walk path? Somebody needs to walk that walk path again and take them down. We love volunteers that can help do this. And it makes such a huge difference. I’m sure you can think of a dozen more easy mental health volunteer ideas that you can do no matter what level of recovery you’re in.

Lisa: Yes, don’t discount. Just because you can’t do a lot doesn’t mean you can’t do a little. There’s all sorts of things you could do. Get on the list to help stuff envelopes, pass out literature. You know, how you go to the library and there’s a bulletin board and it has a flier for that group? Someone had to go there and put it there. Be the person who does that. There are so many opportunities.

Gabe: The most important thing is to get engaged, call up the local nonprofits in an area that’s meaningful to you like mental health and say, look, I don’t know what I can do, but here is my skill set. Here is my available time. Utilize me. Now, remember, it’s not instantaneous right. They’re not going to be like, oh, my God, tomorrow, come in. It’s a slow build. And because you don’t know where they are, especially with COVID and the pandemic.

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: There’s a lot less, unfortunately, right now. But keep an ear to the ground, ask if they have an email list and get signed up for it. The point is, is giving back. It matters. It mattered to me. Lisa, I believe it matters to you.

Lisa: Of course, and there’s actual evidence to back this up, studies conclusively show that volunteering helps depression.

Gabe: One of the advanced volunteer activities, of course, is peer support, leading a support group, teaching classes. There’s a lot of national mental health charities that will train you to be a support group facilitator or coordinator or teach various classes that they offer. Now, I want to be very, very clear. You need to make sure that you are secure in your stability.

Lisa: And you’re pretty far along in your own recovery.

Gabe: Yeah, but it absolutely helps prevent relapse. It prevents depression, it gives you that, you know, that weekly you know, oomph, that success. Now, Lisa is a trained teacher. She taught classes. They were 12-week classes once a week for 12 weeks. I am a support group facilitator. Every Thursday for a year and a half, I sat in a church basement and facilitated a mental health support group. And we both can just not say enough about that. But we grew from smaller volunteerism. Lisa, why did you sign up to be a teacher?

Lisa: The truth? Because I had attended the class and I thought it was great and it helped me so much and I talked to the director of the group and said, oh, my goodness, this class is amazing. You need to have more of them. You need to get more people to take this class. And she looked at me and said, we don’t have more classes because we don’t have enough teachers. And I thought, oh, walked right into that. I’m not going to be able to say no now. And how many years ago was that? And here we are.

Gabe: Oh, yeah. Years and years and years, I just want to set the proper expectations of where you are in your recovery, will determine what kind of volunteer opportunities are available for you. When I first started, I liked the open ended. You know, we accept volunteers between noon and five, you know, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. If you’re here, great. If you’re not, you’re not. And then I built into OK, we’re counting on you. We need you here at noon every Wednesday. I build into that. And some volunteer opportunities, they come with training. Lisa, you had to take a, I believe, a forty-hour training class and like a certified peer supporter is, I believe, a 60-hour training class, at least in the state of Ohio. Different states have different things. To become a facilitator for the mental health support group that I led, I actually had to travel to another city, stay in a hotel for three nights and have a pretty intensive training over three days.

Lisa: So, these are more of your advanced skills, but to get a start, stuff some envelopes, do some data entry, pick up litter on the walk path. There’s always something.

Gabe: And this leads us straight in to stay connected. I know that when I was sick, I just wanted to shut the world out.

Lisa: You didn’t have the energy.

Gabe: I didn’t want anybody to see me and I didn’t want to see them and staying connected was so valuable, I was very fortunate. I did not cultivate a group. A group cultivated me. They were my mom and dad. They were my siblings who checked in on me. They were friends that even though I did everything I could to get rid of them. Well, Lisa kept coming over. I think that sometimes I could have dipped a lot lower, but people were banging on my door asking me if I was OK and I cannot stress how I just I did so little to deserve that. It’s not like something that I worked on. So my advice to you is if you have people that are banging on your door when you are well, thank them. Thank them so much. Just be like, thank you for checking in on me. When things are great, praise them for caring about you enough to show up at your house unannounced after you’ve ignored their phone call for four days. Lisa, thank you for showing up at my house unannounced.

Lisa: You’re welcome.

Gabe: After I ignored your phone call for four days. But what are some things that you can do to cultivate that group if you don’t have one, if you’re not as fortunate as I was?

Lisa: Well, yeah, long term you’re going to want to cultivate that group and basically just go out there and make friends, and you could do that through volunteering, through joining activities that you enjoy, your family, your workplace. So that’s a long-term plan for long term management. But in those acute moments when you’re really sick, force yourself, even though you don’t want to. Get up and go out with the friend who’s inviting you or answer the door or answer the phone call, you just have to force yourself because that keeps you connected to that group.

Gabe: Now, when we say force yourself, obviously, if you need medical attention, get medical attention, but if you’re wavering, I cannot tell you how many times I was like, you know what, I don’t want to. And I.

Lisa: Because you feel like it doesn’t have immediate benefit in the moment, and you’ve got enough going on. You’re like, oh, I just can’t deal with that right now. It’s just not worth it. But it is worth it. It will definitely bring you long term benefits and it also brings you short term benefits. So, when you’re waffling, oh, God, do I have the energy for this? I don’t know. I’m just going to stay home. Don’t. It’s a bad idea.

Gabe: And this is where cultivation really, really matters, one of the things that I did in my social circle was, again, when we were well. You know, so many,

Lisa: When you’re well.

Gabe: Yes.

Lisa: You got to set this up when you’re well.

Gabe: Nobody wants to discuss mental illness and mental health issues and depression when they’re well, they want to pretend that it’s never coming back. Listen, it’s going to come back.

Lisa: It’s coming back, yeah.

Gabe: So I cannot stress this enough. But Lisa and I, we know when to push each other and we also know when to be honest with each other. So I say to Lisa, hey, let’s go out to dinner and she’ll be like, you know, I just don’t want to leave my house. And I’ll be like, OK. See, the first thing that Lisa did right was tell me the truth. She told me, I just don’t want to leave my house.

Lisa: Yeah, don’t try to find an excuse, because then they’re going to find out that your excuse isn’t real, then it’s going to be a whole thing.

Gabe: Right, step number two is ask some questions. Hey, Lisa, what’s going on? Is there a reason that you don’t want to leave? Is there anything I can do? Is there something that I can do to make it better? You know, I suggested this really loud, busy restaurant late at night. What if we go more low key? What if we go to the local diner? What if we just go to a fast-food restaurant? What if we just go to a coffee shop and just sit and talk? Would that help?

Lisa: Or maybe something super low key? What if I just come over with a pizza?

Gabe: The point is, is by setting this up when you’re well, I know that I can trust Lisa to tell her the truth, which is that I just don’t want to leave my house. And Lisa knows that I have given her permission to push a little and say, you know, look, let’s alter the plan. You know, what can we do? If you don’t want to go out on a Friday night because it’s busy, let’s change to breakfast on Saturday, that kind of thing. And it doesn’t always work. You know, Lisa and I have, you know, certainly pissed each other off a lot by pushing, but it works more than you think. But for me, Lisa, trusting me enough to say, hey, look, I’m just too anxious, depressed, moody, whatever to leave my house, that’s like really meaningful when it comes to cultivating relationships because she trusts me with this. This is not the kind of thing that you tell somebody you don’t trust. This is the kind of thing that you tell a real friend. Your friends will pick up on this. But again, I have to stress.

Lisa: Gotta, you got to cover your bases when you’re well,

Gabe: When you’re well.

Lisa: You’re going to need to build up credit, friend credit in the bank, when you’re well because you’re not going to be able to do it when you’re sick. To find that friend that doesn’t mind your bad moods or your dark moods, you’re going to need someone that you’re really coming through for when you’re well. And how well do you know your friends? If they’re saying, oh, no, I can’t do it, I can’t go out, I’m too depressed, how hard can you push? How hard can you insist? No, look, you need to do this. It’s for your own good. Come on, let’s go. And at what point do you need to back off? It’s a difficult skill.

Gabe: I really can’t stress enough that part of managing depression is managing your support group, cultivating those friendships and managing the people around you, and this means that you need to have conversations when you’re sick, when you’re not sick, when you’re perfect, when you’re, you know, wavering a little bit. It just needs to be this constant communication. And one of the reasons that is, is because of their own boundaries as well. You know, maybe they’re willing to adjust their plans for you. Hey, Gabe, are you ready to go out this Friday? You know, I just really don’t want to leave my house, OK? Look, I’ve got tickets to my favorite music group or sporting event. And you being melancholy or dragging me down is not something that I’m willing to do with hundred- and fifty-dollar tickets. So you know what? I’ll catch up with you tomorrow. I love you. Thank you for being honest with me and thank you for not dragging down my event. They need to be aware of this as well. And you need to not be offended by that, because I got to tell you,

Gabe: I have ruined more than one event for Lisa where she would have preferred that I not tried, that I would have stayed home and she would have caught up with me the next day. That’s why this constant communication needs to happen. It also needs to happen when you screw up. You know, Lisa, one of the things that causes me the most amount of depression is when I know, when I know that my depression has impacted you and not talking to you about it just makes it worse. The important thing to remember here is that you need to have ongoing communication with your support system, with your friends in order to cultivate a real relationship. You need to be talking about this always, not just when you need something, not just when you’re in crisis. It can’t be the elephant in the room. And people wonder when it’s going to wreck the day. You need to weave it into your relationships because it’s just so incredibly vital to who we are as people. We suffer from depression. That’s who we are.

Lisa: We all think it’s not going to come back when we’re well and it is. It’s going to come back and you need to be ready for that.

Gabe: And when you’re ready for it, it really, really lessens its impact and having these conversations with your friends lets you avoid things like biting off more than you can chew and ruining their event. It allows them to help you. But remember, it’s really important that when you’re well, you repay people and repayment is not give them money or buy them dinner. No, when things are going well, let them pick. If you wrecked somebody’s weekend, make up for it later. Don’t dwell on the fact that you wrecked it. Make a plan to fix it. You know, Lisa, I wrecked a great many.

Lisa: Yeah, there was some high points.

Gabe: Yeah, yeah, and one of the things that Lisa and I finally learned is, one, I need to be honest when I can’t do it, because that allows Lisa to make other plans of somebody that’s not going to wreck the plans. Right. We can all agree with that.

Lisa: Those were expensive tickets, that’s all I’m saying.

Gabe: But it also made me, when I was well, find things that Lisa wanted to do, you know, how many times I’ve gone to Red Lobster with Lisa?

Lisa: Red Lobster is delicious.

Gabe: I hate this place. Like there’s nothing in there that I like, but it’s one of Lisa’s favorite restaurants. It’s probably her favorite chain restaurant, right?

Lisa: I can’t help it. Yeah, it probably is my favorite chain restaurant.

Gabe: Yeah, I hate this place, it’s awful, it’s awful in every way, but but

Lisa: Lobsterfest? 

Gabe: Yeah.

Lisa: I’m so sad for you that you don’t have the joy of Lobsterfest.

Gabe: But I go to these things because it’s meaningful to Lisa and Lisa is like, hey, Gabe has no reason to do this. He doesn’t want to. These are the kind of things that build you goodwill. And also an apology goes a long way. So many people are like, why do I have to apologize for my illness? Yeah, it’s not your fault, but.

Lisa: It’s your responsibility. Whose fault is it?

Gabe: Yeah, it’s not their fault either, right? Lisa, doesn’t it suck to have to apologize for something is not your fault?

Lisa: Yeah, something that you can’t control, but, hey, life isn’t fair.

Gabe: It really reminds me, you know, Lisa and I have a really good friend who gets migraines and she’s constantly apologizing when the migraines, frankly, interrupt our plans. But, yeah, it’s not our fault we didn’t give her a migraine.

Lisa: Right. So what do you do with that?

Gabe: Yeah, so she says, I’m sorry, we say we know it’s cool, what can we do to help? But imagine if she went the other way. Look, I have a migraine. It’s not my problem. All right? I didn’t do it. It’s not my fault. Could you imagine the reaction to that?

Lisa: No one would tolerate that.

Gabe: Yeah, we’ll be like, look, I’m sorry you have a migraine, but I didn’t do anything. You can almost hear it now. That’s how we have to be with mental illness. I know it’s rough because it feels like stigma. It feels like discrimination and it feels like one more thing that’s put upon us. But the reality is, is anybody managing any illness would probably have to apologize for it. I mean, look, you know, I threw up on Lisa��s mom. It wasn’t my fault, but I definitely owed an apology for it.

Lisa: Well, longtime listeners know there’s more to that story, but of course, we don’t hold it against Gabe because he was so apologetic after it happened.

Gabe: I felt terrible.

Lisa: He definitely made amends.

Gabe: But could you imagine if I would have said, hey, I’m five days postop, this ain’t my problem?

Lisa: Yeah, screw you. I didn’t mean to.

Gabe: I’m not going to offer to clean your car up. Nobody holds it against me because I apologized and because

Lisa: And corrected it.

Gabe: I was truly sorry and because I made amends and now it’s just, now it’s just a funny story that’s lying in another episode of the podcast that you can dig through and find. And I don’t come off so well, but much like managing depression, I did not manage my post op too well and well, that did give me just a slight bit of culpability.

Lisa: But again, no one is holding a grudge because you apologized in a sincere way.

Gabe: Lisa, to wrap all this up in a nice bow, you know, managing depression is difficult and it’s one more thing that we have to work on. If you could boil this all down to like one piece of advice, what would it be? What’s like the most important thing to remember when managing depression?

Lisa: I don’t know if it’s the most important thing, but something that it was always very helpful to me that a doctor recommended years ago was to make sure that you take time to do things you enjoy. And you’re thinking, I’m depressed, I don’t enjoy anything. Well, try to think of things that you enjoy when you’re not depressed, stuff that you normally enjoy, even if you’re not having a good time with it now. A lot of times when I get depressed, I think, well, I don’t really want to go do that activity because it’s just too much effort. But also, I know I’m not going to enjoy it, and that just makes the depression worse. It becomes this cycle because now I’m not having a good time and I know that I should be having a good time, but I’m not. That’s just really depressing. And you feel like you’re almost wasting your effort. You know, I have a finite amount that I can do this. I’m not going to waste it when I’m in such a bad mood, but it kind of pulls you out of it. I was surprised at how well that worked for me. Forcing yourself to do things that you normally enjoy is extremely beneficial. 

Gabe: The reality is, is when we only focus on the things that we hate, dislike or that remind us of being lonely, then yeah, that’s all we can focus on. Find the little things, a rerun of a television show that made you laugh or that you have fond memories of just anything, anything to pull you out of it. It really does matter in just a really, really meaningful way.

Lisa: And keep in mind, if you have reached recovery, you know it’s possible. I don’t want to say something so simplistic as, oh, this too shall pass, but it is cyclical. I have periods of depression and eventually, through treatment, it gets better. So, it can get better. It will get better. And you know that it will because that’s what has happened to you in the past and that will happen again. You just have to wait it out.

Gabe: You know, Lisa, it really sounds like you’re saying that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

Lisa: Ooohh, the best predictor of future success is past success, so you know, what you’ve done in the past that has helped and what has hurt? Try to focus on the helped.

Gabe: Rinse and repeat, just like your favorite shampoo. Thanks, everybody, for listening to this week’s episode of the Not Crazy podcast. My name is Gabe Howard and I am the author of Mental Illnesses Is an Asshole and Other Observations, which, of course, you can get on Amazon.com. But if you want to get it for less money, if you want me to sign it and you want Not Crazy podcast swag, they’re really cool stickers, head over to gabehoward.com and buy it there. I will personally mail it to you with the help of Lisa.

Lisa: I was going to say, you’re not doing that personally, I will mail it to you. Don’t worry, it will get there.

Gabe: Wherever you downloaded this podcast, please subscribe. Also rank and review, write a review. Use your words and let other people know why they should listen.

Lisa: And we’ll see you next Tuesday.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Not Crazy Podcast from Psych Central. For free mental health resources and online support groups, visit PsychCentral.com. Not Crazy’s official website is PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy. To work with Gabe, go to gabehoward.com. Want to see Gabe and me in person?  Not Crazy travels well. Have us record an episode live at your next event. E-mail show@psychcentral.com for details. 

 The post Podcast: Depression Management Hints and Tips first appeared on World of Psychology.

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[erraticfairy]

Podcast: Birthdays, COVID, and Reframing (Oh My!)

It’s that time of year again! That’s right — Gabe’s Annual Birthday Blog. Each year, Gabe looks back on the important events and lessons he’s encountered during the previous 12 months. But what events can he talk about when COVID came and stole the show? 

Join Gabe and Lisa as they discuss the Year of Coronavirus and the good and bad that came with it.

(Transcript Available Below)

Please Subscribe to Our Show: And We Love Written Reviews! 

About The Not Crazy podcast Hosts

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from Gabe Howard. To learn more, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

        Lisa is the producer of the Psych Central podcast, Not Crazy. She is the recipient of The National Alliance on Mental Illness’s “Above and Beyond” award, has worked extensively with the Ohio Peer Supporter Certification program, and is a workplace suicide prevention trainer. Lisa has battled depression her entire life and has worked alongside Gabe in mental health advocacy for over a decade. She lives in Columbus, Ohio, with her husband; enjoys international travel; and orders 12 pairs of shoes online, picks the best one, and sends the other 11 back.

    Computer Generated Transcript for “Birthdays, COVID” Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Lisa: You’re listening to Not Crazy, a Psych Central podcast hosted by my ex-husband, who has bipolar disorder. Together, we created the mental health podcast for people who hate mental health podcasts.

Gabe: Hey, everyone, and welcome to this week’s episode of the Not Crazy podcast, I’m your host, Gabe Howard, and with me, as always, in a sparkling good mood, Lisa Kiner.

Lisa: Today’s quote is from Jeremy Mortis, Age is not just a number. Aging is a collection of experiences and life lessons that give you wisdom.

Gabe: I think this is really the erosion of facts, because age is, in fact a number. The age of something is how old something is. It’s my car is seven years old. No, your car has wisdom. No, just,

Lisa: I

Gabe: Seven years old.

Lisa: I think you’re taking this a little bit too literally; it’s supposed to be encouraging because people get depressed about aging.

Gabe: Right, it’s another example of a convenient lie is better than an inconvenient truth. People get depressed about it. So rather than tell them that they’re closer to death, we’ll tell them that they’re wise. Right, because old people are revered in our society. What was the last time

Lisa: Well, sort of.

Gabe: Some, like some woman was at the grocery store and she was literally taking up the entire aisle and stopping for no reason. And people were like, that’s some wisdom right there. Look at that.

Lisa: Well, but to be fair, if you’re 20 and you do that, people act a lot differently towards you than if you’re 80 and you do that.

Gabe: You have been doing this since you were 20. I remember when you said there was nothing worse than a middle-aged woman, and this gives me so much pride.

Lisa: What did I say?

Gabe: There is nothing worse than a middle-aged woman. They think they know everything. Their cult of motherhood, the cult of motherhood.

Lisa: That’s a different concept.

Gabe: The point that I’m making, Lisa, is you have never once looked at somebody older than you and thought that they were wiser.

Lisa: Well, one, I don’t think that’s true because obviously, if you’ve done something that I haven’t done, you have more information on the subject and.

Gabe: But that’s not based on their age, that’s based on their experience.

Lisa: No, but you’ve got to assume that people who are older than you have better odds.

Gabe: Really, that’s what you’re going with? You might be smarter, so I’m going to respect you? That’s

Lisa: No,

Gabe: Abdication of fact

Lisa: No,

Gabe: Entirely.

Lisa: Ok, you’re getting way off topic, and I feel like you might be deflecting, and the reason why we’re going here today is it is time for Gabe’s annual birthday celebration. Happy birthday, Gabe.

Gabe: Ok, first off, it’s not a celebration. 

Lisa: What would you call it?

Gabe: I don’t know

Lisa: Tradition?

Gabe: Sure. Let’s go with tradition, see a little context before we get started. So, all the way back in 2014, when I was a blogger, I wrote a blog called I’m Bipolar and it’s my birthday. It was just

Lisa: He’s so good at titles,

Gabe: Yeah, I’m great at titles right. 

Lisa: Just draws you right in, I want to read that right now.

Gabe: But people did and it was popular. And a year later I wrote another one. And then I don’t know how these things work out. It sort of became a tradition. So here we are. And I’m like, OK, well, I’m a podcaster now I want to do something surrounding my birthday. Lisa said, you know, you have your own show and you can pick whatever topic you want and boom, here we are. What will hopefully be the first annual I’m bipolar and it’s my birthday podcast series. Which started all the way back in 2014 as blogs.

Lisa: That is a change because in every other blog and I reread all of them for preparation for today, you actually say things like, well, I’m never going to do this again. This isn’t going to happen just doing this. Yeah. So, wow, you’re actually committing to do another one of these next year?

Gabe: I don’t know, I think it’s one of these, you know, the

Lisa: You’re not what we call a planner for the future.

Gabe: I’m not I have people for that.

Lisa: Yeah, I understand.

Gabe: You’re my people for that.

Lisa: Ok, so to sum up, the point is that your birthday tradition is to put something out into the world. Happy birthday.

Gabe: Yeah, by the way, happy birthday, the.

Lisa: Well, the reason why it’s extra strange, right, is our birthdays are only a few days apart. Does anyone wish me happy birthday?

Gabe: Happy birthday to you, happy birthday, unsung hero Lisa, happy birthday to you. It’s very meaningful because, you know, you made me do it.

Lisa: I feel like I’m going to have to edit that down, so you really should have said it faster.

Gabe: Happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you.

Lisa: Oh, God.

Gabe: Happy birthday, dear unsung hero, Lisa, happy birthday to you. Get to the meat of it. Your idea, Lisa, to get this whole thing accomplished was that you were going to interview me

Lisa: Right.

Gabe: About the last year. So I’m glad that you picked 2020. I want to summarize.

Lisa: Ok.

Gabe: I feel that a summary is needed, I turned 43 back in 2019. Christmas was decent. You know, January was pretty good. I don’t have any complaints about February, March on sucked. There we are. 

Lisa: And that sums up the year. Yay.

Gabe: Thank you for tuning in to this week’s Not Crazy podcast, if you enjoyed it.

Lisa: I’m reading all your blogs, and when you read them back to back, it’s a little bit creepy.

Gabe: It’s depressing, is what it is.

Lisa: Yes, it is, yes, it is, but that’s your fault. The first one is quite positive. Oh, looking forward to another year of stability with bipolar disorder. Downhill after that. What changed? Why is the first one positive and then after that, you’re just nothing but doom and gloom on every birthday?

Gabe: Obviously, I wrote these all a year apart, but when Mental Illness Is an Asshole and Other Observations got published, the publisher decided to put each one of the articles next to each other. So rather than reading them a year apart, or if you reading them online, reading one and then having 51 other blogs, they’re literally back to back to back. 

Lisa: It’s interesting to read them back to back, it’s a different experience.

Gabe: And when you read them back to back, you really do see the

Lisa: The themes.

Gabe: The themes come out. I remember in one of them I said I hate my birthday. And then when I turned 40, I wrote, you know, I’ve never hated my birthday until this year. That clearly contradicts. What the hell? Am I a flip flopper? Am I a hypocrite?

Lisa: No, you’re remembering the past through rose colored glasses, strangely, because every single one you say things about, well, this year was worse than last year. Last year was so good. Everything before now was good. Things only turned to shit this year. But you say that every year. 

Gabe: Yeah.

Lisa: You only apparently find joy after the fact or you’re looking back with a completely different perspective than you had at the time. It’s a little bit weird and kind of disturbing and sad. Mostly sad.

Gabe: If you haven’t checked out Mental Illness Is an Asshole and Other Observations, you can, of course, get it on Amazon. You can also go over to gabehoward.com and grab it. But it’s very interesting. I, it was painful not to update this. It was painful to look at what is basically just blatant hypocrisy on the page come through. But I agree with Lisa. I think it’s an interesting look into the, into my mind, a mind that is somewhat compromised. Even though I’m in recovery and I have treatment, I still am who I am and I still have bipolar disorder and anxiety. And that, of course, comes with all the symptoms, you know, mania, depression, etc. And to read these things back to back really showed me that there’s so much work to do. I think that was one of the silver linings that came out of the book, because as you remember, Lisa, I wasn’t very sold on the book. I don’t know. I just.

Lisa: You lost enthusiasm for the project. Publishing something just takes much, much longer than you think that it’s going to. And you lost your enthusiasm before you were done.

Gabe: I just thought it was arrogant to sell a book of stuff that I wrote because why who would want this? I just I thought, why would people pay for this? This doesn’t make any sense. I’m really glad that the publisher saw value in it. I mean, it worked out great. I

Lisa: You should all go by it right now.

Gabe: Thank you, Lisa.

Lisa: You’re welcome. The very first blog was positive, but after that they went downhill. And in some of them, you do sum up your accomplishments from the previous year. So let’s do that because we’re going to start happy here. So what are your accomplishments from the previous year, Gabe? Share with our listeners.

Gabe: Not many, I mean, COVID really just kind of wrecked everything, I suppose a big accomplishment that I have that I think that everybody listening should give themselves credit for is a worldwide pandemic did not stop me. It didn’t stop Lisa, it didn’t stop my friends, my wife. It didn’t stop anybody listening to this podcast. And as much as I want to say, well, it did stop me, it prevented me from doing the following things that I wanted to do. Yeah, it prevented a lot of people from doing a lot of things that they wanted to do, but it didn’t stop us. Forward. momentum was made. It is true. I didn’t get a lot of things that I wanted. And frankly, I didn’t get many things that that I needed. But I got enough. Right?

Lisa: Ok,

Gabe: I got enough.

Lisa: Ok.

Gabe: I pushed forward enough. I do want to pat myself and all of my listeners and all of our fans and all of our friends and family. And you, Lisa, I want to give you credit, because we are still standing. I’m still standing in spite of a worldwide pandemic.

Lisa: It’s been a difficult few month.

Gabe: It’s been a horrible few month.

Lisa: Well, it’s more than a few months now I.

Gabe: Remember when we thought it was going to be like two to four weeks?

Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Back in June, I read this article that said, hey, this is going to be like September 11th, where even after the immediate aftermath is over, there are lasting repercussions that will continue in American society forever. And I thought, oh, my God, that is so profound. Yeah, well, here we are. Now it’s November.

Gabe: This pandemic has really been what it’s like to be diagnosed with a mental illness. This is the example that I want everybody to use with their friends and family that don’t understand because this really bad thing happened, right? We were all sitting around in the middle of March and somebody said, listen, there’s a global pandemic, which is very analogous to listen, you have major depression, bipolar disorder, anxiety disorder, schizophrenia, psychosis. Right. Like that’s a global pandemic is really bad news. Can we all agree on that?

Lisa: OK, so the analogy so far is they’re both bad news. That’s where we’re beginning our analogy, Gabe.

Gabe: Thank you for repeating exactly what I said, but calling it a summary, yes, that is what happened.

Lisa: That’s what a summary is.

Gabe: But it’s not. You used my exact words. Yes, everybody got bad news. But much like getting a severe and persistent mental health diagnosis, we all thought, OK, we’re going to buckle down, do what’s needed. This is going to be over before we know it.

Lisa: Oh,

Gabe: Right. That’s.

Lisa: I did not have faith in this analogy, but I see where you’re going. OK, never mind. I take back my previous skepticism.

Gabe: Yeah. Yeah, the whole world was like, I understand what a global pandemic is, yeah, no, you don’t. Just like I understand what bipolar disorder is. Yeah, no, you don’t.

Lisa: Yeah, good analogy.

Gabe: And we all buckled down and started doing the right things. Right. We’re like, OK, well, we’ll just do this for a couple of months and it’ll be fine. But then the treatment changed. I’m from Ohio, full disclosure. And the first treatment was, hey, social distancing. And then the next treatment was we’re going to close down restaurants. And then the next treatment was, hey, we’re going to close down salons and fitness centers. And then the next treatment is we’re going to close down all the malls. And it’s just like I don’t.

Lisa: We had a complete shutdown here in Ohio.

Gabe: Yeah, and.

Lisa: It lasted for about six weeks.

Gabe: Right, but it didn’t happen immediately, right? Once again, I got diagnosed with bipolar disorder and I got a treatment and I’m like, that’s it, that’s going to solve this problem. And then I just kept getting worse and worse and worse and taking longer and longer and longer. Just like the global pandemic, we were all diagnosed with a global pandemic and we all thought that we knew what it was, even though we didn’t. And then we got the first treatment. We’re like, great, it’s going to be over in four to six weeks, which it wasn’t. And then we got another treatment. We’re like, no problem. It’ll be over in four to six weeks after that. But then it wasn’t over. And then we got another treatment. And then all the people around us, they started giving us their opinions on the global pandemic, even though they weren’t qualified to do so. You know, when you get a mental illness, suddenly everybody around you becomes a psychologist, a therapist, a psychiatrist. Just like suddenly in the global pandemic, everybody became an infectious disease expert. All these people just popped out of the woodwork to tell you what you were doing wrong, managing the global pandemic.

Gabe: Where? Are you qualified for this? No. Just like with mental illness. Hey, what do you do for a living? I dig ditches. Oh, OK. But let me tell you how to manage your severe and persistent mental illness with all of the confidence as somebody who went to medical school. You want to know what I have learned this year? I have learned that people will way overstep their bounds with way too much confidence. And if somebody tells you that something is going to be over in four to six weeks, they are lying. From now until the end of time. If I ask somebody a question and they’re like four to six weeks, bullshit. I’m just going to scream bullshit and run out of the room. Yeah, because four to six weeks means a year and it’s still not over and we still can’t agree. And stigma is everywhere. Stigma surrounding global pandemics is everywhere. If you wear the mask, you’re a sucker. If you don’t wear the mask, you’re a sucker. If you do wear the mask, you support, I don’t even know what’s going on anymore.

Lisa: Ok,

Gabe: See? See the analogy, Lisa?

Lisa: I.

Gabe: See how the world wide global pandemic and severe and persistent mental illness is exactly the same? So I’m so looking forward to turning 44 in this environment. I can’t

Lisa: Ok.

Gabe: Even have a party. Where’s my

Lisa: Ok,

Gabe: Party?

Lisa: There’s so much going on there, just so much.

Gabe: I’m calm now.

Lisa: That is a good analogy in that when you were first diagnosed with bipolar disorder, we all thought, OK, you’re going to need to treat this, you’re going to get your treatment under control, and then things will go back to being exactly the way they were yesterday or

Gabe: Yeah,

Lisa: A few weeks earlier.

Gabe: That’s what I was waiting on.

Lisa: You’re going to take these pills, you’re going to get yourself all regulated. And in a couple of months, we’re going to be back to where we were before this diagnosis. We will be back to normal. And of course, that didn’t happen. And every single new thing that came down the line, we thought, all right, this is the one. I mean, yeah, the last thing didn’t work. But this is going to be the one where in a few months we’ll be back to normal. Oh, that second thing didn’t work. Well, the third and we had complete faith every damn time. We never once said, you know, the last five times this happened, we did not go back to normal. We still believed that’s what was going to happen. That is a good analogy in the idea of it’s just this ongoing thing and you keep thinking that the next step is going to be the one that ends it. But the reality is things never went back to normal. We did that thing where you have a new normal. You never did go back to the way that you were before diagnosis.

Gabe: I feel like what you’re saying is that things are just different now.

Lisa: Things are different now. You never did go back to what it was before. This was a profound change in your life. Nothing was ever the same again. Excellent analogies all around. 

Gabe: Don’t forget all of the people coming out of the woodwork to tell you that you’re doing it wrong and they know best despite having literally no experience or education or formal training whatsoever.

Lisa: Not as good of an analogy, but not bad. Also true. Yes, it was amazing how many people popped up to say, well, you know. Mostly to tell you that mental illness was bullshit. Occasionally to tell you about some treatment, some random person they know did that was miraculous.

Gabe: Really, you don’t you don’t see this as analogous to the global pandemic, really?

Lisa: I.

Gabe: There’s been no treatments being offered that were miraculous, that turned out to be complete bullshit proffered by anybody? You can’t think of anybody standing at a podium saying, shine sunshine on it, put bleach on it, hydro cordo quill will fix it? Really, you can’t you can’t think of anybody offering bullshit treatments that they wanted the world to follow that they themselves did not take when they got sick? Really? Nobody? You can’t think of nobody doing that?

Lisa: I feel like 

Gabe: Nobody?

Lisa: I’m talking

Gabe: Nobody?

Lisa: And you’re interrupting

Gabe: Nobody?

Lisa: Me, and

Gabe: Nobody?

Lisa: I’m having trouble getting

Gabe: Nobody?

Lisa: My thoughts organized here.

Gabe: Nobody? You can’t think of nobody?

Lisa: And you’re not helping.

Gabe: All right. Go on.

Lisa: A lot of people who were offering advice. Yeah, their advice was stupid. They had no experience with this. And it was mostly along the lines of mental illness isn’t real, suck it up. But then there was another wave of people that offered advice of, OK, mental illness is definitely real. And here’s what my second cousin’s friend’s roommate did and it completely solved it for him. So obviously this is going to be perfect for you as well. A large number of those were just stupid, acupuncture, colloidal silver, the various vitamins. But even the ones that were actually real, like, he does the following medication regimen. He does the following type of therapy. Those were actually good advices sort of in that, hey, that’s something that actually has a chance to work. But not everybody with bipolar disorder is the same. Not every piece of advice is equally valid for everyone. I don’t see that as being quite as analogous as you do. For example, other countries have a lot of opinions about how America should be solving this problem and most of them have solved it. So it’s not exactly the same.

Gabe: There are no perfect analogies, I’m not trying to say that the global pandemic and being diagnosed with a mental illness is exactly the same, that would be ludicrous. But the commonalities are there.

Lisa: They are.

Gabe: It’s serious. People die, but also some people get better. You know, that’s often been a criticism of mental health advocacy, right? This Oh, why are we so worried about it? Most people live well. Well, yeah. And then we ignore homeless people. Then we ignore really, really sick people that don’t have insurance because everybody just keeps trotting out Gabe Howard. Look, Gabe is fine. I guess it’s not that serious. I am well aware that some people use my success as a reason not to help extraordinarily vulnerable people.

Lisa: Yeah, OK, that’s a good analogy, all the people who are like, I got COVID and I’m fine, I never had any symptoms. I’m fine. Yeah, OK, good analogy.

Gabe: I don’t know anybody with COVID do you know anybody with COVID? Geez, that sounds a lot like I don’t know any mentally ill people. Do you know any mentally ill people? Or my personal favorite, you know, the only people who need to worry about this are people who are already sick or who are old. Yeah. Jeez, that sounds a lot like, you know, the only people that need to worry about mental illness are people who are in harm’s way anyways or come from broken homes or a lot of trauma. 

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: One, that’s not true. It’s not only old people or immunocompromised people that are dying of COVID. People have died from COVID that are perfectly fine, then got COVID. And yeah, it didn’t go their way. Just like there are people who come from great homes. Remember, my mom and dad love me. They’re not alcoholics who beat me every day. They’re perfectly fine people who did the best that they could. Their son just happened to have bipolar disorder. Jeez, what happened to that whole the only people with mental illness are people whose parents beat them or? We tell these things to comfort us.

Lisa: You are really good at analogies, you’re really pulling in a lot here that I did not see coming, so yay on that. We could talk for days about COVID and we have, as has everyone probably in the world. We need to bring this back to your birthday, OK? The blogs always had a thing of your accomplishments. And what you’re telling me is that not a lot going on in your professional life this year because of COVID, but you did still have some banner events.

Gabe: Sure, what were they?

Lisa: You were invited.

Gabe: I launched Not Crazy twice

Lisa: Exactly. And you got a new co-host.

Gabe: I got two new co-hosts. I launched Not Crazy with the great Jackie Zimmerman, and then COVID just trashed it. And then I got another co-host, the great Lisa Kiner, who didn’t want to do it, but said, fine. You know, just, that really describes this year for me. It’s fine. This is what I have. It’s fine. It’s not that things aren’t going well. Lisa, I love working with you, but let’s be honest, the enthusiasm for the project was lacking. It was fine.

Lisa: At first or now? Because I’m very enthusiastic, look, listen, I am radiating enthusiasm at this point, Gabe. I am so enthusiastic, but of course nobody is asking me about my accomplishments, even though it’s actually my birthday, too. But that’s OK. I’m not bitter.

Gabe: Lisa, what were your accomplishments this year? Go ahead and divulge things about your personal life that you can later cut out because you think your parents are going to hear it and not like it.

Lisa: It’s not just my parents. I just don’t feel like I should share so much on the Internet, so it was clearly a genius idea to become a podcaster. 

Gabe: I just want people to know that the reason that I don’t ask Lisa questions is because I do ask Lisa questions and she cuts them out later because she’s uncomfortable sharing.

Lisa: You knew this about me in advance. All those people, all those years who ask you your telephone number at the register, there’s no reason for these people to have my telephone number. That is unnecessary. 

Gabe: No, I think that this is just indicative of another way that I feel and have felt this year. I’m not trying to attack you. I love you. You’re my bestie.

Lisa: I love you too. Pay attention.

Gabe: But you know damn well that you do this. You know damn well that

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: You’re feigning the oh, I can’t get a word in edgewise. 

Lisa: I’m not feigning.

Gabe: I want everybody to know Lisa Kiner has no problem sticking up for herself. Remember,

Lisa: Oh, yeah, of course.

Gabe: This is the woman that tricked me into treatment and single handedly beat up bipolar disorder for me. And

Lisa: Oh.

Gabe: Now she’s like, oh, I can’t beat Gabe. Really? You can take on the illness in my mind, but you can’t beat its host?

Lisa: This is so sweet, these are like such nice things that you’re saying. You’re off topic, though.

Gabe: I’m not off topic. This has been my year.

Lisa: Ok.

Gabe: The annual birthday bipolar blog was always about the year.

Lisa: Well.

Gabe: Everything that I’ve said has happened this year. I don’t think you understand how my blogs go.

Lisa: So you don’t have a lot of professional things to tell us about this year, like many people, you’ve been slowed by COVID. Well, but there’s plenty of things happening in your personal life that have been excellent this year. Why don’t we focus on some of those?

Gabe: Ok, I almost murdered my wife. 

Lisa: COVID has been difficult with the staying at home.

Gabe: I want everybody to know, not literally.

Lisa: Does that really need to be said?

Gabe: Listen, I don’t want somebody listening to this and be like, oh, the man with bipolar disorder was almost violent, that tracks. Once again, it’s sad that it needs to be said. But, yeah, look, I love my wife very much, but I never intended to spend 24/7 with her. My wife has had to work from home and on one hand, I’m very lucky I could be isolated and alone. I have many single friends that they would be so pleased to be annoyed by a roommate or parents or a spouse. I really do get it. The grass is greener on the other side, I think, man, I wish I lived alone right now and my wife feels that way too. I’m not telling her anything that she doesn’t know. We’re not hurting each other’s feelings here. We’re just, we’d work all day and then at the end of the day, we’d come together and we’d share our war stories, we’d vent to each other. The saga of our idiot coworkers are just, those were our favorite reality shows. All those shows got canceled.

Lisa: I feel like most of your coworkers are geniuses, I just, I don’t know if you are aware of that.

Gabe: You know, in the age of Healthline.com, I’ve gotten some amazing coworkers that really help disguise the annoyance of the coworker that I had before Healthline. I’m not going to do names here, but my previous coworker, she was very difficult. She’s still difficult. But now, because of Psych Central selling to Healthline.com, I now have more coworkers to sort of water the previous annoying coworker down.

Lisa: And we’ll be right back after these messsges.

Announcer: Interested in learning about psychology and mental health from experts in the field? Give a listen to the Psych Central Podcast, hosted by Gabe Howard. Visit PsychCentral.com/Show or subscribe to The Psych Central Podcast on your favorite podcast player.

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Gabe: Hey, everyone, we’re back discussing my birthday.

Lisa: You know, now that I think about it when I said, list your professional accomplishments, how come the first thing you said wasn’t, Oh, you and I got on a podcast? How come that wasn’t the very first thing out of your mouth? And also that happened in March.

Gabe: Oh, my God.

Lisa: Oh, my God, we triggered COVID.

Gabe: Oh.

Lisa: Not really. 

Gabe: Ah.

Lisa: Careful. You’re going to get some sort of Internet conspiracy theory going.

Gabe: Well, that’s not hard these days.

Lisa: Well, the day that I was on a date and the man said to me, hey, did you know that Henry Kissinger created the AIDS virus in a lab? And I thought, wow, no need to date you anymore, but.

Gabe: You know, my favorite part of that story, though, it was another month before the two of you broke up.

Lisa: He was hot.

Gabe: I’m not faulting you.

Lisa: He was stupid hot. OK, I mean, seriously, this guy was so hot, I don’t know why he was so dumb and it wasn’t immediately evident how stupid he was. I mean, you had to, like, kind of like talk to him a little bit. But to be fair, you didn’t have to talk to him that much to get to the Henry Kissinger AIDS thing. God, that guy was hot. Anyway, going back.

Gabe: No, no, I want to say just one quick thing about the bonding of Gabe and Lisa, because the number of stupid people that I dated because they were crazy hot, it’s just a phenomenal number. Because I just I really hate stupid people. And then I met Lisa and we bonded over this mutual hatred of willful ignorance and stupidity. And then both admitted to each other that, look, we’ve dated crazy hot people who we just did not like. And I think this was a big moment in my learning about feminism, because I thought that women were above that. And you were like, why on earth would you believe that?

Lisa: That women are above dating hot guys?

Gabe: That are stupid. 

Lisa: Well.

Gabe: No, no, I knew that women liked hot guys, I just I thought that if the man was stupid that women like you would be like, I’m not dating you. You’re dumb.

Lisa: Speaking of birthdays, as I’ve gotten older, I, well, of course, now I’m married, so I guess it’s irrelevant. But as I got older, I did that less and less. You know, hot people kind of a dime a dozen, but people that you can stand to talk to, much harder to find and more attractive.

Gabe: Another moment in the great Lisa and Gabe courtship

Lisa: Uh-huh.

Gabe: Is when I asked Lisa if I was hot and she said, Oh my God, intelligence is so sexy. I said I meant physically and you’re like, you know, smart. Just the way that you think is so amazing. I’m like, once again my physical appearance and she’s like, you know, your personality.

Lisa: So attractive.

Gabe: Oh, the charisma that you exude. I didn’t press it after that, but I’m pretty sure you said I was ugly.

Lisa: I do not remember this conversation

Gabe: Does any of that sound wrong to you?

Lisa: That does sound like something I would say yes,

Gabe: Yeah, yeah.

Lisa: And I maintain smart is incredibly sexy. Yeah.

Gabe: And you know what else is incredibly sexy? 

Lisa: My husband.

Gabe: Sexy. Really, we got to bring Viroj into this?

Lisa: Who is super smart, and hot.

Gabe: You know, he’s going to listen to this episode and he’s like, why? Why did you pull me into this?

Lisa: I just felt like I should.

Gabe: Kendall always tells me, Kendall is my wife, and Kendall is like, why did you drag me into your fight? Like, No, I want you to keep your codependency delusional podcast bullshit over there. Like, keep it over there. Don’t drag me into this. And to tie it back to my birthday, that’s been the year. She has been drug into more things this year because we both work from home and I have been drug into more things. See it used to be when Kendall would get in a fight with a coworker, by the time we got together, it’d be hours old. She had time to think about it, process it, form the narrative, maybe get resolution. That hasn’t happened this year. And it’s made it very difficult. I hear her on the phone and then I walk downstairs and she starts telling me about it. And I, I sort of feel obligated to listen. Or something bad will happen that I want to rant about, rave about, bitch about whatever words you want to use. But rather than it be finely tuned at the end of the day, Kendall’s watching it in real time. We’re experiencing it together. These things never hit Gabe and Kendall together before. They always hit us separately and then we would use each other as support at the end of the day. I don’t like this.

Lisa: Nobody likes this, we all want to get out of the house, Gabe.

Gabe: I don’t like it.

Lisa: You’re not alone, you’re not special. Everybody

Gabe: I don’t like it

Lisa: Wants out of the house.

Gabe: I want out of the house.

Lisa: I need concerts and live entertainment to come back.

Gabe: Yes,

Lisa: I’m so bored.

Gabe: Yeah, that’s the other thing. What do we talk about? You know, Kendall and I used to talk about sporting events, concerts. We used to go to festivals. We love festivals, the vendors, the local artists, local music, local comedians. Kendall and I loved this. For one, it’s amazing. And two, it’s relatively inexpensive. You know, the arts festival in Columbus, Ohio, is free. We would meet all of these local artists. We’d see this beautiful art and we would go with Lisa and Lisa’s husband.

Lisa: We go every year. I was disappointed when it was canceled this year.

Gabe: The most amazing thing that happens is, Lisa, we have differing tastes on art, so I would look at this this piece of art and I’d be like, that is incredibly beautiful. And Lisa would be like, that is hideous and ugly. Keep it out of my house and.

Lisa: No, you would say, oh, my God, isn’t this amazing, this is great. I must have this in my house right now. And I’d be like, yeah, it’s all right. It looks like something you’d see in a motel.

Gabe: And then Lisa bought what can best be described.

Lisa: I have amazing taste.

Gabe: As a medieval weapon, it’s made of steel?

Lisa: Oh, yeah, I enjoy sculptures. I like that.

Gabe: It’s large and heavy. In her old condo, it hung above her fireplace. She just recently moved. So we don’t know where this 17th century medieval weaponry will be, but it’s not. It’s a sculpture. It’s a metal sculpture with, I don’t know, about 60 points. That’s not an exaggeration. It has 60 sharp metal points.

Lisa: It’s a starburst.

Gabe: No, it is the thing that you use to defend the princess when your castle is being stormed.

Lisa: No, it’s just pointy, it’s just a pointy sculpture.

Gabe: You grab a hold of it with both hands, and in Braveheart, they fought off all of the invading knights. It will pierce armor people.

Lisa: It’s beautiful and probably the most expensive thing in my house.

Gabe: It weighs as much as Lisa.

Lisa: It does not. It’s pretty heavy, though, we had to go to a lot of trouble to hang it.

Gabe: It weighs a metric ton, you carry it with a horse and you joust with it, she likes it because she thinks it’s in Braveheart.

Lisa: No, I like it because it’s beautiful, but of course, the best sculpture is the one I have that looks like a bird and is made out of garden equipment.

Gabe: It looks like a rooster. She named it Warner.

Lisa: Doesn’t look like a rooster, just looks like a bird.

Gabe: Looks like a rooster.

Lisa: I do have eclectic decorating taste.

Gabe: But we didn’t get to do that this year. I never realized, Lisa, how meaningful these disagreements were. I want to let the audience know they were never like angry disagreements. Lisa doesn’t actually care how I decorate and I don’t care how Lisa decorates, this is.

Lisa: Overall, your decorating is fine, just really bland.

Gabe: OK, first off, what I want to say, I can’t because this show is PG-13, but it starts with an F. It just it starts with an F, lady. My decorating is phenomenal. And all from local

Lisa: Bland.

Gabe: Oh, I hate you so much. This stuff is missing. And on all of these adventures, we’ve discovered all of these things that we just didn’t even know existed. I did not know that you could make a bird out of metal garden tools and then paint it, I don’t know, teal, blue and orange. This thing is ugly.

Lisa: And purple. Teal, blue, and purple.

Gabe: Ugly.

Lisa: It’s awesome, I love it, I’ve had it for years, it’s gorgeous. 

Gabe: Lisa is right, it is so ugly, it is flipped over into beautiful, it’s like those hideous dogs that are now cute. That’s what’s happened here. But we don’t have that. Lisa and I haven’t been able to discuss this at all because we didn’t go get new material to discuss. It’s the same way with my wife. It’s the same way with my friends. That’s what I remember about the last year. I used to think that all of these conversations were wasteful. They were just minutia that you used to fill your day. That’s the biggest thing that I’ve learned, that all of these boring, pointless conversations are actually the bedrock and the cornerstone and the foundation of your most meaningful relationships. I would give anything to spend an afternoon discussing what art I find beautiful that Lisa finds hideous.

Lisa: You know, this is an excellent point you’re making, it does always seem like these were random things and who cares? Because you have to fill the space. But you’re right, it is the stuff of life.

Gabe: It’s not even just the stuff of life, it’s not small talk, right? With a stranger. How are you, Gabe? I’m fine. What are you doing? Oh, I’ve got some errands to run. Well, what do you think of the weather? You don’t talk about how you hate each other’s clothes or art or taste or. That’s the kind of conversation that you have with your best friend. That’s the conversation you have with close family. That’s the conversations that you have with your spouse. And we just don’t have a lot of things to discuss right now because.

Lisa: Nothing’s happening.

Gabe: Yeah, because nothing’s happening. And we’ve gravitated toward things that frankly are not good conversation starters. You know, we spent more time complaining about politics. And listen, I think that political discourse and political discussion is extremely valuable. Disagreement does not equal disrespect. And knowing what’s going on in the world is I feel the responsibility of every American. But you’ve got to have a balance to that. For every 20 minutes that you spend complaining about the government, you should spend an hour discussing something that’s beautiful. You’ve got to have this balance. And unfortunately, politics didn’t slow down one iota. Everything else did. The counter balance has been disturbingly missing. All we can do is complain about what we’ve lost. And nobody is spending any time on anything that’s beautiful because there’s just not enough. You know, I joked, Lisa introduced to Gabe and Kendall the show Schitt’s Creek. We’d never watched it. We had no idea it existed.

Lisa: My husband found it randomly.

Gabe: Yeah, I’m serious when I say this, Schitt’s Creek saved my marriage. I’m not kidding. My wife and I binge watched all six seasons and my wife and I just loved it. And it was new. And because Lisa found it recently, that allowed us to discuss it, you know. What do you think of this episode? Well, I saw it this way. Well, I didn’t see it that way. And once again, for this brief, like six-week period, this minutia was back.

Lisa: Well, this is why the whole world stopped for Tiger King, because we were all in the perfect position to need something to talk about.

Gabe: Yes, yes, and if I learned anything this year, it’s that all of these little things that I take for granted. Well, that was a wasted day. I didn’t accomplish anything. It turns out that no, what I accomplished was actually amazing. I do have trouble connecting with people. I think the average person doesn’t understand me at all. And I often feel alone, even in a crowd of people. I feel alone and I question my value to society or the people around me. I question whether or not I’m doing any good. And there’s so many external factors. You have a podcast and you put your story out in the world. Some people think that that’s brave. Other people think that that’s arrogant. Some people think that you’re helping further a discussion about mental illness. Other people think that you’re bragging and oh, you think you’re so important that people want to hear your stupid life? What’s wrong with you? I’m constantly bombarded with this and I gravitate toward the negative.

LISA: You do. You do.

Gabe: If 100 people tell me they love me and one person tells me they hate me, I will follow the guy who hates me around and try to figure out why.

Lisa: You will. It’s really disturbing.

Gabe: It is. It’s depressing and the problem is, is that this past year, the 100 people have been gone because they’re taking care of themselves, they’re taking care of their families. They’re all trying to survive, just like all of us. Now, there’s just this constant negativity and nobody’s arguing about who’s artwork is bland, whose artwork is medieval weaponry.

Lisa: It’s beautiful, I’m telling you.

Gabe: And it may well be. 

Lisa: Viroj likes it.

Gabe: Ok, well, that doesn’t help. Viroj is the most boring person we know. Your defense that it’s not bland.

Lisa: Again, Gabe, boring men hold down jobs, and that’s super sexy.

Gabe: You say boring, I say stability. I just

Lisa: To be fair, Viroj, you’re right, does not, in fact, have good taste. But we both like it. That’s the point.

Gabe: I love the felt tiger in your bedroom.

Lisa: Viroj found it, yeah, the amusing part is we paid like three dollars for the picture and then spent substantially more to get it framed.

Gabe: You overpaid for the picture. You know, all of these articles, they all end with something that I’ve learned. Some way that I feel that I have evolved in the last year, something to take away. And even sometimes that take away is not very flattering to me.

Lisa: Of the seven, five of them are negative.

Gabe: But they’re constructive. Constructive criticism for dear old Gabe. A hard look at my life, what I wish that I could remember, lessons that I wished I’d learned, the lesson that I’ve learned is that no time spent with your friends is wasted.

Lisa: Ok, that’s a good one.

Gabe: No time spent with your loved ones is wasted. We’re all sitting around trying to evaluate whether or not the time was efficient or good or well spent. It is. It just is. I can’t even begin to tell you the number of times that I met you for lunch. And we’d sit there and talk for two hours, usually over tortilla chips and salsa. And I think, oh, well, that was two hours. I’ll never get back. You know what a waste, right? Like.

Lisa: Thanks a lot.

Gabe: I don’t mean it mean, I just I would think of all of my honey do list, all of the chores, all the stuff that I had to do for work. And I was like, oh, I just wasted like two or three hours in the middle of the day. And then all the restaurants closed,

Lisa: Right.

Gabe: Remember? And they were closed here for like ten weeks.

Lisa: That was a real problem for Gabe, that was the thing he really missed the most.

Gabe: All of a sudden, I was like, that was not wasted time, you know, venting to my friend, listening to my friend, exchanging ideas with my friend, just sitting there drinking a Diet Coke and eating chips and salsa with my friend. It turns out that it had an extreme amount of value that was only recognizable once it was gone.

Lisa: Right.

Gabe: It kind of reminds me of that coworker that everybody thinks is lazy until the coworker goes on vacation.

Lisa: Gee, has that ever happened to you, Gabe?

Gabe: No, I never once thought you were lazy, I thought you were irresponsible.

Lisa: Thank you. I think. That’s a little bit backhanded, but anyway.

Gabe: It should be a lot backhanded, I’m sad that you didn’t pick up on that.

Lisa: The other theme that runs through all of your birthday blogs is this idea that your life did not turn out the way that you expected. One of them actually says 20-year-old Gabe would look at me and be ashamed.

Gabe: I don’t know what 20-year-old Gabe is going to think of 44-year-old Gabe. It is an interesting thing, 20-year-old Gabe had really high expectations. Twenty-year-old Gabe did not expect to be twice divorced. Twenty-year-old Gabe did not expect to have all of these mistakes and regrets. 20-year-old Gabe fully expected to have six children and stay in the same job and really just garner respect from people. I think that 20-year-old Gabe would be most disappointed in the fact that I’m so easily dismissed. 20-year-old Gabe put a lot of value on integrity and commanding respect. While I feel that I have integrity, I don’t feel like I command respect. I’m so easily dismissed. I’m so easily ignored. I sit on so many panels where, well, we should probably get the patient’s voice, I guess.

Lisa: A lot of tokenism.

Gabe: I don’t think that 20-year-old Gabe ever thought that Gabe was going to be the token guy in the room? You know, I don’t think I would have known what tokenism was. It’s very probable that I would have sat on these boards and commanded a great deal of respect and talk about all the good that I was doing and have been completely unaware that I was marginalizing people because I would have seen things so much from my perspective. I’d like to think that I would have been open to listening. But, you know, 20-year-old Gabe had pretty high expectations and was awfully arrogant. I don’t want to paint myself as a bad guy. I don’t want to paint myself as somebody who was unkind or uncaring. But there was a lot that I didn’t understand. And being in this position has really allowed me to see the plight of marginalized people, because in some ways I’m a marginalized person. I do think that seeing the world for what it is has value. But, you know, ignorance is bliss. I don’t know. Is the truth better or is respect better?

Lisa: The truth is always better. That’s why you take the red pill. The truth is always better.

Gabe: I sometimes I wish I could take the blue pill, Lisa.

Lisa: The reality is better. Truth has its own intrinsic value, there’s no need to debate this.

Gabe: The truth does have its own intrinsic value, but in The Matrix where the blue pill red pill comes from, there was the guy that sold out all of his friends to be put back in The Matrix and just live happily ever after because he just couldn’t take it anymore. Now, that guy was evil and he was wrong and he was a murderer. But if we’re arguing the philosophical basis of, look, I was going to live happily ever after. I don’t know. It’s one of the things that makes the movie interesting for me. And while I’m so glad that they never made any more, I mean, the single standalone movie was really enough.

Lisa: I loved The Matrix, it was so ruined by the following movies, so ruined.

Gabe: What following? There was no following. I took the blue pills.

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: I understand that truth has its own intrinsic value and I am inclined to agree with you. And I’d like to believe that I’ve done a lot of good. But you and I both know that in most of the circles I run in, people don’t give people like me the credit for that good.

Lisa: You’re talking about how 20-year-old Gabe would feel about this, et cetera, what 20-year-old Gabe expected, but everybody always acts like there’s a time before diagnosis that you didn’t have bipolar disorder. You had bipolar; you just weren’t diagnosed. You were never mentally healthy. You always had bipolar disorder. You just were untreated. So, 20 year old Gabe didn’t know he had bipolar, but he did. And he did not expect that to ever change. He did not expect those symptoms to ever go away. He expected to always have that same internal state of the fluctuating mania and depression, the suicidality, the racing thoughts. None of that could have been pleasant. And twenty-year-old Gabe expected that to continue for the rest of his life because he thought that was normal and just the way humans are. So, when you say that twenty year old Gabe would be disappointed in the outcome now or he expected the following things that he didn’t get, well, yeah, but look at this amazing thing he got that he didn’t even know was out there. I know you’re speechless. A profound point. I know. 

Gabe: Eh.

Lisa: You got to admit that you are more comfortable now in your own brain and you’re certainly happier because you’re no longer suicidal. So there you go. Twenty-year-old Gabe thought he would remain suicidal for the rest of his life. I don’t see how that’s not a major, major increase. He did not know that this level of wellness existed that you have achieved. You can’t tell me this isn’t better than when you were constantly thinking about suicide. And twenty-year-old Gabe didn’t even know that that was a possibility. Maybe you are imagining professional success, a large family, lots of children. But that would always have been overlaid with the racing thoughts and the wanting to die.

Gabe: I can’t argue with your logic, but I think you have to understand that 20-year-old Gabe was kind of a jackass.

Lisa: I know.

Gabe: You know, he was depressed, but he was also manic and grandiose. And I just I think maybe I just don’t want to get in an argument with him.

Lisa: You always use your birthday as a time to look back and in one of your blogs, you write the ghost of bipolar past win. You use this time to look back and say, oh, I didn’t do this, I didn’t do that. I’m so sad. I wanted this. I didn’t get that. Why? Why is that the thing that you do? Why is it not the looking back on wow, I never knew that you could just sit on your couch and not think about dying. That is so awesome. How come that’s never your thought process?

Gabe: I’m pessimistic by nature. It’s a fair question and it’s a reasonable question, and it’s one of the reasons that I always like to write these blogs all by myself and not involve you, because I don’t like to be challenged on my stupid thoughts. It’s hard to get out of the habit, right. I’m sincere when I say that I am better off today than I have been probably at any other point in my life. And I do recognize that logically, intellectually, I know that to be the case, but I don’t feel it.

Lisa: I can’t discount that, yeah, your feelings matter much more than logic sometimes. Your feelings are your reality. So, I don’t want to dismiss that outright. But you do see it, right? You do see.

Gabe: Oh, I can. There has never been a problem seeing it. It’s always been a feeling.

Lisa: Well, this is what CBT is for, you actually need to change your own internal thought processes and feelings.

Gabe: Seriously, are you telling me to go to therapy? Are you like, hey, Gabe, thanks for doing a birthday podcast, by the way, you should go to therapy? Like I never thought of that before. I’m going to just lose weight. I’m going to exercise more. I’m going to give forgiveness that I’ve been denying. I’m going to go skydiving, Rocky Mountain climbing, going to do something with a bull.

Lisa: I hate that song. I would not need to do all of that if I found out that I was terminally ill because I’m already a good person. I don’t need to get sick to suddenly realize I have poor morals. Also, why wasn’t he doing all this stuff before? I went skydiving. Why do you have to wait to find out you’re dying to go skydiving?

Gabe: I think it’s really just maybe an example of we put things off.

Lisa: You know how I live, like, completely not for the future ever? Boom, turns out I’m a genius.

Gabe: Yeah, yeah, when you can’t pay your mortgage, everybody agrees.

Lisa: Well, I have to admit, I do not have a fully funded retirement account, but my electronics are awesome.

Gabe: See, you always say that, but I have a fully funded retirement account and my electronics are all better than yours.

Lisa: Eh, matter of opinion. Also, that’s another thing I’ve really missed for the pandemic is traveling.

Gabe: Yeah, see, that’s what you should have gone with. You have shitty electronics, but, oh my God, you have so many stamps in your passport.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah, I will go with that.

Gabe: No, you can’t retroactively change it.

Lisa: Why not? Of course I can, I’m the editor. 

Lisa: You’re always talking about how you’ve disappointed the expectations of 20-year-old Gabe, well, 20-year olds are all idiots. What about the expectations of 30-year-old Gabe or thirty-five-year-old Gabe or 40 year old Gabe? Have you met those expectations?

Gabe: I think that’s an incredibly valuable question, because 30-year-old Gabe was starting into recovery with bipolar disorder and thinking about stuff like buying a house, starting a business, getting a job, you know, just really reaching stability. But then, of course, we got divorced. And that was kind of a blow to my ego a little bit because I didn’t want to be divorced again. But then again, even through our divorce, I wanted to be in a stable relationship and I absolutely achieved this. It’s not a fluke. Kendall and I have been together for eight years. We celebrated eight years of marriage during a global pandemic. So, I feel this one is going to stick. So, yes, I think that 30-year-old, 35-year-old Gabe would probably be pretty damn proud of me.

Lisa: Oh, that’s wonderful.

Gabe: You know, he understood bipolar disorder. He didn’t know if I could make it. He’s kept the weight off. You know,

Lisa: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Gabe: Remember, 30-year-old Gabe was like, OK, well, you’ve got all the weight off. But, you know, there was always this big asterisk, like, look, everybody else we know that got this surgery, they gained all the weight back, dude. I never gained the weight back. I’m coming up on, what, year 17? And I’ve still kept the weight off. I bought the house. Hell, I, I even got the Lexus. I

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: Remember, you know, that was twenty-five-year-old Gabe that wrote that Lexus on the board. And I got it, I got the Rolex. I got the stable relationship, I pretty much got everything but children which you know, many people who want kids don’t have kids. That’s not really outside of the norm. 

Lisa: The dog is already quite the burden to Aunt Lisa.

Gabe: That’s very true, but, yes, I think that’s a nice reframe, Lisa. I love reframing.

Lisa: Love the reframing.

Gabe: As you know. I don’t know why my birthday gets me. I think it’s because I feel that I’m chronically behind and I’m running out of time. I feel that I’ve lost so much time that I’ll never get it back. I feel like I always have more to do. And I’m not getting closer. I feel like I should have been further along, that I should have done more. And some of that is comparing myself to others. I, I.

Lisa: Well, let’s talk about reframing, you keep saying, oh, failure, failure, failure, unhappiness, what would it take for happiness? What would you need to have happen? You keep saying, oh, I haven’t met my goals. You know, you don’t actually have any clearly defined goals.

Gabe: That’s not true.

Lisa: Maybe that’s why you’re not meeting them.

Gabe: My goal is to be happy. 

Lisa: Ok,

Gabe: My goal is to, OK, you ready?

Lisa: I’m ready.

Gabe: Here it is.

Lisa: This is very, I’m writing this down.

Gabe: Step one,

Lisa: Ok,

Gabe: Underpants. Step two. Step three, profit, I have learned from the underpants gnomes.

Lisa: [Laughter]

Gabe: Lisa, thank you. Thank you sincerely for hanging out with me on my birthday. It’s a cool thing to do. It is very, very cool that we are only five days apart. So, I want to extend a heartfelt and warm happy birthday to you.

Lisa: Thank you, Gabe. Happy birthday.

Gabe: You know, Lisa, what you should have said is that five days is where all the wisdom is kept. You know, you never remember your quote. 

Lisa: You’re better at that. 

Gabe: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for listening in. My name is Gabe Howard and I am the host of the Not Crazy podcast. And I’m the author of Mental Illness Is an Asshole, which you can get on Amazon.com. But if you head over to gabehoward.com, I will sign it. It will be cheaper and I’ll include a bunch of show swag. You want Not Crazy podcast stickers absolutely free? This is the way. Just head over to gabehoward.com. If you loved the show, please subscribe. Also use your words and tell other people why they should listen.

Lisa: Don’t forget the outtake after the credits, and we’ll see you next Tuesday.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Not Crazy Podcast from Psych Central. For free mental health resources and online support groups, visit PsychCentral.com. Not Crazy’s official website is PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy. To work with Gabe, go to gabehoward.com. Want to see Gabe and me in person?  Not Crazy travels well. Have us record an episode live at your next event. E-mail show@psychcentral.com for details. 

 The post Podcast: Birthdays, COVID, and Reframing (Oh My!) first appeared on World of Psychology.

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[erraticfairy]

Podcast: Families and Holiday Survival

Is your family bad for your mental health? If so, how do you handle the holidays? In today’s show Gabe and Lisa reminisce about their family holidays together — the good and the horrible — and discuss how they currently curb controversial topics at the table.

Join us for a bad trip down memory lane which leads to a whole lot of bickering and laughter.

(Transcript Available Below)

Please Subscribe to Our Show: And We Love Written Reviews! 

About The Not Crazy podcast Hosts

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from Gabe Howard. To learn more, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

        Lisa is the producer of the Psych Central podcast, Not Crazy. She is the recipient of The National Alliance on Mental Illness’s “Above and Beyond” award, has worked extensively with the Ohio Peer Supporter Certification program, and is a workplace suicide prevention trainer. Lisa has battled depression her entire life and has worked alongside Gabe in mental health advocacy for over a decade. She lives in Columbus, Ohio, with her husband; enjoys international travel; and orders 12 pairs of shoes online, picks the best one, and sends the other 11 back.

    Computer Generated Transcript for “Holiday Survival” Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Lisa: You’re listening to Not Crazy, a Psych Central podcast hosted by my ex-husband, who has bipolar disorder. Together, we created the mental health podcast for people who hate mental health podcasts.

Gabe: Hey, everybody, and welcome to this week’s episode of the Not Crazy podcast, I’m your host, Gabe Howard. And with me, as always, is Lisa Kiner. Lisa.

Lisa: Hey, everyone, and today’s quote is from Leo Tolstoy, All happy families are alike, every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.

Gabe: I hate that we’re introducing the subject of surviving the holidays by talking about how unhappy our families make us.

Lisa: I’ve always liked that quote.

Gabe: I, no, it’s, I mean, it’s a great quote, the grass is always greener. Everybody’s dysfunctional, right? We all get it. We’re all miserable.

Lisa: That’s not.

Gabe: That’s not what it means? What do you think it means?

Lisa: It means that everyone’s dysfunction is unique.

Gabe: Right, but that also means that everybody’s dysfunctional.

Lisa: No, it doesn’t. Although I also do believe that, but it doesn’t, no, that’s not what it implies at all.

Gabe: But don’t you see it as a way to say, like, well, yeah, they’re happy, but don’t worry, they still have dysfunction. So that way if you’re in a dysfunctional family, you can be like that family seems happy. But Leo Tolstoy reminds me that they’re screwed up too.

Lisa: I see it as, yeah, that family looks happy, but that just means they’re from Stepford, that they don’t have any uniqueness or personality, they’re just a bunch of bland, boring. I don’t know what’s something boring? Oatmeal? Porridge?

Gabe: Oatmeal?

Lisa: I don’t know.

Gabe: Oatmeal and porridge. You went straight to food,

Lisa: I’m trying to think of something bland.

Gabe: All of our analogies surround food. 

Lisa: Beige, I don’t know

Gabe: Beige, yeah.

Lisa: Well, what? What’s? Help me on this one, what do people say when they’re trying to indicate blandness?

Gabe: I mean, usually, like your husband?

Lisa: Ha-ha.

Gabe: He’s pretty boring. It’s not his fault. I mean, he’s got to be like, you’re way this way. So he’s got

Lisa: Right,

Gabe: To be way the other way to balance you out.

Lisa: The great thing about boring men, Gabe, is they can keep a job.

Gabe: I mean, it’s true

Lisa: Yeah, yeah.

Gabe: That he is more stable than I am, but I’m more fun.

Lisa: You are definitely more unpredictable.

Gabe: You ever notice that, like popular culture, you know, television shows, movies, even in books, they’ll have a wealthy family, they’ve reached a pinnacle of success that we envy. But within that enviable wealth, they make sure to show that, oh, they have nannies because they’re not spending time with their children. Oh, they’re so busy. So they’re not as close.

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: And then they show the middle class family. And yeah, they’re having all kinds of financial problems. But they’re so close and loving and together. So they’re just making sure to tell you that, yes, even though they’re rich, you’re still better because you and your family are closer. That’s what that quote reminds me of.

Lisa: That’s a mechanism of social control. It’s one of those things like an honest day’s work for an honest day’s pay or, you know, it’s one of those type things, these things that encourage poverty to continue. Because after all, rich people, they aren’t really happy and they don’t really love each other. See you’re poor, or even middle class, but it’s OK because you have love, which is really more valuable in the end. It’s a way to reinforce the class structure.

Gabe: I completely agree with that and what we’re talking about, mechanisms of social control, that’s how a lot of people feel about the holidays. We like the holidays, but holidays have this controlling mechanism, right? You’re expected to spend time with friends and family. You’re expected to eat turkey on Thanksgiving. You’re expected to give gifts for Christmas and other December holidays. Whereas the rest of the year you can just be a curmudgeon that never calls your mom, but you better call your mom over the holidays. And that to many people, especially people who will find their families frustrating or even toxic, that holiday social control is bad for them because all of a sudden, even though they don’t want to spend time with friends and family and I don’t know why they’re your friends if you don’t want to spend time with them. But even though they don’t want to spend time with their families, society is pushing them in that direction.

Lisa: Yes, there are a lot of expectations for the holidays and you can’t escape them.

Gabe: I like that word, expectations, when we’re talking about surviving the holidays. How do you survive the holidays if you have to spend time with friends and family? And I don’t know why I keep saying friends and family, like, why are they your friends if you don’t like them?

Lisa: Sorry, that’s not funny at all,

Gabe: I’m giving Lisa the huh?

Lisa: I can’t, I can’t relate to that situation in any way.

Gabe: Why are we friends? 

Lisa: A question for the ages.

Gabe: I’m not spending the holidays with you. Sincerely, Lisa, if it’s March, April, May, June, July, and we consider our families bad for our mental health, we’re dodging mom and dad’s call like it’s a job. Like we’re so amazing at just missing that call and making sure that we don’t send it to voicemail because, you know, mom and dad have figured out that two rings means that you dismissed their call. But if you let it ring all the way through. We’re really great at making sure that we call them back when we know that mom and dad are at bowling league. Like all these games that we play. But suddenly November and December hits and we’re like, well, all right, I’m going to do it. I suppose we could just do an entire podcast on the psychology of why the holidays make us do things that are frankly, potentially against our best interest. But let’s go in a positive direction and say that this is an opportunity to mend fences. It’s an opportunity to maybe build a bridge with mom and dad who we love. Do you love your parents, Lisa?

Lisa: Of course.

Gabe: Nah, is that, is that the, of course, answer like, are you more likely to decline an invitation in June than you are in December?

Lisa: No, you’ve actually complained about that several times.

Gabe: Yeah, but that was back during our marriage when I stole your youth. How do you feel now that your youth is gone?

Lisa: Obviously, all adult children have difficult relationships with their parents.

Gabe: I love how you say that, no, that is not true, not all the, all of our listeners do, but not all adults. I think you’ve been hanging out with a Not Crazy fan base too much.

Lisa: All adult children have difficult relationships with their parents, but, for example, I think mine is less difficult than the average and is less difficult than yours.

Gabe: Are we getting ready to play what I like to call the family suffering Olympics?

Lisa: Ooh, family suffering Olympics. On the one hand, I feel like you’re going to win, but I don’t know, I got some contenders.

Gabe: It’s interesting, though, our families are very different, and when I say they’re very different, it’s sort of amazing to me, Lisa, because they’re actually quite the same. Like you pointed out, we

Lisa: Yeah, they’re actually almost identical.

Gabe: No, I’m not trying to be mean. And I am completely fascinated that you think that we’re similar based on both being from the Midwest. So in your mind, a Harvard graduated lawyer from Columbus, Ohio, and let’s say, oh, I don’t know, a homeless guy from Ohio are similar because they were both born in Ohio?

Lisa: I just feel like the two of us were both the oldest, we grew up in nuclear families, we have younger siblings, you know what I mean?

Gabe: First off, you have younger sibling, 

Lisa: That’s true.

Gabe: I have younger siblings. So my parents already screwed me harder than your parents screwed you. I got two, two, Susan and Gary spawn to contend with. You only have one Leroy and Susan spawn to contend. Ooh, that’s why you think they’re the same. Both of our mother’s names are Susan.

Lisa: That is true, yeah.

Gabe: Huh, I do think this is fascinating that you think that our families are so similar. And one of the reasons that I sort of reject this outright is because once again, my family did not believe in higher education nor have higher education. Your family believed in higher education, had higher education, and from the second you were born, started working on you to go to college. Whereas the second I was born I had a different father because I was adopted. So there’s some major differences. My mother, a stay at home mom. She was a homemaker and proud of it.

Lisa: I guess that is a difference.

Gabe: Your mother makes snide remarks about homemakers calling them non feminists, so.

Lisa: Ok, one, no, that’s ridiculous, feminism is about choosing and you can obviously choose to stay home or not, it does not have any bearing. My mother would never say that. That’s ridiculous.

Gabe: Ok, but she thinks it.

Lisa: No, she doesn’t. She, as I was growing up, most of the people around us did have stay at home moms. And my mom did not stay at home. She worked. And, you know, she got a lot of crap for that. But no, that doesn’t mean she. No, no, no, no.

Gabe: You know, I never thought of it that way. I looked at it as the crap that she was dishing to stay at home moms. You raised a very good point there, that your mother was unique in that she was one of the few working mothers and that the stay at home moms gave her crap for that.

Lisa: Constantly, it really annoyed her.

Gabe: That had to be difficult for her. OK, I stand corrected. Both sides have been seen. You are right. The point that I’m making is look at that. The group that my mother associated with raising me was the group that frankly and I’m not trying to be mean to my mom, but my mom doesn’t like daycare. My mom doesn’t like babysitters. My mom doesn’t like kids being raised by anybody but family members. So therefore, sorry, mom, she looked down her nose at your mom. You raise a very good point. So when you say that our families are the same, you can see why I kind of roll my eyes

Lisa: I.

Gabe: Knowing that our mothers were at direct odds about the best way to raise children. Also, did I mention my mom got pregnant in high school? Your mother didn’t get pregnant in high school.

Lisa: I guess I was honestly surprised to hear you say that you don’t think our families were the same. I feel like our families were pretty much identical. You’re pointing all these things out and they make logical sense. But, yeah, I’m not feeling it.

Gabe: Has your father once raised his voice at you?

Lisa: Oh, God, no.

Gabe: Well, now, wait a minute, hang on a second, you said our families were the same. My father once woke me up in the middle of the night to scream at me because I didn’t hack a satellite dish so that he could get free pay per view. Did your father ever wake you up in the middle of the night to commit a felony?

Lisa: You are really not painting your parents in a flattering light, and they’re actually perfectly fine,

Gabe: You said they were the same, if they’re

Lisa: I.

Gabe: The same, this means that your parents aren’t being painted in a flattering light either.

Lisa: Again, I know you are raising valid points, and intellectually I can agree with this, you’re right, there are a lot more differences than I had thought of before. And I guess some of these are meaningful. But I still have this, like, emotional feeling about it that our families are the same. I’m like, I’m not actually realizing this. No. I feel like we grew up pretty much the same way. But I see what you’re saying. I see what you’re saying.

Gabe: Has my mother ever hazed you?

Lisa: It’s a sign of affection, Gabe. She was trying to invite you into the group.

Gabe: Ok, so my mother invites people into the group by cooking them food. Your mother invites people in the group by being mean to them in public, but they’re the same.

Lisa: She’s making you stronger. She wanted to make sure you could take it.

Gabe: I could not.

Lisa: No, you crumbled, you crumbled immediately, it was ridiculous, yeah, you could not take it.

Gabe: Remember when I fell apart at Christmas,

Lisa: Yes, I do.

Gabe: So this is where this is headed, ladies and gentlemen.

Lisa: Just love the Christmas memories.

Gabe: Thanks for bearing with us. One year at Christmas, when Lisa and I were still married, Lisa’s parents got her a portable DVD player. Now, about a month before Christmas, they had asked me if Lisa would like a portable DVD player, and I said, no, Lisa has a laptop and the laptop has a DVD player and the DVD player will play DVDs on Lisa’s laptop. There’s no reason for a portable DVD player with a smaller screen that’s just a DVD player. Christmas Day arrives. And Lisa, what you get for Christmas?

Lisa: I got a portable DVD player.

Gabe: Lisa got a portable DVD player. Now they pointed out that this portable DVD player did not have a computer built in.

Lisa: I know, you kind of had to be there, but, yeah, there seemed to be a lack of understanding of how the technology worked. Yes.

Gabe: So, Lisa, ever the good daughter was like, oh, thank you, mom and dad, kiss, kiss. Another difference between my family and your family, by the way, because I would have chucked it at my mom’s head and been like, what the hell? I told you I didn’t want this, lady. But again, our families are the same, yet different.

Lisa: That’s ridiculous, you cannot criticize a gift, someone gives you a gift, you say thank you.

Gabe: My family does not do that, my family gets mad, picks it apart and is judgmental as hell. I like this about us. It’s my favorite part of Christmas.

Lisa: Your mother gave me that ugly sweatshirt and I kept it the entire time we were together and made a point of wearing it in front of her, because that is what one does with a gift, you horrible, ungrateful person.

Gabe: That is not what my family does. That is what your family does, proving the differences. But anyways, back to the DVD player. Christmas Day wears on. And Susan Kiner, I do want to take a brief break. Lisa’s parents are, in fact, wonderful people. And they gave me my best friend in the whole world. So I just so I apologize in advance for what’s about to come out of my mouth.

Lisa: Mm hmm.

Gabe: But Lisa’s mom looks at me

Lisa: Oh, for God’s sakes,

Gabe: Now, she’s this tiny woman.

Lisa: She’s not tiny, she’s six feet tall,

Gabe: But she’s thin as a rail,

Lisa: She is very thin, yes.

Gabe: She weighs half as much as your 300 pound, 6’3″, young and able bodied, virile husband. Remember, I was younger and virile back then.

Lisa: Oh, this is so wrong.

Gabe: And she looks at me and says, Gabe, did Lisa like the present? And I said, of course, she loved the DVD player. Gabe did Lisa like the present? And I said, of course she loved the DVD player. Gabe. No, she hated it. I told you she already had one, Sue. I don’t know what you want. She has a computer that has the DVD player in with a bigger screen. At this point, Lisa went nuclear. Whatever year it was, if you look at like the radioactive fallout in the world, it went up on Christmas Day. Like what actually happened is I told her mother that she didn’t like the present. What Lisa thought happened is that I killed a kitten. It was it was just like her anger level was off the charts.

Lisa: Because I had specifically told you not to do that, you already understood the gift giving rules, it wasn’t that hard. All you had to do was say yes, what a great gift. Thank you, Susan.

Gabe: I did. Twice,

Lisa: Thank you.

Gabe: She knew. She could see through my soul.

Lisa: Oh, my God. OK, and that’s what he kept saying. I said, what is wrong with you? Why could you not just say, yes, thank you for the gift? And he says, Oh my God, I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t do it. Your mother was looking at me.

Gabe: She was looking at me.

Lisa: A middle aged nurse was looking at you and you lost your shit. Really?

Gabe: Your mother, though, now come on, your mother,

Lisa: She was looking at you?

Gabe: Your mother once told me a story of where in an operating room she grabbed a hold of a man’s ribcage during heart surgery, put her foot up on the operating table and started tugging on it as hard as she could. And you wonder why I buckled?

Lisa: You are making that up. That never happened.

Gabe: I am not making that up. She told me that story. She also told me they use Craftsman tools. 

Lisa: All right, I

Gabe: She said they use Craftsman tools.

Lisa: I don’t know if, I assume they probably do, they’re high quality tools. I have a whole set of screwdrivers. I don’t know.

Gabe: See, your mother is scary.

Lisa: Oh, my, are you this scared of all nurses and doctors? Well, never mind.

Gabe: Yeah, what are you talking to? I’m terrified of them, like.

Lisa: Ok, anyway, the point is you lost your shit. You had this whole oh my God, she’s looking at me. I can’t take it. I crumble. I just, I just fall apart immediately, like a Kleenex. I just can’t take it.

Gabe: It wasn’t immediately

Lisa: Really?

Gabe: I held for two times.

Lisa: It would not have killed you to love the DVD player, plus, of course, they would have given us the receipt, we could have returned it, not a problem or taken it for store credit. Not the point.

Gabe: You were sitting right there, you knew I was going to crumble. Why did you not stop her?

Lisa: I was not sitting right there. I came into the room midstream, if I’d been sitting right there, I would have stopped this. Yeah, completely lost your shit. Told my parents I didn’t like their gift. I’m still pissed about that, frankly,

Gabe: Shocker, Lisa is still

Lisa: I’m just saying.

Gabe: Pissed about something that happened when we were married

Lisa: It wouldn’t have killed you to say thank you, Susan, for the gift.

Gabe: The good news is.

Lisa: What point are you getting to?

Gabe: The point that I’m getting to, is that this was a good Christmas.

Lisa: [Laughter]

Gabe: This is what happened when things were going well during the holidays for Gabe and Lisa. We had way worse holidays. Do you remember the holiday? And I’m not going to say whose family it is to give cover. Do you remember the holiday when one of our distant cousins. I think it was a cousin. Just for unknown reasons, just unleashed this litany of racial slurs around the table?

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: Like we were just like and then when you and I started to run interference, the other members are like, oh, don’t cause trouble. You’re never going to change their mind. And we were just flabbergasted. And then do you remember the other holiday where a member of the family again, I don’t want to tie this to either one of our families, but who is a member of the LGBTQ+ community came with

Lisa: Yeah,

Gabe: Their significant other and

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: The whole family just lost their shit at seeing this relationship in front of them. And you and I just had to do everything we could to calm people down because.

Lisa: And what do you do?

Gabe: Are you ready? Because there was people in the room who were slightly different from them. Yet, members of the identical family.

Lisa: Well, also, it didn’t make any sense. You knew she was gay. What? What? That made no sense.

Gabe: I got nothing. I can tell you that I do believe good things came out of these hard discussions and these moves from our comfort zones. And Lisa, we were upset about both of those things for a long time, and we

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: Took pot shots at each other’s families, which was clearly the wrong way to handle it for a long time. And then we started playing the holiday family suffering Olympics.

Lisa: Family suffering Olympics.

Lisa: There were also some other high points, I mean, you know, you’ve always got that drug addict shooting up in the driveway.

Gabe: There was that.

Lisa: That was a fun year. Yeah.

Gabe: You know, I feel confident in saying that that was one of the ones that happened to both our families, I think maybe it drew us together. I just. 

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: These are hard things. These are hard things to have happen in your family. And they’re hard things to watch and they’re hard things to know how to navigate. And this is where our families are a lot alike, Lisa. You’re right. The way that both of our families tried to handle these things was just to push it under the rug, complain silently to each other behind people’s backs, pretend that everything was OK in person. We never really got a lot of resolution on some of this stuff. We got resolution years later. We did not get resolution on the day. And in fact, whenever you and I would speak up, we would get the don’t ruin the holidays, don’t ruin Thanksgiving, don’t ruin Christmas, don’t ruin the visit. You’re making everybody uncomfortable. And

Lisa: Let’s not even.

Gabe: And this elephant was in the room making everybody uncomfortable, but yet discussing it and coming to some sort of resolution, you became the bad guy. Now, I don’t know how our listeners are, but Lisa and I, we well, we have just a history of not keeping our mouths shut. So we pushed back hard on this, which did, in fact, make the holidays more uncomfortable.

Lisa: But that’s why it’s so annoying. It’s always amazing the hypocrisy of the person who brings up the horrible, terrible thing isn’t the bad one. The person who starts using the racial slurs is not the bad one. It’s the person who objects to it. Yeah, you’re the problem.

Gabe: Lisa, this is a very serious question I’m about to ask you, and I want you to take a beat before you answer. Don’t answer with what you think is going to make you sound best. Don’t answer with what makes you think is going to make me happy. Like like be honest.

Lisa: Uh-oh.

Gabe: Do you think that we could have handled this better? Our tact back then was just to push forward screaming and point out how awful these people were.

Lisa: There wasn’t actual screaming.

Gabe: There was for me. The wrath of Gabe, come on,

Lisa: Well.

Gabe: I am well known in my family for being a screamer.

Lisa: Well, that yeah, that my family doesn’t do that.

Gabe: Oh, but I thought our families were the same.

Lisa: Ok. All right, you’re making many fine points. Yes.

Gabe: One of the reasons that I keep going back on this, just to take in a little aside before we get back to the question is because I think people do this, I think people decide that all families are the same way too easily. You’ve decided that because we’re the same age, because we’re best friends, because our parents are married to each other and because we both grew up in Ohio, that we must be the same. Do you see how dangerous that comparison is?

Lisa: Well.

Gabe: You’ve just determined that my parents are the same as your parents. That is utter nonsense.

Lisa: We’re all in it together.

Gabe: You know, of course, but you realize that you can recognize differences without being disrespectful. You’ve decided that in order to like people or to get along or to find common ground, we must also have agreement. We must be the same.

Lisa: I think that’s way oversimplifying what I’m saying here.

Gabe: You are pretty stuck on the idea that our upbringing was identical. I don’t think it’s an oversimplification at all, the minute that I pointed out that my family was blue collar and your family was white collar, that for most people would have been enough to do it. That and that alone. The minute I brought up that I’m adopted and you’re not, that would have been enough to do it for most people. I mean, just on and on and on it is

Lisa: We had the same toys?

Gabe: No, we didn’t

Lisa: We had the same cartoons?

Gabe: No, you didn’t even have cable,

Lisa: Well, no.

Gabe: I had Beavis and Butt-Head and you had reruns of The Brady Bunch on a station that had a clown.

Lisa: A clown? You call him a clown? Superhost was not a clown.

Gabe: What was he? He had white makeup and a red nose.

Lisa: He was, he was himself. He cannot be explained. Anyway, anyone from northern Ohio knows what I’m talking about. Next.

Gabe: But we’re exactly the same. I grew up in the big city, you grew up in rural Ohio, and yet you still maintain that we’re the same.

Lisa: You’re making a good point.

Gabe: How many more differences do I have to point out?

Lisa: Yeah, the TV thing, sometimes I’m at a bit of a loss on pop culture because I didn’t have some of that stuff growing up.

Gabe: It’s really amazing to me that you did not have Beavis and Butt-Head, but you did have Daria.

Lisa: Oh, I had Daria when I got to college.

Gabe: Oh, that’s right. You went to college and I didn’t. Hmm. The similarities just keep mounting.

Lisa: I’m sure it’s different now because people have the Internet, but back then, if you had not had cable TV and MTV and then you suddenly got it when you were 17 for the first time, it was amazing. Oh, so much TV. I could not look away.

Gabe: Now, Lisa, just out of curiosity, when summer came around. 

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: The air conditioning setting. Your family set it at what? My family was like a 78 when my dad wasn’t home, when my dad was home, we set it at 74. Now, your family set your AC on what?

Lisa: We did not have air conditioning, yes.

Gabe: Ok, that’s fine. You know, a lot of people don’t have air conditioning. That’s no big deal. Now, the thermostat for your heat, because you had heat, otherwise you’d freeze to death. What was the heat that you set the thermostat for on your house? What was that?

Lisa: The point he’s trying to make is that my family heated with wood,

Gabe: You mean you didn’t have a furnace?

Lisa: The joke that he likes to make is, oh, what happened then? Did Pa Ingalls bring out his fiddle?

Gabe: Did he?

Lisa: To be fair, my father did play the piano. Anyway. Not the point.

Gabe: Your father plays all the instruments because he’s a teacher.

Lisa: So

Gabe: Remember what my mother said about being a teacher?

Lisa: No.

Gabe: This is an exact quote from my mother. I could never be a teacher because on the second day I would murder the children and go to prison.

Lisa: Your mother actually said that?

Gabe: Have you met my mother? Does she look like she have the patience to teach a bunch of teenagers?

Lisa: Well, so you wouldn’t have thought that my. But apparently he did. He was a very successful teacher, very popular.

Gabe: Once again, your compliments always have this twinge, you know, you wouldn’t have thought so because he’s such a screw up, but he was actually a very good teacher. Let me put this in other words, Lisa.

Lisa: No, because he seemed so quiet, not a screw

Gabe: You know, you wouldn’t think that Lisa was a good friend based on her personality and overall demeanor, but she’s actually quite competent at it. You feel good now, right?

Lisa: Do you remember that time when we were married and I needed some crushed ice, so I took some ice and I put in a bag and I hit it with a hammer?

Gabe: Yeah, that was

Lisa: And it freaked you out? You said, what are you doing? I said, I need crushed ice. And how do you get crushed ice? How did your parents get crushed ice? And you said we had an ice maker like normal people. Yeah, pffft. City people.

Gabe: Really, we’re city people? And that makes you different in some way?

Lisa: Huh? Again, I’m still not getting it. Back, you’re distracting me. Back to the question of how should you handle the difficult holiday thing with your family? And your question was, could we have handled this better? And yes, we could have handled it better by doing the thing that your family now does, which is brilliant. And I’m trying to introduce to my own family, which is.

Gabe: We don’t discuss religion or politics.

Lisa: Oh, it’s more than that.

Gabe: We just avoid basically all of the topics that we can’t agree on.

Lisa: But everybody does that, you’ve got it at a whole nother level.

Gabe: We have worked very hard as a family to figure out all the things that we disagree about and put them off the table and focus on all the things that we do agree about, which there are so many. This was probably the biggest thing that my family did, and it was not easy. And we absolutely fall back into old routines. And I’m not saying that we’re perfect, but we work very hard that when a disagreement comes up, we just shelf it. We’re just like, you know, we’ll talk about that later. And, you know, my sister and I. And I think this is my favorite example. We could not be more different when it comes to politics and religion. And my sister and I have just accepted that about us. But we like the same movies. We like that we have the same dark sense of humor. We, of course, love Eva, her daughter. We love to joke and we love to explore. And I love my baby sister. I just love her so much. And I get a little choked up to think that I could let something like politics or religion come between the relationship that I have with my sister. My family, we’ve worked very, very hard to find the things that we agree about, which is largely Emmet Otter’s Jug-Band Christmas, at the holidays.

Lisa: Which I’ve never actually seen.

Gabe: And we just amplify that. We love the food, we love the cookies, we love the decorations, we love my mom going over the top and we love the same movies and we love popcorn. We love making fun of my sister for putting salt on popcorn. It’s basically salt with corn on it rather than corn with salt on it. Debbie, you should get help.

Lisa: Maybe she has some sort of vitamin deficiency.

Gabe: We work very hard to expose those things and amplify them, and it’s worked, it’s worked well. Now, that said, I want to give a small little caveat. My grandmother and I discuss politics all the time. My sister and I discuss other things that we disagree about, one on one all the time. Just you need to do this on the holidays? Like really? Like your whole family’s together for the holidays. And you can’t find one thing that you all agree on to discuss? You have to gravitate right to the stuff that you disagree about? Like what’s wrong with our families? Lisa, what’s wrong with your family?

Lisa: Obviously, everybody tries to avoid politics, religion, etc., and I don’t really know how to explain it, but your family has taken this to another level. It’s amazing. You just cut it off at the pass completely. There’s not the whole, Oh, let’s agree to disagree. No, you don’t even go there. It’s stopped long before. It’s awesome. Like I said, I’m trying to figure out your system so I can get that going in my own household here.

Gabe: One of the things that’s really nice is we’ve seen the benefits, right? There are little things that we do. We don’t leave the news on. You know, so many people turn the news on in their house. And I joke it’s just an old person thing. When the family gets together, news goes off. We don’t even risk it. We don’t want to be sitting there and have some, you know, politician come on and make people start making comments about it.

Lisa: I think your mom even takes away the paper, doesn’t she?

Gabe: Oh, we just get rid of all of it and we all work together, if anybody brings up politics or something like this, just it gets shut down. We work together as a group to make sure that this doesn’t happen. But I really think the magic in our system is we saw the benefits. We used to fight about politics. We used to fight about religion. We used to fight about well, frankly, we used to fight about everything. It was just our way. Now, rather than poking each other for being different in some way, we now really try to bring up the stuff we have in common. You know, my dad loves to hear about the podcasts. He loves to hear about my speaking career. He loves to hear about how I’m utilizing the Internet and social media to reach people. Like that’s very fascinating to him. My dad and I also like technology. We love technology and we gravitate toward those things. But then something like magical happens and stuff that we don’t like that we notice that the other person likes, it becomes fun to hear about. We’ve joked before at my father’s love for Ice Road Truckers. I don’t get it,

Lisa: He really loves Ice Road Truckers.

Gabe: But I have to say, and I’m being very genuine here, if I had a choice between listening to my father describe an episode of Ice Road Truckers scene by scene or arguing with him about some political point that we don’t agree on or a social justice issue that we don’t agree on or religion that we don’t agree on, I’d rather hear about Ice Road Truckers. It gives him so much joy. It’s fun to watch how much he likes this, even though I don’t, I don’t get it for nothing. 

Lisa: Is that show even still on?

Gabe: I have no idea,

Lisa: How many times has he seen each episode? What did you buy him like the box DVD set or something? I mean, what is going on there?

Gabe: I have no earthly idea. But the holidays can be hard to manage because we get so many personalities together and we have such high expectations about it. But I think maybe the magic of my family is that we just gave up expectations. We’re just like, you know, whatever happens is going to happen. And slowly and accidentally, almost, the high-end things started rising to the top. You know, my mother never knew how much we loved Christmas until several years ago.

Lisa: Really?

Gabe: She didn’t know that we got a kick out of it. She did it because she loved it. And then everybody would come over and fight about stuff. Well, when everybody’s coming over to pick on each other, disagree, point out their shortcomings, nobody is actually acknowledging the things that we like about the holidays. Well, since we’re no longer fighting, we had to fill space. You know, suddenly it’s stories about Christmases past, Thanksgivings pasts, and.

Lisa: Gabe’s mother does Christmas hardcore.

Gabe: Oh, you’ve never seen anybody, there is not anything in their house that’s not decorated for Christmas,

Lisa: It’s amazing

Gabe: It’s incredible.

Lisa: She even has the little toilet paper cozies that look like a candle and it’s red and green with the holly berries. It’s amazing.

Gabe: She wraps the pictures and the doors to look like presents,

Lisa: She does.

Gabe: Multiple Christmas trees,

Lisa: I mean, I like Christmas, etc., but

Gabe: Every surface.

Lisa: Yeah, she really goes all in and apparently has done since you were a kid.

Gabe: Oh, ever since we were kids and we just completely took it for granted and never told her, never told her because we just thought she knew. Right. And then when we get together, we’d fight and I.

Lisa: She prepares for Christmas year round,

Gabe: Oh, yeah,

Lisa: It’s amazing.

Gabe: And I want to tone down the word fight. I don’t want people to get this idea that my family and I screamed at each other and threw stuff or, you know, got to fisticuffs or.

Lisa: Oh, no, there’s obviously never any violence or throwing, but there is a lot of screaming.

Gabe: Yeah, there’s a lot of yelling and there’s a lot of debating and there are hurt feelings, even if they’re just subtle hurt feelings and people get up and leave the room and then we’re not together anymore. Once we just started focusing on the other stuff, it really did start rising to the top. And I’d love to tell you how we did it, but it really just started with us just setting ground rules, no religion, no politics. And frankly, we all work together to change the subject when we come to something that we disagree on.

Lisa: I think that’s what does it that you’re all working together to enforce the rules, as it were.

Gabe: It was very important to us at one point to get over this because, well, frankly, people were just stopping to come and I didn’t want to come. I felt that I was always fighting with my family. And I was. I want to be clear, I was, and a lot of these arguments were started by me, like I want to take responsibility here for some of the unrest at Christmas. I have to take responsibility for starting a good many of these disagreements. But the point is, is while we were disagreeing. We weren’t agreeing. So even though we liked my mom’s decorations, we liked my mom’s food, we liked our holiday traditions, we liked Emmet Otter’s Jug-Band Christmas, we liked Fraggle Rock. We liked all the Christmas specials.

Lisa: Her pies are amazing.

Gabe: Her pies are amazing. Nobody spent any time on this because we’re arguing about what? The president, a local politician? I mean, really, I don’t want to give the idea that my family and I don’t openly discuss things like politics, religion or things in the news because we do, but.

Lisa: But not necessarily at Christmas.

Gabe: Yeah. Why does it gotta be on Christmas? And, you know, sometimes it’s is better one on one. You know, I love, love talking politics with my grandma. Now, part of the reason is because my grandma and I agree a lot, not going to lie. But when we disagree, nobody yells and we’re not doing it at Christmas. We need to get to a system like that. You know, maybe the entire family doesn’t have to be in on the discussion that you and your uncle are having about which politician is better. Maybe this is an opportunity for you and your uncle to agree to have coffee after the fact. For me, this is only for me, Lisa. I started to realize that I didn’t really have a good reason to push this. I think I just wanted to fight because I was uncomfortable and the fighting filled the void.

Lisa: I don’t think that’s necessarily fair, though. When someone says something incendiary, why shouldn’t you respond? They got to say it. Why shouldn’t you get to respond? Not to mention there’s a whole silence implies consent thing going on. So the secret really is to not have that initial volley, to have it not be brought up in the first place, because then you don’t have to make this decision about, oh, God, do I just let him keep going? What do I do? That is the secret.

Gabe: That is the secret, that is the secret, you know, sometimes it’s

Lisa: And that’s the hardest part. Getting people to not respond, I think, is a little bit easier, but getting people to not go there in the first place seems to be much more difficult.

Gabe: It’s kind of fascinating to watch my family work when somebody says something, you know, somebody will say something. They’ll be like, oh, I really love a and of course, we’re sitting at a table full of b’s and everybody wants to jump. Right. Like, you can almost see it, but somebody will just change the subject. Oh, I really like a. Hey, anybody see that 1 was on TV last night? And suddenly we’re all talking about 1 and that sort of sends this message to the person who brought up a, hey, dude. Nobody wants that. It’s not perfect. Obviously, the worse it is, the harder it is. I wish that I did not have racists and homophobes in my family sincerely. I really do. And I’m not close with those people. And I never miss an opportunity to pull them aside and tell them that that’s unacceptable. The old Gabe Howard would have done it publicly. The old Gabe Howard would have made a scene right there and I’m not sure that that was the best way to do it.

Lisa: But the old family dynamic would have had that person explaining in detail, but now they don’t even go there, they don’t even start.

Gabe: They don’t even start and if they do start, it’s shut down immediately.

Lisa: Right, so that you don’t have to respond.

Gabe: The old dynamic was to let that person go on for a half an hour. The new dynamic is the person says it, everybody changes the subject in concert together, and that kind of shames that person and that person stops bringing it up. Unfortunately, they still hold the belief.

Lisa: Well, but you only have two choices, either you decide, OK, that’s it, get out, you are no longer welcome here. You are so incredibly over the top that you have to go. Or you find a way to tolerate it. And most people are not willing to kick out a member of the family. And even if you’re willing, there might be other family members that aren’t. Like maybe you’re willing to have one of your cousins or your aunt or just whatever, be exiled forever. But your mom isn’t. Your grandmother isn’t. You know, the cousin’s brother isn’t. So you’re stuck with these people unless you’re willing to cut them off completely. You’re trapped. You’re going to have to figure out a way.

Gabe: As much as I hate to say it, the worst abusers in our family are gone, they’ve passed away and I’m not rooting for anybody to pass away, but

Lisa: There is a generational aspect of it, yes.

Gabe: There really is. And it’s difficult. And I try to put myself in the shoes of why people are tolerating this. You know, your mom did a good job of explaining to you why she was tolerating this behavior. Your mom pointed out that when she was younger, this person was her savior. This person was there for her and that this person helped her and that this person helped craft the woman that your mother became, who she’s very proud of. And obviously the woman that your mother became allowed her to get married and give birth to my best friend. And now we have a podcast and.

Lisa: The world turns.

Gabe: Yeah, your mother didn’t like what this person was saying, but your mother was willing to accept that this person can be two things. This person can be horribly wrong and still her savior, a person who was very relevant to her childhood. Now, we don’t have that same emotional pull to this particular relative. Right. We. 

Lisa: Right.

Gabe: I imagine that’s very difficult. I often think, like, what happens if Lisa goes crazy? Lisa still saved my life, so I’m always going to love you. But what happens if you take some awful position that I just can’t get behind and I have to cut off communication? Am I willing to do it? This is the difficulty in families. Yeah, we don’t like Cousin Bob. You know, Cousin Bob is an asshole and we hate him. But maybe the reason that we’re tolerating Cousin Bob is because of something Cousin Bob’s dad did or because when we needed Cousin Bob to take us to the emergency room when we were sick, Cousin Bob was the only one that was there.

Lisa: People can be two things, they can be horrible and also have this good side, or the reverse.

Gabe: So one of the things that I think I would encourage people to remember when they’re looking at loved ones that are mean to them and they’re wondering why is the family tolerating this person? This person is clearly horrific to me. They well may be horrific to you and you may well be right. But maybe they were kind to somebody that you love. And that’s some common ground right there, right. I don’t think that Gabe Howard and Lisa Kiner’s parents are ever going to be besties, but our common ground is Lisa. Just point blank. Our common ground is Lisa. I am very grateful to them that they decided to get married and have kids. Right. That’s a very powerful thing that they did for me.

Lisa: I’m sure they totally had you in mind the whole time.

Gabe: But they still did it. My life would be incredibly different if not for the decisions that they made, but yeah, we’re never going to agree on politics like. Right. Like Gabe Howard and the Kiner’s are never going to sit down and be like we see things the same way because we don’t. But is that really what we need to spend our time talking about when we have you to discuss? Oh, my God, could you imagine if me and your parents joined forces, how we could fix you?

Lisa: Oh, yeah, maybe I’d finally go to graduate school

Gabe: Maybe

Lisa: Anyway.

Gabe: It’s my fault you didn’t go, you know

Lisa: You’re still not over that, are you. Anyway. Yeah, and he thinks I hold a grudge. I do feel, though, like we’re going to be remiss here about, yeah, everybody has terrible people in their family, but you could usually suck it up for a meal. And you and I are lucky in that way, that we overall have decent families.

Gabe: We do, we do.

Lisa: But there’s certainly plenty of people out there whose families are just completely toxic.

Gabe: So let’s talk about that for a moment. You are right, our families are the same in that they annoy us, but we love them and that we want to go to Christmas. We want to go to Thanksgiving. We want to show up for holidays. What about if you don’t want to? You know, so many people that I talk to, they’re like, look, I just don’t want to go. I’d rather be alone during the holidays than tolerate my family. But the pressure of the holidays is such that I don’t feel that I have that right. Lisa, what are your thoughts on that?

Lisa: It’s not that they don’t feel that they have that right, they feel that they don’t have that choice. I did not have an abusive childhood. Right. So you meet people who had these horribly abusive childhoods and they still have contact with their families. They still have contact with the abuser or their parents. And you think, what is the problem here? Just cut these people off completely. Move and never tell them where you go, just be done. That has always been very hard for me to understand. Why do you still have contact with these people at all? Why are you talking to this person at all? But I guess this is just something I don’t understand. I had a good relationship with my parents. For people who don’t, it’s just much more complicated. And the vast majority, at least that I know, do not end the relationship.

Gabe: But is it OK?

Lisa: Well, apparently, this is human nature. For whatever reason, people, in general, don’t do that.

Gabe: Yeah, I know people in general don’t do it, but that’s not the question that I’m asking you. Think back to the beginning of the show. When I said, hey, listen, in March, April, May, June, we’ll cut off our family no problem. Because we understand that they’re toxic and we will avoid them like the plague. No issue. And like how we thought we avoided the plague before there was an actual plague. And it turns out we don’t avoid it at all. But sincerely, is it OK to skip seeing your family over the holidays?

Lisa: Of course, it’s OK, but it’s not necessarily realistic for many people.

Gabe: Nah, nah, that’s not just stop, stop. It’s realistic to do it in June. So is it realistic to do in December if you make the decision this is not in my mental health’s best interest. This is not what I’m going to do. I’m making the decision for my own self and my own self care. Don’t tell me it’s hard. I know it’s hard. Is it OK? Are you a good person? If you don’t see your family, who is hurting you and your mental health over the holidays? Is it a smart and good choice? And are you still a good person if you do it?

Lisa: Are you actually debating this? Of course. You’re not actually debating this question, are you?

Gabe: I think many people are debating this question.

Lisa: Well, that’s dumb.

Gabe: I think that there are people sitting there right now that believe that in order to be a good, ethical and moral person, they are obligated, obligated, morally and ethically to see their family on the holidays. What say you to that?

Lisa: No, absolutely not, you have absolutely no obligation to people who are harming you to do anything for them,

Gabe: Even if they’re your parents?

Lisa: Especially if they’re your parents. Although I do feel that parents have this unending obligation to their children, even with their adult children. No, you didn’t choose your parents. You have no obligation to these people. You can cut them off in a heartbeat if they’re not doing right by you. Go ahead. But again, you’re asking me if this is morally right or if this is morally acceptable. Of course it is. I don’t think there’s any debate on this, but I don’t think it matters. It’s not necessarily practical.

Gabe: I think that it matters very much because I think there are people that know that there are certain family members that they can’t see because of longstanding abuse, because of trauma. But they feel that in order to be a good person, they have to see them. And, you know, you and I are

Lisa: Well.

Gabe: Lucky. Lisa, you know, our vantage point is of parents who are overbearing or who we disagree with or who we fight with or who frankly just made us feel bad. But our vantage point isn’t abuse. Our parents didn’t traumatically abuse us. There was no physical abuse, sexual abuse. But there are people that we talk to that this is their reality. And all of our advice has just discounted that completely. We’re like, oh, our parents talk about politics and religion and they don’t believe in mental illness over the holidays. What should we do to fix that? OK. That’s a very important discussion and one that I think that we’ve beaten to death. But what about the people who in their childhood, in their adult life have seen trauma and sexual assault and violence from their families or from a member of their family? They’re debating whether or not they should see these individuals and society is pushing them in that direction. Oh, it’s the holidays. Now is the time to forgive and forget. And I think this is sending the message to them that they are unable to say no and they feel that they must spend the holiday with their abuser. And I’m very specifically using abuser, not, you know, a family member that you fight with, but abuser. And that message gets so muddied because even we do it. Oh, call your mom. It’s the holidays. But we never bothered to ask why they don’t want to call their mom. Talk directly to those people for a moment because they don’t feel like they have a choice, because well-intentioned people like us are telling them, oh, just go and agree not to talk about it. But this is a whole other level.

Lisa: Yes, exactly, it is a whole other level, and this advice is not remotely applicable to that level. Many of these folks do not cut off contact with their families. I think this is just a blind spot that I have. I don’t get it. It does not seem like a difficult choice to me. It does not seem like that would be that hard to do. But apparently it is. And I just simply do not understand this. So when you start talking about, oh, is this the moral choice, really? I don’t feel like this is even remotely a debate. I don’t feel like this is something you would need to give a second thought to. The answer is obvious, but again, apparently, that’s because I’m just missing the whole picture here.

Gabe: Do you think it’s fair to say that the majority of the advice that’s floating around in the podcast world and the blogging world and the well-intentioned friends and family, they don’t understand what happened. And most people aren’t asking. They just assume that you’re fighting with your mom because you wanted to have short hair and your mom was hoping that you’d have long hair and now you’re ruining Christmas over it. Do you think that people just have this blatant misunderstanding, that there’s a level of trauma and abuse that is absolutely unforgivable and the moral choice is to cut those people off?

Lisa: Well, I don’t think you should frame it in the question of morality, it is perfectly moral to cut these people off and it’s perfectly moral to not. It’s up to you. The point is that you get to decide. There is just so much social pressure to pick one choice and that is the choice most people pick. I don’t get it. Once again, I feel this is a very straightforward question. It does not require debate. But yeah, if you are an outlier, for example, you had a horribly abusive childhood, which most people do not, almost no advice is for you. All advice is general. All advice, all blogs, all Christmas specials, all sitcoms are designed around this theoretical average. And if you’re not within a few standard deviations of that average, yeah. It just isn’t applicable to you. You’re going to have to just chart your own way.

Gabe: Lisa, I think that that is incredible advice, and I think it’s advice that these shows are almost always lacking as the beginning of our show was. Hey, here’s how to get along with your family and let bygones be bygones. You’re saying that that the general advice of forgive and forget does not apply to all situations. It may not apply to your situation. And if it doesn’t apply to your situation, that’s OK, because you get to decide.

Lisa: Yes, excellent summary, Gabe.

Gabe: You know, I’m not known for summaries,

Lisa: All right, that’s actually one of the funniest things you’ve ever said. Yes, yeah, that’s true. You are not.

Gabe: Lisa, when it comes to families, would you say that they are just complicated? Well, it’s OK to get, you know, advice or a perspective from other people that ultimately the way that we manage our own families is just that. It’s the way that we’re managing our own families.

Lisa: All the Christmas specials, all the movies love it when the family that’s always had trouble getting along comes together, but that is because they don’t get along because they disagree on politics or they’ve always given that guy a hard time about his clothes or something stupid.

Gabe: It’s always simple.

Lisa: Yeah, it’s always simplistic because that’s how pop culture works. It’s not meant for people who have these deeply entrenched problems and trauma, yet we all act like it is. And that’s just so incredibly unfair, as if it wasn’t already bad enough that you have this burden on you. I feel a little bit bad that we might be contributing to that by saying things like, oh, just get along with your family, you can do it. That is just so incredibly simplistic and not good advice for many people.

Gabe: It seems like what you’re saying is that if Hallmark made a movie about certain people’s lives, the happy ending would be that they walked away and never looked back.

Lisa: Yes, absolutely.

Gabe: I know that Hallmark is never going to make that movie, but

Lisa: Yeah, we’re not going to see that one.

Gabe: But if they were making a movie about certain people’s lives, they’d be like, look, you overcame, you broke free, you walked away, you chartered your own course, and you put those people out of your mind and never saw them again. And that would get the light snow fall and the piano music and the fade to black. Rather than what we usually see, which is a family sitting around the table eating Christmas cookies and laughing.

Lisa: Right, right,

Gabe: And that’s OK.

Lisa: That’s 100% OK. Yes.

Gabe: I kind of want to make that movie now.

Lisa: No one is going to fund that movie

Gabe: Yeah.

Lisa: Because it will have to have such a sad start. No one cares about the happy ending if there’s a really sad start.

Gabe: What about Lifetime?

Lisa: Huh, well, never mind. Good point. So the message that we’re trying to have here is life isn’t actually a Hallmark movie and sometimes the cute sitcom ending doesn’t actually happen. And that’s not only OK, but a good thing.

Gabe: Yeah, I think it’s important to understand that well-meaning and well-intentioned people are going to give you all kinds of advice based on things that they did not go through and based on a life that they did not lead. And they are mistakenly believing that their life mirrors yours. And in reality, it is quite possible that the things that you went through with your family are frankly just unforgivable and that you don’t want them and then it’s OK. It’s also quite possible that what you went through does mirror that advice and it does mirror Gabe and Lisa and the DVD player is not a reason to cut off your family. It’s up to you. I guess what I’m really saying, Lisa, is that not enough of these podcasts and articles and YouTube videos actually say this phrase. If you want to forgive your family, here are some ways to do so. And if you don’t want to forgive your family, then don’t. Chart your own course. Both are equally moral, equally ethical and entirely up to you. And the important thing is that it makes you happy and that it’s your choice. Go forward, do what you want and have a happy holiday.

Lisa: Excellent advice, Gabe.

Gabe: Hey, thank you so much and thank all of you for listening. Look, whatever you do for the rest of the year, I hope you make it great. And I also hope that you remember that Mental Illness Is an Asshole is a book I wrote and makes a great holiday gift. You can, of course, get it on Amazon.com, but you can also go to gabehoward.com and buy it there. And I will sign it and I’ll throw in a bunch of show swag, like stickers, and Lisa will package them and mail them.

Lisa: You’re welcome.

Gabe: Wherever you downloaded this podcast, please subscribe, please rate, rank and review, and if you have any ideas for future shows, hit us up at a show@PsychCentral.com.

Lisa: And we’ll see you all back here next Tuesday.

 The post Podcast: Families and Holiday Survival first appeared on World of Psychology.

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Podcast: Reviewing Netflix’s Ratched

Have you seen the Netflix series Ratched? In today’s Not Crazy podcast, we discuss whether the show gives an accurate portrayal of 1940’s mental illness treatments. And to help us out, we welcome Rachel Star Withers, the podcast host of Inside Schizophrenia and a person who lives with schizophrenia, to discuss her views of the show.

Are the lobotomies and hydrotherapy treatments portrayed in the show realistic? Did doctors really do lobotomies on children? Join us as we take a deeper look into this popular miniseries.

(Transcript Available Below)

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And Please Remember to Rate & Review Us!

  Guest Information for ‘Rachel Star Withers- Reviewing Ratched’ Podcast Episode

Rachel Star Withers is an entertainer, speaker, video producer, and schizophrenic. She has appeared on TV shows including MTV’s “Ridiculousness,” “TruTV,” “America’s Got Talent” and is the host of “Insanity with Rachel Star” on Amazon Prime. She grew up seeing monsters, hearing people in the walls, and intense urges to hurt herself.

Rachel creates videos documenting her schizophrenia, ways to manage and let others like her know they are not alone and can still live an amazing life. She has written Lil Broken Star: Understanding Schizophrenia for Kids and a tool for schizophrenics, To See in the Dark: Hallucination and Delusion Journal.

Fun Fact: She has wrestled alligators.

  About The Not Crazy Podcast Hosts

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from Gabe Howard. To learn more, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

        Lisa is the producer of the Psych Central podcast, Not Crazy. She is the recipient of The National Alliance on Mental Illness’s “Above and Beyond” award, has worked extensively with the Ohio Peer Supporter Certification program, and is a workplace suicide prevention trainer. Lisa has battled depression her entire life and has worked alongside Gabe in mental health advocacy for over a decade. She lives in Columbus, Ohio, with her husband; enjoys international travel; and orders 12 pairs of shoes online, picks the best one, and sends the other 11 back.

    Computer Generated Transcript for “Rachel Star Withers- Reviewing Ratched” Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Lisa: You’re listening to Not Crazy, a Psych Central podcast hosted by my ex-husband, who has bipolar disorder. Together, we created the mental health podcast for people who hate mental health podcasts.

Gabe: Welcome, everyone, to the Not Crazy podcast, I’m your host, Gabe Howard, and with me, as always, is Lisa Kiner.

Lisa: Hey, everyone, today’s quote is by Bell Hooks. Movies do not just mirror the culture of any given time, they also create it.

Gabe: I’ve always really liked that quote, but I wonder, did she say anything about Netflix streaming?

Lisa: I think it’s assumed.

Gabe: Is it assumed? I mean are? Do you remember when we were younger that there was a really big demarcation between movies.

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: And television? And you’re right, it has all sort of blurred together. But I suppose for Ms. Hook’s purposes, what she means is the things that we consume in popular media, like in movies, either reflect culture or create culture.

Lisa: Or do both.

Gabe: Ooh. One of the coolest things about hosting multiple podcasts on the Psych Central Network is I get to work with a lot of really cool people. And the other day when I was working with Rachel Star, who is the host of Inside Schizophrenia, a very, very cool podcast, I recommend that you check out. She said to me, Hey, Gabe, have you seen the new Netflix miniseries Ratched? And I said, No, what? What’s that? And she said, it’s the show on Netflix that is a prequel to One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest. And I was like, oh, my God. You mean Nurse Ratched, like the most evil iconic nurse ever from pop culture? And she’s like, yeah, it’s that she goes, I liked it. You should check it out. And I was like, All right, well, that’s weird because we tend to look at her, and that movie is very, very evil and villainous. But from a mental health advocacy standpoint, we just tend to look at it is as like an example of what not to do. But, you know, I found on the back of my mind and we went on and we worked a couple of days later, my dear co-host Lisa, who we all know and love because we’re currently on her show, said, hey, Gabe, have you seen the Netflix miniseries and prequel Ratched? And I said, you know, Rachel was telling me about that. And Lisa was like, I hate it. It’s awful. It’s mental health advocacy back like thousands of years. It’s evil. I can’t believe that they did this. And I was like, OK, those are two very extreme views. So I thought, hmm, what can I do with this information? What can I do with two people with differing opinions? I can put them on a podcast. Rachel, welcome to the show.

Rachel: Hey, what’s up, Gabe and Lisa?

Lisa: Hey, it’s good to have you here.

Gabe: Well, I’m very, very excited about this because I have not seen the miniseries like full disclosure, I have not seen it. I am the moderator and no doubt opinionated observer.

Rachel: Not sure what you’re waiting on, I mean, it came out like a little bit ago.

Lisa: Yeah, plus, you knew this show was coming, so

Rachel: Yes.

Lisa: It’s not like you couldn’t have been prepared.

Gabe: Rachel, you live with schizophrenia, like we should establish a couple of bona fides right now for potential reasons that maybe you saw it through different lenses, you, Rachel, as you live with schizophrenia.

Rachel: I do. It lives in the back.

Gabe: It’s like a roommate that you can’t kick out, no matter how hard you try the eviction courts, they won’t hear the motion.

Rachel: Yeah, she’s cool. It’s all right.

Gabe: It’s fine. You’ve gotten used to her

Rachel: Yeah,

Lisa: She’s hardly ever home.

Rachel: Yeah.

Gabe: So, as I said, Rachel is over on the living with schizophrenia side. And then Lisa, her advocacy has taken just like I mean, it’s like a blob, right? It’s not a straight line at all. Lisa’s done caregiver advocacy. She’s done family member advocacy. She’s saved my life. She lives with depression. She’s done certified peer support in the state of Ohio. So Lisa’s coming at it from, well, frankly, like 800 different directions, which is very different from the specific advocacy and lived experience of Rachel. And the fact that they’re so different is why I thought that this would be an interesting conversation. Just FYI, there’s spoilers, you’ve been warned.

Lisa: We don’t necessarily want you to stop listening to go watch it, but maybe.

Gabe: Rachel, I want to ask you the first question since you brought this topic up. You really are on that you thought it was a reasonable portrayal of mental illness. In what year was this show set in?

Rachel: I think it’s set in the 40s. I don’t think it’s a reasonable portrayal of mental illness. I think it is of the treatments of that time. I think this is the most realistic, like I’ve ever seen portrayed as far as lobotomies. They actually do hydrotherapy in it; which I know I’ve never really seen. I have it in any movies or stuff and how intense certain things are. And they show actually two different types of lobotomies in great detail. Kind of like you’ve never seen them before. I mean, I’ve read about them. I’ve seen diagrams. But the show, which I wouldn’t say can get kind of gory at parts. It’s a pretty realistic thing. What they show drilling into the brain by hand, the icepick like it’s all pretty. And he’s talking his way through it like it’s very impressive from like especially if I was like a psych student. Yeah. Seeing like, oh, wow, that’s OK. That’s exactly what happened there.

Gabe: I have a follow up question to that, but, Lisa, I want your impression, did you think that it was a realistic portrayal of medical treatments in the 1940s?

Lisa: Sadly, probably, yes, it probably is, in fact, a realistic portrayal, but it was set up like it’s not supposed to be, I half thought it was a hallucination for the first couple of episodes. So it was set up as if the characters didn’t think it was realistic. The characters are play-acting, so I just found it confusing.

Gabe: Ok, so confusion aside, I remember when the movie Saving Private Ryan came out in the 90s and people said that this was the most realistic portrayal cinematically of war. You know, they had people getting shot, people talking to their friends and their friends, getting their heads blown off while they were talking to them, just carrying on. And they felt like this did an excellent job of showing the horror show of what it was like to storm the beach at Normandy. And now and I’ve never been in war, so I can’t compare just I’m assuming, Rachel, you’ve never had a lobotomy, so you can’t compare. But I think Rachel and please correct me if I’m wrong, your point was, look, if you got a lobotomy in the 40s and you were standing in the corner of the room, this is what it looked like.

Rachel: Yes, and Ratched is made by the same people who do American Horror Story. So you have to understand, like, yes, you still have some kind of cinematic horror to it. What I liked about Ratched is that there’s no ghost stuff. The scary characters in it are not the people with mental illness. It’s the people like what’s happening, there is no set bad character. You end up kind of seeing the human side of each. One thing I liked is with the lobotomies, the people they did it on, they weren’t just zombies afterwards. One of them like was a kid, which I didn’t realize. I thought there’s no way they would have done a lobotomy on a kid. And then I researched. I was like, oh, wow, no lobotomies were mostly done on women and quite a few children. So that was a pretty normal thing. But yeah, you would be talking afterwards. You could still hold a conversation. Some people some of them did go like brain dead, though, but I’d never seen that. Usually we see, you know, the One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s situation where he’s like dead at the end. 

Gabe: Right, he just like laid there.

Rachel: You never really see someone be OK from it and continue on with life.

Gabe: Lisa, did you get the same impression?

Lisa: Now that you’ve said some of this, Rachel, I guess I am thinking about it a little bit differently. I had trouble looking at it as a realistic portrayal of treatments because I felt like it was such an unrealistic portrayal of the staff and the characters. And like you said, the bad people, the villains are not the patients. Always a nice twist in a movie, by the way. But, yeah, if you look at it isolated as this part of it, has this special realism or even horror. Yeah, OK, never mind. I take back my previous objection and agree with what Rachel is saying now.

Gabe: Just like that,

Lisa: Well, the other thing.

Gabe: Rachel, Rachel, I’ve been trying to do this for 25 years, to have like one succinct argument that Lisa was like, all right, Gabe, I have suddenly been enlightened to your way of thinking. Arguing is over. Let’s have a nice day. What did you do? Rachel is the Lisa whisperer.

Lisa: The one part I did really like was, like you said, where they showed these people as being functional afterwards and some of them were not, but a couple of them were. And also there’s this wide variety of people that they’re doing lobotomies on, ranging

Rachel: Yes.

Lisa: From the people who were clearly very, very ill to people who you’re like, you know.

Rachel: Yeah, one was a lesbian.

Lisa: Well, one was a lesbian.

Rachel: But that’s representative of the time, was they consider that a mental disorder.

Lisa: Yeah, and then, of course, one was pushed entirely by family who didn’t like the way that he was. So there’s also this idea of people with mental illness not being in control of their own lives because they’re so overburdened by their families or the state as a whole.

Rachel: Yeah, none of them the way it portrayed them were like just these crazy people, like attacking, biting,

Lisa: Right.

Rachel: You know, drooling in the corner. All of them were, I don’t say normal, but, yeah, you could easily be like, OK, this person is like a problem or two. But I would never think this is how we’re going to fix it.

Lisa: Yeah, they don’t have a problem so serious, they need brain surgery.

Rachel: Correct, yes, that would never occur to you.

Gabe: It sounds like what you’re both agreeing on is you like that the villains were not the mental patients. Like that’s what we normally get in these things, right? It’s just that the patients are the villains. But then who was the villain?

Rachel: Well,

Lisa: Well, it’s an anti-hero.

Rachel: Yeah, and I’d say like each one had good and bad. The doctor in it, good and bad. And what I appreciated with that, there were some intense scenes with him throughout the season where all he wants to do is help, you know, and you’re just like, OK, well, I just watched you put an ice pick through someone’s eyeball, but that’s what he thought was helping at the time. And some of the other things that they show you’re watching like that obviously could never help anyone. You’re torturing them. But the way he’s talking is I want to make a difference. I want to help. And it’s just that kind of warped view where you kind of feel like, oh, man, you know, this guy feels for these people, but he’s also destroying them. So many of the characters were like that. They would have humanity, but at the same time turn around and do something you just couldn’t believe.

Lisa: He was wrong, but sincere.

Rachel: Yeah, misguided, none of it was hahaha . . . Let’s see what happens when a pop an ice pick through someone’s eyeball.

Lisa: Yeah, he wasn’t just torturing for no reason.

Gabe: But no, no, wait a minute, though, I recognize that I haven’t seen it, I apologize, but didn’t he like sew a dead person’s arms onto a living patient after he cut off the living patient’s arms?

Rachel: You see now, Gabe, you haven’t watched it, so it’s hard for you to make that argument. So the scene your referring to is pretty much he gets poisoned, but it is showing something that they really used to do where they would give patients LSD before therapy sessions. And this is something that I don’t think has ever really been shown in any movies or TV shows, with the exception of documentaries, where they used to give LSD to different people with mental disorders, thinking that would make them, I don’t know, be able to talk better in therapy. 

Gabe: But they cut off the arms.

Rachel: Yes, that’s true.

Lisa: Well, but that’s coming back around.

Rachel: Mm-Hmm.

Lisa: Right?

Rachel: Yes.

Lisa: That’s something people are doing again.

Gabe: Nobody has answered the arms, the arms.

Rachel: I just, well, I don’t want to ruin the show for them, that’s like a huge spoiler. I mean,

Gabe: All right.

Lisa: I found that very disturbing as a scene.

Rachel: It is yes, this is not an easy to show to watch, I would say has lots

Lisa: No.

Rachel: Of trigger warnings. It’s actually

Lisa: Yeah.

Rachel: Been petitioned by Netflix to have some sort of like beginning part because like the first scene of the season is incredibly disturbing and gory.

Lisa: Yeah, it’s very graphic and it was very disturbing. But that was also, I thought, a good part because it’s showing that there’s these horror elements to things that really did happen.

Rachel: Yes, that was one of my favorite things is just pretty much the realistic horror of it. Just watching it is intense and you’re like, but then you realize, oh wow, these were actually procedures done on people, you know, and there is no ghost running around. There is no person trying to, like, attack you from the corners.

Gabe: Did anybody in this show actually have a real mental illness? You talked about the woman who is a lesbian, etc.?

Lisa: Well, but the whole point is that mental illness is culturally constructed. So here are these people that have, for example, lesbianism, which we do not consider to be a mental illness, but was very much treated as one in 1947. That’s part of the appeal of the show, this idea that mental illness is arbitrary and some of these people are just victims of the larger perception of society.

Rachel: Because if you go ahead and you look up the show, it’s going to say serial killer because yes, the very first scene is a serial killer. What I appreciated about the show and this isn’t spoiling anything, is that at one point someone pretends to be a schizophrenic to pretty much say this is why they killed all these people. And the doctor calls them out. And there’s a really great monologue where the doctor calls and just says, OK, you’re exhibiting all these different signs, but to perfectly like you’re playing. And I can tell you’re playing. You’re pretending to say you’re this is why you did all these horrible things. And I really like that in the show. They never actually have any schizophrenia represented throughout, or at least I did notice that they did. But I really love his monologue because I think it’s important because so many people think, oh, gosh, serial killer, they must have been schizophrenic.

Gabe: And it also points out that a doctor can catch it, right? There’s this sort of misconception in society that all you have to do is pretend and the doctor will just be handcuffed and have to give you the diagnosis.

Lisa: First, we think, oh, he’s just evil, he’s just a serial killer, he’s just a bad person, but of course, later on we have more backstory, we have more explanation. And going back to your thing about how the mental patients are not the evil ones or the scary ones or the villains, it turns out all along he wasn’t the evil one or the other. And these are spoilers. And this is just your own problem, you should watch the show. So he’s not evil or the villain. But everyone looks at him as if he must be violent for no reason, because after all, he’s mentally ill. And what other explanation could there possibly be? He couldn’t possibly have a valid reason for this violence or even any reason for this violence. It must just be because he’s crazy. There can’t actually be any backstory to it. 

Rachel: One thing I will throw out that I loved was, not the main character, Nurse Ratched, but there was a separate nurse who’s very much seen as, you know, a villain. But you definitely are on the line of understanding because she follows out the orders exact. If they tell her to do something, she does it. Exactly. And it really comes off as torture. And later on, she makes a comment where someone is refusing to do the treatments and she’s like, well, that’s the difference between being a real nurse. You can’t have compassion if you want to help a person. Sometimes helping them hurts them to get there. And I just thought that was really important. You know, when you think about hospital situations and things that have to happen, things you have to do. And I was like, yeah, that’s a really good point. As a nurse, it’s not my job to question what the doctor says. I mean, no one wants to go through a surgery, and thinking back to those times, she wouldn’t have been trained to do differently. Her job is to do what the doctor says and he’s trying to help them. And so is she.

Gabe: But it really sounds like you’re trying to make Nurse Ratched out to be not evil, she’s evil. She’s

Rachel: No, no

Lisa: No, no.

Rachel: And I don’t think she was evil in the original movie, either.

Gabe: Society agrees that the bitch is evil

Rachel: No, 

Gabe: Really?

Rachel: No, she’s not.

Lisa: She wasn’t evil in the original movie you don’t think?

Rachel: No,

Gabe: She was evil as hell.

Rachel: No, I watched the movie right before the show, not on purpose, I didn’t realize this was coming out. I didn’t realize that’s why Netflix was pushing One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest.

Gabe: She just accidentally watched One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest.

Rachel: I did.

Gabe: You know how you do that. You’re minding your own business, an iconic horror movie comes on.

Lisa: Had you seen it before?

Rachel: Yes, but like so long ago.

Lisa: Because I would think that would be very, very triggering, frankly, I mean, why

Rachel: No, because it

Lisa: We all know One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest is about, you know, why do that to yourself?

Rachel: But it’s because I watch him, and especially if you watch it in today’s terms, you really dislike them. I forget that actor’s name, but you really dislike his character. At one point. I mean, he raped 15-year-old girls

Lisa: Jack Nicholson.

Rachel: Yeah, that’s like a major plot point. One of the reasons the nurse is, like, so protective and there was other things that

Lisa: Oh,

Rachel: He did.

Lisa: Good point that, you know, that gets left out,

Rachel: Yes.

Lisa: Doesn’t it?

Gabe: Yeah,

Lisa: It gets glossed over

Gabe: We see him as a victim.

Lisa: Oh.

Rachel: Right. And they’re saying this woman is doing all these mean things and you’re also watching like, well, no, she has a very specific schedule set out for these people. And he’s trying to actively disrupt these people’s treatment like it’s always about him.

Gabe: Or he’s trying to allow them to live their life in this culturally constructed thing where they’re not, I mean, these men aren’t even allowed to talk about women without

Rachel: No,

Gabe: Getting messed up.

Rachel: I’m going to say he wants them to live his life, it’s what he thinks. He wants to watch the baseball game so everyone has to watch it because that’s what men do. We watch baseball games. We hang out together. We go drinking. Yeah. And you have these people who are there for a lot of serious reasons who probably shouldn’t leave the mental ward for a day to go sailing around the ocean getting wasted.

Gabe: Oh.

Lisa: But in One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, she’s not really a person, you know, she’s the representation of institutional apathy or institutional violence.

Rachel: Yes.

Lisa: She’s not really meant to be a human. She’s just an archetype.

Rachel: And I feel it’s also kind of like following orders You know, nothing she does in it is illegal, is bad. She’s literally just following orders to a T. Everyone in the movie who doesn’t follow orders ends up screwing everything up. There’s like the night watchman who they end up having this huge party with and everything. And you’re like, oh, well, that’s because he let them party. Again, people in severe mental health hospital situations don’t need to be partying, you know, but it’s easy to watch and be like, man, they’re so mean for not letting them have a good time. It’s like, yeah, they’re also really drugged up. And I think watching the show Ratched, I personally thought they were going out of their way to kind of like reshow lobotomies. Because I do know that electroconvulsive therapy, lobotomies were pictured so bad in the movie. And that’s done like a horrible stigma for ECT. There is no ECT in the Netflix show, but it’s all in that same vein. I just really like that they showed the characters with lobotomies a whole lot better. Like you’re not just this drooling blob. It wasn’t just like a torture. Like we’re going to give this person a lobotomy because haha I can’t deal with this attitude.

Lisa: Which is the way that psychiatric

Rachel: Yeah,

Lisa: Treatments are often portrayed in movies

Rachel: Right.

Lisa: It is done specifically as a means of torture. There is no thought that this might

Rachel: Correct,

Lisa: Be beneficial or a treatment.

Rachel: Yes.

Lisa: And you have a good point about if you looked at, oh, we’re going to we’re going to cut into your flesh and reread your organs. Oh, is that a horror movie? No, that’s a hospital, because that’s what medicine does, because, like you said, it has to hurt to help. Well, that’s what these people thought they were doing. Of course, I would argue that that’s kind of like a whole. Oh, I was just following orders thing. I don’t know that absolves you of moral responsibility, but that’s an interesting point.

Rachel: No, I agree, but I also think, you know, then the time, you know, you have someone, the nurses literally I mean, what medical knowledge do they have? You’re still in the dark ages of so much and you have a lot of people who are, hey, let’s see what happens when I do this.

Lisa: Well, and at the end, they even have the nurse saying, hey, here comes all these new treatments. Wow, I just I can’t even believe some

Rachel: Yeah.

Lisa: Of the things we used to do. I just look back on that and think, oh, my goodness. 

Rachel: Yeah, yeah.

Lisa: Like you said, she’s trying to do the best that she can, or that she’s doing the best that she thinks she can. People often talk about One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest as stigmatizing ECT, which many people think has legitimate medical value and is still done today, etc. 

Rachel: I’ve had it.

Lisa: I didn’t know if you wanted to talk about that.

Rachel: Oh, that’s good, because I always stress that because it causes so many issues, so many people are against ECT. And for me, it was a lifesaver.

Lisa: Really?

Rachel: It’s not for everybody, but I wouldn’t be here had I not had it. And it is always on the docket, like I have no problem having it again, although it’s not a first line of defense. But yes, in the original movie, it’s shown pretty much as a torture mechanism. And even the show Stranger Things just I guess maybe two or three seasons ago, it’s a huge plot point where they use it literally as torture and to erase people’s memories, not as, OK, let’s help this person. That we’re trying to help this person with depression. It’s oh, man. We need to, like, just figure out how we can erase brains and, oh, you didn’t want to do this? Well, let’s turn up the electricity. You don’t just like that. I mean, I’m sure it did happen, but that wasn’t the point. To try to just torture people.

Gabe: I mean anything can be used to torture, right?

Rachel: Correct, yeah.

Gabe: I mean, you know, having your leg cut off, if it’s gangrene or has a flesh-eating bacterium, it’s going to ruin the rest of the body that that is, in fact, something that is medically necessary for some people. We’ve seen it in in trauma surgery. But you can also cut off somebody’s leg just to torture that which we’ve seen in many horror movies. I think the difference is society understands the difference between the medically necessary leg removal and the torture leg removal, whereas society doesn’t understand the medically necessary ECT and the torture ECT. They just think that it’s all the same.

Rachel: Mm hmm.

Gabe: So that’s like a society issue, right?

Rachel: Yeah, and I really felt that that was in the same vein, though, with the lobotomies, I’ve never seen them portrayed as, OK, this is really going to help you guys.

Lisa: Well, but ECT

Gabe: Ok.

Lisa: Is still done today and, you know, health people, et cetera, what about lobotomies? Is that something we should bring back or investigate more, or is that something we should just put back in the trash of history?

Rachel: We still do it, although it’s done completely differently and isn’t referred to more as lobotomy, but they still have psycho surgeries, there’s actually a similar surgery that it’s done for epilepsy where they separate some of the lining between the brain and basically a lot of people who have very severe epilepsy that somehow prevent seizures. So we still do these types of things. They’re not as archaic as they used to be. No one’s pulling out an icepick. No one’s getting a hand drill and crunching in there. You know, we have lasers. We had things like that. And you wouldn’t think of them today as being, oh, God, I can’t believe they did that to you. It’s oh, wow. That seems like a really scary surgery. But, you know, you’ll be good.

Lisa: That is a very interesting way to look at it, because, yeah, isn’t all surgery that way.

Rachel: I mean, you think about like getting your eyes laser

Lisa: Yeah.

Rachel: Surgery for your eyeballs. Cutting into your eyeball with lasers like that sounds horrific. Like that blows my brain. How do you do that? And you think if they were pulling out knives, doing it, you might be like, whoa, wait a minute, that’s a little bit more intense, but it’s the same exact thing. I have no clue. But

Gabe: It’s

Rachel: Yeah.

Gabe: Fascinating, though, because when I had laser eye surgery, I told everybody I was like the evil villain that lives in the lair in the mountain, shot me in the eyes with a laser, and I was so strong, I just corrected my own vision and then took them down. So, I think people get the idea of this idea that being shot in the eyes with a laser can be scary. And it was the stuff of James Bond movies and, you know, other movies that had evil people living in island mountain lairs. But they didn’t think the doctors were evil for doing it because they looked a little further. Do you think that one of the things that maybe this show portrays well, is this idea that we need to look a little further at why we’re doing these things rather than just paying attention to the thing that’s being done?

Rachel: Absolutely. Go back to you have to make money off shows, there has to be a reason people watch or then you’re sitting around with the documentary and it’s not as interesting. So, I say, you know, there’s a good and bad when it comes to media portrayals. There’s only so much you can do to get people to watch it and still be like friendly to everybody.

Lisa: Well, it’s the same way that all hospital shows or doctor shows are so dramatic and so over the top and or police or crime dramas, no one actually behaves that way, thank God. But otherwise it’s boring 

Rachel: So much paperwork, you’d be watching them just filling out, you know, oh, God, we ran after that guy. I had to fill out 10 pages here till what I put in. I said I can’t do overtime. So actually, I’m off the case, guys.

Gabe: And of course, when you run after the guy, that that’s all it is, you just you just ran after a guy. There’s no bullets flying. There’s no guns out. There’s just it’s just a boring foot chase that you have to answer a bunch of questions about, fill out a bunch of paperwork and then, you know, Book ‘em, Danno, I guess maybe I guess they did make booking exciting back in the 80s anyway. But you’re right, police work is ultimately boring, but they portray it on television as this very high stakes, life threatening, bullets flying, need military. In reality, it’s just a person walking around.

Lisa: Well, but this is one of the reasons why we have these problems, because we all look at the popular perception of it in media and think, oh, look, police officers are under constant threat. It makes sense that they need a tank.

Gabe: Ok, well, are we looking at people with mental illness as a constant threat, so they need a lobotomy?

Lisa: Maybe. Isn’t that the way they’re always portrayed on TV as violent and scary?

Gabe: That is true, but aren’t they portrayed on Ratched as violent and scary? 

Lisa: No.

Gabe: Are they portrayed as, like, kind? Do you want them to come over for coffee with your kids?

Lisa: Yes,

Rachel: Well, yeah, some you’re watching,

Lisa: Yeah,

Rachel: You’re like, why is this person there?

Lisa: And the answer is because they have no power in society and they’re trapped.

Rachel: Yeah, one is ADHD, and, you know, they’re acting like it’s so crazy that this boy’s, you know, easily distracted. We got to do a lobotomy and you’re just like, well, no, I really think that’s a 

Lisa: Oh, this is so terrible, this is so serious. Yeah.

Rachel: That’s what it seems like, a jump that the 12-year-old has distracted thoughts and he’s not even like crawling up the walls as they’re talking. He’s acting like a 12-year-old.

Lisa: And the point being that he has no power or agency, he’s trapped

Rachel: Mm-Hmm.

Lisa: by his parents and what they decide for him.

Rachel: Yeah, what they decide is uncontrollable.

Lisa: Right. And who gets to define such a thing? 

Gabe: We’ll continue this discussion in a minute and we’ll be right back.

Gabe: We’re back with the host of the podcast Inside Schizophrenia, Rachel Star, discussing the Netflix series Ratched.

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Lisa: I was actually thinking about what you said earlier, about there’s no horror, there’s no supernatural element. But I kept waiting for there to be. 

Rachel: Yeah, they definitely play it up.

Lisa: Right, I’m waiting for there to be ghosts or demons

Rachel: Yeah.

Lisa: Or, oh, is she possessed? What is it? Because isn’t that the way asylums work? I mean, when you’re on TV, all asylums are haunted. That’s what asylums are. Another statement about the popular perception of these things that, oh, obviously, there must be demons involved.

Rachel: Yeah, there has to be some dead patient ghosts that are like hanging out.

Lisa: Right, exactly.

Rachel: I mean, although I got to say, though, that if you watch the show, it is visually stunning.

Lisa: Oh, yeah, that was the best part.

Rachel: Oh, it’s so colorful and stunning, and then you’re like, this hospital is gigantic and there’s like, what, five patients?

Lisa: Yeah.

Rachel: That was my bag. It’s like, how is this place open? I’m very confused. I mean, they’re talking about shutting it down. I’m like, well, clearly you guys need to. Literally five patients.

Lisa: I know. You’re maintaining all of this? How many beds do you have?

Rachel: Yeah.

Lisa: There’s only like four people here.

Rachel: You got like a whole wine cellar that you keep one guy in, like, why do we have a wine cellar in this hospital that apparently stretches for miles? Watching the show visually is just stunning. The way they do all the colors and

Lisa: Yeah,

Rachel: The sets is just incredible.

Lisa: The first couple of episodes, I really thought, wow, I could watch this just for the clothes.

Rachel: Yes, even if they’re covered in blood.

Lisa: Well, yeah, yeah, well, it wasn’t a perfect system, but

Rachel: Yeah.

Lisa: It just yes, the cinematography was amazing. And again, like I said, because I’m expecting some supernatural of into it, I thought, oh, that’s why the colors are so saturated,

Rachel: Yes, and almost like a dreamlike state, like you were saying earlier, you weren’t sure yet? No, it does come off very dreamlike.

Lisa: I was watching this with my husband, and I kept saying to him, I’m telling you, I’m telling you this is going to be a dream. This is a hallucination. This isn’t real. And again, spoiler alert. That is not how it went. And that is a change because, of course, obviously, if you’re having a show about psychiatric patients, it must be because it’s not real.

Rachel: As I said, this is made by the same people who do American Horror Story. They also did Scream Queens, they did Nip/Tuck. I mean, so many different shows that have some very gory parts to them, but especially American Horror Story. And that’s definitely a huge trigger type show. Each season is set differently. And it’s funny because the second season takes place in an insane asylum. And that’s my favorite. And everyone’s always shocked because they would think Rachel seems like that would be the one you definitely don’t like and you would have a problem with. But I really think it’s a great representation minus all the supernatural, because they have a ton of demons and aliens and ghosts and everything you can imagine. But I think it’s a great representation because insane asylums used to be run pretty much by churches. That was who it was. You’re going to be looked over by priests and nuns. So how are they going to treat you?

Gabe: How are they going? I mean, I think that’s an excellent point, how?

Rachel: Yeah, God, so you’re going to have a lot more demon possessions, you’re going to have a lot more starving people things because they didn’t have medications, like how are they supposed to treat you? And they’re very much overrun with people just dropping off every ailment you can imagine. And the family just abandoning them.

Gabe: My wife back talks. Here, fix her. My wife won’t clean, I mean, and these are

Rachel: Yes.

Gabe: These are true stories, right? I mean, just husbands who would get tired of their wives would drop them off. This is excellent because I never thought about the idea that in early mental illness advocacy or intervention, it was largely driven by the church. And we had medical doctors who we assume have some sort of science background with religious leaders who we assume are going completely from, you know, biblical teachings or, you know, prayer, faith, etc. and those two get together. And I guess lobotomy is the only result? Is this portrayed in the show, this idea that religion is driving a lot of this?

Rachel: Not in the new Ratched show I was just referencing yet, that American Horror Story, that that line very much, I think in its 20s or 1910s or something, but it’s even set before that Ratched is in the 40s, I think.

Gabe: So in a way,

Rachel: Ratched, not ratchet.

Gabe: It’s Ratched, yeah,

Rachel: Sorry, I keep saying ratchet. When I first saw the name, I was not expecting this to be the show I

Gabe: Yeah, that word means something different now,

Rachel: Yeah.

Gabe: But it sounds like what you’re saying, based on their body of work, that their thinking has evolved or at least their portrayal has evolved because they used to portray mental illness as supernatural, then they portrayed mental illness as, you know, like Freddy Krueger horror movie. And then they portrayed it from the lens of we have to, you know, pray the mental illness away. And now they’re portraying it from early medical intervention and using science. So if you look at their entire body of work, they’re giving you a history lesson with, like, colorful costumes and probably a cool background soundtrack.

Rachel: So cool.

Lisa: The soundtrack was also very good.

Rachel: Yes.

Gabe: Is that what you’re saying, though, I mean, is that.

Rachel: I think it’s an evolution. I could easily see this being like part two of that American Horror Story season, the kind involving the asylum.

Lisa: I have to watch American Horror Story then.

Rachel: Oh, you’ve never seen it? Oh, my.

Gabe: And the American Horror Story that you’re talking about, is season 2, right?

Rachel: Season 2, yes, each season is a stand-alone story.

Gabe: Also, a series I’ve never watched, however, I did watch Nip/Tuck because I was dating this woman at the time who loved Nip/Tuck and there was no DVR. So when it came on, we had to drop everything and watch this thing. She loved it. Crazy woman. I forget her name.

Lisa: Oh, I loved Nip/Tuck. I don’t remember the name of that actor, but he was so hot.

Gabe: You said that constantly, it was not annoying at all.

Rachel: The blond one or the brown haired one? Aaron Eckhart, I think was the blond, that I liked.

Lisa: No, no, the dark haired one, Christian Troy, he was the hot one.

Rachel: Oh, Christina, yeah.

Gabe: You would say he’s hot.

Rachel: That’s who my mom liked.

Lisa: Yeah, right.

Gabe: And I would say, why are you saying that? And you’re like, Oh, it’s OK, he’s a doctor. And I would say he’s fake. And you’re like, look at that. Look at his shirt is off again. He interviewed the babysitter with no shirt on. Who does this?

Lisa: Well, he would later have an affair with that babysitter.

Gabe: Yeah, he would later have an affair with this.

Lisa: Hmm.

Gabe: I have tried to emulate this behavior. Didn’t work.

Rachel: I mean, if you got it, flaunt it. Why am I wearing like six layers if I if I got this sweet pecs?

Lisa: Exactly, you know how hard he works on those?

Rachel: Yeah.

Lisa: He’s just going to hide those?

Rachel: Yeah,

Lisa: No, I don’t think so. That’s just dumb.

Rachel: It’s like driving a flashy car.

Lisa: Rachel’s so wise.

Gabe: But Nip/Tuck, though, was about plastic surgeons, right, it had it had no mental illness involved at all. Right. Nice trip down memory lane, but not mental illness related.

Rachel: Yes,

Lisa: Another thing I thought was interesting about Ratched was many of the patients were there voluntarily. And we’ve all been trained to think of mental hospitals or asylums or psychiatric hospitals as being these incredibly scary, horrible places. Why would you ever go there voluntarily? They are places to be avoided at all costs, but here are these people who are so desperate that they’ve shown up. So even though they’re scared, they’re very, very sick and desperate to do whatever it takes.

Rachel: And a lot of it was very family oriented, the family is the ones being like, this person needs help. And the person sitting there like I mean, I guess, you know, you kind of like want to question, like, if I was in that position, you know, and my husband is dropping me off there because I talk too much or I’m interested in women and that seems really bizarre. Or I’m dropping my child off because he’s the only kid that won’t sit still in class and everyone’s telling me he’s weird. Where’s the line on things? So, it just makes you think like I feel like a lot of the characters, you could be like, oh, I know someone like that.

Lisa: There are a couple of characters that were clearly just suffering so much and they had such faith.

Rachel: Yes, they were desperate.

Lisa: They were desperate. They tried everything else. They were hopeful that this would be the answer. They tried all these other things. This is going to be the one. This is going to be the thing. Science is going to save us.

Rachel: Yeah, I don’t think there’s any involuntary treatment being like they signed up for everything they did, no one was like, you have to have this lobotomy. They pretty much knew what they were signing up for.

Lisa: Exactly.

Rachel: They might have regretted afterwards, but they definitely went in knowing what was going to happen.

Lisa: We couldn’t exactly call it informed consent because they didn’t understand the consequences necessarily, but they did know the specifics of the procedure and they consented to this because they were desperate. Especially the first two people who got lobotomies, because one of them is clearly supposed to be coded as bipolar and you just felt so much sympathy for them. She’s so desperate, she’ll do whatever it takes.

Rachel: One thing that’s had a lot of blowback is the character Charlotte, that actress was incredible. I thought she like blew away all of her scenes. But the way they show dissociative identity disorder is the big blowback the by. That’s all incorrect. And I got to be honest, I did some research and I could find every reference that they did. I could find there being a basis for it. So, I don’t know. I know that’s a that’s something that’s going through saying that they did that wrong, that her character is just a horrible representation. But that’s I kind of think what’s so interesting is you’re watching it and you’re not really sure. Is she real? What’s happening here? Is she faking? Is she not faking? It’s just very confusing to watch her. 

Lisa: So dissociative identity disorder previously called multiple personality disorder, which I am not a big believer in, but the thing I did like about the character was that she comes to this through trauma.

Rachel: Yes, she very much so wants to be helped. I mean, this isn’t someone who’s like a crazy serial killer running around killing people and, you know, we have to stop her. This was a woman who is clearly sad and upset and she’s like, I’m losing my life. Please help me. Please do whatever you have to do to help me. And regardless of what the disorder is, she’s a powerful character that she wants her life back. She’s not trying to hurt anybody. She just wants

Lisa: Right,

Rachel: To be normal again.

Gabe: So what is the takeaway? I mean, obviously, it’s entertainment. I think we can all understand that the goal of this was entertainment. But is there a silver lining that people watching this will understand the plight of people living with mental illness better? Rachel, what are your thoughts on that?

Rachel: Right after I watched it, because I had never seen portrayals of lobotomies that way, I immediately started Googling lobotomies because I thought the whole scene with them doing it on kids, I’m like, there’s no way that was a thing. There’s no way they did it on someone because they thought they were lesbian. There’s no way they did it because this person was depressed. And it blew my mind what I read and pretty much how common it was that they got up to the point in history where they were doing lobotomies just quickly in the office. It was great. You didn’t have to go to a hospital. The doctor psychiatrist could do it right there. And you’re out. Like they were trying to make that a thing, like a little McDonald’s kind of situation. Just go and get out. You’re good. Nobody has to do anything except, you know, just pop the ice, pick through your idea when could do it. And I just this was things I didn’t realize about history. The other was the hydrotherapy. I, you know, maybe seen a picture or two in a book before, but I’d never actually seen it portrayed. And that was just kind of crazy. And I was like, I have to Google this because there’s no way they would scald people. Oh, no, they did OK. Yeah, no, that was apparently a normal thing. All right. And for all types of ailments, not just mental illness. So, for me, I learned so much that was different than I’m used to seeing it portrayed. More realistic as far as the not the serial killing. But you know what I mean, not the horror type part that of the show.

Gabe: Lisa, what are your thoughts?

Lisa: I would agree that it was portrayed in a more realistic manner, and I also had never seen hydrotherapy represented, but because it is so surreal and with this otherworldly type thing. So I don’t know that the average viewer is going to say to themselves, oh, my, that’s how it really was. I think they might just think it’s part of the fictional concept of the show. So, hey, people. Yeah.

Gabe: It’s all live, right? Your mileage may vary, I guess.

Rachel: Mm hmm.

Lisa: Well, but if you think about it, that’s the creepy part of it, that you’re thinking, oh, no, this is just for TV, but then you get more information. You’re like, oh, not just for TV basis in real life. Oh, ick.

Rachel: Which is one reason I’ve always loved American Horror Story is that every season they base so much stuff off stuff that happened in real life, which was actually horrific things that happened, people that actually existed, but they interweave it, you know, into their stories and stuff. Going back to asylum, one reason that’s my favorite as you watch it and you think there’s no way this is real and there’s a very powerful episode where the reporter sneaks in and does a report about it all, how twisted everything is. And the fact is that really happened, except it was a children’s hospital. And that’s how Geraldo Rivera is so famous. He snuck in a camera. If you ever watch this video, it’s ten times worse than anything that American Horror Story could have even touched on. You know, and it’s just like these places exist. These treatments exist. Real life is scarier sometimes than the ghost, than an alien ship or whatever, 

Gabe: An alien ship?  What are you watching?

Rachel: American Horror Story has done everything. OK, they hit it all.

Gabe: That’s awesome.

Rachel: If it could remotely be scary, you got like, anything they’re going to go after it.

Gabe: Anything goes, it’s covered. Rachel, we love hanging out with you. Tell us for a quick minute before Lisa and I talk behind your back what is Inside Schizophrenia and why do you host it?

Rachel: If you haven’t it checked out Inside Schizophrenia, it’s not as fun as this show, I got to be honest, Gabe.

Gabe: It’s more educational.

Lisa: I’ve actually really enjoyed it.

Rachel: We don’t have as much fun on that show.

Gabe: Way, way to sell it.

Rachel: It’s really boring.

Lisa: That’s making me want to go watch it right now.

Gabe: Tune in, it sucks, I hate hosting it. What’re you doing? It does not have the same feel, it’s an educational show.

Rachel: Yes, it is a more educational show. I do have schizophrenia, so we talk very in depth about that. But we also bring on a lot of experts, doctors, people who specialize in areas. I love doing the show because to me it’s so interesting. And I know someone out there is like edutainment. That’s right. Some

Lisa: Yes.

Rachel: Great entertainment if you want to hear from, like, some really cool different people that you’re would not normally when you Google mental health news. I’d say we’re not like the typical. 

Gabe: And you can find that over on PsychCentral.com/IS or Inside Schizophrenia on your favorite podcast player. Obviously, the obligatory plug for Inside Schizophrenia hosted on the Psych Central Podcast Network, but what does Rachel Star do? Talk about yourself.

Rachel: Well, one thing I really like to talk about is since COVID happened, lots of kids at home, lots of people don’t have access to mental health and kids always weigh heavy on my heart. So at the beginning of all this, I made a comic book line, a mental health comic book line for kids. The first three issues deal with schizophrenia, depression and ADHD, and they are completely free. So they’re free on Apple Books. I think even the adults would like them. And pretty much each one’s a different little kid who becomes a superhero dealing with their mental disorder. So check it out. 

Lisa: Yeah, they’re adorable. They’re free over on Apple books. The first one is called The Adventures of the Fearless Star and the main character is called Lil’ Star.

Rachel: Yes, yes, it’s actually the whole concept is it’s me talking to a younger version of myself, what I wish would have happened as a kid.

Gabe: Very cool. Well, I hope everybody checks that out. Once again, Rachel Star, everyone.

Rachel: Thank you so much for having me.

Lisa: Thank you for being here, Rachel.

Gabe: Ok, Lisa. That did not go exactly how I thought it was going to go, because when we discussed doing this episode, you said, I’m really worried about disagreeing with Rachel and I don’t want to piss her off. Yeah, you pretty much agreed with every single thing she said which honestly surprised even me. Did you have a change of heart?

Lisa: No, not really, I do agree with everything she said, it’s because when you first discussed let’s do this episode, you said Rachel watched Ratched and says that it’s an amazing fictional portrayal of schizophrenia. And I thought, what are you talking about? I don’t think they’re even are any schizophrenics in that. I don’t I don’t understand.

Gabe: I need to defend myself, I believe what I said is that Rachel said that it was an excellent portrayal of the treatments of schizophrenia, which

Lisa: That’s not what you said.

Gabe: I believe that’s what I said.

Lisa: You said it’s an excellent portrayal of schizophrenia and I thought, what is she talking about? I’m going to have to review this. I don’t think there even are any schizophrenics in this. So I don’t know if I didn’t understand what you said or you didn’t understand what she said or it’s like a telephone lost in translation thing. But no, the thing that you said is completely not what we ended up talking about. I maintain that I was right with the original version of what was happening here. But no, not the actual version.

Gabe: I’m glad that you fought so hard to make sure that our listeners knew that you didn’t agree with me.

Lisa: Well, excuse me for taking you at your word and thinking you knew what you were talking about in the planning stages.

Gabe: Lisa, I know we’ve dropped a lot of spoilers here for our listeners, but if any of them are considering watching it, do you recommend them? Like if you were, if you got to be Siskel and Ebert right now, how many stars would you give it? And do you recommend that they tune in for any reason?

Lisa: Probably not. There’s plenty of stuff on Netflix that’s better. It was vaguely entertaining. I liked the clothes, as we’ve already discussed. I liked the clothes, liked the soundtracks, I liked the set. I like that actress, although I don’t think this was one of her better works. But overall, yeah, I just didn’t really like it that much. And it had so many twists. You were like, what? What? And in terms of, oh, I want to watch this so I can have a better understanding of mental illness. Only if you went in already knowing a whole lot about mental illness. 

Gabe: All right, well, I am so glad that I saved 10 hours by just listening to you and Rachel discuss it, and now I can claim knowledge of something that I did not do and all of you can as well. That is the Not Crazy promise.

Lisa: Again, it had some good parts, it wasn’t completely worthless, there are certainly a lot of worse things on Netflix that you could watch, but there’s a lot of way better stuff too. Especially, like you said, to give up that many hours.

Gabe: It’s also important to remember that Lisa is a middle aged woman, so it is certainly possible that if you trend younger, you might just think this thing is bad ass. It could be Lisa’s advanced age that is causing her not to like the show.

Lisa: How do you know it’s not the reverse? Maybe if you trend older, you’re going to love this show, maybe I’m too young for the show. How do you know?

Gabe: Because of Rachel. Rachel liked it and she’s younger.

Lisa: Oh.

Gabe: Thank you, everybody, for listening to this week’s Not Crazy podcast. My name is Gabe Howard and I am the author of Mental Illness Is an Asshole, which you can buy on Amazon. If you head over to gabehoward.com, though, and buy it there, you’ll pay less money. I’ll sign it. And I will include free stickers from the podcast and, well, also from me personally. 

Lisa: Don’t forget the outtake after the credits and we’ll see you all next Tuesday.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Not Crazy Podcast from Psych Central. For free mental health resources and online support groups, visit PsychCentral.com. Not Crazy’s official website is PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy. To work with Gabe, go to gabehoward.com. Want to see Gabe and me in person?  Not Crazy travels well. Have us record an episode live at your next event. E-mail show@psychcentral.com for details. 

 The post Podcast: Reviewing Netflix's Ratched first appeared on World of Psychology.

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Podcast: Value of Personal Mental Illness Stories

Openly sharing our personal mental health stories can help others know they’re not alone, especially when it’s a rarely-discussed or taboo subject. In today’s Not Crazy podcast, our guest Rachel Steinman, a podcaster, writer and mental health advocate, discusses what it’s like to host a podcast where she shares her family’s mental health secrets.

By talking openly about her family’s four suicides, mental illness, substance abuse, family affairs, and more, Rachel is changing the narrative and replacing it with love, compassion, and understanding.

(Transcript Available Below)

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  Guest Information for ‘Rachel Steinman- Value Mental Illness Stories’ Podcast Episode

Rachel Steinman is a Los Angeles native who received her Masters in Education and has taught every elementary school grade, K-6. She’s even been the school librarian, a job she adored. Rachel never set out to become a writer, a podcaster, or a mental health advocate but that is exactly what she proudly calls herself after discovering her beloved grandfather’s unfinished memoir 24 years after he jumped from his high rise. Rachel is sharing her family’s story to rid the shame and stigma that come with family secrets and generations of mental illness. By talking openly about her family’s stories of four suicides, bipolar, depression, substance abuse, family affairs, and more, she’s changing the narrative and replacing it with love, compassion, and understanding. She’s also cutting generational trauma so she doesn’t pass it onto her precious daughters and to inspire others to share their stories openly.

Rachel is a lead presenter for NAMI speaking about ending the silence to discuss mental health warning signs and offer resources and hope to middle and high schoolers as well as their parents. Rachel hosts and produces the Dear Family, Podcast celebrating our complicated families and overcoming obstacles to find mental wellness. She lives in Studio City with her husband of 20 years, two beautiful, bright, and musical teenage daughters, and her adorable rescue puppy. 

  About The Not Crazy Podcast Hosts

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from Gabe Howard. To learn more, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

        Lisa is the producer of the Psych Central podcast, Not Crazy. She is the recipient of The National Alliance on Mental Illness’s “Above and Beyond” award, has worked extensively with the Ohio Peer Supporter Certification program, and is a workplace suicide prevention trainer. Lisa has battled depression her entire life and has worked alongside Gabe in mental health advocacy for over a decade. She lives in Columbus, Ohio, with her husband; enjoys international travel; and orders 12 pairs of shoes online, picks the best one, and sends the other 11 back.

    Computer Generated Transcript for ‘Rachel Steinman- Value Mental Illness Stories’ Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Lisa: You’re listening to Not Crazy, a psych central podcast hosted by my ex-husband, who has bipolar disorder. Together, we created the mental health podcast for people who hate mental health podcasts.

Gabe: Welcome, everyone. You’re listening to the Not Crazy podcast. My name is Gabe Howard and I’m your host. And with me, as always, is Lisa Kiner. Lisa.

Lisa: Hey, everyone, today’s quote comes to us from Ryunosuke Satoro, and he said, individually, we are one drop. Together, we are an ocean.

Gabe: I like quotes like this for so many reasons, but there’s lots of quotes like this, right? You know, just like.

Lisa: It translates nicely into a poster.

Gabe: Yeah, yeah, we do have the kitten doing the hang in there thing.

Lisa: I love that one. That’s my favorite.

Gabe: But isn’t it so overdone?

Lisa: Yeah, but it’s a kitten.

Gabe: But isn’t like the stronger together thing overdone as well.

Lisa: Together, everyone achieves more.

Gabe: Together, everyone does achieve more, and what makes me sad is not the glurge-y nature of the quotes or the simplicity of it or just the ughhhh of it. It’s the fact that we don’t know this. Like, do we really need a poster or a quote to tell us this. Is this not just like basic common sense? Like why don’t we have a quote that says, hey, if you hold your breath, you’ll die? 

Lisa: Good point, I never actually thought about that, why do we have all these quotes and the answer is because, yes, people do actually need it. 

Gabe: We also need a place for kittens hanging off stuff to get work.

Lisa: Good point. Otherwise, what jobs are they really qualified for?

Gabe: They could just be our little cuddlies. I don’t

Lisa: Good idea.

Gabe: I don’t know why.

Lisa: Good idea. Yeah, that’s awesome.

Gabe: I think it’s a good idea. You know, Lisa, we get mail. We get mail, comments just. 

Lisa: And we appreciate all of it.

Gabe: We do. Thank you, everybody. And one of the things that keeps coming up is they ask us why our guests never share personal stories. And in fact, they referenced us saying, hey, we don’t have guests on to share personal stories. We’d rather debate a subject or discuss something or share their point of view. And the question specifically came up, so are you saying that personal stories are bad or are they stupid? Do you not like them? And first, I want to say unequivocally, if I couldn’t share my personal story, I would not have a podcast.

Lisa: Good point, you’re sharing your story constantly, it’s a job description.

Gabe: So there’s this little piece of me that thinks, hey, we made the decision because I don’t want the competition. That is not, in fact why I made the decision. The reality is personal stories are extremely valuable. And I encourage all of you to share. They’re just so well represented in the space. But you know what’s not well represented in the space? The opinions of people living with mental health issues and mental illness. I want to tell people what I want. I don’t want to tell them my story and hope that on the strength of my story, they get it. You should not treat me like shit. Why not? Because I am a person and deserving of respect. Rather than you should not treat me like shit. Why not? Hang on. Let me tell you a story of when somebody treated me like shit and it made me feel bad. We wanted to get into why we developed these opinions and how we want the world to follow us.

Lisa: So, you don’t want people to have to infer what you mean, you want to just tell them.

Gabe: Oh, yeah, that’s a much faster way of saying that.

Lisa: Yeah, well, if it were up to me, it’d be a lot shorter show.

Gabe: So, listen, I decided that we would invite our good friend Rachel Steinman over to discuss the power of storytelling. Rachel is the host of the Dear Family podcast. She’s an awesome mental health advocate and she knows a lot about getting people to share their stories and, of course, the value of that. So, Rachel, welcome to the show.

Lisa: So nice to have you here.

Rachel: Thank you. I’m thrilled to be here.

Gabe: As I just mentioned, you are the host of the Dear Family podcast, can you briefly tell our listeners what that is?

Rachel: Sure, it is a podcast where we celebrate our complicated families. We find mental wellness, and I interview inspirational people who have overcome obstacles and we talk a lot about family members that have mental illness or people that have mental illness and how they’ve overcome it or how they’re dealing with it. And we also talk about family secrets and the importance of just sharing stories and having open dialog to rid stigma and shame and find love and compassion and understanding.

Gabe: And, Rachel, that’s exactly why we wanted to have you on the show. We’re all mental health advocates and in this case we’re all podcasters, which is kind of rare for us. It’s a unique occurrence, right, Lisa? We don’t have a lot of podcasters on our podcast.

Lisa: Yeah. Oh, so meta,

Gabe: I just wanted to set you up to use meta.

Lisa: I know. I have to use that at least once an episode.

Gabe: But, Rachel, we’re all mental health advocates, but we go about it very differently. Lisa and I believe very strongly in people with lived experience, sort of viewing the world and translating it for people who haven’t been there. And you believe very strongly in people sharing their stories and talking about what happened to them. And what I really like about your podcast is you really, really dig deep. It’s not fluff. It’s like you said, it’s no secrets. You dig into the family. There’s just a lot of debate about which one is right. And I kind of think it’s a stupid debate because I think they’re both right. 

Rachel: Well, I definitely appreciate your platform and I can see why it’s so important, but I’m coming at it from a daughter whose mother has bipolar, whose grandparents both died by suicide, whose brother was addicted to crystal meth and ended up homeless. And all these years of shame and no one really talking about mental illness. I wanted to change that narrative. I wanted to openly talk about it because I don’t want to pass this on to my daughters. I don’t want that generational trauma continuing. If we don’t talk about it, then that shame may continue or they may not feel comfortable speaking out. This really all began when I started writing and I wrote an essay called Grandpa and Anthony Bourdain, and it was after Anthony Bourdain took his life by suicide. And I talked about my family and so many people, private messages or publicly came out of the woodwork that I had known from high school and on and said I had no idea that you had that family. You hid it so well, I have something similar, or my mom or my brother or my husband or myself. And I realized literally everyone has a family member dealing with the mental health issue or they themselves are dealing with it. And let’s talk about it. 

Lisa: How specifically do you feel that telling these stories of other folks living with mental illness is helping people who do not live with mental illness?

Rachel: I think it’s hugely helpful. I have heard and I love hearing this and I’m sure you hear this, that it really helps others find compassion for those that are suffering and maybe even find compassion for themselves. And that there’s no shame in asking for help or seeking therapy or talking about it. The more we talk about it, the more others talk about it. Right. Truth begets more truth. And my mom has bipolar. She was not diagnosed until her mid 60s. And for all those years, I was ashamed of my mom. I was embarrassed by her eccentricities and her vulgarity and her swinging moods. And now that I understand that it truly is a mental health disorder and it affects her brain, I have so much more compassion. And it’s made my mom and I so much closer.

Lisa: And then how does your mom feel about that, how does she feel about you telling her story? Is she OK with that?

Rachel: Well, at first, she was not at first, actually, when I started writing essays, because that’s how it began. She was not thrilled about it. She also saw things differently. And I think at one point it pushed her into a manic episode, which did not help. And then I felt guilty and there was definitely some tension because of course, here I am sharing her story publicly. Is it really fair for me to do that? Maybe not, to be honest. But then after my mom started reading them and realizing that there was value in sharing the story, she actually came to me and I’m so grateful. And she gave me her blessing and she said, you’re doing what I wish I could have done. If our story can help one person, then you have my blessing. And I have to say what a beautiful gift. 

Lisa: How long would you say that took between the time when you started and when your mom came around?

Rachel: Not too long, I would say about a year, and I wanted my mom to be my first podcast guest because my podcast’s called Dear Family, and she said absolutely not. I don’t like my voice. I’m not interesting, all of these excuses. But I didn’t push it. And I ended up having my brother, but my mom ended up being my fiftieth episode. And it was so special. She was so open. She’s come so far. So in a way, I think me having this platform made her realize the importance of her voice and the importance of sharing her story.

Gabe: Thank you for being so candid about telling your family’s story, because this is something that I struggle with, not with my family, because they’re OK with it. We apparently just have no scruples whatsoever. But the other people around me, I am surprised that sometimes I’ll see things on Facebook or I’ll get emails from somebody that I knew way back when. And they’ll be like, I heard this on the podcast or I read this in a blog that you wrote and I knew you were talking about me and I don’t like it. Take it down. Now, I don’t mention people’s names. I remove identifying stuff. But even though nobody could possibly figure out it was them from it, they knew it. And that was enough to really make them anxious or fearful or angry. How do you get around that with other folks? Because with your family, hey, you’re a member of your family and you’ve made a decision. But what about like a friend or if you saw your mom interact with somebody else and you’re like, well, this is a story that’s worth telling what my mom did to the store clerk, for example. And I’m just literally making stuff up because while you’re OK telling your mom’s story, are you OK telling the store clerk’s story and does it still have value? Is it just hey, these are paparazzi rules? It happened in public.

Rachel: I want to answer your question, but I have a question first for you. Did you end up taking it down?

Gabe: No,

Rachel: OK, good.

Gabe: No, I never did. No, of course not. And thank you for asking that follow up question. I didn’t take it down because hey one, I made sure that they couldn’t be identified. And plus, this is just life. And three, they did it. But moving all of that aside, where does that end? I mean, how much ret-conning of the past can I possibly do? How much editing and how much revisionist history? I mean, if I can start revising my past, I mean, I’m going to take aim at other things. Yeah, but I did feel bad. I guess that is the part that I want to say. It did make me feel uncomfortable. This idea that I was drudging up unhappiness for this person, I chalked it up to collateral damage. But how reasonable is that?

Rachel: This all began when I was 40 years old, and it was twenty four years after my grandfather had died by suicide. My grandfather was a big real estate mogul in Manhattan and he had to, you know, the outside world, a perfect life. He had kids. He had grandkids. He had money in the bank. He was traveling. He had his physical health to still golf and play tennis. And yet he jumped out of his 14th floor balcony, actually, and died by suicide. I was 16 at the time. Twenty four years later, when I turned 40, his third wife passed away and I was allowed back into this high rise and I found his unfinished manuscript. His father died by suicide. His brother died by suicide and his wife. So that would be my maternal grandmother.

Rachel: My mom’s mom also died by suicide when my mom was just 14 and no one ever talked about it. I found this manuscript and it blew me away, but it was incomplete. There was a lot that was never said, especially, the really important things. There was a lot of business acumen and all of that talked about. But what I was really searching for was missing. It set me on this journey to become his ghostwriter. And I started finishing his story and I realized I had a story to tell. And I am still working on this double memoir that spans five generations. But as I was writing it, I’m digging all this dirt. I’m talking about my family like you cannot believe, right? Talk about opening up a can of worms. I’m talking about my uncles, my mom, my dad, my childhood, my life, things I did that wasn’t right. But if you want to be authentic, you have to tell the truth. And this is my truth. I ended up writing this essay. Well, my family on the East Coast got back to me and were very upset, very angry with me. How dare you talk about Grandpa or my dad that way? They were very, very upset with me. Fortunately, Medium has it’s kind of like an RSS feed. You can change it and it updates. I was able to just say grandpa and get rid of the last name and that appeased them enough. But that was an awful feeling, knowing how upset my family was with me. And yet I totally stand by that essay to this day. I mean, if it’s my truth, it’s my truth.

Lisa: So how does it turn out with your family now, are they still upset about that or have they also come around?

Rachel: So, I’m an open book, so is my mom, some of the other family members are not. I also just recently my cousin was upset about how I mentioned her dad. And yet I know deep in my soul, I can sleep at night because it’s true. And that’s just kind of what I go on. I don’t know if all of them have come around. Maybe it’s selfish of me to say, but I’m OK if they haven’t.

Gabe: How do you feel about the concept of it’s true to you? I think about how I see people and, you know, Lisa and I have this constant struggle and this constant debate about how Lisa sees her parents and how I see her parents. Now, they’re not changing for me, for her. The difference is, is I knew her parents only as an adult. And, you know, obviously they don’t like me very much. I divorced their daughter and there was a lot of turmoil. But in Lisa’s case, they raised her. They birthed her. So when I say, well, you know, your parents are mean and she’s like, no, they’re mean to you. So if I wrote.

Lisa: They’re showing loyalty to me.

Gabe: Right. So if I wrote an article called The True Story about Lisa’s Parents, I wouldn’t have to tell a single lie to make them look bad. But the reality is, is it’s incomplete. Right? I’m only telling the things that they did to me that I don’t like. And I’m therefore and I’m making air quotes, guys, speaking my truth. Do you think that people understand that? Do you think that when people read an article or listen to a podcast by Rachel or by Gabe or by Lisa, they understand that that is that person’s take and that it’s certainly possible, and in fact likely, that somebody else has a completely different take?

Rachel: I love this question so much, because I think that that’s one of the things that writing taught me that helped me in podcasting, is that you have to make the person you’re interviewing a round character. They can’t be flat. That if someone read my article, they would find sympathy for my grandfather. It has to show both angles. So, Gabe, if you’re writing an article about Lisa’s parents, you need to include that part about how great they raised their daughter. And otherwise, it’s not, again, that word authentic. It’s not authentic. So one of the things that writing really helped me do is look at my grandparents, look at my mom, look at my brother, and not just see them as, oh, they just did this and they suck. It helps me look at the past. It helps me see how they were affected. My grandfather, his dad was a narcissist. He learned that from him. His dad died by suicide. So looking at someone as a three dimensional character, finding compassion for them, understanding the history, understanding from where they came is such a better story. Like some of the best storytellers, there’s a villain, and yet you can find sympathy for them.

Gabe: Darth Vader, you’re describing Darth Vader,

Rachel: Right.

Gabe: Right? I just this

Lisa: It was so sad when he died.

Gabe: He terrorized people for three movies, but then

Lisa: Well.

Gabe: We saw him as this flawed character that got, I don’t know,

Lisa: Redemption.

Gabe: Just. Well, I mean, yeah, I guess it’s a redemption arc if we’re using fiction words. I like what you said there, Rachel. You know, the reality is this is an advanced life skill. People can be two things. I was very much angry about the divorce. I was angry that I had caused more problems. And then, you know, here’s this. These other people, they’re coming in and they’re essentially shedding light on their truth, which is that I was a bad husband, so I didn’t like that. Then in reality, you know, I learned that, hey, they can be two things. They can both not be very nice to Gabe, which is, you know, they’re right, I guess. And

Lisa: Loyalty to me.

Gabe: Exactly. And of course, they can be exceptional parents. That gave me my best friend and the woman who saved my life. Well, now what do I do with that? And I think that people struggle with this. And I think this is, to your point, Rachel, why these stories are so important to get out there, not because of our versions of it, but because of the discussions that come up around them. See, right now, when it comes to, you know, bipolar disorder and mental illness, especially in families, it’s never been discussed. I actually think that it is a real bonus that the whole family is emailing you and calling you and telling you that you got it wrong, that you mess this up, that you’re making us look bad, because while that discussion may be aggressive or even angry and hostile, it may well be the first discussion that any member of your family has had about these events in potentially their entire lives. And I think that gets us to a good place.

Rachel: I totally agree. The moment that happened, I thought this might be the first time they’re all discussing this tragic event kind of with open eyes. What you said about the two sides, I actually think sometimes there’s three sides. I think there’s your side, their side and the truth.

Gabe: I like that, I like that.

Rachel: And the other thing that I will point out, I think that is a huge saving grace is forgiveness. By seeing the true picture and being able to step back, you are able to look at your family members’ past and find forgiveness. And that is so healing taking that weight off your shoulders. I was able to forgive my mom first for things that she did because I was able to understand that was her bipolar. My mom was able to forgive me for separating and pushing away from her because that was my coping mechanism. Having these conversations and being able to find that compassion leads to forgiveness. And I think if you can forgive, it’s your gift.

Lisa: We’ll be back in a minute after these messages.

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Lisa: And we’re back discussing the power of personal stories with podcaster Rachel Steinman.

Gabe: Let’s talk about the next step in the evolution of open discussions or let.

Lisa: I have a question. 

Gabe: I haven’t asked mine yet.

Lisa: So do you feel that this has been beneficial to your family?

Rachel: Absolutely by me kind of opening up the can of worms and forcing some discussions, like I said, my mom and I have never been closer. I was ready to kick my mom out of my life. She was just so erratic. And then once I started really digging deep, that helped me find that compassion and that understanding. It was almost like I put on new lenses and saw clearly for the first time. And I’m talking about going back multiple generations to my grandparents and to even their parents who I never knew, and seeing how this generational trauma can get passed down, how if you don’t talk about it, it can fester. So, yes, I’m so glad that I went on this journey. And if nothing else comes of this, which I don’t believe is true, it saved our relationship.

Gabe: I like what you said about seeing things clearly, but I still worry about how clearly change is. And I again, I think about my own life and I have probably the most ridiculous example of this. Are you familiar with the TV show King of the Hill?

Rachel: Yes, I don’t watch it, but I’m familiar with it.

Gabe: Yeah, I loved King of the Hill. I loved that when it was on, I watched every episode when it was brand new. Now, when it was on, I was you know, I was young. I was I think it premiered when I was like 17 years old. And, you know, it ended probably when I was around twenty three, twenty four. And, you know, now with COVID and we can’t do anything, I decided to pop open Hulu and literally watch it from scratch. Now, for those who don’t know, you know, King of the Hill is about this conservative Texas family. This guy, his name is Hank Hill. He sells propane and propane accessories. And he’s this real quiet guy who likes football. And his son, who’s 12, is named Bobby Hill. Now, Bobby is the exact opposite and he talks a mile a minute. He’s a chubby kid. He hates sports. And he’s just a weird, funny little kid. And when I watch it the first time, I very much related to Bobby Hill. Right. He’s just trying to be who he is and make his way in the world and live his best life. I’m 43 years old now and I watch the exact same show again.

Gabe: It didn’t change one iota. And I’m watching it. And I just completely related to Hank Hill. You know, here’s this guy who’s trying to live his best life. He has a kid. He’s got this idea in his head of what being a father is. And he doesn’t know how to connect to his son, who’s the exact opposite as him. And he’s just desperately doing his best. And nothing seems to be working. It’s the exact same show, Rachel. They didn’t change anything. The only thing that changed is I got twenty years older. I think this is why openly discussing our stories and talking about them and keeping them in, whether it’s the public consciousness or the family consciousness, is so important because as Lisa and I have discussed a million times, our parents were dumb as shit when we were kids. And then the minute we turned about 35, we realized they were geniuses, that nothing changed

Lisa: So what you’re saying is then part of the benefit is that you’re able to reinterpret it with new eyes at a later time? I’m not quite sure what you’re saying, Gabe.

Gabe: I think the benefit is that age provides perspective. I could not see things the way that my parents saw things because I was not under the pressures that they were under the reasons that my parents made, the decisions they did when they were raising me is because, well, they had other children to think about. They had a mortgage, they had jobs, they had other responsibilities. Gabe had no understanding of that. I just thought that my dad thought that I was weird and didn’t want to connect with me. And that’s why I liked the Bobby. Well, once I became older and I had my own struggles with managing work and making friends and connecting to the children in my life, I realized that, oh, hey, it’s not that my dad thought that I was a weird little kid that he didn’t like. It’s that my dad just had no idea how to connect with me either. And that’s what I saw in Hank Hill. We often talk about things right when they happen because it’s fresh and the crisis is right there. Can you believe mom did this? Can you believe Gabe said that? Can you believe this bad thing happened? And then we take the whole thing and we ball it up and whatever age and place we were in the world is the only way we ever think about it for the rest of our lives. So, however, Rachel saw her grandfather’s death at 16, becomes how she sees her grandfather’s death for the rest of her life. But by discussing it, by seeing that manuscript, by talking to other family members, you start to realize that there were things that 16 year old Rachel didn’t know. Now, again, I’m speaking a lot for Rachel all of a sudden. What are your thoughts on that?

Rachel: So I interviewed a woman named Dani Shapiro, she is a New York Times best seller and she’s incredible and she’s a memoirist, which it stayed with me. She talked about how when you write about trauma, you can’t write about it right after it happens. The only people that can do that really are poets. You need time and space to look at things. And I definitely agree with that because if I had just thought about my grandfather the way I did when I was 16 and didn’t understand why somebody would take their life, when I thought they had everything, then I would still be stuck in that place of, in a way, feeling like he was selfish. And now, of course, I don’t think of that at all. I understand how somebody could take their life, that there’s so much pain that you wake up every morning, you feel like, what’s the point? And I never could have understood that at that age. Now, again, talking about how we change with age and how there’s that wisdom as we grow older. I remember looking at my parents, too, and thinking like they’re [beep]. Sorry. That they’re idiots. 

Rachel: That they’re idiots because they don’t, they don’t know. And I never want to be anything like them. And now I have teenage daughters and they will say things to me that I just laugh at. Like you don’t know or you’ll never understand or things like that. And I know that in 15, 20 years, they’re going to change the way they look at things. But yes, there is something really amazing about looking at things after having more experience. And I have to say being a parent definitely changes things. I’ve talked about this. I was a kindergarten teacher straight out of college who used to judge parents because they didn’t have time to read to their kids, or they would bribe their kid with candy. And I remember thinking, I will never do that. And then cut to I have my own kids. And so and then I feel guilty for judging them. But I think that, yes, the importance of storytelling is to see different views from different ages, also to talk about it. So, for example, my mom now has a label. We know she’s bipolar. Well, my girls know she’s bipolar. She’ll grow up looking at things differently than she would have had we not been able to talk so openly about it.

Lisa: Ok. Uhm, 

Gabe: Hold up, let me say thank you real quick. 

Gabe: Thank you so much, Rachel, I really appreciate that.

Rachel: Of course.

Lisa: Oh, I didn’t know that’s what you were going to do, OK? I thought you were going to say thank you for being here. I thought, why would you do that when I have a question. But I understand now, never mind.

Gabe: Rachel, I love so much that you don’t have a co-host like that, that’s how you set that up. You got to

Lisa: See how much her life is lacking. Poor thing, I feel so sad for you.

Gabe: No, her life is great. I’m just teasing, Lisa

Rachel: Although, you guys definitely seem to have fun together, and I love that, it’s impressive.

Gabe: I owe her a life debt, like I’m

Lisa: Like Chewbacca,

Gabe: I keep trying to get away from her, but I’m not allowed. I’m

Rachel: She pulls you back in.

Gabe: I mean, that part is kind of true.

Lisa: I try.

Gabe: In a way. We’re joking, right? But as you know, Lisa and I, we are divorced and that is unusual. They’re like, well, if you’re still friends and you like each other, why couldn’t you be married? As if as if

Lisa: We get that a lot.

Gabe: Marriage and friendship is are identical things. But in a way, Lisa knows my whole story with mental illness. That makes her extraordinarily valuable. I think it’s why people want to stay connected to their family so much, because your family knows like your entire childhood, like that’s a lot of bonding. I I’m not trying to say that Lisa and I are only friends because she saved my life. But I think Lisa and I might only be friends because she saved my life. That’s like an incredible thing to connect to people. It’s hard to break. I mean, she also likes Star Wars and that’s pretty bad ass. And we like the same restaurants. That’s

Lisa: No, we don’t,

Gabe: That’s true. We hate it.

Gabe: Us. Trying to pick a restaurant is

Lisa: No, we just go there because you’re too picky,

Gabe: You will only eat at, like these weird restaurants that even Yelp won’t review.

Lisa: All everything you pick is so boring.

Gabe: And yet popular.

Lisa: Any who

Rachel: I love it, I love it.

Lisa: Question for, a question for Rachel, question for the person here. So you’ve talked about the importance of sharing your story publicly on a on a large scale, on a podcast or online or in an article. What about do you feel there’s any value in maybe something on a smaller scale, like sharing with your coworkers or talking to the person standing next to you at McDonald’s?

Rachel: Absolutely, I mean, that’s probably the most powerful right face to face, one on one, that’s like a true connection. And sharing your story by being vulnerable, by opening up yourself, it lets other people take their guards down and open up to you. I say this all the time, but by showing how people can overcome obstacles, like I love highlighting people that have hit real low points whether they were homeless or addicted to crack or whatever it is, and how they were able to ask for help, which feels weak but is actually the strongest, bravest thing you can do and then turn their life around. It’s so inspirational and all you need to hear is one story that can move you into action. So, yes, definitely. I think that’s so powerful that one on one connection.

Gabe: Lisa, I really liked your question and Rachel, I did like your answer. I think that sometimes people believe that things only work on a grand scale. You know, if you can’t have a podcast like Rachel or a podcast like Gabe and Lisa or if you can’t have a huge following in a newspaper or. But that’s like so sad, right? I mean, could you imagine if Lisa would have seen something wrong with Gabe and instead of telling me her story or discussing with me, she would have just let it go and written a blog like that that wouldn’t have found me where I was. I wasn’t searching out this information. So in that way, Lisa is one on one conversation was infinitely more valuable than even the most popular podcast, because I wouldn’t have searched for it. I wouldn’t have read it. I wouldn’t have listened connect it. I thought that was for other people and not for me. And Lisa is one on one conversation with me connected to me where I was. I sincerely think in this age of, you know, how many likes do we have, how many followers, how many hits people forget that one on one conversations have just a tremendous amount of value, especially to the person that you’re having it with. 

Rachel: You talking about the connecting one on one, it just made me think of a story about my husband, who is a entrepreneur, and he’s been in the business world since college and has had some success. And I’m just very proud of him. And someone asked him who his mentor was and who he looked up to. And I would have come up with 10 other people and he mentioned his mom’s friend, this man named Myron, who he’s had multiple conversations with quietly. And it really kind of blew me away that that this one person made these connections and it was those the separate phone calls. And it just goes to show how reaching out and having those conversations one on one is so powerful. And I sometimes get private messages from people. And I have to say, look, I am not a therapist. I just have lived experience, but by me connecting one on one with them privately and making them feel like I do care about them and that they are important and that they can find help has been so impactful for me.

Gabe: My sincere question is it really seems like every single person who has a mental illness or knows somebody with a mental illness immediately thinks that they need to start a podcast, write a memoir or a blog. And I don’t want to stop anybody from following their dreams or putting their information out there. I’m just wondering if some of those people are doing it out of obligation or because they think that’s the only way and are missing out on other ways for them to share. One of the examples that comes to mind is, is somebody hosting a podcast right now that would much rather lead a support group. And instead of leading the support group, they believe that they have to reach more people. And therefore, even though they’d be an incredible support group facilitator, they’re sitting behind a microphone and editing software miserable because after all, they’re reaching more people.

Rachel: There’s probably countless podcasts dealing with mental wellness, I will say the fact that Lady Gaga and it’s every celebrity now is talking about their anxiety or just look at Tic Tok and the teenagers. I mean, it’s almost like

Gabe: It’s very popular,

Rachel: Cool to talk about

Gabe: Yeah.

Rachel: That, what you’re dealing with and struggling with, which, by the way, is fantastic that our kids are talking about it. But does everyone need to be have a podcast? No, probably not. And that was partly why I wanted to make sure that my platform highlighted other people’s stories, because it is important to get stories out there. But, yes, I totally agree with you. I think that there are other platforms that people can share their stories without having to start a podcast. And yeah, absolutely. We do need more support groups and we do need more probably like therapists, especially people of color. We need more cultural sensitivity training. And I would encourage that for sure if you are considering getting in the field and wanting to help.

Lisa: Well, Rachel, thank you so much for being here today, where can our listeners find you

Rachel: So my website is WriteNowRachel.com, that’s write, with a W and I am on all the social media platforms and my podcast is on all the podcasting platforms. Just search Dear Family.

Gabe: It’s an awesome podcast I highly recommend it, and I hope you will check it out on your favorite podcast player or head over to WriteNowRachel.com. And remember it’s write. Like you’re writing.

Rachel: Exactly, and I’m so excited because I’m having Gabe as a guest on my podcast coming up very soon, and we’re going to talk all about him and his family.

Gabe: Yes,

Rachel: Yes.

Gabe: Turnabout is always fair play. Rachel, thank you so much for being here and listeners, stay

Lisa: Yes, thank you.

Gabe: Tuned, because now we’re going to talk behind Rachel’s back.

Rachel: Awesome, I can’t wait to hear it, this later.

Gabe: Of course, again, you can always tune in.

Lisa: Again,

Gabe: In. I don’t. It’s like our favorite joke. You know, we’re going to talk about your behind your back. It’s

Lisa: It’s not our favorite joke.

Gabe: It’s my favorite joke.

Lisa: Why is Rachel interviewing you on the show and not me?

Gabe: Well,

Lisa: Aren’t we a package deal?

Gabe: No, no, no, we’re divorced.

Lisa: Fair.

Gabe: The package deal part of the Gabe and Lisa relationship has long since ended by rule of law. Could you imagine this poor woman? Like she already spent a couple of hours in the studio with us to do this interview, and then we

Lisa: She did.

Gabe: Show up again on her show? For, for real?

Lisa: Ok, there’s a point. She was very patient with us,

Gabe: Do we dislike people 

Lisa: Very good sport,

Gabe: That much?

Lisa: Not her specifically

Gabe: I’m the Star.

Lisa: You are. You’re the Star.

Gabe: Hey, Lisa, we went back and forth a lot when we were designing our show about the personal stories, and I know that I felt a little hypocritical not letting the personal stories on it, because that’s literally my career. I share my story for a living. It’s, that’s my keynote address. It’s literally called This Bipolar Life. And it’s about my life living with bipolar disorder. So I felt a skosh hypocritical. But at the same time, we looked around and there just wasn’t any shows where people were just tackling life or the subject matter through the lens of people living with mental illness. I just want people with mental health issues and mental illness to tell people what they want, advocate for it and fight for it and not be ambiguous. I think that has just as much value as sharing our stories.

Lisa: Of course it does, but why does it have to be one or the other? The whole point is we can have two approaches to this problem.

Gabe: This is the most fascinating thing that we deal with on this show, where people hear that you advocate for one thing and they immediately believe that you are against something else, could you imagine this playing out in the real world? Gabe, what do you want for dinner? Pizza. Oh, you hate spaghetti? You anti-spaghetti? You marching against spaghetti? No, I. I just wanted pizza. I’m not giving any thought to these other things, nor am I trying to push them down or not pay attention to them. And when appropriate, I like spaghetti. I like spaghetti a lot.

Lisa: You just want to make clear that just because this is not something we’re focusing on here; we don’t have anything against it and we support others focusing upon it.

Gabe: Yeah, we also don’t talk about Marvel movies, which I’m obsessed with, but it’s not the space for it.

Lisa: Gabe, your point is that promoting one idea or one approach does not mean that you’re bashing another one.

Gabe: That’s exactly what I’m trying to say. We coulda saved the whole hour. 

Lisa: Yeah,

Gabe: This show could have been 10 minutes.

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: Hey, you’re listening to the Not Crazy podcast. This is Gabe. I’m here with Lisa. Lisa gives a quote. Hey, just because we promote one idea does not mean we’re bashing another. There’s room for multiple pathways to recovery. We need to be open to things. Yay! All right. Hey, everybody, thank you for listening to The Psych Central Podcast. Shit.

Lisa: That would be a very odd show for us to have.

Gabe: Yeah,

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: This is what happens when your host more than one show, but sincerely, sincerely, all I want people to know is that personal stories have incredible value, as Rachael established better than we ever could. The power of getting in touch with your past, of sharing it with like-minded people, of, she didn’t use these exact words, but of finding your tribe, of making amends with family members. Like this is what openly discussing our stories can do. And it was sad, Lisa, when we got the emails where people were saying, oh, so you’re saying that these stories have no advocacy benefit or that these stories are not a good idea, that you don’t encourage people to promote their stories? I was very bummed that people got that message. The reality, Lisa, is we need them both. Remember when I testified in front of the General Assembly and

Lisa: Mm hmm.

Gabe: Here are all these senators, and if I gave them a fact, their eyes glossed over, if I told them about something bad that happened to me because of these laws or lack of resources, then all of a sudden, their eyes widened like, oh, my, how could this happen to a person? And you and I learned very quickly that the marriage of fact and personal story, the personal story grounds it, the fact gives them an entry point of something to fix. So I am fascinated by this idea that the two things would ever be at odds given how intrinsically connected in my mind they are. Facts are valuable, saying what we want is valuable, advocating for ourselves is valuable. But the reason we do it is always connected to, frankly, something bad, traumatic, or awful that happened to us in the past that we want to ensure doesn’t happen to anybody else ever again. And I think that’s worth discussing.

Lisa: Well, the personal is political.

Gabe: Exactly, I just don’t think it’s worth discussing on the show, not in a bad way.

Lisa: [Laughter]

Gabe: Thank you, everybody, for listening to this week’s Not Crazy podcast. Wherever you downloaded the show, please subscribe. Also rate it, rank it, review it use actual letters to form words to tell people why they should listen as well. I am Gabe Howard. I am the author of Mental Illness Is an Asshole and Other Observations. You can, of course, get it on Amazon, but if you go to gabehoward.com right now and buy the book, I will sign it and I will give you a whole bunch of Not Crazy podcast stickers absolutely free. Don’t believe me? Lisa will hold me to it.

Lisa: Lisa will actually be mailing the books, so no worries, there’ll be stickers in there.

Gabe: Stick around for the outtake at the end of the credits, and we’ll see you next Tuesday.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Not Crazy Podcast from Psych Central. For free mental health resources and online support groups, visit PsychCentral.com. Not Crazy’s official website is PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy. To work with Gabe, go to gabehoward.com. Want to see Gabe and me in person?  Not Crazy travels well. Have us record an episode live at your next event. E-mail show@psychcentral.com for details. 

     The post Podcast: Value of Personal Mental Illness Stories first appeared on World of Psychology.

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Podcast: How to Mentally Prepare for Anything

What’s the worst that could happen? And who will you still be regardless of the outcome? In today’s podcast, Gabe talks with author Shira Gura about her newest method CLEAR, a tool we can all use to prepare for an upcoming event or situation that is causing anxiety. 

Worried about an upcoming exam, a date, or a party where you won’t know anyone? Join us to learn a great method to help CLEAR your head before you go.

SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW

  Guest information for ‘Shira Gura- Mentally Prepare’ Podcast Episode

Shira Gura is an emotional well-being coach. Her background as an occupational therapist, yoga instructor, and mindfulness teacher led her to create two powerful self-help tools:  The unSTUCK Method® and The CLEAR Way®. She is the author two books: Getting unSTUCK: Five Simple Steps to Emotional Well-Being (which was awarded winner of the 2017 International Book Award in self-help), and most recently The CLEAR Way: Five Simple Steps to Be Mentally Prepared for Anything. Through her coaching, courses, and community, she guides people to live more deliberately. She lives in Israel with her husband and four children. 

About The Psych Central Podcast Host

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author. To learn more about Gabe, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

Computer Generated Transcript for ‘Shira Gura- Mentally Prepare’ Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: You’re listening to the Psych Central Podcast, where guest experts in the field of psychology and mental health share thought-provoking information using plain, everyday language. Here’s your host, Gabe Howard.

Gabe Howard: Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week’s episode of The Psych Central Podcast, I’m your host Gabe Howard and calling into the show today, we have Shira Gura. Shira’s background is as an occupational therapist, yoga instructor and mindfulness teacher. And it led her to write the book The CLEAR Way: Five Simple Steps to Be Mentally Prepared for Anything. She’s also the host of the Living Deliberately Together podcast. She makes her home in Israel with her husband and four children, Shira, welcome to the show.

Shira Gura: Thank you so much. It is so great to be back. 

Gabe Howard: Well, I am very glad to have you back again now, given all that is going on in the world with COVID-19 being mentally prepared for anything seems more important now than perhaps at any other point, at least in my lifetime. How does your book fit in with everything that’s happening in the world?

Shira Gura: Yeah, I actually think obviously when I was writing the book starting last year, this is before COVID hit and I had no idea that the publication of the book was going to come out at the same time during the hit of this pandemic. And it is a wonderful tool for the time period that we’re in right now, because as we’ll get into in the podcast, it’s a tool that helps prepare you before you go into any future moment. It really helps ground you and helps you be ready. 

Gabe Howard: It sounds like a great, happy accident, and I’m one of these people that I try to stay away from the extremes, you know, black and white thinking has gotten me personally in trouble. It’s interesting to me, because if I would have read the title of your book a year ago, Five Simple Steps to Be Mentally Prepared for Anything, I would’ve been like anything? Really, anything? But as we did the pre work for the show, I was like, look, if it works in a global pandemic, we might be as far along the path to anything as we can possibly get. So I’m so glad that you wrote the book. 

Shira Gura: I am, too.

Gabe Howard: All right, as we mentioned at the top of the show, you’re a returning guest, so I want to spend just a couple of moments on your previous book and your previous episode where we talked about getting unSTUCK: Five Simple Steps to Emotional Well-Being. Just real quick, sort of baseline it for long time listeners to the show that have heard both episodes. What’s the difference between the unSTUCK method and the CLEAR Way method?

Shira Gura: Both tools are really used for emotional well-being, but the unSTUCK method you would really use for something that happened in the past and the past could be a minute ago and it could be 10 years ago. I got stuck on anger. I got stuck on frustration or I was stuck on guilt, are things that already happened. And I’m stuck on them because I have an emotion attached to a story that already happened. I use the unSTUCK method in order to get myself out of the hole, out of that stuck spot. But the CLEAR way is a tool that you use for the future. If you are going into a presentation, if you are anticipating a difficult conversation with someone, if you are about to go to work, if you’re about to work with a client even and you want to just get clear for yourself before you start work, this is where the CLEAR way would be used. They are both powerful self-help tools that are step by step because they’re both based on acronyms, but they are really used for two different purposes.

Gabe Howard: Can you give us some examples of where you would want to get clear in your life?

Shira Gura: If you can think about any situation where you have a feeling of worry or concern or anxiety or fear going into that moment, this would be the tool that you would use. For example, I got clear before we started this interview.

Gabe Howard: Nice.

Shira Gura: I got clear. Yeah. And it’s not that I was having so much anxiety. I do interviews a lot. But again, it’s a future moment that I’m not sure what to expect. I don’t know what’s going to happen. I don’t know if the Internet is going to work. I don’t know if I’m going to stumble on my words. So I need to get clear. 

Gabe Howard: Thank you so much. And when you pitched being on the show, you said, hey, would Gabe be willing to be a guinea pig and give his own problem and be walked through the CLEAR way? And I thought, hey, why not

Shira Gura: We did it on the first episode, and it worked well with getting unSTUCK.

Gabe Howard: We did, and it was a lot of fun and I learned some stuff about myself, and I really think that the listeners understood the example, so we’re going to try it again. So can you walk me through the CLEAR way?

Shira Gura: I would love to do that, the first thing that we need to know is what do you need to get clear about? So you can think of anything. But we need to pinpoint one example in your life where you have feelings of anticipation, of worry, of concern, of fear going into a future moment.

Gabe Howard: I think that’s perfect. I have my first live speech since March coming up in a week. Obviously, I’ve done virtual stuff and continued hosting the podcast, but Gabe Howard in a room with an actual audience whom could throw tomatoes at me, first time in many, many months in a week.

Shira Gura: That’s fantastic, that’s a great example. Let’s do that. OK.

Gabe Howard: Excellent. All right, what’s step one?

Shira Gura: So this is an acronym, five steps, C L E A R, so the first step is C is for calm. It very much relates to the unSTUCK method with the first step, S, was stop. It’s basically the same thing. This is a step where you take a moment to redirect your attention away from the story, away from the future, away from all of the emotions that you’re feeling. And we’re going to bring it to the present moment so that you can allow your mind to rest for a moment. So we’re going to eventually deal with the emotions and kind of go to rational thinking. In order to do that, we really need to get ourselves in a place of calm. And this doesn’t need to be long. It doesn’t need to be a 30-minute meditation. It could be just one deep breath or a few deep breaths, but something even symbolic to say, OK, I’m getting clear. I’m going to start. And the first thing that I’m going to do is get calm. 

Gabe Howard: Yeah, I’m going to take a real big, deep breath. I don’t know if it will come through on the podcast, but I want to assure the listeners that that I’m doing it.

Shira Gura: Ok, and while you’re doing it, if you want, you can close your eyes and you can imagine yourself in the place where you’re going to give the speech, you’re about, let’s say, to walk up the steps to the stage and you’re going to give your speech. And in that moment, you say, I’m getting clear. I’m going to first, I’m going to get calm.

Gabe Howard: All right.

Shira Gura: All right, the next step is L and that’s for Lighten. When you are going into a future moment, when you have all of these emotions, you probably have emotions that are feeling heavy, right? Emotions of fear and worry and anticipation. Those are heavy feelings and they affect us physiologically. So the next step L for Lighten is we uncover what are the thoughts that we have about the situation as we’re going into it? And then we see if we can lighten our thoughts by slightly changing our language. We’ll do this together. See if you can uncover a thought that you have that says something like, I know something is going to happen, some sort of negative thing is going to happen.

Gabe Howard: I know that I’m going to be out of practice, I know that I’m going to stumble over words. I know that the delivery is not going to be as pristine. I mean, it’s been months. There’s just no way that it could be.

Shira Gura: Yeah, great. Perfect, and that’s so important for you to uncover what those thoughts are, because they’re there. They’re there in your mind

Gabe Howard: Yeah, they are.

Shira Gura: And oftentimes we don’t even know or just it’s unconscious. So we’re uncovering them. Now, you’re saying I know I’m going to be out of practice. I know I’m going to stumble. I know my delivery isn’t going to be perfect. And the question is, do we really know that? Do we know what’s going to happen in the future? The truth is, we don’t know. We have no idea what’s going to happen. Right? And so we change our language to it might happen. It’s a possibility that might happen. But we take away like the I know, which is a really heavy thought. And it really kind of creates that reality, like I know it’s going to happen. So that’s what’s going to happen as opposed to I have a feeling that might happen. But you can even hear in my voice, it lightens. It lightens your thought and it affects you again physiologically. Can you try one or two of those changing the language?

Gabe Howard: I’m pretty pessimistic by nature, but I can say that you’re right, saying I know is arrogant, right? I can’t see the future, so I can certainly see for Gabe Howard changing it from I know this is going to happen to I think that it might happen or even I’m concerned that it could happen, which I can hear the difference. I’m worried that something will happen. Is a far cry from I know it’s going to happen. I worry about a lot of things that don’t come true.

Shira Gura: Yes.

Gabe Howard: So you’re right. It does feel significantly lighter.

Shira Gura: But the language that we use in our lives is so important for our emotional and mental health. I think it’s something that people just don’t even think about. But it is really important how we use our language. Let’s go to the next step, which is E and this is for Expect. And so here we’re going to uncover what are your expectations, what are your hopes, what do you wish for? What do you want to happen?

Gabe Howard: I want, like a standing ovation and fireworks and people cheering. Reasonably, I want a good speech, a good presentation, an engaged audience, I want people to laugh at my jokes and, you know, nod at the serious parts. I want engagement, but I want the audience to behave how I expect the audience to behave.

Shira Gura: Awesome. Those are wonderful uncovering of your expectations and it’s so important to uncover your expectations because this is typically what gets us stuck when our expectations aren’t met. You want a standing ovation, you want fireworks, you want cheering. You want a really great speech. You want engagement. That sounds like the most important thing is you want the engagement. You want the nods and the laughter and the

Gabe Howard: Yes.

Shira Gura: Ok, awesome. Right now we’re going to go to the next step. You ready? This one’s kind of tricky. OK. A is for Accept. In this step, we are going to radically accept the opposite of what it is that you want so that if the expectations that you actually want aren’t met, you’re not going to get stuck because you will have accepted in advance the possibility that that was going to happen anyway. In this step we’re not wanting, right? We’re not saying, we’re not wanting the opposite of what we want to have, that’s not what we’re doing. We’re just accepting the possibility that the opposite of what we want may happen because it might. And if it does, and that’s reality, what are you going to do with it besides accept it in that moment?

Gabe Howard: So just to clarify a little bit, you know, in my case, I could accept that the crowd would boo and get up and leave, but I think that that’s too far, too extreme. I don’t really see any, I don’t, I don’t see any scenario where that would realistically happen. Realistically, the worst-case scenario is that the audience is bored. It’s probably important for somebody doing this method to not go so extreme. Like I’m going to accept that the audience throws tomatoes at me. That’s probably not a good use of the method. I’m going to accept that the audience is bored. Would that be better? Is like reigning that in smart?

Shira Gura: Yes, amazing, so I hope that I’m going to have amazing engagement, right, and I can radically accept that I might not have amazing engagement. Right?

Gabe Howard: I’m accepting that there ho-hum. They’re going to be polite. I’m not giving a speech to a hostile crowd, no matter how bad I am, they’ll give the cursory applause at the end. And yeah, I’ve never had tomatoes thrown at me and I’ve never been booed. But I’ve certainly looked out at the audience and seen a lot of people checking their phones and watches and that has happened before. If so, that’s the absolute worst-case scenario and it doesn’t happen very often, but it feels crummy when it does.

Shira Gura: The question is, can you accept that now? Can you accept that that’s a possibility that might happen?

Gabe Howard: I can, I can,

Shira Gura: Ok, great.

Gabe Howard: Yes, I can accept that, that they will think that I am ho hum. And they will politely golf clap as I leave the stage.

Shira Gura: Good, so I can accept the possibility, right?

Gabe Howard: Yes. I can accept the possibility that they may be bored.

Shira Gura: Yeah, it’s just a possibility, right, again, not what we wanted

Gabe Howard: Yes.

Shira Gura: It, but it’s a possibility,

Gabe Howard: Yes.

Shira Gura: You can’t move forward if you’re being held back behind. So it’s really important that you can be able to just accept it as a possibility, which you did. Great 

Gabe Howard: We’ll be right back after we hear from our sponsors.

Gabe Howard: Hey, Psych Central Podcast fans, before we get started, we’d love for you to take a brief three minute listener survey so we can better understand our audience, which is all of you. Go to PsychCentral.com/Survey20 to complete it now. Everyone who completes a survey will automatically be entered into a drawing to win one of two $75 Amazon gift cards. Special thanks to Savvy Co-op for their survey support. And that Web site again is PsychCentral.com/Survey20. Void where prohibited by law. And now, on with the show.

Sponsor Message: Gabe here and I wanted to tell you about Psych Central’s other podcast that I host, Not Crazy. It’s straight talk about the world of mental illness and it is hosted by me and my ex-wife. You should check it out at PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy or your favorite podcast player.

Sponsor Message: This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.com. Secure, convenient, and affordable online counseling. Our counselors are licensed, accredited professionals. Anything you share is confidential. Schedule secure video or phone sessions, plus chat and text with your therapist whenever you feel it’s needed. A month of online therapy often costs less than a single traditional face to face session. Go to BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral and experience seven days of free therapy to see if online counseling is right for you. BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral.

Gabe Howard:  We’re back speaking with Shira Gura, the author of The CLEAR Way: Five Simple Steps to Be Mentally Prepared for Anything.

Shira Gura: Last step, R. This is for responsibility. This is where you take responsibility for your way of being, not your way of doing and not your way of having, but your way of being. Who is it that you want to commit to being in an adjective form? So that no matter what happens, there’s not engagement, they don’t laugh at your jokes, you stumble, no matter what happens, you still stay grounded and committed to your way or ways of being. This is where you take responsibility for yourself and you release responsibility of anything outside of you that you don’t really have control over. There’s endless ways that we can be maybe one or three words. What kind of speaker do you want to commit to being?

Gabe Howard: I want to commit to being a confident, professional, unflappable speaker. I really feel that the best speakers are ones that don’t attack their audience or their clients or. The best speakers also understand that let’s say that there’s 100 people in the audience and it only takes about 40 or 50 percent of an audience to make the audience seem like they’re uninterested. It’s certainly possible that you got through to 20, 30, 40, 50 percent of the audience. I like what you said about taking responsibility because so often I see speakers get angry at their audience. And I think that’s, that’s not the way this works. They don’t owe you anything. You’re there for them. They’re not there for you. So I like the take responsibility. I like that. I want to be a professional, unflappable speaker.

Shira Gura: Good. Awesome. Now, wait a sec.

Gabe Howard: Who projects confidence.

Shira Gura: Awesome, awesome. I want you to know what you just said again. I really believe language is one of the keys to mental health. I want to be a professional, confident, unflappable speaker. That’s the last thing you just said. Right? I want

Gabe Howard: Yes.

Shira Gura: To be and listen to how different it is from I want to be that kind of speaker to I am committed to being that kind of speaker. You hear the difference?

Gabe Howard: I do, I do. I want to be a good husband versus I’m committed to being a good husband. Like, who do you want to be or who do you want to marry? Somebody who wants to do it or somebody who’s committed to doing it?

Shira Gura: Exactly.

Gabe Howard: I think of my own relationships and yeah. Yeah, I don’t want somebody that wants to be in a happy marriage. I want to be with somebody who’s committed to being in a happy marriage.

Shira Gura: Exactly.

Gabe Howard: I think we all understand that in relationships. We’re spreading that out. Right to everything else. I know I’m asking a lot of like questions in between, but yeah, I, you’re right. If my wife came to me and said I want to be happy in our marriage, I think, oh, that doesn’t sound good. But if she said I’m committed to being happy in our marriage, I’d be like, all right, all right, let’s do this. Arm in arm. Let’s go. Nice. I like it.

Shira Gura: It’s a different story, right?

Gabe Howard: It is, it is.

Shira Gura: And it’s like one word, it’s one word, but it changes the world, it really changes the world. So your ways of being are like an anchor to a ship. OK, that is how you are grounding yourself. They are in your ways of being. That’s who you are. So no matter what comes your way, if you’re on a ship and there’s going to be waves and there are going to be waves, right. Things are going to happen. It’s not going to be a smooth run in your marriage or in the talk or in this interview or whatever. Nothing is ever 100 percent smooth. So no matter what happens, your ways of being are your anchor. And so it’s exactly what you’re saying. It’s like I’m committed to doing this. It’s not that I want to be these ways, because if I just want to be these ways, the anchor is going to get unleashed. You know, you’re going to float away. But if you are committed to being these ways, that anchor is going to stay in the ground. So it’s perfect, it’s exactly what you said. And so that’s the last step. And of course, if you want to go more into this work in that last step, what you could do is you could visualize your future self. So what does a confident speaker look like? What does a confident speaker say or act or how does he behave? The next level would be creating your future self ahead of time, seeing yourself ahead of time, being that person and then manifesting it.

Gabe Howard: I like it and I can see how it fits together now. Now, just to recap, CLEAR stands for?

Shira Gura: Calm, Lighten, Expect, Accept, Responsibility.

Gabe Howard: And again, it’s for stuff that’s coming up in the future, so this is what I’d use for my first day of work or my wedding day or even something as simple as my parents coming to visit or my spouse coming home from work. It’s broad appeal.

Shira Gura: It could be anything. I worked with my kid last night, he started a new school and he’s 12. The kids in his school have been together since the age of three. And he’s the new kid on the block. And he tends to be shy and he wants to make friends. And no one is really approaching him. And he wanted to approach kids to ask them if they want to play baseball, because here in Israel, nobody plays baseball. They don’t even know what baseball is. But my kids have baseball mitts and they have a baseball. And he wanted to say, does anyone want to have a catch with me, but he was stuck. Right? He was stuck on fear of rejection. And so I sat with him last night before he went to sleep. I said, let’s get clear. Let’s get clear on who you’re going to be no matter what happens, no matter if they reject you and they say no or they say, yeah, let’s have I’d be happy to have a catch with you. 

Gabe Howard: I like that example a lot, so how can our listeners learn these tools, are they difficult to learn? My question is, is it difficult to learn? My listeners’ question is, is how can they learn?

Shira Gura: Yeah, the tools are not difficult. They are simple, right? That’s one of the reasons I created these tools. I created them actually for myself. And then I of course, I teach them to other people, but they are simple to learn. And it’s not so much are they easy to learn or difficult to learn. It’s more of how can I get practice in using them? It’s one thing to acquire a tool. It’s another thing entirely to say I practiced in it. I know how to get unSTUCK from anything. I know how to get CLEAR from anything. And that doesn’t happen overnight. That happens over time in community with people, working with people. That’s really how this happens. So in terms of where you can learn about it, I have two books.

Gabe Howard: Yeah, where do they find them?

Shira Gura: You can find them on Amazon and you can find them on my website, ShiraGura.com. But what you can also find on my Web site is a course called The Living Deliberately Blueprint. And inside of this course are videos of me walking people through both tools step by step. There are worksheets. There are guided meditations. And in addition to lots of other goodies that are inside of that course, anyone who enrolls is invited into my private Facebook group and free monthly gatherings. So it’s a community, and then it’s, again, the practice.

Gabe Howard: Shira, thank you so much for everything. Thank you for helping me with my speech. Next week, I’ll drop you an email and let you know how it goes.

Shira Gura: I would love to hear and I would encourage you to get clear minutes before or half an hour before whatever. It’s not enough that we did it here. I would encourage you to do it again, like really have it fresh in your mind and really see yourself on that stage before you go up there. And good luck with it.

Gabe Howard: You know, I really like that, and I like that it also becomes something to occupy your mind. As somebody who suffers from anxiety, my mind often ultra focuses on the worst-case scenario. It sounds like by going through the CLEAR method, I can keep my mind occupied on that. Now, again, if you don’t have anxiety or, you know, your mileage may vary, but for me, it gives me something proactive to do to concentrate on. Do you find that in your work? Is that accurate or am I just making stuff up?

Shira Gura: No, absolutely, absolutely. In fact, I’m leading a challenge right now inside of my private Facebook group and every person in the challenge is practicing to being one thing. This is broad range. So one person is practicing to be a non-overeater, one person is practicing to be a nondrinker and one person is practicing to be friendly. I mean, it’s really broad. And what I recommend them to do is every single day wake up and affirm out loud who are you being? Because if we’re practicing to be somebody that we’re not typically being, then we’re going to forget. We’re just going to be our default selves. As you wake up every day, and you said, I’m committing to being a loving wife. I am committing to being a nondrinker. You really set the stage for the day by affirming who you are being every single day when you wake up. It sets you up for the day. And like you said, it gives the mind something to rest on in a positive way so that your mind doesn’t slip back into that default place of negativity, which happens for everyone, because that’s just how the human mind works.

Gabe Howard: Anything that prevents people from slipping into negativity, I think is its own success. Once you start to think poorly about something, you create a self-fulfilling prophecy. At least that’s been my experience. And certainly, being able to distract your mind with something proactive and positive, I have to imagine, creates a powerful end result.

Shira Gura: It totally does, and I’m doing the challenge, by the way, I’m participating and I am committing to being a loving wife. It’s not that I’m like a mean wife or something like that, but I’m probably not like the most loving wife I could be. And I said, you know what? This is what I’m going to work on for 30 days. And I’m constantly finding myself saying this throughout the day. You are committing to being a loving wife, right? Because sometimes it’s not easy. And I just keep saying to myself, in the morning I say it, when my husband comes home from work, I say it, and I just and it’s great. It’s so helpful to have those words in my mind as a reminder, who is it that I want to be?

Gabe Howard: Shira, thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate having you.

Shira Gura: Thank you so much for the interview. It was really great to see you again.

Gabe Howard: You’re very, very welcome. Hey, everybody, my name is Gabe Howard and I am the author of Mental Illness Is an Asshole, which is available on Amazon, or you can get a signed copy with all kinds of cool swag, including stickers from The Psych Central Podcast for less money just by heading over to gabehoward.com. Let me tell you about our super-secret Facebook page you should absolutely check out, just go to PsychCentral.com/FBShow. And remember, you can get one week of free, convenient, affordable, private online counseling any time anywhere simply by visiting BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral. We will see everybody next week.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to The Psych Central Podcast. Want your audience to be wowed at your next event? Feature an appearance and LIVE RECORDING of the Psych Central Podcast right from your stage! For more details, or to book an event, please email us at show@psychcentral.com. Previous episodes can be found at PsychCentral.com/Show or on your favorite podcast player. Psych Central is the internet’s oldest and largest independent mental health website run by mental health professionals. Overseen by Dr. John Grohol, Psych Central offers trusted resources and quizzes to help answer your questions about mental health, personality, psychotherapy, and more. Please visit us today at PsychCentral.com.  To learn more about our host, Gabe Howard, please visit his website at gabehoward.com. Thank you for listening and please share with your friends, family, and followers.

  The post Podcast: How to Mentally Prepare for Anything first appeared on World of Psychology.

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[erraticfairy]

Dear Newly Diagnosed: What We Wish We Knew

In today’s show, Gabe discusses what he could have done differently as a newly diagnosed bipolar patient that may have made his life a little easier. He and Lisa also discuss some common pitfalls a new patient may run into.

For example, what’s the problem when patients are told they need to be med-compliant at all costs? Should you be open at work about your illness? Join us to hear Gabe’s experiences and learn from his rookie mistakes (which actually ended up working out in the end anyway).

(Transcript Available Below)

Please Subscribe to Our Show: And We Love Written Reviews! 

About The Not Crazy podcast Hosts

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from Gabe Howard. To learn more, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

        Lisa is the producer of the Psych Central podcast, Not Crazy. She is the recipient of The National Alliance on Mental Illness’s “Above and Beyond” award, has worked extensively with the Ohio Peer Supporter Certification program, and is a workplace suicide prevention trainer. Lisa has battled depression her entire life and has worked alongside Gabe in mental health advocacy for over a decade. She lives in Columbus, Ohio, with her husband; enjoys international travel; and orders 12 pairs of shoes online, picks the best one, and sends the other 11 back.

    Computer Generated Transcript for “Newly Diagnosed” Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Lisa: You’re listening to Not Crazy, a Psych Central podcast hosted by my ex-husband, who has bipolar disorder. Together, we created the mental health podcast for people who hate mental health podcasts.

Gabe: Hey, all, my name is Gabe Howard and I am the host of the Not Crazy podcast, which you are listening to right now. And as always, I am here with Lisa Kiner.

Lisa: Thank you, Gabe, and today’s quote, the two most powerful warriors are patience and time, and that is from War and Peace by Leo Tolstoy.

Gabe: What happened to the pregnant quote? I kind of dug that one better.

Lisa: Really? That was just for you, I didn’t mean that one for the show.

Gabe: Well, what was it? I really do think that it illustrated an excellent point.

Lisa: Ok, so Warren Buffett said no matter how great the talent or efforts, some things just take time. You can’t produce a baby in one month by getting nine women pregnant.

Gabe: I like that one because I do think that it is a good analogy, and I, I get it, Leo Tolstoy versus Warren Buffett. I’d like to point out that they’re both old white men, so.

Lisa: But it’s a slightly different feel, one you’ve got patience and time, not just time, and also it’s about the warring aspect of it and this is your strongest tool in the fight.

Gabe: I think the point, though, is, is no matter how hard you try, how efficient you are, how much you want it, how hard you work, baby takes nine months.

Lisa: No amount of extra effort gets it to be less than nine months.

Gabe: Right, and in terms of mental illness recovery, no matter how hard you want it or how hard your family and friends want it for you, it takes as long as it takes. And I think this is often missed when people are diagnosed with severe and persistent mental illness. Which leads us to our show topic. 

Lisa: Yes, the topic today being things I wish I had known when I was diagnosed, the chief among them being just the sheer amount of time everything would take.

Gabe: Wasn’t that like a shocker to you?

Lisa: Yes, very much so.

Gabe: It was a huge shock to me. I sincerely believed that I was going to leave the psychiatric hospital one hundred percent in recovery and perfectly well, I had no idea it was going to take four years.

Lisa: Well, certainly, I didn’t think it was going to take four years, but really, you honestly thought it was going to take zero?

Gabe: Of course.

Lisa: Like the next day would be done?

Gabe: Well, yeah. Consider this, every other time I had ever had a medical problem, I went to the doctor, they diagnosed me, they gave me the treatment, and within a few weeks, I was fine.

Lisa: But that just goes to show how good your health had been up until that point.

Gabe: Yeah, you asked me things that I wish I knew when I was diagnosed, that’s one of the major things that I wished I knew when I was diagnosed. And I got to tell you, the average age of diagnosis of a severe and persistent mental illness is 16 to 24. For the average group of people to have excellent physical health are people who are the ages of 16 to 24. That’s why they’re all the athletes, Lisa. It’s no surprise that all the athletes are young. It’s not

Lisa: Well, but I’m just 

Gabe: A bunch of old people

Lisa: I’m just, I’m trying,

Gabe: Except now Mike is fighting and he’s like really old.

Lisa: I’m trying to show

Gabe: You know what I mean?

Lisa: You

Gabe: Like like like old people

Lisa: You are such an ass

Gabe: Are getting out there more, but still the best are the young people.

Lisa: What I’m trying to say is that this isn’t unique to mental illness. This is true with all illnesses because we all watch too many medical dramas on TV. We all just expect that as soon as someone leaves the hospital, it’s over, it’s done. They don’t need long term care. Their problems are completely resolved. I had surgery yesterday, but today I’m ready to go back to normal life. In real life, healing just takes a really long time and that is not represented in media.

Gabe: You’re right, young people, we believe that we’re invincible. I thought I was invincible. I thought that any problem that befell me could be resolved with, you know, drops or pills or, you know, an outpatient stay. 

Lisa: Well, because you only had acute problems, you never had a chronic problem, that was one going to take long term management or even that just takes a long time.

Gabe: Right,

Lisa: The kind of things that you’re

Gabe: Yes.

Lisa: Talking about are things like a sprain or needing stitches

Gabe: Right.

Lisa: Or something like that.

Gabe: Yeah, that was my only understanding of medicine, but let’s move that back for just a little slight, tiny moment, even though that was my experience, you recognize that if I would have gone to the hospital for three days and had been diagnosed with breaking both of my legs, I would have recognized that that was long term. So when you say, well, everybody thinks this. Yeah, everybody thinks this about things that they understand. I didn’t understand mental illness. I didn’t understand it was going to take this long. Nobody taught me anything about it. Or perhaps, just perhaps, I would have been diagnosed before the age of 25, considering I had symptoms of this insidious disease at 15. 

Lisa: Well, and as we all heard of the last episode, though, it wouldn’t have been appropriate to diagnose you at 15.

Gabe: It would have been at 20.

Lisa: Yeah, it would have been. Yeah, you were definitely symptomatic by then. Yeah. Like I said, I didn’t recognize my own mental illness until I was in my 20s. And that was a long, long time of symptoms.

Gabe: I like the point that you’re making, Lisa, where you say, look, one of the reasons that that we have such a hard time understanding and managing mental illness is because we’re young and we just we just don’t understand the process of our bodies and minds failing us. But I don’t like what you’re implying that, yeah, we’re stupid about everything and mental illness is just exactly the same. I do think there’s another level.

Lisa: I do think there’s another level.

Gabe: I did, in fact, have symptoms that nobody recognized. I do believe that my family would have recognized symptoms of other illnesses. The example that I always use is my mother took me to a dermatologist from the time that I was very young because she understood that her red head, translucent son burnt easy and had a lot of skin problems. Well, how did she learn that? My mom was not a doctor. Enough people came up and told her and said, hey, your son is a redhead and very fair skinned. You’re going to want to put a lot of sunblock on him and get him a dermatologist, like on call. Why did nobody teach them this about mental health just as a precautionary measure?

Lisa: Well, but there’s got to be somewhere in the middle. The number one thing, when people tell me that they have a new diagnosis or a friend or family member has a new diagnosis, that I want to impress upon them is the amount of time this is going to take. And I had absolutely no concept of that. And I think things would have been a lot better, a lot different if I had, although I’m not sure I would have listened. If one of your doctors had sat us down and said, look, this is going to take four years. I don’t think we would have believed it. We would have thought that, oh, no, that’s ridiculous. We can knock this out in six months, tops.

Gabe: Yeah, I mean, it’s going to take nine months to have a baby, but that’s ridiculous, we can knock this out in three months, tops.

Lisa: All right, good point.

Gabe: The reason that we know how stupid that sounds is because we openly talk about pregnancy. We’ve met people who were pregnant. We’ve seen people who were pregnant. We’re willing to discuss and learn about pregnancy and not for nothing. I recognize that nothing in pop culture is displayed accurately, but pregnancy is displayed fairly accurately. Never once have I seen a show where they said, oh, I will only be pregnant for one month and I won’t gain any weight and I’ll have a baby. No, they always show the baby bump. They always imply that it’s been nine months. The baby ages fast. ou know, the woman has way too much energy in most cases. I

Lisa: Never gains any weight.

Gabe: No, no, she does gain weight, but it’s that perfect little baby bump.

Lisa: Yeah, her face is exactly the same.

Gabe: Face exactly the same, arms exactly the same, and of course, she’s still walking around in high heels like it’s not a problem, I recognize that it’s not a perfect analogy, but never once have I watched a show where they said, hey, this woman is pregnant on Monday. She’s going to work really, really hard and be really, really efficient and give birth on Friday because everybody’d turn it off and call that stupid. Just go back to my personal experience and the personal experience of a lot of people. They don’t realize how long it takes. And that leads me into my next thing that I genuinely and honestly wish that I knew on the day that I was diagnosed. I wish I knew that the term be med compliant was bullshit.

Lisa: Well, I don’t know that you can say that it’s bullshit, but I would say that I wish I had known that medication wasn’t the end of the story.

Gabe: The reason that be med compliant is bullshit is because it’s not complete. First off, being med compliant doesn’t do anything. For example, let’s say that all you had to be was med compliant. Well, then every psychiatrist should just prescribe every single mental health patient, M&M’s, and say, listen, wake up and eat a bag of M&M’s and go to bed and eat a bag of M&M’s. And as long as that person does that, they will in fact, be med compliant. But we all know that that’s not going to help them with their mental illness. That’s complete nonsense. I don’t understand why the term isn’t being med compliant on the correct medications. I feel that it’s be med compliant only because that puts all of the pressure and responsibility on the patient while giving none of the pressure or responsibility to the doctor. The minute you add be med compliant on the correct medication, well, now you’ve got a combo deal. Now the doctor has to be right and the patient has to be right. I think that it is this little insidious thing that puts all of the pressure on the patient, because after all, if it’s not working, it’s because you weren’t med compliant. It’s not because the medicines didn’t work or were wrong or you were prescribed incorrectly or diagnosed wrong. No, no, no, no, no. It’s you weren’t med compliant. That’s why I hate that so much. And that’s why I say it’s bullshit.

Lisa: That is a good point, I did not have a good understanding of how long it would take to find the right medication.

Gabe: I remember, Lisa, when I was first diagnosed, you did a really good job of saying to me, listen, people with bipolar disorder, they have this habit. You understood this very well because, well, you had done it. You had done it with depression. You told me that under no circumstances was I to stop taking my medication, that I must be 100 percent med compliant. I needed to be perfect, you said. And that as long as I took my medicines as prescribed, you would stick with me, you would help me. I am so thankful that you gave me this message because I do believe it was a good one. But I would like to point out that even though I was perfect on my medication, it took four years.

Lisa: Yeah, you were always perfect.

Gabe: And this was a big shock to my system, because all I could think was, is I’m doing what I’m told, I’m listening. This hurt me a lot because I started to believe things like, oh, I must have treatment resistant bipolar. I must have such a severe case that it can’t be cured. And you’re thinking, why did you believe that, Gabe? Well, I did everything the doctors told me to do. I did everything that Lisa told me to do. I was obeying all the rules and I wasn’t getting better. And since I did not have any understanding that it could possibly be the doctor or the treatments’ fault, that only left me, it must be my fault. I must be bad. I must be wrong. That’s a lot to deal with on top of, of course, managing a chronic illness.

Lisa: So what are you saying you wish you had known?

Gabe: I wish that I would have had a better understanding that this needs to be a relationship between me and my doctor and that we need to work together to find the right treatment for me. I did not understand that. I thought that this was 100 percent on Gabe and that any failure was only my fault.

Lisa: I do have to give you a lot of credit for that, you were in fact, 100 percent perfect. You were always compliant, unlike almost every other person diagnosed with bipolar disorder we’ve ever met. That’s just a common thing. Lots of people go on and off their meds. And you never did to the point where every once in a while, a doctor would doubt that you were actually taking it. They would say things like, well, are you sure you’re taking it? Well, but are you taking it every day? Are you taking all the pills? So it’s yeah, even doctors have this very condescending attitude sometimes about, well, it can’t possibly be the treatment. It must be you. 

Gabe: I know we’re going to talk about stigma later in the show, but this is one of those like hidden forms of stigma, right? It’s like systemic stigma.

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: I feel like there’s only two choices for people with mental illness. Either we are unwell and therefore failing, or we got our shit together.

Lisa: Right, there’s no in between.

Gabe: It’s always our fault. If the treatment works, oh, thank God for the treatment. Yeah, yeah, it worked. If the treatment fails, you must not be taking your meds. You’re not be going to therapy. You’re not using your coping skills. You don’t want it bad enough. You need to try harder. There’s not really a space for you beat it. You’re a survivor. You’re amazing. The two choices are you are sick or you got your shit together and you’re normal.

Lisa: Yes, there is. There’s totally a space for that cheerleading, you did it, it’s over, you did it. Yay! What there’s not space for is the in-between time of treatment. And cancer doesn’t have this problem with cancer being our favorite disease analogy. You either don’t have cancer and you’re fine or alternatively, you’ve recovered from cancer, you’re in remission, but you can also be undergoing treatment. You can be in treatment. You can be getting chemotherapy right now. You can be getting radiation right now. We don’t have that. Either you don’t have mental illness or you’re successfully treated. You’re in recovery. Well, what about that in-between time where OK, I’ve been diagnosed, but I haven’t really found what’s working for me yet so that I can be in recovery and have that life that I’m looking for. What about that period? There’s no in treatment, not all the way there yet, period.

Gabe: It just really seems like there’s only two levels for people with severe and persistent mental illness, either sick or well. And when we’re well, the credit is not given to us for being well.

Lisa: You’re right. I think we’re making two separate but intertwined points where you’re saying that there’s no victory at the end

Gabe: Exactly, that is what I am saying.

Lisa: And I’m saying there’s only the two steady states.

Gabe: There are only two options and you’re either well, in which case everybody gets the credit but you, it seems. You know, your mom worked so hard for you. The doctors got all the right medicines. Research is so great or you’re sick and then it’s your fault for not wanting to be better. It reminds me of all my photographer friends. If they take a bad picture, it’s because they suck as a photographer. But if they take a good picture, it’s because they have an amazing camera. Oh,

Lisa: Yeah,

Gabe: You must have an amazing camera

Lisa: Yeah, and that’s why no one’s willing to pay the money that it takes for good photography.

Gabe: Exactly. I think that’s very difficult because I want my moment in the sun, I feel that this, just I thought I would get it. I sincerely believed

Lisa: You did?

Gabe: That if I. Yeah, I thought that if I worked hard that I would be praised for beating bipolar disorder, for achieving recovery, that people would be like, that is amazing. Wow. You know, most people his age don’t have to deal with that. And Gabe did it.

Lisa: Wow.

Gabe: But when I got there, everybody’s like, what? You’re finally behaving, buddy.

Lisa: This actually makes a lot more sense on some of your behavior during that time, leading us to another thing you wish you had known when you were diagnosed, the role that stigma was going to play.

Gabe: But you know what? I can’t count this as one of the things that I wish I knew because I did know because you told me. You told me a hundred percent about

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: All of the stigma, the discrimination. And you pleaded with me to change my behavior. And I

Lisa: Yep,

Gabe: Thought you were wrong. So,

Lisa: Yep.

Gabe: Yeah, things I wish I knew now. This would go under the show, advice I wished I would have taken.

Lisa: So the thing that you wish you knew was that Lisa was right.

Gabe: Yeah, I just.

Lisa: Which maintains a lesson you could use today.

Gabe: You specifically described it about the stigma that I would experience at work, and you said to me, look, Gabe, if you tell people that you have bipolar disorder, that you have mental illness, they will treat you differently, they will behave erratically and it will hurt you and your career. I had known these people. I had worked at this place for, what, four years? I did not believe that based on an illness, coworkers who held me in high esteem and who I held in high esteem would immediately turn on me. But I got a death threat, I.

Lisa: You wouldn’t shut up about it as soon as you were diagnosed, you put it on the Internet,

Gabe: I did.

Lisa: Because you were off for a couple of weeks after being the hospital. OK, where were you? Oh, well, I was at the mental hospital and now I’m back. And I had pleaded with you not to do that because, yeah, I knew that was going to turn out badly. I knew it was. I knew this would hurt you at work. And we desperately needed you to continue working. But to be fair, I did not anticipate how bad it would get and how deep the stigma in our society really ran.

Gabe: I want to defend my reason for not listening to you. It’s just.

Lisa: There’s never a reason for not listening to me.

Gabe: I can think of many. It’s you told me that people that I respected were going to turn on me. Why would anybody believe this? I just obviously I want to be right. I want to be clear. I love winning arguments with Lisa. In fact, that’s pretty much my only hobby in the new COVID world, but.

Lisa: That’s too bad you suck at it.

Gabe: I mean, I think I’m holding my own,

Lisa: I could do this all day.

Gabe: I but, you know, Lisa, if I told you, hey, your parents are going to stab you in the back, you need to not do something. You wouldn’t believe me, right? You’d be like, no, my mom and dad aren’t going to do that now. Now, obviously, that’s your mom and dad. People are like, well, yeah, that’s her parents. I recognize that I should not have had this level of faith in my coworkers. But as you know, Lisa, I was a rock star there. I was the youngest person who was ever hired. I was well respected. I was on a management track. If I never got sick, I would probably still be there.

Lisa: Yeah, doing quite well.

Gabe: I was doing quite well when I hired and they only wanted to give me more. Why on earth would I think that that would suddenly change based on a diagnosis that was given to me by a doctor? Obviously, you were right. I know you were right. I give you full props, but I’m still struggling with why? How? This is absurd that you were right. It’s absurd.

Lisa: At a certain point, dealing with the stigma and the reactions of other people for you actually did become more difficult than dealing with the illness itself. Yeah, it was terrible. I just. How did you not know this? How could you not have known that this was in our culture ahead of time? I mean, what was your own reaction to people with mental illness? Were you nothing but progressive and understood and had nothing but sympathy and compassion?

Gabe: I did not really know anybody with mental illness, so I never had an opportunity to try this out, so.

Lisa: There wasn’t anybody in your family who just couldn’t get their shit together?

Gabe: Well, yeah, that’s not mental illness, that’s couldn’t get their shit together. My family didn’t recognize mental illness in me and I didn’t recognize mental illness in me. So I was that person. I couldn’t get my shit together. And we sure as hell didn’t think it was mental illness. Once it was diagnosed with mental illness. Let’s flip it and pretend that I’m the perfectly sane one and a family member is diagnosed with mental illness. I would not have threatened them or been mean to them or dismissive of them. But I am fairly confident that I probably would have done nothing. And silence implies consent. In my workplace, not every single member of my workplace attacked me. That’s nonsense. Only three or four people did the horrible stigmatizing things that I’m talking about. The other 30 just sat there and watched and did nothing.

Lisa: Like management.

Gabe: Like management, for example, so, yes, so you’re asking me, Gabe, do you live in the real world? I don’t think I would have ever been mean to somebody with mental illness, and I would have thought that doing nothing was neutral or helpful. But in actuality, doing nothing was very painful to me because the people who I thought were my friends and allies turned out not to be in this case. But yes, I would have accidentally stigmatized my mentally ill friends, family or coworkers. I would never, ever have threatened to kill them. I want to be very clear.

Lisa: And I want to point out, you’re not kidding on the death threat thing, that is not an exaggeration. It sounds like it. Very few people believe you when you tell them. But, yeah, that actually happened.

Gabe: It happened in writing, 

Lisa: Yeah,

Gabe: In writing.

Lisa: In e-mails. Yeah, we had the emails, printed them out, took them to management, took them to H.R. and still nothing was done to stop this behavior. 

Gabe: No, no. Something was done to stop.

Lisa: Well that’s true. That’s true. You were fired.

Gabe: Yes.

Lisa: That definitely did stop that problem.

Gabe: I was let go, they did handle it, they said that I was inviting the conflict, that

Lisa: Yeah,

Gabe: That was the solution.

Lisa: Yeah, it is unbelievable, if I had not been there, I probably would not believe you. It was so extreme.

Gabe: And that’s another thing that I wish I would have known, it does fit into stigma. I wish I knew that people would stop believing things that I said. Look how we’ve structured this conversation. We’ve made sure that I have brought proof that somebody threatened to kill me because they got angry with me at work and that I was the one let go. I’ve got Lisa here vouching for me. Why isn’t my word enough? And I’m constantly with my friends, my family members and even on panels where I say that things happened and people are like, well, did they? Are you sure? And this is particularly traumatizing for people with mental illness when they report abuse or misunderstandings from doctors, therapists, orderlies, hospital staff, because we say, hey, X happened and the other side says, no, it didn’t. And they’re like, well, you know, yeah, it didn’t. I mean, you’re the crazy one. So we don’t have to believe you. We’re not even going to investigate. I didn’t know that before I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, Lisa. I commanded so much respect and people saw me as somebody with so much integrity that if I said it happened, that was the end of it. After I was diagnosed, I better bring along the smoking gun, proof and, you know, something notarized from God. It was, it was very, the contrast was incredibly stark for me.

Lisa: You know, I’ve been stable for so long that that really doesn’t come up for me very much anymore, but every once in a while I’ll mention maybe offhand that, yeah, I take antidepressants, I’ve taken them for a long time, and someone will suddenly, after years of knowing me, start acting differently or say something or be like, huh? Really? 

Gabe: We’ll be back in a minute after these messages.

Announcer: Interested in learning about psychology and mental health from experts in the field? Give a listen to the Psych Central Podcast, hosted by Gabe Howard. Visit PsychCentral.com/Show or subscribe to The Psych Central Podcast on your favorite podcast player.

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Lisa: And we’re back, talking about things we wish we knew when we were diagnosed with mental illness.

Gabe: Another thing that I wish I knew when I was diagnosed is that living publicly with bipolar disorder has this exceptionally high cost. I just thought that being who I was enough. Like that was enough. Like Gabe, why are you telling people you have bipolar disorder? Because I do. 

Lisa: Well, I think that you knew something was wrong, something was clearly wrong, you had this underlying wrongness. And so when you finally had a name to put to it, you were just so relieved. You felt that it justified a lot of your behavior and you were just so relieved to finally have an answer, to have a word, to have a way to express what was happening, that you wouldn’t shut up about it. You told everybody, which I advised against.

Gabe: I didn’t expect telling people that I had bipolar disorder to absolve me of the responsibility. I thought that it provided a clear explanation of my behavior, which would lead to forgiveness or understanding or mending the relationships and.

Lisa: Right, or a chance to explain further.

Gabe: And in some cases, it did. My relationship with my parents got a lot better once they understood that, OK, Gabe isn’t a jackass, he’s sick and he’s working on it. It gave us a starting point to mend fences. They now understood why my behavior was erratic in a way that they did not before. And I understood why my behavior was erratic in a way that I didn’t understand before. That’s what I was excited about. That’s why I told everybody. I guess I don’t want people to think that it only had bad consequences. If I could do it over again, I would only tell my family and friends and I would not tell anybody at work.

Lisa: That would also be what I would wish for you. This just gave you so much insight and understanding into yourself that you wanted to share it with others. You wanted them to also have this insight and understanding into you. It became an important thing to you that you wanted to tell other people about. We talk about that a lot about should you be open at work? Eh, good for the cause. Might not turn out so well for you. There’s a definite cost to that. And you paid it.

Gabe: Ultimately, I’m happy with my decision, I get to be me.

Lisa: But you would have liked to have done that on your own terms, I would say that you are not, in fact, happy with that particular decision. If you had it to do over again, you would not have told your work back then.

Gabe: I would not have.

Lisa: You might still have ended up in the same place or thought to yourself, hey, the very fact that I can’t tell these people means I need to go become a mental health advocate. But yeah, you would not do that over again. It was not worth it.

Gabe: This is of course, one of those interesting lemonade out of lemons things. The reality is, is I do regret it. I regret it a lot. And at times I regretted it more than others. But in many ways, it sort of reminds me of the guy who applied to be the piano player at the brothel.

Lisa: Ok, I’m not familiar with that story.

Gabe: Oh, it’s it’s. 

Lisa: Oh, good a chance for you to share an anecdote.

Gabe: You know, I love anecdotes, so this guy comes to town and he needs a job, so he walks into a brothel and he says, hey, are you hiring for anything? And they said, well, we’re hiring for a piano player. Can you play the piano? And he says, no, no, I can’t play the piano. And they said, well, that’s the only job we have. So he goes out and he tries to find a job and instead he starts a business. And 20 years later, he’s a multimillionaire. He’s on the world stage and everybody loves him. And he’s just really famous and he’s really rich. And his mother says to him, you know, don’t you wish that you would have taken piano lessons? Imagine what you could have been. And he thinks about it for a minute and he says, Huh, I guess I’d be a piano player in a brothel. The point is, is that you never know how things are going to interconnect or work out or go together. And in this case, him ignoring his mother’s wishes to play the piano made him a multimillionaire. But it can turn out many different ways. In my situation, if I hadn’t told anybody, yeah, I’d still be in that job. Maybe I’d be making lots

Lisa: Maybe.

Gabe: Of money. Maybe I wouldn’t. I don’t know. I am fairly certain that if all of these bad things hadn’t happened to me. I never would have become a mental health advocate because I became a mental health advocate so that nobody else had to go through this misery. I guess the misery, it was training to be an advocate. I’m just so sad that this misery exists. And that I had to go through it.

Lisa: But you don’t know how it would have turned out, maybe on your way to that job, you would have gotten hit by a bus.

Gabe: Yeah, you always say 

Lisa: It totally could have gone another way,

Gabe: You always say stuff like that.

Lisa: Because you always go with the best-case scenario. That’s not necessarily what could have happened. Anything could have happened. You might have ended up in the exact same place.

Gabe: Yeah, we all get that. My only point is that I would not have become a mental health advocate if bad things didn’t happen to me, the only reason I was an advocate is because bad things happened hard stop. I went through hell and I saw other people going through hell and I became a mental health advocate to stop them from going through hell. Some people would argue that’s worth it. I don’t know that that’s worth it. I’m just saying that’s where I ended up. This is one of those things that people will debate until they’re blue in the face. Oh, well, if you’re happy now, it all turned out the way it was supposed to. I don’t know that I’m leading my best life, my worst life or just a life. The bottom line, though, is, is had I made different decisions, I’d end up in a different place. And people seem to like this show. So I guess the job that fired me for getting a death threat did all of our listeners a solid.

Lisa: You’re welcome. Going back to the theme of the show, you do wish that you had known that this would happen, you wish that you had known how deep the stigma went so that you could have prepared for it differently.

Gabe: Yeah, and then I never would have done it. Never would have done it. Never would have told them at work. 

Lisa: If you wanted to tell people at work now after so many years of stability or recovery, that’s a whole different thing than right at the beginning when it’s still new to you and you’re still adjusting and you’re still coming to terms with it.

Gabe: And I wish I knew that conversations like this had to take place where I would be sitting at home with my wife and saying, OK, somebody asked me why I was out for six weeks. Now when Jenny was out for six weeks, she said it’s because she had a baby. And when Jimmy was out for six weeks, he said it’s because he broke his hip in a jet ski accident. Now, I was out for six weeks being treated by a doctor in a hospital. But you’re saying that I should lie. Like that’s, that feels bad to me. You know, Jimmy and Jenny, they got casseroles and cards and letters and there was a potluck when they came back, they decorated their desk. When I came back, there was nothing. There was nothing.

Lisa: No casseroles, not a casserole illness.

Gabe: Nothing, nothing.

Lisa: And at the next job, we told absolutely no one.

Gabe: Yeah, and it did turn out better in terms of none of the stigma, none of the discrimination, but I had a very difficult time making meaningful connections with my coworkers because I felt like I was always on guard and always hiding. And that juxtaposition, the openness was bad. The being closed was bad, made me pick the lesser of two evils, which I decided to go ahead and be open, knowing full well that I was inviting stigma, discrimination and chaos into my life. It was a very difficult decision and frankly, it sucked that I had to make one. I do wish that I would have understood that. And you know what else? I wish I would have understood the seething anger that accompanied this discrimination and this diagnosis and the way that it impacted my, my. Lisa, I was I was angry.

Lisa: You know what I’m going to say, this is what white male privilege is, because you’d never had this experience before,

Gabe: That is true.

Lisa: Because there’s been plenty of times that something has happened to me and I think to myself, is this because I’m a woman? Is he not taking me seriously because I’m female? I’m not sure. Maybe he’s just a jerk who doesn’t take people seriously. But I wonder. You never had to wonder these things.

Gabe: I never did.

Lisa: That’s what privilege is. Never wondering about it. So now you started thinking to yourself, huh? Is my boss giving me this problem because he knows that I’m going to be out for a psychiatric reason? Or is he just not a very good boss? You never had to think about how you were portrayed to other people. You could just relax and be yourself. You didn’t have to constantly be on guard. That was very difficult for you. You just didn’t have any experience with it.

Gabe: None, none whatsoever. I could just be who I was, and if I didn’t get the job, it’s because I didn’t get the job. I didn’t have to wonder if I didn’t get the job because I had bipolar disorder. This has been explained to me in so many different ways and so many times. And it’s fascinating to me because you’re right, this set me up higher to fall further. And in that way it’s a negative. But on the other hand, cry me a river. You had all of this free birth right stuff because of your race and gender. I struggle with this a lot because I don’t want to come off as arrogant. But that was difficult for me.

Lisa: It was. It was surprisingly difficult for you.

Gabe: I didn’t have any training or experience at this, you know, my father is a white male, too. He didn’t teach me any of this, probably because he didn’t know it existed. Nobody prepared me for this. And it made it harder suddenly wondering if people liked me based on something I couldn’t control.

Lisa: This lack of confidence was very difficult for you. It was surprising to me at how difficult that was for you.

Gabe: And this manifested as rage, just literally rage, I was angry all the time, and to try to get ahead of this, I would just explain to people why I was pissed off and why I had been wronged and how the universe had screwed me. And remember what you said there, little Kiner?

Lisa: Yeah. I said to you, yeah, God f**ked you and nobody cares, you can’t pay the bills with your sad story.

Gabe: I would like to point out you were wrong

Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gabe: About the second part.

Lisa: Now you’re paying the bills with the story, yes, yes, yes, anyway.

Gabe: But you were right. No, I was only alienating the few people that I had left, but I didn’t realize at the time. And truthfully, I don’t think you realized at the time either how much of this anger was symptomatic. 

Lisa: Yeah, all the time.

Gabe: I think that we saw bipolar disorder as the depression and the mania and the grandiose thinking. I don’t think that we considered that anger was part of bipolar disorder. And I say that because in the early years, we never reported that level of hostility or anger to my therapist or my doctor. It wasn’t a symptom that we were on the lookout for, which is one of the reasons that it makes the list of things that I wished I knew when I was diagnosed, because I wish that I could have told my therapist, my doctors how much anger I was actually having.

Lisa: And gotten some help.

Gabe: Yeah, I could have gotten some help for it. Once we understood it, remember? I went to anger management. We started talking to my therapist about anger. And you were the start of that because I realized that I had to do something about anger. And when I started talking about it openly, that’s when I found out that there was this intersectionality or connection or symptom. And I was like, well, all stuff that would have been good to know yesterday. 

Lisa: I feel that a little bit with my own diagnosis, with depression, when I first started getting treatment for depression, in my mind, depression was sadness. So the doctor said, how are you doing? Well, I’m not sad. There you go. It didn’t occur to me that there were other symptoms, the fatigue or the lack of motivation. I didn’t associate these things with depression. So when it came time to tell a medical practitioner how I was doing, I was leaving out huge swaths of the story, which no doubt led to me getting worse care than I would have otherwise. To add to the things you wish you knew the day you were diagnosed, just more about bipolar disorder, more about the symptoms, the symptomology, what was going to happen in the course of the illness. It would have been nice to just know more.

Gabe: And that leads me to another thing that I wish that somebody would have told me when I was diagnosed, that support groups are not bullshit.

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: They just they sounded so I had seen 12 step programs portrayed on TV with everybody in the basement and all of the who’s going to share. And I just I mocked them. 

Lisa: Me too

Gabe: Just listen to me.

Lisa: I was shocked.

Gabe: I made fun of support groups and then we got so desperate, Lisa, you made me go because we had just run out of options.

Lisa: Yeah, there was just nothing else to do.

Gabe: We had zero, zero hope that this would be effective and it turned out to be one of the most influential things in my recovery.

Lisa: It made a big deal at the time, for me too.

Gabe: And to go from openly mocking something and saying that it was stupid and wouldn’t work and it was dumb and only weak people go, that’s the other thing. I mocked the participants. I just, I feel so incredibly guilty for being such an asshole. People were doing something that was providing value to their life. And I was mocking them like, how arrogant is that? When you made me go, Lisa, as you know, we live in a big city and I was able to find a lot of support groups. And the one that I went to was called Bipolar Bears because I was scared to go. And frankly, that name, that name sounded

Lisa: Comforting.

Gabe: Comforting to me. I went to the very first one, and this didn’t happen immediately. I was in there

Lisa: Yeah, you had to go to for a few before you started feeling there was value.

Gabe: Yeah, I was in there with a few people and I didn’t kind of know what I thought about it, but we had agreed that I would try to, I forget how many I would agree to? I Would go to a few.

Lisa: It was like three or four.

Gabe: Yeah, then the magical moment for me was when I was sitting in that room and a woman was just talking about her day. That’s it. There was nothing mind blowing or mind shattering. And she said something about cleaning the house and working with her husband and getting the kids ready. And I just looked at her and she looked so normal. She was a wife and a mother and a homeowner. Now, I have no idea this woman’s name. I know nothing about her. I would not recognize her if I passed her on the street to this day. But I immediately realized that she was a woman living with bipolar disorder, leading the kind of life that I wanted, which meant that I could do it. It’s doable. It’s so much easier to do something after you see somebody else do it first. That was probably the biggest moment in support groups. I’m a huge fan of them. As you know, Lisa, I went on to become a support group facilitator. That’s how much I believe in these. I was a volunteer for years. I meet a lot of people, especially men, especially men, that the minute you bring up support group, they roll their eyes and they think all the same things that I did the day that I was diagnosed. I wish someone would have gotten through to me and said, you’re an idiot. Go. They are amazing. There’s lots of different types. There’s lots of different options. There’s, there’s 12 steps. There’s discussion. There’s I’m not even naming them all. They’re led by peers. They’re led by therapists. There’s, there is one that will work for you where you are if you put a little elbow grease and Googling into finding them.

Lisa: That’s the thing to emphasize, that there are so many options, especially for us in a large city, if one of them isn’t working for you, the structure, the folks, whatever, there are other choices out there. You aren’t constrained by just this one model.

Gabe: And you age out, you know, I don’t go to the Bipolar Bears anymore, I went for a long time and then I stopped. I went to the Depression Bipolar Support Alliance for a while. I went to the Connections group for a while. There was a 12-step program, Emotions Anonymous, I went to for a while. And you’re thinking, well, if they’re all good, why did you switch around? Because I was in different points in my recovery. Also, you know, sometimes just groups’ dynamics change. You know, you might like a group for a while and then decide, well, you know, I’m not digging this group anymore, go away for a year and then come back. Well, there’s probably going to be all different people. That’s OK. I didn’t understand any of this and I can only imagine how helpful it would have been if I would have gone immediately after diagnosis rather than waiting, what, a year? 18 months?  I guess what I wish I would have known, Lisa, is to keep an open mind.

Lisa: Well, you know, the silver lining of COVID is that a lot of support groups are online now.

Gabe: Yes.

Lisa: If you are in a rural area, you don’t have a lot of options where you live, there’s a lot of options online.

Gabe: Very, very true. Google it and check it out.

Lisa: I went to one of the family support groups, and you’re saying that the thing that did it for you was seeing what a vision of the future could look like, that this was a possibility. The thing that did it for me was seeing that I wasn’t alone. It was actually the very first meeting when some gentleman was talking about his girlfriend and it could have been you. And I was just amazed that even though these people, you know, they were different ages, they had different jobs, different genders, but they were having such similar problems. That was very powerful. That I wasn’t alone on this out on my own. This wasn’t completely unique, that no one else had ever dealt with before. That was very valuable to me. And luckily, that support group was free because another thing I wish I had known on the day that you were diagnosed is just more information about health care and how the health care system works and how health insurance works. That was just a whole other problem. You’re not just dealing with the illness. You’re dealing with how to access care for the illness.

Gabe: There were two fascinating things that happened for me in regards to the mental health care system, one, it was just how messed up it really was. And I had money. I had health insurance. I had a support group and resources and lived in a big city. And two, your reaction to it, because you had been battling insurance companies for a physical health problem for a long-time and.

Lisa: You were frankly lucky to have me.

Gabe: I was very lucky to have you.

Lisa: Because I had a lot more experience than the average.

Gabe: Yes, the thing that you kept saying is, oh, my God, I thought that physical health care was messed up. This is so much worse. And I just, I thought that you got sick. You used your insurance to get help. That’s how I understood it. You were smarter than that. But you thought you jump through all the hoops and you got care. But there were so many extra hoops.

Lisa: Yeah, I was shocked and I didn’t expect it to be a good system or to be easy. I thought it was going to be complicated. It was so much more than I thought. And the part where everything is separated that there’s this divide between mental and physical health just creates its own problems.

Gabe: I have this, this really good memory of you saying, OK, Gabe, we’ve got you approved to see the doctor for three visits. And I said, well, what if I’m not better in three visits? And you said, I don’t know. They said that you have to be better in three visits. And I said, is this typical? And you said, no, no, it doesn’t work this way in any other illness. You get cancer. They’re not like, OK, well, you can see an oncologist three times and hopefully you’re cured. But in mental health, they’re like, oh, we’ve approved three visits. We’ve approved six visits. The insurance company is like, what? Magic eight ball? Bipolar disorder will be cured for Gabe in oh, looks like three visits. Where are they getting this number? And listen, I had health insurance. This was the Mercedes plan. 

Lisa: You did, you had amazing insurance.

Gabe: Don’t even get me started if you have Medicaid or Medicare or crappy health insurance. Like I said, I was cruising along in the Mercedes and I thought it was shit. Oh, some people, they don’t even have a car. It’s so bad.

Lisa: Well, not to mention the shortages and the wait times, every place you called would be like, oh, five months, six months. It was like, really? Really?

Gabe: I’m sick now, I’m sick right now.

Lisa: Apparently, America needs a lot more psychiatric practitioners. I just couldn’t understand why the market wasn’t satisfying this. If there’s so much demand for psychiatrists and people are willing to pay for it, why aren’t there more psychiatrists?

Gabe: Because people can’t afford to pay for it, it’s one of the lowest paying specialties in all of the medical field.

Lisa: Ok, fair enough.

Gabe: You need just as much training and it costs just as much money to be a psychiatrist as it does any other specialty. Yet here you are not only making less money, but every single psychiatrist that I’ve ever talked to is like we’re just looked at like we’re evil. You know, Lisa, we did that anti-psychiatry episode. And remember, they’re the target of this. Not only do they have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get this job, they are also paid less and they have an entire movement of people calling them murderers. I’m surprised we have any. We don’t have enough doctors. I don’t know how we’re going to get more.

Lisa: Gabe, out of curiosity, is that something you wish you’d known when you were diagnosed?

Gabe: Oh.

Lisa: Would that have helped?

Gabe: Oh, that’s I, you know, I’ve never really thought about it before, I just on one hand saying, no, I’m glad I didn’t know that. I’m glad that I thought the world was fair and that everybody loved me. Seems

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: Like I’m burying my head in the sand. Right. But that would have just been so overwhelming. Could you imagine if the day that I was diagnosed, somebody would have told me all of this, all the stuff that I’ve learned. I think it’s better that I did not know. But you recognize that a lot of people who are newly diagnosed know this is a problem because it’s preventing them from getting care. I’m saying that I think for my care, it’s better that I didn’t know, fully recognizing that the people who know the day they’re diagnosed are the most vulnerable people there are. 

Lisa: I’ve been thinking about this as we’re talking about this, I do wish I had known these things on the day I was diagnosed or the day you were diagnosed, but I don’t think I would have been super receptive to some of them. I think if someone had tried to tell me any of these things, I would have dismissed it or not believed it or thought it didn’t matter. 

Gabe: So, wait, you mean to tell me that if somebody would have warned you about this system, that you wouldn’t have believed them? Kind of like how when somebody warned me about stigma, I didn’t believe them? So you’re saying that you would have made a Gabe type decision because it just sounds so incredulous? Interesting.

Lisa: I don’t think that’s interesting at all.

Gabe: But just for the record, I agree with you, I don’t know that I would have understood this concept, I.

Lisa: I don’t know how you would even begin to explain it.

Gabe: Yeah.

Lisa: What are you going to put some of this in a pamphlet? Although I do feel like the medical practitioners around us had some non-zero responsibility, because that’s what informed consent is, to tell us some of this stuff, especially the big one for me is the time aspect of it. I had no understanding of it just wouldn’t be a linear process, there wouldn’t be a clear path forward, and how long it was going to take for you to get better. I had no concept of that. And the people around us knew. Your doctors knew. They all knew. They had to know that our expectations were completely unreasonable and no one ever said, hey, that’s completely unreasonable. I don’t know that I would have believed them, but I feel like they had an obligation to let us know that. And then we could have done what we wanted with the information. Chosen to believe it or not.

Gabe: Obviously from this vantage point, we now know all of the things that we wish we knew when we were diagnosed. But I’m very interested in that thing that you said where somebody should have told you, because it’s their responsibility to tell you. But as we’ve just illustrated, somebody did tell me one of these things and you admitted that if somebody had told you, you wouldn’t have believed them. How do we wrap our arms around this idea that simply telling people isn’t enough? We’ve both admitted on this show that either we didn’t use the information, Gabe, or that we wouldn’t have believed the information even if we had it. Lisa. How do we get this information to people when the two people on this podcast having this discussion have admitted that we wouldn’t have accepted the information and/or didn’t accept the information?

Lisa: Wow, that is a really good question, I, I don’t even know how to react to that. I don’t know. I’m not sure. But I am angry. I am upset that nobody told me this, especially your doctors, your therapists, et cetera. You’re not unique, this process of how long it takes and the fits and starts and the frustrations, that is not unique. That is pretty much universal. So they knew. They knew that this was the path before you and it wasn’t even hinted at. I don’t think that’s right. I think that information should be shared with us. But, yeah, I don’t know what I would have done with it. So I don’t have a good answer to this problem.

Gabe: I’m still hung up on this idea, Lisa, that you believe that doctors should tell us, I don’t think we would have listened to doctors. I didn’t listen to you. You already admitted that if somebody had explained to you that this is the way that it worked, you wouldn’t have believed them because it’s just so utterly ridiculous. Your brain would have rejected it outright. And there’s a shortage of doctors. Do you really think that doctors should sit down and try to explain all of this to us? 

Lisa: They could put it in a pamphlet.

Gabe: Could they? Could they put it in a pamphlet? And if it was that easy, why has nobody done it? But actually, it’s on the Internet. You know that it’s on the Internet, right? Hell, it’s in this podcast. Is the problem solved? Clearly, we are not reaching the people. Why are we not reaching the people with this information? That’s my question to you. The information is out there. Why do people not either A, consume it or B, believe it?

Lisa: Because they don’t want to.

Gabe: Now, that seems like a cop out.

Lisa: Because it’s sad and you don’t want to believe it.

Gabe: It is sad.

Lisa: The same reason everyone who gets a cancer diagnosis decides that they’re going to be in the percentage that makes it.

Gabe: But that’s, that’s a life or death thing that’s, that’s

Lisa: And this isn’t?

Gabe: I know, I mean, like I understand what you’re saying and I’m, but you’re confusing the issue in a way that I don’t think is serving this discussion. What I’m saying is, is I trusted you. You know that I trusted you. I did 99% of the things that you told me to do. And I followed you blindly. But you told me not to tell the people at work, to keep this on the down low or that discrimination would follow. And I did not believe you. Clearly, there’s nothing more that you could have done. If I didn’t believe you, I certainly wouldn’t believe a pamphlet. I certainly wouldn’t have believed a doctor. And as you just illustrated, if somebody had explained this to you, you wouldn’t have believed them. If somebody would have told you this is how the mental health system works. You, Lisa Kiner, would not have believed it. So no, no, it’s not because people don’t want to or because they’re stupid. And if they are, why didn’t we believe it? Because Gabe and Lisa are stupid and it’s sad and we don’t want to? Because we didn’t do it. So whatever reason you come up with as to why people don’t understand this applies to Gabe and Lisa. So be very careful with your next words because you’re describing us.

Lisa: I have no words, I’m going to have to think about this, I don’t know.

Gabe: It’s stunningly, surprisingly complicated.

Lisa: It is surprisingly complicated, yeah, it seemed much more straightforward when we started.

Gabe: I love that I was able to stump you.

Lisa: Eh, I wouldn’t say stump, just consider more deeply.

Gabe: You had unlimited time to answer this question and you couldn’t, and we’ve been mental health advocates for a decade, and if we knew the answer to this question, we’d do it. 

Lisa: Does anybody have the answer?

Gabe: I don’t think people have the answer. I think that people have some answers. Peer support, support groups sharing information. This podcast, I think that does get the information out there. But does it get it out there in a meaningful way for people who are unaware that they need it? What are the odds that somebody is going to get diagnosed on Monday and find our podcast on Tuesday? And more specifically,

Lisa: Believe it.

Gabe: Believe it or connect? You know, maybe if they find a middle-aged guy who gets diagnosed with bipolar disorder and he’s like, hey, I talk a lot, too. And I hang out with my ex-wife and I’m from Ohio. You know, I trust this guy. But it’s also possible the person listening to this podcast is of a different race or socioeconomic status or gender or lives in California and thinks these two are idiots. Our information is correct. But how do we get people to connect with it, to relate to it, to understand it, and most importantly, remember it when they need it the most?

Lisa: Is this something we can outsource to the comment section?

Gabe: Listen, if you have the answer hit up show@PsychCentral.com and tell us about it. We would love to hear from you. Wherever you download this podcast, please, please, please subscribe. And as I tell you every week, I am the author of Mental Illness Is an Asshole, which you can absolutely get on Amazon. But if you want to be one of the lucky people to get Not Crazy podcast stickers, go to gabehoward.com, buy it there. I’ll sign the book, and I’ll send you those stickers absolutely free.

Lisa: And we’ll see you all back next Tuesday.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Not Crazy Podcast from Psych Central. For free mental health resources and online support groups, visit PsychCentral.com. Not Crazy’s official website is PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy. To work with Gabe, go to gabehoward.com. Want to see Gabe and me in person?  Not Crazy travels well. Have us record an episode live at your next event. E-mail show@psychcentral.com for details. 

 The post Dear Newly Diagnosed: What We Wish We Knew first appeared on World of Psychology.

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Understanding a Dysfunctional Childhood

Let’s discuss the nuances of dysfunctional parenting. In today’s Not Crazy podcast, Gabe recalls the relationship he had with his parents when he was young. As a teen, he thought his parents were being overly harsh, but now he sees they were trying to punish symptoms of his undiagnosed bipolar disorder — and were doing the best they could.

Join us for a great discussion on how the parent-child dynamic can go wrong when undiagnosed mental illness is involved.

(Transcript Available Below)

Please Subscribe to Our Show: And We Love Written Reviews! 

About The Not Crazy podcast Hosts

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from Gabe Howard. To learn more, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

        Lisa is the producer of the Psych Central podcast, Not Crazy. She is the recipient of The National Alliance on Mental Illness’s “Above and Beyond” award, has worked extensively with the Ohio Peer Supporter Certification program, and is a workplace suicide prevention trainer. Lisa has battled depression her entire life and has worked alongside Gabe in mental health advocacy for over a decade. She lives in Columbus, Ohio, with her husband; enjoys international travel; and orders 12 pairs of shoes online, picks the best one, and sends the other 11 back.

    Computer Generated Transcript for “Dysfunctional Childhood” Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Lisa: You’re listening to Not Crazy, a Psych Central podcast hosted by my ex-husband, who has bipolar disorder. Together, we created the mental health podcast for people who hate mental health podcasts.

Gabe: Hey, everyone, and welcome to this episode of the Not Crazy podcast, I’m your host Gabe Howard. And with me, as always, is the sparkling Lisa Kiner.

Lisa: Thank you, Gabe. Hey, all, today’s quote is by C.S. Lewis, you can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

Gabe: But is that true?

Lisa: Yeah, of course that’s true, it’s never too late until you’re dead.

Gabe: That goes along with my quote, It’s never too late to have a happy childhood.

Lisa: No, that’s not similar at all.

Gabe: Are you sure? Because I think that memory is one of those weird things. The way that we remember things changes dramatically as additional information pops into our brain and now it should be no surprise that we’re going to be talking about Gabe’s childhood, specifically how toxic my parents were.

Lisa: Ok, but, yes, your memories are constantly being re-evaluated by your brain, but the actual truth of what happened is not. If you had a video camera that wouldn’t change, you could just go back and watch the video. What actually happened is the same. It’s just how you interpret it or feel about it has changed.

Gabe: But that’s a very esoteric concept and have you ever watched.

Lisa: You don’t use the word esoteric correctly. No, it’s not an esoteric concept. You mean to say nebulous,

Gabe: Fine, it’s a nebulous concept, I

Lisa: Ok?

Gabe: Think it’s esoteric, you think it’s nebulous, let’s call the whole thing off. The

Lisa: No, the words have actual meaning.

Gabe: Do they?

Lisa: Yes, that is the purpose of words.

Gabe: Do they?

Lisa: Oh, for God’s sakes. Ok.

Gabe: The point that I’m making is, is that the way that we see things change as additional information becomes available, for example, the whole world, literally, the whole world believes that there is a line in the movie Casablanca that says, play it again, Sam, that

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: Line doesn’t exist. And we all remember it. We all believe that it’s true. Now applying this to our own lives, I very much remember my childhood in a certain way, but it evolves as I put myself in the shoes of my parents. For example, when I was 15, my parents were idiot morons that were just trying to keep me from living my best life. And when I was 25, they were horrible abusers that were trying to kill me. And now that I’m 43, they’re boring and they just bicker a lot. But I’m remembering the same.

Lisa: We need to go back to that twenty-five-year-old thing, oh, my God, really?

Gabe: Well, I knew you at twenty-five, that’s.

Lisa: And that convinced you that your parents had been trying to kill you?

Gabe: Somebody had to be trying to kill me. It was either that. 

Lisa: What?

Gabe: Or made up stuff. If it wasn’t them, who was it?

Lisa: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, back up. You thought your parents were trying to kill you when you were 25?

Gabe: So.

Lisa: Like, wait, wait, wait. Were they trying to kill you when you were 25? Or looking back on it, you thought to yourself, gee, they were trying to kill me 10 years ago?

Gabe: I, probably all of it. Remember back then, I thought that demons were hiding under my bed, I was paranoid. I thought that something was trying to kill me and I very much blamed them for all of my problems because I had to blame somebody and my world was very small. In fairness, I also blamed my ex-wife, society and probably several celebrities. It was a hectic time. But remember, those who are closest to you take the brunt of the blame. It’s no surprise that when you and I got married, it transitioned over to you.

Lisa: There is so much there.

Gabe: There is. There’s an incredible amount there.

Lisa: And all of this is coming up because we received an email with a question and the question is, Gabe, how old were you when your bipolar symptoms appeared and when were you diagnosed? Did you have a relationship with your immediate family members then? And how did they help or hurt your recovery?

Gabe: Obviously, we’re going to discuss this a lot more because, you know, we need to fill a longer show, but the speed round answers were the symptoms were kind of always with me. Nobody just recognized them. Right? I thought about suicide as far back as I can remember. Like literally from birth. Yeah. It was just always part of me. I showed symptoms of bipolar disorder in my teen years. Yeah, it was always there. I was 25 when I was finally diagnosed and my relationship with my immediate family was strained when I was diagnosed, I.

Lisa: Before the diagnosis or because of the diagnosis?

Gabe: Oh, no, before. It was strained because of the

Lisa: So at the time of diagnosis, your relationship was strained?

Gabe: Yeah, it was strained, it was, it was problematic, I don’t want to say bad because we were still in touch. I consider bad like I haven’t talked to my mom for five years. Like, that’s bad or like extreme abuse. Like your family is stealing from you or,

Lisa: Ok.

Gabe: You know, I don’t know that.

Lisa: So, it wasn’t as good as it is now. So, strained.

Gabe: Oh, no, no, no, now, now it’s fine.

Lisa: Now, do you think that was strained because of your behavior and your symptoms?

Gabe: Oh, yes, yes, without a doubt, my behavior was very problematic, both in the way that I treated them and in the way that I perceived they treated me, that’s like the real bitch about bipolar disorder, right? It sort of warps what you see. And that’s very hard to get over. Even after treatment, it took years to reflect back and realize, oh, what a weird reason to be angry.

Lisa: You say that you had symptoms of bipolar disorder in your teens. What types of symptoms are we talking about?

Gabe: When I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, my mother said to me, after she learned what bipolar disorder was, she said, oh my God, I always described you as my Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde child. And I said, Mom, that’s literally what bipolar disorder is. How did you not think that something was wrong? And she was like, well, I just I thought it was hormones. I thought it was boys will be boys. I thought it was the teenage years. I. In my parents’ defense, I’m the oldest. This was their first teenager. They didn’t know what the hell was going on. And teenage boys are ridiculous. We’re. Watch any coming of age movie, and I don’t know that my behavior was all that atypical. If you get your mental health education from pop culture, they just thought that I just needed direction.

Lisa: I’ve often thought that, especially about parents of teenagers, you know, like if you have a kid who’s crippled by anxiety. Well, the point of a parent is to say, no, no, no, you can do it. Go out there, try the thing. Well, at a certain point, they can’t. Your parents specifically, like you said, you’re the oldest. Teenagers are moody. You were moody. Teenagers are dramatic. You were dramatic.

Gabe: See, here’s where I think it’s a good idea to talk about the hidden symptom of bipolar disorder, and I’m trying to be like, really dramatic, like dun dun dunn. See, everybody thinks of bipolar disorder as the two poles, right? Suicidal depression and God-like mania. And those are absolutely symptoms of bipolar disorder. But what people get wrong is that it’s a spectrum illness, meaning suicidal depression is the lowest you can hit and God-like mania is the highest that you can hit. But you’re going back and forth on this spectrum. That’s what gets me to my quote unquote, hidden symptom. It is reasonable and probable and likely and possible that through doing nothing, you will end up in the middle. You will end up quote unquote, normal, just fine. And in my teenage years, that’s when I would excel in my after-school activities. That’s when I would excel in school. That’s when I would be the charismatic, intelligent, charming Gabe that my parents were trying to raise. And when that middle ground fell in the vicinity of a punishment, we now know that that was just luck. That was just random. But at the time, my parents were like, well, Gabe acted up. We grounded him. And now look. Now look, he’s doing great. He joined a club. Look at all his friends. He’s mowing the lawn like we asked. That was just luck. I was just asymptomatic, but I wasn’t actually asymptomatic. I was just in the middle of that spectrum.

Lisa: That is asymptomatic.

Gabe: Well, sure, but this further drove home to my parents that what they were doing was working, but it was actually just the disease process randomly linking up in the vicinity of my parents’ discipline.

Lisa: I’m confused. You keep calling it a hidden symptom, but that’s not a symptom, that’s a period of normality. You’re saying that at times you had a normal mood state because you were in between the two extremes. That’s actually the lack of symptoms. That’s not a hidden symptom. That is a period of normal mood state. That’s not a symptom.

Gabe: I understand what you’re saying, and I don’t mean to be confusing, but the reason that I call it a hidden symptom is because it still has negative consequences. So, you’re describing it as being symptom free, but you’re still on the bipolar spectrum. It’s not like because I am asymptomatic, I am not having symptoms.

Lisa: Yes, actually, that’s what the word asymptomatic means.

Gabe: Ok, you’re right. Let me, let me, let me clarify further, I’m trying to spin an analogy, and it’s clearly not working well. Let’s take an example. So, I get suspended from school because I’m dancing in the front of the room and I’m being the class clown because that’s what mania looks like. Right? So, I get suspended from school. I come home, mom and dad sit me down and they say, OK, Gabe, OK, well, we have to curb this behavior. This is bad behavior. So, my parents ground me, they ground me. And for the three days that I’m suspended, I have to work in the garden. And then I go back to school a week later and suddenly I’m good, I’m perfect. I’m respectful to my parents. Everything is fine. In my parents’ mind, the punishment worked, grounding me worked. That is a reasonable thing to think. But in reality, had my parents done absolutely nothing, the next week when I went back to school, I wouldn’t have been manic. The disease process would have shifted and I would have been perfectly fine.

Gabe: But they didn’t realize that. And here’s why that’s a problem, because the next time that I was the class clown, they thought, OK, no problem, we’ll ground him for a week and we’ll make him work in the garden. But that didn’t work the next time and that only gave them the option to be like, OK, we have to push harder. We have to ground him for two weeks and make him work in the neighbor’s garden. I don’t know. And they thought I was being obstinate.

Lisa: What you’re saying is that your mood would cycle in and out of a period of normalcy, as is the way with bipolar disorder, but your parents would attribute it to something they did

Gabe: Correct, yes.

Lisa: Like he was acting all out of control. We grounded him. He stopped doing it. Therefore, the grounding worked. Therefore, next time he acts all out of control, we will ground him again. And if that doesn’t work, we’ll just escalate and escalate and escalate.

Gabe: Right.

Lisa: But in reality, this was just the ups and downs of bipolar disorder. It actually wasn’t related.

Gabe: Yes, exactly, but there’s another little insidious piece there, and that’s what I really want people to focus on, my parents believed that I could do it. You’re asking why would they try to ground the symptoms of an illness out of their child? How sick is that? Could you imagine if I came home with a broken arm and they’re like, well, you’re grounded until your arm is not broken? We’d call Children’s Services. That’s sadistic. You grounded your son for having a broken arm? But remove broken arm and put in mania, depression, rage. That’s what they tried to do. They literally tried to punish the symptoms out of me. And you’re asking why on earth would they do that? Because it worked. At least they thought they saw it work. They knew that I could be good. They’ve seen it. It’s like an intermittent problem with their son. It’s like when you take the car to the mechanic. What’s that saying?

Lisa: Oh, every time you take the car to the mechanic, the problem is gone.

Gabe: Yeah, their son just happened to have an intermittent problem, so every time they took me to the mechanic, I ran fine.

Lisa: Their thinking was that because there were times where you did behave normally, where you were asymptomatic, they thought, OK, clearly, he can control it. If he’s capable of doing it sometimes, he’s capable of doing it all the time.

Gabe: Exactly, exactly. But here’s the thing that sucks. I thought that, too. I wanted to be a good kid. I think that’s important to understand. My parents pictured me as intentionally malicious, intentionally acting up. That’s what they saw. I was not trying to do that. Well, I thought that my parents were boring and, well, stupid. And I didn’t want their life in any way because of the aforementioned boring and stupid thing. I did respect my parents. They worked hard. They paid their bills. They were active in their community. And make no mistake, even in my angriest moments, if I got in trouble, I called them. There was never a time, never a time, that I got in trouble that I thought, well, I can’t call my parents. I always knew that I could call them. But yeah, yeah, I yeah, I don’t even know what to say. I just I. I felt.

Lisa: I always knew I could count on them.

Gabe: So to summarize, did I have a relationship with my immediate family members? Yes, but it was incredibly strained because of, well, all the things that we just talked about.

Lisa: We’re talking about did you have a relationship with your immediate family at the time of diagnosis, that was when you were 25. You must have left home at 18 or 19. What happened in those intervening years?

Gabe: I moved out when I was 18 and still in high school because I just had to get away from them, I just, I couldn’t stand them.

Lisa: But you moved in with your grandparents, right?

Gabe: Yeah, I could stand them, I like them.

Lisa: It’s not like you moved out on your own, you just went to stay with other family.

Gabe: Yeah, I was willing to go out on my own, I, I just.

Lisa: But your parents thought that was a terrible idea.

Gabe: This is where memories change, right? Here’s what 18-year-old Gabe thought happened. My parents were assholes. I can’t take them anymore. I’m not dealing with this shit. I’m out of here. Grandma saved me. Right? That’s what Gabe thought was happening. Here’s what actually happened. Gabe was ready to run away from home and do whatever it took to be away from them. And my parents called my grandparents and said, OK, we need to work together to make sure that he graduates high school and save him from himself because he’s getting ready to run face first into fire. And he’s too stupid to realize it. And they all work together for the next two years to make sure that I got a high school diploma, to make sure that I matured, to make sure that I made friends, that I was in mock trial, that I had something to fall back, that I learned computers. My parents still paid all my bills, even though, you know, under my breath, I called them assholes all the time and they knew that I call them assholes. They’re not stupid, but I ran away from them. That’s what actually happened. That’s a really big difference. So, it’s hard to be mad at them now that I see the full picture. But I was so mad at them when I left, Lisa. So mad.

Lisa: But why were you so mad, what were they doing wrong?

Gabe: They were punishing the symptoms of bipolar disorder.

Lisa: But none of you knew that. You thought it was bad behavior and so did they. Why would you be angry about that?

Gabe: Because I just felt so strongly that I was trying and that they didn’t recognize it. I don’t think my parents realized how desperate I was to make them happy. Who wants to be a bad kid? I did want my parents’ respect. Hell, I still want my parents’ respect. I never thought my parents were bad people. I thought they were boring. I’m not trying to rewrite history to where I suddenly thought might, no. I thought my, hell, I still think they’re boring. If I have to hear about one more episode of Ice Road Truckers, I may scream, but who cares?

Lisa: Your father has regaled me with many stories of the cinematic masterpiece that is Ice Road Truckers. Yeah.

Gabe: Oh, that’s awesome.

Lisa: It never gets more interesting. Never. But your parents weren’t completely oblivious that there was more than normal teenage angst going on here, because they did take you to a psychologist.

Gabe: That’s true.

Lisa: This would have been in the early 90s, the idea of how you treated children and mental illness in children was just completely different. It would have been extremely unusual to take your kid to a child psychologist.

Gabe: You’re right, in the early 90s, it was completely unusual to take your kid to any sort of therapy. But wait, there’s more. My father is a truck driver. He’s blue collar. He believes that all problems can be resolved by rubbing mud on it. And he took his child to a child psychologist. In the early 90s there were white collar professionals with MBAs that wouldn’t take their kids to child psychologists. My parents were actually just so ahead of the curve. My parents admitted that they weren’t able to handle this and took me to a therapist. We got family counseling. Are you kidding me? There are families that struggle with that in 2020. They were progressive.

Lisa: Well, it couldn’t have been easy, there weren’t very many child psychologists running around, it was probably quite a lot of effort to even find someone.

Gabe: I have no idea how they found my child psychologist, but yes, we went to family counseling.

Lisa: What made them decide to do this, what was the breaking point?

Gabe: I honestly don’t know what the breaking point was, but, yeah, like what a question that would be, you know what I mean? I’m.

Lisa: We should call your mother and ask. That might be the next episode.

Gabe: Maybe I don’t want the answer.

Lisa: Well, I want the answer.

Gabe: It just when it comes to like rewriting history or retconning, as the kids like to say today. My parents did not fit the mold of people that utilized psychological services, therapy, child psychologists, we were very stereotypically blue collar. My father drives the 18-wheeler semi, honks the horn for kids. He says things like, we’re going back to the house. He couldn’t be more of a stereotype if they tried. My mom, a housewife with a part time job when the kids got older. I mean, it’s like Americana. You just want to vomit. It’s so stereotypical. We eat dinner together as a family, just like.

Lisa: It’s Leave it to Beaver without the white-collar income.

Gabe: Yeah, basically, how on earth did these people be so progressive that they admitted that they needed help with their kid? Like, is that how messed up I was that I was able to break that mold? Like, that’s messed up, right?

Lisa: Was your dad gone for long periods of time as a truck driver?

Gabe: No, no, no. Not long periods of time, he left one day and came back the next day. So, he would be gone like every other night.

Lisa: So, he was gone every other night, he was absent from home quite a bit.

Gabe: Yeah, yeah, three nights a week he was not home. He had a very varying schedule, especially when I was younger and he was newer.

Lisa: Yeah, not high up in the union yet. Meaning that it was even more of a burden for him to go to the therapy appointment.

Gabe: Yeah, yes.

Lisa: Because it’s not like he could just send you with your mom, you all had to go.

Gabe: Huh, you’re kind of blowing my mind because I didn’t even think of that.

Lisa: Well, yeah, it couldn’t have been easy to schedule around him.

Gabe: I. Do you want me to give them a medal? I just look, when I was diagnosed at 25, I was positive that they screwed me up.

Lisa: Because you thought that bipolar disorder was the fault of poor parenting?

Gabe: Yes, I also thought that I could have been violent at any moment and that I was going to die and that I needed to live in a group home, remember. . . 

Lisa: So we’re doing myths of bipolar here.

Gabe: But they weren’t myths at the time, but.

Lisa: Well, they were always myths you just didn’t know that.

Gabe: Ok, yes, yes, but perception becomes reality. 

Lisa: Right.

Gabe: When I was in the psychiatric hospital, I was locked behind the doors. I was staring at a doctor. They diagnosed with bipolar disorder. And all I could think of was, thank God I didn’t kill my family and I need to live in a group home and I’m going to die soon because everybody with bipolar disorder was violent, lived in a group home and eventually killed themselves. That’s all I understood. And then, of course, I learned more and more and more and my memories changed. Things shifted. 

Lisa: Gabe, you’re skipping back and forth a lot, it’s kind of confusing.

Gabe: What do you need clarified? This is just my life, it’s all jumbled in my brain as 

Lisa: Well, let’s go back to the part where your parents are taking you to the child psychologist, so clearly, they’ve discovered something is wrong. This is more than just being a normal teenager. We can’t handle this. We need to reach outside for professional help. What happened? Did it work?

Gabe: I don’t know.

Lisa: Did you get better?

Gabe: I don’t know.

Lisa: Didn’t you go there for, like, years? I mean, it’s not like they took you once and stopped.

Gabe: I honestly don’t know if it helped me understand them, but in some ways, I think that it helped my parents understand me. My family believes in paddling. My dad had a paddle, it had a handle and he whacked me on the butt with it. And I was terrified of this thing and it was demeaning and degrading. And plus, it’s violence. I see it very much as violence. And I, I said all of the things that I just said in the therapist’s office, and he said, you know, Gabe’s really old. Why are you still threatening him with violence? And my dad’s like, well, it’s just paddling. And he’s like, well, but, but it’s violence. You’re saying that the way to work out problems, if you don’t like how your son is behaving, is not to talk to him, but to threaten him with violence. And this made my parents get rid of not only the actual paddle, but the threats of it. And it forced them, whenever there was behavior that they didn’t like, to discuss it with me. There’s this little piece of me that still pissed off that I had to endure this shit for 13, 14 years. But my brother and sister, who are younger, it disappeared immediately for them, too. So, you’re welcome.

Lisa: Hang on, we’ll be right back after these messages.

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Gabe: And we’re back, talking about my teenage years.

Lisa: Your parents had a specific way of disciplining their kids that they probably learned from their own parents and this is what they did because this is what they knew. But what you’re saying is that as soon as someone else, a professional, a child psychologist, said to them, yeah, that’s a terrible idea, don’t do that, they stopped immediately. They didn’t argue. They didn’t try to equivocate. They were like, huh? All right. Well, now that we have better information, we’re going to not do that anymore.

Gabe: I don’t think that it had ever occurred to them how it looked from my perspective, because from my perspective, what you were saying is I’m not interested in your ridiculous little opinion. Do as I say. Do as I say. And the therapist was able to point out, your son is a few years from being out in the world and he’s not going to be able to threaten people with violence when he doesn’t get his way. And if he is unable to articulate his needs, wants, desires and unable to argue with people, then you are stunting his development. I don’t think my parents realized that. I think they were taking the path of least resistance. We told you to do it. You said no, we’re going to threaten to whack you on the ass and now problem solved. But it never occurred to my parents that this debate had value. They only saw the debate as disrespect. And the therapist was able to say, look, discussing something with your children is not back talking and it’s not them being disrespectful. It’s them learning to use their voice and articulate their wants and needs. I think that was a big game changer for my dad. Again, I’m sure that their experiences are going to be much different from mine. But I really felt like in those sessions was the first time that my parents actually heard me, heard my words, rather than just saw it as a behavioral problem, that I had the audacity to question them.

Lisa: You’ve told me in the past that your parents’ style of parenting changed dramatically once they took you to a child psychologist

Gabe: Yeah, yes.

Lisa: In part because the psychologist gave them all sorts of new advice and, frankly, told them that a lot of what they were doing was either wrong or at least not working. That they started taking parenting classes, that they just made these huge changes in how they treated you and your siblings once they had this information.

Gabe: One of the things that my parents learned, and it’s really one of the only examples that I have that my mom told me when I was an actual teenager because she told everybody that she could find. It was don’t trick your kids, the don’t set your kids up to fail concept. And the example that she always used is if you know that your child didn’t go to Molly’s house, even though they said to go to Molly’s house, when they come home, don’t say where have you been and set them up to lie. When they come home, say, I know you didn’t go to Molly’s house, get it right out of the way, and that this setting up your children to lie is just exacerbating the problem. Your kids are going to mess up. They’ve already messed up. You’ve already got a problem. Just address the problem that you have. Don’t create new ones. This made a profound impact on my mother. So much so that she just told everybody that she could find. And again, I learned that when I was a teenager, that’s how big of a deal it made to her, that she talked about it openly in front of her kid.

Lisa: Because most of the things that changed for them, they did not discuss with you until many, many years later when you were an adult. There was a lot going on behind the scenes that you didn’t know about.

Gabe: Yes, one of the things that I learned as an adult is that my parents actually asked the therapist if they were bad parents. I was not in the room, obviously. It was, for those who have not been to family counseling, they talk to the child alone. They talk to the parents alone. Then they talk to you all together. And one of the things that my parents just flat out asked is, are we bad parents? And do you know what kind of humility?

Lisa: Yeah, that must have been difficult for them.

Gabe: It takes to be able to sit in a room with a doctor or a therapist and ask honestly, are we bad parents? And then sit quietly and wait for the answer? If you would have asked me at 15 if my parents had any doubt that they were awesome, I would have been like, no, they’re awful. They don’t give a shit. But they actually had this self-doubt, this care and concern. I did not know at the time that they were capable of that because after all, I just saw them as this overarching force that got to make all the rules and had all the power. When in actuality they were struggling.

Lisa: And they did not let you know how much they were struggling and how much they changed in response to this,

Gabe: Yeah, yeah, I had no idea.

Lisa: When you’ve talked to me about this in the past, you’ve always described things as getting a lot a lot better after you started going to family therapy. But of course, things certainly were not perfect and it didn’t really work in that you continued to struggle. You continued to be extremely symptomatic and got in all sorts of trouble, dropped out of high school, just on and on and on. Does that mean it didn’t work or does that mean that just, hey, you were still bipolar?

Gabe: This is where my dad is very angry, my dad believes very strongly that the child psychologist should have realized that I had bipolar disorder and diagnosed me with it and got me help before I really got into a lot of trouble. We have spent a lot of time, my family and I, my father and I, debating and discussing this point. For what it’s worth, I understand why my dad wishes that I would have gotten help sooner. He’s not wrong. And I understand his frustration because he’s like, look, I did everything I could.

Lisa: Right, what more was I supposed to do?

Gabe: Right, but 15-year olds just weren’t diagnosed with bipolar disorder back then, they’re not really diagnosed with bipolar disorder now. I don’t blame the child psychologist for not diagnosing me. I’ve thought about this a lot. I’ve gone back and forth a lot. And I am 100% confident that diagnosing me with the information that he had with what he heard from my parents and what he saw would have been wholly irresponsible and would lead to way more false positives than it would actual positives. So, I want to say that very, very clearly. But yeah, my dad is still frankly, he’s pissed about it. It comes up pretty much once a holiday.

Lisa: Well, but again, that just isn’t how it was done at the time.

Gabe: Yes. But to your question, yes, things got a lot better. But of course, the underlying issue of bipolar disorder was not actually resolved. The grandiose thinking, the demons under the bed, the anger, the mania, the depression. My parents started doing things better and having more patience and more understanding and moving forward in a much healthier way. But ultimately, if you don’t rectify the core problem, you’re sort of handcuffed on how much better you can do.

Lisa: So things got better, but obviously were not fixed or completely cured because certainly your parents’ behavior towards you might have made things worse, but you weren’t behaving like this because of their parenting, you were behaving like this because you were bipolar.

Gabe: Yeah, I was still an untreated bipolar. That’s probably an oversimplification, but it’s more correct than it’s incorrect.

Lisa: But at the time, you were very angry with your parents and thought that they were doing a terrible job, and you continued to think that for a long, long time, right? When did that stop?

Gabe: When I reached recovery with bipolar disorder, I started to see life very differently and I started to see the world very differently. And when I was on my second divorce, Lisa, which was ours, the world looked really differently, too. Like it was it was much more difficult to be an egotistical, arrogant person facing my second divorce and facing rebuilding my life from the bipolar diagnosis. And I had messed up so many things that some of the arrogance of, oh, I’m better than you went away. I realized that a lot of what happened to my parents wasn’t an example of them being idiots. It was an example of circumstance and them being idiots. I, I.

Lisa: There were mitigating circumstances.

Gabe: I did not see any of those mitigating circumstances when I was a kid. Some of the things that really gave me a great amount of pause was spending more time with young children. You know, young children are difficult. I’m going to go with difficult. I started mentoring a teenager. And the stuff that would come out of his mouth in the four or five hours that we would spend together were frankly, just like, what is wrong with you? What are you? What? And then I would reflect back on me doing the exact same thing to my parents. And then the more I understood about my illness and it occurred to me once I reached recovery that my perspective was skewed by symptomology, my perspective was skewed by bipolar disorder. The way that I was remembering the story is incorrect. I would always say me and my dad got in an argument, but in reality, that’s not what happened. What happened was, is my dad got in an argument with a person with untreated bipolar disorder experiencing grandiose thinking, bipolar rage, who was actively delusional. That’s a very different memory. And what, of course, was even worse is that neither one of us knew. I thought that I was perfectly fine and had 100% complete control of my faculties. And my dad thought that he was in an argument with his teenage son who was being a brat. The situation that we thought that it was was not the situation that it actually was. That changes things, changes things dramatically.

Lisa: In the spirit of the original question, though, that’s how you felt once you were in recovery or that’s how you feel now. How did you feel at the time you were diagnosed?

Gabe: That they did it, it was their fault.

Lisa: Ok, so you had a lot of anger still

Gabe: Yes,

Lisa: By the time you were diagnosed

Gabe: Yes.

Lisa: And it was this process of reaching recovery that helped you get rid of a lot of that.

Gabe: And here’s the sick part, right? I was so angry at them. I was so angry at them for letting me languish and not getting me help, they’re my parents. It’s their job. But I called them five times a day from the hospital.

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: I still wanted my mommy. That’s all I can say. I, it was both my mother’s fault and I wanted her so desperately. And my parents, as you know, they came later after I got out of the hospital and they helped me move. There was a lot going on in my life, etc. And they like swooped in and solved all of these problems for me while I largely sat in the corner crying. And I was still pissed at them as I was watching them carry my stuff.

Lisa: As they were fixing your life, you were still angry.

Gabe: Yeah, because they messed me up.

Lisa: And at this point you were an adult with your own home, etc.

Gabe: I was twenty-five. Yeah, I was going through my first divorce. Isn’t it great that we can, you know, chop up Gabe’s life into wives?

Lisa: Yeah, yeah.

Gabe: Like those were during the Megan years. Those were during the Lisa years. Now we’re in the Kendall years.

Lisa: But those are the years that will never end.

Gabe: I know. I mean, I know.

Lisa: So, your parents at the time you were diagnosed, they’re falling over themselves to help you, you needed a lot of help because you were a wreck, but you were still extremely angry and your relationship was difficult.

Gabe: It was, but there was. There was some moments and I didn’t realize how amazing they were at the time.

Lisa: Even adult children are selfish when it comes to their parents. You just feel like they kind of owe you.

Gabe: I was a jackass, I was moving out of the house, it was the house that my first wife and I lived in and I was moving into an apartment. That has a whole long back story. But let’s just describe it as a shithole.

Lisa: It wasn’t that bad.

Gabe: It was pretty bad, especially moving out of a real nice house.

Lisa: It was a nice house,

Gabe: Come on.

Lisa: It was a very nice house.

Gabe: And they had got me all moved in and I was at the corner of the apartment building just kind of trying to stand out of the way and hide.

Lisa: As they did all the manual labor.

Gabe: As they did all the manual labor, while I did nothing. I should probably point out, you know, at this point, my dad is like 60, and my grandfather, who was like 70 at the time.

Lisa: So the healthy 25-year-old stands off to the side so that he can watch his elderly relatives assist him with manual labor.

Gabe: I think they would both object to being called elderly, but, yes, that is that is correct. But there’s, there’s moments in this mess. One, nobody ever yelled at me for this. They just did it. So, I just want to put you in the mindset of my father, who has literally worked all day on this stuff. And I’m standing at the corner of the apartment building because I you know, I don’t want them to see me cry or be upset. I don’t even know why I was hiding. And my dad comes over and asked me if I’m OK. And I’m like, you know, yeah, I’m fine. And, you know, he’s kind of standing there. It’s kind of awkward. And I said, you know, I don’t, I don’t like it here. It’s not nice. And my dad looks at me and he said, Well, but this is just a footnote in your story. It’s not the end. You’ll be out of here before you know it. And then he just walked away.

Lisa: He’s just dropping wisdom and then leaves you in the dust.

Gabe: Yeah, like, literally, and I just, he, it was kind of a powerful moment because all I could think of was this is where I’m stuck. This is where I’m stuck. And my dad’s point was, no, this is just where you are. That’s a big difference. I do remember little things like this, but I didn’t know them at the time. I don’t want anybody to think that my life got dramatically better after my father said that or I didn’t spend the next, you know, four years fighting mental illness and I didn’t suffer a great deal. Or I still thought, you know, my parents are idiots, and they did this to me on and off. And we still struggled and had problems. But looking back now, they knew damn well I was pissed at them. They knew damn well that their son was an idiot. They knew and they were scared of bipolar disorder because it’s a terrifying illness. They didn’t know what to do and they had to drive 700 miles with old people to carry my shit. And yet here they are. Here they are. And I didn’t carry anything. I carried nothing. 

Lisa: Well, also, they both had responsibilities at home, they both still had jobs, your mother was caring for grandchildren and they dropped everything and drove to another state

Gabe: They did.

Lisa: To try to rescue you.

Gabe: I mean, when you say it that way.

Lisa: Yeah, well, to be fair, I did not see it that way at the time either. At that point, every story you’d ever told about your childhood was more horrifying than the last.

Gabe: Yeah.

Lisa: It was just constant horrifying. You told me this horrible story about how your mother actually knocked you unconscious once.

Gabe: Ah, the softball story.

Lisa: The way I heard this story is, Gabe was a teenager and was being difficult, as teenagers are wont to do, when his mother couldn’t take it anymore and threw a softball at his face, knocking him unconscious. And then you’re like, oh, Lisa, meet my mom. What? Oh, this will be great.

Gabe: You know what a fish story is.

Lisa: Ok, fair, fair.

Gabe: A fish story, of course, is true in that the person was fishing and the person did catch a fish, but the six-inch fish becomes a two-foot-long fish. The story is true. My mother did, in fact, throw a softball. And it did hit me and it knocked me down. Don’t I didn’t lose consciousness. I don’t and I don’t remember saying that, to be honest. I think that might have been inferred. But it doesn’t matter.

Lisa: You told me that you got fuzzy and that you had a terrible headache for the next couple of days, and I thought to myself, well, that’s a concussion.

Gabe: That’s, that could be true. But the devil’s in the details, right? Let’s get a little more of the scene. At this point, I would have been almost 17 years old. I weighed 400 pounds. I was six foot three. And I was screaming at my mother. I was just screaming at her, yelling every word that I could think of because, frankly, I was enraged. Now, remember, not only am I twice as big as my mother, a foot taller, I am also an untreated bipolar who is clearly symptomatic. And upon the yelling back and forth, my mother picked up a softball and threw it over my head. I want to be clear. I knew she threw it over my head at the time because I didn’t even duck.

Lisa: So she wasn’t throwing it at you.

Gabe: No, she wasn’t throwing it at me at all, of course not, but it hit the wall behind me and bounced off and hit me in the back of the head and it knocked me over. And at that point, I became even angrier and just left. I just got in the car and drove off.

Lisa: What did your mom do?

Gabe: I don’t remember. I don’t think she did anything at that point. Obviously, when you tell the story, hey, mom and son got in an argument. Mom lost her temper, threw softball. Yeah, my mom comes off really bad in that story. And I come off looking like the innocent child. When you tell the story, giant enraged man screams at woman. Woman defends herself by throwing softball above head that happens to make contact. Well, that starts to move the needle a little bit on culpability. I’m not defending my mother. She never should have thrown the softball. She doesn’t think she should have thrown the softball. Nobody thinks that she should have thrown the softball. What my mother should have done was walk away. And we know that now. But it’s a little bit unfair to hold my mom 100% accountable for the aftermath of dealing with somebody with untreated bipolar disorder. It’s a chaotic scene. Again, do not throw anything at your mentally ill loved ones. My mother was 100% wrong.

Lisa: Or any of your loved ones.

Gabe: Yeah, that’s, that’s a good point. Lisa.

Lisa: Wow.

Gabe: I am not advocating for throwing softballs at your children, but I am saying that.

Lisa: Or anyone outside the context of a softball game. I can’t believe I need to clarify this for you.

Gabe: Also, good advice. Can I make my point now?

Lisa: I just, whoa.

Gabe: Yes, this was obviously not my family’s finest moment, it was not my mother’s finest moment. But when you start to dig into the details a little bit, it’s a little more tragic from my mother’s perspective than I realized. I don’t know what she was thinking. I don’t know why she did it. I don’t know why she lost her temper. I don’t know what was going through her head. It’s really easy to Monday morning quarterback now and say that that was a mistake, but

Lisa: Well, it was a mistake,

Gabe: It was.

Lisa: It’s just.

Gabe: But in the moment, hell, maybe that was her only move. It did, in fact, end the issue. I left. So, who knows? Maybe if she hadn’t thrown that thing. I can’t even speculate. I’m just. You know, sometimes things just happen that don’t turn out the best. And it’s not because your parents are bad. It’s because of a momentary lapse of reason or a mistake. I mean, Lisa, you got in a car accident. You don’t consider yourself a driver that needs to turn in your license or you would not drive for fear of killing yourself or others.

Lisa: I had heard this story about your mother. I heard it before I met her, and it definitely shaped my impression of your mother for a very long time. And it does not leave a positive impression of your mother. And it actually wasn’t until we were discussing this show last night and you started giving all of these other details, all of this further information, that I started thinking, huh, maybe that isn’t quite the situation I had initially thought, especially as you started saying, look, she was dealing with an untreated bipolar who was much bigger than her in a full on rage. Do you think she was scared? I mean, was she physically scared of you? Was she afraid that you would become violent?

Gabe: No, I don’t think so. I don’t think my mom thought that way at all. I do think that there was an element of her losing her temper. I think there was an element of her wanting to shake things up. I think there was an element of her wanting to break my thought pattern. You know, I was, I was just in this cycle. You’ve argued with me when I’ve been in this, it’s everything leads back to the same thing. No matter what you say, it’s

Lisa: You get on a loop and you can’t break out of it.

Gabe: And she broke that loop by throwing the softball.

Lisa: So you’re thinking that she just got so desperate and also who knows how long this had been going on?

Gabe: Yeah.

Lisa: That she just thought, oh, God, we got to do something here?

Gabe: And of course, in the moment, I was extraordinarily symptomatic, I was enraged. I was a person with untreated bipolar disorder. So, you’re asking me what happened? But the only memories that I have are heavily influenced by untreated bipolar disorder. So, you know, there’s got to be so much more that we are not taking into account here. But you’re right. When I was angry at my mother, I spun the story.

Lisa: But you didn’t realize you were doing it.

Gabe: I didn’t. I spun the story even for myself so that I could maintain my anger at my mother.

Lisa: There were a lot of extenuating circumstances to the problems you had when you were a teenager and looking back on it now, especially from a position of recovery, you’re willing to give your parents a lot more slack than you were when you were a teenager or even when you were diagnosed.

Gabe: A watershed moment for me, Lisa, was when I was in a support group and I started complaining about my parents and a couple of the people in the support group started talking about theirs. Their families had abandoned them, like literally one woman talked about how she hadn’t talked to her father in a decade and her mother was not allowed to talk to her, but opened up a private email account so that they could email a little bit. But her mother made it perfectly clear that your father is not on board with this and I will never meet you in public and I will not provide any help for you in any way. And other people talked about just horrific abandonment and name calling and.

Lisa: And abuse.

Gabe: Yeah, and I’m sitting there thinking, oh, I’m mad at my parents because they didn’t move me into my new place fast enough and of course, my parents made a ton of mistakes. And I want everybody to listening to this to know, ton of mistakes. I could write a book on all the mistakes that my parents made. But you know how you make mistakes. You’re there. You’ve got to be there. These other people, their parents made one mistake. They abandoned their kids. That’s it. That’s all they had. They abandoned their kids. Whereas my parents, they just kept trying shit. And the stuff that they tried was awful because they didn’t have, you know, guidance or understanding. And they thought that the myths of mental illness were real and on and on and on and on and on and on and on. But you have to be there in order to screw up. It never even occurred to me that my parents would leave. I like, I didn’t know that was possible, Lisa. I just, I did not know it was possible. I just. And you know what’s messed up about that? My biological father abandoned me when I was a baby, and it still didn’t occur to me that my mom and dad could abandon me. Like, what’s up with that? 

Lisa: If you haven’t listened to other episodes or know Gabe’s back story, your mother got pregnant with you in high school, she and your biological father had a shotgun wedding,

Gabe: Yeah,

Lisa: And within a year

Gabe: Yeah.

Lisa: Of your birth, he’d taken off never to be heard from again.

Gabe: Yeah.

Lisa: And eventually she met and married your father

Gabe: Who adopted me,

Lisa: Who adopted you.

Gabe: She met and married another man who adopted me as his own and is the only person I’ve ever known as Dad. But he is not my biological father, he’s just the man who raised me as if I were his own, which is hilarious because I’m six foot three, giant and have bright red hair and he’s like five foot three, tiny and has black hair. So, yeah, anybody that thinks that he’s my biological father is a moron.

Lisa: Your dad has some fun with that, too,

Gabe: He does.

Lisa: Because people will ask you all the time, where did you get that red hair? And he’ll go, Oh, he got it from his dad.

Gabe: My dad’s a dick.

Lisa: He just stares at them. Like, what?

Gabe: It is funny, it is funny to think about, but but yeah, it didn’t occur to me that people could lose their parents. I just, I thought that I was abandoning my parents because they were bad and I was punishing them. But I always knew that as soon as I forgave them, they’d come back. Like, you recognize that I keep saying that my parents did all of these things so horribly wrong, but the foundation that they built was that I knew that I could count on them 100%.

Lisa: To come and do the wrong things.

Gabe: Well, right, yes, yes,

Lisa: Right.

Gabe: I would judge them implicitly. This is why mental illness is so messed up. My parents are good people. I want to be very, very clear. But they believed all of the myths of mental illness. That really is the take away here. They believed the pop culture representation of mental illness. Mentally ill people aren’t smart. Mentally ill people don’t own houses. Mentally ill people don’t get married. Mentally ill people have bad parents, specifically bad mothers. It was a moral value. And why wouldn’t they? That’s all they were taught. That’s what they were taught growing up in their lives. That’s what I believed. That’s what pop culture, television shows, movies, that’s what it all showed. Mentally ill people were in a corner, rocking back and forth, drooling and violent and came from broken homes. I’m not mad at them anymore for not realizing that I was sick because society kind of set them up to fail in this way. It’s one of the reasons I became an advocate because I thought, you know, my parents love me.  They desperately tried to do the right thing at every single turn and they missed this glaring thing.

Lisa: Well, everybody missed it, including the professionals they took you to.

Gabe: Right, I want to talk to all of the people with mental health issues and mental illnesses who are mad at their families. Listen, I don’t know your families. There’s certainly toxic families. There are certain families that have done unforgivable things and on and on and on. I’m not pretending that every single family is my family. That is complete and utter nonsense. But I am saying that I realized along the way that my family was in the same impossible situation that I was in. So, it’s, I want people to forgive me for the things that I did when I was symptomatic. Why would I not forgive the people around me for the things that they did while I was symptomatic? I should be extending the same forgiveness to them that I want society and my family to extend to me. And I think that’s a very powerful message. Your circumstances pending. But then there’s sort of a shit or get off the pot mentality here. Look, you got to decide. If you’re not going to forgive your family, then cut them off and never talk to them again. Call it a day. Just, just don’t torture yourself. And if you want your family in your life, constantly reminding them of all the mistakes that they made five, 10, 15, 20 years ago is not the way to build a positive relationship moving forward. And that all ties back to your perfect quote, Lisa.

Lisa: You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending?

Gabe: Exactly, so with your family, you can’t go back and change the beginning, you can’t fix all of the things that your parents, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents have done. But if you make the decision right now to forgive them, radical acceptance, radical forgiveness, you can change the end. The reality is, is that my parents messed up. That’s fine. I messed up. That’s fine. I’d much rather talk about what we’re doing this Christmas than worry about what they did 20 Christmases ago.

Lisa: Well, and speaking of apologies or messing up, your parents have apologized to you.

Gabe: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, on video.

Lisa: Yeah, good point, your father especially was like, well, yeah, we just tried to punish the symptoms of bipolar disorder out of him and he feels very badly about that now, even though he couldn’t possibly have known.

Gabe: Yeah, and we did not get there overnight, my family and I didn’t have some Hallmark movie moment where music played and it started to snow and we all hugged each other and the camera panned away, showing the half a million-dollar house that we can afford on the kindergarten teacher’s salary. No, it didn’t work that way. We just started building new memories and that’s what we did. And as we started building new memories, the older memories sort of either faded away or became more in focus.

Lisa: But, Gabe, you do have happy memories from childhood.

Gabe: Aat the time that I first met you, Lisa, the answer to that question would have been no. I would have said no. I have no happy memories of childhood. But now, yes, because once I started looking at the entire picture, I realized that my parents can both have made a lot of mistakes and have done a lot of things right. I was very much in black and white thinking. Either my parents have to be all good or my parents have to be all bad. And at the time I met you all bad, all bad, 100% bad. They sucked.

Lisa: Yeah, it made it difficult. You have a much better relationship with your family and your parents now than you ever did when we were together, and it’s made a big difference for you. It’s brought you a lot of happiness.

Gabe: True that.

Lisa: And here you are changing the ending.

Gabe: Hey, next week, we should do you and your family.

Lisa: Oh, I would like that. I have a lot to say, and they’ll love it, too. So everybody wins.

Gabe: Yay! Thank you, everybody, for listening to this episode of the Not Crazy podcast. My name is Gabe Howard and I wrote the book, Mental Illness Is an Asshole, available on Amazon. But if you head over to gabehoward.com and buy the book there, not only will I sign it, but we’ll send you a bunch of Not Crazy podcast stickers. And that’s really awesome. You can put them on your car, your laptop, give them to your friends. And remember, wherever you downloaded this podcast, please subscribe. Also, use your words and rate it. Write a review, give us as many stars as possible and tell all your friends.

Lisa: Don’t forget the outtake after the credits and we’ll be back next Tuesday.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Not Crazy Podcast from Psych Central. For free mental health resources and online support groups, visit PsychCentral.com. Not Crazy’s official website is PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy. To work with Gabe, go to gabehoward.com. Want to see Gabe and me in person?  Not Crazy travels well. Have us record an episode live at your next event. E-mail show@psychcentral.com for details. 

 The post Understanding a Dysfunctional Childhood first appeared on World of Psychology.

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Podcast: Large Family Beset by Schizophrenia

In today’s show, Gabe talks with Robert Kolker, author of the New York Times bestselling — and Oprah’s book club pick — book Hidden Valley Road. This non-fiction biography is the true story of a mid-century American family besieged by schizophrenia. Of their 12 children, 6 struggled with the severe mental disorder. 

Join us for the incredible story of the family who became science’s greatest hope in the quest to understand schizophrenia.

SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW

  Guest information for ‘Robert Kolker- Large Family Schizophrenia’ Podcast Episode

Robert Kolker is the author of Hidden Valley Road (2020), an instant #1 New York Times best-seller and Oprah’s Book Club selection; and Lost Girls (2013), also a New York Times best-seller and Times Notable Book, as well as one of Publisher’s Weekly’s Top Ten Books of the year and Slate’s best non-fiction books of the last 25 years. He is a National Magazine Award finalist whose journalism has appeared in New York magazine, Bloomberg Businessweek, Wired, and The New York Times Magazine.

    About The Psych Central Podcast Host

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author. To learn more about Gabe, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

Computer Generated Transcript for ‘Robert Kolker- Large Family Schizophrenia’ Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: You’re listening to the Psych Central Podcast, where guest experts in the field of psychology and mental health share thought-provoking information using plain, everyday language. Here’s your host, Gabe Howard.

Gabe Howard: Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week’s episode of The Psych Central Podcast, I’m your host Gabe Howard, and calling into our show today, we have Robert Kolker. Robert is the author of Hidden Valley Road, which was an instant number one New York Times best seller and Oprah’s Book Club selection. He is a National Magazine Awards finalist whose journalism has appeared in Wired and The New York Times Magazine. Bob, welcome to the show.

Robert Kolker: Hi, Gabe, I’m really glad to talk to you today.

Gabe Howard: Your book is nonfiction. It’s a true story. I’m going to read from Amazon right now the description, the heart rendering story of a mid-century American family with 12 children, six of them diagnosed with schizophrenia, that became science’s greatest hope in the quest to understand the disease. Let’s talk first about how you did the research for this book. You met the Galvin family.

Robert Kolker: That’s right, my career really took shape at New York magazine, where I’ve written dozens of cover stories and feature stories about everyday people going through extraordinary situations. I really am drawn to the stories of people who manage crises and come through difficulties. I find it inspiring and I’m always looking for a deeper issue running at the bottom of it. And so when I met the Galvin family, I was amazed. This is a family that’s been through so much, so much misfortune and also so many challenges and so much scientific mystery. Medical mystery. I first met the two sisters they’re the youngest in the family. There were 12 children. They’re the only girls and they now are in their 50s. But when they were children, six of their 10 brothers had been diagnosed with schizophrenia. The family immediately became interesting to scientists and researchers who were trying to get to the genetic roots of the disease. But before that happened, there was a tremendous amount of denial, a lot of stigma that forced the family into the shadows. And so it became clear that by telling their story, maybe we could inspire the general public to sort of remove some of that stigma from mental illness, particularly acute mental illness like schizophrenia, which so many people still have difficulty talking about. 

Gabe Howard: And to anchor this in time, they were diagnosed in the 70s, this was I’m horribly bad at math, but they were diagnosed 50 years ago, so there was even more stigma, more discrimination, less understanding. It was harder to get diagnosed.

Robert Kolker: Absolutely, and also more of a reason to hide, because so many people in the establishment were blaming the families themselves for the mental illness, blaming bad parenting, in particular, blaming bad mothering. And then, of course, the medical treatments, the pharmaceutical treatments were blunter and more extreme back then. And they were just coming out of the period of lobotomies and shock therapy, the insulin coma therapies, all sorts of drastic treatments which are now so questionable. 

Gabe Howard: Now, the parents are Don and Mimi Galvin, they’re mom and dad, did mom and dad have schizophrenia or any mental illness or was it just their children?

Robert Kolker: They did not have schizophrenia and neither did anyone in their immediate families, and I think part of the mystery of this book is how does schizophrenia get inherited? Because we now are certain that there is a genetic component to schizophrenia, but we don’t know exactly how it is inherited. It’s not parent to child. It’s not recessive. It’s not like you need two people with schizophrenia to produce a child with schizophrenia. It kind of wanders and meanders through families in a very tricky way. And there was a lot of hope pinned on this family that they would help shed a little light on that mystery as well.

Gabe Howard: What were some of the most surprising things that you learned about mental illness and what really schizophrenia from your time interviewing the Galvin’s?

Robert Kolker: I was surprised by almost everything, but my biggest surprises were that my understanding of mental illness was that it was about brain chemistry and that great pharmaceutical drugs were coming online, that through trial and error and a lot of work perhaps would be able to correct your brain chemistry problem. And then whatever you had, whether it was anxiety or depression or even bipolar disorder, that it would be corrected and that you would become essentially cured, although cured is really the wrong kind of word for it.

Gabe Howard: Being in like remission or recovery.

Robert Kolker: Right, what I learned was that schizophrenia, this isn’t really true at all, that the drugs that they have, the antipsychotic drugs that are very popular, that are prescribed so much for schizophrenia, they are basically the same drugs that have been prescribed for 50 years. They may have different names, but they derive from the same classifications of typical neuroleptics or atypical neuroleptics, and that these drugs are essentially symptom suppressors. They might help a person control their hallucinations or delusions, or it might make a patient less erratic and more manageable as a patient in a health care setting. But it doesn’t turn back the clock. It doesn’t necessarily add the functionality. They really are just sort of good enough in terms of controlling the population, but not really the miracles that we look at when we talk about antidepressants, for instance. And that was a huge surprise.

Gabe Howard: It sounds like that you didn’t know a lot about schizophrenia before you started working on this book, is that true?

Robert Kolker: That’s right. I mean, I knew enough to know that it didn’t mean split personality and multiple personality, which is like the big misnomer that because of the way we use the word schizo, there’s a Latin root which refers to a split. But really, it was meant to mean a split between reality and one’s perception of reality. A person with schizophrenia tends to wall themselves off from what is commonly accepted as reality. First, a little bit and then a lot. And sometimes that means delusions. Sometimes that means hallucinations, and sometimes it means being catatonic. Sometimes it means being paranoid. And in fact, that was the other huge surprise for me for schizophrenia, which was that it isn’t really a disease at all. It is a classification. It is a syndrome. It’s a collection of symptoms that we have given a name. And I don’t mean to sound too nebulous or mystical in talking about there is such a thing as schizophrenia. It’s just that it may be several different things and that 40 years from now we might have removed the word schizophrenia from our lexicon and we might have decided that it’s really six different brain disorders with six discrete types of symptoms. And we have found ways to treat those six different conditions differently. That was another huge surprise to me.

Gabe Howard: When doing your research for the book, obviously you spoke to the family. Did you also speak with medical doctors and schizophrenia researchers and people in the medical field?

Robert Kolker: Yes, absolutely. My initial conversations were with the family themselves, who, after many years of difficulty, were ready to come forward and talk about everything that happened to their family in a very deep and profound way. But of course, in the back of my mind, I was thinking, well, how special is this family? For all I know, there might be a thousand families with lots of kids where half of them have schizophrenia. This might happen all the time. So I did an immediate round of checking, talking to major figures in scholarship of schizophrenia and the history of science, but also in the treatment of schizophrenia. And just to say, have you heard of this family? What would you say if I told you a family like this existed? How typical do you think it is? Do you know the doctors who have treated this family? Because I knew their names as well. Are those doctors on the level or are they quacks and everything really checked out that this is a family that is definitely unusual, extraordinarily so in terms of the numbers. They were an important family to study for their time, and they did help move the ball forward in a genuinely valid way and an inspiring way. So there’s a lot of hope in this story as well.

Gabe Howard: Are there many families that have that many children with half of them being diagnosed with really any severe and persistent mental illness or even just schizophrenia?

Robert Kolker: This is a big question that I pursue in the book itself, because Lynn DeLisi, one of the researchers who studied this family, was actually a collector of genetic material of what she called multiplex families, which is families with more than one, perhaps many instances of severe mental illness, not just among siblings, but maybe parents and aunts and uncles and grandparents. She made it her job in the 1980s and 90s was to collect data on as many multiplexed families as possible. So they’re out there. But even in that world, the Galvin family’s extreme. It’s hard for anyone to think of any other family with 12 children where six of them had this diagnosis. They are really, really unlikely. Then if you add on to that the complicating factor of such a family getting noticed by science and not being cast to the winds, not having people end up homeless or the family falling apart or everybody descending into addiction or suicide.

Gabe Howard: I know that you went through a lot of records and you did a lot of research and you learned a lot, you just said that you knew the doctor’s names, who diagnosed the boys. What was that like? I mean, just I don’t know what medical records looked like in the 70s, but I know that medical records in 2020 aren’t exactly what we would call. I’m going to go with legible. Was this a difficult thing to get a hold of medical records 50 years old and try to decipher them?

Robert Kolker: The ones that still survive mostly come from the state hospital in Colorado, where so many of the brothers cycled in and out, those all still existed and they are sitting there on paper in accordion folders. And those folders are all stacked up. And they were wheeled into a room where I and Lindsay Galvin Rauch, the youngest Galvin child, sat and waited. And there were two huge carts with folders spilling out. And we spent as much time as we could going through every page, scanning what we could, reading what we could. It was kind of a Raiders of the Lost Ark moment where you see at the end with all the warehouse filled with boxes, suddenly I saw there was this wealth of information. And yes, a lot of it is a little too clinical. But then there are things like the notes from the College Health Services Office where Donald Galvin was a regular back when he was in college in the mid-60s with written reports in handwriting saying that he ran into a bonfire and wasn’t sure why or got into an altercation with a cat and was bitten by a cat and wouldn’t say exactly what happened there. Lots of information that was really quite provocative and quite tantalizing and help tell a story really about a young man who was becoming a stranger to himself and not really knowing exactly what was happening to him and being afraid to talk with anyone about it.

Gabe Howard:  Hang on, we’ll be back after these messages.

Sponsor Message: Gabe here and I wanted to tell you about Psych Central’s other podcast that I host, Not Crazy. It’s straight talk about the world of mental illness and it is hosted by me and my ex-wife. You should check it out at PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy or your favorite podcast player.

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Gabe Howard: We’re back talking with the author of Hidden Valley Road, Robert Kolker.  During your research, was there anything that struck you as incredible or interesting or provocative that didn’t make it into the book? I imagine that not every story or every tangent can fit into a book. 

Robert Kolker: This is first and foremost a family story. It’s an intra generational family saga where you get to know the parents and the life they were leading and the plans they had and the type of parents they were and the reasons why they had so many children. And then you see the children start to grow up and go through changes and then the worst happens and the illness strikes that by the time you’re done with the book, you’ve traveled with this family for many, many decades, the same way you would have if you read a book like one of the great family sagas like East of Eden or something. That was what I was aspiring to the science in there. I tried to weave in in the most seamless way possible so that it didn’t feel like eating your vegetables, it didn’t feel like homework. And so while there are some really provocative and interesting scientific passages in this book, there are elements of psychiatry that are not relevant to the Galvin’s that are definitely in the cutting room floor.

Gabe Howard: Can you give us an example of that?

Robert Kolker: Yeah, there’s the whole notion of anti-psychiatry, which I maybe put in a page, but during the 60s and 70s, it was especially popular. It was this notion that the people who are who most people would call insane, maybe the only sane people in the world, and that mental illness is actually a myth. It’s a construct and that psychiatrists are the new priests and psychiatry has replaced religion. And it’s about imposing social norms on nonconformists. I guess the most mainstream manifestation of anti-psychiatry is One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, which is essentially a metaphor for a repressive society trying to pound out an iconoclast. I only was able to flick at that. But there are several amazing books written on that subject and you can certainly really get very, very arcane talking about the nature of mental illness and how much society’s definition of it has really created it in our world.

Gabe Howard: It’s fascinating because anti-psychiatry or psychiatric survivors, as they’ve sort of rebranded as, is still around today in different iterations. So it’s interesting to me that this was also a thing apparently in the 60s and 70s. It’s a variation of a theme. Right. This isn’t real, even though people are suffering from it.

Robert Kolker: Right, and in anti-psychiatry, to me, the big thing that Star is the families like the Goblin’s was concerned was that it’s one thing to write a provocative book wondering about the nature of mental illness and whether we’ve created it. And it’s quite another thing to look at six sick boys in a family of 12 who are really in need of help right now and wonder, well, what do we do to help them? Regardless, they need to be helped. The practical aspect of it really is what I was drawn to. But I just want to say very quickly, I don’t want to be dismissive of anti-psychiatry in general. And certainly, there is a hearing voices movement now that is very helpful. And there is data to suggest that that delusional mental illness may not be something that is just exclusive to people who have schizophrenia, that that a large percentage of us have perhaps had an auditory or even a visual hallucination in our lives and more than one perhaps that this sort of thing exists on a spectrum and that you shouldn’t necessarily be stigmatizing anybody who’s going through it or even trying to brand them in any way.

Gabe Howard: I’m often fascinated, especially as the host of this podcast, I get to talk to a lot of people. You know, some people believe that mental illness is absolutely 100 percent real. And everything that we understand about it is everything that there is to understand and will be. All there ever is to understand. And medical science is perfect in every way. And of course, other people go the other way and they say it’s a construct. It’s all made up. None of it’s real. It’s all in our heads. We should leave people be we’re just trying to be controlled. And what I have learned through, you know, research and talking to so many people is that the answer is really in the middle. Any medical establishment that says that they’re 100 percent perfect and we know what to do. As you’ve alluded to in the show, it’s not perfect. We don’t know what in 40 years, schizophrenia may be called. Something completely different, I believe, was your exact quote. And over on the other end, it’s absolutely real. As you said, just talking about the Galvin family, they suffered greatly, which, of course, caused their siblings to suffer and their family members to suffer. I can see why that would be an attractive thing and an attractive discussion to put in the book. I’m excited talking about it right now, but of course, it is a distraction from the Galvin family. And that sort of leads me to my next question. When I think of being distracted from the Galvin family, I am sort of rubbernecking and I’m fascinated by just the horrors that this family must have seen. But you really described the family as very hopeful. I believe your exact words are the family’s story has so many elements of hope. And I’m sitting here like I’m not seeing them. Can you explain that?

Robert Kolker: I’m laughing because in the years that I was working on this book, my friends and acquaintances would say, so what are you working on? And I’d say, I’m working on a book about a family with 12 children and six of them had schizophrenia. And then they would turn white. And I would say, but there’s a lot of hope in the book that really is you got to believe me. But I can say in a couple of ways it’s hopeful. The first is that there were two teams of researchers that studied the Galvin family back in the 80s and took genetic material. And part of this book is the story of those two different teams, led by two different researchers and their various ups and downs, trying to find more meaning in the disease, trying to find patterns of heredity until finally the Human Genome Project throws them a curve ball and, in some ways, hurts and in some ways helps the effort until finally, we have some breakthroughs in 2015 and 2016. Each of those teams moves the ball forward in our understanding of the illness and potentially significant ways. So I knew that the story was going to have that kind of hopeful ending by the end. I was excited about that. Secondly, there’s a sense of how far we’ve come. When the first of the boys was getting sick back in the 60s, the family really had a choice. They could send their son in for treatment to a place that essentially was blaming the family for mental illness, saying bad mothering caused it. They called it the schizophrenia genic mother, and that was erroneous and has been disproven, but it really dominated psychotherapy for decades. The idea of the schizophrenia genic mother causing schizophrenia.

Gabe Howard: And in fairness, it’s a myth that is still around today. It still comes up 50 years later.

Robert Kolker: Yeah, for sure, and I think it’s because we have this nature nurture conversation about acute mental illness, we wonder is all of it inherited or are you just inheriting a vulnerability that then gets triggered by the environment? So maybe, maybe your bad mother did trigger your genetic vulnerability or maybe it was marijuana or maybe it was cat litter? Yeah, there are all sorts of theories about what might be environmental triggers be. So the family had this up against them and then the other way to go would be to institutionalize them, to send the son away and perhaps doom them to a future where they are medicated into a stupor or perhaps even lobotomized or definitely given various shock therapies. So these were horrible choices. Whereas today, if a teenage boy or girl is having early signs of acute mental illness, the hopeful thing about the story is we see how much has changed that if they’re lucky enough to have half decent health care coverage, there’s early intervention, there is family support. There are things that just didn’t exist before. So that part to me is hopeful as well.

Gabe Howard: That all does sound very hopeful, and as somebody who is diagnosed with bipolar disorder, which I want to be clear, is not the same as schizophrenia, but it’s still a severe and persistent mental illness that needs understanding and research and has some commonalities. I like the idea that research has evolved so that when I needed care, it was there. Did it work? Do we understand schizophrenia better because of the Galvin family?

Robert Kolker: There is one team in Colorado led by Dr. Robert Freedman, who is still there at the University of Colorado Hospital. He became the first researcher he and his team to identify a specific gene that was a player in schizophrenia called ceRNA-7. This is back in the late 1990s before the Human Genome Project came on board. And he’s been trying to find ways to manipulate and rectify the issues regarding that part of the brain and that gene interplays. He’s been working on that for years. He’s come up with a possible way to strengthen brain health in utero with a prenatal vitamin, with a substance called choline. Choline is a natural nontoxic substance that you can get at the vitamin shop or the GNC. His theory is that expectant mothers can strengthen the brain health of their children by taking choline.  And not only that, if their child happens to have a genetic predisposition to perhaps developing schizophrenia or another acute mental illness, it’s very possible that choline will hit the brain receptor that he’s been targeting all this time and actually prevent some of those symptoms and perhaps prevent the condition entirely. Now, this is a theory and it’s being tested in a longitudinal study right now. It’s very promising. 

Robert Kolker: And it’s the Galvin family and his work with them back in the 80s that led to a long and winding road that led to this advancement. The other team is in Massachusetts, and this is a researcher named Lynn DeLisi, and she was with the National Institute of Mental Health in Washington. And now she’s in Massachusetts. And she teamed up with Amgen Pharmaceutical company to analyze the genome of the Galvin’s after years and years of doing her own work on the subject. And they identified another gene, this one called SHANK2. And they hope that by looking at what SHANK2 specifically does in the brain, that this might be a pathway that will help us understand exactly how schizophrenia takes shape in the brain.

Gabe Howard: Let’s say that the Galvin boys became symptomatic in 2020, if the same thing happened to the family today, how would their story be different? What would play out differently in 2020 versus how it played out in the 60s and 70s?

Robert Kolker: Some things would be completely opposite. Back then, they would blame the family and let’s say the 15-year-old Donald Galvin first displaying some problems, they would say, let’s separate him from the family and take him away so that we doctors can work on him. Today, the opposite would happen. They would say, how can we set up a situation where we can support the family at the same time as we’re supporting this kid and make sure that everyone is getting the help that they need? That’s one thing. The second thing is we understand now that early intervention is crucial, that with every psychotic break a person has, the harder it is for them to recover and the more likely it is they’ll have more in the future. Donald Galvin had his first signs of mental illness when he was about 15 or 16. And the psychotic break that brought him to the state hospital for the first time didn’t happen until he was twenty-five years old. So imagine nine or 10 years’ worth of psychotic episodes that could have been tempered or prevented if he had gotten early intervention. 

Gabe Howard: This entire story is incredible. How did you first become aware of this family?

Robert Kolker: The youngest Galvin family child, Lindsay, went to high school with one of my oldest and dearest friends, who also was an editor of mine at New York magazine for many years, and my friend knew about the Galvin family story just over the years when he was in high school with Lindsay. He didn’t hear about it because Lindsay wasn’t going to be talking about her family with anybody. But then as he stayed friendly with her over the years, he started to hear more and more and sort of got the gist. And then one day, Lindsay and her older sister Margaret came to him. This is in like twenty sixteen and said we’ve been trying to find a way to help the world know about our family, and we’ve been trying to think about the best way to do it for years. We thought about a memoir, but as the youngest members of our family, we don’t have an immediate understanding of what our oldest siblings went through. We haven’t been able to look at the medical records yet. Telling the story is involves the perspectives of way too many people and there’s a lot of medical information. My friend thought of me immediately because I had written about families in crisis before. My first book is called Lost Girls, and it’s about the families of five women who are all victims related in the same unsolved murder case out here in New York City, the Long Island serial killer case.

Robert Kolker: And it takes a close look at the families themselves and their difficulties. A very human story and I hope a very compassionate one. I seemed to be the right fit for this family. And that’s how I first contacted them. Now, my initial reaction was that it was going to be an impossible story to tell two parents, one of whom was deceased, 12 children, three of whom were deceased, weaving in all of their perspectives, writing about the mentally ill siblings as intimately as you possibly can so that they’re not monsters, understanding all the medical stuff that was going on, and most of all, making sure that there wasn’t going to be one family member who would stand up and say, I don’t want my medical information published in a book, which we all know there are HIPPA laws in this country where your medical privacy is yours. So I proceeded very slowly and I told the sisters that we all would know one way or another after a couple of months just how doable this would be.

Robert Kolker: And after three or so months, everybody seemed ready to do it, that it had been so many decades since the most difficult things in the family had happened that people were ready, and also that the two sisters, as the youngest ones, had really been through so much and really have been on the receiving end of so many of the traumas in the family that the older siblings all sort of deferred to them and said, well, if they want to do this, I’m not going to stop them. To me, it was an amazing opportunity and I really didn’t look back. Once everyone was ready, I really hopped aboard and worked full time on it.

Gabe Howard: Bob, without giving away the ending, where is the family now?

Robert Kolker: Most of them are still in Colorado, and to me, that’s the most amazing thing. There was sexual abuse in this family. There was clergy abuse, there was a murder suicide. My question to the two sisters and to everyone in the family is, why are you still a family? Why didn’t you the second you went to college, just sort of leave and never come back, let go change your name. But these two sisters are back in Colorado and they were involved in the care of their family. One of them is the main caretaker for the surviving mentally ill sons who are still alive. They came back to their family on their own terms. And I wanted to tell that story as well about families and how they stay together. I think a lot of us can relate to a story like that.

Gabe Howard: The name of the book is Hidden Valley Road. The author is Robert Kolker. Where can you find you and your book?

Robert Kolker: My website is Robert Kolker.com, the book is everywhere. I’m thrilled, thanks to Oprah Winfrey, that it’s gotten immense visibility and helps people understand this family better.

Gabe Howard: I highly recommend checking it out. Thank you, Bob, so much for being here.

Robert Kolker: Thank you, Gabe, it’s a real pleasure.

Gabe Howard: Thank you, everybody, for listening. My name is Gabe Howard and I am the author of Mental Illness Is an Asshole, which is available on Amazon, or you can get a signed copy, and hey, I include stickers with the podcast logo. Your laptop needs a sticker and it’s less money and I’ll even sign the book over at gabehoward.com. Remember, we have the super-secret Facebook page at PsychCentral.com/FBShow. Wherever you downloaded this podcast, please subscribe. Also, take a minute to write a review. Let people know why they should listen in. And remember, you can get one week of free, convenient, affordable, private online counseling any time anywhere, simply by visiting BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral. We will see everybody next week.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to The Psych Central Podcast. Want your audience to be wowed at your next event? Feature an appearance and LIVE RECORDING of the Psych Central Podcast right from your stage! For more details, or to book an event, please email us at show@psychcentral.com. Previous episodes can be found at PsychCentral.com/Show or on your favorite podcast player. Psych Central is the internet’s oldest and largest independent mental health website run by mental health professionals. Overseen by Dr. John Grohol, Psych Central offers trusted resources and quizzes to help answer your questions about mental health, personality, psychotherapy, and more. Please visit us today at PsychCentral.com.  To learn more about our host, Gabe Howard, please visit his website at gabehoward.com. Thank you for listening and please share with your friends, family, and followers.

  The post Podcast: Large Family Beset by Schizophrenia first appeared on World of Psychology.

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[erraticfairy]

Podcast: Is Happiness a Choice?

Are you sad? Just be happy! Does this irritate you? In today’s show, Gabe and Lisa ponder whether happiness really is a choice — especially for people who struggle with mental illness. How do we measure happiness? And what is happiness inflation?

Join us for an in-depth conversation on whether or not people can actually choose happiness.

(Transcript Available Below)

Please Subscribe to Our Show: And We Love Written Reviews! 

About The Not Crazy podcast Hosts

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from Gabe Howard. To learn more, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

        Lisa is the producer of the Psych Central podcast, Not Crazy. She is the recipient of The National Alliance on Mental Illness’s “Above and Beyond” award, has worked extensively with the Ohio Peer Supporter Certification program, and is a workplace suicide prevention trainer. Lisa has battled depression her entire life and has worked alongside Gabe in mental health advocacy for over a decade. She lives in Columbus, Ohio, with her husband; enjoys international travel; and orders 12 pairs of shoes online, picks the best one, and sends the other 11 back.

    Computer Generated Transcript for “Happiness a Choice” Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Lisa: You’re listening to Not Crazy, a psych central podcast hosted by my ex-husband, who has bipolar disorder. Together, we created the mental health podcast for people who hate mental health podcasts.

Gabe: Hey, everyone, and welcome to the Not Crazy podcast, I’m your host Gabe Howard, and with me, as always, is Lisa Kiner. Lisa, I’m inviting you to speak right now so that you know that it is your turn. This comes up more than you think when Lisa doesn’t know when she can talk. I do take some responsibility for this because, you know, I’m a talker, Lisa.

Lisa: You’re going to have to redo that, because I won’t be able to edit that because you slurred it into your words.

Gabe: I wanted you to, I wanted you to leave that there.

Lisa: Why would I leave that there?

Gabe: Because it’s funny.

Lisa: Uh-huh, it’s not that funny.

Gabe: I thought it was funny, plus I’m picking on you. I think it’s good. We’re supposed to fight more.

Lisa: We’re supposed to fight. Wait a minute. What? I’m sorry, I didn’t listen the last part. Why are we supposed to fight more?

Gabe: People like the debate, they like the acrimony, they like the frenemies, we’ve been accused of getting along too well. We haven’t created enough drama.

Lisa: Really?

Gabe: Yes.

Lisa: Someone actually said that?

Gabe: Multiple people have said this.

Lisa: Whoa! Oh, my God, this is my dream. So, you’re telling me that the goal is to fight with you more?

Gabe: The goal was always to be frenemies.

Lisa: But to specifically fight with you more? Oh, my God, I’m going to be so good at this.

Gabe: I know that’s why I picked you.

Lisa: Oh, I’ve been training for this for years.

Gabe: I thought you were uniquely qualified to not be a yes person.

Lisa: Thank you.

Gabe: I was very disturbed when people are like, yeah, the problem is, Lisa’s a yes person

Lisa: I don’t think that’s true; you just usually say that the right stuff, just not always. When you’re wrong, you’re wrong by a lot, but usually you’re good. Otherwise, I wouldn’t hang out with you because it would annoy me too much.

Gabe: Wow, I don’t know what that’s like.

Lisa: OK, going back. You said welcome. All right. Hey, everyone, see, I’m pretending like that whole thing didn’t happen. I’m just going now because I’m a professional. Don’t give me that look. Hey, everyone. Today’s quote comes to us from Abraham Lincoln. And he said, Most folks are as happy as they make up their minds to be. And he was the 16th president.

Gabe: You know, Lisa, I much preferred the quote, and I’m disappointed that you didn’t use it, which is I feel like I’m constantly worrying about the next part of my life without realizing that I’m right in the middle of what I used to look forward to. And that came from a Twitter user, Josie Vanco.

Lisa: All right, that is an absolutely brilliant quote and describes you perfectly, but yeah, I feel like you’re not really understanding the essence of the quotes. I got the 16th president, the savior of our nation. And you found one of your Twitter followers who does, in fact, say something very smart. I just really feel like you need to up your quote game. Maybe I could get you a book or a website or something. I’m better at quotes than you.

Gabe: You’re arguing with me for no reason.

Lisa: You told me to do that.

Gabe: The, it’s got to be good.

Lisa: Well, this is a burden to me.

Gabe: Let me start over.

Lisa: Can’t just turn it on and off, Gabe.

Gabe: Abraham Lincoln was obviously great, I mean, we learned about him in school and we clearly did not learn about Josie Vanco.

Lisa: His birthday is the same day as my mom’s.

Gabe: They’re about the same age.

Lisa: Ha ha.

Gabe: This quote spoke to me, like you said, it describes me to a T. Do you remember the show The Office? Remember the office? One of the quotes that one of the characters made is that the problem with it being the best years of your life is that you don’t know they’re the best years of your life when you’re living them.

Lisa: Totally true.

Gabe: I think all of us, you know, struggling with mental health issues, depression, sadness, loneliness, anxiety. We don’t know when it’s good when it’s happening. We know when we’re suffering. And then we reflect backwards and think, oh, why can’t I be like last summer when I was happy? But of course, here’s the thing. Last summer, we didn’t know we were happy. It’s only in retrospect. 

Lisa: But is that true? I don’t know that last summer you were happy, though. Why? Because you’ve decided that last summer is better than this summer

Gabe: Sure.

Lisa: If you weren’t happy in the moment, how do you define happiness? If you didn’t know you were happy, are you really happy?

Gabe: It’s meta right? As you would say, it’s, ooohhh, so meta.

Lisa: You do not understand the meaning of any phrases that I use. That is not what that means.

Gabe: That’s because you use them all incorrectly.

Lisa: No, that’s not why.

Gabe: Is a box of boxes meta?

Lisa: That is totally meta, get it?

Gabe: But

Lisa: Whoa. Yeah.

Gabe: But thinking you’re happy when you’re unhappy, not meta?

Lisa: Right, something that’s meta is self-referential.

Gabe: So what if you’re happy, but then you don’t realize it until you have something to compare it to? Is that meta?

Lisa: Yeah, maybe let’s go with for the purposes of this conversation, yes. Yes, it is.

Gabe: My whole point is that last summer, I think pretty much the entire world, will say, was better.

Lisa: Because we’re doing a COVID thing?

Gabe: Well, I mean, it is, in fact related to the global pandemic, but you know

Lisa: Right, right.

Gabe: Last summer we went through the summer and it was just like, oh, we didn’t get the vacation that we wanted. The fair food wasn’t as good as we wanted it to be. You know, the concert series wasn’t good. Our sports team lost. It was a mediocre summer. And now we’re at this summer where everything’s canceled. The whole world’s going to hell and we’re starting to reflect back. And we’re like, you know, last summer wasn’t so bad. And in fact, it’s changed our perspective because a shitty fair is better than no fair. And a concert that is mediocre is better than no concert. So we’re starting to realize that last year was actually a pretty decent summer, but it’s only in retrospect. I think this is how happiness works for many people.

Lisa: Well, that’s how happiness works for you, but that’s part of your problem, you’re constantly comparing things, you’re always comparing yourself to other people, you’re always comparing this situation to that situation, and it’s always coming up short. That’s one of the reasons you’re unhappy.

Gabe: That’s because happiness has no definition, see, a dollar is a dollar. Gabe, do you have a dollar? I can look at my wallet and if there’s a dollar in there, the answer is yes. If there’s not a dollar in there, the answer is no. But then if somebody said, hey, Gabe, are you rich? Well, now what? How do we decide? Because I’m going to say, hey, I think having one hundred million dollars is rich, but you’re going to say, well, Bill Gates doesn’t. Bill Gates thinks that’s poverty. All right. Well, now what do we do? OK, so Bill Gates is rich, but, you know, the sultan of of who

Lisa: Brunei.

Gabe: Is the actual richest guy? The sultan of Brunei, he’s

Lisa: I think it’s Jeff Bezos now.

Gabe: Well, I don’t know. But there’s some Bill Gates is not the richest guy. So that person thinks that Bill Gates is poor. He doesn’t want to play on that level. And Jeff Bezos does, in fact, maybe have more money. But he’s not a sultan. He’s not royalty. He can’t make dictator laws. So I don’t know if Jeff Bezos has more money than the sultan of Brunei, but I do know for a fact that the sultan of Brunei has more power and influence than Jeff Bezos.

Lisa: I don’t know that that’s true.

Gabe: You know damn well that it’s true.

Lisa: Not the point of the story, though.

Gabe: Jeff Bezos does not have a military. He is not royalty. Jeff Bezos cannot go around and murder all of his people for fun. I don’t even know if the sultan of Brunei does that, but he’s allowed, whereas Jeff Bezos is not.

Lisa: Yeah, so that’s not the point of the show. Bring us back around to the happiness.

Gabe: This is my point. We can’t even determine who has more power, Jeff Bezos or the Sultan of Brunei? But you want me to determine happiness? How?

Lisa: No, not for everyone, just for you.

Gabe: Stop, stop right there, you just said, Gabe, I want you to try to determine happiness just for you, but you’ve also said do not compare yourself to other people, places or things.

Lisa: Right, right.

Gabe: How do I do it then? How do I know if I’m happy?

Lisa: You do not have this problem when it comes to recovery, we’ve talked many times about how recovery is self-defined.

Gabe: But OK, fine, so should I do happiness the way that I did recovery?

Lisa: Yes.

Gabe: Because the way that I determined that I was in recovery is that my life was better this year than it was last year. I literally compared myself not only to previous examples of Gabe, but I also compared myself to others. And you just said not to do that with happiness.

Lisa: That’s how you decided you were in recovery?

Gabe: Of course,

Lisa: Seriously, that was your system?

Gabe: Yes, 100 percent, and I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

Lisa: Wait, wait, wait. So, for example, the summer of COVID, or if you have a massive car accident tomorrow or if your dog dies, then suddenly you’ll no longer be in recovery?

Gabe: Well, potentially, what are my? What happens after that? And listen, when you said I got in a car accident, am I in physical pain?

Lisa: Yes.

Gabe: Yeah, I’m probably not my best self. Don’t you think that’s reasonable?

Lisa: But does that mean you’re not in recovery from bipolar disorder?

Gabe: Potentially.

Lisa: So, you’re telling me that any single thing bad that happens in your life will automatically mean that you are no longer in recovery with

Gabe: No,

Lisa: Bipolar disorder?

Gabe: No, I don’t know why are you adding the word automatically. No, of course not. That’s.

Lisa: Because you just said that’s how you decide you decided. Today is better than the day previously. Also, doesn’t that give you, like, no wiggle room at all on a day to day basis? Are you trying to get every single day of your life better than the day before it? Because that sounds pretty hard.

Gabe: I am simply saying that when it comes to recovery, I do compare this version of Gabe to previous version of Gabes to see how I’m doing, I need some measurement to know if I’m doing better. Otherwise I could just declare myself to be in recovery, determine it to be true, and you could be like, dude, you’re homeless, you’re not taking your medication. Your wife left you, you haven’t showered in six months. But according to you, all I have to do is decide I’m in recovery and it counts. That seems like nonsense.

Lisa: So, you’re saying that the way you determine happiness is by comparing yourself to previous versions of you and deciding if you are happy? OK, I can work with this, then why aren’t you happy right now? This is the best you you’ve ever been. You’re the healthiest you’ve ever been. You’re in the best position with your recovery. You have the most money. You have the most stable relationship. You have the cutest dog. Why are you not happy right this second?

Gabe: I can answer this question with needing ten thousand dollars, right? I need ten thousand dollars.

Lisa: To be happy?

Gabe: No, I just I need ten thousand dollars. It’s an analogy

Lisa: OK

Gabe: Follow along. The goal is ten thousand dollars. Everybody understand? Gabe needs ten thousand dollars. Now you say Gabe, oh, my God, you did it. You have eight thousand dollars. And I say, I know I’m, I don’t have the ten thousand dollars. Well, but this is the most money that you’ve had towards that goal ever. So therefore, you’ve reached the goal. No, the goal is ten thousand dollars. Having eight thousand dollars means I’m still not at goal. Oh my God. You know, when you started this, you had zero and you’ve gone all the way up to eight thousand dollars. This is, in fact, the most money that you’ve had toward the goal ever. You just can’t be at goal. Now, take out the word goal and put in happiness. And there’s the problem. Also, you still haven’t defined the word happiness for me. Ten thousand dollars. That’s an exact number, right? So happiness. I want to know what happiness is. Tell me what happiness is. Everybody looks at me and says, oh, you have to determine that for yourself. It’s internal. You have to decide. Even the sixteenth president, the guy who beat my guy for the quote said, well, most folks are as happy as they make up their mind to be. Well, I guess that is a nice philosophical point and it makes people all warm and fuzzy on the inside. It’s nonsense. It’s literal nonsense.

Lisa: That is a problem.

Gabe: And also, you know, while I’m on the subject, just just while I’m here, Lisa.

Lisa: Yes, please tell me more, Gabe. 

Gabe: I just I feel the need to do so. What condescending tripe is that? Oh, you’re dying and you have no money and you have no health insurance and that dog is eating your gangrened leg. Well, just make up your mind to be happy. You’re only as happy as you want to be. Listen up, world. We don’t need to take care of this person dying on the side of the road because they’ve made up their mind to be happy. Wow, that’s fantastic.

Lisa: You’ve got way too many things going at one time.

Gabe: I’ll just sit back and let you respond.

Lisa: Ok, well, it’s going to be a while because you’ve got many things going on here.

Gabe: I’ll be patient.

Lisa: First off, I love your analogies because they are very clearly illustrating everything wrong with your approach to happiness. And incidentally, the reason why you one, are not happy and two will never be happy. Ten thousand dollars represents happiness, right? That’s the analogy.

Gabe: Right, yes.

Lisa: Ok, ten thousand dollars represents happiness. What is your ten thousand dollars? What has to happen for you to reach happiness? Like you said, the ten thousand dollars, that’s clear. It’s exact. We know for sure. Either you have it or you don’t. Done. Do you have such an analogy for happiness? Can you tell me, well if blah blah blah blah then I will be happy? Do you have that?

Gabe: I mean, I do, but

Lisa: Ok, let’s hear it. Go.

Gabe: You’re about to win the arguments,

Lisa: Yes, I am, I know. That’s why I want to continue.

Gabe: I know that I’m about to get checkmated because, of course, there’s been dozens of things.

Lisa: Yes.

Gabe: As soon as I get a job, I’ll be happy. As

Lisa: Uh-huh.

Gabe: Soon as I can be self-employed, I’ll be happy. As soon as I get in a relationship, I’ll be happy. As soon as I buy a house, I’ll be happy. As soon as I get divorced from the annoying Lisa, I’ll be happy. As soon as I get a new car, I’ll be happy. As soon as I go on vacation, I’ll be happy. Currently, it’s as soon as the pandemic is over, I’ll be happy. 

Lisa: It’s always something that isn’t here yet. Always. You always have one more thing that’s going to make you happy, and then when you achieve that thing, you’re like, well, yeah, I mean, I know I said last month that if I got to this goal, I would be happy. But now that I think about it. I can vividly remember the day you told me, this was before you had gastric bypass, that if you could just weigh 300 pounds, that would be it. You would never ask for anything else. That was all you wanted in life. You would be completely happy. That’s all you needed, was to weigh 300 pounds.

Gabe: In my defense, I was not yet diagnosed with bipolar disorder, so maybe it’s not that I’m unreasonable, it’s that I get new data.

Lisa: Ok, what new data have you gotten?

Gabe: The ten thousand dollars isn’t enough, the reason I wanted ten thousand dollars is because that’s how much the thing that I wanted to buy cost. But in the time it took me to save up the ten thousand dollars. The price.

Lisa: The price went up?

Gabe: Yeah. Now it costs fifteen thousand dollars. I’m not the unreasonable one. Society keeps raising the price of things. Its inflation.

Lisa: Oh, my God,

Gabe: It’s happiness inflation.

Lisa: My eyes are rolling so hard, I think I’m going to have permanent brain damage, Your problem is that society is constantly changing the definition of happiness?

Gabe: They’re raising the happiness price,

Lisa: Oh,

Gabe: It’s inflation.

Lisa: That’s.

Gabe: Yes.

Lisa: That is awesome. There are like no words to even respond to that. That’s how awesome the thing you’ve just said is.

Gabe: So I win, right, I win.

Lisa: No, no, no.

Gabe: You don’t believe in inflation?

Lisa: Happiness inflation, OK, so all right, fine, the happiness inflation has occurred. Now you need fifteen thousand dollars.

Gabe: Yes.

Lisa: What’s the current price then? You can’t tell what the price is going to be with inflation in a year, 10 years, 15 years. But you can tell me what the price is right now. So what is the price right now? Not what is it going to be when you get to the current price? What is it right this second?

Gabe: I need the pandemic to end so I can get back to my job. I want to get back to work,

Lisa: I’m writing that down.

Gabe: I would also like the things with my job to clear up. You know, there’s a lot of transition right now that’s making me uncomfortable.

Lisa: Right.

Gabe: I’d like you to drop that tone. That would be helpful.

Lisa: You all heard it here first, listeners. Gabe says that once the pandemic is over and the uncertainty with his job has cleared up and I start being nicer to him, perhaps an unrealistic goal, I’ll give you, he will achieve happiness. So that’s what it’s going to take.

Gabe: Well, I mean, assuming that inflation doesn’t take over

Lisa: Right,

Gabe: I mean,

Lisa: Right, right.

Gabe: Inflation is a problem.

Lisa: This is honestly, and I thought this about you for years, and it’s actually heartbreaking and really, really sad to watch. I was reading about how to choose happiness, right. And one of them was set goals. That people who set goals are happier. You do that part. You constantly set goals and they’re usually measurable and reasonably attainable, just as the advice column suggests. Right. But it doesn’t matter because you meet that goal and you’re still not happy. Then you immediately invent a new goal. I have, honestly, I really can’t think of any. Yeah, well, I’m going back through 20 years of knowing you. There are very few times when I felt like you were happy or content in the moment. Almost never.

Gabe: Now, hang on, hang on, this is what makes me driven, could you imagine remember that

Lisa: Really?

Gabe: At the very first. Hang on, hang on. Just hear me out. I listened to you. I weighed 550 pounds, and I said that as soon as I weigh 300 pounds, I will be happy and content. Could you imagine if I’d just stopped there? I never would have got down to 220, right? Now, let’s go with some other goals as soon as I get a job. You recognize that, I remember that and that job that I wanted because I had been unemployed for a few years because I was struggling with bipolar disorder and I was.

Lisa: You were underemployed, you were not unemployed.

Gabe: The point is, is that I wanted to get back to working full time, and I did, but that job didn’t pay very well. It wasn’t a very good job and it didn’t pay very well at all. So according to you, I would have stayed there. Like, that’s not good. Like setting all of these goals is what got me to where I am today. So, you know, my next goal is, you know, to be on like satellite radio or to be on a big network or, I don’t know, to expand out my podcast hosting abilities or to launch a podcast network. And you’re saying that I should just be content with where I am, so I’ll just be the host of the Not Crazy podcast, the host of The Psych Central Podcast, and just call it a day. But you realize that if I would have done that, I never would have gotten the podcast. I’d still be all the way back at that crappy job I hated from 15 years ago, making no money with crappy health insurance. You’re holding me back.

Lisa: Oh. OK, we’re just going to let that one go. I’m holding you back, I’m going to stab you in the face, OK? No, no, no, no.

Gabe: She means metaphorically, she’s not actually going to stab me in the face because that would be wrong.

Lisa: Kind of like how you mean that I’m metaphorically holding you back, which I’m not actually doing. You’ve got to be kidding me. Stop trying to derail the conversation, Gabe. You are trying to change the subject or distract me with off topic things, because, you know, I’m right.

Gabe: I’m not doing that at all. You told me that the reason that I’m never happy is because I immediately set a new goal when I achieved the old goal. Well, but I think setting new goals is good. This is how you evolve as a person. It also creates happiness inflation.

Lisa: You have reframed what is, quite frankly, a personality flaw as you being driven. I’m not impossible to satisfy, I just am motivated to succeed and move forward. No. OK, so you want to set a new goal once you get the previous goal? Great. Yay. Wonderful. But like, how soon after achieving the goal do You need to set the new goal? Because for you it’s within seconds. You can’t like, take a day. I mean, I’m not even asking for much. Right. I’m not even saying that you should be happy for weeks or months, just maybe like a day, maybe a few days. Maybe that would be nice. Maybe if you achieve the goal on a Friday, you could just be happy for like the weekend. And then on Monday you could get around to making this new unattainable goal.

Gabe: Ok, first off, why do you keep calling them unattainable goals? 

Lisa: All right, let me rephrase.

Gabe: This is the fascinating part about trying to establish, in my opinion, happiness, because I’m still very hung up on the time that I told you that I wanted to start a national advocacy movement and I wanted to be a national advocate on the same level as Julie Fast, as Natasha Tracy, as all the high level advocates that I have looked up to for years. And you told me, no, that hurt me a lot. Now, you don’t deny that that happened.

Lisa: I did not tell you no, I told you to start with a more attainable goal. You said, Oh, I’m going to blah, blah, blah. And I said, OK, instead of being blah, blah, blah, why don’t you start with getting up off the couch? You’re like those people who are like, oh, my goal is to run a marathon. How about your goal is to walk out to the mailbox? How about that be your goal? I can’t help but notice that the goal you set is always very distant in the future, very difficult to attain, almost impossible to measure and can’t be done immediately. It requires some sort of thing to happen for it to come.

Gabe: And herein lies the problem, you have now completely switched because you said Gabe makes good goals that are measurable and he follows the advice column. And now

Lisa: No, no, no, no, no.

Gabe: Here we are later. And you’re like all these nebulous goals and get Gabe, to, pie in the sky.

Lisa: No.

Gabe: A pie in the sky and nobody can reach them.

Lisa: No, what I’m saying is, one you remember back incorrectly and the number two thing you are setting the goal that will lead to your happiness backwards. You just said that back in the day, I said that if I could be an advocate on a national stage, I would be happy.

Gabe: I did say that.

Lisa: Well, here you are.

Gabe: Yeah.

Lisa: Are you happy?

Gabe: No.

Lisa: Like anything? Were you happy for a minute? I’m not even saying you need to be happy long term. Just was there a period of happiness?

Gabe: How long is a period?

Lisa: More than one minute.

Gabe: Yes.

Lisa: Really, how long was that? An hour?

Gabe: Maybe. That’s more than a minute.

Lisa: Without exaggeration, I mean, we’re joking around here, but it wasn’t a day, it was not a whole day.

Gabe: It might have been a day.

Lisa: The first time you got one of those large contracts, you got booked at a big conference, you did not, in fact, have an entire day of happiness. You did not and you don’t now either. Remember how we had the whole conversation about self-talk and negative self-talk? Yeah, one time. This is a true story. We were on vacation. We were on a three-day vacation. We were on the evening of the second day and you started getting all depressed. I said, what’s wrong? We’re having a great time. And you said, yeah, but tomorrow we have to go home.

Gabe: Well, that’s true, we do.

Lisa: We’re on vacation, you can’t even enjoy the vacation because you’re talking about how soon this is going to end. Yeah, no kidding. You realize that that’s actually an analogy for life. All life ends, Gabe.

Gabe: Well, how am I supposed to be happy when you’re telling me that I’m going to die?

Lisa: Everyone dies. We were on vacation, we were actively on vacation, and you were going on about. No, no, no, I can’t have fun because after all, tomorrow the vacation ends. What, so you just can’t enjoy life at all? There’s no hope for you. There’s no hope. You can never be happy. 

Gabe: You know, I have a pronounced anxiety disorder,

Lisa: Yeah, it was worse back then.

Gabe: And it was worse back then, but you keep saying this like I have a choice. I know that when you reflect backwards, you think, why doesn’t Gabe choose to be happy? He got the thing that he wanted. He reached the goal. But you know what the definition of anxiety disorder is? I just

Lisa: You think it’s anxiety? Not depression or bipolar?

Gabe: I think it’s all of it, I think in the example that you used of the vacation, it’s anxiety because it’s going to end. I’m anxious about the travel the next day. I’m worried about, you know, back then I was still scared of airplanes. I was really pushing myself really hard. So, it was dread that factors in in no small way. And then you keep saying to me, choose happiness. Do you walk up to people in wheelchairs and say, choose walking? That’s just an asshole thing to do. And you would never behave that way because you understand that that’s real. Do you not think that anxiety disorder is real?

Lisa: That is a good point, and that is a problem, it’s not clean. This whole idea of happiness is a choice, is a burden for the mentally ill. Well, it’s a burden for a lot of people, but we’re talking about the mentally ill. This is a burden for people with mental illness because it implies that you’re just not trying hard enough. Just cheer up. Just get better. So, yeah, it is not clean. You have a non-zero point there.

Gabe: Oh, just, just a non-zero? Just a non-zero?

Lisa: Yes, well, but here’s the problem with it, though, so are you saying that it’s completely unattainable? Yes, it is more difficult for us to choose happiness than it is for people who do not have mental illness. But is it impossible? No, it’s not impossible, especially when you have the resources to be treated and to be in recovery, which you do and which you are. So it is not an impossible thing for us to do. It may be harder than it is for the average, kind of like we always go back to the diabetes example. Yeah, it’s harder to live your life when you’re a diabetic. You’ve got to do more stuff. You’ve got a plan, but it’s not impossible. And you seem to think it’s impossible. It is not impossible for you to choose happiness.

Gabe: I understand what you’re saying, and let’s go back to the wheelchair analogy, right

Lisa: OK

Gabe: That’s not clean either. I follow this incredible health advocate who recently had to have a part of her leg amputated and she is chronicling her journey. And one of the things that she keeps saying over and over again is I have to choose to walk again. The day that she came out of the surgery, you know, she had the picture and she’s like, I can’t be fitted for my prosthetic yet because it hasn’t healed. Now, this happened like a year ago. So, she’s now at the point where she’s doing the prosthetic and she keeps saying over and over again, of course, that she sees all of these people using prosthetics and they’re just walking normal. She, of course, brings up the marathon runners that are using them and she’s still walking with a cane. And sometimes she steps wrong. And she’s a very, very honest blogger. But you’re right, if she was sitting in the wheelchair, it would not be unreasonable for you to walk up and say, listen, you can walk if you want to. I just want you to understand that she wants to and she’s going through so much hell, she is working so hard. But you’re right, because she is choosing to walk, choosing to want to, choosing to do the work. There is some date in the future that she’s going to walk just fine. And when she wears a pair of jeans, people who just met her won’t even know that she’s got a prosthetic leg under there. I guess I understand what you’re saying, but I feel like people are cheering her on. I feel like when she falls down, people are like, get back up, you can do it. Whereas when I fall down, people are like, choose happiness, dumb ass. I don’t feel like I get the cheerleading that she gets.

Lisa: You don’t, but so what?

Gabe: I think that’s an excellent point. It’s hard enough being sick, but now I’ve got everybody yelling at me for being sick.

Lisa: Ok, but let’s go back to the analogy you just gave about how she is doing some non-zero aspect of choosing,

Gabe: She is,

Lisa: Are you?

Gabe: I am.

Lisa: When you say that she had to make the choice to walk again, have you made that choice?

Gabe: I feel like I have.

Lisa: You have not.

Gabe: I know.

Lisa: And I’m not trying to be a bitch about it, but, yeah, you have not. She says to herself, hey, I know that I’m going to walk again. It will happen. I’m going to make it happen. You don’t say that to yourself. You’re never sitting around saying, you know, this is going to happen. You don’t even think it’s going to happen. And you’re definitely not choosing it.

Gabe: As you know, I abhor the suffering Olympics, but I’m going to play them for a moment because it’s going to make my point.

Lisa: OK

Gabe: So for long time listeners, you don’t need to send me the hypocrite email, I’m already aware. She knows what it’s like to walk. She’s got a clear goal. When she can walk without assistance, she will know that she achieved it. I have never been happy. I don’t know what happiness looks like and nobody can define it for me because I’m supposed to choose it or define it for myself. So you say, have I chosen to be happy? Every time I set that goal and say that I’m going to be happy then, I think that I have. You think that I get there, I can walk and that I intentionally injure myself in some way so that I can’t walk anymore.

Lisa: That’s not a good analogy.

Gabe: It’s a poor analogy. My point is, is that I believe that that will make me happy. And then when I get there, I realize that I am not.

Lisa: Do you honestly believe that?

Gabe: Of course I do, I genuinely and honestly believe that these things will make me happy, I believed with all of my heart that just being a fully functioning adult that didn’t need supports from society or my family would make me happy. I thought that, you know, being a homeowner, being married, getting a dog, having money in the bank, I thought that these things would make me happy. And according to the research, those things were supposed to make me happy. There’s a research study that says, oh, all people need to be happy is an individual income of about seventy five thousand dollars a year, physical health, employment, experience of positive emotions, good social relationships, moral values and family, and basic access to safety and social equality. I have all of those things, so I thought I should be happy. But I’m not. I’m not happy.

Lisa: That is not exactly what said study said. Said study said that people who define themselves as happy often share these traits.

Gabe: Well, I have those traits and I don’t define myself as happy, nobody called me. I don’t think they called anybody with serious and persistent mental illness. I think they called a bunch of random people who, frankly, are living a great life. And they’re like, hey,

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: Do you like your job, your family? You have money, access to health care? Yeah, I have all those things. Are you happy? But I’m not. Doesn’t that just make me disordered?

Lisa: Yeah,

Gabe: Well, but.

Lisa: Yeah, it does.

Gabe: You don’t think it makes me disordered. You think that I am choosing not to be happy versus I am incapable of being happy. And therein lies the problem. You think this is a choice that I am not choosing. I maintain that it’s a disorder that I have that nobody is curing.

Lisa: Ok, but what are you doing to cure it? What actions are you taking to get yourself this cure?

Gabe: Ok, I go to therapy, I go to my doctor and take my medication, I speak honestly and openly about it. I’ve, of course, achieved all of those things in that research study that they said that people that are happy to share and I set measurable goals and attain them. And it still hasn’t worked.

Lisa: Ok, you can always do more.

Gabe: Yeah, that’s what I said, that’s why I set a new goal, that is the happiness inflation that I talked about. You’re right, I can always do more. And that’s why I set a new goal. And you said that was wrong.

Lisa: No, what you said here are the things that I’m doing, and yet it has not succeeded in making me happy. Well, then clearly you’re doing the wrong things and or you need to add in more things.

Gabe: That is why I keep setting goals, I am

Lisa: No, no, no.

Gabe: Adding in more things.

Lisa: You’re adding the wrong things.

Gabe: How do you know? Tell me what to add.

Lisa: Ok, well, I got a couple of things. I’ve been doing Internet research. 

Gabe: This is going to turn out well, was it on YouTube?

Lisa: No, because I could read faster than I can listen.

Gabe: And you don’t like to listen.

Lisa: But Oprah does have

Gabe: Oh, Oprah.

Lisa: This amazing video.

Gabe: Is going to save us all, ladies and gentlemen,

Lisa: Well,

Gabe: I’m buckling in for this. What’s Oprah say to do? Tell me how the billionaire guru with no psychology background is going to fix the serious and persistently mentally ill Gabe Howard. Go.

Lisa: Right, whatever. Don’t. Forget Oprah, although don’t forget Oprah because she’s amazing. 

Gabe: I agree with you, Oprah is amazing and I have a lot of respect for Oprah.

Lisa: Oprah’s amazing.

Gabe: I can’t help but notice that you said I did research on your severe and persistent mental illness by contacting a talk show host.

Lisa: No, you said did you watch a video? I said, no, I did not watch a video, but if you do want to watch a video, Oprah’s got a great video. So if you’re video people watch Oprah. Anyway, stop trying to derail the thing I’m saying.

Gabe: I’m sorry that I brought up that the celebrities can’t save us all and that we should stop valuing celebrities over actual doctors and researchers.

Lisa: Red herring, Gabe, red herring.

Gabe: I prefer a straw man argument

Lisa: Oh, you’re right, that’s better. Yeah, take back the red herring thing.

Gabe: So meta.

Lisa: No, no, no, I’m a little impressed you used strawman correctly and.

Gabe: I’m sad that every time I speak intelligently, you’re shocked. What do you think of me?

Lisa: Really? We were married for years, you think I married a dumb guy? I hate it when you say that. You’re always like, oh, my God, you think I’m stupid. Really? Really. So I just deliberately chose to be around the stupid guy. It’s frankly insulting to my taste.

Gabe: We had a healthy relationship, it’s much better now.

Lisa: It is a lot better now, a lot better. You should all consider divorces, it works out great.

Gabe: Remember when we were married and you specifically told me that fighting in public was wrong?

Lisa: I know, right? That’s why this has changed my world.

Gabe: So fighting in public is wrong, but fighting in public for money is OK.

Lisa: I know. Like I said, I’ve been training for this job my whole life. Who knew you were actually giving me vocational training all those years?

Gabe: Once again, you’re welcome.

Lisa:  We’ll be back in a minute after a word from our sponsors.

Announcer: Interested in learning about psychology and mental health from experts in the field? Give a listen to the Psych Central Podcast, hosted by Gabe Howard. Visit PsychCentral.com/Show or subscribe to The Psych Central Podcast on your favorite podcast player.

Announcer: This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.com. Secure, convenient, and affordable online counseling. Our counselors are licensed, accredited professionals. Anything you share is confidential. Schedule secure video or phone sessions, plus chat and text with your therapist whenever you feel it’s needed. A month of online therapy often costs less than a single traditional face to face session. Go to BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral and experience seven days of free therapy to see if online counseling is right for you. BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral.

Gabe:  Now we’re back discussing, what are we talking about?

Lisa:  Gabe’s inability to feel happiness and joy and suck everybody else down.

Gabe:  All right, are you ready?

Lisa:  I feel like that’s an accurate summary.

Gabe:  And we’re back discussing my inability to experience happiness and joy.

Lisa:  It’s bleak but true.

Gabe: Now explain to me again why it’s my fault that I’m not happy, even though I have chronicled an actual disorder and the celebrity that’s going to save me.

Lisa: Stop trying to derail what I’m saying. I was looking up about choosing happiness, and I agree it is a very trite saying. I’m not a big one for self-help things. I’m in general not a snuggly, huggly, cuddly person. On the one hand, I feel a little bit icky saying choose happiness, because, yeah. I’m pretty sure rainbows or hearts are going to start coming in here pretty soon, and I really don’t like those things.

Gabe: Space unicorn.

Lisa: Well, OK, never mind, I take back. Space unicorns are great, also narwhals, they’re the unicorns of the sea

Gabe: Narwhals, narwhals, swimming in the ocean

Lisa: Narwhals, swimming in the ocean.

Gabe: Anyways, continue. You’ve been trying to make a point now for about an hour and a half.

Lisa: Gee, I wonder who’s distracting me from that.

Gabe: Who?

Lisa: Oh, for God’s sakes. All right, focus. When you say I’m doing the following things, I do recognize it’s kind of the marathon runner thing where people say, oh, my God, you’re so lazy. I just ran a marathon. Yeah, but did you run a triathlon? I mean, can’t you do better? So there’s always more. No matter what level you hit, there’s always more. So when you say I’m doing the following things, that’s wonderful. That’s great. But there’s always more. And here specifically, Gabe, are the more things that you could do, stop living in the past and more importantly, stop comparing yourself to others. You are constantly comparing yourself to other people and saying, look, I don’t have as much as those people, sad. Well, why are you picking those people? The majority of the world and the majority of humans throughout history are worse off than you are at this exact moment. So why aren’t you comparing yourself to those people? Because if all it takes and you’re the one who just told me that, that the reason you’re unhappy is because you’re comparing yourself to this person and that’s why you’re unhappy. Well, then compare yourself to a different person and poof, happiness.

Gabe: Because the people who are worse off than me, I feel like it’s my job to help them be better. That’s what being a mental health advocate is. So, the fact that they are worse off than me is a representation of my failure and how much more work there is to do.

Lisa: Wow, wow,

Gabe: Yeah.

Lisa: Wow, I don’t even

Gabe: Yeah, I internalize a lot.

Lisa: Whoa the ego on that. Wow.

Gabe: I understand what you’re saying about ego, and probably is some of that there. I think that it is intermingled. But, you know, it bothers me. I have this guilt that I was able to get help. Whenever I hear stories of from family members who are talking about their loved ones who died by suicide. And I realized that they lived the same life as me. Their parents love them just as much as my parents loved me. Why was I the lucky one? That disturbs me. I can’t enjoy my recovery until everybody else has recovery, too. It pains me to know that there are people that could be living the exact same life as me if only they could get access to treatment and care. Because that is just so incredibly unfair. That keeps me up at night. The kids nowadays are calling that being an empath. It’s where you absorb other people’s emotions and claim them as your own, which is kind of an egotistical thing to do. And I don’t understand why it doesn’t work with happiness. I am traumatically affected by the suffering of other people who I consider a kindred spirit. And that is the basis of my advocacy. I understand that there is an element of ego in there, but it’s not because I think that I’m great or because I can fix it. A lot of people just don’t care. 

Lisa: Yeah, there is no answer to that, you are completely right and it’s horrifying.

Gabe: Hey, I win, I win, I win, I win, I win, 

Lisa: No, because you’re 

Gabe: All I do is win, win, win and then I win, win, win. No, not too soon,

Lisa: No,

Gabe: Ok.

Lisa: No, no, no. Also inaccurate, but again, sorry, I couldn’t resist.

Gabe: I love how you get to be both my debate partner and you’re like the judge, you’re like inaccurate, no points awarded. I’m just like what happened here? I think I did win. I decide all points awarded.

Lisa: Ok, so you decide, huh, but you’re not able to decide other things.

Gabe: I can determine

Lisa: Inconsistent.

Gabe: I can determine things for other people, I

Lisa: Exactly.

Gabe: Can’t determine things for myself.

Lisa: I’ve noticed that about you.

Gabe: I know it’s, it’s a quirk.

Lisa: That you’ve rebranded once again, reframed, as it were, as a virtue.

Gabe: I learned it from watching you. You are the most critical person I know, and you say that being critical allows you to spot problems before they become bigger problems,

Lisa: You’re welcome.

Gabe: Right? You are correct, but you realize that you have rebranded being just this incredibly negative, spiteful, hateful person as no, no, no, I can spot problems before they become bigger problems, which I can’t deny. But most of the time you’re just complaining about a movie that everybody else enjoyed while we’re all trying to eat our dinner.

Lisa: What I’m trying to say is you do it only in one direction, right? Like you look downwards of people who are not doing as well as you and say, well, look, I can’t be happy if I compare myself to those people. That’s not right. That’s morally wrong. Which, hey, you might have a point there. That’s not good. That’s not something that will enhance my happiness. OK, all fair points, all good. But you can look upwards at people who are doing arguably better than you and say, look, that’s the reason I’m unhappy. I can compare my happiness to those people and find it lacking. You consistently say I cannot use a downward measurement to do anything with my happiness. I can’t use that, but I can use an upward measurement. And that is definitive. That shows that I’m not happy and it shows that I’m completely reasonable in this belief. That does not make sense. You can’t have both. I think that you need to one, define happiness for yourself because you’ve never successfully done that.

Gabe: Define happiness for you, Lisa.

Lisa: I’ve got it.

Gabe: Ok, you claim that you’re happy.

Lisa: Yeah, I am happy.

Gabe: What is Lisa Kiner’s definition of happiness?

Lisa: Oh, don’t get me wrong, it’s a difficult thing to say. It’s kind of like that whole porn thing. I can’t really define it, but I know it when I see it, right? Yeah, I’m happy. Strangely, you don’t think I’m happy, but I am. I’m happy.

Gabe: Define it then. Tell me the definition of Lisa Kiner’s happiness.

Lisa: My mental illness is under excellent control. I haven’t been suicidal or hopeless in years, I admit it’s a low bar, but nonetheless it was one that I took a really long time to clear. So pretty excited about that. And overall, I’m mostly content and derive pleasure from things that I do in my day to day life.

Gabe: All you do is eat Rice Krispies and sleep.

Lisa: I find both of those things very pleasurable.

Gabe: So I just need more sleep and more Rice Krispies, and I, too, can lead the Lisa Kiner life?

Lisa: If those were the things that worked for you, yeah. You need to define the things that work for you in your own life, you get to define.

Gabe: But a lot of people feel that you’re wasting your life.

Lisa: So what? All of those habits that people who choose happiness have, that’s another one of them that you don’t have, you are defining yourself in comparison to others and you worry too much about what other people think.

Gabe: But you worry about what other people think to this day,

Lisa: Not like you do.

Gabe: You are still upset that you don’t have a master’s degree.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah, I am.

Gabe: Well, but why?

Lisa: Obviously, I’m not upset enough to go get one.

Gabe: How will having a master’s degree help you sleep all day, podcast and eat Rice Krispies?

Lisa: Which is why I don’t have one.

Gabe: Then why are you upset that you don’t have one? You clearly don’t want it or need it.

Lisa: Well, that’s my point. You remember how one time we were at Weight Watchers and the lady had an example of, oh, I saw a classical musician and he was amazing. And I thought, oh, my God, I would do anything to be able to play the piano like that. I would do anything. Would you? Would you practice six hours a day for eight years? Her analogy was, oh, I would do anything to be thin. Would you? Well, then will you go to the gym every day and follow this weight loss plan? Yeah, this is the same thing. When I say, gee, I’d really like a master’s degree. Well, apparently, I don’t in fact, want one. If I wanted it that badly, I’d have one.

Gabe: But doesn’t it upset you that people that you’ve known a long time, the reason that a master’s degree is so important to Lisa is of course, because that’s all she wanted in high school. I believe you wanted a Ph.D.?

Lisa: I did.

Gabe: You wanted you wanted to go all the way and you just have a bachelor’s degree in physics. Just.

Lisa: I was very academically successful when I was younger, when I was in high school, etc. But yeah, mental illness has a way of derailing some of your academic plans at that age.

Gabe: But there’s a lot of friends and family that are disappointed in you for not

Lisa: Yeah.

Gabe: Having achieved it, and they say things like, oh, you’re so smart, why are you just a podcaster?

Lisa: You had such potential,

Gabe: Yes.

Lisa: You had so many possibilities before you.

Gabe: Doesn’t that bother you coming from people you love?

Lisa: Yeah, it’s super annoying, totally bothers me.

Gabe: Well, how come that doesn’t affect you?

Lisa: How much are you going to let stuff like that bother you?

Gabe: I, it bothers me a lot.

Lisa: Exactly like I just said, that’s one of the habits you’re not choosing. You worry too much about what other people are thinking about you. And don’t get me wrong, I understand, as we talked about in a previous episode, this happens to be a little bit self protective. In general, people like you. People like you, they get along with you. People in general don’t like me and don’t get along with me and find my personality to be abrasive. If I cared too much about what other people think, I would just have to curl up and die. There’d be no solution because most people, in fact, do not like me. To say to myself, hey, I don’t care about what other people think. Well, isn’t that convenient, since most people don’t really care for you? Yeah. Yeah, it is. But nonetheless.

Gabe: I like you just fine, Lisa, but it’s self-protective for me to listen to others because there was a point in my life where I didn’t listen to others when they said things like, Gabe, get off the roof, Gabe, don’t spend all that money. Gabe, you can’t behave this way. Gabe, you’re treating us poorly. Gabe, your behavior is problematic. Gabe, you need to get help. And I would like to point out that somebody once said, Gabe, being suicidal is not normal. You need to go to a hospital. And I did not listen to them. I was tricked. I was taken there under false pretenses, which was for my own good. So, once I realized that, oh, my God, I should have been listening to these people all along, I’ve now listened to them more. When did they switch from saying reasonable things to stupid shit? I don’t know. And how do I tell the difference?

Lisa: That’s a problem, that is an absolute problem, and once again, it’s harder for people with mental illness, but it’s not impossible. So, yes, it is harder for you because how do you find that line? You couldn’t trust your own thoughts before. So what, you’re supposed to trust them now? That doesn’t make sense. It is more difficult for you, but it is not impossible. And you understand that in other areas of your life. There are plenty of people that tell you about various things you should do. The obvious answer would be politics or religion, right? There are plenty of people like, no, no, no, you should vote this way, Gabe. And you have no problem with saying no, you are wrong. That is incorrect. I should not vote that way. You don’t have any problem with that. That’s like a proof of concept. How do you find that of no, no. I am confident in my own beliefs on this subject. How do you find that for this? In your own self-worth or your own level of happiness?

Gabe: Obviously, I understand what you’re saying, but let’s hang on to that political example that you gave for a moment. You know, Gabe and Lisa, we have pretty much the identical political leanings. I mean,

Lisa: Pretty close.

Gabe: So it would give me pause if one day you said Gabe X and I was like, no, Lisa, it’s Y. It’s always been Y. And you’re like, Yeah, but now it’s X. You’re saying that I should be 100 percent confident that I’m still right? No, that would give me great pause, great long. That would keep me up at night.

Lisa: So, what you’re saying is that there are people whose opinions you respect who if they said something counter to what you believe, you would have to stop and consider it.

Gabe: Like hard.

Lisa: If you respect my opinion so greatly or you respect your long-term therapist or your doctors, et cetera, they’re telling you the same stuff. 

Gabe: Well,

Lisa: Why aren’t you listening to it?

Gabe: The role of a therapist or a doctor is not to tell you that you are happy. So, no, that is incorrect. 

Lisa: No, no, no, no, no,

Gabe: But. 

Lisa: That’s not what I’m saying. They are telling you if you do the following things, it will be beneficial to you.

Gabe: We’re not debating whether or not I have beneficial things in my life.

Lisa: No, we’re debating whether or not you do the habits of happy people and you don’t.

Gabe: Yes, I do.

Lisa: No, you don’t.

Gabe: Yes, I do. What habit of happy people do I not do? I don’t choose happiness? I don’t feel happy. I’m sorry I can’t choose it. And I think that’s ridiculous. It’s like choosing to have a headache or not to have a headache. You can’t choose it. It’s not a choice. That’s nonsense. Utter nonsense.

Lisa: But you, you could choose to avoid your migraine triggers; you could choose to go to the neurologist and get a better treatment plan.

Gabe: I do all those things, I absolutely do.

Lisa: Oh, but see, that’s just it, you don’t. And once again, marathon triathlon, you could always do more. The thing you do not do is stop worrying about what other people think. Stop comparing yourself to other people and stop living in the past. Those three things are what is keeping you from having the ability, or from just generally choosing, happiness. Is it harder for you than the average? Sure. Life screwed you. But so what? 

Gabe: This is the happiest I’ve ever

Lisa: Yup.

Gabe: Been and this is also the most content that I’ve ever been. I recognize that I don’t feel like I should, but I do notice that when I reflect back, I do feel that I, we see this in our own marriage. When we got divorced, it was awful. We had a lot of problems. But now from this vantage point with our friendship, we actually have a lot of happy memories from the time that we were married and together, I think that our memories are constantly adjusting and shifting as new data becomes available. And that’s why the quote at the beginning, not the one you picked, not the crappy one from the president guy, but that’s why the quote really struck me so much when I saw it on Twitter, I feel like I’m constantly worrying about the next part of my life without realizing I’m right in the middle of what I used to look forward to.

Lisa: Yes, and when you showed it to me, I thought, oh, my God, this person is brilliant and apparently is following you around to write down quotes, because this encapsulates your entire life and your entire mindset and not for nothing, it’s hard to watch. It’s difficult to see this in you all the time. It’s depressing and it makes me sad for you, which is messing with my happiness, Gabe.

Gabe: I recognized myself in it, too, and actually, as you know, the first thing I thought about when I saw it is, oh my God, that’s what Lisa says about me. And I actually screenshot, Lisa is not on Twitter. I screenshot it and sent it to Lisa. But here’s the thing that I realized. That thing has been retweeted 36,400 times as of like four days ago. So I don’t even know what it’s up to now. And four days ago, it was liked 133,000 times. I am not alone. I am not the only person that thinks this way, feels this way or has this particular problem. And that’s what made me want to do a deep dive into it. Also, I love subjects where Lisa just gets to scream over and over again, you are so wrong. I still maintain that nobody is looking into happiness inflation, and it’s a real problem. But I also maintain, Lisa, you are correct. There is an element of control that I have and there is an element of control that the 133,000 people who liked this tweet have. We can steer our own destiny. I don’t know if I’m willing to say control it, but I think we can move the wheel back and forth and try to get a handle on it.

Lisa: I also like subjects where I can tell you repeatedly that you’re wrong. We should definitely pick more of those subjects in the future, that will make us all happy. But your main problem is that you’ve never actually defined or determined what happiness does mean to you. 

Gabe: In the meantime, I will take solace in the fact that I am right in the middle of what I used to look forward to, which means retroactively, past Gabe would be very happy.

Lisa: And you are certainly not alone.

Gabe: All right, ladies and gentlemen, this is the point of the show where I plead with you, if you have any subjects that you want to hear Gabe and Lisa debate, argue about or cover, hit us up at Show@PsychCentral.com and tell us about it. Wherever you downloaded this podcast, please subscribe. Also, please rate, rank and review it and use your words and tell people why they should download and listen as well. And hey everybody, I wrote the book, Mental Illness Is an Asshole: And Other Observations. It’s three hundred and eighty pages of awesome. You can get it on Amazon, of course, but you can also go over to gabehoward.com and buy it from there and I will sign it. I’ll also throw in a bunch of free stuff, including stickers of the Not Crazy podcast.

Lisa: Remember, there’s always an outtake after the credits, and we’ll see you next Tuesday.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Not Crazy Podcast from Psych Central. For free mental health resources and online support groups, visit PsychCentral.com. Not Crazy’s official website is PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy. To work with Gabe, go to gabehoward.com. Want to see Gabe and me in person?  Not Crazy travels well. Have us record an episode live at your next event. E-mail show@psychcentral.com for details. 

 The post Podcast: Is Happiness a Choice? first appeared on World of Psychology.

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[erraticfairy]

Inside Schizophrenia: Love, Dating, and Marriage with Schizophrenia

Can people with schizophrenia fall in love? Can they date or even get married? In today’s episode, host Rachel Star Withers (a woman who lives with schizophrenia) and co-host Gabe Howard review their own past romantic experiences.

They also interview Andrew and Stephanie Downing, authors of Marriage and Schizophrenia: Eyes on the Prize. Listen to learn about their incredible journey of overcoming schizophrenia and building a healthy, rewarding, and happy marriage.

Computer Generated Transcript of “Love, Dating, Marriage with Schizophrenia” Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: Welcome to Inside Schizophrenia, a look in to better understanding and living well with schizophrenia. Hosted by renowned advocate and influencer Rachel Star Withers and featuring Gabe Howard.

Sponsor: Listeners, could a change in your schizophrenia treatment plan make a difference? There are options out there you might not know about. Visit OnceMonthlyDifference.com to find out more about once monthly injections for adults with schizophrenia.

Rachel Star Withers: Welcome to Inside Schizophrenia. I’m Rachel Star here with my co-host, Gabe Howard. Gabe today, an interesting topic, love, dating, marriage while having schizophrenia. As if those three things weren’t hard enough.

Gabe Howard: Yeah, you can see why we waited so long to do this, because I’ve known you for a long time, Rachel, and in all that time you’ve never wanted to discuss love, dating or marriage.

Rachel Star Withers: No.

Gabe Howard: You’re OK discussing schizophrenia,

Rachel Star Withers: Yes.

Gabe Howard: But not love dating or marriage. So this is gonna be fun.

Rachel Star Withers: Yeah, I’m not a great source for relationship advice because I’m single. Like, that’s the end of the story, I you know,

Gabe Howard: That’s very fair.

Rachel Star Withers: Yeah, I have been. For a long time.

Gabe Howard: And you’re happy being single, you’re.

Rachel Star Withers: Yeah, sure, whatever.

Gabe Howard: No, I mean, seriously, are you happy being single?

Rachel Star Withers: I’d rather be single than unhappy.

Gabe Howard: That’s fair. OK.

Rachel Star Withers: So I’m fine as I am. We’ll say it that way.

Gabe Howard: You’re fine as you are.

Rachel Star Withers: Yeah.

Gabe Howard: I think the important thing for the audience to understand, though, is that you’re not single because of schizophrenia. Right? You don’t feel that those two things have any relation. You do have schizophrenia and you are single. But they’re, you understand what I’m trying to say.

Rachel Star Withers: If you’re asking me, could I just find someone, yes, I could.

Gabe Howard: But you’d be unhappy in that relationship,

Rachel Star Withers: Right, yeah.

Gabe Howard: I know that schizophrenia wraps around your entire life, but you don’t feel that schizophrenia is holding you back. You just haven’t met the right person. And you have very high standards and you’re an impressive woman.

Rachel Star Withers: I do, I do.

Gabe Howard: You should have high standards.

Rachel Star Withers: Another way for high standards is shallow,

Gabe Howard: You’re not shallow,

Rachel Star Withers: That’s all I like to say, shallow,

Gabe Howard: You’re not.

Rachel Star Withers: High standards, shallow, whichever.

Gabe Howard: Luckily, luckily, we found a married couple, we found Andrew and Stephanie Downing, who are the authors of Marriage and Schizophrenia: Eyes on the Prize. I had no idea that this existed. But, Rachel, you’ve been aware of this book for quite some time, even before we interviewed them for the show.

Rachel Star Withers: And what’s cool is so Andrew, the husband, he has schizophrenia and they found out and then they got married. So, it wasn’t like they’d been together, and then suddenly something happened a few years. She went in knowing that this is something that they’re going to have to deal with together for the rest of their lives.

Gabe Howard: And what was really cool about the interview, which is coming up a little later, is we interviewed them both at the same time, and I thought they were very, very candid. It was really interesting to hear their thoughts on this idea that people with schizophrenia shouldn’t get married and shouldn’t have kids. Rachel, what do you think about that concept that people with schizophrenia either should not be in romantic relationships or, what we most often hear, cannot be in stable relationships?

Rachel Star Withers: I think people with schizophrenia can do anything relationship wise, that doesn’t mean it’s going to be easy, as is most things in life. The schizophrenia is just something else added on. The reason two people break up may have nothing to do with schizophrenia. It could be the mother in law’s terrible. I mean, it could be they’re just really annoying. They snore at night and you can’t take it. You can only take so many years without sleep, you know. So there’s like silly reasons and like serious reasons why people do or don’t get married or do or don’t stay married.

Gabe Howard: Backing off from schizophrenia for a moment, just talking about general mental illness, as longtime listeners of the show know, I have bipolar disorder and I have been divorced twice. And I’m fascinated at the number of people who hear that I have bipolar disorder, and hear that I got divorced, that’s it. That’s all they know. They weren’t around when I was married. They’re just meeting me for the first time. I’ve been happily married for eight years now. And they’re like, oh, you got divorced twice? Bipolar disorder, right?

Rachel Star Withers: I mean, Gabe, I’ve always assumed you ran them off.

Gabe Howard: I understand why people feel that way, I do. It is an easy conclusion to draw and much in the same way with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder is all encompassing. To say that it had zero to do with it is certainly disingenuous. Rachel, I feel that following these stereotypes removes agency and responsibility from the people involved. And I think this doesn’t give us an opportunity to grow. I believed the divorces were my fault and that allowed me to be very introspective, look into myself and grow as a person. If I would have taken the company line, oh, it’s because I have bipolar disorder, then I don’t know that I would have improved and I don’t think that I would be happily married now. How do you feel about people who just blame their love woes on schizophrenia and then don’t improve as a person? I imagine that you don’t feel good about that because I’ve never, ever seen you use schizophrenia as an excuse for anything.

Rachel Star Withers: I think if you want an excuse, you’re going to find an excuse. Schizophrenia is a really big one that you could be like, well, no one wants me because of this reason. And there’s other things like, yes, the medication makes you gain weight. Yes, the medication makes you want to sleep. Most of them have sexual side effects. And you can say all of that does contribute. Absolutely. But at the end of the day, I’m responsible for me and it’s my job to find a way to love my life, you know, because those same things I could immediately flip in like, oh, man, I have a really bad job. No one’s going to want to be with me. My hair is falling out. Mine is, so don’t feel like I’m just pointing out the guys, it’s mine too. You know, there’s so many things, though. If you want an excuse, you will always have one. That’s not the way to look at it. And honestly, no one wants to be in a relationship with that.

Gabe Howard: We talked about in preparation for this show, and you told me that you were on dating apps. Do you list yourself on dating apps? You know, hi, woman living with schizophrenia, likes dogs?

Rachel Star Withers: No, if it’s someone that I like and we want to meet up for a date, I want them to know that ahead of time. I rather them know going in, hey, she has a mental disorder, blah, blah, blah, the more you get attached to them and then bring it up three weeks later and then they leave, I rather you leave than me get attached to you. The downside of that is, yeah, it probably makes a lot of people leave, but those don’t sound like good people for me.

Gabe Howard: This, of course, is a rampant discussion on mental health message boards. When is the right time to tell? Some people advocate like you, immediately. Some people advocate putting it in your dating profile. Other people say before the first date, some people say in person on the first date, somebody says by the sixth date. Some people say it’s none of their business, tell them on your wedding day. And when you read through it, all of the reasons seem rational. Now, you said that you tell people before you meet them in person and the number one objection to that is, but isn’t that a lot? I mean, you’ve never even laid eyes on this person and they’re already sending you their health history. How did you arrive at that being the perfect time to tell them rather than in person or on date number three?

Rachel Star Withers: I don’t just like send this message being like, hey, by the way, guess what? Can’t wait to see you tomorrow night. But I am at a different situation than most people with schizophrenia. I have a Web presence. I make a lot of media and different things. And it’s usually listed in most of my bios. And I always make sure that we’ve either looked at each other’s Instagram’s or something where I have a lot of schizophrenia stuff. Twitter. Like if you were to look over any of my social media and you didn’t realize that I had it, I mean, I don’t know. If it’s a case where I’m not sure if they looked at my Instagram like we haven’t friended each other, I usually send them a link to something I’ve done or just straight up to my website. And I say, hey, by the way, this is me. I work in mental health making media and I also have schizophrenia. I’ve only had to do the text thing probably about like five to ten times. So it’s not like I’m constantly sending out these texts. Most of the time, people will just see the social media or whatnot.

Gabe Howard: It’s interesting about texting people before you go on a date with them and telling them that you have schizophrenia. I want to say that I am against this method. I think that it’s kind of a lot for somebody to see in a text before they’ve laid eyes on you, met you as a person, been in your orbit. All of that said my wife, Kendall, I texted it to her and we’re now married and just celebrated our eighth wedding anniversary. So it worked. And people are you know, Gabe, you’ve just said that you were against it, but you did it. Yeah, I had just had a relationship end where I decided that I was going to tell the person on like the third or fourth date and it took about six weeks to get there. So a lot of texting, a lot of phone calls, but we only hung out three or four times. And finally over lunch, I told the person, I said, you know, hey, I want to let you know I have bipolar disorder. And a couple of days later, she’s like, hey, it’s too much for me. And like you said, I got attached. The reason that I told that person is because I liked them. I enjoyed the six weeks. So here came Kendall on the same dating app. And I was like, I’m just going to get rid of you. And it all worked out. Do you think maybe there just is no right answer? It’s whatever happens to you happens to you?

Rachel Star Withers: I would say there’s absolutely no right answer, your gender, your age, your other situations, all of that stuff plays in. Every situation is different and every person is. You shouldn’t feel like you have to tell anyone up front. That’s your personal business.

Gabe Howard: You mentioned gender differences, do you think that there’s a gender difference between a woman telling a man that she lives with schizophrenia versus a man telling a woman or even in the LGBTQ community? Do you think it’s different than in the straight community? I know I’m asking you to speak for a lot of people. I know that’s a lot. But you’re the research queen. What have you found?

Rachel Star Withers: Our two episodes we did on gender and schizophrenia, definitely check those out if you haven’t yet.

Gabe Howard: They’re great, they’re great.

Rachel Star Withers: We learned that women with schizophrenia tend to have a better social outcome and longer lasting relationships and children than men with schizophrenia. Men tend to be diagnosed with schizophrenia, significantly younger, around late teens. And then you have women, the average age, which doesn’t apply to everybody, didn’t apply to me around like 30s to mid 30s. So there’s a very good chance that a lot of women are already married before it ever is a diagnosis. Whereas you have guys going in knowing, oh, no, I have to tell this person this thing, whereas the women you’re already married already probably have kids and then it comes up. So I think just the social constructs are kind of stacked against men in that situation. You know, we always have the joke in society that women are crazy. So I do think a woman would probably get away with saying she has a mental disorder and the other person taking it easier than if a man says it. And unfortunately, like we also learned with gender, with the males, usually people hear males with schizophrenia and they think violence.

Gabe Howard: I can imagine this would be hard for dating because your friends would be like, wait, you’re dating a schizophrenic? Doesn’t that mean that you will be X, Y, Z in your sleep? That’s unfortunate, because please listen to that episode. Schizophrenia and violence. Small, tiny percentage, yes, but there’s a small, tiny percentage of violence that exists in society. Schizophrenia doesn’t raise or lower it. It just sort of exists within it.

Rachel Star Withers: Let’s talk about that other person in the relationship, so the person who does not have a mental disorder, who is, and we’re talking just waiting to full on marriage, whatever went with that. And that’s kind of where I mean, you are a little bit different, Gabe, where you’ve had multiple marriages and I’ve had none nor been in even close to a stage where that would happen. And in a way, it’s good because I don’t have anything hanging over my head. I don’t feel that I impacted anyone’s life that negatively. And I’m not saying, you know, you are a horrible person, but same thing. You know, that is a lot to kind of weigh on you, that your symptoms did affect another person.

Gabe Howard: It’s true, and I imagine it’s a silver lining to being single. I know I’m prying. Rachel, thank you for being vulnerable, but do you feel that the fact that you’ve never been married is sort of a plus for you? Because, like you said, you don’t have any regrets. Your schizophrenia did not impact a love interest.

Rachel Star Withers: It’s a good and bad thing. While I haven’t had to deal with those negatives, I also haven’t gotten any of the positives. I’m sure you had great moments, positive moments in that marriage. And I think that’s something hard for a lot of people with mental disorders who are single. They’re like, well, I want that. I want to be in love. I want to have someone. When you look at just your support network, you kind of think, oh, well, what if I’m alone at age, such and such? You know what’s going to happen to me after my parents pass away, after, you know, my friends get married and have their own families? Like, what about my support system? And they’ve even found research that people with schizophrenia, when you’re unhappy with your relationship status, you will have worse symptoms than those who are happy with their current relationship.

Gabe Howard: In many ways, it’s one of the meanest things about schizophrenia that the disease process is impacted by external factors. If you’re in a healthy relationship, your symptoms are less. If you’re in an unhappy relationship, your symptoms are worse. But now if you’re in no relationship, your symptoms are less or worse, depending on how you feel about that. Rachel, as a single woman, are you happy being single and therefore getting the benefits of less symptoms or are you unhappy being single?

Rachel Star Withers: I personally am very happy with my relationship of nothingness right now, like, I don’t feel like, oh, wow, I really wish, you know, I was married, I really wish, you know, and at age 35, as a woman, most women are either married or they’re not happy that they are still single at thirty five, that’s not like a good thing. They’re like, you know, really throwing that net out there, whatever I can catch at this point. So I do think it’s different. I actually get asked quite a lot, why are you single? Different things like that. And I’m like, oh, you don’t know me, that’s why.

Gabe Howard: Rachel, you kind of brought up an interesting point there, that you’re 35 years old and you’re single and that society doesn’t like that. I know that my 35 year old single female friends who do not have schizophrenia just get all kinds of pressure to just relationship up right now, because after all, the biological clock is ticking. You’re not getting any younger. Do you get more or less pressure because of the schizophrenia in comparison to your non schizophrenic 35 year old contemporaries?

Rachel Star Withers: I get a lot less, and that’s been something that’s kind of come up and I don’t really let people know that it hurts me, but it does. It will kind of come up like subtlely.

Rachel Star Withers: It can be frustrating because I feel that the schizophrenia label is just so like put on certain people and that even people closest to you, your family, have these biases against you. And they don’t mean to. They absolutely don’t mean to. But it is what it is.

Gabe Howard: But an unintentional bias is still a bias. Do you think that people would be surprised if you got married?

Rachel Star Withers: I absolutely think they would be surprised if I met someone and I was in a relationship and then got married. I think it would have some bad sides, too, because, oh, well, thank goodness someone saved her.

Gabe Howard: Really, even though you’ve been living for 35 years all by yourself, if you got married tomorrow, the full credit would pass to the spouse?

Rachel Star Withers: I really think so, and, oh, thank God we were so worried about her and OK, now we don’t have to, you know, worry she’s taken care of. Like, I really do think that there would be a bad side to that of just seeing me. Like, yeah. As if that other person is my caretaker as opposed to a spouse.

Gabe Howard: When it comes to schizophrenia, caregivers are very important. The problem, I think, is I don’t know that we have like a good definition of caregiver. In many cases, the term caregiver is simply given to the person standing next to the person with schizophrenia. I would like a more robust definition. A caregiver is somebody who is actually giving care on a daily basis, and the person that they’re giving care to cannot live without that care. That is what I consider a caregiver. For example, when I had surgery, my wife was my caregiver for a couple of days because I couldn’t stand up without her. That seems like caregiving to me. But two years after surgery, when people are like, oh, well, that’s Gabe and his caregiver. What? What care is she giving? Well, you know, because you live with mental illness. OK, so you’re literally just calling her my caregiver because she’s standing next to me. Good marriages are based on being equal. And for the most part, people don’t consider people living with schizophrenia equal to their caregivers.

Rachel Star Withers: And that’s a very important point, especially for anybody who is looking to get married in the near future, is to think about that and even set up some kind of like boundaries because one partner is going to get really burned out quickly if they feel that they’re that caregiver, if they feel that they have to take responsibility over this other person, that’s just too much for anybody to handle. And that’s why support systems are so important. It shouldn’t just be you two against the world. It doesn’t work in most normal relationships. And it’s definitely not going to work when you’re dealing with schizophrenia thrown in there, too. Make sure that you stay in contact with your friends, that you bring your parents around whenever you feel comfortable, if possible, let them come to the therapist with you or the doctor at least like get to see that side of you and understand. Even for the partner without the mental disorder, it’s important that they have a support group, too. You shouldn’t be their only sounding board because they’re going to get frustrated, they’re going to get stressed out. They’re going to need other friends to talk to and be like, hey, he did this. And I don’t know if this is schizophrenia or that’s just what being married to a man is like. So both sides need a support system and they need to be able to talk openly without judgment. If there comes a time when one of them needs more care than others, you should already kind of know what you’re going to do, kind of have that plan in place. So, hey, I’m going to be making sure that you take your meds every day when you get sicker. I’m going to help with this. All right, cool. And then when you have your throat surgery next month, I’m going to buy you so much ice cream.

Gabe Howard: Rachel, people ask me about my marriage all the time and they want to know the differences between my marriage and regular marriage, and that’s the first thing that I want to say. There is no difference. I do have a regular marriage. In a regular marriage, there will be challenges. It’s for better, for worse, in sickness and in health. That applies to all marriages. I just happen to have this sickness that I need help managing. And some of that help is very, very tiny. Most days, the only help that I need is my wife reminds me to make a doctor’s appointment, not because I’m not managing my mental health, but because the minutia of life gets in the way and she’s like, oh, shoot, you need a physical this week. Don’t forget to work in your blood work and pick up the dry cleaning because your blood work is next to the dry cleaner. That’s just what life is like. I’m surprised at the number of people that are like, well, no, no, no, no. Your marriage must be completely and entirely different because of this one thing. It’s not. We can’t figure out what to have for dinner either. We’re largely not special. I think that is a key component.

Rachel Star Withers: And we’ll be right back after a message from our sponsor.

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Rachel Star Withers: And we’re back talking about love, dating and marriage while having schizophrenia.

Gabe Howard: Rachel, we have a great guest interview, and you were very impressed with their online presence, their book. Honestly, it’s one of my favorites, but I might be a sucker for love stories.

Rachel Star Withers: Yes, Andrew and Stephanie Downing, who wrote Marriage and Schizophrenia: Eyes on the Prize, and they are a married couple. He has schizophrenia. Whenever you’re looking for books about schizophrenia, not many of them are really upbeat. And then you think, oh, wow, marriage and schizophrenia. I’m thinking that can also work as a horror title. You know, this could go a lot of different ways. And I was reading different parts of their book and I just really loved their attitude to take on life. And I was surprised by the interview, Gabe. I don’t know what I was expecting, I was just so taken that they were like an open book with us.

Gabe Howard: I thought they were super cool, let’s listen right now.

Rachel Star Withers: Today we have Andrew and Stephanie Downing, the authors of Marriage and Schizophrenia: Eyes on the Prize. Andrew, first of all, I’m excited to talk to you, a fellow person with schizophrenia. What’s up?

Andrew Downing: Hey, I’m doing good, how are you?

Rachel Star Withers: Very good, and especially to talk to the both of you. Earlier in the podcast, I said so I’m single, pretty much forever, so I don’t have much to put in when it comes to having a major mental disorder and long term relationships. So I’m excited to talk to both of you, inspired to talk to the both of you. I want to jump right in. What has been the biggest obstacle?

Andrew Downing: We’ve been through so much, we’ve been together for 18 years and we’ve gone through so many different periods, and if you look at the first period of our relationship, there was different challenges and obstacles at that time. And now fast forward to 18 years later. Now there’s new obstacles. And so schizophrenia has just really brought us on a really long, different journey with so many different angles and all the questions you could ask us are going to be different at different times in our life.

Stephanie Downing: As I reflect back, the biggest obstacle was when Andrew was in the middle of a psychotic episode, meaning when he did not have a good sense of reality and he was having hallucinations, he was delusional. We were engaged at the time and he ended up in the psych ward. The night before he ended up in the psych ward, he gave my engagement ring back and it felt like the Andrew that I fell in love with, the Andrew that I knew died on me. It truly felt like a death. And the person I knew and fell in love with was gone. And I would say that that was the biggest obstacle showing up at the psych ward and visiting him there and realizing that this person that I love is very, very sick. And I was young. And so we’ve been together now for 18 years. That was the most difficult time. And that was 16 years ago.

Rachel Star Withers: So that was kind of the biggest obstacle right there at the beginning, so you got the hardest part over. That’s amazing. But what have been some of like the constant stressors throughout your marriage?

Stephanie Downing: The big stressors, I would say, is just instability. Also, a big stressor for us has been health care. Medication is a stressor, finding the balance between working through challenges and then also just accepting challenges.

Andrew Downing: Yeah, and when I was first diagnosed with schizophrenia, I was taking a load of medication and now you fast forward to this part of my life and I’m on a lot less medication. That has made life a lot easier for me in general. The medication and the side effects have been so intense and dealing with that from the age of 19 and now I’m 38 has brought so many challenges. Like Steph mentioned, the health care as well, just the stress of not knowing that I can afford my medications or finding the right health care plan so I can continue to take my medications. All these hoops that we’ve had to jump through around schizophrenia with medication and health care has definitely been an obstacle and a major stressor.

Rachel Star Withers: Speaking of medication, how do you two deal with changes, so, for instance, if the doctor wants to change you to a different type of medication, do you talk to Stephanie about it? Do you all weigh out the consequences? Because believe me, I understand side effects.

Andrew Downing: Yeah.

Rachel Star Withers: Yeah, I think how much it’s disrupted my life. I can’t imagine also being a parent and having a spouse with it.

Andrew Downing: It’s an incredible challenge and that probably eight or nine years ago, maybe a little bit more, because of the medications and the side effects, trying to keep up to Steph and trying to be a good husband for her and trying to be a good father. I didn’t know that I could keep doing it. The side effects from the medication were so intense, they’re still intense. And just trying to keep up to people that are not on those medications was incredibly difficult. And there’s been many times in my life I thought, I don’t know if I can do this anymore. So I just feel fortunate to have survived. And fortunately, Stephanie has been patient and just willing to deal with my ups and downs and more importantly, my downs. You know, how willing she was to sacrifice to be in my space and allow me to heal.

Stephanie Downing: When I first started dating Andrew, he was on a very low amount of medication and he was so lively and talkative and energetic. And that’s the guy I fell in love with and I didn’t really know any better. And when he started getting sick to the point where he was starting to have more symptoms, he then had to increase again. And he was so different. He was so tired. He was so just lethargic. And he looked sick to me and that was medication side effects. And so that was very new to me to experience that. And that went on for years that he was just so tired and he seemed so sick to me. And I would question like, is everything OK with us? Like, does he just, is it things just not going well in our marriage? Is he unhappy? But a lot of that was truly the side effects of the meds. And we’ve watched him try to adjust and tolerate. But it’s had so many effects that it’s really a lot to talk about, just even thinking about how he’s had to change his lifestyle. And if we want to go on a trip making sure he has his medication and thankfully he can be the night driver because if he doesn’t take his nightly meds, he can stay up all hours of the night. But then he’s kind of punished in the next day. We all kind of feel a little punished when he’s so tired throughout the whole entire day. So I think a lot of people think that people go off their meds because they’re feeling better and they don’t need them anymore. But I think another part of it is that people truly feel sick and tired on their medication.

Andrew Downing: I was not very honest with my medications right away. I didn’t really want to even talk to doctors about my medications. I just wanted to avoid doctors. And I was very closed off as far as discussing medication with people in general. I was more comfortable with Steph and we did and continue to talk just about everything. And she’s been so great for that. We just have gotten the pattern of communicating and communicating as much as possible. And I’ve betrayed that confidence many times with the medications and not told her that I was going to not take the medications anymore. But she’s definitely been a process of are you on enough meds? Do you need more? Do you need to talk to a doctor about this? But in general, I would say that Steph has acted as my therapist and my med provider and just somebody who I should like, everything should be should go through her. And that role that she played, that instrumental role, that being a therapist, being a med provider in a marriage was a lot of stress for her. And I believe that got really frustrating after a while. And so eventually I needed to find a way to do this more on my own where it was less of a burden for her so she could have more of a regular life. And we’ve transitioned into that now where, you know, I don’t talk to her about the meds as much. And I’m really consistent and locked in with what I want to do. We’ve communicated about everything and usually been on the same page with what medications to take and what to do next.

Rachel Star Withers: You’re not just married, you also have children. Your children are pretty young. How have you dealt with pretty much your schizophrenia being part of the family relationship? Do they know? Has it caused any issues?

Stephanie Downing: It has been pretty normal overall, and both Andrew and I work in the mental health field, so I think that helps a lot. And our daughter is 14 now and our son is 7. And so it’s just kind of where they’re at developmentally to know how to talk about it with them. Our daughter just read our book last summer, I believe we said it seems like a PG-13 book. And she had questions, but she’s very mature and actually, you know, considering genetics and things that are passed down, I mean, I can already see anxiety and depression kind of forming and, you know, the concerns about her future mental health. But because Andrew and I are so open and honest and we work in the field, I think that conversation and that encouraging communication and comfort talking about what’s going on has been really helpful. We try to take things seriously at times and then at other times we have to take things lightly and joke about things and use humor and just try to keep it balanced that way a bit.

Andrew Downing: Yeah, and we have a 7 year old boy and we’re driving down the road, and there was something on the radio about mental health and my son James in the back, he goes, hey, dad, you have mental health, right? And I was like, yeah, yeah, I got mental health. My daughter’s in the car, too. And we just started laughing. So Ella being 14, she gets it and she says the word schizophrenia, whereas James is more like, oh, dad has mental health or I think he says schizophrenia once in a while. But it’s a total different experience. I’ve tried to use mental health and my journey as inspiration for them too and not been afraid to tell them, yeah, I am mentally ill because living a lie or pretending that I don’t have it is really, really bad for me. I have to be up front if I want to feel close to people. They usually need to know that I have schizophrenia and I have this issue because it’s such a major part of my life. And so my kids are no different. You know, I feel like they need to know what’s going on in my life.

Rachel Star Withers: When it came to having children, were you worried at all about them having schizophrenia or how that how Andrew’s schizophrenia might affect that?

Stephanie Downing: I would say yes, because of the reactions of others for one. I think it’s probably people’s number one question that they ask us when we’re sharing or talking about the kids and having that fear. And I think that it’s there, it’s in the back of my head but, like Andrew tries to remind me and I try to remind him, is that with schizophrenia or with mental illness, there’s also so many strengths in a person that we try to just really focus on those and try to build those up and build those skills. Because whether our children end up with schizophrenia, which does run in Andrew’s side of the family, even beyond Andrew, or if they end up with anxiety or depression or anything, it is just to have those skills to be able to manage it. And then even beyond that, the hope of a recovery.

Andrew Downing: Right away, at the beginning of our relationship, we had certain medical professionals, teachers and different people in places of power or influence who were definitely worried about Stephanie having a relationship and having children and we were told don’t have children. And I think that attitude has changed a little bit. And I’d like to say that I’m more on that revolutionary side or that really super hopeful side that says, why do we have to be so afraid of schizophrenia? Because I enjoy my life. I’m a happy human being. I like my daily life. And sometimes I feel more healthy or happy than people that don’t have schizophrenia. So other people in my life I see are struggling with alcoholism and they’re struggling with drug addiction or they’re struggling with this, you name it. What life isn’t going to have a struggle? And why do we have to think that schizophrenia is this just awful, horrible thing that you can never enjoy your life on? Part of my training as a peer support specialist was really rejecting the notion that schizophrenia was this endless, hopeless struggle and that you couldn’t get better and that you couldn’t be happy. So I’ve tried to have that forward thinking and not being afraid. And Stephanie has really helped me understand that if we can be there for our kids and talk to them and have this open relationship and be able to talk about mental illness and not be afraid of it. And if we had early intervention, we even have less to worry about.

Rachel Star Withers: That’s absolutely awesome, Andrew, I love that attitude, obviously, schizophrenia is a very serious mental disorder and whatnot, but I’m always like, you know, it’s not that bad. I was like in a lot of things could be worse, you know, compared to the world’s problems of like, you know. Oh, but that’s a really great attitude. And I love your answer. I have so many people ask me, should people who have mental disorders have children? And I’m like, I don’t have any children. So I don’t feel like I should answer that because I’ve never even been remotely in the situation. It hasn’t happened. So it’s really interesting to get to talk to you two who have already been there and have such a great outlook. What advice do you have for couples who are thinking about getting married and one of them has a very serious mental disorder like schizophrenia?

Andrew Downing: Steph, you want to go first on that one? You took the big risk, you were the one, you’re like, yep, I’m going to sign up for this. So I just feel like you might have the best advice right away on this one.

Stephanie Downing: Ok. Again, communication is a huge part of a healthy relationship, and that got us through a lot. That communication piece is huge and we needed to talk about things, we needed to process things. And I needed to know that he was going to be receptive of what I was going to say. And we got to this point in our relationship when we talk about love. And a lot of that was can you put that other person’s needs and happiness before yourself? And I tried to do that for him. And I think he could see that. He saw me model that through the time and the sacrifices that I made to be with him, to show up, to leave my college dorm and show up at the hospital and visit him there and just to be there with him through those really difficult times. And then in turn, I could see that he wanted to do that for me. And if his sickest moments, I didn’t see that and that hurt. But pretty much the majority of the time I knew that he wanted to put me first and make sure that he was going to be able to meet my needs in a relationship. And so I saw that potential and I knew that we were going to work through a lot together. But because he had that desire and he wanted to make those choices, I can tell that, you know, hopefully with the time and practice and training in every relationship, you want to teach different things. And now it’s trying to get them to load the dishwasher properly. But I knew that he was responsive and receptive to what I wanted.

Andrew Downing: Yeah, and advice I would give to other couples or maybe someone that has a serious mental illness and is considering being in a relationship would be to make sure you feel prepared for an incredible journey and climbing a mountain. It’s going to be difficult. And if you’re taking a lot of medications that are making you super tired and sick, being in a relationship is going to make that more difficult. And it has been a really big challenge for me to have a wife and have kids. And I felt like at the beginning of the journey and throughout different periods of our life, that mountain has felt like it’s just too hard to climb. And thankfully, I’ve been able to keep going. But I think you need to ask yourself what kind of intensity or what kind of pain can you put up with? What can you deal with? And everybody’s going to be different. So everybody has a unique set of challenges and has different stressors. And so my advice might not be the best for somebody else in a relationship situation. I have a background in hockey. And I played hockey through two torn rotator cuffs and three traumatic brain injuries. And so being in a marriage and having kids, I was used to training my body and used to taking a punishment. And so, I just want to make it clear that it is a big adventure and it’s not something to be taken lightly because you’re joining two lives together and possibly more with kids. And it’s not something to just rush into. And I feel so lucky that I found Steph because I feel that most other people I knew couldn’t have put up with me. I was so lucky to find her because she was willing to deal with some really intense, weird stuff.

Stephanie Downing: It just keeps ringing in my mind to take your vows seriously in sickness or in death. I mean, I did take those seriously and as I went, I think I was 21 when we got married, pretty young. And when I said those vows in sickness and death, like, I knew that that must mean somebody is going to get sick, somebody is going to struggle. And how am I going to respond to that?

Rachel Star Withers: I have a question for you, Stephanie, when Andrew may be starting to have a hard time, whether it’s an episode or maybe side effects kicking in from medication, how do you know that’s coming and how do you deal with it? How do you bring that up to him?

Stephanie Downing: So that is difficult to answer, but one thing that I do look for is irritability and anger and frustration. There’s the right time or better times to talk to somebody about things. My children know not to talk to me when I’m tired or hungry. They’re just not going to get a good answer from me in the right tone and stuff. So looking for that with Andrew has been helpful. If he is seeming really agitated that I’m going to back off. But then it really, truly is important to confront at times. And as long as they know that you are somebody that is going to be consistent in their life, that you want to be the person that is accountable for keeping them accountable. I think if they can have that sense and use wisdom or discernment and it’s a good time to talk about it, then you’re just going to bring it up and you’re going to let them know how you’re feeling or I’m feeling and just letting them be aware. And this seems really off right now. And so not being afraid to have those conversations, but also considering the right timing of it.

Andrew Downing: I would just add too that Steph has done a good job of challenging me on things that she was certain that I was being delusional or that I needed to change courses in my life or needed to recognize that I was feeling mentally ill. And she hasn’t got it perfect every time. But she has taken those chances and been willing to say, Andrew, you’re not doing well right now. I think you need to recognize that these thoughts that you’re having are they’re delusional or that they’re wrong. And that you need to make an adjustment in your life. And there’s been other times in my life where she’s backed off at just the right time and just given me space to feel. And so that is such a hard thing to know. Which one does he need? Does he need this challenged? Does he need this confrontation or does he need space? And that is that is very difficult.

Stephanie Downing: But I will say when we work through the chaos and the challenge, that there’s usually a lot of growth and healing after that and a lot that we both learn from the experience. So it does prove worth it.

Rachel Star Withers: Obviously, all marriages have conflict. Does any normal marital issues ever get blamed on the schizophrenia?

Andrew Downing: That’s a good question. I think at times, maybe once in a while it does, I think, normal things get changed into schizophrenia things. But Steph has been amazing for one, just not accepting the label. She doesn’t see me as somebody with schizophrenia and therefore she doesn’t have this set expectation from that. And I think that is a really destructive thing. So if you see somebody as a label or somebody with schizophrenia, then you’re going to have that problem more often with regular things are getting attributed to schizophrenia. And she has been so great of not seeing me as somebody with schizophrenia, but more just as a person, just seeing me as Andrew and that has really helped.

Rachel Star Withers: Hearing you both speak, you just hear an absolutely wonderful, very happy, supportive couple, the schizophrenia takes a back seat, which is awesome. So I actually want to end the interview with Stephanie, if you could tell us about Andrew and then Andrew about her.

Stephanie Downing: Ok, so Andrew was on my crush list in ninth grade, and he was just this amazing person that was very skilled at hockey and then he was this talented or is this talented musician that can play right now every instrument. And not only that, but he paints, too. And when I first started hanging around with Andrew, which was like in college when we first started dating, looking at his paintings and the depth and the creativity of his brain and the way it works is so fascinating to me. And we just kind of went on a journey together. I just knew that he had these qualities and these values that I loved and he was so sensitive and easy to talk to. I fell in love. And he’s been an absolutely wonderful husband. We do have our difficult times, as everybody does. I just am so thankful to be with him and I’m proud of him.

Andrew Downing: Stephanie has been on my radar since ninth grade as well. That’s a long history. And, you know, I have actually a pretty hard time talking about the subject without just starting to cry like a baby because she really saved my life. You know, she came to me when I was at absolute rock bottom and was basically the only person willing to get in my space, not just be from a distance or say one thing here and there and just be really distant. She was not afraid of schizophrenia, was not afraid of mental illness, was not afraid of anything. She came into my life and stayed there. And I was so lucky to fall in love with her. She was willing to go somewhere really uncomfortable and be willing to be in somebody’s space that was kind of scary. And I was scary when I was 19. I was a kind of a person you didn’t want to be around because you were afraid of what was going on. And because of my success in hockey, my name was known across the country. And yet at that time, 19 years old, nobody wanted to be around me except for Stephanie. She saw me walking on the hill and she called me up and has changed my life. And I feel so fortunate to be with her and to watch her grow through all of this and to be such an impactful human being in the mental health service world. She’s getting her graduate degree now, and I’m just so proud of her. She’s such an asset for this community, for kids in the community, for adults. She has served people all the years of my life. I’m so proud of her.

Rachel Star Withers: That’s awesome. Is there anything else that you two would like to share with our listeners here on Inside Schizophrenia?

Stephanie Downing: I would say just having hope is such a big deal and to know that we strongly support the mental health field and believe that having wraparound services is so important, but then also just knowing that if it’s your neighbor, if it’s a friend and you’re just there to support through having those conversations and being willing to go in those uncomfortable topics is really important. But having hope and the value of loving somebody in a way that sometimes you do have to have some sacrifice.

Andrew Downing: Our culture, we’ve moved towards isolation so much, and I know that part of that is to do with COVID right now, but I would just encourage others to get involved in other people’s lives and not from a distance and not from a safe place, but really get up close and personal and spend time with people and reach out and try to make a difference. Not just from a comfortable space at home, but to get out there in the community and try to reach people that are struggling. Try to help others avoid isolation.

Rachel Star Withers: Awesome, so I know I have the book here, Marriage and Schizophrenia. Is there anything else you want to promote?

Andrew Downing: We do have our book available, Marriage and Schizophrenia: Eyes on the Prize, it is on Amazon and most other places for the paperback copy, but you can get the ebook for a dollar right now. Also, my music is available out there. My debut solo jazz album, Fighting Time. So Andrew Downing, Fighting Time is available on all the streaming platforms. Check it out. I think you’ll enjoy it.

Stephanie Downing: It’s awesome for sure, he plays all instruments, and writes the music.

Andrew Downing: So to clarify, I don’t play all instruments, but yes, I do play piano, bass, drums and guitar on that album.

Rachel Star Withers: How can our listeners find you? Are you all on any social media?

Andrew Downing: Andrew Downing music is on YouTube. I’m also on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, Andrew Downing music, the social media platforms that we have are more geared towards the music. But I also put stuff on there for our book as well.

Rachel Star Withers: Thank you so much for spending this time talking to us. It’s good and bad, but you’re a rarity. It was incredibly hard for me doing research for this episode. Getting to meet you both and hear you talk and how just absolutely uplifting you are. And just honestly, #relationship goals. Like it’s really, really awesome. Definitely I know giving our listeners and me also a lot of hope.

Andrew Downing: Awesome. That’s really great.

Stephanie Downing: Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Andrew Downing: Yeah, thank you so much.

Gabe Howard: And we’re back. Rachel, what are your thoughts?

Rachel Star Withers: I was taken away, you know, the whole time they were talking, I loved it, it was very sweet. I think you can hear in their voices when they’re talking back and forth and sometimes you hear his voice begin to crack a little and you kind of hear it in hers that you could just see that they’ve both been through a lot and they both love each other a whole lot. I don’t know. I was so inspired by them. If I’m going to get married, that’s what I want. I want that kind of partnership.

Gabe Howard: It was nice, it was hopeful.

Rachel Star Withers: And I absolutely love the way that they had already brought it up to their children, the young son saying you have mental health. Like those kids, you know, are able to ask questions. They’re able to be knowledgeable and not be afraid of stereotypes.

Gabe Howard: The schizophrenia was just something that as a couple they had to deal with. Like managing the household or taking care of the children or taking care of the dog or planning a vacation, manage schizophrenia was just something on the list. It wasn’t the focal point, but it was important and something that they as a couple had to address. And I thought that was amazing because so often mental illness permeates too much and that’s all they focus on or one person tries to handle alone and not utilize the resource of their spouse or support system. And that never turns out well either. I liked their management style. They didn’t ignore schizophrenia, but they also didn’t make it the focal point of their marriage. They made each other the focal point of their marriage.

Rachel Star Withers: And this sounds like a mushy thing to say, Gabe, especially you know me, I’m pretty cool, but they gave me hope. They really did. You know, just how uplifting they were and the fact that they both kind of were like, hey, this is life. Relationships are not easy for anyone. Recently, a psychiatrist, who I only went to once, asked me why I was single, and she kept pressing me for answers. And I was getting really annoyed about this because I was there because I have severe depression also, and I needed a medication change. I understand why she was asking. She was asking pretty much how was I responding with sexual side effects of what I was currently on. And I’m like, no, I need medicine so I won’t hurt myself not to go on the dating game. And a lot of times I feel people with schizophrenia are like me. We have so much to deal with, hallucinations, delusions, depressions. Just getting out of bed, taking a shower some days is monumental. So trying to find a relationship, a person to date, is the least important thing on my list. But listening to Andrew and Stephanie, it really helped me see that a relationship wasn’t out of the picture for me. It didn’t have to be, you know, the last thing on my list, it was more of a possibility. Thank you so much for listening, like, share, subscribe with all of your friends and family, and we will see you next time here on Inside Schizophrenia.

Announcer: Inside Schizophrenia is presented by PsychCentral.com, America’s largest and longest operating independent mental health website. Your host, Rachel Star Withers, can be found online at RachelStarLive.com. Co-host Gabe Howard can be found online at gabehoward.com. For questions, or to provide feedback, please e-mail talkback@PsychCentral.com. The official website for Inside Schizophrenia is PsychCentral.com/IS. Thank you for listening, and please, share widely.

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Is Your Brain Tired? You May Be Mentally Fatigued

It seems like everyone I talk to lately is tired, and not because they’re suddenly more active or more productive than usual. In fact, most of them can’t tell you exactly why they’re so tired, they just are. This isn’t to say people aren’t busy, they are — just in new and taxing ways. But these new kinds of busyness and the “new normal” brought on by the coronavirus is causing many of us to feel mentally fatigued.

Mental fatigue is something that occurs when your brain goes into overdrive. You can’t stop thinking, worrying, anticipating, planning, etc., and this constant parade of changing thoughts can lead to exhaustion. This isn’t uncommon, most of us have experienced this at one point or another, usually when there’s a big project or event coming up. But lately mental fatigue seems to be the rule rather than the exception for many.

Why Your Brain May Be More Tired Than Normal

Most of us feel we’re rolling with the punches to some degree while the world around us changes. But the truth is these changes take a psychological toll on us all. You may be working, but your work has changed. Kids are in school, but school has changed. You may be healthy, but for how long? And there are marches, riots, and an upcoming election to consider. No matter how much you try to focus on your own small piece of the world the world around you is having an effect on you. 

In a normal environment, you know what to expect and how to navigate things. You probably have work under control, school schedules are structured, and the regular chaos of life ebbs and flows at a fairly predicable rate. Sometimes you’re stressed, sometimes you’re not, and occasionally you feel mentally fatigued when things are particularly crazy. 

But our current state of prolonged instability and change is something different. It’s like noise that’s always playing around us as we try to get through the day-to-day. Our brains naturally try to assign structure and normalcy to our personal environments, but the current noise can be deafening and distracting, and is changing all the time making it all that more difficult to put things in order and operate normally. This means your brain must work even harder to try and be productive and create routines and stability. 

What Happens When Your Brain Is Tired for Too Long?

If you work your shoulders or legs too hard, they get sore, right? Well, your brain may not become sore like overworked quads, but it absolutely shows signs of overuse. 

Mental fatigue has several tell-tale signs. See if any of these sounds familiar:

Inability to focus. When your brain is tired, it isn’t working at optimal levels. Just like your legs won’t carry you through marathon after marathon (or even fractions of that for most of us), your brain will eventually slow down too. This often shows up as an inability to stay focused on tasks and responsibilities, leaving you feeling scattered, disorganized and impeding your ability to complete tasks successfully. 

Physical exhaustion. Yes, your brain affects your body. When your brain is tired, it can make your whole body feel tired, effectively signally that you need a break. Shutting down through sleep is our normal physiological method for relieving the stress on our brain. Unfortunately, mental exhaustion itself can make sleeping difficult.

Difficulty sleeping. While you may be tired and your brain may need a break, it can often be very difficult to turn things off. The overstimulation caused by the environment around us means that we may not sleep as well. How many times have you tried to solve the world’s problems while laying in bed? Or stewed over the things you should have said or done earlier in the day?

Constant feeling of stress and anxiety. Mental exhaustion and the persistent noise around us can lead to a constant feeling of stress and anxiety. It can feel like there’s ALWAYS something to worry about, so even if your corner of the world is handled and organized, there’s no relief or sense of calm. Over time, unrelenting stress and anxiety can lead to depression as well. 

Lack of patience or sudden bursts of anger. If your fuse suddenly seems shorter than normal and you find yourself feeling irritable and angry all the time it can be a result of an overworked brain. When you’re not operating at optimal levels and feel scattered, tired, and stressed it can be very difficult to exercise the appropriate levels of patience.

Any of these ringing a bell?

Tips To Rest and Reset

This can be harder to do than it sounds. Turning off and tuning out the noise around us initially requires concentration which is difficult when you are already having a tough time concentrating. But the focus in this case is on being mindful and calm in order to give yourself a break.

Mental exhaustion won’t just get better — you need to give your brain a rest and break the cycle. Any of these can be helpful.

Get outside. Nature is calming, so use what’s around you. Being mindful of what you’re seeing and experiencing. 

Turn off the TV and internet. There’s bad news everywhere right now, don’t let yourself be inundated with it. Try music instead.

Exercise. This is a good idea for so many reasons. By getting physical you’ll relieve stress, sleep better, and improve your physical condition. 

Read. The escape into something that has nothing to do with the world around you can provide a healthy break.

The longer we let mental fatigue continue the harder it becomes to break the cycle. Over time you may experience physical issues, emotional problems, or full-scale burnout. And these all leave you incapable of navigating your life in a healthy and happy way. 

The post Is Your Brain Tired? You May Be Mentally Fatigued first appeared on World of Psychology.

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