gayingnotpraying

[gayingnotpraying]

and because this is soooo hard to grasp as a concept: religions can preach peace and still be and act like a cult. cults can be harmful and still be promoting underlying messages that are good like racial equality. you quoting all these good parts messages in all these religions still doesnt make them Not A Cult lol! but ok! go off

Dumbasses who have never talked to a non-christian in their life will say that religions are cults because they preach salvation and give you rules to keep you in line like y’all do realize that hell isn’t a universal belief???? That Judaism teaches that god wants his people to be just and compassionate??? That Buddhism is about liberation from suffering??? That Hinduism teaches reincarnation? That Islam believes in a just and merciful god? That there are an endless number of diverse and nuanced beliefs that various indigenous peoples struggle to reclaim every day? And you all have the nerve to lump us all in together with the likes of catholicism and jehovah’s witnesses just because you’re too fucking smug and lazy to get off your ass leave your own bubble and read a god damn wikipedia article?

[gayingnotpraying]

for what it's worth, my worldview comes from a southeast asian perspective of being raised in what is a half fundamentalist and half traditionalist orientation of Islam in southeast asia that is becoming increasingly fundamentalist. so stop assuming that everyone who disagrees with you comes from some atheist ex christian perspective. stop strawmanning people as an out-group simply because you dont agree with their takes. im not, and my country isnt primarily christian or muslim. id go out on a limb to say ive interacted directly with hinduism, christianity, islam and taoism more than youve even read about them! essentially though, you ARE right. your individual opinion and experiences with religion doesnt give you authority over the rest of the world, which includes this idea that religions simply arent cults because you choose to only see the simplified and good preached messages as opposed to the lived applications of religious teachings. youre just not going to be 100% in the right in issues that simply arent so cut and dry as much as you like to think so. because if you say "dont say religions are cults" i will say "what makes them distinguishable from the other" and for as long as i can find a religion that acts in the way you define cults to be, then any religion could be a cult.

just bc you interpret cult one way and so do others, doesnt mean that it is the only definition nor does it mean that youre in the right for it. it especially does not mean your context was clear with such flimsy terms like cult. tell me what a cult is! you say i know damn well what it is then define it, since it's so cut and dry! if you define cult by its practices, then the religions youve listed are cults in certain locations/cultures. if you define it by what a lot of researchers in the area do, then it is functionally indistinguishable from religions (charismatic leader, shared ideological beliefs, high involvement expected). if you define it by bringing harm to individuals, then a lot of religions do that too. so you, refusing to even acknowledge that there is a potential counter argument to your emotionally charged argument that "how dare you lump xyz religion with catholicism and mormonism" is just not good enough! define a cult and i will show you an area where a recognized religion fits the description. show me where the distinction lies clearly and i can show you examples where it doesnt.

your refusal to have any kind of good faith argument given the fact that what constitutes a cult differs (not a merriam webster definition you presumptuous weirdo, these are takes by sociologists who do study world religions, and probably have more knowledge regarding religions across the world, indigenous, world religions and more, than either of us) among individuals/perspectives, and then not defining what a cult is while stating that it's So Obvious makes your post unclear and easy to find faults in. you also make a lot of sweeping statements about other religions while coming across as someone who knows little about them (saying not every religion has a concept of hell and then listing islam as a followup example is laughable! and the merciful god in islam is only merciful to followers. any non muslim will burn in hell, as good of a person as they may be).

so tell me how im the one interacting in bad faith when you cant interact at all without sounding like you know nothing and are just too hurt by ex christians to hear an alternative belief by someone who isnt ex christian.

and again, i never said modern day religions like the ones you listed ARE cults. i just said they damn well seemed like one at time of conception and damn well could be one. youre so aggressive and using religions you seem to know so little about and for what? you list all these positive traits about these religions that idk youve even seen in person or spoke to an actual follower of face to face, or been to the places of worship. and then to be laughably inaccurate about one of the biggest world religions? and you still think youre like the smartest person in the room while refusing to even define your context? tell me you cant write a good essay without telling me you cant write a good essay because you dont even know how to define a key term in the very basis of your whole argument.

Dumbasses who have never talked to a non-christian in their life will say that religions are cults because they preach salvation and give you rules to keep you in line like y’all do realize that hell isn’t a universal belief???? That Judaism teaches that god wants his people to be just and compassionate??? That Buddhism is about liberation from suffering??? That Hinduism teaches reincarnation? That Islam believes in a just and merciful god? That there are an endless number of diverse and nuanced beliefs that various indigenous peoples struggle to reclaim every day? And you all have the nerve to lump us all in together with the likes of catholicism and jehovah’s witnesses just because you’re too fucking smug and lazy to get off your ass leave your own bubble and read a god damn wikipedia article?

[gayingnotpraying]

From a sociological standpoint, theres no strict boundary that separates religions from cults. A lot of it is simply public perception of a new religious movement that often leads to people calling it a cult. if a cult worships something, is it not also a religion? if we went back to the time of establishment of a world religion, would it not seem like a cult to onlookers who dont believe it yet?

There is little difference except that cult has a negative connotation, that makes many of us associate it with previous religious and social movements that have led to deaths or harmed individuals. but to say that simply because something is recognized by the public as a religion, does that mean it does not have the capacity to hurt people in the exact same way that cults do? when buddhist monks fast for a week, is that not a form of hurting oneself for the sake of showing commitment to a religious belief? When Indian Muslims self-flagellate during the month of Muharram, is that not the same? Or in the Hindu practice of Kavadi? When Muslims prove their devotion by praying through the night during months of Ramadan, in spite of social obligations the next day, in part due to cultural norms and expectations, in other part to show love and beg for mercy and forgiveness from a god at the slim chance that praying on the correct, undisclosed night of Ramadan will save them from hellfire - what is it if not a similar level of devotion we've seen from cults who require constant meditation and prayer to put their followers in a state of sleep deprivation?

What distinguishes a cult from a religion? Perhaps intent? And yet I'm not sure you can fully, with no shadow of a doubt, identify the intent of any one person, be it a religious leader or a cult leader. Plenty of priests and ustadz have used their positions of power to pocket community money or to take sexual advantage of followers.

Wherein lies the difference?

Additionally, no one religion is the same across the world. Muslims in Singapore or Turkey may not all wear hijab, but that could get you killed in Saudi for not wearing the burqa. You could argue that this is only true due to terrorist forces, though they do use religion as a motivation. But even with that argument, what then of mercy killings in pakistan when a Muslim woman has disgraced her family? Of course, people practice things differently across the world due to cultural differences, or differently even within the same country due to different denominations. And you can even say that the difference is the source material - because people can practice religions harmfully but the source material may be peaceful. And to that, I'd raise it isn't entirely true, especially where Islam is concerned. That said, a religion cannot just be the source material. Religion includes the way it is practiced, the way the people use it to make decisions in interpersonal and larger, political situations. It does not exist in a vacuum. As much as I want to point at the Taliban and say "that's not Islam!", that's their version of Islam. They practice it like that. Lots of people have to in line with these values out of fear, and lots of people reinforce these beliefs too. I don't think separating the religious text from the way it is understood and practiced by people would be fair when judging religions, because the religion is its people and its practices.

Some sociologists will say that the only difference between a cult and a religion is a hundred years. Maybe that's true! We only recognize world religions that have been around for a really long time. This includes indigenous religions (though more condescending and colonial individuals may call these religions folklore. another word that simply means religion, but has a tacked on negative connotation).

So again, I call to ask, what IS the difference? because not all weird and radical, new beliefs are cults the same way not all world religions or established religions are as harmless as you would describe in the post. And all of them give their followers meaning in life.

I know it may seem condescending to say "hey, these religions are all cults!" because it would be! Cult is a word with negative connotations. That said, there is nothing but time and perception that keep religions from being seen as cults. And nothing but judgment that keep newly-formed religions from being recognized as such. So perhaps not all religions are cults! But a lot of them would be virtually indistinguishable from a cult in terms of practice. And most of them would probably have seemed like a cult when first founded.

Dumbasses who have never talked to a non-christian in their life will say that religions are cults because they preach salvation and give you rules to keep you in line like y’all do realize that hell isn’t a universal belief???? That Judaism teaches that god wants his people to be just and compassionate??? That Buddhism is about liberation from suffering??? That Hinduism teaches reincarnation? That Islam believes in a just and merciful god? That there are an endless number of diverse and nuanced beliefs that various indigenous peoples struggle to reclaim every day? And you all have the nerve to lump us all in together with the likes of catholicism and jehovah’s witnesses just because you’re too fucking smug and lazy to get off your ass leave your own bubble and read a god damn wikipedia article?

[gayingnotpraying]

1) it's absolutely true that there are many peaceful muslims, and beyond that, there are liberal, feminist, gay and trans muslims, many of whom exist within a muslim community that is supportive of who they are. it is without a doubt these people exist, and there are people whose experience within Islam is progressive and peaceful.

2) that said, Islam, like any large group of individuals, is not a monolith. islam exists across countries and regions, and these geographical and social differences in context are likely to inform an individual's experience of islam. a muslim in new york city is going to have a far different experience of islam than one in malaysia who is going to have a far different experience of islam than one in afghanistan. acting like there is one singular and PEACEFUL understanding of islam is part of the problem because

3) religions are always, always, ALWAYS going to differ based on interpretations, which are informed or directed by the social context. a muslim terrorist is still both muslim and a terrorist -- they would be an individual whose knowledge of islam is tailored specifically to fit their goals. we like to pretend that these people aren't muslims but the truth is moee likely: they are individuals who would have been steered towards acts of terror due to circumstances and justified it one way or another, but in this specific scenario, the justification they choose is religion. look at the issue of muslim terrorists recruiting those stuck in prison, those who are down and out, and they do so by offering these people acceptance and brotherhood and purpose in a life where they were constantly denied these things. they don't become terrorists because of islam. it happens because of their situation, but the justify it using islam.

4) this is because religion, regardless of era and location, has never been just about religion. religion is also NEVER apolitical. people use religion constantly to push a political agenda. less and less of it is truly grounded in differences in belief and most of it has to do with power, politics, land. religion is less the driving force of these conflicts, and moreso are the vehicle within which these conflicts are carried. theyre just one vessel. think about how colonizers and slave owners justified their brutal actions with words within the bible. the truth is that they wanted more power, more land, and that they believed in the inferiority of other races. and so they justified it with religion. christianity would not be the problem in this case, but they were undeniably christian. islam is not the problem in the case of islamic terrorism, but these terrorists are undeniably muslim.

5) this is ALL to say that islam can be peaceful, loving and accepting. and it can also be violent, brutal and punishing. there are locations and communities where islam is used to justify hurting and killing individuals, for being gay, for leaving their religion, for whatever else reason. there are also places wherein islam is used to preach love and acceptance and, above all, love for humanity.

6) as such, islamophobia, i.e. the prejudice against any muslim on the basis of their being muslim, is obviously bad and wrong. as we've just covered, muslims aren't a monolith and to judge them as if we knew them Just on the basis of being muslim and then let that justify our prejudice and hatred is just going to be blatant discrimination and highly inaccurate. that said,

7) you can be against islamic terrorism or implementation of syariah laws, and still view muslims with compassion. you can be against islamophobia and violence/hatred against muslims and still be aware of the violence some versions of islam enact onto people. you can understand that islam, as a religion, is as peaceful or as violent, as christianity, or as the reader wants to believe it to be. you can understand that people suffer from religious trauma due to islam, while acknowledging that the flack muslims face is rooted in mindless prejudice. these can ALL be true statements because

8) ISLAM IS NOT A MONOLITH. it comes back to that. for one of the largest world religions, the experiences will differ drastically between different sects of islam, and between regions, and countries, and even between different families in a community, and even between individuals in a single family. it all depends on context. a cis heterosexual man is going to have a wholly different experience of islam from his gay sister, for example. that experience will shape his understanding of islam until he repeats homophobic rhetoric as taught by his community. because of his sister's personal experiences, she won't do that, even if she continues to practice Islam. she might even take to more liberal understandings of the religion.

Experiences and understanding and practice of one singular religion will differ. And so several statements about said religion can seem conflicting but actually be possible.

If you’re gonna acknowledge muslims struggle as a minority (which is great) and go in depth into their oppression , please acknowledge people that they oppress within their own communities too. Especially in countries run by sharia law. Where even the gov/law discriminates them. Your activism isn’t progressive or worth it if it doesn’t include those people (ex-Muslims , non-sunni Muslims, theists of any other religion , immigrants , black people , migrant workers especially those who are in the gulf) etc etc. or if you think you have a right to silence them abt their personal experiences in those places. For you to tell them their feelings (any form of them) about islam/Muslims/Muslim countries in general is invalid in the name of activism or fighting islamophobia or whatever the shit is completely and utterly ignorant of you. Stop silencing minorities harmed by toxic interpretations of it & people that believe in them. Stop.

[gayingnotpraying]

many muslim woman are saying that islam is a feminist religion cuz they have apparently more rights that man and they can decide their own spouse, get divorced etc./ is that even remotely true? and what evidence can i show them that islam is misogynistic?

Lol let’s get rid of that “more rights than men” part real quick, the Quran literally says the opposite and the entirety of Islamic history 610 AD-present cements the point. Call me when they discover a magic alternate Quran that gives women twice the inheritance share of men, twice the say in court, the ability to beat their husbands, and the ability to possess four husbands and infinite male sex slaves. Like… the DELUSION of people who try this, girl I–

But marriage and divorce! Let’s launch into an unexpected lesson in fiqh. As always, I’d recommend reading an actual book about this topic if you’re really curious, but I can summarize it. If you are a young lady in the Abbasid caliphate in the 10th century or so–or one unfortunate enough to live in a modern place where secular laws and customs haven’t overridden Islamic ones–how do you get married under Islamic law, given that the religion prohibits physical contact with unrelated men and romantic escapades aren’t allowed?

Well, the first thing to do is get yourself a male guardian. Just kidding–one’s already been assigned to you, you don’t get to choose, LOL! It’s probably your dad or grandpa or whoever else is available. They will find you someone to marry. It will probably be someone from your extended family and it may be your first cousin. Sorry. If it makes you feel better, his parents are probably “encouraging” him to marry you just like yours are “encouraging” you to marry him. Mothers/grandmothers/etc certainly may be involved in this process, but theologically speaking their involvement is informal; the agreement must formally be through the girl’s male guardian:

No woman should arrange the marriage of another woman, and no woman should arrange her own marriage.

The only school to even partially disagree with this is the Hanafi school, in which some jurists believe that mature women can arrange marriages, even though it’s not ideal. But even they say that a marriage arranged without the consent of the woman’s male guardian can be overruled by that guardian if he determines it is unacceptable. Not all Hanafis agreed with letting women arrange marriages, and none of the other schools of jurisprudence agreed with it, since it flies in the face of Islamic tradition. And Mohammed’s own views of the matter seem pretty straightforward.

Any woman whose marriage is not arranged by her guardian, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid.

Now, according to essentially all schools of Islamic jurisprudence, fathers/grandfathers/whatever have the legal authority or ijbar to agree to marriages on behalf of their minor children. “Minor” here is defined as pre-pubescent. So if you’re a really young girl, congratulations, you are now on your way to getting married and have zero say in the matter. At least your husband is meant to wait until you get your period before he rapes you for the first time. Feminism!

If instead you are deemed to no longer be a minor–ie you’ve started going through puberty–your outlook is a bit better under some schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Virgins who are not minors, you see, must be asked for their consent to the marriage. They do not actually have to give it…. but they have to be asked, according to a hadith.

a virgin should not be married until her consent is sought, and her consent is her silence

Some schools of Islamic jurisprudence say this only applies if you’re acting as the male guardian of someone who is not your own daughter, and otherwise you don’t have to ask her. But let’s assume you’re lucky enough to live in an area dominated by one of the other schools.

You have two options here. You could say “absolutely NOT!”… but you probably know better than to do that. Presumably you are a typical medieval Arab girl and you do not want your family to yell at you and call you a disgrace for rejecting a marriage. Nor do you want them to pressure you into marrying another guy who’s even worse than your cousin, which they may do to get rid of you–a girl remaining an unwed virgin for too long brings shame to a family, after all. So when your father informs you that he has arranged a marriage with your cousin, you just sit there and stare at the floor. Congratulations! You have now “consented” to the marriage and are in the same position as your hypothetical pre-pubescent counterpart.

The one bright spot here is if you’re not a virgin. You are, I am sure, a morally upstanding young lady, so you are not a virgin because you were previously married and your husband died in a tragic and embarrassing boating incident. I am sorry for your loss. However, this means that you will have more of a say in your second marriage–at least theoretically–than you did in your first marriage. That is because Mohammed said:

A woman who has been previously married (Thayyib) has more right to her person than her guardian

In Islamic law, age is irrelevant to discussions about marriage. There is nothing in the Quran or the ahadith that imposes any sort of age restrictions on any part of the marriage process. The two factors that matter are 1) puberty status and 2) virginity status. Pre-pubescent girls, as I said, are controlled entirely by their male guardians and may be married off without their permission. Pubescent girls who are still virgins have a limited say, though their male guardians do not need their explicit permission to marry them off. Pubescent or post-pubescent girls and women who are not virgins have the most rights out of all; they must clearly agree to the marriage plans. In other words, just staying silent is not enough for your male guardian to continue the marriage process. You still may feel compelled to go through with it–but you have to say you want it.

For the sake of argument, let’s say you do. You’re pretty sure your cousin is the result of an affair anyway and not even your blood relative, and it’s not like you feel any familial attachment to the guy, since you have 80 cousins and never interact with the male ones. The marriage process may now proceed. Your two families will agree to a mahr, or dower, with its exact value and the number of installments in which it is paid being left up to the families. A marriage contract will be drawn up and endorsed by your male guardian and the groom’s party. Then a marriage ceremony (a ceremony meaning, basically, a party, it’s not a religious ceremony per se) will be held, the mahr or at least part of it will be paid to you, and you and your husband will go consummate your marriage. Congratulations! As of now, your husband is entitled to your body at his leisure, and you are prohibited from denying his “lawful” (NO BUTT STUFF) advances. You are forbidden from sexual contact with any other person, though your husband may have sex with up to three other wives and an unlimited number of sex slaves.

Now for the less-happy topic. It’s four years later, and your marriage isn’t going too great. How were you supposed to know he was into weird vore shit? Well, we have three scenarios here (all marriage in Islam is het so don’t @ me asking where the gayz are):

1) The man wants a divorce, but the woman does not.

2) Both spouses agree to divorce.

3) The woman wants a divorce, but the man does not.

If you’re a man, divorcing a wife for any reason is extremely easy, whether she wants a divorce or not. All he has to do, literally, is say that he’s divorcing her. This process is called “talaq” and mentioned in the Quran; judging by the ahadith, it was the most common form of divorce in Mohammed’s era.

The way it’s meant to work is this. A man states his intent to divorce his wife when she doesn’t have her period. He waits three months before the divorce can be finalized to ensure there’s no pregnancy, during which time he is obligated to financially provide for her. At the end of this period, the divorce is finalized. Assuming there is no pregnancy and no outstanding mahr to be paid, that’s all he has to do, and the marriage ends with no further obligations. (If there is an outstanding mahr, it must be paid.)

If he changes his mind and takes her back during the waiting period, this is allowable. And then he can say he’s divorcing her again, change his mind again, and take her back again. (The woman has no say in this btw, if a man wants to take his wife back like this then he can do so.) The third time he does this, the divorce is irrevocable and his obligations to his wife are over immediately. The two spouses can’t reconcile, unless the woman marries another man and divorces him. Then the first husband can inexplicably marry her again. Mohammed…. his mind…!

While that is the “proper” way of doing it, a discouraged but still technically valid way of conducting talaq is for a guy to say that he’s divorcing his wife three times at once, instantly making the divorce permanent. But divorcing a woman and leaving her alone with zero notice and no ability to reconcile with her husband (uh… without marrying another guy first) is obviously ruinous to her. So while this way of doing it does have precedent in early Islam and has a long history of being practiced, it’s still frowned-upon in most of the modern world. You hear about it more in Asia than elsewhere these days.

…Out of curiosity, I just looked up whether “triple talaq”, as the three-times-fast thing is called, is legal under India or Pakistan’s legal systems. Apparently they’re trying to get rid of it in India but Muslim women’s groups are fighting it… because it’s permissible in Islam and therefore must remain legal. Stay self-hating, dumbasses!

Anyway, that’s the Quranic way to obtain a divorce. But talaq can only be used by men. Allah neglected to mention what people should do if the woman is the one who wants a divorce (but he did make sure to mention how much he wanted Mohammed to marry his beautiful daughter-in-law. Priorities!). Fortunately, the ahadith contain another method of divorce that can occur if both the man and the woman agree to it.

This khul process is also fairly simple, and can be accomplished by the woman paying her husband back the mahr (dower) that he gave her when they got married. There is a waiting period, again to ensure there’s no pregnancy, and then the marriage just ends. This is based almost solely on a hadith in which a divorce is conducted by a woman returning the garden her husband had given her as mahr and the husband accepting it. If the man rejects the woman’s attempt to return her mahr, she can try increasing the “payment” until he accepts; alternatively, if the husband wants a fast divorce, he may accept something worth less than the value of the mahr. But some sort of transaction like this must be mutually agreed-upon for the divorce to be valid.

The benefit of this process vs the other one, for a man, is that the man is not obligated to pay any of the remaining mahr, and in fact gets some of it back. Also, most schools of Islamic jurisprudence state that the husband isn’t required to financially provide for the wife during the waiting period unless she is pregnant. That’s because khul is an irrevocable divorce, and a reputable hadith says:

there is no lodging and maintenance allowance for a woman who has been given irrevocable divorce.

…and also the Quran seems to limit financial maintenance in the irrevocable-divorce waiting period to pregnant women in surah 65. Khul became increasingly common in later eras of Islamic history, though many of the cases involving khul probably weren’t truly with the wife’s full consent. After all, why would you want to pay your soon-to-be-ex-wife and provide for her for a few months, when you could get paid by her and not have to provide for her at all?

The third and final option, involving a woman who wants a divorce but a man who does not want a divorce, is much trickier. There are two ways that a Muslim woman may end her marriage even if the husband doesn’t want to under Islamic law.

One must be done in advance of any trouble: if a guy vows to his wife that “I will divorce you if I [whatever]” or “you can leave if I [whatever]”, and it can be proven that this happened, then he is bound to uphold his oath if he does… whatever that thing is, since it is taken as a legally-binding declaration. Typically this happens at the beginning of the marriage. The stipulation must be bound to an oath from the man, it cannot be done retroactively, and women cannot force their husbands to do it. So this does still require the husband’s agreement, just advanced agreement.

If there is no previously agreed-upon “conditional divorce” or it can’t be proven, but the woman still wants a divorce and her husband says no, then an alternate method has to be used. This has no precedent in the Quran or ahadith, and had to be “inferred” by jurists due to a lack of guidance, which was one of several reforms of Islam in the Abbasid era.

Unilateral female divorce is not conducted independently by the couple, unlike the other methods. A woman in this situation cannot initiate a divorce on her own and instead must have her request for a divorce considered by an Islamic judge. Permission to divorce is granted based on several criteria. First, there must be an indisputably valid reason for the divorce. No-fault divorces are not allowed when initiated by women and in fact result in women going to hell:

Any woman who asks her husband for a divorce when it is not absolutely necessary, the fragrance of Paradise will be forbidden to her.

Second, when there is a valid reason for the divorce, the fault of this must be assignable to the man. In other words, if it’s found that the woman wants another dick and that’s why she wants a divorce, it will not be granted to her–the man has to be the one who did something worthy of divorce. Finally, there must be evidence of this fault and the irreparable negative impact of it. The woman saying “he’s mean to me” or whatever won’t suffice. Witnesses and written documents may be consulted. In some cases, an investigation may be carried out. For example, if a woman says that her husband cannot financially provide for her, some schools of jurisprudence recommend investigating to see if the man’s financial situation is temporary and if it will improve after a certain period. If that period elapses and it still hasn’t improved, they judge this valid grounds for divorce.

Different schools of Islamic jurisprudence have different lists of what constitutes a valid, provable fault. The most stringent of them accept only one, namely impotence. If a guy never consummates the marriage or is physically incapable of having sex, then the marriage can be dissolved so that the woman can have kids with another man. (Some schools of jurisprudence only give women a certain period of time, usually a year, to claim this right; otherwise they’re stuck in their sexless marriages.) Other schools of jurisprudence broaden the list and include things like abandonment and destitution. Few go any further than that, and none include simple marital disharmony or incompatibility.

If a woman believes she has a valid reason and evidence of it, it’s time to begin the proceedings. Often the first step is arbitration. In classical Islamic law, this is conducted with male members of both the husband and wife’s families. If you are a woman and find yourself undergoing arbitration in divorce proceedings, you’d better hope that your family’s arbitrators will stick up for you and won’t mind you moving back home for a little while. Otherwise… time to get some plastic surgery, move to Mexico, and start a new life as a waitress named Maria in a seaside resort town.

The judge will usually take the arbitrators’ recommendations into account before pronouncing his verdict, in addition to the evidence necessary to prove the husband’s fault. Judging by historical records, the outcome was basically a crapshoot, since it was all at individual judges’ discretion; in many places it was split 50-50 in terms of the divorce being granted or not. But when the judge rules in the woman’s favor, he pronounces the marriage over, based on the idea that a judge can declare talaq on the husband’s behalf. The divorce may be revocable (which is not ideal for the woman, if you think about it) or irrevocable, depending on the fault.

If the marriage produced young children past a certain age, they are assigned to the father’s custody. The exact age at which this happens varies between the schools of jurisprudence, but on average it’s 7 years old. Some schools have complicated rules for this based on the gender of the kid, in which sons go to their fathers earlier than daughters. Even if the mother is assigned custody, the father still retains his role as the kid’s male guardian; also, women can lose custody of even their very small children if they marry another man (due to the belief that they need to devote themselves to their “new” family) based on this hasan hadith:

A woman said: Messenger of Allah, my womb is a vessel to this son of mine, my breasts, a water-skin for him, and my lap a guard for him, yet his father has divorced me, and wants to take him away from me. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: You have more right to him as long as you do not marry.

I should add that all these rules vary in Islamic law depending on whether one or both of the spouses are slaves. Predictably, enslaved people, and especially enslaved women, are treated like complete garbage.

…meanwhile, pre-Islamic Bedouin women divorced their husbands by kicking them out of their tents.

Thank god Mohammed invented feminism.

[gayingnotpraying]

Good luck to all the ex Muslims. Whether your Ramadan starts today (06/05) or tomorrow on the 7th, good fucking luck. Us ex Muslims gotta fake our way through it. And as much as you might want to, try your best to deal with all the religious bollocks you’ll get over the next month. There are plenty of us here you can talk to if you ever need to. Don’t be afraid to message any ex Muslim if shit is going badly for you. We gotta stick tofuckinggether.

[gayingnotpraying]

Im gonna be fair, i cant speak on the jewish part of this. So thats not what I'm gonna comment on. I can, however talk about the muslim side of this argument and i want to say that you mean well, but you're very, very wrong. At the very least, you need to make a more qualified argument. Because unlike in jewish communities, in which you can actually still be jewish and not religious and in fact many jewish people are, you literally cannot reject islam if you were born into it. Many ex-muslims like myself, many of whom are poc like myself, many of whom are lgbt like myself, or maybe are women or women-aligned like myself, have read scriptures and heard religious preacher after preacher tell us about how the religion condemns lgbt people, which puts the value of women as inherently lesser to men. And we have the right to criticise the belief. The Qur'an. Literally criticise the prophets and the god of the religion himself if we so want. AND still be against islamophobia, because why wouldn't we be. Many, though not all of us, have muslim brothers and sisters, parents, uncles and aunts and cousins, friends, whom we love. And many of us were raised to consider other muslims as our brothers and sisters. But this doesnt mean we cant condemn or criticise the religion that has condemned and hurt us. The religion that causes our own loved ones to hate us for who we are. So many of us have been hurt by islam and it's this sort of leftist "islam can do no wrong" bullshit that has silenced and hurt so many ex-muslims still hiding their faithlessness because the moment you say something like "maybe islam has some beliefs that are outdated and harmful", people like you come and call us 'islamophobes'. And idk if youve ever seen evem a glimpse of the ex-muslim community but so many of the small hiding handful of us are so sick of you thinking that defending muslims means defending islam and shutting down or calling out anyone who dares criticise it.

And to claim that you can't separate the people from the faith is absolute bullshit. To also claim that being angry and mocking and disrespectful to a religion that has hurt me and many others, even killed those like me for being non-believers or gay or whatever is also bullshit. Like i said, you need to make a more qualified argument -- im leftist as fuck but that doesnt make my disdain and hatred the same as someone who is maybe white and ex-christian who only has a cursory knowledge of islam and thinks thats enough. And i've frankly had enough of people making these statements and ignoring the very real and very life-threatening plight that some of us go through because of your love for identity politics.

leftists really, desperately need to understand that you cannot claim to be against antisemitism and islamophobia and other marginalized religions while simultaneously mocking our beliefs, or acting like our beliefs are like small childrens delusions that must be indulged even if you, o wise one, know better than to believe in such silly things

if you claim to defend us in one breath and insult us in the next, one speaks much louder than the other

[gayingnotpraying]

@annevbonny dk if u blocked me or wtv but fair point

muslim lgbt people can’t even fucking whisper about the homophobia and violence they face in their own countries without some white shithead chiming in like “dOn’T bE mUSLim THEN sTop ISIS” fuck all the way off i hate all of you 

[gayingnotpraying]

Hi! Im not white, raised muslim and still constantly learning about Islam at my parents' requests through youtube videos, seminars and talks held by imam who are sometimes known worldwide. I dont claim to be a huge well of knowledge where Islam is considered. That said, those imam are, and let me tell you what I've learnt from them about the Qur'an and about our blessed prophet Muhammad pbuh!

Qur'an is the irrefutable word of God, everything in there is the truth

The prophet was such a moral standard that we ought to follow in his footsteps as best we can, and this is considered sunnah

From these 2 things alone, I'd like to state that, by believing in Islam, and by extension, the Qur'an and that the prophet really is the peak of human perfection and moral guidelines, you are also believing in:

Sex slavery of women whose husbands and fathers you've killed, and whose land youve pillaged. Their bodies are your spoils! How feminist

Homophobia! The story of lut is almost explicitly about how people who commit sodomy, among other sins, deserved to die horribly crushed by god. Ofc, it's arguable that it was the other sins that they were punished for. Except then, sodomy is still considered part of the degeneracy that deserves being killed for

Transphobia and cis/sexism: islam is SO big on gender roles. Stupid things, like men cant wear silk while women can. We love reinforcing gender roles!

General sexism: women cant wear perfume thats too strong because men might smell and be attracted. Women cant show skin because men might be attracted. Women's testimony is worth half that of a men's. I asked a religiously knowledgeable woman on why this was and she said that women were just less reliable because of their emotional state being thrown off in their period. This is also cissexist but do i even need to mention that?

Pedophilia and thus rape! Most accounts report that the prophet Muhammad really married aisyah when she was 7 and, then consummated that marriage at 9. Sometimes, people argue that she was at least 16 or 18. Either way, he was about 50 when this happens and theres no reality whereby this is peak morality!

Im lesbian! Im nb! And i cant find it in myself to have ANY respect for a religion whose god really not only allows but encourages so much of this bullshit! Until Muslims collectively come to the realisation that the Qur'an shouldnt be something that cannot be questioned, then it deserves no respect! You wanna talk about your experiences in homophobia and transphobia, fine! But idk what you expected staying in a community where thats religiously allowed.

muslim lgbt people can’t even fucking whisper about the homophobia and violence they face in their own countries without some white shithead chiming in like “dOn’T bE mUSLim THEN sTop ISIS” fuck all the way off i hate all of you 

[gayingnotpraying]

Exmuslim Woman who lives everyday in fear: Islam has ruined my life. It deprives me of all my rights. I can’t love who I want to love. I am my father’s property till I am my husband’s. I hate the hijab/niqab. Islam is misogynistic. The quran is full of contradictions. My parents would kill me if they found out. I can’t keep living like this.  Western Muslim Woman who grew up in a Liberal Family and has never read the quran: Islam doesn’t say that! That’s not the correct interpretation!! That’s not real Islam!! hashtagreligionofpeace!!! Random Tumblr Person: STOP BEING ISLAMOPHOBIC!!! ISLAM IS PEACEFUL!!!

[gayingnotpraying]

Everyone is doing these before and afters.

Left picture is the most recent picture of me whilst the right I was 15-16 years old (2006-2007).

Not only has my appearance changed, I have become a strong and confident woman and I am incredibly proud of who I an and what I have accomplished.

[gayingnotpraying]

Personally, if religion causes you great discomfort or even religious trauma, ideally you should be comfortable enough with your therapist to talk about it. My therapist (who is pretty candid with me) tells me that she's had a fair share of muslims like me who have lost faith or have struggled with it, amd if yours is experienced, that's probably the case. Either way, you should be good if you're seeing an experienced therapist, regardless of their specialty.

i go to therapy for reasons not related to exmuslim stuff but the more i think about it the more i realize that lots of the shit i need to work through is tied into that and i wanna bring it up but idk how. im working w a non muslim therapist but i feel like il make her uncomfortable & that she'll be too worried about coming off "islamophobic". did u ever go to therapy to deal w these things & if so how did u mention it? (for context i still wear hijab so i feel like she'll be be confused)

A therapist is supposed to just listen and offer advice.  They have to keep their opinions to themselves.I went to therapy and I would just say things like “my upbringing” instead of “islam” to avoid the awkwardness. Because sometimes they think they can’t help because its a religion. I am still working through my issues right now and it never ends. Sorry if that doesnt make sense. 

[gayingnotpraying]

I greatly appreciate all the devout Muslims in my life who taught me real Islam. If it weren’t for people like my one of my old Quran teachers shamelessly telling me that 1 male witness is equal to 2 female witnesses because women are “confused, emotional, and can’t trust their memories”, I wouldn’t be the mean atheist I am today.

[gayingnotpraying]

i can never stress how frustrating it is trying to explain to ‘modern’ or ‘liberal’ muslims how islam has oppressed you when they’re dead set on their ‘islam is peace/islam is liberal’ narrative and even refuse the to entertain the idea that their perfect religion is a fraction less than so. they always go back to blaming the victim, “no it’s how you chose to act, how you chose to live, your family was like that, not every muslim family” and yet how many people that grew up in muslim families, especially female, have the same stories to share, the same oppressive lifestyle they were subjected to? but stay willfully blind and deaf i guess. ignorance is bliss.

[gayingnotpraying]

when someone decides to start wearing hijab: Constant stream of praise

When someone decides to take off hijab: Horrible vitriol and racist insults as above. but hey! It’s always a choice!

[gayingnotpraying]

listen. if your religion requires you to reject a part of yourself, its unhealthy.

if your religion condemns you for something you cant control its abusive.

if the people in your religious community encourage unhealthy behaviors, its straight up terrible and you have the right to leave.

spirituality is supposed to enlighten you and fill you with reason and passion and self. if it doesn’t do that, you don’t have to stay. you deserve to be happy.

[gayingnotpraying]

One thing I've noticed while reading the books you've talked about is how books written a thousand yrs ago or more are really brutal and honest and you compare them to the modern stuff we're taught about Islamic history and it's sooo different 😳

Yes lmao, this is very noticeable whenever you read one of the early siras especially. Like

9th century Arab historian: In this 50-volume series, you will find a brief summary of the life of our Prophet. We begin in Mecca, where basically everyone thought he was a delusional asshole, including many of his own relatives. After antagonizing everyone around him and amassing men sworn to his side in battle, he was expelled from the city, and thereafter immediately began attacking merchant caravans. The Quraysh defended themselves, forming the basis of the conflict of the next four years of Islam.

The Prophet increased his political and military power by targeting Jews and Bedouin clans, capturing slaves and supplies. Medina was seriously threatened a grand total of one time, in a failed siege that killed around five Muslims and prompted the Prophet to order the extermination of the last Medinian Jewish tribe. He then signed a treaty with the Quraysh, which he immediately broke, and his followers began murdering Meccan merchants with his blessing to weaken them to the point of exhaustion. Eventually it worked. Following the conquest of Mecca, the Prophet ordered his men to conquer every place they could get their hands on.

See Appendix G for a list of women and and children married by the Prophet, with Appendix G-1 containing those owned by him as sex slaves and Appendix G-2 containing those women whose relatives were murdered before he captured and married them. Following that in Appendix S is an incomplete list of the unarmed people killed for insulting him. Appendix Q-5 in volume 25 covers those crimes he considered worthy of banishment (men dying their hands with henna, eg) and Appendix Q-6 covers those crimes worthy of death (married individuals committing adultery, eg).

Volume 30 begins my 550,000 word recap of the campaign of religious persecution, murder, forced conversions, and attacks on places of worship that wiped Arab polytheism off the face of the planet, uniting Arabia under the banner of Islam and leading to the brutal conquests of Byzantium and Persia, which are covered in volumes 39-50.

21st century Islamic hell discourse: Everyone know Islam is true and thought to themselve “this Noble Quran is too incredible to be the product of a human!” but they were  proud and evil to convert so they were mean to our beloved prophet (PBUH). tho persecuted, the prophet (pubh) always forgave all and never attack, only defend, and only marry old ugly women no1 else wants,, everyone wanted to convert to Islam becus they knew it was the truth and their idols were fake. After only a short time barbaric days of child sacrifice and warfare were over and everyone began drinking Respect WOmen Juice twice per day, the PROPHET (pbuh) actually invented femenism,, and was the wor;d’s first feminist, also loved LGBTQQIA++ ppl very much because ALLAH is “All_Mercifucl”,, it is very wrong to say “it spread by the sword because in fact people were happy to see the Muslims come to them and joined them actually there aws not much fighting or badness at all except against evil ppl,