june-sunsets

[june-sunsets]

So the tagline for Nolan's movie is 'Defy the Gods'.

Hey, Nolan? Tell me you didn't read the Odyssey without telling me you didn't read the Odyssey.

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'I’ll be the first person to call out when a person from an imperialist country is disrespectful against another culture’s traditions because this affects my everyday life.'

I see, thank you for sharing that. I repeat, however, I did not accuse you of xenophobia.

OP's post was harmless, including the tags. They were joking, they said so themselves. You're making a bigger deal out of this than it needs to be.

There was an interview where Miller specifically said "I wanted to push back against Homer". That's probably what I remembered, and same logic applies. How can she compare her books to ancient writings?

As for which characters she simplified, well, I've already mentioned Patroclus. The women in 'The song of Achilles' are depicted negatively because they get in the way of Patrochilles. In general Miller sees the Gods as modern sociopaths and describes them as such. Why did Helios need to be a bad father, for example? Simply for protagonist Circe's backstory? In Circe, it often feels like all the male characters have to be abusive purely for Miller's 'feminist' narrative.

You keep forgetting what I wrote:

This isn't about all retellings being inherently bad.

Let me put it this way; I enjoy fanfiction. Fanfiction is essentially a form of retelling. But here's the thing; even in fanfiction, where you put the pre-existing characters in a story that diverges from canon, or even in an AU, the characters are still 'in character'. If their personalities are different, then what's the point? You might as well be reading about completely different characters.

'The idea that reimaginings are “bad writing” is restrictive of the medium and dismissive of plenty of great works'

I was refering to the characters' personalities. Not the entire idea of a retelling. So again, I'm not anti-art, and again, I feel you're twisting my words.

You said in your previous response 'I don’t care for misinformed reviews'. Well, I don't care for people who repeatedly distort my opinions. And I especially do not need to justify myself to them, since they will twist anything I say.

So Madeline Miller is writing a Persephone retelling. So let's make our bets about the book.

The winners will win this picture of a brick.

So let's make a bet.

A.) She will potray Demeter as an abusive mother, whaile the kidnapping will be ereased, and Hades will be baby boyfied.

B.) Hades will be potrayd as eveil incarnate, and Demeter will be potrayd as a poor poor blorbo (similar to how she potrayd Circe)

C.) Both will be potrayd as the worst. Demeter, and Hades will be potrayd as abusive, and Persephone will be potrayd as a poor poor girl who always has to suffer.

My bet is that it will be C.).

[june-sunsets]

Your response reeks of 'I will twist every sentence into something else'. First of all;

'How nice of you to accuse me of xenophobia because I believe that a book that hasn’t even been published shouldn’t be ridiculized. Very rational.'

I did not accuse you of xenophobia. Where on earth did I accuse you of xenophobia? You read 'you're going into these retellings without fully grasping the purpose and cultural value of Greek mythology' and what you got from it was 'xenophobia'? Are you kidding me? What I wrote is literally what it says on the tin (which is not xenophobia). And OP did not ridiculize anything; they made a humorous speculation on a future book and you couldn't handle it. Very mature.

'If you believe that the concept of ancient greek mythology retellings as a whole is disrespectful, that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. I just find it completely unnecessary to insult this woman’s intelligence and speak of her as if she’s an idiot to be led by the nose.'

In the conclusion of my 'rambling' I state that this isn't about all retellings being inherently bad:

I believe a good retelling can be done. It's possible. Unfortunately, they are extremely hard to find (or, apparently, extremely hard to write). Most myth retelling writers do the same mistake Miller does; looking at ancient myths through a modern lense, and judging them based on that. Then they claim they can 'fix' them (which is another level of insulting) and they end up distorting those myths to the point where they are completely different stories, unrelated to the original source.

Also no one insulted Miller's intelligence? No one called her an idiot. In fact, she might know exactly what she's doing. I just don't agree with it, I think it's wrong and she's being disrespectful to the mythology and the culture it originated from.

(There is a general misconception of Greek culture in general when it comes to Western academic circles. It's frustrating.)

'And how is that her fault? Anybody who buys a retelling and becomes convinced that they are reading the true and original version of the story is an idiot. Madeline Miller’s books are advertised towards adults.'

That's true, anybody who buys a retelling thinks they are reading the true of the story is an idiot. But there's a problem in Miller's attitude towards mythology as well. How is it also not her fault, when she says things like 'the ending of the novel is a huge pushback against mythology' in her interviews? Really, Miller? Are you comparing yourself to Homer? Are you saying your retelling is on a par with this thousands-of-years-old epic? Be for real.

Ultimately, the fact that she's a Classicist means little to me when she characterizes mythological figures -mortals and gods- in a way that reduces them to caricatures; she simplifies them so they can fit the boxes of modern character tropes.

That's when retellings become direspectful. And that's an instance where changing an existing character's personality is bad writing. Especially when this character was originally pretty complex and means something to the people of this culture.

As a Greek person, I have the right to call her out on that.

I didn't accuse you of xenophobia, but I'm pretty sure you accused me of being anti-art. So no, I'm not anti-art. I'm just Greek and irritated with Miller's BS. People are allowed to express criticism on art. All art, including Miller's.

So Madeline Miller is writing a Persephone retelling. So let's make our bets about the book.

The winners will win this picture of a brick.

So let's make a bet.

A.) She will potray Demeter as an abusive mother, whaile the kidnapping will be ereased, and Hades will be baby boyfied.

B.) Hades will be potrayd as eveil incarnate, and Demeter will be potrayd as a poor poor blorbo (similar to how she potrayd Circe)

C.) Both will be potrayd as the worst. Demeter, and Hades will be potrayd as abusive, and Persephone will be potrayd as a poor poor girl who always has to suffer.

My bet is that it will be C.).

[june-sunsets]

^^^^^^^ All of this.

There's a difference between 'telling your own version' of a myth, and telling a completely different story. If you need to change a pre-existing character so much that they feel like a new character, then it's simply bad writing.

Miller is especially self-righteous about her retellings in interviews. Are her retellings 'other versions' of the myths? If by 'other versions' you mean distorting the mythology and missing its point, or utilizing foreign mythology as an aesthetic to draw people in, then yeah, I guess.

Readers who are ignorant of the myths or have no respect for the culture those myths belong to, will then take Miller's distorted stories as fact, and assume that hers is the correct way of telling them. And, evidently, Miller's fans will not tolerate anyone criticizing her.

Well I promise you that her books give the opposite impression.

In fact, her characterization of Patroclus alone is enough for me to doubt her both as an academic and as a researcher.

(Not to mention her tendency to invent unnecessary details, things that don't happen in the myths, like Circe getting assaulted, which was specifically added to 'justify' Circe's behaviour in the Odyssey. A+ writing, how very progressive)

A classicist like Miller should know that when you apply modern standards to an ancient myth, essentially removing it from the era in which it was written, and ignoring the reasons the myth was created, then you're missing half of the context.

Either she

has severely misunderstood the characters in the Homeric epics and Greek mythology in general (which doesn't say much about her as a classicist), or

she does understand the characters in the myths, but she cares more about what kind of story will 'sell'. She's thinking, "Let's see, if I frame Homer as problematic, and promote my books as the solution to the 'Homer problem', then of course people will prefer my stories."

If it's the latter, it's not a surprise, and she's not the first person to do it, and unfortunately she won't be the last.

@rightwheretheyleftme I think you're going into these retellings without fully grasping the purpose and cultural value of Greek mythology. I think you're glorifying these retellings regardless of how off the mark they are when it comes to characterization.

@lez-exclude-men If you're enjoying Miller's books that much, then I hate to break it to you, but you are the one who needs to get 'elbows deep' in research. But if you have no desire to do all that work, maybe you shut up and let people express their opinions? Miller's work is flawed, and we are allowed to point it out.

This isn't about Miller being a woman, and it isn't about all retellings being inherently bad. This is about Miller not respecting and not understanding the mythology she's so eager to 'fix'.

So Madeline Miller is writing a Persephone retelling. So let's make our bets about the book.

The winners will win this picture of a brick.

So let's make a bet.

A.) She will potray Demeter as an abusive mother, whaile the kidnapping will be ereased, and Hades will be baby boyfied.

B.) Hades will be potrayd as eveil incarnate, and Demeter will be potrayd as a poor poor blorbo (similar to how she potrayd Circe)

C.) Both will be potrayd as the worst. Demeter, and Hades will be potrayd as abusive, and Persephone will be potrayd as a poor poor girl who always has to suffer.

My bet is that it will be C.).

[june-sunsets]

Listen, they removed "I'm Wishing/One Song" and the "One Song" reprise.

It was bound to flop, they had it coming.

[june-sunsets]

In Greece, the 25th of March is a day of great religious and national importance. Along with the celebration of the Annunciation of the Virgin Mary, it is the Greek Independence Day, when is celebrated and commemorated the symbolic declaration in the monastery of Agia Lavra (Achaia,Peloponnesus) of the revolution against the Ottoman Turks, occupants of Greece. Thus began the Greek War of Independence (1821-1830),which would lead to the gradual liberation of Greece and the creation of the modern Greek state.

The countless heroic and tragic episodes of this long and bloody war,and   many of its extraordinary protagonists, have inspired through time many artists,both European and Greek, to create portraits, sprawling battle scenes and introspective historical works.

These are some of them.

Click on the works to see the title and artist.

This is a series,and this is part 2.

[june-sunsets]

In Greece, the 25th of March is a day of great religious and national importance. Along with the celebration of the Annunciation of the Virgin Mary, it is the Greek Independence Day, when is celebrated and commemorated the symbolic declaration in the monastery of Agia Lavra (Achaia,Peloponnesus) of the revolution against the Ottoman Turks, occupants of Greece. Thus began the Greek War of Independence (1821-1830),which would lead to the gradual liberation of Greece and the creation of the modern Greek state.

The countless heroic and tragic episodes of this long and bloody war,and  many of its extraordinary protagonists, have inspired through time many artists,both European and Greek, to create portraits, sprawling battle scenes and introspective historical works.

These are some of them.

Click on the works to see the title and artist.

This will be a series,and this is part 1.

[june-sunsets]

Greek folk Art (traditional greek knits) 🇬🇷

[june-sunsets]

The Greek word used for this myth, the verb 'ἁρπάζω' also means to abduct, to snatch away, and it doesn't have a sexual connotation. Hades literally just steals Persephone. Meanwhile when, for example, Pausanias talks about Halirrhothios deflowering Alkippe, Ares' daughter, he specifically uses the word 'αἰσχύναντα' which means he dishonored her, disgraced her. So what I mean is, there is a difference between cases of rape as in assault, and the case of the 'rape' of Persephone, as in her abduction.

ngl i do enjoy the hades x Persophone idea, but i wish it reflected mythology more like Dread queen persophone is a damn kidnapping freak too.

The thing with Hades and Persephone is that these two are far from the perfectest, most pure, most ideal couple to ever exist. The beginning alone is disturbing, with Hades kidnapping, raping and then either tricking or straight-up forcing Persephone into remaining into the Underworld by giving her those pomegranate seeds. He also cheated on her with Minthe, so fidelity is not a strong point either.

What frustrates me though is that a lot people completely erase these aspects and try to create a version of the myth completely different from the ancient ones where the only similarities end up being the figures' names. I understand erasing the rape part, because even though back then marital rape wasn't considered a crime (and there are still parts of the world where it still isn't, unfortunately), the idea of having a woman starting to be fond or to love her rapist just because he treats her nicely is on itself deranging. But erasing the kidnapping or the infidelity only removes the complexity and the grey nuances of their relationship. Why, instead of claiming that Persephone willingly went with Hades or that Hades is the only faithful god, people would focus on the fact that she had just as much power and authority over the Underworld as him? Why, instead of demonizing Demeter, people would try to understand that having your daughter kidnapped and forcibly married off to someone is a disturbing scenario, and that her actions were completely justified?

On the "dread queen Persephone" part, I have to recognize that I despise the way people either portray Persephone as this innocent, naïve and oblivious flower girl, or as a cruel, merciless and completely terrifying queen.

Yes, she groomed Adonis (Pseudo-Apollodorus), brutally tortured Minthe before turning her into a plant (Starbo), inflicted Thebes woth a deadly plague (Antonius Liberalis) etc. etc. But she also realeased Sisyphus from the Underworld (Theognis), gave Orpheus a chance to rescue his wife (Diodorus Siculus), sent Alcestis back (Pseudo-Apollodorus), welcomed Heracles like a brother, allowed him to take Cerberus and to rescue Theseus and Pirithous (Diodorus Siculus) etc. etc. She had her own moments of cruelty, but compared to Aphrodite who made children lust over their parents or Dionysus who cursed mother to kill and devour their babies she is not as blood-thirsty and merciless as people like to give her credits for. What is ironic though is that people are perfectly capable to acknowledge that just because Hades ruled over the dead and ancient greeks were afraid to pronounce his name that doesn’t mean that he was evil, but somehow Persephone must be completely dreadful in order to be intersting.

Reducing either one of them two or their relationship to an aesthetic isn't just reductive, but also shallow, repetitive, uninteresting, uncreative and overall boring.

[june-sunsets]

I would like to note though, that when we talk about the 'Rape of Persephone', 'rape' doesn't refer to literal SA. Nowhere is it mentioned that Hades rapes Persephone.

In this case the word 'rape' just means 'abduction', 'kidnapping'. It's from the latin raptus which means to carry off, to kidnap.

ngl i do enjoy the hades x Persophone idea, but i wish it reflected mythology more like Dread queen persophone is a damn kidnapping freak too.

The thing with Hades and Persephone is that these two are far from the perfectest, most pure, most ideal couple to ever exist. The beginning alone is disturbing, with Hades kidnapping, raping and then either tricking or straight-up forcing Persephone into remaining into the Underworld by giving her those pomegranate seeds. He also cheated on her with Minthe, so fidelity is not a strong point either.

What frustrates me though is that a lot people completely erase these aspects and try to create a version of the myth completely different from the ancient ones where the only similarities end up being the figures' names. I understand erasing the rape part, because even though back then marital rape wasn't considered a crime (and there are still parts of the world where it still isn't, unfortunately), the idea of having a woman starting to be fond or to love her rapist just because he treats her nicely is on itself deranging. But erasing the kidnapping or the infidelity only removes the complexity and the grey nuances of their relationship. Why, instead of claiming that Persephone willingly went with Hades or that Hades is the only faithful god, people would focus on the fact that she had just as much power and authority over the Underworld as him? Why, instead of demonizing Demeter, people would try to understand that having your daughter kidnapped and forcibly married off to someone is a disturbing scenario, and that her actions were completely justified?

On the "dread queen Persephone" part, I have to recognize that I despise the way people either portray Persephone as this innocent, naïve and oblivious flower girl, or as a cruel, merciless and completely terrifying queen.

Yes, she groomed Adonis (Pseudo-Apollodorus), brutally tortured Minthe before turning her into a plant (Starbo), inflicted Thebes woth a deadly plague (Antonius Liberalis) etc. etc. But she also realeased Sisyphus from the Underworld (Theognis), gave Orpheus a chance to rescue his wife (Diodorus Siculus), sent Alcestis back (Pseudo-Apollodorus), welcomed Heracles like a brother, allowed him to take Cerberus and to rescue Theseus and Pirithous (Diodorus Siculus) etc. etc. She had her own moments of cruelty, but compared to Aphrodite who made children lust over their parents or Dionysus who cursed mother to kill and devour their babies she is not as blood-thirsty and merciless as people like to give her credits for. What is ironic though is that people are perfectly capable to acknowledge that just because Hades ruled over the dead and ancient greeks were afraid to pronounce his name that doesn’t mean that he was evil, but somehow Persephone must be completely dreadful in order to be intersting.

Reducing either one of them two or their relationship to an aesthetic isn't just reductive, but also shallow, repetitive, uninteresting, uncreative and overall boring.

[june-sunsets]

(Η Αριάδνη γνωρίζει τον Διόνυσο στη Νάξο)

Διόνυσος: Διόνυσος. Για σένα, Νιόνιος

Αριάδνη: ?????

Every time i see dionysus misspelled as dionysis my spirit gets transported to a different reality where some random greek guy has become a widely known blorbo. Dionysis from my polykatoitikia.

[june-sunsets]

Oh no she actually mentioned using Ovid, Shakespeare's Ulysses, and other sources in an interview.

Oh neat..

However Ovid does not depict Circe being assaulted in his work thankfully. Her stories center around her unrequited love, jealousy, and the consequences of her powerful magic. The focus is on her role as a sorceress who transforms others, not as a victim.

That's a main difference that Miller has been making in her works is the useless plot device of using women's suffering and trauma for shock value.

Like miller you are ruining the source material and the image of those old poets.

[june-sunsets]

Get in loser, we're going to the park

[june-sunsets]

I'm thinking of doing a babes week this spring/summer

Everyone is welcome to participate!

The prompts we've got this far are

- Mirror

- Cemetery

- Favorite holiday

- Rock

- Beach

Suggestions are appreciated 🌞

[june-sunsets]

No for real, at this point I'm more willing to believe that she somehow got her bachelor's and master's in Classics without having read the Odyssey and the Iliad, than her having read the Odyssey and the Iliad once in her life

Or maybe she read it once at five years old and thought it was enough

Oh no she actually mentioned using Ovid, Shakespeare's Ulysses, and other sources in an interview.

Oh neat..

However Ovid does not depict Circe being assaulted in his work thankfully. Her stories center around her unrequited love, jealousy, and the consequences of her powerful magic. The focus is on her role as a sorceress who transforms others, not as a victim.

That's a main difference that Miller has been making in her works is the useless plot device of using women's suffering and trauma for shock value.

Like miller you are ruining the source material and the image of those old poets.

[june-sunsets]

So she used Ovid but not really, just like she used Homer but not really Book Review for Circe | Thought Candy

What Odyssey did this person read

Because I highly suspect that Miller did not read the Odyssey aasdfgfdsdfghgfd

Oh no she actually mentioned using Ovid, Shakespeare's Ulysses, and other sources in an interview.

Oh neat..

However Ovid does not depict Circe being assaulted in his work thankfully. Her stories center around her unrequited love, jealousy, and the consequences of her powerful magic. The focus is on her role as a sorceress who transforms others, not as a victim.

That's a main difference that Miller has been making in her works is the useless plot device of using women's suffering and trauma for shock value.

Like miller you are ruining the source material and the image of those old poets.

[june-sunsets]

Farewell