lore-from-hyrule

[lore-from-hyrule]

On The Canonicity Of The Zelda Books

So many people have doubted the canonicity of Hyrule Historia, Arts and Artifacts, the Encyclopedia, and Creating a Champion. I myself am mostly neutral on it partially because I have mostly avoided the Zelda community's thoughts and opinions to avoid outside influence as I am currently working on playing the games and studying things like manuals.

But for now I felt like sharing this video which goes over the development and input on the Zelda books. Debating the canonicity of the information inside. Some people disagree stating it doesn't cover everything others agree with most of it. But he does make mistakes on the strategy guide comment for an example.

Patrick Thrope in the video claims they get things like 400 and 500 words from the licensor and interview them. That they try to remain as unbias and accurate. as possible presenting what Nintendo wants through their intent. While outside of this video there is people who also point out there are still blunders in several sections and possible mistranslations as well. Some like the Fire and Spirit Medallions being switched are mistakes that are fixed in later editions though. So discuss in the comments below.

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Explaining why there are Mario Enemies in Mario Lore

Why Are There Mario Enemies In Hyrule?

So something many people have noticed there are many Mario Enemies that show up in Zelda games. The games include The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, The Legend Of Zelda: Link's Awakening, The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords + Adventures, and The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap. The enemies in question include Chain Chomps, Shy Guys, Boos, Piranha Plants, Bob-ombs, Pokeys, Cheep Cheeps, Bloobers, Spinys, Poodooboos, Lakitus, and Thwomps. Many people have questioned why they are here, and even some people have speculated this means Hyrule shares a planet with the Mushroom Kingdom. So I'm going to explain what is going on here.

So first off we know the Mushroom Kingdom and Hyrule cannot share a world due to the fact Mario's World has no room for Hyrule, and the fact their timelines work differently. So if they don't share a world, then what's up?

Well one possible interpretation is like Mamu and the Running Man, these enemies are actually parallel dimension versions of their Mario counterparts. This would explain their subtle differences in many of their appearances. Seems like a decent enough answer, however there is another possible answer.

So in Wario Blast Featuring Bomberman it is revealed Wario got to Planet Bomber using an extra-dimensional portal that links Bomberman's world with Mario's world. So what if there are extra-dimensional portals that Link the various Hyrules and even points in time in Hyrule, to Mario's World. Thus these enemies either ended up in the Hyrule in the distant past or got sucked into there by these portals. From here they either chose to stay here or find the portals back home. Yes Bloopers, Cheep Cheeps, and Chain Chomps are all sapient and can make decisions. These enemies don't even necessarily have to be from the main Mario's World, but another one disconnected from the main one. Although one could argue it's Miyamoto in reference to the games has stated it's always the same Mario, and the only know exception to this is the Mario + Rabbids continuity.

[lore-from-hyrule]

Why Smash Bros. is not canon to Zelda

Super Smash Bros is not canon and unreliable for Mario Lore P1

So it's fairly common for people to try to use the Super Smash Bros series for either theory crafting, or to understand the lore of games like Mario. While I have addressed it before this time I want to go more in depth.

So for starters as the characters in Smash Bros are intended to be toys in the real world. Masahiro Sakurai clarified this in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Direct 11.1.2018. "In the Super Smash Bros. series the characters are toys in the real world, but they are fighters in the world of the imagination. Returning to the real world is an ongoing theme, in the imagination you can battle impossible combinations of characters." This also further made evident by the introductions to SMB64 and SMBM. This also explains why characters like Ridley and Olimar are not their accurate sizes. But the second reason is the portrayal characters in Smash Bros. especially when reading the descriptions of the trophies. So I'm going to go through the Mario ones. Note I will eventually like examples from other franchises once I address them on my other lore blogs.

Now while not a Trophy Bowser's model in Smash differs from what it is like in game which I talked about in this post. SMBM's Dr. Mario's trophy says "with his dedicated nurse, Princess Peach, at his side, Dr. Mario spends day and night in his laboratory working on new miracle cures. Somehow, he's managed to keep up with all the new viruses that have arisen over the years." Note this one and the next one may seem nitpicky but we'll be addressing more outright contradictions. In the Mario Canon Mario does not spend day and night working on cures for various new viruses. As we know Mario is a plumber and that's he spends day and night working on. SMBM's Coin Trophy says "the Mushroom Kingdom is dotted with these mysterious coins. There seems to be an endless supply hidden in various blocks, and Mario gains an extra life when he manages to collect a hundred of them. No one can confirm whether or not these coins are actually used as the currency of the Mushroom Kingdom, but it's a safe assumption." There is some information while not established at the time it is canonized that specifically the 64sque coins is the Mushroom Kingdom's currency. But these coins aren't the ones found throughout the world. SMBM's Lakitu Trophy says "These airborne menaces used to ride their clouds exclusively as Bowser's henchmen. They typically hover just out of Mario's reach and hurl Spinies with irritating precision. More recently, however, they've been known to take on less evil tasks, such as doing camera work for sports events and even helping Mario on his quests." This is in accurate because not all Lakitus work for Bowser, and the Lakitu Bros and ones that run the sports events don't work for Bowser. I plan to make posts about friendly Lakitus and the Lakitu Bros eventually. Also, in SMBU there is some dialogue that involves Pit as they talk about the Koopalings. "The relationship between Bowser and the Koopalings is a real mystery." This is something that is not a mystery, and the Koopalings have been established to be Bowser's minions for a long time at this point. I have addressed this in a previous post. Continues in Part 2

[lore-from-hyrule]

Why Mario and Link do not share a timeline.

How Time Travel And The Mario Timeline Works In The Mario World

So in Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time Professor Elvin Gadd invents a Time Machine and uses the Cobalt Star to Power it. In this he effectively introduces time travel to the Mario World. But another interesting thing is we learn how time travel works in the Mario World from this, and effectively how the Mario Timeline works.

So there is a part where a past E. Gadd sees Baby Mario and Luigi trying to put out a Thwomp with water. This causes his present self to gain new memories, and gets the idea to create the Hydrogush 4000 and help out his past self. This is establishes time travel instead of creating a branching timeline merely alters the past and by extension the present. In addition this would mean the Mario timeline doesn't split but remains as one continuous timeline.

This is further backed up by the events of Super Mario Galaxy where the universe resets and things are just a bit different, via the Star Festival and events of SMG technically never happened. And outside of that the timeline remains the same and there is no splitting.

This also explains why Kamek in Partner's In Time says he remembers kidnapping the Baby Bros once, when he has at least 2 times. It's because this is the first time anyone has time traveled and altered the past. Meanwhile games like Yoshi's Island DS and Yoshi's New Island involve time traveling and active meddling in the past thus altering the past, making it where the events of Super Mario World 2 Yoshi's Island is not the only time Kamek has kidnapped the Baby Bros. This also explains why Mario is using the alias and disguise Mr. Pipe, he is trying to avoid meddling with the past too much while Bowser doesn't care at all.

This also lines up with what Miyamoto said it's always the same Mario across games. He said this in response to a question about if it was the same Mario in comparison to Link being a different Link in each game via timeline split and reincarnation. While the Zelda Timeline Splits, the Mario Timeline does not. This also means the Zelda games cannot take place on the Mario World let alone in the Mario Timeline.

[lore-from-hyrule]

On Mamu

King Wart and Mamu are not the same person

So many people believe King Wart from SMB2USA and BSSMUSA is the same person as Mamu from Link's Awakening. I don't think this is the case, here's why. Now before I continue I would like to note while they are both called Mamu in Japan. I will be referring to them as different names for simplicity's sake.

So first off appearance wise, on the surface they similar fairly similar, especially when look at the eyes, there is some differences. For starters while the 3D model of Mamu retains his design from the original pixels, King Wart doesn't. First off in Mario Advance he has a crown with a red gem, a necklace with a red jewel, and a brown cloak. However, I think the next detail alongside with render this moot. In the art for both Super Mario Bros 2 USA and BS Super Mario USA King Wart's artwork depiction remains the same. But there are interesting differences, between Wart and Mamu. For starters, King Wart wears a crown with a green gem inside and his eyes are not like a frog's typically are. Meanwhile Mamu's are like a typical frog's eyes and he wears a crown with a blue gem in it.

There is also Mamu's eyes might even have frills around them. This is because there is a possibility he is Don Gero as stated hypothesized by one SpekUL8. That Don Gero's Mask depicts Mamu.

There is also the difference in behavior and personality between King Wart and Mamu. Mamu is the leader of the Frog Choir and seems to be a pretty decent guy, even helping out Link. We also know if you revisit his Pond there is a a sign that says he and his choir are away on tour around the world. Meanwhile, King Wart resides in Subcon and tries to overthrow it in SMB2USA and BSSMUSA. King Wart does things like places curses on the people of Subcon and even Mario, instead of being more friendly and leading a frog choir.

So what do I think is up here? I think King Wart and Mamu are 2 different universe versions of each other. This would explain the subtle differences in their appearance, and major differences in their behavior and personality. This would also line up with the fact Mario and Link do not share a timeline with each other, due to the fact their timelines work differently.

[lore-from-hyrule]

On Il Piantissimo and the Running Man

Il Piantissimo Is Not The Running Man from Ocarina of Time

So when one removes the mask of the character Il Piantissimo from Super Mario Sunshine, it is revealed they bare striking resemblance to the Running Man from Ocarina of Time. This has lead to many people creating hypotheses that Il Piantissimo and the Running Man are actually the same person, and that Hyrule exists on Mario's World. I do not the think this is the case for a few reasons.

To start off I wanna talk about the Running Man's height. So in Hyrule Historia we get to see concept art of Ganondorf from Ocarina of Time. His height is revealed to be 230 cm Tall. From here I got the closest comparison of Adult Link and Ganondorf near each other. I using Ganon's knee height I estimated Link is about 5 feet and 1 inch tall. Something I noticed is some people on the Zelda Dungeon Forums also came to a similar conclusion about Link's height. From here I compared Link to the Running Man. The Running Man appears to be a bit taller than Link by a few inches. So probably something like 5'3-5'4 feet tall.

Now in a previous post I have made I had given what I believe the canon height comparison of the Mario Cast is, and eventually alongside it the reasoning behind it. So I believe Small Mario is 3 feet and 3 inches tall, and that in 3D platformers he is always Small Mario unless he eats say a Super Mushroom like in some of the Super Mario 64 DS levels. So with that being said, Il Piantissimo is about the same height as Small Mario, thus placing him somewhere around 3'3 feet tall. This would make Il Piantissimo much shorter than the Running Man. So that alongside some other visual differences between the 2 would mean they are not the same person.

Some more reasons why they are not the same person is that the Mario World doesn't really have space for Hyrule on it. And the Mario and Zelda Timelines work completely differently from each other.

So what's going on here? Well like Mamu, Il Piantissimo and the Running Man are 2 different universe versions of each other. This would explain the height difference and other visual differences between the 2.

[lore-from-hyrule]

I am reblogging this here due to it's relevancy to things like Zelda "theories."

My Thoughts on Game Theory

So, a little side tangent away from my other posts, I don't like Game Theory. This post I am making is going to serve as an explanation on why, and a place I can direct people towards to easily explain it. Side note anyone reading should not use the information here to harass either Game Theory or the other person mentioned in it.

That aside, awhile back a video was uploaded by a channel I follow named Inside A Mind titled How I almost worked for Game Theory, with a later addition of "edit now I do." The video goes over how he was approached to join Game Theory, and he talks about a Gravity Falls hypothesis video he came up with which now exists on Film Theory.

Why am I bringing this up? Well in the video Inside A Mind talks about some email exchanges he had with MatPat, these exchanges contain information that shows blatant dishonesty in his theory crafting. In this conversation MatPat talks about brushing aside contradictory information that basically debunks the theory that is being crafted. He specifically used the Mario Is Mental videos as his example stating that in the Mario Power Tennis shoe grinding scene was focused on on for a reason, and how he purposefully left out information about anything good Mario has ever done. "You control the story. Don't feel like you have to talk about everything. Focus on the strongest evidence and brush aside some of the weaker moments or parts THAT MAY CONTRADICT WHAT IT IS YOU'RE trying to prove. For good example, look at the MARIO IS MENTAL series of videos--- I really focus in on that shoe gridning moment and AVOID ALL MENTION OF THE GOOD THINGS MARIO HAS DONE THROUGHOUT THE SERIES, In that way, I'm able to direct the viewer focus to what is going to be most compelling for the overall story I'm trying to tell."

MatPat has made various theory videos over the years that have spread blatant misinformation about games such as Mario, and this shows that a lot of it is straight up intentional. This has majorly messed up people's perception of the lore of games like Mario, and it even comes off as irritating when he talks about how loves the lore of games when he won't even properly represent it. It's not just Mario, it's also Sonic, Pokemon, Megaman, Undertale, Minecraft, and yes Fnaf as well.

It's also annoying how people will believe his claims with no questions, and when challenged they say "it's just a theory." MatPat himself has tried to also use the "it's just a theory" defense and claim it's all just fun speculation. However, this defense is invalidated because 1 he has already stated that he ignores lore to create his theories, and 2nd how he gets so upset over criticism of his theories. Prime examples include criticism over his Sans is Ness theory, his recent Game Theory: Why You HATE My Theories (FNAF) video, and most notably his Mario is Mental theory. He basically tries to have his cake and eat it too.

It is also just straight up obvious on how he ignores actual game lore, countless people have pointed it out before. Heck several of my lore posts I've made either outright debunk MatPat's claims, if not throw major monkey wrenches into his theories.

Edit, I also have to note in his earliest videos MatPat actually did partake in the process of change his hypotheses(what his theories actually are), when presented with evidence that contradicted it. He didn't do it often but he still did it. I also think some of his theories might hold water, the Banana War to be precise.

Anyways I hope this serves as an explanation on why I don't like Game Theory videos.

[lore-from-hyrule]

Ocarina Of Time Ganondorf And Link's Heights

So in Hyrule Historia there is concept art of Ganondorf from Ocarina of Time. His height is revealed to be 230 cm Tall. So I went on to get the closest comparison of Adult Link and Ganondorf near each other. And by using Ganon's knee height I estimated Link is about 5 feet and 1 inch tall. This is something I noticed is some people on the Zelda Dungeon Forums also came to a similar conclusion about Link's height. So yeah, that's their canon heights in Ocarina of Time.

BTW, if the information in this post is similar to a post from a certain Mario Lore Blog, that's because that's my Mario Lore Blog. Which should be kind of obvious based on the blog names and formatting.