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60s Lesbyler wip

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I saw a girl on Twitter saying that the scene in season 4 where Mike and El fight in the bedroom actually indicates a maturation of their relationship, that despite everything they are having more mature dialogues. Honestly, what do you think about that?

It... really doesn't. I'm working on a analyzation post about this exact scene in more details (which I was trying to get posted before I answered this so I could like back to it... but alas.)

But let's specifically look at the maturity of this argument. I'm going to be using a method that I use with my toddlers (I'm a teacher) when I'm analyzing where they are in their brain when using conscious discipline.

Now obviously my background and the context of this poster is obviously geared towards children and parenting/disciplining, but it applies to everybody, of all ages, all the time.

So, brief overview:

Brain Stem - Survival State: You don't feel safe - whether that is physical danger or you're afraid your needs won't be met. In this state, you're basically shut down. You're not listening to what others have to say, you're not using problem solving skills, you are acting on instinct. Not always necessarily an actual safety concern, but any perceived threat.

Limbic System - Emotional State: You feel physically safe, but emotionally raw. You're trying to protect your emotions, and are therefore acting emotionally (not logically).

Frontal Lobe - Executive State: Your physical and emotional needs are being met, and you are able to use logic and problem solving skills to learn and understand.

So when using this with small children we understand that if a child is screaming, crying, throwing a tantrum, trying to teach them a lesson isn't going to work because they're not in the right place in their brain to learn.

When looking at this from a more adult, or even teen perspective, to have a mature conversation both participants should be in their Frontal Lobe (Executive State) to be able to accept criticisms and acknowledge each other's emotions. (I would even argue that a mature conversation can happen if one is in their executive state and one is in their emotional state, because the one in the executive state can recognize the one in the emotional state and help them reach the executive state.)

Quick Note: "Mature" is a nebulous term. If you're not able to do this, or don't do it perfectly, this doesn't mean you're immature. People are more than just a brain diagram and parts of the brain. I'm just using this as a metric to talk about this argument as far as "maturity" goes. It's also not all that cut and dry, as we'll see. I don't blame either character for being ruled by their emotions.

Let's get into it:

I would argue that Mike enters this conversation in the executive state. He's had the night to cool down and think things over. He's the one who broaches the conversation by offering El some breakfast. However, he's bordering on an emotional state, and we'll see that more in a little bit.

El, however, has had the whole night (and a lack of practice self-soothing/getting back to an executive state) and is in the survival state. She is hiding from everyone else in her room. She fears herself, and she fears the other's opinion of her. I would say she's on the edge of the emotional state, given how her safety concerns are tied to her emotions.

Mike: So are we just not gonna talk about it?

El: About what?

Mike: I dunno, just maybe about like yesterday or everything.

El: there's nothing to say.

So right out the gates Mike starts with a statement that is a little bit leading. He assumes that they're not gonna talk about it. He doesn't enter the conversation with an open mind. If anything, he's pushing El further into her survival state because he's attacking her. Not very mature of him.

El shuts down any conversation. Not very mature of her. This evidently triggers Mike further into an emotional state.

Mike: yeah I guess um... I guess I'm just a little, uh... guess I just don't really understand. Why didn't you tell me what's going on here? I mean, you know I'm not exactly Mr. Popularity back at home. I mean you've seen it. I've been bullied my entire life. I mean, I know what it's like.

El: no you don't

Mike is definitely fighting to stay in his executive state and is failing, slipping into his emotional state because he feels betrayed that El wouldn't tell him something like this. I would say that is fairly mature of him.

El is further shutting down Mike's feelings as well as his ability to help her. She's also denying that his bullying was "as bad" as hers, in a way. She's devaluing his experience. She is still in the survival state and is trying to make sure she isn't further harmed. Not very mature of her. She pushes Mike further into his emotional state.

Mike: okay...? What don't I understand?

El: I am different. I do not belong.

Mike: you mean in Lenora?

El: anywhere.

Again Mike attempts to remain in the executive state, even as I'm fairly certain he's firmly in the emotional state. I would judge this as an attempt to remain mature, but he's slipping further into immaturity as the conversation starts to hurt his feelings.

El pushes herself further into her survival state by hiking up her emotions again, allowing her emotions to get the better of her. I'm gonna say not mature - but I don't blame her. Honestly whenever I say "not mature" I'm not blaming them for their responses.

Mike: Come on, you... you can't actually believe that.

El: Everyone looks at me like... like I'm a monster.

Mike: They just don't know you

El: You think I'm a monster too. Mike: What? El: Yesterday. The way you looked at me. You were scared of me. Mike: No. No. No, that's not...that's not true. I was surprised. Maybe I was a little upset in the moment, but I mean...I'm sorry, I just... I didn't know what to do. I mean, it was just so crazy, it happened so fast. But it doesn't change anything. It doesn't matter.

Mike is now denying El's experience, pushing her further into her survival state, and is being triggered by the accusation, whether it's true or not, that he was scared of El, pushing him further into his emotional state. He's growing more defensive and isn't taking accountability for his actions or how they made El feel. Instead he's justifying his feelings because of how "crazy" and "surprising" El was. Not very mature of him.

Mike: I care for you... so much. El: Care... but you don't, you don't love me anymore? Mike: What... who... who said that I didn't? El: You never say it. Mike: I say it. El: You can't even write it Mike.

El here is making an emotionally charged jump. Obviously she's been thinking about this for a long time, and emotionally stewing with this idea that Mike doesn't love her because he never says it. I'm not saying that's not a valid worry here, but she's making an emotionally charged statement and stating it as a fact. Not very mature of her.

Mike feels under attack, and is triggered further into his emotional state, and if you were to take a byler read on this (which we do, of course) you could even argue that he's bordering on the survival state, because he could be feeling that he is in danger.

El: From Mike, From Mike, From, from, from - Mike: Okay, okay, Eleven you're being ridiculous. What like... what is this? You know what I think of you. You're the most incredible person in the world. And you can't let these mouth breathers ruin you. Ruin us. I mean, they're nobodies. They're nobodies. And you're a superhero. El: Not anymore.

Mike is lashing out trying to defend himself and is once again denying El's expirience and is even deflecting his part of the blame on to the kids bullying her. He's not acknowledging his part in the hurt he's caused here and is instead insisting that she is letting others ruin them.

I'll give Mike his flowers for making An Attempt to make El feel better, but given that he's calling her delusional for thinking he doesn't love her and shoving the blame on someone else, while still NOT SAYING the one thing she wants to hear - it's not an effective attempt at cheering her up.

So TL;DR - during this argument Mike and El both make "immature" choices that push each other into a more emotional space. Neither of them are able to accept criticisms or learn or grow from this conversation, so it's not productive. Original Twitter poster may have confused mature conversation topics with a mature conversation.

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mmmm cleradin my beloved

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happy pride

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stranger things finale is releasing on new year's eve and it's a tradition to share a kiss at midnight on new year's eve and you know who else is gonna kiss? byler. therefore byler kiss in episode 8 i've connected the dots

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oh my god stranger things and the beatles i think were meant to be best friends ur so cool

omg hello hi i have two things to say 1) i love you 2) which beatle do you think is will's favorite

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paul: if we put the songs in a certain order we can weave a narrative thread

john, literally twirling his hair: haha and it's like we're lovers and in love and the songs are all about us and our love

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peace and love

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bald mike before the st5 teaser i can't do this anymore

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John and Paul details in art by Klaus Voormann

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so uh

part 2

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“She shows us the drainpipe which, late at night, Paul would shin up to climb through the inside toilet window and let John in at the front door without waking his father. This must be the only National Trust property where the drainpipe is pointed out as being of historical interest.”

Paul Mccartney: The Life by Philip Norman

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reread this post and maybe this is an unpopular mclennon opinion? but i think they both didn't actually understand each other as well as they thought they did. i think both of them believed the other could read their mind and then filtered their subsequent actions as a conscious slight. like. john should know that paul is someone who keeps his feelings very closely guarded, who will always choose to keep the peace and to put on a good face when he's upset. but throughout the breakup, when paul seemingly stays as productive as ever, staying distantly polite to yoko while urging john to keep writing, keep beatling, everything's fine, time to put on a show, john takes it that paul doesn't care one way or another about their partnership dissolving, he's a perfectly capable one-man band hit machine anyway. this is seemingly confirmed by paul announcing the breakup to "sell a record," effectively ending all hope of quietly reconciling and supporting john's theory that paul was done with the beatles (john) anyway and had been on his way out once he learned he could write a #1 song without anyone's (john's) help. all he cares about is hits and money and his new perfect family and farm.

meanwhile. paul should know that john wasn't handling the pressures of the beatles well. he should know that he needed more support. but paul seems to be someone who gets stuck in his ways of thinking about people (see also: george), and doesn't seem to have ever shaken the image of john as the older, cooler teddy boy on the bus who he'd do anything to impress. he thinks the world of john and spends the 60s thinking they're in a friendly competition, not realizing john has started falling into the paranoia that he's losing. you can see it in get back. paul is waiting for john to write his next great song, to set a new bar for paul to push himself to reach. paul got john by impressing him with his music and when he's losing john he doubles down on it because he thinks that's the only valuable thing he has to offer. he might have offered the support john needed instead if he knew what that was, but he didn't. but mid-60s john, who still thinks paul understands him, thinks paul knows he needs him but chooses to spend his time flitting around swinging london instead, which deeply hurts him. john clings to yoko because she's a breath of fresh air from the constant race he's been running for a decade. a creative partner he doesn't have to chase down. someone who needs him as much as he needs her. a woman he can marry, can have a real commitment to. he can be everything to the person who is everything to him. but paul sees this as john finally outgrowing him and finding someone better.

paul also should know that john often speaks first and decides whether he believes what he said later. but it seems he only ever takes john at his word. when john leaves the beatles that's it, no negotiation, because if paul has lost john to someone more interesting, more artistic, then that's that. when john starts to talk publicly about paul's muzak and granny shit that must be true too, it's why john left after all. and granted john just wont stop shit talking him and it's not like he just fell on a keyboard and how do you sleep came out. but this is how you get a paul who starts to see himself as a villain and questions whether john did love him. he doesn't think too many people was that nasty compared to what john was saying about him in interviews because he doesn't realize that one of john's biggest fears is that he's incapable of being a great songwriter without paul. so to john, the lucky break line is paul admitting he agrees with that assessment and twisting the knife. but paul wouldn't see it that way because he's only ever had john on a pedestal.

so by the 70s, on their worst days, john thinks paul is cold marble statue who knows he's better than him and delights in it and paul thinks john is entirely out of love or use for him, if he ever had it in the first place. and of course, they could never talk about any of this openly because neither of them were willing to face the pain of confirming that their love really was one-sided.

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i know a romance main lead when i see one

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bashing my head into a wall

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okay not to be corny but i feel like byler is the shows portrayal of that large scale “movie love”. here’s what i mean,

lumax is a great portrayal of real love. it’s grounded. even when they encounter obstacles, max and lucas don’t give up on each other. they don’t rely on grand gestures to prove their love.

jancy/stancy is a typical (not a bad thing) television love triangle. nancy goes back and forth between steve and jonathan throughout the show. it generates discussion in the audience.

jopper is a classic portrayal of two characters who you basically know will end up together in the end. you see it all the time in movies. they dance around each other until they finally realize and accept their feelings for one another. even when joyce was either bob, the audience was hoping that she would end up with hopper.

dustin and suzy are a juvenile and lighthearted portrayal of young love. they aren’t a major focus.

mileven is a teenage relationship that just doesn’t work. it’s a train wreck. sometimes it’s supposed to be comical and sometimes it’s supposed to be frustrating but more than that, it’s unserious. and it directly contrasts,

byler. the relationship that has been building since season one that will tie the entire show together. it is the culmination of the shows core themes and message. it’s the logical conclusion of a story that has been anti-conformity since day one. mike and will have been put through through so many classic romance tropes. they’ve fought, they’ve risked their lives to save each other, and their relationship has been treated as “different” and “special” since the beginning of the show. every season has an intimate byler storyline that separates the two of them from other characters. byler is the stranger things love story and i do believe that it will play a key role in defeating vecna.

for all its similarities and parallels to the other romantic couples on the show, it is also inherently different. no other couple encapsulates the heart of the show quite like byler does and there’s a reason they left the “reveal” for the finale. byler has always been the show stopping love story of the show, not mileven.

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SO THIS MEANS MIL*VEN BONES IKTR