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Actually imagine Sceleritas horror when DU Drow and Astarion aren't even fucking when he creeps on them like the world's most caring pervert and they're instead, like, lying on the grass looking at the moon and talking about their feelings. That's worse than tender love making to him probably.

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I'm not normally one for selfcest but I firmly believe that the only way to fix the Spawn Astarion vs Ascended Astarion discourse is by shipping them together. Sorry, I don't make the rules, but y'all are fighting and the only solution is to make A!A and S!A kiss about it

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so i was looking up datamined content from early access and wanted to rant and talk about some of the changes Ketheric and Shar His story was changed twice!in both ea version he was a moon elf chosen of shar(he had nothing to do with Myrkul),in the first version Halsin accidentally killed Isobel and that pushed ketheric to release the shadow curse, nightsong was an avatar of shar

this is the original nightsong,a necromancer called "sevryn"(beta version of balthazar?!) had quest for the player to kill her with a dagger that absorbed her power,but if you saved her she could become a camp follower,here's some of her lines

"Shar is the Nightsinger, and I am her Nightsong." "I am her instrument, transforming the faithful into Shadows." "I drink their sorrow, their loss, their grief,then I vomit it back into the world." "I was captured, by Ketheric Thorm - Shar's chosen.He turned me into this creature." "I want to sing my own song, not Shar's, not Ketheric's!"

you can listen to her datamined voice lines here and here's a video about that version in the second version Ketheric turned away from Selûne when Isobel was still alive in that version it was Balthazar who killed isobel then framed Aylin as her murderer there was this isobel's line "I was dead, Aylin. For so long. It was Balthazar - he trapped my soul, he-" and Aylin's line "It is why I couldn't leave your body, even when they came. Balthazar and that Sharran witch told your father that I was to blame." and one Ketheric's line @ Aylin"You killed my daughter, then you stand before me and lie? I'll see you suffer tenfold what my Isobel did."(source) i think being recruitable kinda make sense for this version of Ketheric because he was being manipulated by Balthazar and Shar btw here's ketheric and isobel's datamined models(source)

so act 2 was all about the conflict between Selune and Shar and they just slapped myrkul in there last minute?! so Ketheric being a sharran and a chosen of absolute means shar was somehow supposed to involved with the absolute plot(that why shadowheart and her fellow sharran went and stole the artifact)

Daisy,The Urges,Orpheus and The Emperor Daisy was the early access version of dream visitor and every companion used to have their own unique daisy(everyone had the same dream except Astarion)"Down by The River"and"The Power"used to be about daisy there were "urges" in early access that wanted you to kill Daisy Orpheus was in the artefact but he wasn't chained up,he was supposed to be the one who helped you and shielded you from the absolute instead of the emperor.He probably had a way bigger role there is a misconception that original tav was meant to be a bhaalspawn which is straight up false,the dreams and the urges from early access only accrued if you used your illithid power (using them originally meant to have severe consequences) i know some people say daisy was supposed to be a manifestation of the tadpole that was trying to turn you and your party into mindflayers but i don't think it was ever confirmed what daisy or those urges were,i could be wrong but i remember it was datamined that both the Absolute and Orpheus used the Daisy persona...idk i know some people are gonna be like"dream guardian is better,Daisy was creepy/obviously evil"but Daisy only appeared if you used your illithid power,plus you could just reject them...or even kill them

as for the emperor,at first i thought he was just a replacement for Daisy and Orpheus but apparently no!i was watching Harbs Narbs talking about bg3's magic the gathering cards,when he saw the elder brain's card he said"could this be the emperor?"

Cazador and The Butcher …they basically cut everything...(source of datamined lines) so there was this character called "the Butcher"(who was one of the chosen/leader of absolute)who asked you to find his apprentice "Ohler" in Baldur's Gate's graveyard and bring him back a flask(?!),he was the leader of a skeleton faction(their faction was called TadpoledSkeleton)their concept art is still in bg3 artbook

i'm guessing this butcher guy was supposed to be the original Armored male elf chosen of myrkul?!ohler was caught by an ancient and powerful vampire called"the alluring"

you could side with the butcher and bring him back his flask,then he proposed to turn you into an undead,but if he allowed him to performe the ritual to turn you undead he also would try to make you his puppet. if you managed to break free of his control and you had to fight him. To kill him permanently you had to destroy his phylactery,otherwise he would resurrects every time. or you could side with Cazador,he wanted the butcher guy dead

btw i was looking at bg3 art book pdf i found these on cazador's page

is that what he originally was supposed to look like?!the scythe...ugh it looks so cool the other interesting thing is apparently other spawns were somehow okay/happy with their situation

the other thing i wanted to mention is i think Cazador was originally supposed to be a half elf,the language Cazador uses is Kozakuran,The Kozakurans were a human ethnicity The Creche vs The Cult of the Absolute (source) there was supposed to be a fight between the absolute cultist(led by Orin and the butcher)vs the creche(and some sort of team up between lathander priests and githyanki)

you could side with the absolute,they wanted to stop Kith'rak Voss from returning to Vlaakith,here's some of the butcher's lines

and orin's

and this orin badass moment,i'm still salty they cut this for the full release...

or you could side with Voss and helped him escape(i suggest you watch the source video,there's so much more there)

some other stuff there was some datamined stuff bout the city here and here i don't get it...why did they change so many good stuff,Ethel's nephew and hag coven,Raphael's original deals,Zevlor plot twist and...are all gone at first i thought they"cut"those content due to time restriction or resource constraints but that's clearly not the case,There is a clear change in direction,i think what they were originally going for was"choosing the lesser of two evils"then they decided to go with more generic route of good vs evil! bg3 was released in August 2023,larian was looking for beta testers for Acts 2 & 3 in july 2022 idk maybe if they didn't rewrite the companions to be less mean/evil and didn't add halsin and dark urge they could have finish the game?!

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Wyllyam Ravengard

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The fact that Karlach calls herself “momma K” and the fact that when she finds that little hopscotch drawing in the blighted village, she sings the little song and the fact that she has a favorite teddy bear and the fact that any time one of the companions is faced with an impossible choice or adversity, her first reaction is to protect and defend - it just makes me love her more. If you recruit her before Wyll, she immediately forgives him and asks you to let him stay despite him having hunted her for so long. She’s so kind, she’s so fun and she loves with everything she has despite having her heart literally and metaphorically ripped from her chest by someone she cared for. She tells you she loves you, even if you don’t romance her. I fucking love this character and I think about her all the time - about how it’s so easy to be bad and angry and hardened and, while she is very angry, she doesn’t let that stop her from being good or doing what’s right. They didn’t break her, Karlach is indestructible because of the very thing that was stolen from her - her gigantic fucking heart. She’s also incredibly wise and insightful - hearing her opinions on anything never disappoints. She is proof that “good” characters will always be compelling and I love her.

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AA girlies want to choke on Astarion's dick and get slapped around by him because that's true love.

Spawn girlies want to wrap him in 7 layers of bubble wrap so he doesn't hurt himself thinking too hard.

Cool girlies flush him down the toilet and watch him swirl around in the bowl because he's finally where he belongs.

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jaheira x ninefingers

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another vampire has been added to my repertoire

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imagine being a drow who has spent real effort unlearning their society’s myths about surface elves as the “embodiments of deception and malice” and then you have to spend the whole of bg3 with astarion and shadowheart

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Astarion and Agency- The Necessity of Discomfort to Self Discovery and the Infantilization of Victims

Minor Astarion discourse ahead that mentions the treatment of SA victims post-abuse:

I want to open this post up just with like. The statement that I don't think there is a correct way to enjoy media and that I LOVE to see individual head cannons and takes on characters in media. I think that is also, to a degree, an integral part of video games because of how unique the experience of playing a game will be to every person who plays it. But it has been making me feel so incredibly sad looking through fan content, art, or discourse for BG3 specifically because of how many people have taken the route of infantilizing Astarion.

I understand the instinct to shield or protect an individual that you love and care for. I also understand that because of the nature of the things that Astarion goes through, a lot of people also feel very deep emotional stakes in him. I'm one of the many fans of the character who is a victim of SA and CSA, I really do get it. That is also why for me personally it is so demoralizing to watch so many people treat him like he is a child who cannot make his own decisions or stand up for himself. Part of that frustration stems from it feeling like a media literacy issue, and the other part of that sense of defeat is just because it feels indicative of a broader attitude that people seem to hold towards victims of abuse, particularly those who are victims of SA.

To explain what I mean by people infantilizing him: I see so many people refuse to allow him the opportunity to be hurt, or to feel uncomfortable. They see this character who has been through an immensely horrible and traumatic experience, and their instinct is to try and shield him from anything else that has the potential to upset him. I get that the people who want that aren't doing it with malicious intent, but frankly it is not really...Helpful? To try and prevent victims from Experiencing Discomfort tm. I also think it kind of disregards the entire thesis of Astarion's character and arc.

When you go through something that robs you of your selfhood and agency, the world can become a crushingly terrifying place. In Astarion, that fear presents itself in a desperation for power, control, and at the core of both of these desires- Safety. One thing the game is clear about is that he has a right to kill his abuser. He has a right to escape his situation. A lot of Astarion's personal arc is centered around being able to finally do that. But the game doesn't just leave it off at getting him to safety. So much of it is also about him needing to take responsibility for himself and his actions, with needing to learn who he as a person is.

The inclusion of the Gur children and Sebastian as characters is a good example of ways in which the game gives Astarion the opportunity to take responsibility. I think that if the intention of the arc was meant to be that "Astarion should never ever have to deal with being afraid or uncomfortable again", then the Ascended arc wouldn't Come with such heavy moral ramifications, like sacrificing the other people just like him, killing the victims he lured in, literal child murder. The game infers that he doesn't deserve to die because of the things he Needed to do to survive, but it also makes it very clear that there is a difference between addressing an Active Threat and using your fear as an excuse to hurt others. Breaking that cycle of abuse when he finally gets the chance to is what separates Spawn Astarion from Cazador.

Taking responsibility for himself, and letting himself sit in the discomfort of vulnerability ultimately ends up being a thing that he is very proud of and cherishes. If you tell him you will make sure nothing like that ever again he himself says that he doesn't want you to be his protector. And so it blows my mind when people go into all of these discussions about Astarion with this...Weird moral high ground for never, ever making or letting him make choices that might hurt him?

I see this the most when it comes to discussions about the possible polyamorous relationship with Halsin and the interaction with the drow twins in the brothel. So many people are just...outright angry? At other people engaging with either of those options? And I feel like that anger is one) rooted in the projection of their Own feelings on non-monogamy and what a victim of SA can or cannot look like. and two) Relies on undermining the agency that Astarion BEGS you for at every turn.

When it comes to the drow twins, the game adapts Astarion's response to them based on where he is in his own personal development (a really cool thing imo). Obviously, if he still doesn't feel good or safe about engaging with sex he declines and says you can feel free, though he hopes you aren't just doing it because he hasn't had sex with you. I think this makes sense: He's just gotten out of a situation where his Safety and worth were directly tied to him having sex. I imagine he feels afraid that not wanting to have sex with you makes him replaceable or inadequate because at this point in the game, he feels like that's all he has to offer. The interaction is relatively the same if you ask him for a poly amorous relationship with Halsin: He just asks you to reassure him that you aren't only doing it because he hasn't had sex with you, and then tells you he isn't worried about it otherwise.

A lot of people have taken the expression of that insecurity in combination with him still allowing you to go forward and do these things as him just "sucking it up" because he's afraid of losing you. (I am aware Shadowheart says he wouldn't be able to handle it when you ask her if you can date both of them- But keep in mind, Astarion says she wouldn't be able to either, and THAT obviously isn't true of her. For the purposes of this discussion I'm only including interactions with Astarion as a judgement of his character.) I understand that concern, but I feel this take disregards so many other points of dialogue, and is also continually rooted in the baseline vilification of discomfort.

To further go into it, the way that he speaks about both of these interactions changes significantly if you speak to him about it once he is completely free from Cazador, and has had time to allow himself to start reconnecting with himself and his sexuality on his terms. He has absolutely No reservations about an open or poly relationship with Halsin, and says he trusts that things will be ok because he one) feels secure in Your relationship and two) Knows Halsin is experienced and trusts him to not be a messy bitch about it.

I think that shift, in combination with the in game explanation of why he isn't ok with being in that sort of relationship with the other Origin Characters (for Lae'zel and Wyll, he says they'd never agree to that. For Shadowheart, he says she's not experienced with open relationships and that he doesn't think it'd work out. For Karlach, that it would break her heart. And for Gale, he says you need standards.) is a pretty good indicator that he doesn't actually care about polyamory or monogamy. I think the vilification of that choice relies on you picking and choosing when you do or do not believe Astarion or just outright not liking non-monogamy in the first place. This interaction has more to do with the player's choice and comfort level, and so is not as important to the broader discussion I am trying to have in this post.

The interaction that is more pertinent to not Allowing him to make decisions is, I think, the drow twins. If you interact with the drow twins after the completion of the Cazador questline, he is outright giddy at the prospect of interacting with the Drow twins. Specifically stating that he is excited to see how he likes these sorts of things now that he's free.

NOW- I do NOT think that he enjoys the act. The game makes that abundantly clear, and I'm not arguing that he has a great time. He obviously does not, and dissociates during it. That being said, allowing this interaction to happen does not make a player evil or selfish. You are not playing the hero if you decide to moderate his choices just because you do not think he is ready for it. Once again, no one is evil for Not doing it either, and I am not saying anybody has to want to. I am just saying that treating this choice like it is an evil choice to make relies on completely disregarding what He wants to do.

Astarion says so many times in the game that he is anxious about finally having the freedom to find out what he wants to do, and I think that his excitement for the drow twin exchange is one of the opportunities the game gives him to make a choice. He makes that choice- And it sucks for him. He doesn't enjoy the act, and having done it he would be able to move forward knowing that. I think it's really cool and important that the game represents that facet of recovering as a victim. While you are trying to renavigate who you are, you are going to make a million new choices you never had before. And sometimes those choices are going to suck ass. It would be a different matter if he knew these things would hurt him and went ahead and did them anyway. But so many people expect him to move forward avoiding even the Potential of being hurt, and I think that is extremely reductive of his arc and who he is.

Beyond the matter of interpersonal relationships, the choice between Ascending or not Ascending Astarion is not a matter of choosing the lesser of two evils. It is a choice between his fear and his humanity. Between letting his trauma and his fear define him for the rest of his immortal life, and allowing him the vulnerability of deciding who he is when he isn't running from the world. When he's willing to listen to the parts of himself that want to do right, that wants meaningful connection, that wants to be proud of himself. That wants to meet himself. To confront who he is when someone else isn't deciding that for him.

Astarion as a character is extremely ambitious, inquisitive, and adventurous, three traits that only become more and more evident as he breaks free from letting his own fear dictate how he lives his life. I don't understand how so many people can see him and want to take the core of his character away from him, when he spends the entire game fighting desperately to take it back.

Victims are not casts of the abuse they have gone through. Their shapes may be changed by the hands of others, they may have to relearn how to be the person they want to be. But they are not broken or irreparable or fragile. They do not need to be freed from the grip of one person to be held tight in the grip of another. It is so fucking unfair and self-important to think that your hands will be the ones that fix them. That your hands know better than theirs. I think the kindest thing you can do for a person is to trust them with themselves, and to listen when they tell you who they are and what they want. Please listen to the voices that have only just learned to speak. It is the only way they can get better at doing it.

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Sorry

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How the battle with Cazador should have gone

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Team building

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Baldur's Gate fanartists will draw Astarion like a renaissance painting and Wyll like the cover of an adventure novel and Gale like a Leyendecker drawing and Karlach like the cover of a trashy romance novel (where she is the beefy hunk and her love interest is the swooning maiden) and Lae'zel like a knight in a manuscript and Shadowheart and Minthara like the cover of a lesbian pulp novel and Halsin coming out of a lake like the bear equivalent of the Birth of Venus and they're all so right