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neuroticbookworm · 2 days ago

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Theory of Love RomCom Roundup: Stand By Me (1986)

We've done it. Back in February, we started a quest to re-watch Theory of Love, this time pairing each episode with its namesake film. Three (Four? Five?) months have flashed by in a blink of an eye. For our last roundup, we watched the special episode of TOL and the American classic Stand By Me. Though this movie is one of the best known film adaptations of Stephen King's work I had never seen it. I've wanted to for while, after hearing so much gushing praise, so this was the film I had been looking forward to the most. I'm very thankful this project gave me an excuse to cross it off my list. For their last posts of the project, @lurkingshan penned a beautiful send-off for Khai and Third, while @bengiyo wrote about the violence running through the film.

[Note: When writing this I read this film study, which I found to be pretty fun. Especially if you're interested in reading about how language works in the film, I recommend a skim, at the very least.]

[ID: Scene from Stand By Me. Four young boys walk across a railroad track, which stretches far above a deep reservoir. Teddy confidently strides ahead. Chris looks at the other two boys before he steps forward. Vern and Gordie follow. End ID.]

"By the time we get there the kid won't even be dead anymore."

- Teddy Duchamp, Stand By Me

Stand By Me is a coming-of-age drama set in Castle Rock, Oregon in 1959 (as opposed to its original setting: Maine in 1960. Bizarre change!). It's almost impossible to avoid hearing about this film through the grapevine if you live in America. It's something that sits in our nostalgic consciousness just as much as other films of its ilk (Forrest Gump, My Girl (1991), The Goonies, Grease, The Outsiders, E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial, Back to the Future, etc.); it's a film that consciously sits in and interrogates nostalgia itself, casting back to and utilizing '50s anachronisms with all the contemporary flair '80s films met the era with. Stand By Me is a quintessential example of a movie both undeniably of the '80s and of Stephen King's brain; his works have come to retrospectively define the '80s just as much as John Hughes' or Steven Spielberg's.

Though the decision to set the film a year prior to its setting in the original book still strikes me as somewhat arbitrary, doing so sets the film even more surely in a period before a massive social and cultural shift in America. This is before Watergate, before Vietnam, before the assassination of JFK, and most assuredly before the counterculture movement of the '60s. But the era the film was made in is ever-present - when Teddy talks about his dad's time in the Korean War and his resultant violent PTSD, everyone watching is thinking of the Vietnam War, which had only formally ended a little over a decade prior. Every broken, abusive family in the film exposes the lies of Reagan-era valorization of "traditional family values" supposedly exemplified in the '50s. Stand By Me is steeped in the cynicism of those who felt robbed of a promise of a safe childhood or a prosperous (and trauma-free) adulthood. For better or worse, this speaks to a thread that runs through all of King's books - he looks for truth, always.

It's pretty interesting to compare this with My Girl (2003). It's a similar kind of coming-of-age movie but anachronistic '80s nostalgia for the American '50s feels markedly different than Thai nostalgia for the '80s (or, rather, the period that began in 2523). Not least of all because there's different histories, different cultural and continental contexts, and in some ways, different traumas. That's not to say there aren't similarities, especially considering that the period saw a relatively unstable democracy, a brief military rule, the world's fastest growing economy followed by a major crash and financial crisis. They also had to deal with the fallout of the Vietnam War, as Vietnamese refugees fled into the country followed by occupation forces. In a way, both films reflect perspectives of children existing during periods of turmoil and massive cultural shifts. But the way their respective filmmakers engage with their larger social contexts (or don't) could not be more different. My Girl's creators seem to be driven largely by a more optimistic take of nostalgia, while Stand By Me takes a more critical approach. In the midst of all this, the kids still behave so similarly. It's their environments that take them in different directions. And their storytellers have different goals.

The 1982 novella The Body (initially published in the collection Different Seasons; incorporates two prior short stories: "Stud City" (1969) and "The Revenge of Lard-Ass Hogan" (1975)) marked King's first major departure from the horror genre - this collection also features Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption, Apt Pupil, and The Breathing Method, all far more dramatic than his prior work. At the time, King was struggling with addiction, writing some of his most prolific works to date; It would be published just a month after the release of Stand By Me. Maximum Overdrive (which he had directed, written and appeared in) had come out about a month prior to Stand By Me's release, to critical and commercial failure.

Stand By Me marked the twelfth adaptation of his work. It was released to critical and commercial acclaim, making $52,287,414 worldwide on its $8 million budget. All King asked for when asked for the rights to produce this movie was $100,000 and 10% of the gross profit (later negotiated down). Despite his lack of involvement King has gushed about this movie endlessly, to this day calling it the best and most faithful adaptation of his work. It went on to be nominated for an Academy Award for Best Screenplay Based on Material from Another Medium and two Golden Globes, one for Best Motion Picture – Drama and the other for Best Director. It is widely considered one of the best films of the eighties and a coming-of-age classic. The anniversary of its release is always a big deal, especially to the city where it was filmed - Brownsville, Oregon - which has held an annual "Stand By Me Day" since 2007. July 23rd was designated as Stand By Me Day by their Chamber of Commerce, though events are now celebrated on the fourth Saturday of July. If you ever visit you can find a penny embedded in the street where Vern found one in the film, as well as an advertising billboard painted for the production.

Rob Reiner is probably the director who has managed to translate King's heart the most truthfully of anyone who has come in contact with his material. Reiner (who also directed Flipped, remember that?) was already well-known for his performance as "Meathead" in the influential sitcom All in the Family, for which he won two Emmys. He had just begun a directing career, with the prolific comedy This is Spinal Tap and comedy The Sure Thing (from which he recruited John Cusack). He had also co-founded an improv comedy troupe with Richard Dreyfuss in his early twenties, called The Session. When he was sent the script, Reiner decided that Gordie should be made the focus of the film, rather than splitting perspectives across the four boys as it is in the original novella. He related a lot to Gordie, as he had also struggled with the shadow cast by his very famous father, Carl Reiner. He also came up with the title after "The Body" was deemed too "confusing," taking it from one of my favorite songs of all time (later used in the credits). It's clear across their body of work that Reiner and King share a penchant and love for self-referential material, with King's story clearly being in part a reflection on his journey with writing and Reiner resonating with and elevating Gordie's character.

Reiner and King's works have complicated histories - both have been representational of liberal, even boundary-pushing, politics. King's works have historically highlighted underdog stories, with the poor, bullied, and disenfranchised often serving as his protagonists. Reiner has had a long history especially in television of including and writing for marginalized views and groups of people. And yet, their works have very often been co-opted by a broader conservative culture, and in my view has always been emblematic of white centrist liberal "activism" - they did much to popularize stories of people fighting back against monsters - whether real or of society - but their criticisms have usually only been surface-level.

You only have to look at how they handled the story of Davie "Lardass" Hogan - a fat kid who serves as the protagonist of a story Gordie relates to his friends around a campfire. It's classic gross-out humor at the expense of a fat kid, but the intent of the story on King's part is to serve as commentary on consumerist culture and on how Davie is othered by the community just by virtue of being fat. Davie is openly mocked, but exacts revenge by throwing up all over the audience. King uses this character archetype a lot in his stories to critique the same problems in dominant culture. Much has been said about how this is potentially a reflection of how he felt about himself and his body growing up. Instead of a critique of fatphobia, Davie's story (and its function in the movie) has become emblematic of it. I will say, though, that in the book, Vern (one of the main four) is not fat - he has bad teeth. The scriptwriters chose to change that, perhaps so they didn't have to create false teeth? Regardless, it doesn't sit right with me that King (and Reiner) return to the same settings, the same archetypes, the same ideas so often. It's too easy.

King in particular seems to love indulging every small desire and idea he has. A common criticism of his writing at the time was that his books were "bloated" and "maudlin" - it just so happens that most of his popular works are of this period. King loves to push the envelope of acceptability with his language, character types, and imagery (something which I'm a fan of in general, but not always when it comes to King). Throughout his work, he has been cultivating a specific cynical idea of people, mashed together with his strange brand of goofy optimism. King is wont to working on his own shit via his characters, repeatedly and exhaustively, as we can see in his long list of fat characters. All this is not necessarily a wholesale criticism, either. All writers do this to a certain extent. King is not unique in this regard; I find his drive to explore the inexplicable an admirable aspect of his work. Every criticism I've had of King could be a reason someone else loves his work. His propensity to air out his neuroses is attractive to many; his work just seems to speak particularly to people from his time, of his experiences, with his outlook. His work tends to especially speak to a particular white masculine experience. Which is only natural (and not always true - see Carrie). His proclivity for awkward, often horrifying dialogue and offensive, obvious character archetypes hold true in Stand By Me, as it does in much of his other work. He shines an accurate light on dominant American culture and on how language is used and passed down, that's true. And though I respect many aspects of his writing, it just has not always been presented in a way I enjoy.

As shown with Flipped, Reiner shares King's fascination with a particular vision of white Americana. They may have played a role in advancing representations of certain marginalized groups, but they rarely (if ever) satisfactorily interrogate their white perspectives. Their shared perspectives have proved to be very lucrative and creatively stimulating; Reiner went on to name his production company Castle Rock Entertainment after the town in the film. The company went on to produce several King adaptations including Reiner's Misery (1990) and Frank Darabont's The Shawshank Redemption (1994). I want to be clear that for all my criticisms of King and Reiner, I do not think either are "bad artists" or producers of poor work. They both have elements of their broader artistic material that I've admired. For all that they both seem to approach their work with genuine heart, their perspectives are not ones I'm very interested in anymore.

Stand By Me features child actors who went on to attain notoriety for one reason or another. Wil Wheaton (Gordie; Dreyfuss plays the older version) had been in small roles prior, including in The Buddy System (1984) with Dreyfuss, but this movie was his breakout role. River Phoenix (Chris) already had a long career in show business behind him, working as a performer in commercials, television, TV movies, and one big blockbuster. Stand By Me made him a household name. Corey Feldman (Teddy) was the most experienced actor of the bunch, having already appeared in over 100 television commercials and in 50 television series as well as a few films. By the time Stand By Me was released he was already a teen idol, one of the most popular "pin-ups" in the world. The film was one of several high-grossing movies he had featured in consecutively, including Gremlins (1984), Friday the 13th: A New Beginning (1985), and The Goonies (1985). Jerry O'Connell (Vern) had also begun his career at a young age, but his portfolio was not as expansive as the others' quite yet. His biggest claim to fame at the time was his work in commercials for Duncan Hines cookies. Vern was his first feature film role. We also got Kiefer Sutherland as gang leader Ace and John Cusack as Gordie's older brother, Denny.

In an interview with NPR, Wheaton had this to say:

"Rob Reiner found four young boys who were the characters we played. I was awkward and nerdy and shy and uncomfortable in my skin and sensitive, and River was cool and smart and passionate and even at that age kind of like a father figure to some of us, Jerry was one of the funniest people I had ever seen in my life, either before or since, and Corey was unbelievably angry and in an incredible amount of pain and had a terrible relationship with his parents."

Wheaton went on to star as the polarizing character Wesley Crusher in Star Trek: The Next Generation and has since then kept up a steady career in various aspects of nerd culture. Phoenix had a prolific career in film, becoming one of the most sought-after young actors in the industry. He said of Stand By Me: "The truth is, I identified so much with the role of Chris Chambers that if I hadn't had my family to go back to after the shoot, I'd have probably had to see a psychiatrist." One of his films was the queer cinema classic My Private Idaho (1991). He suddenly died of an overdose in 1993 at the age of 23. Feldman continued his young career, appearing alongside Corey Haim in many films including The Lost Boys (1987). He struggled with addiction and later related how he had been a victim of child sexual abuse at the hands of people in the industry. He still finds work here and there, primarily focusing on music. Jerry O'Connell has had a steady career in the industry, mostly in television with a sizeable slate of film roles. He's appeared on stage and in other commercial projects. He now works primarily as a host for reality shows, talk shows, and game shows.

Of the four actors, though they all give good performances, Phoenix is by far the best. He was a phenomenal performer. I'm still thinking about this monologue he gives to Wheaton. I would have related far too much with Chris either way, but Phoenix took Chris and fleshed him out into a young boy distrusted and betrayed by the adults around him. Chris' death in the end is eerie now in the context of Phoenix's own untimely death. I don't think the magnitude of his loss can ever be fully expressed.

Though I don't believe there's any actual queer subtext Stand By Me is rich for queer reads. For one, it makes perfect sense to me that queer folks would read into Chris and Gordie's relationship in an era where explicit queer representation was extremely thin and usually pessimistic. Chris especially could easily be read as one of the many noble tragic archetypes of gay characters in the '80s. And especially in the coming years when Phoenix became a queer icon of his own, queer reads would only gain traction. Nostalgia has an interesting relationship with queerness. We imagine pasts, presents, and futures, relate to and draw out elements related to suppression. The dysfunctional family parts of this story certainly have inspired queer audiences to feel a kinship with these kids, especially Chris and Gordie. I find it powerful that queer audiences can maintain such legible reads of a film that is seemingly so entrenched in - and seeks to challenge - violent masculine norms.

Though I didn't love the general tone and feel of the thing, what really stuck with me were the film's themes - I think Reiner manages to successfully deliver on this front. I generally enjoyed how the film grapples with mortality and the effects of childhood trauma. Gordie, Chris, Teddy and Vern quite literally set off on a coming of age journey triggered by the death of a boy their age. It's notable that for the duration of the film they're not walking along a road but rather along train tracks. We watch them as they're funneled from boyhood to a more mature understanding of the world, and they have no option but to face it and continue forward. Their futures are open but inevitable. On their journey the boys open up to each other emotionally, allowing each other to be as dirty and mean and vulnerable as they can't be in their toxic households. But once they find the dead boy their boyhood also dies. The tentative bond they formed with each other virtually dissipates when they return to town and their suppressive families. In the end, we see Gordie come to a bittersweet realization - though he has enjoyed a wonderful adult life, a part of him was left behind on that journey with Chris and his other friends. And now that Chris has died, that part of himself is unrecoverable. In the duration of the film he has grappled and come to terms with three deaths. He can only try, in remembrance and in his writing, to hold on to the parts of himself he has lost. Time folds in on itself, endlessly.

Since I'm more familiar with Stephen King's horror and mystery genre stuff I wanted more of a murder mystery than we got, but I actually like that nothing really happens when the kids find the body. It's just as anti-climatic and sad as it should be, though it marks a pivotal moment in their emotional development (especially Gordie's). I really like a lot about this movie but for all it's talked about one of the best of all time, it has too much of what I dislike about King and Reiner's work to have me jumping on that bandwagon. Though it did not do what I wanted, it did enough to please me. Some beautiful shots, solid performances, and a good score are sometimes all it takes for me to enjoy myself. It makes perfect sense to me why audiences at the time, especially white American men, received this so well. It's made for them and speaks to masculine American ideals perfectly even as it aims to challenge their moral integrity. This was Reagan's America, after all!

[ID: Scene from Theory of Love's special episode. Khai and Third are drunk. Khai sits on the floor, propped up against a table. Third pulls off his shoe and slumps against Khai's chest. End ID.]

Theory of Love's special episode was great! Exactly what I wanted - plenty of cute moments AND a needed expansion on their relationship's (and Third's) development. Meat with my fluff! It was also so interesting to see the increase in budget from just over a year between the last episode ending and this one premiering. Even though I wasn't in the BL fandom yet I remember this popping up on my dashboard. It's so nice to finally have context! Even if I had to miss out on listening to its great theme song :(

In the special, Third and Khai get to show off the WORK they put into their relationship in the five-year interim shown in the last episode. It was much-needed on Third's side, especially. I loved seeing their relationship finally play out without the constant drama (though there was still plenty of it for Khai). On that note, it was slightly frustrating to watch Khai feel so paranoid about Third not trusting him. It felt realistic to where they left off, which is great from a writing perspective - I'm glad they didn't handwave their issues away to give them a perfectly fluffy ending. But god damn, Khai should not have to watch his back so much when he's around girls. He never cheated! And he's not evil for sleeping around! With that being said, I love that the episode reasserted their commitment to each other. These two have become so much better at communicating their issues!! Makes me so happy!!

The episode and movie have, like, extremely few things in common. They both have friend groups of four guys with relationships predicated on tenuous connections. That's really kinda it. I was hoping Two and Bone would redeem themselves a bit and leave me feeling better about their friendship group. They didn't really do anything wrong in this episode, besides Bone drunkenly bringing girls over with no thought to Khai's needs. But that's really not that bad. I have concluded that they are perfectly fine. The epitome of collegiate friendships. I can only hope they all make more friends and flesh out their group dynamic more. Especially since they're working together in the future. As an aside, the ending to Un and Two is so funny. They're just, like, not there. Relegated to awkward phone calls, even. What the fuck was the point hahahaha

Another connection to the movie you could make is that this episode could be considered as an interesting look at nostalgia, particularly when considering the trajectory of Khai and Third's relationship. Khai reflects on the longevity of their relationship and how much they've been through a lot in this episode. It's what makes him commit to communicating to Third instead of hiding from him. He chooses their present relationship instead of hanging on to a nostalgic (and guilt-ridden) view of what their dynamic used to be. And for his part, we get to see Third finally fully commit to doing that, too. Khai is not his Jaeb. Their memories are important to their bond but no longer hold outsized power. This is a truly iconic friends-to-lovers story.

Again, there are very few relationships I can find between the movie and episode. Just as the title of the movie was hastily decided upon as the "least worst option" after it was determnied the original title alluded far too much to erotica or bodybuilding to stay, so too did the title of this show probably come from a "vibes" standpoint more than anything else. It's an interesting pairing, at the very least. Certainly put themes around the passage of time and growing up at the forefront of my mind going into the episode.

I am so sad this project is over. For all its flaws, I really enjoyed re-watching (and finishing) Theory of Love. It's not one of my favorite shows but there' so much to like about it regardless. It surprised me how complex and well-written the main relationship is. Whether that's because they came across so strongly in the original story or because the screenwriters found something they were passionate about working with is neither here nor there. It is still clear to me that a lot of intention and thought went into their development. The fact that they had more solid original material to work with in comparison to the side stuff, which was seemingly cobbled together from extras the author wrote because fans wanted more from the side characters, definitely could have played a large role in why everything else around Third and Khai landed as severely lacking.

My esteem for the show would be MUCH higher if the side characters' romances were cut out entirely to instead focus on Bone and Two as a support system. Their role as friends in their own right is severely diminished because of all that nonsense. Instead of, perhaps, further investigating their theme of friendship, I was instead subjected to some of the most mind-numbing side romances I've watched in a while I was actively bored and frustrated with just how drastically they dragged the pacing and story down.

Another major issue I have with the show is how they slut-shamed Khai. Making that the linchpin of so much of Khai's guilt was a mistake. They could totally have explored Third's discomfort with Khai sleeping around without demonizing him (and the girls, though to the show's credit they usually didn't treat them any differently to Khai). There was plenty more they could have explored in Khai's very real mistreatment of Third. I don't think having it as an element of the plot was wrong, I'm just not totally convinced the screenwriters didn't also believe that Khai sleeping around made him undesirable.

I see a similar flaw in the show's unwillingness to engage with queer reality. I'm not sure how I feel about the manner in which it sits in the bubble. Some moments felt like tacit acknowledgment of Third and Khai's queerness, but whenever there was a chance to take that leap they would instead skirt the issue. It would be a much more interesting (and probably darker) show if it were fully allowed to address IRL queer reality. Not every show needs to do this (especially in the BL genre) but the themes and characters in this story would have benefited from more bravery in this regard (and less sex-shaming, misogyny and colorism).

Another aspect of this show I really enjoyed was watching Off in a period of his career where he was still very much working on his acting. He's consistently improved in between projects, it's genuinely impressive to see that trajectory. It's clear in TOL that he's still working out some of his more glaring flaws but I appreciate how sincerely he approached the role. And per usual, Gun blew everyone else out of the park. He was Third. Which is part of the reason he may have irritated me so much this time around. For all that I sympathized with him, which is a lot, his taste in movies illuminated his personality to me a little too clearly. It's okay, not everyone can have impeccable taste.

I have undergone such an evolution watching this. When I first picked this up a couple years ago, I over-identified with Third and could not stomach watching his toxic, unhealthy relationship with Khai. All I could see was Khai not being the best friend he could be and Third self-flagellating and suffering for it. Not a fun watching experience! I gave it the two-episode try before dropping it. A little while later, I read @waitmyturtles' compelling review as part of her OGMMTVC project, which inspired me to pick it back up for another episode. I appreciated it more but still disliked it enough to drop it again. It took an entire group of people and the promise of watching a bunch of movies to get me to try again.

After revisiting, my perspective has changed quite a bit. My misconceptions of who Third and Khai are as characters were completely blown out of the water. Recognizing that Third is also a bad friend to Khai re-contextualized their entire relationship in my head. TOL was no longer a show about someone being absolutely crushed by their unrequited love on their horrible best friend. It became a story of mutual growth, one in which Third actually largely escapes owning his culpability. It was no longer agony to watch this, in every way except for Khai and Bone's psyop on Third's sexual orientation. It's far more compelling of a narrative than I ever would have expected.

All in all, this is a solid show. What it does well, it does REALLY well. What it does poorly, it does REALLY poorly. Watching in conjunction with the movies gave me far more insight into Third's theoretical framework, including all his misconceptions of what a healthy love would look like. The poor kid was poisoned by some truly vile heterosexist romcom narratives. I fiercely relate to that. But in all that garbage, there were some gems. I can only hope they stick with him. He can leave Flipped behind in his misinformed past. After the hell they put each other through Third and Khai are finally willing and able to take the first of many steps towards developing a better, more robust theory of love, one that works for the both of them. Third time's the charm! 8/10

Thank you to the watch team: Shan, @happypotato48, Ben, @twig-tea, and @neuroticbookworm. Watching this show with you over the past few months was SO FUN. Thank you to everyone else who has followed along, provided assistance in the form of links or GIFs, and/or chatted about the show and movies in the comments and tags. This has been one of my favorite watch experiences ever. :)

#going through this project with you was such a joy! i miss it fiercely #tol really is the final boss of Trust The Narrative #the main storyline is really well done with incisive themes that cuts to the purity culture & the valorization of hopeless yet “pure” pining #but it is an uncomfortable story that requires the viewer to sit in the uncomfortableness #i still highly recommend it #one of my greatest wishes on this earth is to surgically remove the sides from this show #but alas #stand by me #tol romcom rewatch #theory of love #thai bl

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neuroticbookworm · 20 days ago

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The Untamed Episodes: The Second Life

AND WE'RE BACK

In Part 2 of our Untamed discussion, Ben, NiNi, Shan (@lurkingshan) and Bookworm (@neuroticbookworm) talk about our love for Jiang Cheng, our hatred for Meng Yao/Jin Guangyao, and why we will always hold out hope for more Chinese BL.

If you missed Part 1, you can check it out here.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00 - Welcome 00:55 - Intro: More Notes From The Future 01:45 - The Second Life 09:23 - The Second Life: The Fallout of Wei Wuxian's Choices 16:52 - The Second Life: Meng Yao's Dastardly Deeds 26:52 - The Second Life: The Tragedy of Wen Ning 32:35 - The Second Life: Two 'Fools' 37:41 - The Second Life: Various Random Musings 48:18 - Page to Screen (and Audio, and Anime, and Stage, and…) 56:59 - Afterlife: The Impact of The Untamed on BL and Fandom

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation, the Queer Media And Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

I'm Ben, the media critic.

NiNi

I’m NiNi, the VIIBs queen.

Ben

And we are your drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie who are sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

We’re here to talk queer film and dramas, with a special focus on Asian QL.

Ben

So if you like to dive deep into queer stories…

NiNi

If you like cracked out takes on art and commerce in queer media…

Ben

If you just enjoy simping for attractive people…

NiNi

We believe in simping!

Ben

Tune in!

00:55 Intro: More Notes From the Future

Ben

And we're back. We're gonna continue with our huge two part episode on The Untamed. We finally bullied NiNi into watching it. We got her into the booth with Shan and our good friend Bookworm. I really hope you listened to the last episode because we're going right into Wei Wuxian's second life.

NiNi

The second life is so much fun. There's some stuff we talk about in here that I could have continued talking about forever.

Ben

No more beehive commentary from you right now.

NiNi

No more beehives, but I just want the world to know that I love Jiang Cheng.

Ben

Ah, that poor boy. What a hot mess of a man. Angry purple man.

NiNi

My angry purple dream boat, how dare you.

01:55 The Second Life

Ben

On to the second life.

Shan

So this is after Wei Wuxian is resurrected, 16 years after his death. The Jin clan is now holding the most power in the cultivation world. They have the chief cultivator position. Jin Guangyao has had a meteoric rise to power in the time Wei Wuxian has been gone. His father has died. He has gotten married. He has an heir.

We also have a whole new generation of junior cultivators along for the ride with us, notably Jin Ling, the son of Jiang Yanli and Jin Zixuan. Lan Sizhui, whose identity is a mystery that's not very well concealed. [laughs] Although, we did not mention our beautiful A-Yuan in the first life, just know that we love him dearly.

Ben

There's too many things to mention. I didn't even go off on an extended period about Madam Jiang beatin’ the shit out of people.

Shan

I know, right.

[all laugh]

NiNi

She was such a bitch, but she came through when it mattered, my God.

Shan

There's so many characters here, but please know that we love them all dearly even if we haven’t gotten the chance to talk about them all. A-Yuan is very close in our hearts.

Ben

We would just be screaming his name for like five minutes.

Shan

Yes! [laughs] So Lan Sizhui is who we come back to in this new timeline and Lan Jingyi is also around, his best friend—his lifelong bosom companion, you might say.

Major storylines in the second life. We, of course, have Wuxian getting resurrected in Mo Xuanyu’s body, although in the show it's just the same actor the whole time because they didn't want to do that to us mentally, which I appreciate. He is supposed to settle his grudges as part of that spiritual agreement for his resurrection. So he is pursuing the folks who harmed Mo Xuanyu. The big mystery unfolds with trying to figure out the last grudge that he holds. That aligns with unraveling the big mystery of the hidden foes from the first life.

Jin Guangyao, aka Meng Yao, is the villain behind most of the horrible things that happened in the first timeline. And also getting up to all kinds of other noxious shit like marrying his own sister, killing his own son because he's an incest baby, murdering his father via a gaggle of prostitutes, fucking him to death.

NiNi

That's a thing that happened, people!

Shan

Yeah, real normal stuff over there. And recruiting a number of folks to do his dirty work, including villains Su She and Xue Yang. He is a half brother to Mo Xuanyu and responsible for a lot of what he went through, as well. So he's just all up in the business. He also murdered Nie Mingjue and tricked Lan Xichen into being complicit in all of that.

While that's happening, Wuxian is reunited with Wangji. They are following these clues.

Ben

I'm sorry, we have to be clear that, like, by following the clues we mean Wei Wuxian wakes up. It's like, “Wow, this place sucks. Whoa, where'd that arm come from? All right, let's put this arm in a bag. Well, the arm’s pointing that way. I guess we're going there now.”

Shan

That's only in the book, bestie.

Bookworm

So, in the show it's actually just a sword spirit.

Shan

The book is way more gruesome. There’s, like, body parts, it’s a whole thing. The show is a little simpler.

Ben

Okay, yeah, they use a sword but it’s literally like, “oh okay, I guess we’re going east? All right.”

Shan

[laughs] Yeah, the sword points them in the direction they should go to follow some clues.

As Wangji and Wuxian work together to follow the sword spirit, unravel the mystery, the juniors are along for the ride. There is a very devastating arc in Yi City where they meet Xiao Xingchen and Song Lan, who we had briefly encountered in the first timeline, and unravel a whole plot about them being tormented by Xue Yang, who is fucking evil. Very much a fan favorite arc, I think.

Bookworm

It is the best arc and this is also the most tragic arc.

Shan

It's quite sad.

Bookworm

Nobody knew what was going on. Everybody got tricked into it.

Ben

The Yi City arc is pretty brutal because we basically see how Meng Yao has orchestrated these complex events to torture and murder people he doesn’t like. Xue Yang does the same thing to two roaming cultivators—not boyfriends—which culminates in him turning one of them into a puppet akin to Wen Ning and then driving the other one to death by making him commit evil acts unknowingly. Which is… diabolical.

Shan

After the Yi City arc, that is when Wuxian and Wangji discover the truth of Nie Mingjue's death, which was very intentionally perpetuated by Meng Yao. By unraveling that, they caught on to his whole evil shit. This all culminates in a confrontation at Guanyin Temple where Meng Yao is fully unmasked, Nie Mingjue's corpse rises and is really out for some revenge—which, fair enough, I would be too. Jiang Cheng confronts Wei Wuxian after learning about the golden core transfer that he never consented to. And we finally learn that Nie Huaisang was actually the one who was behind Wei Wuxian's resurrection and orchestrated this whole mystery plot as a way to get revenge on Meng Yao for murdering his brother.

While these plot things are happening, there are a couple emotional arcs going on. There is, of course, the continuation of the Jiang family drama and the tension between Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian, which is now complicated by the involvement of Jin Ling, who is Wei Wuxian's nephew and has grown up an orphan because of Wei Wuxian's behavior. Jiang Cheng needs to learn the truth about Wei Wuxian giving him his core. And they have to kind of work through all of their emotions about that, which don't come to any kind of satisfying resolution, because how the fuck could they?

And then finally, there is of course the reunion second chance romance between Wuxian and Wangi. Honestly, their adult romance is so great. Wuxian is resurrected. He immediately reconnects with Wangji. He's having some fascinating mix of memory loss and obliviousness that is his signature and some just emotional denial about the feelings between them. Wangji is having none of that. He is very clear on the fact that he is in love with this man, sticking to his side like glue and not letting anyone hurt him again. So they are traveling together while they solve this mystery. They're having all kinds of very fun ship moments, lots of cute stuff happening. Wangi's getting drunk a lot.

Ben

There's a piggyback scene.

Shan

There's definitely some piggybacking happening.

NiNi

There's a definite wedding. I mean, these guys have gotten married like at least three times in the show.

Shan

Right, exchanging of chickens, very important stuff. [NiNi and Shan laugh] And, of course, standing together publicly in this second life in a way that Wangji was not able to do for Wuxian in the first life. He declares himself very much unambiguously on Wuxian's side in front of all the other clans. He does not give a shit anymore.

And then of course we learn over the course of this arc that Sizhui is A-Yuan and that Wangji rescued him after Wuxian's death, brought him into the Lan clan and raised him. Wow, what a fuckin’ man.

They end on an ambiguous note because this is a censored cdrama. [laughs] So instead of the book ending, which involves them getting married and fucking in a field, we get Lan Zhan—very out of character—deciding to become the chief cultivator [laughs] and Wuxian going to travel alone and them having an ambiguously implied reunion right at the very end of the show. But we all know that they got married and had a lot of sex. That's what happened.

So, yeah. That is the second life in a nutshell.

09:33 The Second Life: The Fallout of Wei Wuxian's Choices

NiNi

There are two or three really big things that stand out for me, in this arc. One is just seeing Wei Wuxian's regrets. He's looking back at his life like, wow, maybe I shouldn't have done that like that. Or, wow, I was such an arrogant kid, I should have thought about these things in a different way. You see him having regrets as he sees the outcomes of the choices that he made in his first life.

Alongside that, the choices that he made in his first life have made him kind of a folk anti-hero. He's now the scary story that parents tell their kids about, “Be good or the Yiling Patriarch will come get you.” He's wearing another face, so people generally don't know it's him. So he gets to hear how people are talking about him 16 years later. And he's realizing, “Fuck, I was evil.”

Shan

He's like, “I did kinda do a genocide. That was my bad.”

Ben

We really should not downplay that this man literally killed thousands of cultivators.

Shan

He sure did.

NiNi

Thousands of people out of anger and arrogance. I mean, you saw how it built up because he really was just trying to mind his own business and everybody kept poking him, but he still killed thousands of people ‘cause he got mad.

Shan

These other clans that hate him, it's for a reason. It's ‘cause he killed all of their family members. It's not some minor petty grudge.

NiNi

Well, in this arc, but when they hated him before, it was because he had power that they wanted and he wouldn't tell them how he got it.

Shan

Yeah. In the second life, his reputation is in tatters and people hate him because he killed everybody they love. Which is fair, in my opinion.

NiNi

It's absolutely fair, completely fair. Totally understand that.

So that arc is a really interesting arc for me because it carries through all the various relationships. It carries through his relationship with Jiang Cheng because at the end when Jiang Cheng is like, well, what am I supposed to fucking do with this? Okay, you saved my life, but also, hi, got my entire family killed.

Shan

Fully.

NiNi

Am I supposed to thank you? I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this.

Shan

Jiang Cheng was spitting nothin’ but facts in that temple.

NiNi

Nothing but facts. He was a hundred percent correct. And he's stuck in this place now because he loves Wei Wuxian. But at the same time, basically his family opened their home to this man and he got them all killed.

Ben

Objection!

Bookworm

Thank you, Ben.

Ben

Wei Wuxian did not murder the Jiang clan. The Wens did, and they were going to do it anyway. Wen Chao's active abuse of the hostages was a prelude to them eventually getting killed. When he left them in the cave like that, he intended for them all to die. Wei Wuxian is not the reason why the Wens sacked Lotus Pier. Madam Jiang may be mad because she believes that her husband is probably Wei Wuxian's father, unconfirmed.

Bookworm

Uh-huh.

NiNi

Pretty much, yep.

Ben

But like, that boy is not the reason why the Wen Clan went on a tear to slaughter their way to more power.

Shan

That's true. But he is culpable for Jiang Yanli’s death and that is the one that hurts the most.

Ben

Yes, that part he is.

Bookworm

I also want to make it clear, like, she ran into a battlefield. That woman gave a month old child to somebody and then she just ran into a battlefield. [laughs]

Shan

Listen, no one's saying Yanli was the smartest bulb. We're not with some of her choices, but NiNi's point, from Jiang Cheng's point of view, is correct.

Bookworm

That's true. The facts and the emotions that he was spitting at that moment was very true.

The reason why the story is so compelling is that you have all of these people who had taken very personal losses and they have very personal emotions that are connected to, basically, a political war for power. What are the motivations behind the people who ultimately want to be at the top? What will they do and how will they manipulate the narrative to just achieve that? If they get a scapegoat, all really good. I'm not saying that Wei Wuxian didn't do all of those things. He killed a whole bunch of people, and he was a dumbass who refused to talk to anybody.

Ben

I'm just being clear that my client, who did kill thousands of people, [all laugh] did not specifically kill his own clan. He shot the sheriff, but he did not shoot the deputy. All right, let's be clear here.

[NiNi laughs]

Shan

Let's get back on track, folks. We got a lot of content to get through.

The reason that Jiang Cheng's arc is so compelling is because, if you think about things from his perspective… like, wow, what the fuck happened to this kid? He was a teenager when his home was destroyed and his parents were murdered in front of him. His brother then—from his point of view—abandoned him, left the clan, to go protect a different family. Adopted new siblings that he prioritized over Jiang Cheng. Never explained himself. Started doing evil shit. Would not tell him anything about why he was doing these things. Ultimately started a battle that culminated in the death of their sister. And then jumped off a cliff. That is what Jiang Cheng's brother did to him, from his perspective.

And so, it is not hard to understand why he both loves and hates him in equal measure, why he struggles so much to understand him and why he wants to forgive him, but he can't. And Wei Wuxian can never make it right. He made these huge mistakes that they can never come back from. They will never be able to trust each other and be close again.

Ben

My favorite thing about Jiang Cheng is the emotional core of why he's so mad at Wei Wuxian is Wei Wuxian will never let him be useful. Jiang Cheng feels like he got no credit for getting them out of the cave. He loses his core because he was trying to save Wei Wuxian. He thought he was gonna die, and he doesn't get to have a noble death. He gets turned into a mundane person.

Then Wei Wuxian helps him get his core back so he can continue to be a cultivator. But then something's clearly wrong with his brother, he then disappears. And they find him again. He's trying to rebuild his clan. Wei Wuxian is supposed to be helping him, but it's clearly not the same. And he can't get through to him. Basically every time he thought he was doing something for Wei Wuxian, Wei Wuxian was doing something for him. But he constantly feels undercut by the brother he admires’ own excellence and ego. Like, he feels like he is forever playing second to Wei Wuxian and he can't ever get over that because now he has Wei Wuxian's core. And he knows that now by the end of the story.

Shan

Oof. That's some, like, real mind fuck stuff.

NiNi

Now he's stuck wondering if all the things that he's been and done since then are because of him or because he has Wei Wuxian's core and therefore because he's Wei Wuxian. So he doesn't ever know if he's good enough, now.

Ben

Exactly.

Shan

My God. Jiang Cheng, they will never make me hate you.

NiNi

Never, never!

Bookworm

Never.

Ben

I understand that angry purple man.

18:13 The Second Life: Meng Yao's Dastardly Deeds

Shan

I feel like Bookworm should talk a little bit about the way the Meng Yao and Nie Mingjue and Xichen stuff plays out in this arc, ‘cause I know you have a lot of strong feelings about it.

[Bookworm and Shan laugh]

Bookworm

All right, let's get to it.

Ben

I really love when I can hear her getting all of her notes together.

Shan

She's getting organized.

Ben

I have to organize my slide deck.

Bookworm

I got notes! All right, so in the second arc, we only start by knowing that Nie Mingjue died this horrible death and we have this mystery of his sword and the sword spirit and leading them around. They're just solving the mystery of this murder who, at the time, they did not know that it was a murder. It comes to heads when they go to the Jin headquarters and solve this mystery by basically having Wei Wuxian turn into this tiny paper man and go and perform—I think it's called Empathy—on Nie Mingjue's stubborn head that is in Jin Guangyao’s secret closet. I cannot believe there are people who defend this man. [laughs]

We get flashbacks of Wei Wuxian finding out exactly how Meng Yao manipulated Xichen into bringing Nie Mingjue and all of them into this sworn brothers pact sort of thing, after the war, and how he used that to slowly erode Nie Mingjue's composure using tainted music. And finally it breaks him. He runs away and the official account is that he is lost, but we know that Jin Guangyao cut his head off with his own sword and then just keep it in his closet. Like a very normal person.

The way this is revealed, you see all of the major players trying to understand what actually happened and why Lan Wangji and Wei Wuxian chose to kind of have this confrontation with this man. And you can see how he pulls the thread in that scene so well. He orchestrated the action where Wei Wuxian pulls out the sword that was sealed because he lost his core and reveals his identity to everybody in attendance—who are all, we have already established, super mad at Wei Wuxian for killing all of their loved ones. And then you see him kind of imply that Lan Wangji has been seduced into helping Wei Wuxian.

Ben

He didn't use a homophobic slur, but we heard it.

Bookworm

Right! Everybody kind of zeroes in on what Lan Wangji is going to do at this moment, and even Wei Wuxian expects him to remove himself from Wei Wuxian's side. He was worried about what this could mean to the Lan sect itself. So he was like, okay I’m just gonna fly solo from here. But it culminates, of course, with Lan Wangji standing by Wei Wuxian and declaring openly that he is gonna walk the single plank path in the dark till the end with him. Which is just, ah, so romantic.

Jin Guangyao, he has basically very successfully isolated somebody who has a stellar reputation in the cultivation world within a matter of minutes. He questioned his motivations and he wanted that person to declare his allegiance. And when that person was forced to do it, that's it. That was almost a surgical precision of political strategy. That was insane.

Shan

It was a real showcase for his skill set.

Ben

On his back foot, he really won that entire encounter.

Bookworm

He did. That was a fight that Jing Guangyao a hundred percent won. I think at that point, everybody wanted to fight them. But obviously, we know that nobody's going to fight Lan Wangji.

So they then flee. We still have, like, two more showdowns after this, which is where he ultimately loses. But this one, Jin Guangyao a hundred percent won. Even if the cultivation world doesn't know that he was a villain at this point, we as an audience are very clearly shown that this was a man who can talk his way out of anything. That is exactly what he has done for so long, for almost 20 fucking years. He has talked his way to the top of a cultivation world. Like, he has risen from being an illegitimate child to the top position.

Shan

His methods are never to get his own hands dirty. His methods for framing Wei Wuxian in the first life, his methods for continuing to do his dirty deeds in the second life are through these villainous dudes that he recruits into his cause. Su She, who is a former Lan cultivator who has a lot of bitterness that he plays on. Xue Yang, who is another one of Jin Guangshan's illegitimate sons. The illegitimate sons are just all over this story.

The way the story unfolds—and this is, I think, one of our probably biggest critiques of the show—they eventually end up pinning a lot of what Wei Wuxian ostensibly did in the first life on Su She as a second demonic cultivator who was controlling people when we thought Wei Wuxian was. That's a change from the book to the show. It's a change I hate a lot.

NiNi

I think about it this way. If Wei Wuxian wasn't doing what he was doing, he wouldn't have created the cover that Su She had to do what he did. So I still blame it on Wei Wuxian.

Shan

Yeah, I'm with you. I think the show wants to let him off a little bit, but I will not be doing that.

Ben

I think one of the things that I find compelling about Meng Yao is because of his starting line, he will never be as powerful as someone like Wangji or Wei Wuxian or any of the other clan leaders and named characters in this story. It doesn't surprise me that he ends up teaming up with people who for whatever reason also cannot achieve those kinds of heights. Like, Su She’s just not as good as Wangji and he's envious of him. And he hates that Wangji won't acknowledge him. He hates that Wei Wuxian won't even remember his fucking name.

Shan

Wuxian every time: “Who are you?”

[NiNi laughs]

Bookworm

It's so good!

NiNi

So amazing.

Ben

It's notable that the three of them who form this little evil trio all hold specific grudges about the way they feel disrespected. Everybody Meng Yao has killed, he kills because at one point or another, they called him the son of a prostitute. And he's like, “Well, I'm adding you to my list.”

Shan

Fuck you, then. [laughs] You gonna die.

Ben

Mingjue originally shielded him and elevated him based upon his actual ability and merit. And Meng Yao took out one of his grievances in the middle of a battle and got caught doing it. That's when Mingjue turned against him.

It's the same thing for Su She. Like Su She wants to have his own clan be acknowledged after Cloud Recesses is destroyed. You can see this man's like, “now's my chance!”

NiNi

But he just sucks.

Ben

He does!

Shan

Yeah, he doesn't have the skills.

NiNi

He just sucks!

Ben

Even the Lan juniors are like, “You are bad. You do not know how to play your instrument.”

NiNi

The fact that they use the fact that he sucks to hide him in the story as a villain until the very end. Like he's playing the song to attack wrong. But everybody just accepts that because he sucks, right? So of course he's playing the music wrong. He's playing it wrong on purpose, but everybody else just thinks that he sucks at it. Him sucking is how he hides in plain sight. I love that so much.

Ben

Meng Yao's whole group is shittier versions of other people. Like, Su She is a shitty version [NiNi laughs] of Lan Zhan and Xue Yang is an insane shittier version of Wei Wuxian.

Shan

[laughs] It's true. They're like the sad little copycats who will never have glory.

Ben

That's what I think is so compelling about it. Like, how much of the story would have been solved by people just not being rude to Meng Yao.

NiNi

He would have found another reason.

Shan

I gotta say, I don't think murder is a proportional response.

[NiNi laughs]

Bookworm

Right. Exactly.

Ben

How much is my finger worth? All of their lives! [all laugh] All of them!

NiNi

Oh my God.

Bookworm

[Xue] Yang was a fucking unhinged serial killer. Holy shit.

NiNi

Psychopath.

Ben

Let me tell you, that actor is my favorite of the whole series. I love his ridiculousness the whole time.

Shan

That's a bold statement. My favorite actor in this is definitely Wang Yibo, who did so much with so little.

Ben

I'm being a little bit facetious there. Of the side characters—

Shan

Fair enough.

Ben

—of the supporting characters, he's my favorite because they were like, what's the direction? “Just serve cunt.” “Got it.”

[all laugh]

Shan

And he's serving cunt, but we cannot overstate that he is by far the most fucked up evil dude in this story. What he does to Xiao Xingchen and Song Lan is disgusting.

Bookworm

My god, yes, let's talk about that.

Ben

We're gonna get into how evil this man is. But when he talked to Wei Wuxian, he's like, “I need your help with this sort of stuff.” And Wei Wuxian is like, “What the fuck? Why would I help you with that?” He's like, “Well, you started all this shit. What is your problem, dude?”

[Ben, NiNi and Shan laugh]

Shan

It actually is really funny. He says, “come on, be my mentor.” And Wuxian’s like, “no, no, this is not what I'm doing. This is not connected to me.”

NiNi

I would like very much not to be a part of this particular narrative.

Shan

Exactly!

Bookworm

No!

Ben

We have to talk about Wei Wuxian reflecting. “Is this the company I've collected? Hold on.”

Bookworm

Exactly! Like, holy shit, if this man thinks that I would help him, what does that say about me and my actions so far?

Shan

What have I been doing? Exactly.

Bookworm

Yes! What have I been doing?

30:56 The Second Life: The Tragedy of Wen Ning

Shan

We haven't actually talked yet about what Wei Wuxian did to Wen Ning, and we should.

NiNi

Oh man. The tragedy of tragedies.

Ben

So Wei Wuxian learns from Wen Qing that the Wen remnants are basically being tormented and experimented on by the Jin clan, who are trying to understand Wei Wuxian's demonic cultivation. When he arrives at this site, he loses his shit, sees that they've killed Wen Ning, and then revives Wen Ning as a puppet—that's the term that they use for, basically, his zombies—and sends Wen Ning on a tear beating the crap out of people. After which he tries to develop a method to restore Wen Ning's consciousness, but he has forever trapped this originally very kind boy in a perpetual state of undead. And he will forever be at the control of anyone who can produce the proper tunes to force him to go beat the shit out of people.

Shan

This is another thing that Wei Wuxian does without the consent of the person involved. He turns Wen Ning, who is a very gentle, loving soul, into a weapon, basically. He turns him into an indestructible ghost puppet who Wei Wuxian uses to perpetuate violence and who other people, we learn, can use to perpetuate violence. One of my biggest criticisms of the story—not just the show, but also the novel—is that it never unpacks what a violation that is on Wen Ning.

NiNi

Basically, if he hadn't done what he did to Wen Ning, Jin Zixuan would still be alive.

Shan

Yes, and Wen Ning would not be holding the guilt of having murdered him.

Bookworm

The Wen Ning situation is extremely tragic, but also there are two things that protected the Wen prisoners of war when they were sequestered in the Burial Mounds. One was the Yin Tally, the power of demonic cultivation or whatever. And the other, even though he was not intended for that purpose, once he was resurrected and once he was given the consciousness back and once people understood that he could be a weapon, I think it also protected them a little bit more. Around a year or so, they were able to survive on that mountain. And I really don't think in such a politically tense period, it would be possible to do that without a very obvious threat that they can just sort of unleash on people. It also backfired so spectacularly because his control can be just transferred to whoever wants to take it.

The Wen Ning that we saw before he was transformed, this boy who tried to help everybody, was so sweet and very shy. Even when he wanted to learn things he was just sequestered. He was secluded, he didn't really interact with people because he knew that the Wen clan was not the greatest. You take that character and you turn him into basically just a walking nuke.

Wei Wuxian: do first, think later. One of the things that really gets my goat is that after the massacre at the Qiongqi Path, he had the fucking audacity to go after Wen Ning. He woke up and he was like, “You murdered these people.” I will never forgive that man for that moment. I was like, what the hell are you talking about? OOF!

Shan

It was brutal. Wen Ning's accidental murder of Jin Zixuan is what caused the entire Wen clan to turn themselves in and be exterminated. It is what led to Wen Ning being basically imprisoned and his mind taken over while Wei Wuxian was dead for 16 years. He was locked up with bolts in his fuckin’ head. They were experimenting on him. When Wei Wuxian was resurrected, he did liberate Wen Ning. But from there, Wen Ning had an extraordinarily lonely existence because he's the only one of his kind. His entire family is dead.

And so, it was nice to see at the end him get some measure of peace by being reunited with A-Yuan again, finding Sizhui and being able to travel together and bond over their dead family and their connection to each other. But Wen Ning is indestructible and immortal and he is going to live a very lonely life. I wish the story had actually unpacked that in any way or Wei Wuxian had ever reckoned with his choices and how he harmed his friend.

NiNi

To me the tragedy goes even further because the reason that Wen Ning is so protected at all by Wen Qing and others in the beginning is because he's already been hurt. When he was a child, he's already been attacked spiritually by, like, this fairy statue or whatever. So he's already weak. And in some ways it feels like Wei Wuxian thought that maybe he could make him strong, but he just ruined him even more. He does make him strong in a way that he wasn't strong before, but the tragedy of it is that he's a sweet, sweet kid that he turns into a monster. And Wen Ning never blames him for it. He is loyal to him till the end.

Ben

Yeah, but again, how much of that is because he's been turned into a puppet or his natural tendency? We'll never know.

Shan

We’ll never know. I love Wen Ning.

Ben

A lot of Wen Ning mentioned in this section, good job everybody!

38:07 The Second Life: Two “Fools”

NiNi

If we’re talking about tragedy we gotta talk about the tragedy of Meng Yao and Lan Xichen at the end, because oh my god, he ruined that man. He destroyed him.

Bookworm

All right, let's go! Round two!

Shan

This is why I do not buy interpretations of canon that claim Meng Yao truly loved Xichen, because—

NiNi

He did not.

Bookworm

Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

Shan

—you do not do that to somebody you love. Absolutely not.

NiNi

He loved that Lan Xichen loved him, but he did not love Lan Xichen.

Shan

Exactly.

Bookworm

He loved the influence that he had on Lan Xichen. He was so over the moon happy that he had this very influential man that he could just control and do whatever the fuck he wants with him.

Shan

So this all culminated at Guanyin Temple when Nie Huaisang tricked Xichen, basically, into thinking Meng Yao was attacking him from behind. Xichen automatically activated his sword, stabbed Meng Yao. Meng Yao on his way out as he was dying, chose not to comfort Xichen, but instead to guilt trip him for killing him and not saving him.

NiNi

Walked down the fucking sword. He pushed the sword in deeper!

Bookworm

He sure did.

NiNi

Bitch!

Shan

Brutal stuff, Xichen destroyed. We know that after this, he went into seclusion for several years to try to recover from the emotional blow of this happening to him. And that is how it was revealed that Nie Huaisang was the one behind all of this to get revenge for his brother.

NiNi

Xichen, man. Oh, my god.

Shan

He’s tragic, but let’s talk about Huaisang. Oh my God, what a good reveal.

Bookworm

Yes, let's talk about the only person who's really good at politics and only wanted to use it for own reasons, not for grabbing power or anything. I mean, it was implied at the end that he would rise to the top. That man knew how to play the game. But he would have just minded his own fucking business if nobody murdered his brother.

Ben

He just wanted to draw his porn and play with his fans.

Bookworm

Yes! Yes!

NiNi

Gaslight gatekeep girlboss. That's what he was doing.

Shan

He wanted to sit in the background gossiping, listening, collecting tea just for fun. But no, these bitches had to go murder his brother, and then he had to get involved.

Ben

He understood what he was up against and his plan is really elegant and it works because he understands his friends. He knows that if Wei Wuxian comes back and you give him a little mystery to solve, this problem will sort itself out. [NiNi laughs]

Shan

He’s like, just point Wuxian at it!

Ben

He's just like, all I need is to bring him back and Wangji has to find him first.

Bookworm

That’s it.

Shan

And he gave them little nudges along the way to help them find the clues that they needed. He found and set up witnesses to be discovered. He was gathering all of the tea and making sure to strategically place it around where Wangji and Wuxian could find it.

Bookworm

Do we see Nie Huaisang at the confrontation when all of this was unmasked by Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji at the Jin headquarters?

Shan

He was not in the room.

NiNi

He's not there.

Bookworm

See, so he saw the goddamn mess Jin Guangyao was able to make of that situation and then he was like, “you know what? I'm not gonna leave this to you bitches anymore.” And then he showed up at both the Burial Mounds and at the temple and he played both of those situations to how he wanted. He was like, “Su She, what are you doing? Why are you being weird?”

Shan

The great thing about the reveal is when you go back and look at earlier scenes, he is in the background of so many crucial scenes where he is gathering information totally unobtrusively. You don't even notice he's there, but he is.

NiNi

I notice, because I notice the fan. I always see the fan.

Ben

It's in the past too, like he's one of the people who picks up on the intensity of Wangji and Wei Wuxian's relationship. He doesn't have any aspirations about it, but he's clearly aware of it ‘cause he watches it happen.

NiNi

Not just watches, I'm pretty sure that he showed Wei Wuxian the porn that he then shows to Lan Wangji.

Ben

He did.

Bookworm

He did!

Shan

And there was that whole segment where he was tagging along on their date, bein’ a third wheel.

Bookworm

That was so funny.

Ben

He is relying upon them to help him achieve his ends here. But, like, they were also his friends.

Shan

That is probably one of my favorite mystery reveals in drama. Very good shit.

Bookworm

Excellent. I remember being just gobsmacked with my jaw on the floor when I read the books and got to the reveal. Yeah, I just blacked out and my ears started ringing. I flashbacked everything that happened for the last five books and tried to figure out. It was so good.

This is exactly why this show has really good rewatch value. Once you know all the information, you see from episode one how all of them connects. It's so satisfying.

44:14 The Second Life: Various Random Musings

NiNi

Let's do the best moments in the second life in reverse. So, Ben, you go first.

Ben

Wen Ning revealing the history of the core to Jiang Cheng. Honestly, the entire set of reveals around the end of the Yi City arc and the reveals at the Lotus Pier, because you get to see how fickle the politics of this era have been. As soon as some folks come forward with some information, everybody's like, “Oh my goodness me, oh no.”

And I really love the confrontation where Jiang Cheng’s being a bitch again and Wen Ning is like, “I've had enough!” And reveals everything that's going on and you see how devastated Wangji is about this too, with him finally piecing together what was wrong with Wei Wuxian all this time.

I also really like Wei Wuxian mentoring the juniors in Yi City. Because he's actually good at it. And it makes you sad for what Jiang Cheng was hoping he would get out of Wei Wuxian. Because Wei Wuxian actually is good with young people and good at teaching them stuff.

Shan

He would have actually been a really good head disciple.

Ben

Yeah, and it's what he wanted. He genuinely had no designs upon Jiang Cheng's legacy. He really wanted to just support him. He thought that maintaining the dynamic that their fathers had was going to be the best thing of his life. Which is what's so sad about it all.

NiNi

I think my favorite moments actually are moments within those scenes that you're talking about. When everything goes down at Lotus Pier and Wen Ning spills the tea, there's a moment when Lan Wangji asks, “Was it painful?” And I just fucking broke. He's just found out that this man essentially sacrificed himself for his brother and never told anybody. And he's remembering all the times he got on his ass about it. And all he can think is, “Oh my god, did it hurt him when they did this, when he took out his core?” I was ruined, absolutely fucking ruined.

And then the time that I giggled, I had a great time, is in the Yi City arc, when Lan Wangji is fighting Xue Yang and Wen Ning is fighting the puppets. And Wei Wuxian is like, well, what am I supposed to do? And then he sees the kids and he's like, “I can do that.” That was a great moment for me as well.

But then my ultimate moment, and I've been obsessed with this moment since I saw it, is when they're back at Cloud Recesses after they've fled the Jin clan and Lan Xichen is hiding them. And he's talking to Wei Wuxian and Wei Wuxian is starting to think a little bit about what Lan Zhan means to him. And then Lan Zhan walks up, hair down and soft, with two bottles of Wuxian's favorite liquor. They should not be drinking in Cloud Recesses because it's one of their 3000 rules or whatever. He don't care. He loves his man. He missed his man. This man could get anything that he wants. So he comes up with two jugs of the Emperor's Smile and his hair all soft and sexy. And I'm like, “oh, they gone fuck tonight!” They did not, but they should have.

Shan

[laughs] In our hearts they did.

Ben

Bookworm, favorite moments from the second life?

Bookworm

One of my favorite movements is the one that I already talked about, the whole confrontation at the steps of the Jin manor when Lan Wangji says that he will walk the single plank path with Wei Wuxian. The reason why it's one of my favorites is, that line is the culmination of 16 years of regret. Lan Wangji was introduced to us as this extremely repressed and extremely by the book, follow the rules guy who grew up in this clan whose politics also seem to be, “We are not gonna do anything unless it becomes a direct and very visible active threat. We're not gonna get into the machinations of the dirty politics stuff. We're just gonna stay above it all.” And then this man sees how not commenting, not acting and letting it become a monster which they can then fight has consequences. And how him not questioning and blindly following all of those rules, how his entire upbringing basically led to the death and complete destruction of the love of his life. And then he had 16 fucking years in solitude regretting all of his actions. Then we finally see Wei Wuxian come back and we see the political world wanting to do the same thing once again to Wei Wuxian. He was like, “Bitch, no, not this time.” And he goes for it. That was such an amazing line and the whole arc of how it came about is why it's one of my favorites.

Another one, this one's subtler. It's all the looks Jiang Cheng gives Wei Wuxian when they get to the Lotus Pier after their confrontation at the Burial Mounds. Like, he stops and looks at Wei Ying and Wen Ning before they enter, like, “Do you really think you can walk into this place?” And then Wen Ning just walks away. Then they get to the main hall and he turns around once again. And he's like, “Do you think I'm gonna let you into the throne room?”And then Wei Ying just sits on the steps without another word.

That man is so good. Jiang Cheng’s actor.

Shan

Let's put some respect on his name. Wang Zhuo Cheng is the actor's name and he is fantastic.

Bookworm

Fantastic. So good. He is such a nuanced character and there's always at least three different emotions that he's feeling at any given moment. Every time it's just a complicated mess of things that's going on in his head and you can see him playing it out. The first time we see him interact with Wei Wuxian after he's resurrected, you see the doubt and you see that he suspects that this is Wei Wuxian. In that scene somewhere, there's a moment where you can see that he is hopeful but he's also just raging. You see that he's so mad and if he finds out that this is Wei Wuxian, he's gonna tear him apart. That's what that looks means. But he's also so sad that is what it has come to. That was his brother and now he wants to kill him, very rightfully so, but you see him just fighting all of those differing emotions inside him and you see it all on his face.

Jiang Cheng, on the whole, that character is just extremely complicated, extremely tragic and he was played so beautifully.

Shan

Y'all talked about some of my favorite moments already, but some additional ones that no one's mentioned yet. First of all, let me just give a shout out to second life Lan Wangji and his sense of humor. That man is fuckin’ funny. He is making fun of Wei Wuxian all the time after he's resurrected. It's so subtle, but it's so well done. I love every scene where he is basically mocking him for not remembering things from the past. [laughs] I love every scene where he's teasing him about, “Bitch, I know who you are because you played our love song as soon as you woke up.” But Wei Wuxian never figures it out. He does not understand that that is the reason Lan Wangji instantly knew who he was. I love all of those scenes.

NiNi

And then at the end he's like, are we ever gonna give this song a title? And he's like, “Bitch, you really can't remember anything, do you?”

Shan

Come on! [NiNi and Shan laughs] It already has a title.

Bookworm

Obviously everybody would have caught it at this point, but in the first arc when they were stuck in the cave fighting the tortoise, when Wei Wuxian asks him what is the name of the song, you see him slowly drifting off, you see the scene blurring, but it is very clear that Lan Wangji mouths “Wangxian” at him,

Shan

Yeah, he says it.

Bookworm

Which is is insane. Like how did they get it in?

Shan

I'm gonna give Wuxian a pass for not perceiving that because he was very feverish and passing out when he said it. When he resurrects in his second life, he doesn't know why he knows the song and he doesn't know where it's from. But it's, like, in his soul and he just plays it without even knowing why. That is why Wangji knows who he is immediately, despite the fact that in the book, he's in a completely different body. In the show, he's wearing that silly mask. All of the scenes connected to that are so funny to me. Obviously, there's a lot of comedy in the drunken shenanigans.

The other part that I like about the second life arc is the moments where Wei Wuxian kind of gives himself away with his fantasies about Wangji. One of the most stark ones to me is, the only memory he has of his parents is of his mother riding the donkey while his dad leads the donkey down the road. And then we see Wuxian orchestrate recreating this moment with Wangji. He gets on Lil’ Apple and he has Wangji walking beside leading the donkey. And the show never actually comments on it, they just show you. It's so clear, like, in his mind, even when he is still not really fully clicked into his feelings, what his fantasies actually are about the life that he wants with Wangji. I love that.

And then, this all culminates in the ultimate family moment of him realizing who Sizhui is. I fuckin’ love that scene at the end of the show where Sizhui runs up and tells Wei Wuxian that he knows who he is. And it finally clicks for Wuxian that this is A-Yuan. And without Lan Zhan saying a word, he puts it together that Wangji has rescued this kid who he was helping to raise in the Burial Mounds and raised him as his own son. And that he did that in large part for Wuxian.

You just see the emotions over Wei Wuxian's face as he just puts this together and looks at Wangji. He starts crying. It's such a perfect, happy, joyful moment, him realizing A-Yuan is okay. He survived. He is this kid that he has already come to love as Sizhui, and then realizing that Wangji did that for him. It was beautiful. And then Sizhui clinging onto his leg and just being so happy to be reunited with his Xian-gege from his previous life. Such good shit!

The show gives it away early on who Sizhui is. So it's not about a reveal there. It's about the emotional culmination of all of them finally putting together who they are to each other. One of my favorite moments in the whole show.

56:32 Page to Screen (and Audio, and Anime, and Stage, and...)

NiNi

All right, we're three hours. We gotta wrap this up.

Ben

The only thing I’ll mention in terms of other adaptations, there is an anime version of this, which better mimics the pacing and structure of the novelization. Also, the giggly version of Wei Wuxian that you get in the anime better reflects what I felt like I was reading. Though I do appreciate the way Xiao Zhan approached the character, who realized that all that giggling would be aggravating as hell. He instead does like a very peculiar smirk, which I think is a much better choice for the drama.

Shan

Yeah, it works better on the screen. In terms of story structure, I do prefer the novel structure. Intercutting between the present and flashbacks, it preserves the mysteries a lot better. The show, if you're paying close attention, you can solve everything far in advance because you're just given a lot more information in chronological order that you didn't have while reading the book. So, I do prefer the structure of the book for the mystery purpose. But the show, I think, made the right choices for a screen adaptation.

Bookworm

We should probably talk about the ending.

Ben

I will say that I don't hate it. Considering the horrors that Twig and I have lived through in queer cinema and BL, they didn't brutally slaughter them or break them up in an unforgivable way at the end of the narrative. I think ending on an ambiguous note is one of the nicest things that this show did for these characters considering the censored nature of this. Everybody who follows any amount of lore knows this is based upon a novel that's way spicier. By not ending on a dour note, I think it makes the curious audience more likely to go read the novels if they want to see what the explicit romance looks like. And I think that's an overall good choice considering the obstacles they were up against. I don't think it's great, but I'm not mad about it.

The whole show is censored, we know a romance is occurring, but technically one isn't.

Shan

Bookworm, how did you feel about it?

Bookworm

Like I said before, I am very used to watching stories culminate in a very ambiguous ending. I've seen so many movies, just ends in a shot of like, I don't know, two people standing staring into the distance. Like Ben said, you are aware that this is a censored BL. That is one of the things that impacts how you receive this ending a lot.

I read the books first, I could see all of the things that they had to walk around to make this get through the censors but also make an effort to depict the romance in any way they can. When I got to the ending, I will be honest, I started screaming—

Shan

You did, I was there. It was actual screaming.

Bookworm

When he stopped Wei Ying, and Wei Ying turns around and they go into the song, I was heartbroken. I was so mad. At that point, I have all the information. I know that they're not gonna end how they ended in the books. But still, it was so heartbreaking to watch this man walk away from Wei Wuxian. It is such an out of character moment. There is no way the Lan Wangji that I read about and the Lan Wangji that was depicted in the show for so long would walk away from Wei Wuxian.

When we eventually got to the end of the song and Lan Zhan calls Wei Wuxian’s name and he just turns around and we end on this frame where we assume that Wei Wuxian sees him and just breaks into the smile… there was no other ending where the art could survive and get to its audience.

I'm sad that we did not see the actual story, but it was left open to our imagination that Lan Wangji found him again and they're gonna get back together, and I was happy with that.

Shan

Almost every cdrama ends this way. And this includes het cdramas, not just queer ones. Where, if a character has been morally gray, if a character has used magic, if a character has done anything that precludes them from being a perfect, pure person, they're not going to get a happy ending. They're going to get an ambiguous ending. This is just how cdramas work. So, I read the ending as exactly what needed to happen to get this show to air.

Absolutely, there's no way in hell that Wangji would ever become the chief cultivator because he fuckin’ hates clan politics and he's bad at it. No way that he would ever do this or that anyone would ever want him to. But I recognized that instantly as Chinese nationalism rearing its head for censorship reasons. He needed to devote himself to the state. He had to separate from Wei Wuxian because they weren't allowed to have a happy ending because they use magic and because they did morally gray things. Wei Wuxian had to go and wander the world alone to atone for his sins, quote unquote. These are all really classic censorship things.

I feel strongly that the creators of this show trusted the fans to know why they needed to do these things and to just brush off the pieces of it that don't make sense and understand the real ending. Outside of the trappings of the plot of what happened there, we saw them exchange these meaningful looks. They did a fucking duet together. And then we end on this beautiful scene of Wei Wuxian standing on a cliff playing their song and turning around after hearing Wangji call his name. And smiling as his eyes fill with tears. That is a gorgeous ending. I am so impressed that they were able to work that in in a way that would not preclude the other things they needed to do for censorship reasons.

NiNi

I'm annoyed, I'm just gonna say it, but I also know why it happens. But the fact that it ends ambiguously is not what bothers me. I really just do not believe that Lan Wangji would ever take over the clan or that he would let Wei Wuxian leave while he did it. It just doesn't fly for me even with everything going on with Lan Xichen. To me they should have just ended where they see Wen Ning and Lan Sizhui off and then they could have just ridden off into the sunset.

Shan

Yeah, they definitely could not do that for censorship reasons, but I hear you.

NiNi

I know, I feel like that's the ending I would have been the most satisfied with. Even if the last shot of them was just of them there, standing together and Lan Wangji giving him that look that says we have to part or Wei Wuxian walking away and Lan Wangji standing there, even that would have been more ambiguous to me because I could have spun it in my head as “oh, he's just watching his man walk away and then he's going to run and catch up with him.” But the whole part where he goes back to the clan and he becomes the clan leader, that just doesn't fly with me.

Bookworm

NiNi, you know what the fix for this is. You just have to read the books. That's the plug.

Shan

Read the books and a long list of fanfic that I will be sending you later today.

Bookworm

Yes.

NiNi

Already, Twig has provided, I have read the smutty parts of the books, thank you, Twig. So I have read the full and proper ending and I am quite satisfied with that. And Shan is gonna send me a list of fics, so I’m fine. I'm not a fic girl usually, but in this story it's absolutely necessary. Just too many gaps that I need to fill.

Shan

That's why there are 50,000 fanfics on AO3 for this show. [laughs]

Bookworm

There are so many fanfics. At one point you read so many of them that you forget what's canon and what's fanon. That's how it goes.

NiNi

I'm waiting for Shan to curate me a list.

Bookworm

I do wanna include an earnest plug for the books, though. I think the creators want you to, they've done their best.

Shan

Yeah, they want you to go there.

Bookworm

Exactly, they want you to go to the books. And without spoiling much of it, if you want a little bit motivation to go to the books, Lan Wangji only gets drunk once in the show. It happens so many times in the books.

NiNi

More than once, more than once. He passes out a few times.

Shan

He does, but there are more extended drunken shenanigan scenes in the book. There are several.

Bookworm

The wall slowly comes down. Wei Wuxian gets slowly just unraveled, trying to understand what the fuck is going on with Lan Zhan, why is he acting like this when he's drunk? Those are my favorite sequences and I hope it convinces you to go read the books.

NiNi

Between now and May it's textbooks and case studies. After that we'll see what happens.

Bookworm

I'm talking to the people, NiNi. I'm also in the same graduate school hell with you.

Ben

Begging the listeners to go read the books.

Shan

Go read these damn books.

01:07:04 Afterlife: The Impact of The Untamed on BL and Fandom

Ben

We're living in the post-Untamed world. This show brought a shit ton of people to BL who had not been here before. And a bunch of people who had not engaged with Chinese daytime dramas, probably ever, genuinely started watching them after this. Despite how the censors may feel about a queer/not queer work being so popular, this show has had a huge impact on many people's willingness to engage with Chinese media. After the addicted stuff, we had basically written off China. And The Untamed, even five years later, continues to be the reason why people keep hoping that the Chinese creative teams will be able to get more stories to us.

The downside of all of this, fans are still super feverish about this. And AO3 ends up getting banned in China.

Shan

There was, as always happens in fandom, people writing real person fiction about the actors instead of fan fiction about the characters. And Xiao Zhan's fans got very upset about people posting smutty real person fiction about him.

Ben

We've talked about some of the fan issues with getting overly possessive about the idols and the actors. This is part of what the party cracked down on. After Word of Honor maybe pushed the envelope too far and the ensuing drama after that, we haven't really gotten much big Chinese BL since then. We started seeing more of it again last year, but there are still projects from, like, 2020 that have been shelved that we've been hoping get released to us.

It's complicated because you can tell that the powers that be want the attention and tourism associated with it, but it doesn't conform to some of their civic management goals. It's not like the Chinese people are any different than everyone else in the world. They eat the fuck out of BL. Like, they're the primary consumers of 2gether. So, I don't know.

Shan

There's been a real dearth of quality Chinese BL since. The few productions that started to come out last year are mostly being produced in other countries like in Singapore or in Hong Kong. We're starting to see danmei productions and adaptations happening in Thailand or in Taiwan, that's how these things are getting made now.

Despite that, the fandom around this show is immense. It is not slowing down. The books have been out for 10 years. The show has been out for six years. New fans still find it every day. Create new fan works every day. New meta all the time. New fanfic all the time. It endures. This is a story that has really connected with people globally. It's something pretty amazing to see.

NiNi

I would like to personally thank Xiao Zhan and Wang Yibo in particular. Because sirs, you did what you needed to do.

Shan

Amen, sister.

NiNi

And what you needed to do was break my heart on a regular basis and be extremely attractive while doing it. Good job.

Ben

I'm really surprised by how much the show succeeded. They did not have a lot of money. They were filming in kind of unsafe ways, two people literally died making this show. But it's kind of wild how much genuine talent they got on this production. Like, nobody's really slacking on this. It's a really impressive project considering this is a web drama.

It's hard to really give final thoughts on the show. I just end up incredibly impressed by what they managed to pull off.

NiNi

I think to close, I will just say a short summary of everything we've just talked about as follows: The Untamed is a story about an itinerant, freelance, accidental genocidal maniac and the man who pays all his bills and defends his life. And it's amazing. And you should go watch it. That's all we have to say.

Shan

It's a must watch, I think, from The Conversation.

NiNi

What's the point of even rating it?

Ben

Yeah, it's not one that I really wanna give a real rating to. Under the Ben scope, it'd be like a 9. Most people should watch it.

Shan

Yeah, it kind of transcends that ratings thing that we normally do. If you care about BL, if you care about queer media, if you care about Asian drama, you should watch this show. It's foundational.

Bookworm

This is a very carefully constructed narrative with so many moving parts. And I think that's the appeal. It just gives you so much to noodle on. Don't be scared that this will not be your cup of tea.

Shan

You'll find something to love.

Bookworm

There is so much going on that something will grab you and you will just be forever obsessed with the story. Go watch it or go read it and then come talk to us about it. Tag us.

NiNi

That is going to wrap us up after three hours and 20 minutes of unedited time on—

Ben

I'm so hungry.

NiNI

—The Untamed.

Shan

We did pretty good!

NiNi

I've been chomping on grapes this entire time, thank god.

Bookworm

I have to go make dinner.