notapplicableinformation - Tumblr blog

notapplicableinformation · 1 year ago

Text

Okay... Firstly, I'm pretty certain the Tribe of Darkness were never humans to begin with, I have no idea where you got the assumption they changed their skin colour from- Secondly, I genuinely don't think this is at all what the writers were going for, but even if they were, which I honesty really doubt it...this sounds silly- I really feel this is really overanalysing the wrong parts here-

Just because one tribe's skin is blue (Weird or not, it's still a visual distinction- If the tribe were actually dark skinned then I'd allow some of the racist allegations, but is fantasy blue really that harmful?-) and the others are human doesn't inherently mean the writers intend anything offensive to people in our reality- It'd be different if this story were exclusively about prejudice of individual tribes and nothing more, but no- It's not...It's a love story first and foremost- Unless there is evidence of direct offence to real people to suggest ill-intention otherwise, which I'd like to ask for- No the prejudice of the Dark tribe towards the Ancients doesn't exactly count.

Okay again, this is, forgive me, another silly counterpoint. No, I certainly don't think this game is promoting interbreeding, or suggesting it... These are geometric shapes with different colours on a colour wheel, you can't possibly say from that alone that there is offensive intention involved-

I genuinely don't believe this is at all intended as offensive, and that it was more art decision directed. I'm going to need some dialogue evidence to feel even the slightest validation to what you're saying here. Though perhaps I misunderstood what you said there, feel free to elaborate if you wish-

I also am a bit confused about the "weird translation of a term into English, given in The Thousand Year Door all sapient species are called humans?" Point, please could you elaborate?

Apologies for my minor irritant, but I think some of this is REALLY gripping at straws here- if there is proper evidence for intended offence rather than art decisions, I'd be happy to hear them! :)

The only questionable art decision I can minutely find credible of bringing up would be through the cragnon designs in Ch5 being perceived as maybe insulting caricatures? But even then, I find it a bit of a stretch to deem the game purely offensive-

There could be some genuine opposition to Super here I'd be happy to talk about though! About perhaps the moral injustice to Bleck's actions, or the hypocrites of the path of the prognostics, or the fact the pixls attain no agency despite the fact agency in the path of love and good is a prominent theme in the story! Something about the story? The game?

But I'm more than happy to leave the discussion here if you want, I sense I'm not really the wanted type of company for your initial query- If you don't like the game, fair enough, but please don't accuse it of being overly offensive unless there is enough substantial evidence for it-

Again, apologies if I come across hostile in any way, and I wish you a good day and thank you for the partake in this discussion! :)

Am I the only one who thinks the Super Paper Mario story wasn’t that deep?

Also felt Blumiere got off too easy for mass attempted murder suicide

Did not empathize with Natasha’s crush at all there…

I enjoyed the game, loved the afterlife chapters, but a lot of execution. fell flat for me.

#super paper mario

14 notes · View notes

notapplicableinformation · 1 year ago

Text

I agree on that front, Blumiere's agency in the decision to destroy existence for the sake of Timpani's loss is an effective way for the game to demonstrate the lengths to which Timpani mattered to him. I simply posed the counterpoint as I'd seen the idea that Count Bleck attained no agency in the decision to destroy existence (with the prognostics being in control) floating around at some point, and thought it would be appropriate to point out that perspective.

Yes, It's quite clear to see the good heart behind Blumiere's callous actions- The game does quite a lot to support this, even through the behaviour he has in the cutscenes themselves. He believes in good, but is in a position where he's telling himself he's meant to be the executor of the prognostics, for his value in life has been lost without Timpani. It's a somber yet interesting approach taken.

Count Bleck seems resigned to his fate, and feels the prophecy is the last sense of purpose in his life. It does indeed make sense that he'd be unwilling to accept anything outside of the fate the prophecy commands, this nature may have even extended to when Blumiere himself sees Timpani again himself?

I loved looking the specific examples highlighted in the post you linked highlighting the intricacies of Bleck's depression, it's so...Obvious yet something I hadn't really realised till now. I was under the assumption his more "not caring" attitude was to do practically exclusively to demonstrate how there is some good left inside of him, along with the fact he is so resigned to the idea his only purpose in life left is to cling onto the passages of the prognostics, with outside events not metering, so long as they don't interfere with the fate he feels duty to execute. But then add the layer of his depression and the dialogue and execution holds even more depth!

I absolutely love your take on Count Bleck's weak will, and his adamance to cling towards a source of greater importance that gives his own life meaning. The Tribe and their influence on his psychology, and by proximity, his cling to Timpani, and then his adamance to stick to the Dark Prognosticus, it's all a truly an interesting approach!

I hadn't thought about that contrast between the two characters! you can really find a lot of intricate contrast upon further looking- Even their designs starkly contrast with each other in a strange way-

If you haven't already, I really recommend the Super Paper Mario video essay on Youtube called "Super Paper Mario: How to Love when you're going to die" by "Skyehoppers". It goes into a lot of detail about the theming of "Love is sacrifice", the effects of love on the narrative, going through a lot of examples between this form of toxic "love" and pure "love". Naturally this abridges some additional contrast between Dimentio and Bleck as well, but also does a lot to highlight Super's core themes in an investing light!

Thank you for providing the transcript, I must say, it's interesting- I didn't realise the Japanese version has Bleck acting more... In favour of the heroes attacking him? "That's more like it"? Huh... The English version doesn't have entirely this same tonality- Interesting! (Also interesting to see he doesn't seem to talk in 3rd person in the Japanese version? Is this a constant?)

I do agree with your point about the prophecy's threat and the idea that a future must be written by oneself....But couldn't you possibly oppose that the heroes themselves were following a prophecy? Sure, it's for the greater good, but the heroes are still resigned to the passages of a prognostics for a fate to be reached? You could debate that because the Light prognostics doesn't have quite the same certainty as the Dark prognostics, as it was written to counter the prophecies of the Dark, but... That still doesn't sit right with me-

I do certainly agree with the prospect Bleck is a good man at heart, and of course, his tragedy makes his garnered happiness at the end all the more effective in the end, though technically I still see it objectively unjustified. I see your points, and they are certainly valid. He's no longer a threat, it's very clear he's genuine at this point too. His view is clearly different...

Though I can sense a potential, hypothetical opposition of "His view only shifted because he got what he loved most back, and is now able to assert his existence and meaning onto her again, making him not actively learn much from his mistakes. The only reason why he changed is because he was able to accept now that Timpani is alive (Though he still pushed forth with destruction EVEN when he knew Timpani was alive before) He didn't deserve happiness, as he didn't have a prolonged change"

Such an opposition can have some merit, but also drawbacks: Blumiere only stopped when he was defeated, NOT when he knew Timpani was alive. He assumedly stopped when he realised the extent of his misdeeds and was humbled by his own defeat. The circumstances didn't allow for prolonged change to take place either, and the happy ending IS beautiful, despite the fact there are objective issues at play here- But alas, I suppose looking beyond the thematic point is a bit unfounded- Actual justice is a murky territory, and he'd not be let off as easily in more moral circumstances in my opinion, no matter the pure his heart, so long as the mistakes he's committed outweigh what can be repented for, morally no happy ending should be met in my eyes-

Some good ending words there, "His redemption comes not from a punitive death that would have achieved nothing meaningful, but from his freedom to live a restorative life." I like them, it articulates a lot of Count Bleck's arc as a whole. Thank you for participation in this discussion, I appreciate it!

....The only thing that annoys me out of all this, this intricate elaboration, hint seeking and analysis, is the fact that we generally don't have an idea of what's "too much" here. Of course, analysis isn't exclusive to writers' intention, but your discussions particularly have a tendency to really go deep into the game, whether it be with your timeline, the depths of Blumiere's character or the intricate Dimentio/ Merloo discussion (This one ESPECIALLY), no matter the amount of convincing points you make, the fact we don't have a base to know what is and isn't too much evidence to pull from to craft theories that seem legitimate annoy me immensely- I'd do anything to hear more from the writers' side about this intricate and weird title-

What did Blumiere actually DO to be redeemed?

I know this sounds like a really silly question, to be frank, it really is, and this isn't me trying to say something of the ending should have been changed in any way, because, no, I think the ending of Super is incredible, with Blumiere and Timpani professing their love at the altar with the incredible music, phenomenal. I just pondered this at one point and thought it would be interesting to look at Blumiere through an objective lense as opposed to a thematic one.

Count Bleck as a character is incredible, so are the rest of the cast, I could go on for multiple essays for each of these wacky characters. One thing I really enjoy is the juxtaposing types of villainy and roles that Blumiere and Dimentio have to each other, how one is intricatley complex and embedded in the narriative with his tragic tale, and the other is quite paper thin on the surface story (Who may have more underneath, though personally I like him being more shallow on the lore for proper contrast to Bleck, but this isn't relevant to the plot nor this discussion), with quite a strong characterisation to pull him through. They're like two extremes of the villain spectrum; between the sympathetic and complex to the more flat twist type of antagonist that balance each other out very well.

Count Bleck is a very well written character, I love the execution of his narriative, and the question at hand of what he did to be redeemed really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of the narriative, but it's mostly just a personal ponder-

It makes sense to me that Blumiere found happiness because of his ability to "love", how his love stretched the boundaries of comprehension, his ability to truly love is telling of Blumiere's inner good nature despite all that has been comitted. His willingness and persistance to look for Timpani to even the lengths of the Aftergame itself cannot be unoted. I'm pretty sure this is a key takeaway of Blumiere's tale that is wanted: That true love is the foundation of happiness, and without it, one is empty and hollow. Overall, the game redeems Blumiere with the sacrifice at the altar, where that true love that he does have is professed, and he is eligible for his happy ending through his act of love and sacrifice, and can now live a happy aftergame with Timpani.

But outside of the incredible symbolic perspective, a hypothetical view where Blumiere's actions are analysed from a critical lense rather than a narriative one; What does Blumiere actually do to be redeemed?

Blumiere was implied to have killed the tribe that took Timpani away and searched to the ends of existence to fnd her, to which when her existence was no more, he sought to destroy everything, as nothing else held meaning to him other than Timpani. (Again, symbolically, all works perfectly well)

He takes in the helpless minions and promises them a perfect world if they aid him in his destruction, though this is a lie, simply so that he can recruit them and follow the passages of the Dark Prognosticus. (In the English version, some subtext implies he manipulated them to join him, though throughout the game, Blumiere still treats his minions with respect and the original implies that Blumiere had a genuine will to help these minions from the start)

When Timpani is seen alive, he doesn't try to stop the plan, but simly persists forth with destruction all until the very end, where when he is taken down, he immedietly stops with his destructive behaviour and aims to profess his love for Timpani one last time in a sacrifice. Thematically, this is brilliant.

But from an active standpoint, I don't think Blumiere really didn't DO anything to get a redemption- His sacrifice, again NOT from a thematic standpoint, hardly counts because he still gets a happy ending with Timpani, alive somewhere else. Blumiere's actions across his life have been villanous, despite his intentions being through the persistence of love.

Technically you could flip the question to say "Was Blumiere at fault for his actions in the first place?" to excuse the actions caused, and therefore be able to justify his redemption more clearly, and I find the take interesting, for perhaps Blumiere wasn't entirely at fault for his own actions.

Blumiere specifically sought for the 'history' of the prognosticus, seen in the Japanese translation, which implies that he perhaps didn't intend to cause harm to anyone and exclusivley wanted to find Timpani. There are also potential implications that he had been controlled by the Dark Prognosticus itself because of this, and the reason why he didn't stop the world's destruction immedietly when he heard Timpani was alive was because he was fighting for control of himself over the will of the Prognosticus over his mind....But I admit I'm not really too sure how probable this idea IS. The game is VERY clear when it wants to show something relevant to the plot foreshadowed, and I feel if this is the takeaway the developers wanted, that this would have been shown directly rather than in implication. Yes, technically it is said that those who read the book do not find happiness, and I think there are hints towards the book controlling him, but...I feel it's a bit vague?

Also, if he were controlled BY the prognosticus, I feel that the narriative weight of Blumiere's character would be detracted, as what makes a lot of his character so powerful is the lengths he went to show how much Timpani meant to him. Him CHOOSING to destroy all of existence because of Timpani's loss is much more powerful to me than the BOOK making him do it, because it shows Blumiere's agency in the decision. Him CHOOSING the destruction of existence proves how, without Timpani, this man did not find value in existence without the source of his true love. Rather than making Blumiere a victim of naivety for causing damages he didn't intend to.

Overall, this isn't really a serious question, I know very well the writers wanted the people playing the game to look at the big picture and perhaps look at the story from a thematic point of view as opposed to an objective one, as this is a fictional game with a story, rather than something to be looked at with an actual objective lense, but it was a fun ponder regardless. I'd be curious to hear any throughts on the matter. Have a nice day!

#super paper mario

30 notes · View notes

notapplicableinformation · 1 year ago

Text

Oh yeah, that's completely understandable- I can imagine the prospect of "extra lore" that doesn't have relevance to the main plot can be quite annoying if you don't care enough about it-

Okay that's....A bit unserviceable in my opinion, I don't see how it comes across as something "with no research into it"...And keep in mind this is a fictional Mario game- And I honestly don't really see the game being offensive or harmful in any way, at least in the narrative aspect- But it's a fair take- Is there anything specific that made you think the writing was "stock" and daresay cringe? It's....Simple, yes, but also quite concise in my eyes- Or was it the fact they used quite a typical stereotype of star-crossed lovers? Just to be clear, this isn't me trying to force any different opinions in any way, I'm genuinely just very curious to hear an opposing side of the spectrum, it's not something I get the opportunity to ask about a lot-

The..."Dark equals Evil" never stuck out at all as the symbolism I was referring to...It's actually quite an unsupported takeaway in my eyes- I'd actually like to enquire where that idea came from, if you'd be willing to elaborate- To me, it's more the aspects of "Love" and "Sacrifice" which I feel could be elaborated on to essay length, (Which it has been a few times now, an excellent essay I've seen would be "How to love when you're going to die" on YouTube) using methods of juxtaposition, insight to characterisation and thematic ties, but as said, if you're not really willing to hear it then fair enough, no matter what anyone says, it'll probably just come across as surface level to you. :)

Well, one way that I could potentially agree with your viewpoint would be through the idea that the Count has been lying to his minions the whole time, and the fact they aren't aware they aren't getting the happy ending they were promised, so it's unjustified they'd support the Count for a happy ending, especially as in this case, the minions certainly look more like they joined Bleck not to support his cause, but to get perfect worlds, which stains the mood potentially....But on the other hand, there is quite a lot of implication that the count and the minions do actively care about each other beyond the motive of a perfect existence. Yes...Some of this nature is found in the extra lore dump, but I do feel some of it IS implicit in the cutscenes themselves, but I've gone on a tangent enough- Yes, I don't particularly like the fact the Count never actually admits he lied to the minions, but in hindsight, I don't really think it would have changed all that much. The minions probably already figured Bleck was lying by this point in any case-

And with Bleck, his "paradise" from an objective point of view, I certainly agree is unwarranted from the scope of his actions, but thematically, I certainly do think it does work- I'd be more than happy to elaborate on my own perspectives if you wanted me to, but I'm afraid I'm already coming across as hostile with such an elongated response when in reality, I'm really just curious to talk about an opposing perspective!-

Though if there is one thing I'm not even going to argue about: This game is weird. Surface level perspective or the deep waters perspective, yeah this game doesn't feel like a Nintendo one- To me, it's what makes the game special, to another, it might be a reason to burn it alive.

Well...if this game didn't do it for you, I'm pretty sure there are some other games that did! As I said, the partners for me in TTYD never spoke to me and felt more plain than anything to me, even with discussion and attempt to see other discussions, I never brought myself to care about them, while all I hear is unanimous appraisal for them most of the time-

Anyway, I hope you have a good day! :)

Am I the only one who thinks the Super Paper Mario story wasn’t that deep?

Also felt Blumiere got off too easy for mass attempted murder suicide

Did not empathize with Natasha’s crush at all there…

I enjoyed the game, loved the afterlife chapters, but a lot of execution. fell flat for me.

#super paper mario

14 notes · View notes

notapplicableinformation · 1 year ago

Text

Apologies I had the intention of properly responding to your other response, but I hadn't properly made the time for it! I'll get to it when I finish conjuring up this one-

For me, I actually find Super's simplicity a very beautiful thing, it juxtaposes what I see to be a detailed narrative. I mean, the game is marketed with the most generic name, a rather generic cover art and a simple platforming game. And yet I feel the game really subverts expectations on a very peculiar but very interesting plane- And I absolutely agree, complexity in of itself doesn't equate to powerful writing. Super brings this wonderful theme of love, tying it together symbolically across the chapters and between a broken man with his wife in a way that really can only be appreciated if you...Well... Like the game in the first place as we established- I like your comparison to Undertale- Thinking about it, the two beautiful games do bear quite a bit of resemblances in any case, some surface level similarities, but interesting ones nonetheless, I can imagine the two games attract a similar type of crowd- considering that Undertale is primarily character focused, and oriented on your decisions, if you don't care about the characters in the first place you wouldn't be able to appreciate the genocide and pacifist routes beyond: Child murderer comes to town and kills a bunch of monsters.

The lore in Super I find to be...So..So strangely packaged. The fact so much of it comes from the bartenders (as well as the Chapter 5 throne room and of course the gateway between Flipside/Flopside) and not from the game and narriative itself is...So peculiar, almost- It would make sense if the lore were perhaps just some small pieces of extra information about plot points we were previously heavily exposed to, but no, we get so much extra lore about the most minute of plot threads- What's stranger is the fact a lot of the plot threads hidden in the game are, as you said, generally..incomplete- It makes it entertaining to read fan interpretations and analysis pieces like the ones of yourself, though no matter how much substance is given to these interpretations, we won't know officially what is and isn't intended for the narrative- What's worse is that we don't know what "too much of a stretch" is for this game a lot of the time, what's just overanalysing instead of intentional, it leads to a lot of very interesting theories to be sure-

I too find the game beautiful, strange in its own right, certainly not for everyone, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's unanimously agreed to be a strange game. There IS a lot to the narrative, I'm not even going to try and deny that, but understandably, to an uninvested individual, it can come across as "Writers had lots of ideas but didn't know what to do with them so they threw them in a bar and wrote a love plot instead" which that's understandable, I do personally feel it's a disservice to the game- :)

Am I the only one who thinks the Super Paper Mario story wasn’t that deep?

Also felt Blumiere got off too easy for mass attempted murder suicide

Did not empathize with Natasha’s crush at all there…

I enjoyed the game, loved the afterlife chapters, but a lot of execution. fell flat for me.

#super paper mario

14 notes · View notes

notapplicableinformation · 1 year ago

Text

I mean, for me I find the game at a surface level to be quite simple, but then when looking at the game from a symbolic point of view, there's a LOT there, but you have to be willing to look for it, so yeah, I can understand your point of view- Even if I don't exactly agree with it.

I admit I'm incredibly biased, considering that I'm someone that does like to look for the deeper meanings beyond the game (I like writing a few discussion posts on this game in particular-) The thematic ties about love, the geometric design, it's all really wonderful to me at least.

Blumiere is a character I've had a lot of "back and forth" for over the years- Because from an objective point of view, I agree, he did NOT do anything to deserve redemption- And the fact from the base perspective, it basically looks like the game is saying: This guy had a tragic backstory and deserves to be happy because of it. Symbolically, I do think it works, and in the context of his character, I do kind of think it works though too. I actually wrote an "essay" called "What did Blumiere actually DO to be redeemed"which kind of coincides with what you were saying if you want to look, but then going over that symbolic and narrative side, but then again, even if I were go over what I to think a beautiful narrative...

If you just can't get yourself to be attached to the material, that's fine! I mean, for example, I know how much glory is given to Thousand Year Door, yet still, after all these years, I find no attachment to the game at all, despite it being a good game. No matter how many times I hear about how perfect the game is, I never really got invested in any of it, despite really trying to be- not the partners, not the worlds, not the combat, not much at all beyond the nice visuals-

I had received a very in depth response by @mochilorddrakeinferno to said post which I think highlights a lot of key points about why Count Bleck is generally let off easy in the narrative- An extract from their response details:

"Count Bleck is, at his heart, a good man. Though it is perhaps a fair critique to say that not enough is done in the story to show this and to demonstrate his redemption, I think the redemption we see is less one from something as nebulous as evil, and more a liberation from a toxic idea and influence that has twisted around his essentially kind heart and driven him to evil. Even within the shroud of Bleck, though, he saved lives with no expectation of reward. He took in those the world had left to rot, given them a home, a kind of family. He loved, truly and deeply as anybody. And somewhere in there, he hoped that there might be a world better to others than it was to him, even if he was not able or willing then to truly commit himself to it.

For what he materially did in a more objective sense to justify his redemption... Well, that depends on your perspective, and your style of justice. From a punitive perspective focused on paying back the severity of what he had done and planned to do, I don't know if anything could redeem that. But from a more restorative point of view, by the end he was no longer a threat. He had abandoned that which drove him to become one, and showed a full willingness to sacrifice his life even as he had just found meaning in it once again in order to undo the damage the Chaos Heart had done. That it seemingly didn't erase him in the end doesn't really change that he was fully prepared for that to happen."

The extract doesn't give justice to the full detail of their response, but I feel it does highlight some points about why Blumiere was redeemed so easily- But all of this, as I said before, people are different and see value in different things!

Nastasia has the "crush" because of the fact the count saved her, a bit more information can be learnt in Carson's "Of Bats of Men" story, but yeah, fair enough- Beyond the fact Blumiere saved her life, and the fact Nastasia seems to have an admiration towards the love that Blumiere was once able to attain, It doesn't really go much deeper than that, for me, that's actually fine- I still very much enjoy her as a character, but If you don't like the characters, you don't like the characters!

The Afterlife chapters were indeed enjoyable, albeit, I do agree it gets a bit tedious at times- The whole game is a mixed cluster of thrown together elements, at times it makes it surreal this is a Mario game of all things, but to others I can certainly imagine it gets annoying quickly, especially to veterans of the Paper Mario franchise- I mean, I love the 2D platforming design. It makes the game more distinguished and to me holds nice juxtaposition to what I consider to be its more detailed writing. If this game were designed in a similar way to TTYD, perhaps more people would like it, but I feel SPM's identity would be more diminished-

And then, of course, at the end of the day, I believe we're all allowed to have preferences! But then again, I'd be more than happy to stir up some discussion and detail more concisely why I disagree with the idea SPM doesn't have that much depth if you wanted to, and of course, I'd be very interested in hearing your side of the argument in contrast as well! All if you want to though.

Apologies for the long response, this was me already trying to keep a discussion condensed- I hope you have a great day! :)

Am I the only one who thinks the Super Paper Mario story wasn’t that deep?

Also felt Blumiere got off too easy for mass attempted murder suicide

Did not empathize with Natasha’s crush at all there…

I enjoyed the game, loved the afterlife chapters, but a lot of execution. fell flat for me.

#super paper mario

14 notes · View notes

notapplicableinformation · 1 year ago

Text

What did Blumiere actually DO to be redeemed?

#super paper mario #count bleck #paper mario

30 notes · View notes

notapplicableinformation · 1 year ago

Text

In Defence of Super Paper Mario's Gameplay and Design

Super Paper Mario is commonly referred to as the "Black sheep" of the Paper Mario games, segmenting the original "good" Paper Mario games and the "bad" Paper Mario games.

The first thing that I thought the first time I picked up Super, without any pretext of the game in advance, is.... that it looked bland, simple and boring.... Though...Upon playing the game...I was met with the most unexpected experience. The simple design of Super Paper Mario drastically juxtaposes the, by proportion to the previous Paper Mario titles, much larger story beneath it.

The simple gameplay, the simple design, help keep a player in line with the belief that this is a "Mario" game in an original way to how the previous titles do. The previous titles get away with a non conventional Mario type of gameplay because it still attains attributes that you can identify with "Mario". More of the NPCs (At least a lot of them, not all of them obviously) are traditionally Mario, the engagement with the game, regardless of the unique locations, still feel like Mario.

But with Super...It doesn't really have that. It really feels like one of the developers had a fever dream and was ademant to make it into a game, but then realised last moment that Mario had to be there- The platforming element is something more traditionally Mario, it's one of the few factors of the game able to keep the player able to connect this game with "Mario" and by giving the game its own identity.

The game being entirely 2D instead of the 3D world with 2D characters also helps to distinguish the game with its own identity, and I feel the geometric digital aesthetic compliments this vastly simplified execution of gameplay. Had Super been an RPG game like its predessecor, while, yes, it would be more in line with the prior titles, I also believe Super would be seen as even more strayed away from what Mario IS as a whole because it doesn't have anything else "Mario" to fall back onto...Also Super wouldn't be its own thing, it would be naturally linked to the originals' identity instead of having a unique one of its own.

I also see quite a few complaints regarding the geometric design of the characters, especially the NPCs and I would like to provide my opinion on the matter. Mario characters are typically not geometric. They're rounded. Shape theory dictates that this more rounded design leads to more approachable types of character design. Super is filled with practically entirely edged characters, especially the antagonists, these edges activley enhance the characteristics of the antagonists. I've done a more detailed analysis of this topic on an earlier post.

The NPCs being bland and mostly uncharacterised, along with the partners isn't something I particularly see as a problem either, this works in Super's favour. Super is a game about the destination, NOT about the characters you meet along the way. The story is concentrated on a constant focal point that gradually increases development over the course of the game. More attention is focused on keeping the narrative of the game focused on the villains and your heroes. Thousand year door is a game about the adventure, not necessarily about the destination directly (of course the destination is important, but people usually remember the amazing partners and journey MORE than the ending itself, at least I think, if not, I apologise). The main villains are relevant to the story, but Mario going on an adventure is more prioritised by the developers, so naturally a developing party cast and detailed NPCs are more important than an expanding overarching narriative (Not to say TTYD doesn't have a narriative, but just to say it's less prioritised, just like how Super doesn't prioritise NPCs and partners, even though they are still present)

If there is one key complaint of the gameplay that I DO agree with, it would be the bosses. The stakes are demolished when using the infamous Bowser and Carrie combination- It makes some of the serious moments, specifically the finale, far less impactful. If the final boss had a timer and an actual fail screen where you see the ruins of all worlds...Or something to that extent- if you happened to die in that final battle, I feel the stakes would be far higher-

Another complaint I agree with would be the world design in some areas. It's a bit inconsistent, albeit charming. I'm not particularly a fan of Ch1's rushed transition between the grassland and the desert, nor of Ch5's bleak dryland aesthetic or Ch3's odd transition between the bitlands and Francis' castle. Having the areas be perhaps tied to the colour of the pureheart along with the areas themselves bing quite consistent (Like how Ch8 was all in Castle Bleck, Ch4 was all in Space , Ch2 in Merlee's mansion, as an example) probably would have bettered the design.

Overall, I think the game Super Paper Mario is a very well designed title, along with the rest of the series, though this one in particularly stands out to me. The series has a lot of diversity and appeals to an array of different types of people depending on what they personally value in a video game. I love all of the titles very much, despite how different they all are. Thank you for listening to my extensive discussion.

#spm #super paper mario #paper mario #mario

14 notes · View notes

notapplicableinformation · 1 year ago

Text

Appraisal of the Character designs in Super Paper Mario

There are an array of attributes from this game that I favour, one of which being how the designs are so non conventional to the general Mario design, yet are able to create very refined impressions of the individual characters in the story.

Super Paper Mario has a unique style exclusive to this entry in the paper Mario series, the geometric design is one I find charming, and well utilised, even though it contrasts so very heavily towards the more smooth traditional Mario characters.

One way I believe that Super Paper Mario’s design is well crafted would be through the implementation of Shape theory to create intricate impressions of its pressing as well as original cast.

Shape theory generally states that:

Circles are generally used to convey organic and natural shapes, and are generally used to evoke welcoming and approachable feelings. Squares are generally used to evoke trust, support and reliability, whilst triangular types of shapes are used to evoke a sense of intellect , unpredictability or fear. (Of course this is just the surface level, these shapes can be used to allude to entirely different impressions and serve different purposes across different contexts)

In prior Mario titles, generally, the designs would be lenient on a more smooth tone, even for the antagonists. (Bowser is generally not presented as an overly intimidating character, especially not really in the RPG series, even when he’s doing something evil, he lacks this sense of REALLY being taken seriously) The smooth tone of the characters enlightens the mood and provides a sense of consistency across the designs in the franchise, but this game deviates a lot from the general design basis of the Mario world, and I think the game does a good job at achieving this.

The best example of this I believe would be the designs of the Count Bleck team.

The designs are all very visually distinct, all being of different proportions with a minimalistic amount of detail to convey the personalities of the characters quite well. The Count Bleck team are built with mostly squares, which helps enhance the stability and trust visually that the minions and Count Bleck have with one another. This is an interesting constant for the antagonists except for with Dimentio. (Mr.L doesn’t count, he’s Luigi.)

Shape theory provides the visual incentive that, by design alone, that there is something off with his character. He’s not quadrilateral like the other minions and is far more angular, visually implying that he may not be as loyal to the Count as the others. (His angular design also serves as a great dichotomy towards his nonsensical dialogue, the angular design contributes towards making Dimentio a more intimidating threat. The manga takes a different approach with his design, changing it for a drastic lack of edges, which changes his impression drastically to me through design alone.)

I also like that the villains have a very distinctive palette that works well with one another.

(Funnily enough, one of the only annoying parts I have with the colour coordination is why they didn’t give Mimi either different coloured legs/arms or why they didn’t give them an outline, as she looks like a floating torso and head when in the dark Bleck meetings, ha ha)

The main and really only “ issue” that I do have with the geometric designs would be that of the scattered NPCs, but I don’t think it’s worth noting too much. The previous titles poured more emphasis to the design of the NPCs as they were games predominantly about the adventure as opposed to the destination. Thousand year door implores adventure, and uses very versatile and diverse character designs to immerse you into the worlds you explore. Super sticks to pouring its efforts into the story as opposed to really the worlds you explore. The NPCs being a bit…uninteresting, flat if you will, may have been to prevent distraction of the player to the key goal of the story, and the key narrative between Bleck and Tippi.

Overall, I love the design of this game and think it’s very original. I haven’t seen many geometric styles utilised across media, but I think this is very well done.

What are your thoughts on the designs of this peculiar title? Have a nice day!

#super paper mario

28 notes · View notes

notapplicableinformation · 1 year ago

Text

Thank you for your response. I suppose that I was fixing upon an odd singular point as opposed to looking at it all from the big picture- even though I was well aware that the point of Bleck's and Dimentio's similarities is that they are thematically opposing in multiple ways along within their motivations, I was really just focusing on the one specific point that Bleck didn't seem entirely honest with the minions about what they seemed to be offered when joining him, and looking at the situation with the mindset that Bleck's deeds were unrepented for regardless of intentions.

I suppose that this shpould be treated more as what it actually is- a narriative, not really a natural situation that full ethics and direct debate upon "accountability" need to be taken into account- Again, it's interesting that you note that Bleck is specifically looking for the history in the Prophecy, changing some context of his characterisation, like you said. I suppose that Bleck being directly under the control of the prophecy divides a line between the misdeeds committed by him and the "Prophecy". It's...interesting.

I suppose the actual telling to the minions about the fact they were going to die with the void isn't... too relevant in the narriative context- I still think it would have been interesting though ,as the minions were still lied to to some extent, though with this japanese version, it's interesting to see that the minions aren't just by Bleck's side for the sake of getting a new world...They're by his side because they actually trust and care about Bleck.

To be honest, Bleck is certainly potrayed as a somewhat good leader towards the minions throughout the story- Bleck never punishes any of the minions for failing their duties and instead ponders upon the strength of the heroes. The punishments are dealt out by Nastasia to the minions and not Bleck. There is a semblance that even when controlled by the prognosticus to dish the deeds of the prophecy, that Blumiere's kindly nature still resides underneath....It's amazing how the localisation is able to alter the viewpoints of how one can see these characters by some minor script changes alone- I had NO idea that O'Chunks actually forced Bleck to take him as his minion, that....Wow that's different to the localisation- (Wait, but if O'Chunks asked Bleck to take him in the first place, wouldn't Bleck have only taken in O'Chunks if he had seen him written within the Prognosticus? How legitimate can Count Bleck "saving" O'Chunks be if he's trying to merley fulfill the wishes of the prophecy as he would supposedly need him? Apologies for this.

You mentioned about the control of the prognsticus being 'varible' but I can't exactly wrap my head around how that would work. Blumiere retains his memories in this executor of the prophecy state, and even upon seeing Timpani, he pledges forth in the destruction of the prophecy. If the remembrance of Timpani is a part of Blumiere and not the "Bleck" in the story, wouldn't there have to be at least some active descion of Blumiere to pursue the dark prophecy?

He says how "a life without Timpani is meaningless", thus...He can't be entirely opposed himself to the destruction, right? Again my apologies for this, I'm most likely greatly missing the point again. Are there points within the dialogue or the narriative where the struggle between the "Bleck" and Blumiere faces of his character are directly present, "fighting" for control in a direct sense?

I undoubtedly agree about your point outlining that there are discrete ties between Bleck and Dimentio and that the nature of their existence is what differentiates the two quite well and appreciate the amount of indepth reading you've done for the Merloo theory to parallel the nature of Blumiere's character. While I'm not entirely certain as to if the Merloo theory is what the writers intended, your articulation of that theory is admirable. I wouldn't be surprised if you yourself managed to make more ties between the two characters with your theory than the developors actually intended-

So, yeah, in conclusion, I was certainly fixing on an irrelevant point, I can see that. The transcript differences are very interesting, I'll find some time to go over the Japanese one when I find the time. The only main thing I'm a bit bothered with is the prophecy's control in Blumiere. If there can be a source where the struggle between Blumiere and Bleck is directly defined, I would greatly appreciate it!

Thank you kindly for your response and I hope that you have a good day!

Count Bleck's "Lie" to the minions and its impact to the Story?

I'm probably missing something narratively, but...as much as I like Count Bleck, I didn't like the fact that there wasn't a scene where Bleck actually tells the minions that they never were going to get their perfect worlds they were promised. I understand that Bleck needed to be seen as a good guy by the end for the sake of the beautiful ending, but...He technically did the same amount wrong as Dimentio, if not more (within the context of the actively confirmed canon) and doesn't..really need to account for any of it-

I understand that the point of these two being so similar is to differentiate upon the fact that their motivations are so different, tying really well into that theme of love and time the game does well to highlight, but that's not necessarily the part I want to highlight-

I like Dimentio being the plot twist villain, and like the idea that the intentions between the two characters are thematically opposing, (no matter what theory of Dimentio's origin, the thematic opposition between the two characters is quite clear) but would it make sense for there to be a scene where the villains are told Bleck's true intention and choose to stay by his side despite Bleck's lie?

Perhaps the scene isn't particularly relevant in the grand scheme of the story, but I'm interested to hear any thoughts as to if Bleck not telling the minions the truth is actually important or not- For example, Bleck exploited O'Chunk's depression, telling him he's offer him a new world if he stuck by Bleck's side, maybe not while being entirely under his own control while being partially possessed by the dark prognostics. But really he wasn't ever going to get any world in the first place.

Yes, Bleck was possessed but I still think maybe there could have been a way for Bleck to be honest with the minions in either the Ch8 meeting or the Dimension D conversation when the effects of control of the prognostics have worn off- Would it break too much of the moment between Tippi and Bleck or is it just irrelevant clutter to the narrative that isn't necessary?

Thank you for your time and have a nice day!

#super paper mario #count bleck #dimentio

33 notes · View notes

notapplicableinformation · 1 year ago

Text

The Wedding

Super Paper Mario is a wonderful title, and I'd like to provide some respect to it. This is a scene from one of the animations I had made, I think it's alright, but I'd be happy for some critique! (It's very dark, I am aware, I have some renders with the lighter backgrounds, but the textures on the models looked unnatural.)

#super paper mario #spm #count bleck #bowser #princess peach

48 notes · View notes

notapplicableinformation · 1 year ago

Note

Thank you for the document, I appreciate it!

How does whether or not Dimentio is the son change whether or not he wrote the Dark Prognosticus? I agree that it's quite implausible to think that he himself wrote it (Though I wouldn't be surprised if he had found a way to manually alter the book...Somehow- In order to make Bleck reconsider taking him into the Bleck group. What are your general thoughts on that premise?) and if he is Merloo, then he would have needed the information of the Dark Prognosticus in order to construct the light one- Do you think that there is at least some form of connection between the Master magician and Merloo, and how does it tie together if Dimentio isn't the son? I don't think that you were suggesting that Merloo himself was the master magician or anything of that type- Do you think that the miraculously survived 'son' is relevant to the story at all?

2. Yes, I inferred that the Light Prognosticus would be difficult to read, but the Dark Prognosticus seemed to me that as any one could "obtain" the book and "not find happiness" that it would be possible for them to technically read it regardless of a language barrier. The fact Bleck was able to be practically controlled by the book upon opening it didn't cross my mind at first but it's an interesting point. Also your point that Nastasia didn't go insane reading the Prophecy is interesting too, but I understand she was likely abiding by what the book wanted her to do anyway- I like your usage of the "power of chaotic love" being used. It creates a very interesting tie between the theme of love in the story and the different forms of it! My apologies for the oversight that Dimentio would have needed to have the knowledge of the events in the Dark Prognosticus to even seek Bleck out in the first place-

3. Oh I see- I reread Carson's stories and I see where the at least 1,000 year lifespan comes in- The magician was alive between the creation of Pixls and throughout the Pixl Uprising- Apologies for that, thank you.

4. What are the Magiblots supposed to be in the context of the story? You mentioned previously how the Japanese version ties the names of the Maglibots to the Ancients, but I'm quite curious as to why they are tied to the ancients? Why not the Tribe of Darkness? Apologies-

You also mention that the Magiblots have Dimentio's style of diamonds present. Do you think that's actually an intentional thing or simply just a design gimmick due to the more geometric art design of this game-

It does seem a bit strange that the designs of Merloo and Dimentio have no correlation though- Merloo or not, it's a very odd decision-

5. Fair enough. Though this does tie in back to the questions I have for point 1 about the relevance of the son and what purpose the writers would have had to say that the son miraculously survived if there is no actual connection to anything else in the game.

6. Well, either way, canonical or not, in your mind, how would you outline chronologically the events of Merloo's story and how they tie in to the overarching lore in SPM? (I agree that it would be a LOT more narratively satisfying to have Dimentio being Merloo himself than being a descendant, but how much would the lore change if Dimentio were a descendant instead of being Merloo?)

Thank you very much for your time! Your insightful responses about lore for a 16 year old relatively niche wacky Mario game are very investing!

Greetings, I hope that you are well: I'm very interested in your Dimentio/Merloo theory. It is a great theory, and I think it works quite well as I believe it ties in quite a few loose ends and serves a wonderful further contrast between Dimentio and Bleck's characters, though there are a few points I would like to enquire about towards the theory:

Does the theory pose that Merloo IS the son of the Master Magician if Dimentio is Merloo, if that's the case, wasn't the son not heard from again after the accident? The usage of "some say" presents the survival of the son is ambigiuous so...Wouldn't the people know that Merloo is the magician's son if he is presented as important enough to get a stain-glass window?

Is the prognositicus directly stated to be difficult to decipher? I understand that the Light prognosticus would be difficult to transcribe as it was activley written. But who actually wrote the dark prognosticus? And when was it actually made? "But no person after obtaining this amazing book ever found happiness". The fact that obtain is used here possibly suggests to me that anyone who had the book in their possession never found happiness and to me that implies that there isn't an "old language" barrier needed to be crossed for the Dark Prognosticus to be read. The Light prognosticus was written by the ancients to counter the prexistimng Dark Prognosticus, so to me it makes sense that the Light Prognosticus would need to be deciphered to understand, but not the Dark. I may be missing something though.

This would imply to me that Dimentio still could have stolen the Prognosticus when the count wasn't looking, even if he wasn't Merloo, and still would have been able to read it.

(I wouldn't be surprised though if the writer (Co writer Merloo) who wrote the light prognosticus by using the Dark Prognosticus this measure likely DID go insane having to read the Dark Prognosticus and transcribe it in his language thoughm, the hypnotic - And that does make me ask why Merlumina didn't go insane if she ALSO contributed to the writing of the dark prognosticus but this is a bit off topic-)

If none of the ancients in the bridge between Flipside/Flopside are alive anymore, only their descendants, is there direct evidence of the lifespans that could dictate that could Merloo still be alive? You make the point of "the public had have had no way to know of the Pixl Queen until the uprising of 1,000 years later". Please can you explain the evidence of this towards the ancients being able to live at least 1,000 years? I probably missed something when going over Carson's dialogue- You also mentioned that the apprentice had lived for at least 1,000 years. Is there direct proof of this within the game?

Is there much direct symbolism between Merloo and Dimentio? As you touched on in the Lore wiki, the visual ties and pallete are very weak, and symbolism across the type characters in that respect doesn't seem to viable. Even though the painting has Dimentio's colours, the painting also has other colours in the background that aren't affiliated with him. Had Merloo any symbol of a diamond, or any design connection of the sort, I think the connection maybe be a little bit stronger?-

"Oh, and some say the son of the magician miraculously recovered from the accident. If so, the bloodline of the magician could endure... Did they find happiness? Or otherwise..." Was this line different in the Japanese verssion to refer specifically to the son finding happiness? Doesn't this alter the meaning of the line quite a bit?

I think that the theory is a unique and interesting approach to Dimentio's characater and makes him seem far more interesting, and honestly I'd love to see it being official lore for the character, though, when comparing how the rest of the game presents its lore, the theory seems a bit...farfetched, even with the abundance of evidence provided.

When looking at how lore is generally presented in the game, the lore seems a bit...Scattered..outside of Count Bleck and Timpani's as well as some of the direct lore you can find in locations like King Crocaus's castle detailing the stories of his family tree and the glass window section of Flipside's main Co-founders/contributors. The rest of the lore practically comes exclusivley from Carson and is relativey... Easy to put together, so to speak.

I have no doubt that the writers wanted to tie in Dimentio with the Magician son part of the theory, as the term "magician" has been used to describe his character and I certainly agree that Merloo is connected to his character a least in some way as he also uses dimensional magic and has the key word "magician" to determine him and as there are no descendants of Merloo present, but that lack of really any noteworthy visual connection and the way the other lore is generally presented is one of the few reasons why I think him actually being Merloo might not have been the intention despite how good the theory is?

Apologies for the ask and I hope that you have a nice day!

Glad you asked, and happy to answer! This will be a very long one. So long in fact that it broke the character limit again, so it's Google Doc link time again. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eLguKB4Guepv55BkRF0i3U98_2ObJ3SVWAHETEDjptQ/edit Enjoy!

#super paper mario #mario lore #dimentio

8 notes · View notes

notapplicableinformation · 1 year ago

Text

Thank you for providing the Japanese transcript, I shall be sure to look at it when I find some time! I very much appreciate it!

Apologies for the oversight about the Flipside tower- I hadn't considered Garson's information- I appreciate that. Though I'm still a bit confused as to whether or not Garson is specifically referring to the doors traversed in the game or if it would be possible to enter other worlds from the tower, with the English transcript, however going over the Japanese transcript you provided does make more sense to me. The "dimensional energy" concept is.....a bit odd though, but I'll not ponder too long on it for now-

Fair enough on the Tippi point- She seemed to have the ability to transport Mario places outside of the beginning cutscene anyway, like in Ch4 when you go to space I think she brings you back to Flipside- so I suppose it makes sense. (It does make me ponder the purpose of the return pipe if Tippi can just warp you to places, but I digress-)

I saw your response to an ask I did on the Merloo/Dimentio theory and I'll find some time to properly answer it with some more queries. :)

I do wish some of the loose ends of the game were clearer to connect though, I feel that it would be really narratively satisfying to be able to link together. Mimi, O'Chunks and Nastasia, even though get context for their lore, to me, the lore seems a bit out of place as it doesn't formally connect to any other points or locations in the story. Bleck and Tippi connect very well to the story, and I appreciate your insight to affirm this and Dimentio fits well too, though even then, there is a lot of scattered evidence for his character which probably is the reason why there are a few different theories generally considered for his origin (I like the Merloo theory more than the descendant, as it seems satisfying, but at the same time, I have some more queries about it)

I appreciate your time on your response and shall be looking at the transcripts later on. Thank you kindly and have a nice day!

(I've provided a link to the post I mentioned previously, my apologies that I most likely am fixing on an irrelevant detail in that post)

The Villains' lore doesn't entirely fit?

Does anyone else think that the Villains in Super Paper Mario are great, but that their lore doesn't exactly.....Fit in the game too well?

Let me explain-

Count Bleck, even though there is foreshadowing and clear build up to his relationship with Timpani, I thought it was a bit odd that none of the dimensions that were visited wasn't, like, the remains of the dark tribe from when Blumiere had opened up the Dark Prognositcus. Or that there wasn't any location in the game visited that had Tippi recollect a memory of familiarity-

The other minions' lore doesn't really fit with any of the locations visited in the game either in my opinion- O'Chunks lore being an army general who was betrayed is very interesting for his character, but I wouldn't know if he were from any of the dimensions that we visit in the game as there isn't any link to any form of 'war', as an example, in any of the present locations in the game. He probably comes from a different dimension outside of the places we visit in the game, but that arises questions as to why Flipside has doors to only a few dimensions and what counts as a dimension and what counts as a world in the first place. This also makes me ask why the villains can't have come from the dimensions visited in this game to make the game feel that smaller bit more complete?

Mimi's story is also a bit odd, with that failed pixel experiment possibility or creation of a witch possibility. Neither of those are even alluded to in any place of the narrative, so... There's only Carson to go off. It would have been interesting to come across a potential place of a 'witch' so that what Carson is saying could have more merit, but it doesn't matter too much.

Dimentio makes sense to be entirely ambiguous, it's in character for him, but then you have all of the Pixl Uprising lore and the lore of the magician. It's....It's all great lore but it's so peculiar that there is NOTHING about this lore alluded to in ANY other place of the game other than Carson's bar- (To be fair though, if one went by the "Dimentio is Merloo" theory, or even if you went for the theory that he's one of the descendants, there's actually a bit of evidence for this outside of Carson's bar in the Gate between Flipside and Flopside where you can read that Merloo was a magician who could control dimensions, but I digress.)

Nastasia's lore is also strange. The 'Of bats and men' story- It's...Extremely random. It links well to when Nastasia says she'll stay by Bleck's side as he saved her, but the whole being a bat and becoming human is....strange, as it really feels like it came from nowhere.

To conclude, I love Super Paper Mario very much, though I feel that the villains stories aren't....Very well engraved into the plot, the stories seem like they were added in separately, very good stories, yes, but...Not really connected to any of the established locations. Carson is the main source of evidence to go by-

I may be missing something, but I thought it was a bit odd that the stories of the Villains weren't at least a little bit linked to any of the worlds visited- Maybe there are some links and I don't remember any, but this was just a meagre observation I had made.

Anyway, have a nice day! Apologies for the long discussion. I'd love to hear any thoughts on the subject matter.

#spm #super paper mario #mario lore

21 notes · View notes

notapplicableinformation · 1 year ago

Text

Ah! Thank you kindly for your response! I've read a few of your theories in the past and am happy to see your insight!

The point on Castle Bleck makes sense and is an interesting one, I like it. The point you make does clear up a lot as to what Castle Bleck actually IS. It's a bit of a shame though that the ties between the ancients and the castle are quite...Weak in the regional translations- (Where do you find the Japanese transcript of the game? There seems to be quite a few regional changes, aren't there-)

Fair enough with Tippi too, I just thought that maybe enforcing the ties a little further could have been interesting.

For O'Chunks I didn't particularly mean that there needed to be any said backstory, merely that some hint visually or one small line narratively could have provided perhaps a small bridge between him as a character and where he came from. None of the worlds have any characters that look remotely like him, which, no, it's not relevant at all, but would have been interesting I suppose.

Would it be possible to provide a point in the game where it is said that any world can be accessed on the Flipside Tower outside of the ones of the Pure Hearts? I suppose the start of the game when Tippi brings Mario to Flipside could be an example of this, but it seems....A bit weak of an example? Apologies for this.

I appreciate your research for the Mimi section and find the translation differences to be very interesting! It's a bit of a shame that the "witch" is a weak tie in for Mimi's character and that she is a bit convoluted-

I've read your Dimentio is Merloo theory and honestly, I think it's a very good one and is a very interesting approach. I like the prospect of the thematic tie in points against Count Bleck. There are a few queries I'd like to ask about that theory that make me question if that was intended or not by the writers, but I'd love to discuss that specific theory in more detail on another post if you'd be fine with that- The Lore Wiki page is really interesting and I'd love to discuss some of it. Well done!

With Nastiasia, fine, but in the confines of Super Paper Mario alone, is there much to actively back up her story given?

Thank you for the discussion, I appreciate it!

(I wrote a post not too long called "Count Bleck's Lie and its potential impact on the story" and I was wondering if you could provide some possible insight as...I probably missed something narratively but would love to hear about it. I'd love to brew up some more discussions! Thank you for your time and I hope that you have a good day!)

The Villains' lore doesn't entirely fit?

Does anyone else think that the Villains in Super Paper Mario are great, but that their lore doesn't exactly.....Fit in the game too well?

Let me explain-

Anyway, have a nice day! Apologies for the long discussion. I'd love to hear any thoughts on the subject matter.

#super paper mario #mario lore

21 notes · View notes