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[rraaarr]

Crowley misunderstood Nina and Maggie

Im sure this has been discussed, but I haven't seen it, though to be fair, I dropped off the site for a few months, but hey I'm back on my bullshit lol.

I think perhaps the open honesty and romanticism of Crowley's confession distracts us from the fact that Crowley doesnt actually take Nina and Maggies advice. Nina and Maggie's advice was to Talk, as in to discuss. And Crowley, honestly love them, but they didn't open with a Discussion. They opened with a Confession. They even say they should do all the talking.

And of course, Aziraphale makes the same mistake.

The thing is they Don't DISCUSS, Neither of them ever tries to, they're kind of like....pitching romantic ideas at each other as opposed to either of them doing anything that Maggie and Nina suggested (which Aziraphale didn't hear, but still)

Maggie and Nina suggested having a conversation to see where the other person is at. Like in their example conversation, Maggie and Nina discover that now is Not a good time for Nina to be in a relationship and that Nina can't expect Maggie to wait for her, but Maggie assures she will.

Thing is while the future for the couple of Maggie and Nina looks promising, They Don't End Up Together.

And Both Crowley and Aziraphale WANT to end up together, but they have No idea where the other one is at emotionally. They're making guesses based on the fact that they know each other so fantastically well. But Neither of them ever actually Even Tries to have a conversation to see what the other one wants from their relationship, what they want the future to look like what their concerns and hopes are. They just....sort of advertise a commercial of their own personal vision of a romantic future at each other and then they both go all Pikachu face and take it personally when the other doesn't accept.

(Obviously there are other aspects to the iverall analysis of this scene/their characters, I just wanted to point out this one aspect that has been on my mind for awhile)

[rraaarr]

Aziraphale, Crowley, The Cold War and Other Possible Lenses

First, I just want to say that there Is NO Wrong way to interpret literature and this post is not meant to invalidate anyone's interpretations. But I want to talk about the final 15 from a different perspective. Again, not saying other interpretations aren't there or valid or baked into the show, just that I want to see what we discover when we look through another lens. And the lens I wanna look through is what I personally think is the lens the Book was actually written through. Now, I know there are a lot of differences from book to tv (for example, how much Crowley is invested in duck health)

But in the book,it's relatively clear that one major interpretation is that it's an Allegory for The Cold War (Two sides that go to war and don't care about the casualties of who gets caught in the middle,as long as their side wins) The First thing when Armageddon goes down that both Azi and Crowley try to get out of trouble is they Both ask each other if they can defect to their side. It is important to note this is Not in the TV show, but I do believe (correct me if I'm wrong) it's in the script book. (The scene in the book takes place in The Bentley I believe)

This is important for Azi's ask at the end of S2. We Know that whatever the convo with Metatron was, Azi could tell Something was up. He doesn't know it's specifically the second coming, but he knows it's Something. Remember, at the end of S1, Crowley says they bought themselves breathing room for "the big one". And Azi is probably pretty sure that this project Metatron is talking about is exactly that. Keeping in mind the first move both Book Azi and Crowley make in the ApocaNot is to try and defect, it makes sense, from that lens, that Azi would Jump at the chance to offer Crowley the safety of defection. Keep in mind, In -The S1 scene at the Globe -The WWII magic show scene And -The Victorian Body snatcher scene Azi isn't worried for what Heaven will do to Crowley, but what Hell will. Afterall, it's Hell that collects or threatens to collect Crowley in the flashbacks, and it's Hell Azi is concerned will destroy Crowley "If hell finds out, they won't just be angry, they'll destroy you", Aziraphale says. He's worried about what Hell will do to Crowley, not Heaven. (well that and holy water)

So, given that background, it stands to reason that Azi feels he and Crowley are Safer with Heaven than Hell. Yes, Heaven tried to kill Azi, but that was once. Afterall, Hell doesn't write "rude notes".

And look, we don't know what exactly Azi goes through with Heaven,but a lot of Heaven's ab*se seems to happen from Azi's superiors, but if he's Surpreme Archangel, Azi will be the superior and in a high enough position to Protect Crowley, or at least I imagine that's Azi's rationale. So, again, it stands to reason that 1) Azi would assume they'd both be physically safer in Heaven and 2) That Crowley wouldn't take it personally,as, per the book, they've Asked to defect to Heaven before. Now, to be fair, this is Book Canon, not TV Show canon. So, let's discuss (briefly, because this could be another post) Aziraphale and Crowley's view of Angel/Demon as identity, or at least what AZI would know of it. Azi doesn't hear Crowley discuss being a demon very often other than to

1) tell Azi that they didn't mean to fall or some variation

or

2) Tell Azi that they're a demon, and, thus, they're not nice (an assertation that is usually, immediately, proven Wrong, ala the Job episode, but we see it elsewhere as well)

And, based on that, I also think another lens we can look at Azi's offer is one of a Restoration, The Righting of an Injustice. Hell and being a demon is an allegory for a kind of criminal punishment. Crowley was kicked out because he was "bad", this was unfair, and now, the error or the judgement is being recognized and fixed. This is obviously a VERY LOADED concept, but it is very possible Aziraphale views this offer as Righting a Wrong, Correcting an Injustice that was Done TO Crowley. I'm not saying these are definitive lenses to look through, just alternate ones that can help us understand what Azi is thinking when he offers Crowley to be an Angel.

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I think Aziraphale should at least get a little credit that the Only Line Crowley couldn't, and most ppl seem to agree(including me) Shouldn't have crossed to be with Aziraphale is the Same Line Aziraphale was Constantly risking by socializing/making heart eyes at/associating with Crowley for 6000 years

And I want to be clear, it seems pretty obvious that Crowley most likely suffered very real and terrible consequences from hell bc of his relationship with Aziraphale. We see a very concrete example with the Wee Morag and Elspeth situation (though we don't actually see what happens, but I feel that it's implied that it's very awful). And Crowley Should and often Does get credit for this. So, this isn't a "who risked more" post, because the Whole Point is that they both risked basically everything to just...hang out together. This is more about What Exactly Aziraphale Was risking in light of the S2 breakup scene, and that thing is Identity.

Because the S2 breakup scene, and really the audience's reaction to it, shows us that Aziraphale is out of pocket for offering Crowley to become an Angel because (whether or not Aziraphale realizes-I say not- but that's another post) it Fundamentally Changes Who Crowley IS. And this heavily suggests that Angel and Demon function as a kind of identity (as opposed to a job, which is, in my opinion, slightly more the book's take). And if we are looking at Demon and Angel as at least Some Kind of form of identity, then I think it is relevant to recognize that Aziraphale was Always risking his identity for the better part of 6000 years. {And It is very important to Also recognize that it is Crowley who spares him this in the Job episode (perhaps in a way Aziraphale Doesn't in the breakup scene. But here is where I would like to point out that Aziraphale was possibly Excited about being together as Angels with Crowley, but he never actually made that decision for her, as Aziraphale never actually made a decision at all. Crowley is possibly upset that Aziraphale didn't know them well enough to understand that Demon is a functionality of their identity and to say No Immediately.....and this is another post,lol)}

The worst that could happen to Aziraphale is Fall, to have his identity stripped from him. (which, arguably, Crowley did have their identity stripped from them when they fell, though Probably not because of Aziraphale-or who knows-,but I feel this really convolutes things, OR clarifies, because, I guess it makes a lot of sense if you view Angel as an identity that Crowley had stripped from him, then it would Make Sense that Aziraphale would Want to Restore that, but then it also means that Aziraphale is losing sight of the 6000 years of identity as Demon, so restoring would perhaps Erase those 6000 years, as opposed to what Aziraphale is possibly thinking, which is that he can give a piece of Crowley's identity Back to them, not really realizing that having that piece of identity Removed is Part of their identity now...and it gets complicated)

I just think that if in the Good Omens show universe, If Heaven and Hell are The Same (as the show frequently points out), and If Angel and Demon are viewed as forms of identity, then I don't think Aziraphale falling is any better than Crowley becoming an Angel. And I just think Aziraphale should get Some credit for risking his very identity this whole time.

[rraaarr]

Crowley and Aziraphale learned different lessons in S2

I think throughout the events of the season And what appears to be Aziraphale remembering with the minisodes, that where Crowley realizes that they're relatively Safe to be together (particularly after the convo with Nina, realizing how obvious they've been this whole time that Nina can see it!) Aziraphale realizes how much Danger they're in.

So Crowley's arc basically goes from We Are In Danger to We Might Be Able to Have This Actually and Aziraphale goes from We Are Safe and In Love Because We Fooled Heaven and Hell to Oh No We Are In Danger Actually

And I think this explains One of several reasons why they miscommunicate So Badly in the final scene is because while they've Always been able to talk through subtext at least a little, like with Job, but then again, they've always known the risks and were on the same page there at least.

[rraaarr]

I so agree with this. I think that it's also important to remember Aziraphale is acting as he believes Crowley would.

To Aziraphale, Crowley is cool and brave. Crowley wouldn't show an ounce of fear, they'd be suave and confident, Crowley Would put on a bit of a show.

And Aziraphale isn't one to go back and Talk about how he felt. We only know about Crowley's reaction as in depth as we do, not because they Talk about it with Aziraphale, but because the story confronts Crowley dead on with Gabriel. Crowley uses the description of events as a persuasion tactic with Aziraphale and then we see them spell it out for Jimbriel later. But it isn't like Aziraphale gets a chance to tell off Beelzebub

And as OP says, Aziraphale sweeps his feelings under the rug, he isn't about to Revisit anything unpleasant!

we talk a lot about how terrified and angry crowley was when heaven tried to execute aziraphale via hellfire and gabriel told him to shut his mouth and die already, and how aziraphale seemed to be having the time of his life in the holy water bathtub down in hell, asking for rubber ducks and making michael miracle him a towel. we know that crowley was traumatized by the whole appearance-swapping experience by how he reacts to gabriel in the bookshop. and while i wholeheartedly agree with everyone's thoughts about crowley, i'm wondering if we haven't gotten it a bit wrong on az's end. we know that aziraphale tends to shove things under the rug when he's nervous or afraid. he puts on a brave face and tries his best to soldier on through whatever difficulty he's facing (see the whole bit with the metatron at the end of S2). don't let them see your fear. but we also know (per neil) that when crowley's pupils go full yellow it's a sign of extreme stress. and throughout the bathtub scene, aziraphale-crowley's eyes are blown wide to yellow. i feel like aziraphale was much more terrified (for both himself and crowley) during this scene than he let on during his later recounting of the events to crowley in the park. just something to consider.

(the nose scrunch clearly says 'i'm fine, this is fine' to all but the most attuned observer)

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Been assuming that "Like Old Times but even nicer" referred to their time in Heaven...

But what if Aziraphale was literally just referring to their relationship on earth.

Like think about it, the last few years they've been essentially unemployed/retired, and Aziraphale (and Crowley to an extent!) really did like helping out the Humans. (so much so, they try to project onto a couple in order to help them)

And in several flashbacks we see Aziraphale and Crowley hanging out together and helping the humans (not so much in the Blitz one, but they did help out the woman who ran the Ladies of Camelot show) And in those flashbacks, they both, usually together, often make judgment calls about what Heaven and Hell should be doing (like with Job).

So Aziraphale could basically just be saying let's go do all the good stuff we used to do together on earth except this time, we can make those same decisions and judgment calls we've Been making for millennia BUT we won't have to worry about being caught or getting into trouble, we'll actually have to be listened to, we can still find time to socialize, and we'll be Safe.

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There's a line that I feel is important and doesn't get discussed very often

Crowley comments "I don't know how you lot have stayed in charge all these years"

To which Aziraphale responds "I don't think we have" I don't know why, but it feels important

[rraaarr]

I'm dead

I will never be over the fact that for all the confusion and fear and panic and anger that goes through Aziraphale's face in the seconds after the kiss, for all the repressed feelings and the idiocy of his 'I forgive you', when Crowley walks away from him for what he thinks could be the last time he stutters out the softest, most desperately pleading '...no...'

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One important aspect of Metatron's offer to Aziraphale is that I don't think he cares if Crowley becomes an Angel or no. Or maybe he does, msybe he knew Crowley would say no ,but I think speculation should at least account for the Possibility that both outcomes were favorable to Metatron.

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there relationship and love is So earthbound and I think they really need to understand that themselves.

Love how it was made clear that beelzebub and gabriel explicitly don’t want to “consume human food”, and while they like music and clothes, and their love for each other is real and deep- it’s also otherworldly. They are devoted to each other- but they are each others heaven and hell.

Whereas our friends Aziraphale and Crowley love: eating, sleeping, drinking, reading, film, driving, dancing- and also kissing. Their love is steeped in humanity. Because they aren’t each other’s heaven and hell, they said as much in S1. When they toasted to the world.

[rraaarr]

in the middle of working out the complexities of Aziraphales character like a normal person

and I'm currently trying to figure out what exactly it is that Aziraphale isn't confronting regarding Heaven. Is it just his optimism? Hope for change? I don't think it's even black and white thinking because I struggle to accept that an Angel that did a demon's temptations for Centuries is a black and white thinker. That's At Least a black, gray, and white thinker.

Is it a reflex? Is it that Aziraphale struggles with the idea that Angels and demons are just as capable of Choice as humans? Is it about Crowley and seeing Crowley's fall as a harmful act that demands repair?

Like what is it?

Aziraphale just doesn't say what he thinks, I feel, in the same way that Crowley does, and he can be a hard read sometimes. And I'm really just trying to figure that out.

[rraaarr]

I love how beautiful and succinct this is, don't sleep on ops tags

Aziraphale “I will bear the loss of the world’s delights to prevent it from being destroyed so that crowley can live freely in it” VERSUS Crowley “I will carve out a place for aziraphale in this universe and defend it with my life so that he will be safe” FIGHT!!!

[rraaarr]

I strongly disagree with the people saying that Aziraphale asking Crowley to come to heaven was choosing "angel Crowley" over "demon Crowley." Because to Aziraphale, there is no difference. He knows that Crowley has always been good, that he never truly deserved to be a demon. He believes that heaven made a mistake casting Crowley out in the first place. He wants to fix that mistake, to restore everything that Crowley lost and give him the stars again. He wants to make a difference: to make up for all of the mistakes that heaven has made, and turn it into somewhere that they can be together and happy and safe.

He really does need Crowley and he believes that this is how they can finally be an "us."

[rraaarr]

Crowley's 'i want you to be happy' means 'i want to get you away from the people who have hurt you' and Aziraphale's 'i want you to be happy' means 'i want to restore everything you've lost', and they both dont understand this isnt what will make the other happy

[rraaarr]

ya know Crowleys line "just to be able to ask" in the Job scene makes me think he never got to ask God anything

it makes me think he got to The Metatron, who then was like, "so there's this falling thing that's really en vogue rn,so we're gonna do that"

THAT'S why crowley Knows in S1 Aziraphale won't be able to talk to The Almighty. Bc Aziraphale won't even get that far.

Cause think about it, based on what we know, if Crowley fell for directly asking God questions or giving suggestions, and if they really thought Aziraphale would get through to God herself, he'd be way more worried about Aziraphale making suggestions to the Almighty

But honestly? Crowley doesnt seem that worried about Aziraphale calling God, just really anxious that it wont work and Aziraphale wont be With Crowley when the world ends and theyll get separated. They know Aziraphale will get through to the Metatron bc God Doesn't Take Questions.

And I think, as anaylzed by ppl better than me, again with the fire, Crowley can't tell if it was Heaven or Hell. Because he Knows 2 things at that point 1) aziraphale tried to ask God a question and 2) Hastur has actively threatened Aziraphale.

And that's the whole you bastards, all of you. Bc it could've been Hastur, but it could've been Metatron.

[rraaarr]

I've seen so many predictions for the Ineffable Reunion in season 3 and I have to say I believe them all.

[rraaarr]

Hmm, wonder if they’ll hide the Book of Life in Aziraphale’s bookshop.