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Dany: *breathes*

Dark!Dany "theories": I honestly don't know how there's any question of Dany turning evil when we have such obvious foreshadowing like this in the books. In the first place, this is not just Dany exhaling...it is a violent expulsion of air from her body. It's a sigh, a sign of impatience which shows that Dany becomes frustrated and restless very easily. Not only that, the presence of oxygen strengthens a fire and can lead to a sudden explosion; when Dany gets impatient, intentional or not, her first instinct is to add "fuel to the fire". And finally, air is the very essence of life. She expels "life" from her body, rather violently at that, the moment she becomes impatient and unconsciously begins to turn to fire...do I really need to say more? It's so obvious that Mad Queen!Dany is being built up, George isn't even trying to be subtle lol

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Book Jeyne Arryn, fresh from the latest attempt by male relatives to usurp her: "She remains our rightful queen, and mine own blood besides, an Arryn on her mother's side. In this world of men, we women must band together. The Vale and its knights shall stand with her".

vs

Show Jeyne Arryn: I don't have time to consider familial ties, solidarity from shared experiences or the wider ramifications for female succession, where the fuck is my dragon?

Rhaena: Should have read the fine print bitch.

Tyraxes: I was bigger in the book 🙁

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is it just me or do people really celebrate Rhaenyra’s death more than they ever did Tywin’s for example? Like sometimes I really think some of them are red flags irl cheering for a woman’s death because they are psycho and I feel sick in my stomach…

they're gonna call u crazy for this one but i agree !!

because the way they brag about rhaenyra's death scene, specifically the fact that aegon killed her is kinda unnerving. especially knowing that, obviously, the greens were motivated by misogynistic ideas. it was really cruel, ironic that they call rhaenyra "rhaenyra the cruel".

and i just know her death isn't gonna be handled well at all in the show, leaving so much room for tg stans to be tone deaf as always. those same exact people who were screaming "saying jaehaerys deserved to die is wrong!" yeah, they're gonna be the ones relentlessly mocking rhaenyra when she dies in the show. just like how it's apparently okay for them to cheer for the suffering of rhaenyra's innocent children, but as soon as we say anything about how alicent had it coming and pretty much created her own downfall (along with the death & suffering of many others) we're wrong and hate women.

team green? more like team hypocrisy 😭 i hope helaena does a flip when she jumps out of that window istg

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It seems that I am immune to Dark Dany Stans, none of the arguments they have presented in this app have convinced me at all

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I feel like it needs to be said very early because I can already hear the shit heats in this fandom saying "haha Jacaerys is stupid af he deserved to die for flying low its his own fault he died!"

Jacaerys flies low because he is trying to find Viserys. His brother, who is a child and dragonless, is lost in the chaos, and Jacaerys dies trying to save him.

Now, I'm sure the writers are gonna fuck it up. I can feel it in my bones. But I need everyone to can the Jacaerys slander.

He dies trying to save his baby brother. Put respect on my boys name.

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Rhaenyra is the legitimate heir in a feudal monarchy

My history classes are finally useful lol. Anyway, this is kinda short, simplified and with wikipedia as my main source because honestly I don't feel like getting into a full argument about it as it is just a fictional world and all. But I needed to write this because there is a misunderstanding about how feudal monarchy works (although technically there are some major differences between Westeros and medieval Europe tbh). Also my english kinda sucks sorry.

To be simple: oaths are very VERY important in a feudal monarchy. We see the apparition of feudal monarchies around the 9th century after a few kingdoms' territorial expansions in Europe. The main issue of such large territory is that it required soldiers everywhere to protect it, and these soldiers needed a "leader" to defend the territories the king couldn't protect himself, someone to make sure the new conquered territories would stay under the king's rule. However, to make sure these new "leaders" would stay loyal to the king, they had to pledge an oath to him, thus becoming his vassals. Later, these vassals will themselves have vassals under them that have to swear oaths to them as well. The whole feudal hierarchy mainly existed through oaths as it is based on that the king could give his vassals lands, territories and castles (ect...) to protect.

"The obligations and corresponding rights between lord and vassal concerning the fief form the basis of the feudal relationship.[1]" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism)

"Before a lord could grant land (a fief) to someone, he had to make that person a vassal. This was done at a formal and symbolic ceremony called a commendation ceremony, which was composed of the two-part act of homage and oath of fealty. During homage, the lord and vassal entered into a contract in which the vassal promised to fight for the lord at his command, whilst the lord agreed to protect the vassal from external forces. Fealty comes from the Latin fidelitas and denotes the fidelity owed by a vassal to his feudal lord. "Fealty" also refers to an oath that more explicitly reinforces the commitments of the vassal made during homage; such an oath follows homage.[35] Once the commendation ceremony was complete, the lord and vassal were in a feudal relationship with agreed obligations to one another. The vassal's principal obligation to the lord was to provide aid or military service." (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism#:~:text=Classic%20feudalism,-See%20also%3A%20Feudalism&text=In%20broad%20terms%20a%20lord,of%20service%20to%20the%20lord.)

"It was sworn between two people, the feudal subject or liegeman (vassal) and his feudal superior (liege lord). The oath of allegiance was usually carried out as part of a traditional ceremony in which the liegeman or vassal gave his lord a pledge of loyalty and acceptance of the consequences of a breach of trust. In return, the liege lord promised to protect and remain loyal to his vassal." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fealty)

In the United Kingdoms:

"The oath also specifies that this same oath to the king, is equally sworn to his "heirs and successors", in the plural, rather than a single heir and successor (...) in the event that any one of them should accede to the throne. Thus, the pledge of loyalty to the Crown made in the oath does not end at the death of the current monarch. (...) The oath of allegiance was performed to King Edgar (c. 944–8 July 975).[4] The oath was certainly in use as of the date of John, King of England's Magna Carta, signed on 15 June 1215." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Allegiance_(United_Kingdom))

In a Fire and Blood:

"Disregarding the precedents set by King Jaehaerys in 92 and the Great Council in 101, Viserys declared his daughter, Rhaenyra, to be his rightful heir, and named her Princess of Dragonstone. In a lavish ceremony at King’s Landing, hundreds of lords did obeisance to the Realm’s Delight as she sat at her father’s feet at the base of the Iron Throne, swearing to honor and defend her right of succession." (page 393).

"The ancient master of coin, who had served King Viserys for the majority of his reign, and his grandfather, Jaehaerys the Old King, before him, reminded the council that Rhaenyra was older than her brothers and had more Targaryen blood, that the late king had chosen her as his successor, that he had repeatedly refused to alter the succession despite the pleadings of Queen Alicent and her greens, that hundreds of lords and landed knights had done obeisance to the princess in 105 AC, and sworn solemn oaths to defend her rights." (page 430).

These are the same kind of vows the Kingsguard swear:

"Then as now, the Sworn Brotherhood of the Kingsguard consisted of seven knights, men of proven loyalty and undoubted prowess who had taken solemn oaths to devote their lives to defending the king’s person and kin." (page 428).

The "solemn oaths" term is used in both cases for Rhaenyra's inheritance and Kingsguard's vows, which is very interesting.

Anyway, it is mentioned two times the lords and landed knights swore an oath to her. From a feudal perspective, Rhaenyra is a legitimate heir. For people who want to say "oh but Tyland said he had swore no such oaths!" 1) oaths like that are supposed to be on behalf of your house and doesn’t cease to exist if your king dies, 2) technically Tyland is only the brother of the Lord of Casterly Rock anyway so it makes sense it’s not up to him to swear the oath in a feudal monarchy, though it still applies to him.

Anyway, in a feudal monarchy the king is powerful but he doesn't even have all powers… so he does need the vassals' approval. In Fire and Blood, all the lords who are vassals to the king Viserys I swore an oath to Rhaenyra and recognised her as heir. She is legitimate.

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I’ve noticed that a lot of green supporters are Targaryen haters but for some reason that hate doesn’t extend to Aegon, Aemond, Helaena, then they get mad when you call them Targtowers, they call the Targaryens “Nazis” and “blood purists” but they also hate Rhaenyra’s eldest sons because they don’t have the “features” of a “true Targaryen”.  Call the Targaryens “inbred freaks” but forget Aegon II MARRIED HIS SISTER AND HAD CHILDREN WITH HER. Hating House Targaryen, but supporting the WORST they had to offer is just hilarious. These people are so contrarian I don’t think they even know what is it exactly that they support, besides misogyny.

Yeah, basically misogyny. It's not surprising, given that the Targaryen hate is mostly Dany hate which is misogyny. I don't think they associate the Greens with Dany, mostly because she doesn't descend from them. And it's also because Alicent and Viserys are not related, so they see the Greens as less Targaryen for the wrong reasons.

Targaryen/Dany haters, Green stans are pretty much Westerosi status quo stans.

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nothings ever that serious, dont waste your energy. Have a good day

OHHH you are so kind! Have a good day you too anon <3

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One question, why Dany fans are against her and Euron being together? People say he is a misogynist and evil but it's not like the ones they ship her with are champions of good morals, same goes for the people around her. He is a king chosen by his people ,has a large fleet and a potential dragon rider . He even captured the warlocks who were after her. Not to mention he is handsome and totally her type personality wise (Daario but more dangerous). Who are the other candidates? Faegon the pretender, Sweet Robin the sickly and somehow one BASTARD when it doesn't make any sense even if her brother was his sperm donor.

Short Answer -> Because Euron Greyjoy is the antithesis of Dany in every way and will try to depower or debase her in any way he can. And that's not Dany's arc nor is it logical, narratively, with the direction Dany's arc has gone. This would never be a happy or constructive union.

He would never be satisfied with a a spouse--and female spouse, as if there would be any other kind in his hypothetical case--having the power of a true monarch or leader that he has enjoyed his entire life. A spouse that the armies, subjects, etc. are paying the obeisances that they would to Jaehaerys, Viserys, Aegon I, etc. One who is not merely a consort but has the authority, power, higher status, etc. of a Queen regnant and an ordinary king. While Dany is raised to goddess-like status among some of her people not because she thinks herself in that vein and thinks it her due to be their queen, Euron plainly is in the process of thinking himself as godlike and deserving of higher and the highest as possible seats of power no matter how he will get to that but in underhanded and sinister ways of persuading people that he'd be in some type of service to them or really that he'd be their way to gain power for themselves, esp how he frames himself as the way for the ironborn to conquer Westeros by invoking their heritage. And he ends up being the one to become their king. That's really his only aim--how to use people and persuade them to give him power so that he may rise to that position. that's why his never taking anything in those raids he has with his crew is also sinister--it works to inspire more loyalty from them.

Dany constantly interrogates whether or not she is doing what is best for those under her care, she feels a sense of responsibility to her people and those she observes she can protect. Power is not a luxury or a right in of itself to her; it is an inevitable tool for any possible happiness or peace.

In the leaked Winds of Winter "The Forsaken" chapter, we see that he ties a tongueless, naked, pregnant Falia Flowers--his "bedmate" from when he took the Hewetts' castle (A Feast for Crows)--to his ship. The same girl in the TWoW chapter says to Aeron that Daenerys will be Euron's "rock wife" (the ironborn's terms for their main consort) and she'll be his "salt wife" (a sort of concubine, slave wife). Daenerys is not be anyone's consort of any kind for her to be safe and able to actually exercise the power that she needs to enact great social and magical change, as Fire and Blood has shown us time and time again. We didn't even really need F&B (if we were thinking persons) to know this because Drogo would have never allowed Dany to do the stuff she'd currently doing or be at her side while she makes decisions for those she takes on as her people...they'd and she'd be "his". But F&B is great to introduce us to other characters and to reemphasize Dany's importance AND understand histiography, misogyny, and propaganda.

Back to Euron, those people that he captures, he's not doing that with the intention of being her consort, but just to bring her to feeling of comfort so she'd be open to having him later on and get him into that space where he'd do whatever he thinks of doing. Just as he's doing with Aeron and the ironborn and Falia Flowers and his own crew.

And there is reason to believe that he SA'd his brother, Aeron (Damphair) when they were children [the 3rd quote down]. Aeron is deathly afraid of Euron and most people who aren't in his crew dislike, are wary of, or are also afraid of him for good reason.

Godless? Why, Aeron, I am the godliest man ever to raise sail! You serve one god, Damphair, but I have served ten thousand. From Ib to Asshai, when men see my sails, they pray. (A Feast for Crows, The Iron Captain.) We are the ironborn, and once we were conquerors. Our writ ran everywhere the sound of the waves was heard. My brother would have you be content with the cold and dismal north, my niece with even less ... but I shall give you Lannisport. Highgarden. The Arbor. Oldtown. The riverlands and the Reach, the kingswood and the rainwood, Dorne and the marches, the Mountains of the Moon and the Vale of Arryn, Tarth and the Stepstones. I say we take it all! I say, we take Westeros. (A Feast for Crows, The Drowned Man.) That man is dead. Aeron had drowned and been reborn from the sea, the god's own prophet. No mortal man could frighten him, no more than the darkness could . . . nor memories, the bones of the soul. The sound of a door opening, the scream of a rusted iron hinge. Euron has come again. It did not matter. He was the Damphair priest, beloved of the god. (A Feast for Crows, The Prophet) Kneel, brother. I am your king. I am your god. Worship me, and I will raise you up to be my priest. (The Winds of Winter [not released yet, leaked], The Forsaken)

Gods don't answer to "mere" men, much less women. As her consort, Euron would have to "answer" to her.

Then there is the dragon horn he says he got from Valyrian ruins. Mind you, dragon horns--"hellhorns" as the Valyrians called them--are thought to have been used by the Valyrians alongside spells to control dragons by "binding" them to a person. Daenerys is the one who supplies us--in the main series, in A Dance with Dragons--with this information.

The text shows that Euron is one of the worst possible candidates as a consort for Daenerys or any female monarch--much a less a dragonriding woman who hasn't reawakened dragons and magic into the world. Every thing shows that this man will use magic horrendously and oppressively to not just those close to him but wide swaths of people. Unlike Daario, he actually presents a some sort of threat to her ideologically and numbers wise. He, of most men aside from maybe Jon, has a stronger narrative relationship and familiarity with magic and has magical secrets that may contend with Dany's. It's all so ominous and foreshadowy.

As for other candidates, people have brought up Aurane Waters, some in her khalasar, Jon Snow--if he/they manage to have his influence over others undermined or he announces/swears himself to Daenerys, so people do not look at him as a viable monarch over her. Euron, again, would never allow himself to be a mere consort. And Dany can never be a consort to anyone for her story to make sense. A story of a woman, not a man, being the "messiah" figure by crushing gender roles and tropes or subverting them under her pretty little feet.

Euron is a classic case of the a smart and devious "psychopath" always looking for power and charming people to think him less of a threat than he actually is.

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If this was a normal fandom, Daenerys using what little power she has to defy her owner and his men and explicitly go against their political economy in a way perhaps no one ever has, much less a woman (even a khaleesi), would be seen as an objectively brave and compassionate moment. But because the entire ethos of this fanbase, in every nook and cranny, every niche and subgroup, is Daenerys hatred, then something that would be seen as kind and good if done by anyone else, is twisted into something monstrous.

Any other fandom wouldn’t think Daenerys deserved to have her child ripped from her womb just for trying to help a woman and naively believing the woman would’ve wanted to help her. Hell, if it was any other character from ASOIAF in that situation, people would’ve hated Mirri. And we know this because no one says that Lysa was justified in trying to kill Sansa despite the Tullys forcing Lysa to marry a pedophile, or Theon was justified in conquering Winterfell despite Ned sacking his city, enabling mass rapes of women in it, and taking him away from his mother. Hell, Daenerys haters even claim the children of slave masters in Astapor don’t deserve to be punished for their fathers’ sins.

Yes, you make excellent points of comparison, anon. Lysa Tully and the constant refrain of slavers (the class itself) being immune to accountability and justice that they'd inflict on other, less exploitative and abusive parties (or arguably so) if they had been them.

Must go to work soon, so response will be short. In some ways, this is a normal fandom bc fandoms are usually, to my knowledge rife with misogyny and racism. But this fandom is unique (to my knowledge and experience) in that the misogyny has gone to the extent to overtake many people very ability to even read text properly as to miss the actual and apparent conveyance of character scene. Precisely bc Dany is a prominent character who provides a POV, didn't die when she was "supposed to", and is a woman who fills up the position of exiled hero that traditionally men filled in fantasy fiction. And people have lost their minds ever since she survived but Ned didn't, so to say.

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The crazy thing for me has been people literally behaving like they are Westerosi peasants or something. And to make it worse, they think the Faith of the Seven is something GRRM has written to be the “right” religion as opposed to just the dominant one.

It’s been nuts to see people gleefully call Rhaenyra a “whore” and her sons “bastards” as if it’s actually something real to be condemned. If anything, GRRM writes and shows how awfully and unfairly someone labeled as a bastard can and will be treated in Westeros.

This is why I no longer take it seriously when people complain Fire & Blood has cartoonishly villainous takes on Greens’ attitudes towards Rhaenyra or her Velaryons sons. It’s not cartoonish when so many people talk exactly like that in 2025, unironically.

I fear we may only see an escalation with future seasons if Rhaenyra goes down a dark path. A fictional, fantasy story bringing out the worst in people.

A lot of people have developed their value system on the conformist, "might=right" of things bc of racism, sexism, and consumerist neo-capitalism. We know this, but some of us truly have not broken down or contemplated how consumerism, etc. has made them so unempathetic and incapable/unwilling to have more holistic views of power realtions and social constructs or the flexibility of elite interests when it suits them.

Even down to how people try to use unsubtle displays of brands in their presentations. and somehow just havin those brands mean "beauty" or you have a beautifully or skillfully designed item (art), which then gets conflated with "art" far past the point when the brand has actually made artistic creations and began to rely more on the name/brand. Why the hell do I care about a tiny-assed LV bag when i can get a huge bag to hold all the stuff i might need? Or I Because it's about displaying the material advantages I have over others and that i "succeeded' in the "hustle" of the game. Because it's proof I'm not where the "poor people' are. (When you factor in how brown or Black people interact w/capitalism, it's a different thing and I won't get into it bc it's complicated and not really always a mark against Black or brown people, esp Black people.)

Despite the fact that i truly believe that it's practically better for a woman to marry a man either as soon as possible if there's a baby born OR before kids (finances, marriage legal rights in medicine, alimony/maintenance, estates, common property, and inheritances), I also think people can and do put too much moral stake in how a woman's "worth" is.

I don't think, for the modern digital age and context esp, marriage should ever be considered a "final boss" or a definer of how we regard a woman's wort as a "human" or evaluate how much support we give her when we're rapidly approaching a condition where only women who changed their last names to their husband's can vote in the U.S. (only a few steps away from women not being able to vote at all if they are not married with no chace to divorce no-fault and thus be stuck in potentially lethal marriages, for them and their kids...it's a process people they will never just stop at last names....thus overturning the claims of how "smart" it is to need to get married bc then marriage still presents a great risk to women and kids bc it's basically a return to pre-modern patriarchy).

Why does this matter? Because i think SOME pro-marrriage people assess marriage as more a thing that places people in the "correct" gender roles rather than simply a means to an end of safety and financial security. And bc of that, they don't care about Rhaenyra's actual needs or to assess what her marriage to Laenor entails for her political prospects, esp when they simply don't think she's entitled or deserves what a "manly' man is entitled to. They don't see or care to see how Rhaenyra's 1st marriage EQUALLY disadvantaged and advantaged her politically bc she/women are not their priority in the first place. Thereby arguing with them for too long is useless. I decided to just copy-paste past arguments and highlight their sexism in two paragraphs or less, but I am also not very concise so that doesn't work out for me sometimes 😅.

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“Team Smallfolk” people are the embodiment of white men/male leftists who scream “first world problems!” whenever a woman complains about misogyny.

“Oh, so you’re questioning injustices and contradictions within an unjust system that affect you ? Well what about all these other injustices! Your complaint is therefore invalid because the only two correct options are either to endorse the system entirely, or replace it overnight. Also, I am never again going to suggest abolishing the system, I hate Daenerys, and my favourite characters are a rapist and a medieval school shooter.”

These people only care about the smallfolk when the war in question only happened because some people couldn’t accept a woman on the throne. I don’t see these people worrying about the smallfolk when discussing the War of the Five Kings, the Blackfyre Rebellions, or literally any other war in the ASOIAF universe. Btw, it’s funny to see the Team Smallfolk acting like the Northern independence is some noble and anti colonial cause when the initial premise is “we need to be independent because Ned was beheaded”. That’s not a cause that has anything to do with the rights of civilians, serfs, or smallfolk, like Robert’s Rebellion, it’s nobility and wealthy landowners fighting amongst themselves for power.

I do think the story is definitely saying that the smallfolk suffer because of the wars the royalty/nobility have, but it’s also saying that misogyny is awful, and disregarding that very important message of the story is incorrect. Both things can be true at once. Yes, the Dance of the Dragons was devastating to the smallfolk but what caused that war in the first place was misogyny.

I don’t see the Team Smallfolk people caring about the smallfolk in all the other wars that occurred in the story. I just see it as them using their supposed care for the smallfolk as a way to hide their misogyny. Now that one of the contenders for the throne is a woman suddenly the story is just “royalty/nobles are all bad, you shouldn’t rooting for any of them, you should care for the smallfolk only.” That attitude was nowhere to be seen in wars where all the contenders for the throne were men.

Agreed. I don't know what political affiliation these people majorly claim, so I can't speak to that, but I agree with the observation of enough Dance "neutrals" trying to say "think of the small folk!" to diminish the scope of trauma and self-destruction (personal and throughout the realm) that led up to the Dance was caused by...basically sexism and consolidating control through the exclusion/abuse of women's bodies. Especially when we see and note that the House of Targaryen has been it's most powerful or became such when they had dragons AND when those dragons were gone/diminutive right after the last dragonrider (Rhaena) died. When women simply held much less public and unimpeded political power than before and were pushed to the side in terms of succession and voice (or the attempt).

The sexism in this fandom is so deep people can't screw their eyeballs in the right place. It's not that no one is not thinking of the small folk (and I mean the readers, the nobles certainly aren't or aren't enough) but that there is a discrepancy revealing a discrimination and disdain for a female ruler, full stop.

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Daenerys being able to piece together clues from her dragon dreams, ancestors, and R’hllor, without the assistance of any maester, scroll, family lore, or mage giving her instructions, the way the men in her family needed them, is the truly underrated part of her AGOT arc.

She could command Valyrian mysticism and derive esoteric knowledge from her dreams and experiences and the scattered stories she heard, without needing tomes of knowledge and mentors to guide her. Of course when she does actually get mentors, like Quaithe and Marwyn, it’ll only help her level up her magic. But what’s interesting is that even the advice Quaithe gives her is very ambiguous and not easy for her to parse. No one is giving her a guidebook.

Dany is very smart, smarter than most of the other characters (she is up there with Tyrion) but people don't give her any credit for it and act like everything she has was handed to her.

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"Dany stans are crazy!" people being awfully silent when this kind of stuff happens.

Hope there wives see this 😊 this is your average male asoiaf stan being completely normal and intelligent talking about wanting to abuse and hit his wife cuz she likes dany. But sure we dany stans are overdramatic when we have the same hate and energy for them. Such a normal conversation over a fictional teengirl. Asoiaf male readers are the lowest of the low scum. Cant imagine how it feels having your work have such ugly pathetic demographic reading it. Pls I don't want u losers ever trying to convince me that dany stans are bad and shitty and asoiaf fandom is full of toxic feminists when this is your average grown ass man In this fandom. I wish the worst to happen on these men.

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Asoiaf fandom filled with annoying fuckasses who cant stand that the hero of these books is a teenage girl and make it everyone else's problem." She is too violent for ending slavery" funny how so many bitches have nothing to say about the unnecessary violence of there fav men.

A lot of u mfers want to pretend she is worse than who she truly is cuz your illiterate ass can't read the books without losing your shit over a female character being so important and I genuinely wish u eat a bag of dicks for that

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Of course I just saw an anti-Dany blog being a Lys enjoyer, because of course an anti-Dany would enjoy an island based on sex slavery.

Lys has to be a nightmare for multiple slaves who are constantly raped but it is praised because "ooooh it's pretty and has pretty people!!" but apparently "the Dany stans are the ones falling for "pretty girl actually does horrible thing" trap"!!! Can't you see the irony?

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Whenever things like that happen, I remember when a fan told GRRM on his blog they hated Dany and wanted her to die, and he answered "tsk tsk tsk".

Ugh… what’s with all the fucking Dany hate. First that disgusting video by those freaks about “mentally ill women loving Dany” and now articles like this?