starcat1701

[starcat1701]

OK, but the end credits scene of Thunderbolts took place 14 months after they were announced as the New Avengers - and Bucky was talking about Sam being angry at him.

Meaning Sam had been angry at Bucky and distancing himself from him for over a freakin’ year.

And besides the Thunderbolts, Sam was the only other friend Bucky had.

He was his closest and his best friend (and husband cuz come on - ) after Steve died.

And he had basically cut ties with Bucky because of the New Avengers thing.

Can you imagine how lonely Bucky must’ve felt without him??? Like yes, he has the Thunderbolts…but they’re not Sam Wilson.

Bucky and his new team were moved into the tower as a way of giving them all a home, but really - it just took Bucky away from his.

Because his home hadn’t been a place, it had been a person. Bucky’s home had been Sam.

[starcat1701]

The Bucky We See in Thunderbolts is a Skrull

I feel like my continued enjoyment of Bucky as a character is going to have to rely on the interpretation that he’s just been replaced by a Skrull in Thunderbolts. I believe it's a perfectly reasonable way to interpret such a consistent, long-standing character being so completely out of character for an entire movie. It also has the side benefit of giving the same level of disrespect to the work of a writer who clearly did not respect Bucky’s character *at all* and clearly just included him to get his fans to watch the movie (which also clearly didn’t work because the movie bombed)! So while I am perfectly aware that this interpretation wasn’t intended by anyone involved in the movie, I don’t really care because their intent for the story was terrible. So here are my theory-crafting thoughts on why I think Skrull!Bucky is a reasonable interpretation.

Why’s his hair so bad?

Seriously, Bucky’s hair looked better when he was imprisoned by Hydra for decades. His hair looked better when he was on the run for two years in Europe, and when he was blipped back into existence in order to fight Thanos’s army. And during that time, he never made a facial hair decision as bad as the goatee we see in Thunderbolts. Not when he ghosted Sam for 6 months, not during his time in Wakanda, never. He is not the kind of man who would choose to cultivate such a bad look. A Skrull however? They don’t even have hair! They can’t grow a beard in the first place to mess it up properly! A Skrull imitating Bucky would have no insight into Bucky’s hair care decisions, and that’s why it shows for this movie.

 Why isn’t he talking about Sam?

Val talks about the finale of Captain America: Brave New World without mentioning Sam at all. Now, from Val’s end this makes sense - she’s a villain who wants to control the superhero narrative. Sam’s involvement goes against her case completely, so it makes sense she wouldn’t mention him. But Bucky? He has an established interest in taking down Val, and he is absolutely devoted to Sam (which was established once again in Brave New World). Why wouldn’t he bring him up? When Bucky’s working alongside John Walker of all people, probably his least favorite person in the universe, why isn’t he mentioning Sam? Surely the *real* Bucky would delight in taking the opportunity to rub Sam’s success in Walker’s face at every opportunity! But Skrull!Bucky would have plenty of reasons to not mention Sam. First off, while the real Bucky is in love with Sam, the Skrull imitating him is not, so Sam isn’t on this imposter’s mind 24/7 like he is for Bucky. Secondly, for this theory to work I believe that the Skrull is there to work with Val and her plans. So calling her out regarding Sam would be counterproductive, and so would antagonizing Walker. 

 Why would he work for Val?

Arguably the worst and most out of character parts of this movie is the end, where Bucky, along with all the other Thunderbolts, let Val announce at a press conference that they are all the New Avengers. Gross! Awful! Stupid! Plenty of other people have written about why that’s a terrible conclusion, mostly because it makes no sense for any of these people to work with Val since she’s such an obvious villain, who they all witnessed torture Bob. Bucky choosing to not say anything and go along with her plans is the most galling given what he’s experienced with HYDRA and his relationship with Sam. But! A Skrull imitating Bucky, who is working alongside Val, would have every reason to bolster his partner in crime’s desperate and stupid last minute save. And it makes sense that the rest of these idiots would follow Skrull!Bucky’s lead and go along with it. Yelena can tell Val that “we own you now” but that’s completely meaningless. The villainous duo got away with everything. Now as to why Skrull!Bucky would work against Val’s initial plan to just kill the Thunderbolts in the trap she started with, I’d like to think that this is kind of a belligerent alliance. Skrull!Bucky might have his own intentions with his new gaggle of assholes, and there can be this behind the scenes push and pull where Skrull!Bucky and Val try to get one over on each other while still working towards the same goal. What is that goal you ask? Wow, thanks for asking!

 Whatever happened with Secret Invasion?

Remember when the Secret Invasion show came out and it was the worst thing the MCU ever made? Except now I guess it's joined by Thunderbolts and like half of the What If? Episodes. And it seems like its sheer awfulness got it sort of erased from the canon moving forward. I mean, the show ends with a sudden escalation of global conflict where humans and Skrulls are killing each other, the US president declares war on all aliens (like including the Asgardians?!) and there is no followup in any MCU project. The plot of The Marvels completely ignores Secret Invasion, there is no consequence whatsoever. The conclusion among most fans is that there was never any Secret Invasion show, and it seems that all the creative teams also agree. I’ve just concluded that Secret Invasion was an extended, live action What If? episode. All of this is disappointing, but for the sake of this theory, it’s very useful.

Because now the Skrull!Bucky theory can expand to being a redo of Secret Invasion. Secreter Invasion, let’s say. It's so secret that it didn’t even get made into a show or movie or anything. And this means that I can include elements to a Secret Invasion plot that I really thought they were building up to before the original show came out. And I was really expecting Val to be a big part of that story. In Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Val recruits John Walker at the end of the show, giving him a new suit and a new title - US Agent. She introduces this change by telling John that things are really going to hit the fan, and when that happens they’ll need him. I don’t know about other people, but my friends and I really thought that was referencing a Skrull plotline. Because what else would Val have been planning? 

The only other big plan we see is when she shows up in Wakanda Forever, where she’s doing pretty typical CIA stuff by trying to overthrow a sovereign African nation to steal its resources for the USA. But that wasn’t supposed to be an event where stuff “hit the fan”, that was just Tuesday for the head of the CIA. And while things do hit the fan in Thunderbolts, that wasn’t any calculated plan on Val’s part. Sentry turning into the void was not at all what she intended. But something like a Skrull takeover would definitely be the kind of thing Val would need to prepare for well ahead of time by collecting loyal agents. And, tying into Wakanda Forever again, Val would probably have a serious interest in stealing Vibranium if she has an even grander world takeover via Skrull plans.

 Why does Bucky’s arm work like that?

Ok now this one is going to be an *extreme* stretch, but I think it ties a lot of things together so I’m just going for it at this point. In Thunderbolts, we see Bucky’s arm get removed twice. First, he’s washing it in the dishwasher, next it's being ripped off by Sentry. In both of these cases, I don’t think it follows the internal logic regarding Bucky’s prosthetic arm that has been established earlier. Take the dishwasher scene. First of all, I’m being extra harsh because I think that scene was terrible and unfunny. But from a theorycrafting angle, I also think it goes against how his prosthesis has been treated in the past. I know that *in real life*prosthetic limbs need to be removed often, both for comfort and cleaning. But I’d argue that Bucky’s prosthesis exists mostly as a fantasy rather than accurate representation. We’ve seen that Bucky sleeps with his arm on and cleans it while still attached to him. In fact, as I’ll get into later, I don’t think Bucky makes a habit of removing his arm at all. 

When Ayo (perfectly justifiably) removes Bucky’s arm during their fight in Falcon and the Winter Soldier, he’s shocked to see that’s even possible. Sam even asks if he knew she could do that, to which Bucky says no. I interpret that scene less as the realization that *Ayo* can remove his arm, and more that his arm can be removed at all. That’s because Bucky’s HYDRA arm wasn’t at all removable. And while he didn’t have a prosthetic arm during most of his time in Wakanda, when he was given one by T'challa I don’t think he considered the mechanics of taking it off once it got put on. This might be a niche opinion I hold but I swear it connects some dots!

The second time Bucky gets his arm removed in Thunderbolts, its when Sentry rips it off (which has not led to any outcry online despite it being *way worse* than what Ayo did. Crazy how that works!). Again, if this happened in a movie that was good and didn’t destroy Bucky’s character, I would have looked it over, but since I’m not doing that here we go. I don’t think Bucky’s arm can just be yanked off by brute force like that for a variety of reasons that I think Shuri would have considered in universe when designing the prosthesis. The main reason would be Bucky’s safety. 

What if Bucky got into some kind of situation where he expected his prosthetic arm to be able to hold onto something only for it to fail at its union to his shoulder? If that isn’t something he expects (which we’ve established he doesn’t), that could end really badly for him. The properties of Vibranium are fantastical enough that I believe if Shuri designed it so, it wouldn’t just fail at the connection. It's the strongest, most versatile material in the world, there’s no reason it would necessarily behave like a real life engineered counterpart. The other reason ties into why Ayo had a special removal sequence in the first place. The Wakandans have a vested interest in keeping Vibranium out of the wrong hands. If someone could kill Bucky to take his arm, or just yank it off, that would be a huge risk. That’s why Bucky keeps his arm attached at all times, and why the Wakandans have proprietary knowledge for how to remove it. So these two moments go against previously established rules about how Bucky’s arm works, rules that have in-universe justification. Why am I making such a big deal about this? Hold onto your seats!

 Why did Rocket get Bucky’s arm for Christmas?

Hey remember that five second gag that James Gunn put into the Guardian’s of the Galaxy Christmas Special without considering the in-universe implications at all because it was a silly five second gag? Well it's coming to the rescue for this fan theory! At the end of the holiday special, Nebula gifts Rocket with Bucky’s prosthetic arm, much to the insane engineer’s delight. When asked how that happened, Gunn said that Nebula just popped over to Earth, rolled up to Bucky, and took his arm. There was some fandom bewilderment at the time, but it quickly passed because we understood it was not at all associated with the greater story. But now I’ve decided it is. Because as I’ve established, Bucky’s prosthetic arm can’t just be yanked off.

 Also, unless Nebula attacked  Bucky at Sarah Wilson’s house in Delacroix, Louisiana, the Bucky she grabbed the arm from was not the real Bucky. Because ever since the events of Falcon and the Winter Soldier, there’s no way that Bucky didn’t spend every Christmas with the Wilsons. And I don’t think Nebula is the type to traumatize Sam’s nephews by attacking and dismembering their Uncle Bucky in front of them on Christmas. 

So I’ve decided that this is evidence that there was at one point both a Skrull who decided to imitate Bucky walking around and a *fake copy* of Bucky’s prosthetic arm! Now of course the timeline doesn’t line up with the plot of Thunderbolts, as the Christmas Special happened years before the events of the movie, but I can still work with that. This was the equivalent of a prop or prosthetic makeup test that the entertainment industry uses. It would make sense for Skrulls to practice imitating different people before having to actually do so in a high stakes environment. And I think Bucky would present a challenge for a Skrull to imitate because of his prosthesis. I think imitating things like limb differences could be a challenge for a Skrull who is accustomed to having two full arms. And this idea leads to my final theory!

 Why is Bucky *so* out of character?

All of this wild theorycrafting circles back to the original reason for the Skrull!Bucky theory in the first place. He is so out of character that he must be a shapeshifting alien. But the whole point of a Skrull is that they are supposed to be a perfect imitation! A Skrull should be able to imitate Bucky so well that nobody is suspicious, that’s the entire reason they’re a threat in the first place. So why is Skrull!Bucky so out of character, other than the fact that he’s working with Val? In this movie, he’s completely off - he’s creepy to Mel, he’s not reading the materials he’s supposed to for his job as congressman, he’s sloppy and messy, he’s unable to speak coherently to reporters, he’s generally just unthinkingly foolish and seems tired, miserable even. This isn’t the Bucky we know - the real Bucky is respectful to women, clever and witty in a deadpan way, he values doing his job well whether it's as a sitting congressman or fixing the Wilson family’s boat. The Skrull’s disloyalty to Sam and association with Val again makes sense because he’s working with her, but how do we explain the rest of what we see in the movie? Well, it all comes back to his prosthesis. 

Here’s my theory - I think that while Skrulls are capable of transforming into lots of people, some transformations are harder than others. For example, what if you are a smaller Skrull who needs to turn into a really tall person? I think it's possible, but probably requires more training and a form of concentration. Like, if shapeshifting is like a basic instinctual movement for Skrulls, more advanced forms of shapeshifting like changing sizes or imitating a limb difference and wearing a prosthesis is akin to a human learning a more complex physical skill like gymnastics or martial arts. I think that the act of imitating Bucky specifically is taking a physically and mentally taxing toll on the Skrull replacing him. 

Skrull!Bucky has to stay transformed for a long, unbroken period of time while also navigating the stupid plot of the movie, guiding the gaggle of assholes into working for Val, fighting people and doing various difficult physical maneuvers. He’s probably taken the form of Bucky for a decent amount of time before the movie, obviously sometime after the events of Brave New World. But he would have had to take over Bucky’s role investigating Val for long enough to know to track down everyone at the start of the movie. So the Skrull!Bucky we see is probably just at the end of his rope, exhausted by the role he’s taken on, and ready for it to be over. That’s why he’s not really doing a good job imitating Bucky at this point, and nobody else notices because they don’t know the real Bucky. 

The darkly funny twist is that this could have been Walker’s opportunity to recognize that something’s up, since he’s the only person who met the real Bucky. He could have unraveled this whole plot and saved the day, but he didn't. He can’t, because he never grew and realized how he mistreated Sam and Bucky, he never got out of his own head and learned to empathize with other people. So the fact that his deep seated issues never got addressed because the Bucky everyone got to know was really a Skrull fit into the villain’s greater plan. If the real Bucky had shown up to rescue everyone, things would have gone way differently! He would have been able to provide guidance to the people who wanted to do better. He also would have actually confronted Walker and Alexei on their genuinely terrible behavior and maybe actually gotten through to them. But instead, Skrull!Bucky and Val got what they wanted, a group of people who think they’ve made progress when they really haven’t at all. People who could have chosen to stand up and do the right thing but instead got taken in by another evil organization who plan to use them for their own terrible ends.

So that’s my take on the “Bucky is a Skrull in Thunderbolts” theory. I haven’t written any fanfic before but I still wanted to try to work through my thoughts so I figured this would be the next best thing! Also I do have the beginnings of an idea that would explain the post credit scene while making it so Sam and the real Bucky aren’t separated for over a year because that would break my heart.

[starcat1701]

Hello. I somewhat recently sent you a message about how I didn’t understand why you spent (at least what I perceived as) ‘so much real energy hating on fictional people/movies’.

From reading more into this, I clearly misunderstood where your anger comes from and decided to message you before fully understanding what I was asking you about. I was quite ignorant and didn’t look deep enough into the reasons as to why you and other bipoc are, rightfully, angry. I simply saw it as ‘silly juvenile discourse about superhero movies’, when in actual fact, it’s rooted in your experiences of racism from marvel fans and certain choices marvel has made that have hurt you/continue to hurt you in a racially-rooted sense.

I wasn’t aware of the extent of this issue in this fandom, and clearly that comes from a very privileged place on my end. It’s very easy for me as a white person to engage in marvel content and then see someone’s ‘anti’ post and immediately label it as “oh these silly youngsters having arguments about pretend things”, before even realising why they’re actually angry.

I’m sorry for my ignorance.

And don’t worry about replying to this. It’s not your responsibility to resolve any white guilt. I just wanted to personally apologise to you as I at least owe you that.

I accept your apology anon.

This is the type of reflection i genuinely encourage, because i do believe people are capable of change and growth no matter what.

Sam fans don’t just harp on the same points over and over again because we are bored. But we do it (at least I do) in hopes of getting through to people like yourself, people who have the capacity for self reflection.

And I can only hope that there are many like you who have taken it upon themselves to reflect on their behavior, look inwards and ask themselves the hard questions as to why they have had such a hurt reaction when people like myself say what we do.

It’s why sam wilson is such an inspiration for me. I can’t help but feel that everyone is capable of good and growing into a better version of themselves.

So thank you

[starcat1701]

I do NOT believe in the sambucky divorce propaganda, you cannot tell me these two were building up their friendship for TWO DAMN SEASONS ending with James being invited to the Wilson family cookout, and in Sam’s movie for him to say “I love you buddy” JUST for them to get into a fight the next movie and not talk again?? It’s so ooc for Sam like he would be mad at Bucky for being called a new avenger but he wouldn’t stop talking to him for it? I feel like after hearing James’s side he wouldn’t stop talking still be mad but not at him it’s so stupid what they’re doing I HATE IT I HATE IT SO SO MUCH

[starcat1701]

Sambucky at pride!!!!!

[starcat1701]

Y'all fighting and blaming characters as if it wasn't the fault of the fucking useless writers who don't know consistency. Blame them. Get mad at them, not the characters.

I mostly blame the writers and the dipshit audience, anon, but I can still discuss the actions of fictional characters. I'm a fully grown adult, I know these people aren't real.

But you know what's real? The impact this fandom's casual racism has on bipoc fans. So, I will not shut up about shit like this.

[starcat1701]

At least it's making it really easy to know who to block.

who else still thinks john walker is irredeemably awful because i refuse to believe everyone changed their tune just because of tbolts. like that man tried to kill Sam with the cap shield and some of u bitches think he deserves to be an Avenger? some of u bitches think he deserves love and affection? some of u bitches find him ATTRACTIVE?? don’t piss me off.

[starcat1701]

The word you are looking for is an ensemble cast. You like the ensemble cast. Not found family.

[starcat1701]

canon: they died

fanfic: fUCK YOU

[starcat1701]

Disneyland Sam ILY!

[starcat1701]

Bucky Barnes with the Wilsons at the end of TFATWS:

Bucky Barnes with the so-called New Avengers at the end of Thunderbolts:

I think it’s clear who his family is….

[starcat1701]

the blorbo-ification of john walker that’s been developing in this fandom lately has been.. interesting to witness. i’d be less mad if marvel built a compelling reason to root for him and his development after thunderbolts (because i don’t subscribe to the idea that characters can be irredeemable) but like.. we have yet to see a compelling reason to root for him (imo obviously). i think people just saw a man being sad and sassy and completely forgot that he was the physical representation of white privilege in the narrative of tfatws. he became cap with miles less resistance than sam would have had initially, despite steve gifting sam the shield. walker had a violent episode and murdered a civilian (who, reminder, did NOT kill lemar) in a scene that served to contrast the extreme levels of restraint and self-possession sam has to show AT ALL TIMES to even be a hero as a black man in america.

and then in thunderbolts, john is just a man with a few funny lines, and a few sad lines, experiencing (minimal) consequences of his actions (his wife leaving him, public backlash. honestly he could be in jail.). once again i’ll say, i’m not even opposed to a john walker redemption arc. i just think it’s poor storytelling by marvel to not address the themes of race/privilege so inherent to john walker’s character in tfatws if they’re trying to “redeem” him and put him in the mainstream of mcu heroes. and i think it’s an interesting interpretation by fans to ignore the themes of race and privilege in walker’s character to go ahead and woobify him into a lovable pathetic wet cat man, in love with bob and play-bantering with bucky.

the crux of john walker’s character is this: he is a white man who achieved things far easier than others with more personal merit could. he entered the us military as a young man and spent near-constant years involved in foreign intervention. he is a man who believed himself heroic enough for the serum and the shield and he was wrong. his entire life has been marked by narratives of nationalism and american exceptionalism, and thus implicit white supremacy. these are things he (and his redemption arc) must grapple with.

when it comes down to it, walker fans, i’m not saying walker shouldn’t be your blorbo. i’m asking why you’re sanitizing the sociopolitical commentary his character served to give in tfatws in order to blorbify him.

[starcat1701]

The funniest part about all these team Bucky vs team Sam theories for Avengers: Doomsday is that Bucky himself would pick team Sam 😂.

[starcat1701]

5 Times Bucky wanted to tell Sam he loved him

+ 1 time he did

[starcat1701]

A month ago I saw the asterisk movie.

This post now feels like it was written by a totally different person.

It's so hard for me to continue to find joy in this ship after what happened.

It was such a small thing, really, in the grand scheme of things. But it made me so happy.

And losing it hurts.

SamBucky Changed My Life

This post (about discovering fandom in your sixties) struck a nerve with me, so I wanted to make a post for the SamBucky fandom saying thank you.

I'm in my mid-40s. When TFATWS came out, I was juggling kids, job, pandemic. I was so burnt out.

By the time TFATWS ended, I was GONE on SamBucky. Fixing the boat? Done. Bucky's heart eyes when he looked at Sam?! Be.Still.My.Heart. Sam brushing the back of Bucky's neck as they walked away into the literal sunset??!! NEVER GETTING OVER IT.

I found AO3 because of SamBucky.

I joined Tumblr because of SamBucky (because I needed somewhere to scream about them with people who would scream too).

I started writing fanfic because of the rumoured SamBucky divorce and all the feelings I had about that.

I published fanfic on AO3 because of SamBucky, put my writing out into the world, something I hadn't been brave enough to do before.

In my 20s and my 30s, I mostly put my fandoms aside. I was busy - university, moving, dating, marriage, kids. Some part of me thought I should put down childish things and that anything I had loved as a child was automatically childish.

And then came SamBucky. The joy I get from this fandom, from reading the amazing works on AO3, from the GIFs, from the conversations it's sparked with my friends, with my sister, with my kid - it has honestly changed my life.

I've returned to my old fandoms. I've started going to conventions. I'm reading genres of fiction I haven't picked up in years. I'm writing more than ever. When I'm having a bad day, I watch the final scene from TFATWS.

SamBucky gave me permission to be both a responsible adult with a job, kids, house, etc. AND someone who wakes up in the morning, remembers that Bucky canonically said 'I love you' to Sam, and gets a stupid-ass grin on her face.

It isn't stupid. It isn't childish.

I'm so happy to be here.

[starcat1701]

You might say "But it's only $45 million behind Brave New World! Wah was wah" and I'd say sure....

But Thunderbolts didn't have nearly two years worth of negative stories planted to diminish its public standing, false stories of being entirely reshot, of costing over 300 million, etc. All to manufacture negative opinion before its release.

Thunderbolts didn't have to contend with an incredibly racist fan base, looking for any excuse to tear down a Black Captain America. Didn't have news outlets jumping on sound bytes to deliberately misrepresent the words of its lead actor.

Thunderbolts had a whole marketing drive promoting itself as "Real Cinema". Using the names of far better projects and creatives to boost its image.

Thunderbolts had a far, far larger promotional drive. More billboards, more posters, more PREMIERES, Marvel screening it for MCU cast preparing for Doomsday, in order to promote it via them on instragram.

Thunderbolts endlessly tried to make the whole 'Florence jumped off a building' a thing when frankly it pales in comparison to even the tamest of Mission Impossible stunts. 🤷‍♀️

Thunderbolts was even given more THEATRES to open to, even despite a heavier market.

Thunderbolts had critics and youtubers glazing the hell out of this thing from the moment the review embargo dropped, having you believe this was the second coming of the MCU, the "best since Endgame" 🤣

Thunderbolts had an entire post-release marketing drive to promote the cast as the "New Avengers", without a shred of irony.

So take all these things together, and this outcome is pretty damn embarrassing for the Thunderbolts I'd said. 🤣😂

And more people who come to view both in the future will look back and agree

Brave New World was incredibly overhated.

Thunderbolts is incredibly overrated.

[starcat1701]

"But what if Billie Piper isn't really the Doctor, what if she is-" I would argue that it doesn't matter.

Doctor Who is on hiatus for however long now. Two years is being said a lot, but even if it was only until Christmas: The Doctor regenerating into Piper is the last thing we saw. For how many months or years, that is the picture that will stick with us. People will try to go on using that last image they have. There will be fanart with Piper as the Doctor, fics with Piper as the Doctor, people using "16th Doctor" to mean Piper, the whole thing. They can pull a UNO reverse card on us in two years, we still will have lived two years with Piper as the Doctor in collective consciousness. And yes, this absolutely impacts the way that people will think about Gatwa's legacy.