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Dany’s Fate?

TW Rambling.��

In ASOIAF, a rejection of one’s own nature directly leads to their demise and/or death and acception of this nature leads to their escape from that fate. 

Parallels with Robb

Robb rejects his wolfish nature, even though Greywind ripping someone’s hand earned him the truth and loyalty of his men —>  This puts him in a grave danger —> Death

Daenerys locks her dragons up —> This puts her in a grave danger —> ???

Parallels with Arya & Jon

Arya: Reconnects with her nature —> ‘'I am a direwolf, and done with the wooden teeth.” —> Manages to escape the Harrenhal —> Survival

Jon: Has a weaker connection with his wolf —> He’s now dead, stuck in Ghost —> He is forced to reconnect with his direwolf —> (Possible) Survival

Dany: Drogon crashes the wedding party —> This forces her to reconnect with her dragon —> (Possible) Survival

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modern au

im expanding the sketch from before, so, a first look at my take on Jon Snow modern day

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Loving a brother is like no other

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cersei fitss

guys, i broke a leg

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I can shit on tyrion all I like for being annoying and having a boring arc in adwd but the truth is he (alongside cat) is one of the best written characters in the books

even when he's being a little bitch every thought that man ever has is so clearly explained by his upbringing and all the shit he's been through since the start of the series. like yeah I'm mad that he's projecting his insecurities onto sansa and wishing this 13 year old child would want to fuck him but unfortunately I understand him sooo much. I don't have to like or agree with what he's doing but I am forced to always understand where he's coming from because george did SUCH a good job with his psyche it's infuriating

like the way he INSTANTLY becomes more insecure and starts diminishing himself in his on head the SECOND he sees his dad again in agot. the way he slowly becomes the monster everyone sees him at because he can't stand taking so much shit anymore. the way the sound of the crossbow and tywin's death haunt his every thought in adwd and the clearly conflicting feelings he has for his family and his identity as a lannister...

the way he reacts every time he meets another little person, the mixture of disgust and understanding that just drives him mad. even in adwd his whole relationship with penny, the way he resents her father for the way he raised her and her brother to never see themselves as more than a circus act, his enormous empathy towards her and the guilt he feels for her brother's death (even if he denies it)... it's all just so compelling even if I find this whole arc a bit dull

he's such a good and complex character. a masterclass in character writing. the same way there can never be another catelyn stark there can also never be another tyrion lannister I fear

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dany！

commission down by 白小兔

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no worries! i actually loved that you brought cersei into this bc she’s a perfect example of how fandom moral binaries implode on contact. the fandom sanctioned madonna-whoreification of certain female characters is like the black box, bodies in the concrete, hell’s on fire type shit lol. what i mean is that this discourse contains the secrets to understanding why this fandom is free falling into the open ocean while it’s as impossibly grotesque in its attempt to hide the underlying misogyny all while its so damn obvious that it feels like someone’s shouting HELLS ON FIRE bc ofc female characters are held to insane regressive standards bc big !! shocker ppl are misogynistic. like, the text isn’t even saying what Some people think it is. too many takes are just projections in drag, and much of what some say says more about their beliefs than the actual text bc they full stop say stuff so confidently while being completely divorced from the words on the page. so. so much of what i see isn’t analysis but ppl fronting how they think things should’ve been written as canon text backed holy scripture when it’s actually a charlatans poor imitation

few things annoy me more than some of this fandoms 1. weird pro-slavers anti-dany bias and 2. stripping a woman’s experience from female characters because they don’t ’woman right’ enough

i don’t even really want to discuss point one because it disgusts me so fucking much. not only is the logic convoluted and always hinges on interpreting dany’s actions in the absolute worst light possible. it is also very, very misogynistic due to the double standards necessary to condemn dany to such a degree while none of the male characters committing the same or worse offenses get even a smidge of criticism from these same people. i’m just going to say one last thing: if you are using pro-confederacy talking points to condemn dany then you are a vile person.

as for point two, this is much more insidious in my opinion. much of it is based on the idea that these specific (normally gender nonconforming) female characters were ‘indulged’ so therefore their experiences do not meet the necessary ‘standards’ to equate to a woman’s experience. it’s insane logic meant to demean a female character and condemn her agency and the choices she made. it’s the type of logic that always veers into the ‘arya was indulged and therefore her experiences are less valid’ or ‘dany’s power and agency makes her experiences less valid because she’s not suffering this specific way’ or ‘lyanna was indulged and is therefore selfish and her experiences are less valid.’ for some reason it is always. always. these three characters getting attacked in this specific way. all three female characters faced the same exact challenges as every. single. other. female character. the same barriers, they share similar experiences with male characters to varying degrees.

arya and sansa were both ‘indulged’ by ned. i agree that ned had an easier time connecting to arya (like how cat had an easier time connecting to sansa), but both girls were indulged (like most noble girls!) and this is framed as a good thing. please don’t turn it into something bad, especially when both instances fostered character growth. after neds death arya continues to have a variety of experiences, and through arya we actually learn what a peasant girls experience looks like! no, arya does not have a boys experience. a girl hiding as a boy in a war zone is a common occurrence in the real world, and it is not just valid to explore but key to understanding george’s views on war. so far though arya we see 1. a non-conforming little girls life whose father was kind but still held gendered expectations for her. 2. a common girls experience without family or class protections going through a war zone. 3. a servant girls experience under feudalism where servants have basically no rights. 4. arya also gives us a multitude of experiences after becoming an acolyte at the hobaw. all of these experiences (including the erasure of arya’s identity and her holding onto it) are important looks into different classes and how outsiders view westeros. people not respecting arya’s very female experience makes me fear that there’s a bit of a aesthetic/male gaze epidemic going on here. arya’s suffering isn’t pretty enough or isn’t in a romantic setting so it gets dismissed. it’s dirty and violent and crass and doesn’t conform to passive suffering. there’s also a classism angle to all of it, though that would require an essay of its own to cover everything. but please remember that at the core of arya’s storyline is a simple truth: the world is hostile to girls.

dany is oftentimes hit by two different anti views: 1. a focus on her lack of agency but no focus on her rise to power 2. a dismissal of the validity of her experience as a female character because she’s risen to power. both views are incredibly self serving and are meant to chip away at character relatability. focusing on her lack of agency is tasteless (imo), and suggests that the person sees dany’s experiences with men/women as a ruler as inherently invalid because she has power that places her above the pecking order. this makes me believe that you cannot handle a female character whose path to power stands as different from the rest. it’s odd to say the least, and tells me that you think there is a right way to gain power just like people believe there is a correct way to end slavery without upsetting the poor economy. as for point two, this is similar to most anti rhetoric levied at arya and lyanna. because the experiences explored through dany and arya and lyanna are outside the norm, and because they are incredibly active characters, they also make waves and are involved in things like… violence *gasp* death *GASP* adultery (this one just relates to dany and lyanna. arya’s three apples tall so this doesn’t apply to her) *GASPGASPGASP*. people seem genuinely unable to handle complexity in women’s lives. some people seem to have a very narrow view on what counts as a woman’s experience, but if a woman steps outside those bounds she is therefore stripped of her womanhood and is fair ground for attacking. this is something i see so clearly in every anti dany post. i’m exhausted tbh.

as for lyanna… well... some people seem to believe that lyanna making active choices (knight of the laughing tree, running away, having a bastard) therefore mean she was ‘indulged,’ which is both true and not true. all noble girls are indulged more than their common girl counterparts, but lyanna was still placed under gendered expectations like all the rest of her peers. lyanna clearly just didn’t let these expectations prevent her from playing around with sticks and riding in a tourney as a mystery knight to defend the honor of howland (who would’ve been considered a nobody to most). her actions were clearly driven by her morals, morals she placed in higher esteem than gendered expectations. trying to strip a woman’s experience from her is just wrong. these people are practically telling on themselves and show that they cannot sympathize nor understand a female character who steps away from the beaten path, and does something considered ‘morally wrong’ in her world and in our own: having an illegitimate child with a married man. oh nooo… anyways. this just proves to me that many women cannot sympathize with a woman who does something they consider ‘wrong’ and that women will take it so far as to invalidate the womanhood of those they consider ‘not right.’ i think of lyanna as a litmus test tbh. i will absolutely judge you for your views on her. if you fail then i am NOT trusting your views on dany and arya.

i want to add onto this actually. catelyn is another character who’d place high on this list, though i’m actually really happy with the direction the fandom is going with her on this issue at the moment. many people struggle with cat because she… *GASP* doesn’t mother jon. cat’s a very active character, but thanks to fandom’s standards, she has the benefit of fitting into our preconceived notions of how a mother should behave—expect in how she treats jon. and then it’s a goddamn bloodbath. i’m glad most people now seem to agree that cat’s character is not only made better, but that it’s completely valid of her to not have mothered jon or theon. still, cat is often criticized for the choices she makes as a mother to protect her children. here, i see a dismissal and even a mocking of motherhood and Love as valid motivations for risky behaviors. and that does disappoint me. however, catelyn didn’t make my top 3 because she experiences confinement—she is stripped of power and agency—and this, i fear, is why she ends up meeting the criteria for what some fans view as a ‘valid’ female character. all because she lost power to her son :/. hopefully it’s obvious that i’m not dismissing this arc, because i do think it’s important to explore. but it’s still vexing to me that a woman’s loss of agency is so often treated as peak feminism (a trend i see a lot in modern feminist literature and one i honestly cringe at).

i believe i covered everything i wanted to. i’m just struggling with this fandom and the way people treat womanhood as some narrow thing with criteria one must meet. womanhood shouldn’t be something that feels so excluding. well, to me it should be embracing and kind and supportive of girls from all walks of life. being a woman makes you a woman. that’s it. that’s all the criteria you should need to meet to be embraced, and that logic should reflect back onto the female characters we all love and care about. thanks for reading :)

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Jon Snow and Ramsay Bolton 😘 my perception 🤩🥰 YAAAYYYYYYYYY !!!!

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thanks for the addition, and i do mostly agree! i think the erasure of cersei’s cruelty is a bit overstated here because from what I’ve seen, broader portions of the fandom (across platforms) actually tend to be harsher toward her and fixate more on cersei as an individual moral failure than as a product of a patriarchal system. that said… i definitely should have been clearer in my original post! i used ‘fandom’ as a blanket term when i was actually jumping around from the fandom at large and focusing on smaller subfandoms. in this case, it’s some of those smaller groups that tend to strip cersei of her agency by laying her faults entirely at robert’s feet. i 100% agree that cersei needs to be viewed in her entirety, and that failing to do so is regressive no matter how well meaning a person is. imo, cersei is george’s attempt to reconstruct the ‘evil queen’ trope, and while i do have some criticisms about how her arc is handled compared to her male counterparts (especially her brothers), i also think hers is one of the best reimaginings of that archetype. the idea that robert and tywin ‘made her this way’ does a disservice not just to her characterization, but to the themes being explored as it denies her agency, flattens the structural dynamics at play, and ultimately pivots away from asoiaf’s commentary on systemic injustice. it’s the classic missing the forest for the tree problem.

that said, i do think some of this overcorrection is a response to how terribly the wider fandom has treated cersei, and it’s important to push back at that. but we’re reaching a point (or i hope we are lol) where a more nuanced understanding of her character is becoming the norm. i could be wrong tho!! i don’t track cersei discourse as closely as i do for the other characters I wrote about.

getting back on track now! my main point about cersei is this: certain subgroups have no issue extending empathy to female characters who slot nicely into the ‘villain’ category. cersei’s gender non conformity, and her acts of agency are acknowledged AND *respected* BECAUSE she’s a villain. but that same respect is not given to heroes like dany, arya, or even lyanna, whose non conformity is often policed more strictly by these subgroups because they’re meant to be heroes who’s acts of agency are complicated by an oppressive and cruel world. that dissonance is what o was trying to talk about, and I should have made that clearer, so thank you for prompting me to clarify!! tbh i probably shouldn’t make posts like this when i’m tired bc i always mess up smh smh 🤦‍♀️

also! i really appreciated your last paragraph. you put it beautifully: many people don’t view women as people—they view us as women. our personhood is always filtered through expectations of gendered behavior. off topic, but this is why i wish more people appreciated the value of choice feminism. while it absolutely deserves critique, o still think it’s more important to celebrate acts of agency than to moralize over whether they align with a specific feminist ideal

^tbh i feel more and more enamored by this nihilist drivel the more i interact with this fandom hdidjcjfj

few things annoy me more than some of this fandoms 1. weird pro-slavers anti-dany bias and 2. stripping a woman’s experience from female characters because they don’t ’woman right’ enough

i don’t even really want to discuss point one because it disgusts me so fucking much. not only is the logic convoluted and always hinges on interpreting dany’s actions in the absolute worst light possible. it is also very, very misogynistic due to the double standards necessary to condemn dany to such a degree while none of the male characters committing the same or worse offenses get even a smidge of criticism from these same people. i’m just going to say one last thing: if you are using pro-confederacy talking points to condemn dany then you are a vile person.

as for point two, this is much more insidious in my opinion. much of it is based on the idea that these specific (normally gender nonconforming) female characters were ‘indulged’ so therefore their experiences do not meet the necessary ‘standards’ to equate to a woman’s experience. it’s insane logic meant to demean a female character and condemn her agency and the choices she made. it’s the type of logic that always veers into the ‘arya was indulged and therefore her experiences are less valid’ or ‘dany’s power and agency makes her experiences less valid because she’s not suffering this specific way’ or ‘lyanna was indulged and is therefore selfish and her experiences are less valid.’ for some reason it is always. always. these three characters getting attacked in this specific way. all three female characters faced the same exact challenges as every. single. other. female character. the same barriers, they share similar experiences with male characters to varying degrees.

arya and sansa were both ‘indulged’ by ned. i agree that ned had an easier time connecting to arya (like how cat had an easier time connecting to sansa), but both girls were indulged (like most noble girls!) and this is framed as a good thing. please don’t turn it into something bad, especially when both instances fostered character growth. after neds death arya continues to have a variety of experiences, and through arya we actually learn what a peasant girls experience looks like! no, arya does not have a boys experience. a girl hiding as a boy in a war zone is a common occurrence in the real world, and it is not just valid to explore but key to understanding george’s views on war. so far though arya we see 1. a non-conforming little girls life whose father was kind but still held gendered expectations for her. 2. a common girls experience without family or class protections going through a war zone. 3. a servant girls experience under feudalism where servants have basically no rights. 4. arya also gives us a multitude of experiences after becoming an acolyte at the hobaw. all of these experiences (including the erasure of arya’s identity and her holding onto it) are important looks into different classes and how outsiders view westeros. people not respecting arya’s very female experience makes me fear that there’s a bit of a aesthetic/male gaze epidemic going on here. arya’s suffering isn’t pretty enough or isn’t in a romantic setting so it gets dismissed. it’s dirty and violent and crass and doesn’t conform to passive suffering. there’s also a classism angle to all of it, though that would require an essay of its own to cover everything. but please remember that at the core of arya’s storyline is a simple truth: the world is hostile to girls.

dany is oftentimes hit by two different anti views: 1. a focus on her lack of agency but no focus on her rise to power 2. a dismissal of the validity of her experience as a female character because she’s risen to power. both views are incredibly self serving and are meant to chip away at character relatability. focusing on her lack of agency is tasteless (imo), and suggests that the person sees dany’s experiences with men/women as a ruler as inherently invalid because she has power that places her above the pecking order. this makes me believe that you cannot handle a female character whose path to power stands as different from the rest. it’s odd to say the least, and tells me that you think there is a right way to gain power just like people believe there is a correct way to end slavery without upsetting the poor economy. as for point two, this is similar to most anti rhetoric levied at arya and lyanna. because the experiences explored through dany and arya and lyanna are outside the norm, and because they are incredibly active characters, they also make waves and are involved in things like… violence *gasp* death *GASP* adultery (this one just relates to dany and lyanna. arya’s three apples tall so this doesn’t apply to her) *GASPGASPGASP*. people seem genuinely unable to handle complexity in women’s lives. some people seem to have a very narrow view on what counts as a woman’s experience, but if a woman steps outside those bounds she is therefore stripped of her womanhood and is fair ground for attacking. this is something i see so clearly in every anti dany post. i’m exhausted tbh.

as for lyanna… well... some people seem to believe that lyanna making active choices (knight of the laughing tree, running away, having a bastard) therefore mean she was ‘indulged,’ which is both true and not true. all noble girls are indulged more than their common girl counterparts, but lyanna was still placed under gendered expectations like all the rest of her peers. lyanna clearly just didn’t let these expectations prevent her from playing around with sticks and riding in a tourney as a mystery knight to defend the honor of howland (who would’ve been considered a nobody to most). her actions were clearly driven by her morals, morals she placed in higher esteem than gendered expectations. trying to strip a woman’s experience from her is just wrong. these people are practically telling on themselves and show that they cannot sympathize nor understand a female character who steps away from the beaten path, and does something considered ‘morally wrong’ in her world and in our own: having an illegitimate child with a married man. oh nooo… anyways. this just proves to me that many women cannot sympathize with a woman who does something they consider ‘wrong’ and that women will take it so far as to invalidate the womanhood of those they consider ‘not right.’ i think of lyanna as a litmus test tbh. i will absolutely judge you for your views on her. if you fail then i am NOT trusting your views on dany and arya.

i want to add onto this actually. catelyn is another character who’d place high on this list, though i’m actually really happy with the direction the fandom is going with her on this issue at the moment. many people struggle with cat because she… *GASP* doesn’t mother jon. cat’s a very active character, but thanks to fandom’s standards, she has the benefit of fitting into our preconceived notions of how a mother should behave—expect in how she treats jon. and then it’s a goddamn bloodbath. i’m glad most people now seem to agree that cat’s character is not only made better, but that it’s completely valid of her to not have mothered jon or theon. still, cat is often criticized for the choices she makes as a mother to protect her children. here, i see a dismissal and even a mocking of motherhood and Love as valid motivations for risky behaviors. and that does disappoint me. however, catelyn didn’t make my top 3 because she experiences confinement—she is stripped of power and agency—and this, i fear, is why she ends up meeting the criteria for what some fans view as a ‘valid’ female character. all because she lost power to her son :/. hopefully it’s obvious that i’m not dismissing this arc, because i do think it’s important to explore. but it’s still vexing to me that a woman’s loss of agency is so often treated as peak feminism (a trend i see a lot in modern feminist literature and one i honestly cringe at).

i believe i covered everything i wanted to. i’m just struggling with this fandom and the way people treat womanhood as some narrow thing with criteria one must meet. womanhood shouldn’t be something that feels so excluding. well, to me it should be embracing and kind and supportive of girls from all walks of life. being a woman makes you a woman. that’s it. that’s all the criteria you should need to meet to be embraced, and that logic should reflect back onto the female characters we all love and care about. thanks for reading :)

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i don’t like talking about this stuff because i genuinely think it’s amazing that people from all over the world can connect with asoiaf in different ways. but. it really fucking hurts when people casually imply that the cultures george actually drew from weren’t good enough, and that he should’ve looked elsewhere for inspiration. and what’s worse is that these people think they’re being progressive. but they’re not—they’re erasing the cultural influence of a culture that was already nearly erased. well. if people want to ignore and disrespect the fact that the irish are the key inspiration behind much of asoiaf worldbuilding—especially the north—then whatever. but be prepared to lose what makes asoiaf asoiaf all because people think we’re interchangeable/replaceable. so. i’m taking back the druidic inspiration behind the weirwoods. i’m taking back the children of the forest, the Others, the free folk, the crannogmen, the barrowlands, the high kings, ETC (these are just the most obvious examples—i could go on). i’m taking back everything that makes the north the north, since so many people have decided my people weren’t good enough to have inspired it. :D

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princess arianne martell and queen daenerys stormborn

— commission made by @/Cj_KhalifP on twitter

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jon’s eyes // louis garrel

i’ve always imagined jon with a strong brow that shadows his eyes, which is what makes the dark grey appear black. his eyes should look guarded and solemn with a deep sadness to them.

dany’s eyes // angelina jolie

i’ve always imagined dany with large eyes that make her appear wise beyond her years with a strong look to them. her kindness should always shine through despite the steely look she can wield.

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I don't understand why Elia stans are always so offended that people like Lyanna or that she's "more popular". Like these people are the same ones who spout the same feminist bs like "we shouldn't pit women against each other🥺." While forcing a massive competition between Elia and Lyanna.

I don't know any Lyanna stans who shit on Elia or say she deserved to die. I have seen almost every Elia stan hardcore hate Lyanna. Whether it's for "stealing Rhaegar" or starting Robert's rebellion, Lyanna is demonized constantly by that part of the fandom. Meanwhile the same part bitches and moans about how unappreciated Elia is and how unfairly the fandom treats her. Something I have yet to see btw.

Of course Lyanna is going to be popular and well liked, of course she's going to be talked about more often. She's a vital character to the ASOIAF story, despite being long dead. She also stands out by being non-conforming and willful.

We know so much about her character: her personality and values are very plainly portrayed in Ned's thoughts and Bran's visions. Lyanna is a character we the readers have come to know very well and her presence is felt in most of the primary characters' stories.

Elia simply isn't as fleshed out or central to the story as Lyanna is. Yes, of course she's still important and good. We just don't know her as well. We're told very little about her and I don't think that's going to change now that Oberyn is dead and Doran is pretty close behind.

I'm not saying she's a bad character or anything like that, she's just more of a side character than Lyanna is. Her primary contribution in the story is to show the Lannisters' (and Robert's) brutality and injustice and to be Rhaegar's wife/Aegon and Rhaenys' mother. That's just how it is.

Yes, it would be great to know more about her and it's a massive tragedy and injustice what happened to her and her children. However, expecting her, a side character who's kept relatively obscure by the books, to be equally or more popular than one of the most important characters from the preASOIAF time is ridiculous.

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Art by mourningstorms

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About the faceless men

It seems to me that the fandom often sees the FM as glorified mercenaries, but they are first and foremost a religious order. Of course they will have their interests, but I believe most of their contracts are accepted or not depending on how they relate to their theology.

Let me explain: let's look at the story of the Waif, regardless of whether it is the truth or not, it can tell us a lot about the type of payment that is requested by the order.

Her stepmother wants the Waif dead so that her child can inherit. So the stepmother goes to the FMs and they ask for her child as payment. She refuses. The Waif's father finds out what his wife has done and so he goes to the FMs. The father gives his daughter to HoBaW (along with money) in exchange for the death of his wife.

The reason his sacrifice is accepted and the stepmother's is not is that the exchange of life and death must be of equal value. They don't kill your stepdaughter if you're not willing to pay with your child's life. It is not a simple monetary exchange, it is a religious sacrifice. In this case a death in exchange for a life of service (valar morghulis, valar dohaeris).

The story of the second FM is similar. He wanted his master's death and paid for it by sacrificing his own life at the service of the Many-Faced-God.

Even the one between Jaqen and Arya is a balanced exchange, not mercenary: three lives for three lives.

Then there are cases in which we don't know what the sacrifice/payment required was, such as that of the insurance man.

There is also the case of Euron, which is not confirmed. The theory says that Euron gave a dragon egg for King Balon's death. This is a very high price: Mormont claims that the sale of Dany's eggs could make her a wealthy woman for the rest of her life. If this happened it means that the faceless men demanded one of the most precious things that Euron possessed as payment. Maybe even forcing him to change his plans if he intended to try to hatch the egg.

The only character who refers to FMs in monetary terms is Baelish. He argues that hiring a faceless man costs twice as much as an entire mercenary army, and that's the price for a merchant's death, who knows what they might ask for Daenerys Targaryen's life.

But this is not true, we know that there is no similar tariff, the 'price' is always different and must be negotiated with the FMs. And it seems that they always tend to ask for the maximum that the client is able to offer.

It may be that Baelish has a somewhat distorted idea of how FM works. He is the only Westrosi who seems to be familiar with them, probably because his family is from Braavos. But by now they have lived on the Westeros for more than three generations so it is possible that the cultural context surrounding the HoBaW is lost on Petyr.

Do you agree with this view or you are more on the expensive hitmen train? Are there any examples from the FM mission in the books that can tell us more about their philosophy?

Here are some cool lore videos that were made as special content for the show. They are only semi-canonical, but they are interesting, I recommend them:

The Facelessmen narrated by Tycho Nestoris

The Many-Faced-God narrated by Jaqen H'ghar

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Rhaegar Targaryen, Silver Prince

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Azor Ahai (don’t come at me i’d kill for her)