syscourse-shmiscourse

[syscourse-shmiscourse]

Imagine forcing the idea that if you fuck up in life you deserve to suffer and never get the chance to redeem yourself.

How fucking dare you. The not only suggest we have all DESERVED to be traumatized but also that no one who isn't perfect has no chance of being redeemed nor should they be given the chance.

Take some time off syscourse. You need it.

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By the way, I just want to mention something about anon as a feature.

While I am definitely clowning on anons for sending anon hate, I actually love anon asks. The reasons why I make fun of the anon hate (such as the anti willo anon or daily accountability) is because they're sending hate anonymously. If you hate me so much, or insist I am evil and bad, then say it with your full chest. Be brave enough to show your face alongside your hatred.

But if you're being kind, or genuine, or you want to know something but you're afraid to send an ask with your main blog? No judgement here.

I almost never send asks using my main blog due to the fear of harassment, seeing as I've been harassed on other platforms for "being a sysmed," even when what I was posting was like... my writing. It's nerve wracking! But if I were to send anon hate, I would attach my name to it. I would be brave enough to go, "I stand by my words."

But I often send love anons, because I want people to get good messages. I often send genuine questions of discourse on anon, because while I'm scared of harassment, I want to know.

I don't judge anyone for using anon unless they're being a bitchass hater.

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No one is diagnosed with "RAMCOA", either. RAMCOA is a blanket statement including many, many forms of abuse, not just one specific one. That's like saying someone can be diagnosed with marital abuse. It's not a diagnosis, it's just what you went through to develop those trauma disorders.

You specifically stated that they are clinical and diagnostic terms, which is why I reblogged to clarify. Now you're saying they aren't. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make.

hc did is not a clinical or diagnostic term???

Yes it is and it’s a coined term online, as well as for the term RAMCOA it’s a type of abuse and it’s a official diagnostic term for both parties.

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Hi. OEA system. "Highly complex" is not a clinical or diagnostic term. It is a community term. DID is not separated into "typical", "complex", or "highly complex" in diagnostic literature. Those are terms coined by the community to describe their internal structure.

While specialists may describe one's presentation as "complex", it's just a descriptor. No one is diagnosed with "Highly complex DID". It's just DID. Polyfragmentation isn't even a diagnosis.

hc did is not a clinical or diagnostic term???

Yes it is and it’s a coined term online, as well as for the term RAMCOA it’s a type of abuse and it’s a official diagnostic term for both parties.

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Healthy multiplicity was reeking with ableism, no thanks

Also "ordered plurality" is just stupid if "non-disordered" bothers you because you're linguistically inept just revert to "healthy multiplicity" and be done with it

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as a general rule of thumb, i really don't think anyone who is bodily a minor should be involved in the discourse of whether or not littles can consent to NSFW activities because it's extremely likely that they can't bodily consent anyways.

and part of the discourse is based around systems that are bodily at or above the age of consent.

like if you're bodily 15 for example, you shouldn't be in this discourse because you already can't consent anyhow.

[syscourse-shmiscourse]

But you weren't talking about just your own lived experience. For example, the part that actually made me reblog for clarity is the claim that C-DID has an earlier age requirement for trauma than typical DID. It's widely agreed that it's an earlier age requirement by who?

This wasn't in bad faith. It was an attempt to clarify because while you're talking about your own experiences, you're also making blanket claims as well. I wanted to see if you had sources to back yourself up about it so that I could look into it further. People asking for sources to look further into a claim about a wide group of people is not asking in bad faith.

So!! What's CDID?

Okay so, based on our knowledge and understanding, and well, having it, I’ll give my best run down!

C-DID is Complex dissociative identity disorder!

You might say “but DID is complex” yes! It’s just a categorization, not a separate diagnosis.

You need to have a few things to be a C-DID system that aren’t always common in DID systems!

You have to have multiple subsystems, sidesystems, and higher dissociation (often leading in more alters). This type of DID is one that comes from often more intense more prolonged trauma. While most DID can develop into being 9-10, C-DID is widely agreed to be developed earlier.

In some cases certain types of trauma (RAMCOA) are considered needed, I do not have ramcoa trauma therefore won’t be discussing it but I have severe dissociation, a lot of subsystems and side-systems and a pretty high alter count. I also have pretty intense trauma in areas of things that may be associated with ramcoa, though that does not apply to me. I won't get into my trauma here, as it's not needed, but the term can be applied to trauma outside of ramcoa occasionally, though I do say it shouldn't be thrown arround! Just having a high alter count and subsystems does NOT mean you have C-DID.

I do not use the term C-DID lightly, it simply applies to my system well! It is not about trauma Olympics or anything like that, which some think. It's about being able to categorize and help your system heal by knowing how it works!

[syscourse-shmiscourse]

I'd be curious to see sources to back up some things you say. Complex and Highly Complex are community terms that aren't really used in practice. I have never seen anything saying that age has anything to do with it. If anything, it's gatekept pretty hard by the RAMCOA/OEA community, particularly with negative allegations against the coiner.

Do you have anything I can look into this further?

So!! What's CDID?

Okay so, based on our knowledge and understanding, and well, having it, I’ll give my best run down!

C-DID is Complex dissociative identity disorder!

You might say “but DID is complex” yes! It’s just a categorization, not a separate diagnosis.

You need to have a few things to be a C-DID system that aren’t always common in DID systems!

You have to have multiple subsystems, sidesystems, and higher dissociation (often leading in more alters). This type of DID is one that comes from often more intense more prolonged trauma. While most DID can develop into being 9-10, C-DID is widely agreed to be developed earlier.

In some cases certain types of trauma (RAMCOA) are considered needed, I do not have ramcoa trauma therefore won’t be discussing it but I have severe dissociation, a lot of subsystems and side-systems and a pretty high alter count. I also have pretty intense trauma in areas of things that may be associated with ramcoa, though that does not apply to me. I won't get into my trauma here, as it's not needed, but the term can be applied to trauma outside of ramcoa occasionally, though I do say it shouldn't be thrown arround! Just having a high alter count and subsystems does NOT mean you have C-DID.

I do not use the term C-DID lightly, it simply applies to my system well! It is not about trauma Olympics or anything like that, which some think. It's about being able to categorize and help your system heal by knowing how it works!

[syscourse-shmiscourse]

I finally looked at that soulbonding strawpage so it's time to disprove it. Feel free to link this if this discourse ever comes up over there I don't really care

This is also highlights why you really shouldn't trust anything presenting itself as an informational resource that doesn't have sources. Don't worry everyone, I spent way too long going through websites that were made for a monitor the size of a shoebox to get them

so the reason is moreso that the term system wasn't known to the soulbonding community at the time and it's a case of two separately developed communities. Think like otherkin and therian developed separately but started to share terms later.

Unfortunately, LiveJournal was being a bitch, and the soulbonding LJ was not archived well. Thankfully I did find a mirror that let me search, and here are the earliest results.

The most blatant one is sourced 08.07.03: "(I have SoulBonds, and one could say I'm part of a multiple-ish system. It's *not* DID, though. I guess most of you know about empowered multiplicity and SBing anyway.)"

You can find a lot more references to soulbonds as systems from around this time too! and nothing really saying they aren't systems (even in early accounts of discourse).

You also have this essay, likely from around that time, that discusses directly this combining between soulbonding and multiplicity.

"If you look through the annals of history, you'll notice that much of the soulbonding community thought itself very far removed from plurality, and the multiple community out there didn't even address soulbonding at all. Recently, all of this has been changing very quickly. Now, you don't have to look very hard to find multiple systems who admit to soulbonding, or soulbonders who have acknowledged themselves as multiple."

(Also "Hopefully in a year or two, we'll be writing another essay called 'Our Thoughts on the New Friendship Between the Multiple and Soulbonding Communities.'" BUDDY I AM SORRY-)

I also actually found a comment on Psych Forums, a DID community, that discusses soulbonds in 2010 and having soulbonds with alters, which was very interesting.

But anyway either way it seems like when soulbonders learned about the term system and multiple, they started using it.

Similar to what happened with fictive actually but that's a whole other topic to explain.

I wasn't going to acknowledge this because I don't know fuck all about tulpamancy, but stuff about the overlap kept coming up in other sources so here you go.

From Soul Whispers in at least 2004 (context being a semi-conscious creation element to soulbonding): "This theory also has its own basis in ancient spiritualities; there is a belief in some Eastern religions, such as Tibetan Buddhism, that people can create and shape "thought-forms" that take on a spirit-realm life of their own as animals, mythological creatures, or other people."

From Living Library in 2015: "Still other soulbonders deliberately set out to create a soulbond (which often overlaps to some degree with tulpamancy, the practice of deliberately creating new consciousnesses as mental companions)"

So like there is a known overlap, but I couldn't give you anything super insightful on that.

Not inherently, no. This personal essay from Soul Whispers earliest archived in 2004 points out how complicated soulbond theories are, acknowledges psychological theories ("One theory that once used to be popular, and probably originated from the old Multiple Personality Disorder idea (or else was just suggested because it seems simple and obvious), is that a SoulBond is just you personifying a part of you which you refuse to acknowledge or which might need an outlet"). While it acknowledges the multiverse theory, it also concludes with an imaginary-created world turned real theory against the multiverse theory.

This essay from 2000 also highlights the early writer/muse focus that the community has.

The spiritual-focused view was popularized by From Fiction. I don't have a source beyond "system joined the soulbonding community in 2016", but if you look up anything from them, it is very spirituality/multi-verse focused, and that can also be seen with their fictionkin stuff.

If you want a newer example, Living Library's site from 2015 directly acknowledges this: "Some soulbonders see soulbonding in a psychological light, whether by considering their soulbonds aspects of their own personality or as conscious psychological entities like themselves."

Also from experience, some of it came from other systems seeing the term and assuming soul = spiritual.

You can see the above essays and sources to see that that's not a universal view that all soulbonders have. Actually a few of those acknowledge the view that soulbonds might be a part of the host.

Though that is true that soulbonds can be anything!

This is another yes and no thing. If you're coming at this from a strictly multiverse view, yeah, but again not all soulbonders view it like that.

It can also get a little muddy if you have a soulbond who doesn't really acknowledge you as a headmate (i.e. seeing you as just a headvoice on their end).

From what I've seen personally, the divination thing is relatively new in the community, and I think came from the overlap with reality shifting and that bringing in more spiritual beliefs? At least looking through the LiveJournal archive I couldn't find jack shit for divination and soulbonding.

Interestingly I also see this a lot more with the self shipping overlap, which seems to be reinforced by the StrawPage including links for that, but I don't know anything about self shipping culture or yumeship.

Likewise this is genuinely the first time I've seen it compared to deity worship.

I have seen it compared to pop culture paganism sometimes, but from our experiences having some spiritual soulbonds and pop culture deities... not really? I can kind of see it though? But I wouldn't say it as a universal thing. Cool if you experience it like that though!

Anyway all that aside, the only other terms they have being like self shipping focused is a little annoying, especially since soulbonding actually does have a lot of interesting terms that's developed within it

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Disgusting post. A lack of empathy js NOT a lack of morals. Stop armchair diagnosing.

Serious suggestion. If you have no empathy for endogenic systems, you may want to get yourself evaluated for a cluster b disorder. The way anti endos immediately resort to disparaging comments and looking down on endogenics without citing any legitimate or logical reason... It feels like they're just playing a "my trauma was THE WORST and no one has ever suffered the way I suffer" game to make themselves feel somehow superior or more valid. It really does come off as hierarchal thinking, and the overlap between anti endogenics and narcissism is becoming fairly noticeable. Which makes sense since pwnpd easily get trapped in that thought pattern, and I imagine there's plenty of overlap between did and cluster b in general considering both result from excessive trauma.

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Not syscourse but a Deaf Culture question (I assume you are Deaf given you’ve spoken on the issue — if you are not feel free to disregard) - and sorry if it’s a dumb one lol.

So I don’t know if you saw my brief reply to the amity situation where I very briefly explained the whole gorillas don’t understand sign in any capacity at all thing (I do genuinely recommend the video I linked, I don’t remember if it had subtitles though) but as I mentioned in that post, I often refer to myself as Deaf adjacent when discussing related topics / issues (when relevant obviously I don’t just go around announcing it) because I have multiple Deaf friends and Family members and have been involved at least in passing with the community for going on 4 years now. I’m also “conversational” in ASL if that changes anything.

Is this okay in your opinion? I would ask my friends/family but obviously they like.. like me, so they’re a little biased here lol. If not, what should I say instead?

I by no means use that label to talk over people, just to sort of explain why I know as much as I do so that people don’t just assume I’m just Saying Things to say them (as people on the internet are one to do)

And obviously I know you’re not the magical arbiter of Deafness but you are an unbiased third party for my question haha

Have a lovely night!

(Did you know you can’t italicize things in asks? Because I didn’t until just now)

Hello! I'm sorry it took so long to get to this, I wanted to give it my full attention.

I'd like to clarify that we are NOT Deaf. We grew up with and have many connections with the Deaf community, but the body is hearing. But that's part of why I commented: Sign Languages aren't just for the Deaf. There are many, many reasons to sign.

In our personal experience, our mother raised us on it because, at the time, she was studying to be an interpreter. ASL is as much a native language for us as English (although we've lost some fluency because it's hard to practice without other people). Eventually my youngest sibling was born. He has Down's Syndrome and was fully nonverbal until around 7-8 so it was used daily in our family (along with AAC) to communicate with him (and each other). Even later, after we discovered the system, we had a mute alter who needed ASL to communicate whenever he fronted.

With this in mind I unfortunately can't answer your question, I apologize! My immediate knee-jerk reaction was "that sounds fine" but personally I'd use it to quickly describe my pretty severe auditory processing disorder instead ^^; I'm sorry I can't help but if you ever find an answer, I'd genuinely like to know! I'll toss a few Deaf tags in there in case anyone in the community is willing to answer. I also didn't know you can't italicize in asks. That feels like a tumblr crime :(

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Alright this is the ONLY thing I'm going to say about the BAH drama that is apparently STILL going on. It all boils down to this:

YOU are responsible to curate YOUR own internet experiences. It is ONLY your responsibility and NO ONE ELSE'S.

It is no one's job but yours to make sure that your internet experience is as safe as it can be for you. No one else. We are not your parents. We are not your therapist or doctor. It's not our problem, frankly. Persecutors will find a way to harm the system regardless of what's out there and what you come across. Trust me, we've been there.

Additionally, complaining that tumblr isn't a safe space is completely laughable. It's the piss on the poor site. There are porn bots and pity scams galore. This place was NEVER safe. It is YOUR job to curate your experience and block blogs that may harm you. It is ALSO your responsibility to understand that you WILL be triggered at one point or another and it is ALSO your responsibility to put plans in place to make sure you can cope and recover to the best of your ability.

Stop pushing the idea that we are all responsible for everyone else's mental health and trauma recovery. We're not. We're all here struggling to survive and healing from our horrors. Stop putting YOUR horrors on the rest of us, we're dealing with our own.

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Sorry? Do you judge queers by the radqueers? Why are you comparing endos to transCDD people? Those are two entirely different cultures. No, the vast majority don’t want a CDD. You don’t judge communities by their worst members.

If you have proof saying you can only have e a CDD through trauma, then I’d be happy to see it. But I’ve been looking for years and have yet to find any. Please keep in mind that linking anything about CDDs without mentioning SPECIFICALLY that you CANNOT be a system of any kind without childhood-specific trauma, is not an actual source.

hi hi !! saw ur post on endos and just felt it was important to note that endos don’t ‘want a cdd’, being endogenic simply means your plurality formed for reasons OTHER than trauma, nor do many endos claim to have the disorder (those who do are extremely rare even and ARE harmful, i agree on that point). i respect your opinion but i just wanted to put my two cents in :-) this is entirely lighthearted btw, just a super friendly reminder !!

(also, side note, but plurality is technically a SYMPTOM of the disorder, not the whole disorder itself, so plurality outside of trauma disorders IS possible and has happened !)

we hope u have a lovely day !! again this entire anon is meant to be lighthearted, no hard feelings or aggression is intended nor am i trying to change your view at all, just some things that you might’ve gotten wrong :-) /gen

you cannot be a system without trauma. you are entirely missing the point. I have literally seen endos who are "transDID" and want CDDs, so that is also incorrect.

"plurality outside of a disorder" is not possible because you cannot have a system without trauma. if you have a spiritual belief that is similar to being a system, that's fine, but steer clear of -genic labels because those are for systems; and half of them aren't valid due to it not being possible to be a system without trauma. spiritual 'systems' are certainly a phenomenon, but they aren't systems. they need to pick a new term.

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Incredible how they don’t even call them alters.

Endos: ‘We don’t claim to have a DID/OSDD we just have alters like you as a symptom.’

Yes… a symptom of…. go on, I’ll let you guess.

[syscourse-shmiscourse]

I wonder if Sophie is going to go to a No Kings protest and put her money where her mouth is.

I’d love to encourage her to go but she’ll probably just stay home and keep pushing that those of us who disagree with her are Nazi apologists even as we’re being directly threatened.

Oh well. I’ll actually go protest fascism and help protect my community. Fight for our rights and whatnot. Y’know. Real activism 💛

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"Alters aren't their own people they're all just parts of you, alters are you!!!"

If you want to see your own alters that way, that's fine. But for fucks stake, stop pushing it onto every other system. Stop acting like it's inherently bad for any other system to view their alters as people rather than 'fragments of ourselves'.

Me wanting to be seen as my own person, and other alters in my system wanting to be seen as their own people? It isn't about you. It is not saying anything about you, or the way you see yourself and your disorder. It isn't even a commentary on how CDDs work in general- I am aware of how they work. This is about my sense of self and personhood, my systems senses of self and personhood. This is about viewing our system in the way that is BEST FOR US. That I have already worked through with a therapist to figure out it is what works to minimize dissociation for us the most.

Stop getting into complete strangers business and commenting on how they handle their own fucking disorder just because you have the same or a similar disorder.

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I brought it up because it was a relevant comparison to your seemingly life-long condemnation and how it made no sense when you were saying the opposite about another point you were making. They conflicted, hence the comparison.

Meanwhile bringing things up that have zero comparison, like saying no one should be expected to put up with persecutor abuse, had absolutely nothing to do with the situation that I could try and find. If you'd like to explain why things like that were brought up and how it compares to the original conversation, I would be happy to listen. But it came across as trying to put words in my mouth and muddle up the points of the original points I had made.

Also stop trying to pull educational rank. I've been studying neuroscience for years. I know what constitutes real information and what is pseudoscience and misinformation is and judging by our ages, I've been studying for at least five more years than you, if not ten. Pulling rank to try to make yourself seem smarter than the other side is a bad look and only serves to make you seem pretentious. A lot of big syscoursers have direct connections to CDD experts including Colin Ross. Lots of us know what we're talking about and what we WANT is civil conversation for common ground, not reactionary bullshit.

Heyyy I think it's that time where it's important to discuss the nuanced conversation around DID/OSDD systems and taking accountability.

The kind of behaviors I'm going to discuss are more prevalent in faker communities. I've never seen an actually diagnosed system that's in therapy behave this way. If you find yourself being bothered by this, look inward.

And before I start this - a healthy reminder that your alters are fragments of yourself. It is your brain breaking off pieces of your individuality as a defense mechanism in response to trauma. You may have introjects of characters from media, literature, etc - but those introjects only stem as far as the basis of their formation - what connects them to your individuality as a person in regards to trauma. Your alters are still parts of you - they are still you.

Just like in almost every space online, there is an issue with grooming and abusive/predatory behavior. One thing I've noticed is that it gets swept under the rug a lot more in mental health communities, especially DID/OSDD spaces.

The common excuse being, "It wasn't me! It was my alter! I had no control over it!"

Like it or not, you as the "host" are still responsible. You will still be held accountable.

Your alters are still parts of you on the basis of trauma, and the excuse of "I groomed/sexually abused/physically abused another person because it was a trauma response" still does not apply or justify the act of such.

The court of law will not care about your alters either. You'll either get convicted or be forced to take an insanity plea, and having DID/OSDD does not make you "insane" - that's a stereotype that many real systems try and stray away from.

While it is true that there are differences in amnesia between DID and OSDD, as well as the amount of amnesia being somewhat of a spectrum depending on the individual who experiences it - amnesia is also not an excuse to evade accountability.

"I can't remember it!" Congratulations, you're still responsible if you hurt another person, and "not remembering" doesn't erase the hurt caused. Buck up and start making amends.

I hate to break this to you, but you can't fully separate yourself from your alters because alters are not individual beings. They are essentially fragments of yourself that have been compartmentalized.

Let's use Touya Todoroki from My Hero Academia as an example, an arsonist villain. A system may develop an introject of him based on a similarity around abandonment trauma (his childhood plotline) if the person was experiencing trauma around the same time they were consuming media of him - because remember - alters are formed based on trauma - DID/OSDD is trauma based.

Now, if that Touya alter started beating on people while fronting, the system doesn't get to use the excuse of, "Well, he's a villain!! It's not my fault he's hurting people!"

Because that alter was formed on the basis of a connection around abandonment trauma, not his villainous tendencies. Any kind of physically abusive habits "he" is displaying while fronting is simply because the "host" of the system shares that part - your alters are not fully individualized or independent. If your alters are abusive or pedatory, YOU are abusive or predatory.

This is why I always have to roll my eyes when people start talking about "source memories" that span beyond the alters reason for existing. That Touya alter isn't going to "remember" his little interactions with Hawks, Spinner, Shigaraki, none of that - because that isn't the reason for his existence - the reason for his existence being abandonment trauma that connects to the systems trauma. Everything else is just the system using their imagination.

You have to take accountability when you fuck up, it doesn't matter if you're a system or not. The people who believe that they can escape accountability for causing harm to others simply because, "my alter did it, not me," - and I say this with my whole chest, are not systems, and are only contributing to the harmful misinformation surrounding the debilitating disorder that is DID/OSDD.