#(even if i disagreed on our kotoko verdict)

[kaisturntoshine]

Ranking the Milgram characters based on how much I think their T2 verdict will come back to bite us

Disclaimer (1): Spoilers for the first two trials of the Milgram project.

Disclaimer (2): This is not me necessarilly disagreeing with the verdicts; a lot of things still remain unclear, so it is natural we voted a certain way. Still, the writers have made their intention of screwing us over loud and clear, so I am willing to assume the worst.

10. Shidou: Innocent

I am a little worried that by having us affirm his belief that he should be kept alive for the sake of others we are giving him a saviour complex, but honestly it couldn't be helped. Voting him guilty, taking into consideration the prospect of injury amongst the prisoners, would not be the way to go.

9. Kazui: Innocent

Alright, I am still a bit suspicious of the old man, but similarly to Shidou we need for him not to be constrained... probably. Frankly, I cannot perceive a way in which affirming his beliefs will have a great negative impact on the prison's environment.

8. Mahiru: Innonent

Though the logistics of her crime have remained unclear, it is heavily implied that she was inadvertedly toxic towards her partner, which lead to his suicide. Whilst I do not think she will act out of malice, since she has shown a tendency to be obsessive in her relationships, I have to account for the possibility that she will form a toxic bond with one of the prisoner of even Es (though considering the fact that something simiar already happened between Haruka and Muu, I am wondering how likely it is).

7. Yuno: Innocent

This is probably my most "unbased" judgement, since it mainly has to do with the fact that Yuno hasn't been very involved in the plot and the changes happening in the prison's environment. Therefore, the writers are more likely to utilize her in some (most likely destructive) way.

6. Fuuta: Innocent

The reason I've ranked him relatively low mainly stems from the fact that I don't think his verdict is the main factor contributing to his possible derailment (I am referring to the possibility of him adopting Amane's religious beliefs and practices, supported by the recent timelines). (Perhaps Amane will try to exact her "revenge" on Shidou through Fuuta).

Again, I recognize that I am going with a "worst case scenario". It is possible that this is not the case, since Fuuta has been shown to appreciate Shidou's medical care of him, worry about Mahiru's well-being and, at the end of the day, remains injured.

5. Mikoto: Innocent

(Halfway, huh?) The fact that MIkoto (Boku) is actually the one being judged by Milgram, as well as the implication of there being a third alter, makes me uneasy... However, I doubt that any of the alters will turn on the participants and us voting him innocent might just be our ticket to the truth.

Also I was really having trouble placing him.

4. Haruka: Guilty

He is a highly unstable individual and we are only putting oil in the fire (understandably, though). Yet I don't think he'd go after the other participants, seeing as he thinks of them highly (source: second trial interogattion questions) and has been prown to attack only those he deems weaker for empowerment. He appears to be highly self-destructive though, so maybe being monitored will help protect himself from his reaction to:

3. Muu: Guilty

Soley because of what this might mean for Haruka (disclaimer: I don't think any of the participants will die in the interlude between the two trials, but still) and because she, too, is an unstable individual.

2. Kotoko: Guilty

Hear me out, okay?! I-I just have a feeling this is what the writers wanted us to do, which is never (?) a good thing! My gut is telling me that be restrained won't stop her...

1. Amane: Innocent

I was actually really surprised when I saw this result, even though it's what I probably would have picked. It was really a double-edged sword, I feel as though the vote was only a matter of choosing which way we'd be cut. This girl is definitely going to do something and it's not going to be pretty.

TLDR; We were always doomed.

[fuutaprotectionsquad]

you guys ever think about how. how in the beginning of Milgram, Jackalope was like "you can vote however you want, you can vote someone innocent just because you think they're pretty. it doesn't matter." And despite how hard we (or atleast me, but i imagine most of us) try to vote objectively and not succumb to the bias he expects of us, we do. Our votes are all biased because fundamentally, law and sin itself is built off of emotion, which is the root of bias.

And thats what causes such a debate in the Milgram fandom over verdicts: bc even though we think we're thinking logically, we're not, we are biased. Our biases don't overlap, though, and thats why we can't agree with each other. And on top of that, we are rigid in our biases. We are stubborn, we refuse to see subjective things from other points of view, because we can't. Opinions are hard as fuck to change.

Hence why the Amane debate, despite infuriating me, is subsequently my favorite. Neither side is right or wrong, no matter how much I think I'm right or other ppl think they're right. Its subjective what age is too young to be held accountable for your crimes, its subjective whether or not you should be blamed for the abusive ideologies you were raised under. And I could rant all day about why I believe one thing or the other, and I can get really mad at people who disagree, but its subjective. Just as the sole fact that Amane's cult teaching are bad is also subjective. Murder being bad is subjective.

People trying to change the prisoners' opinions using their verdicts is biased just as voting them based on our own opinions is also biased. We are trying to force our own beliefs and opinions on prisoners who have different ideas of whats right and wrong.

Es cannot see any of this. Most of the prisoners do. We see it mostly with Yuno, Fuuta, Amane and Kotoko, who criticize/take advantage of Es' god complex. Meanwhile, Haruka and Mahiru invite Es to decide for them (i think haruka does??? i dont fully remember). Muu and Shidou are both initially opposed to it, but become more willing to follow Es' verdicts because it benefits them. Even though Shidou's a little hesitant to see himself as innocent, he starts to. Kazui attributes Es' verdicts to a lack of knowledge on his situation, with the ideology that only his opinion on it matters, because he's the only one who knows the full story. Mikoto's kinda just confused (understandably). And don't ask about John idr.

Anyway I could rant for hours about how the specific prisoners act towards Es in regards to their verdicts + milgram fans' voting ideology + the philosophical undertones of milgram. Technically i did cuz this took 2 hours to write. But. maybe another day.

[good-beanswrites]

I’m thinking about the angst of the restraints headcanon again. There’s the two with the least physically violent crimes, and they rank relatively low in strength. There’s the child who was violent but had to be really crafty about it; she’s the weakest of all of them. And the most dangerous of the guilty prisoners cannot be restrained.

This makes me so emotional!!! All three are the smallest of their circles. Two of them are extremely ordinary people who have never experienced/expressed physical violence before. One hadn't even fathomed the idea of someone dying until they actually did. And yet, they're subjected to the type of restraints you'd expect to see on someone who is uncontrollably violent. The fact that prisoners who committed very gruesome murders can walk free (including Mikoto) just adds insult to injury. I still couldn't everything into words, but here's a Mahiru-centric drabble featuring the same thoughts. It takes place after T1 closes but before the attacks.

“Where are our rights?”

Fuuta’s shout caused Mahiru to wince. She perched on her bedding, watching the two prisoners she’d invited to her cell. It hadn’t been the fun kind of invitation, though. Back in school, she always wanted to have parties and dates back at her place. Moving to the city, she imagined what it would be like to make university friends and take them back home with her to talk, eat, and have fun. 

Sitting in her dim gray cell with Fuuta and Amane, all of them held fast by complex sets of restraints, was not what she’d had in mind.

Amane knelt in the corner. Her arms were crossed, as if pouting, though the opposite was true. A moment ago her eyes had lowered in prayer, but it was difficult to find any peace of mind now. Fuuta snapped and shouted as he paced the length of the cell bars. They were unlocked, but like the others, he didn’t feel like being out in front of everyone. He’d give his uniform a violent jerk every now and then, but it didn’t do any good. Between his strides and growls, he made Mahiru think of those poor wild animals they keep at the circus.

“Take it easy, Fuuta.” She mustered up a smile. “Come rest with us.”

“I can’t believe you two. You’re just gonna sit here and take it? I didn’t do a fucking thing! They’re acting like I’m some big danger to society,” he yanked his arms again, to no avail. “All I did was type some things onto a screen. I’m not gonna go around stabbing anyone or anything. And you, you didn’t hurt anyone either!”

He nodded his head to Mahiru. If her arms weren’t already folded over her chest, she would have hugged herself anyway. 

“Well… I did hurt him in the end… I broke his heart badly enough that… I mean, he…”

Fuuta made a disgusted sound. “That’s all stupid romance stuff. I’m saying, you never stabbed him. Never strangled him. Never poisoned his food, or –”

“Oh god, no! How horrible…”

“Exactly! From what we’ve heard, it sounds like Haruka killed someone with his bare hands. I think Muu had a knife or something. Shidou had a whole arsenal of grisly doctor tools. Kotoko has openly talked about how she beat that guy to death. Why are they allowed to walk free while we’re tied down like wild animals?”

Mahiru was glad she hadn’t mentioned the circus.

“And Amane! It’s not like she did anything violent, and here she is!”

“That is not true.”

Both paused as Amane spoke up for the first time. 

“Eh?”

“While I disagree with my verdict, the restraints make sense.” The others still stared blankly. As matter-of-fact as always, she continued. “I killed with my own hands. I used the amount of force I was instructed to. Just as the sinner fears the wrath of heaven, I can understand how the godless warden would fear my justice.”

Fuuta’s passion wavered, but Mahiru could feel her heart ache for the girl. “Oh Amane… I had no idea. To be pushed to the point of violence at your age…”

“I am not to be pitied. As I said, I am dangerous, and proud to be. I am doing god’s work. All heroes must be dangerous.”

Fuuta grunted, but said nothing. Mahiru gave her a gentle smile. “It’s not pity. Even if you were dangerous, it’s horrible to restrain someone like you. You’ve already had to brave so much, as the smallest of the bunch.”

She looked between the two. A sad laugh escaped her. “Now that I think of it, I guess we’re all the smallest here, hm? Aside from maybe Muu, we don’t have much height or strength on the others…”

“That’s what I’ve been saying!” Fuuta cried. “The fuck do they think we’re going to do?” Mahiru was just glad he’d focused on that rather than the fact she’d just called him weak. 

Voices raised in conversation down the hallway. Mikoto’s laugh echoed faintly into the cell.  

It warmed Mahiru to hear. Things had been so hard on him here. Though it had been frightening to hear him shouting at the restraints til his voice was raw – well, it wasn’t him shouting – it had been a relief when he appeared free and relaxed the following day. He seemed sheepish that he wasn’t able to help the others, having no memory of his escape. Mahiru just kept telling him how happy she was for him.

Fuuta didn’t share in the sentiment. “Meanwhile, Mikoto gets to stroll around free, and he beat the shit out of Es! He could snap and kill any one of us here, and they don’t even give a damn. But ooohhh, god forbid the guy who’s never been violent a day in his life is allowed to use his own two hands!”

The harshness of his voice wasn’t doing his argument many favors. Still, his words were beginning to get through to Mahiru. 

She’d worked so hard to be a model citizen. She was supposed to have a perfect life. She could cook, clean, sew, and take care of children. She did herself up every day; she was never a slob or a slut. She was generous to everyone she met. She showered the world around her in love. Wasn’t it unfair that her hands were tied like some common criminal? What was all that effort for – being patient when people upset her, being kind even when she disagreed with someone, all of that – if she was going to end up in the same place as someone who had stabbed another out of sheer malice?

Amane didn’t seem to be whirling with the same doubts. She closed her eyes once more. “It is simply a trial from heaven. We may be small, but all of us have an internal strength that will carry us through the ordeal.”

“I don’t think it’s any sort of religious thing, but you’re right,” Fuuta puffed his chest out. “Trials like this only make people stronger!” 

“Do you think so?” Mahiru wasn’t sure if she was asking either of them or just musing to herself. It was a nice thought. This was all part of destiny, something meant to be that would make her stronger in the end. 

But she wasn’t so sure she believed in destiny anymore. It hadn’t quite worked out the first time. 

“Hell yeah!” Fuuta must have assumed she was in fact asking him. He gave a wide, toothy grin. “It’s not like we can get any weaker, right? The warden better watch out next trial – they’ve got a big storm coming!”

[mukuberry]

It's fun that half (maybe more) of the prisoners have basically already received judgements for their sins before coming to Milgram, and i love how it's reflected in their behaviour

Haruka, Fuuta and Muu have all be unforgiven by the people around them (Haruka's mother, Fuuta's online friends and Muu's classmates) and it's clear in their behaviour. All 3 have dealt with extreme shame since the moment they arrived in Milgram.

Haruka and Muu were forgiven by us and because of that they're acting overly confident and only listening to eachother. They both deal with clear guilt from both their murders and the rejection they received and now that we've forgiven them they're desperately burying that guilt and blocking out everyone that disagrees (esp seen in Haruka considering Es to be one of his 'mothers' before changing his mind when Es starting criticising his actions)

Fuuta on the other hand was voted unforgiven by both the people she trusted and us, and its so obviously eating away at her. Since no one is defending her, she defends herself as aggressively she can, lashing out, denying her involvement, putting the blame on others, and comparing her actions to others who have done worse.

Amane and Kotoko, however, were voted innocent by the people in their lives. Both show dependence on those people even when inside Milgram and as with pretty much every character (except Yuno ig good for her) have guilt over their crimes, but they've effectively suppressed it due to the support given.

Kotoko was forgiven by us, and because of that she isn't talking about the people who understand what she's doing as much, and is using Es as a replacement for them now. It's very clear in Deep Cover that she needs us to keep giving her that forgiveness, just as she constantly looked for reassurance in her old allies.

Amane was voted unforgiven by us, and has completely fallen back onto her cults endorsement for support. Without us to forgive her she's lost her individuality and acts as if she was the cult itself, using their violent ways to get us to do what she wants and even referring to herself as the cult itself instead of as herself (using we instead of i/me).

Obviously their own personalities and pasts outside of their judgements play into this, but its fun seeing how their reactions to our verdicts of their crimes mix with their first judgement by people on the outside. You could also argue that Shidou was unforgiven by the flower person dying after all the people he killed, and I'm sure theres other too but I'll just leave it at that for now :)

[thinkin-bout-milgram]

More Haruka Verdict Thoughts

Sorry, I’m going to be insufferable for a while here while I’m trying to figure out my whole verdict thoughts.

T/W: mentions of suicide, serial killers

I’m still torn on the verdict. I thought I’d landed solidly on innocent, but I was talking to some people in youtube comments, and now I’m not so sure. 

On the one hand, I do believe that voting him innocent is the safest vote in terms of keeping people alive through the second trial. It’s more predictable, and it doesn’t risk harming his safe space or fragile mindset. 

However... I feel like if we vote him innocent here in the second round, we’ll be locking him into a guilty verdict for the third round. Even if I do forgive him emotionally, I don’t know that I could, in good conscience, clear him with an innocent verdict. Haruka shows, like, all the signs of a young serial killer, so I don’t think we can really release him into the wild without doing something about it first. Maybe a guilty verdict would be what he needs to correct his path.

But, if I’m right that he’s at risk of committing suicide if we give him a guilty verdict, then it doesn’t really matter, does it? I’d rather keep the door open for an innocent verdict than guarantee his death. In which case, I’d pick the safer option.

But it’s not a guarantee that we lose him if we vote him guilty. That’s just a theory. At the same time, we don’t know that it’s a guarantee that we can’t help fix his mindset if we vote him innocent. And, even if we vote him guilty, and even if he survives this round, we don’t know that we’ll be able to redeem him in the end. In that case, wouldn’t a guilty verdict be needless suffering?

Would Haruka even be able to succeed at a suicide attempt? We don’t know exactly how the restraining works. If he’s restrained enough that he couldn’t actually hurt himself, but he was still emotionally suicidal and had to sit through it, would that change my verdict, or would it just be cruel? 

I guess the big problem is, either way, we’re not going to know what would have happened on the other path. If we vote guilty and he commits suicide, we won’t even know what happens in the third trial. If we vote him innocent and his behavior and outlook opens and we have to vote him guilty in the end, we’ll never know if we could have changed the result by flipping his vote, if he could’ve been helped. Whatever happens, the result is going to haunt me if anything happens that feels like we got it wrong. And, assuming our results aren’t flawless, that’s going to happen.

Sorry for the rambling, this vote’s just making me think a lot.

-Venus