#BB!Snowtuft

[bonefall]

are you doing anything with snowtuft in your rewrite? hes so silly to me

Previously I was actually not going to do anything with him to wait out on the writers giving him more backstory, but since I'm now diverging in response to their C&D of Little Dragon Studios...

I'm thinking of putting him sometime during the Crusade Era, under Houndstar. He was a vicious and bloodthirsty warrior, happy to take part in the raids on Chelford. His cruelty went a step beyond his era; he was a kit-killer.

He was stopped after a mother and 2 kits were dead; the third was "saved" and kitnapped.

Houndstar didn't know what to do about this. Killing children like that really made the cruelty apparent-- but they were outsider kits, not clanborn. The code doesn't apply to those who don't live by it... but logical answers don't really apply here, when the action is so obviously and chillingly evil.

Snowtuft couldn't be exiled. And he couldn't blend back into ShadowClan either. He became a pariah and had to live many years with many of his Clanmates sickened by him, the one surviving kitten always a tail length away. He, too, became ashamed of himself.

StarClan has a thing about kittenkillers, and wouldn't have let him in even if he hadn't seen himself out. He walked the Dark Forest by choice, trying to forget what he'd done.

[warriors-official-art]

Title: The Place of No Stars

Arc: The Broken Code

Country: China

Type: full cover art

Characters: Ashfur, Snowtuft

Artist:   刘野  Liu Ye

Source: https://warriors.huijiwiki.com/wiki/Category:%E5%88%98%E9%87%8E%E7%BB%98%E5%88%B6%E7%9A%84%E5%9B%BE%E7%89%87

[who-killed-the-snails]

ofc bramblestar made snowtuft the bait in the plan...god snowtuft bb stay safe ok ik your already fading n shit but like..shi still risky

[bonefall]

You mentioned that each Clan's dogwhistles sound and look a little different-- would you be willing to elaborate/give some examples?

WindClan

NEVER talks openly about their beliefs and is the best example of Thistle Law doublespeak. Tigerstar and Brokenstar are unpopular for obvious reasons, and the Clan as a whole leans towards Soft Traditionalism. On one side of their mouth, they'll talk about how they won Heatherstar's Campaign and how they rightfully conquered that land, but then turn around and frame the turn of the war as ShadowClan's underhanded snakery (in Clanmew it's literally "adderness").

"Fear" is a lot more common in their rhetoric. Fear of outsiders diluting their Clan, fear of wasting time and prey, fear of having things taken and stolen. The WindClan Massacre is invoked a LOT, because it's useful for making cats too emotional to think straight.

Here, we'll walk through BB!Mudclaw as an example. I'm going to mark every weasel word with an asterisk, let's see if you can figure out what's weird with it before the end.

Mudclaw speaks to Tallstar, claiming that the trading with BloodClan is opening up WindClan to being betrayed. "Scourge turned* on Tigerstar in the end, how can he be trusted now*? There was bounty for a while, but leafbare is coming* and we already* have so many mouths to feed. Snapper and Leo* arrived and now we're having troubles with the humans*. I'm just worried, I never want to lose so many Clanmates ever again*."

Scourge was acting in self defense

The trading is part of filling the deal that Tigerstar did not intend to honor

Starvation rhetoric

Sudden pivot to exclusionary language, Us vs Them

Refusal to use new names

Implying it's their fault

Massacre allusion

ShadowClan

Much more openly violent. A LOT of talk of glory, you could use these guys as a social case study. Crusades, winning the war with WindClan, the beauty of TigerClan, re-framing Ripplestar not as someone who wanted to help SkyClan but as a simple conqueror. They have lots of moments to invoke from their Great History.

The cost of that violence is downplayed. Like the Snowtuft example, they won't bring up the mother and children he slaughtered, just boast about their glorious ancestors fighting in the Crusades. They won't mention how they ripped kittens out of their nests, just how they bolstered ShadowClan's numbers. They'll frame the WindClan massacre as a final battle they triumphed over, leaving out how they ambushed and poisoned elders and apprentices.

RiverClan

"Glory talk" is downplayed in RiverClan, probably because they didn't actually take part in the Crusades. Instead, they focus on negative traits of mixed-blood cats (which they made up), accuse other Clans of being underhanded, and demand to be "heard."

And what THAT means is that they want to be able to derail any conversation they want. Interruptions of clanwide discussions, dismissing critique of Tigerstar and co, intentionally saying things that are divisive to cause fighting. They will prevent ANYTHING from being done unless it's the thing THEY want to happen.

I actually write Thistle Law supporters in RiverClan to be like... incredibly annoying. They don't say what they mean, they bring the Clan to a screeching halt, they literally dismiss the lesson of TigerClan. You cannot pin them down, they never admit to anything, you will only waste your time talking to them.

They also act on their bigotry in ways that are 'deniable'. Reedwhisker fell into the water? Must have been his thick ThunderClan blood pooling in his paws. A RiverClan cat should be able to pull themselves out. Of course you're listened to, Mistyfoot, you're deputy after all, what more do you want? Gaslighting. Making you doubt your own senses towards your unfair treatment.

ThunderClan

A sort of 'mix' of ShadowClan and WindClan tactics. ThunderClan is THE Fire Alone Clan, you could count the Thistle Law supporters and the Hard Traditionalists on one hand, but has a battle-centric history they tend to tap into.

Listen for "glory," talk about 'avoiding humiliation,' starvation rhetoric. ThunderClan has an absolute bounty with their forested territory, that last one is almost always code for wanting to exclude or eliminate people like Daisy and Purdy.

When Thornclaw became deputy under Bramblestar, he was very, very careful about his escalations, and mostly focused on manipulating Bramble himself. He was VERY aware that the Clan wouldn't take another Mixed Clan Meeting like the stunt he pulled in TNP.

Even the impostor in TBC overplayed his hand, the rebellion was born out of ThunderClan itself.

[bonefall]

I know in BB StarClan cats over time as they become remembered become more distant from their original life and more a spirit distanced from normal cat concerns and experience of the world, but when you talk about DF cats that doesn't seem to be the case, even the older DF cats like Cloudberry and Ryewhisker basically act like normal cats (except for Snowtuft losing his memory). If this doesn't occur for the Dark Forest, why? Would some cats actually prefer the DF to StarClan since they are scared of losing their former selves when they die (in which case it wouldn't serve as a very effective punishment/deterrent from StarClan's perspective...)

It's something I took from Christian theology that always stuck with me. The way that because Heaven is a collective and separation from God is a punishment, logically, with time you start to become more "one" with it. In some doctrines, you can't feel sinful human emotions like greed or pride if you're accepted into Heaven; meanwhile in Hell you're the exact same person you were in life.

Hell is other people, basically.

In BB, the reason this happens is because there's more power to be had in StarClan. Thunderstar isn't really himself anymore, because generations of cats have been filling him with their ideas of justice along with their prayers. It's kind of like being a quilt; the original square is the core of this new blanket, but eventually... the amount of quilt that is Not You begins to outweigh You.

Same happened to the Four Gods. One Eye is actually WILDLY different from who he was in life. It happens with all Pantheon systems. Power with an unknown side effect.

The Dark Forest is different because Hells are unnatural. They don't abide by the "natural laws" of the religions in this universe. The Place of No Stars doesn't forward the same sort of multiplying force into the Demons that live there, so they're more direct, but "diet" versions of StarClan Angels.

Undiluted, you could say. That's why their pulsars don't get warped with time, no matter how old they are.

Anyway, no, this is on such a huge and massive timescale that it doesn't typically influence a spirit's decision-making. We're talking about literal generations, the equivalent of hundreds of years. Would you be so afraid of not being the person you were at 10 years old, enough that you'd leave all your friends, family, and power behind?

That's how they see it. It's change.

Besides. Most don't even get that strong. Typically, a spirit fades after they're no longer remembered and no longer carrying strong emotion, and even the Dark Forest won't stop that.

(It just happens to be that most cats who go to the Dark Forest end up going there for quite emotional reasons.)

(and also BB!Snowtuft isn't going to be magically forgetting anything, he just doesn't LIKE to think or talk about it)

[bonefall]

idk if we can request bb character summaries but. jay, the old lady who runs a gang in tallstar's revenge?

I'm not sure where I'm going with Jay.

A lot of the outside group cats are overhauled, for the sake of making BloodClan an actual culture that's existed for a long time. Jay seems to be some kind of respected elder in TR and Yellowfang’s Secret, which I could translate into having her be someone who ranks high.

But, I already chose one of her recurring subordinates, Pixie, to become Puffballpad. The surviving kitten from Snowtuft's slaughter, the horrific event that ended ShadowClan's involvement in the Crusades.

So the thing that makes the most sense is having Jay be the mother (or guardian) of Pixie and Marmalade, and then meet her end there. Though she is an interesting character and I would like to use her more than just the once.

Not sure yet. Maybe I'll have Pinestar meet her once when he's young and hear of her death, as a good example of the way clan culture dehumanizes outsiders and how he is able to recognize how evil this is. I could at LEAST give her a higher rank and some collar teeth in the meanwhile.

[bonefall]

What did Snowtuft do again I forgor

In-canon, we don't know. I've gone and made placeholder info for BB until we find out.

BB!Snowtuft got carried away during a Crusade and killed a mother Chelford cat, then tried to hide his mistake by killing her kittens too. He was interrupted by a shocked Clanmate, who took the last kit to be raised in ShadowClan.

The Code does not apply to outsiders, so Cedarstar wasn't sure if he could punish Snowtuft for violating the Code for Kits while not also applying the Code against Killing. Not that a leader HAS to be fair but... that's who Cedarstar is.

But ShadowClan could never forget what Snowtuft did, and it put the Crusades into a new light. Some didn't care and were excusing the death of kittens, others never saw Snowtuft the same way again now knowing what he was capable of. It's why Snowtuft doesn't want to remember it; it revealed a lot about himself, and it's not like he can ever really redeem himself for it

Unfortunately ShadowClan's reckoning didn't last very long, as the Campaign Era started a new, much more personal conflict.

[bonefall]

Can you tell us more about Blizzardwing and Holly's toxic marriage?

Sure! I'll leave the meta reasons for why I feel so strongly about the changes out of this, and just focus on the new HollyBlizzard dynamic

There is brief periods of peace in their mateship, but they're increasingly rare.

Sometimes it seems like Hollyflower is looking for reasons to take out her frustration on Blizzardwing. You can 'feel' it coming.

The kits quickly learn when things are about to get loud, and begin walking on eggshells around their parents

But, there's always a spark that sets off chaos.

Blackkit often feels like it's his fault. He'll do something 'wrong', and then Blizzard is paying for it, and as a result Blizzard makes him pay for it back.

Black dreads Blizzard's visits to the nursery, he wishes they would just stay apart because he can "handle" Holly on her own.

Flintfang and Fernshade were in the older litter, with Blackfoot slightly younger. About one year apart or so.

They were always huge reliefs to him. They would often show up just in time and whisk him away to do fun activities. They showed him how to hunt frogs. They taught him how to skin a vole. Blizzard and Holly would have left him without basic skills otherwise.

But at the end of the day, he would have to go back to the nursery.

Flint and Fern know what it's like growing up in that kind of environment, but at least they had each other you know?

Never, NEVER suggest to Holly or Blizzard that maybe they shouldn't be together. They will unite just to turn their anger onto you.

Blizzard: "She's my mate. I made a promise that I'd always be there for her. You think I'd just play a game with her love? Are you trying to tell me I'm not loyal?"

Holly: "Yeah sure we fight, but that's because I love him. I've never loved anyone else and I never will, how dare you try to drive a wedge between us!"

We're Drowning Together

Coming out of that environment, Blackfoot was a bit of a bully. He wanted to prove his worth to ShadowClan, and sometimes lashed out just to throw his weight around. He was a big boy that came out of the union of The Vicious Hollyflower and Son/Grandson-of-Snowtuft Blizzardwing, and that made a lot of people afraid of him.

That desperation, loneliness, and sadistic streak made him a favorite of the deputy Brokentail, who soon became Brokenstar. He wasn't his first deputy; but it was clear that Brokenstar was preparing him for the role by providing him lots and lots of opportunities for advancement at a young age.

But, I'm getting ahead of myself. The Holly/Blizzard dynamic has been OVERHAULED for BB.

[bonefall]

What would the BB! Broken code protagonists think of Snowtuft if they found out what he did to end up in the dark forest?

Toying with the idea that BB!Shadowsight knows. He's listened to the Educator, he knows the basic story, how Cedarstar ended the crusades because of the murder of children. He probably heard the name "Snowtuft" and his heart dropped.

But Snowtuft completely doesn't remember. He doesn't want to. If Shadowsight suggested telling him, I think Snow would freak out a little and shout at him to stop.

And at that point, Shadowsight can't do anything with this information. Beggars can't be choosers, and he's not about to walk into the War Crime Forest and start getting picky about the War Criminal who offers to help him.

[bonefall]

Forgive me if you've already done this or don't even want to, but have you ever posted a full list of all named cats that go to the df in bb?

I had one but it's outdated!! I added more cats. I've been meaning to fluff out a big delicious Dark Forest 101 post which will include an allegiance of some kind.

For you anon here let me try to remember all of my beloved demons;

Hawkfrost

Tigerstar

Pinestar (rejected by StarClan!)

Thistleclaw (left in protest of Bluestar's ascension)

Leopardfoot (followed Thistleclaw)

Adderfang (follow)

Swiftbreeze (follow)

Finchflight (follow)

(STILL ADDING MORE TO THIS CATEGORY)

Ripplestar

Spottedpelt (sis of Ripple)

Marshscar (Ripple stan)

Oakstar

Frecklewish (clouded judgement ruling)

Ravenwing (same)

Appledusk (same)

Mapleshade (murder)

Brokenstar (however, left. Currently a SkyClan ancestor)

Runningnose

Clawface

Cloudberry (conscientious objector)

Ryewhisker (mate of Cloudberry)

Morningstar (pacifist)

Shredtail (used a cat as boar bait)

Maggottail

Snowtuft (kit killing)

Silverhawk (attempted murder)

Sparrowfeather

Redwillow (died fighting for DF in Great Battle)

Applefur (same)

Thornclaw (same)

Whiskernose (same. Also arson.)

Antpelt

Ratscar (could not make up for his crimes)

Rushtooth (Blasphemy)

Houndleap (whore)

Batear (slaughtered the guy who killed his bestie)

Fenneldust (the bestie)

Vixenleap (Rebellion)

Cedarheart (Rebellion)

Nightwing (Rebellion)

Mudclaw (Rebellion)

STILL ADDING TO THIS CATEGORY. Most non-Wind rebels are DF'd

Leopardstar (Poisoned Crookedstar, did not punish surviving RiverClan rebels, Thistle Law supporter)

Sharpclaw (aided Darktail's attack on SkyClan)

Rockshade (same)

STILL ADDING TO THIS CATEGORY

Darktail

The more the merrier because I want the Dark Forest to actually stand a fighting chance against 4 entire Clans in the Great Battle. Note that many of these cats are DF'd after that fight, so the older the better.

And Featherwhisker is being considered.

[bonefall]

do you think snowtuft has any living family still alive in ShadowClan? i like the idea that his family either denounced his existance or at least did so publicly and quietly still speak of him.

I think I'm going to make Blizzardwing either his son or grandson. BB!Blizzardwing is in a very toxic, unhappy marriage with Hollyflower, and I think that fits nicely with a narrative about generational trauma.

The idea being that association to Snowtuft became radioactive. Everyone in his orbit suffered, so his children ended up becoming distant with him and cutting him out. Blizzardwing desperately wants to prove he's not like him, so he clings to his mateship with Hollyflower to show that he's loyal and loving even though it's killing him.

If Blizz ends up being his grandson due to timeline stuff, then I'll probably write it that Blizz's parent is overwhelmed with guilt from that association. They will have cut Snowtuft off, allowed them to die alone, and ended up having a distant relationship to their own kittens. Grandson-Blizz will be trying to fill a hole by staying with Holly even though it's really bad for them.