#Clearly its not confirmed but I cannot think of anybody else lol

[tatsrei]

I remember seeing here on Tumblr a post about how originally the White Lady was supposed to be dead while the Pale King was still alive (the statues in the church where WL has a crack on the head and Dryya going mad over the loss of her queen).

I can't find the post anymore but I found a cool addition:

Originally inside the White Palace you were meant to meet a "lone survivor" shuffling in the uppermost chambers. Who else could it be.

Actually I believe the final version fits better but, despite this text is very outdated, I find interesting that the PK is described as shuffling, because the more I look at his walk cycle the more I think he is dragging himself rather than slithering. The way his cloak moves is a bit of weird and I don't really know how to explain it, it does give the impression of a slither, but the general proportions make me wonder how the hell it would happen.

Whatever, I am not really sure. He just looks weird.

[iaintyourbro]

Hi! So I read the "Why I think Clerith doesn't work" post. It's a behemoth of an exchange but I'm glad I went through it! So much sense, insight and lovely politeness everywhere! It's a bit off on tangent but my takeaway is that FF7 would stay the same whether Clerith was romantic or platonic, but if Cloti wasn't romantic, the plot suffers big time. Like to the point that it would lose sense. Cloud not loving Tifa the way he does doesn't flow with the tapestry. 1/

That's not to say that Clerith relationship is unimportant but I guess to me it just drives the point further that it could only be Tifa for Cloud. OG Soldier!Cloud may or may not have had romantic feelings for Aerith and if he did, it indeed won't diminish his love for Tifa in any way. But those feelings are fake; Remake Aerith herself says this, OG Cloud himself comes to realize this. Those possible romantic feelings don't hold much substance (if any at all) post-Lifestream sequence. 2/7

It would be almost impossible for Cloud to think of Aerith romantically once he regains his true self because of Tifa and Zack. This development directly negates every moment he may have previously thought of as romantic. This development overwrites Soldier!Cloud's possible romantic interpretations as nothing more than being a decent person and a good friend. All of this tells me that to take Clerith romantically as a plot point would require some extra elbow grease 3/7

that you won't naturally find in the tapestry. To do so soundly, we would need something else that the devs didn't give us. That's not to say that Clerith being romantic is twisting canon to be what it's not, but rather it doesn't matter in the big picture. The story stands on solid ground as it does if they're platonic, and because Cloud's true love already exists in Tifa and they are ultimately endgame, then there's no need for Clerith to be romantic. 4/7

This is what I mean when I say Clerith romance would need something else, some extra elbow grease; it COULD be there but it's ultimately needless. Which in turn leads me to believe that the romantic possibility between them in OG was indeed put there purely for drama's sake and shock value. Some fans ran with that possibility mindlessly but that’s a different discussion. Bottom line is I think Clerith could either be romantic or platonic and it won't affect the plot all that much, 5/7

because the feeling that Cloud is left with as regards to Aerith is crushing guilt (which he thankfully works through in ACC and we can only assume he remembers her fondly as time goes on) while the feeling Cloud has for Tifa is abiding love, which drives his actions in the plot throughout the whole Compilation. /end LOL sorry this take is way too long but I so loved the whole exchange and it really tickled my last 2 brain cells. Thank you for that!! Stay safe and well ❤ 6/7

Uh, “why clerith doesn’t work” with the long ass ask here lol I’m so sorry to do this to you. But correcting/clarifyingone of stuff I said: Cloud and Tifa being “ultimately endgame”, I meant that they are endgame by the devs’ design. Them ending up together was intentional and not just because Aerith happened to die (just as her death was also intentional and by design). 😬 7/7 (?) lol

Hello Anon! You sent me in quite a thing, so let’s get to it! First, I’m glad you got to read through all of that. I think those types of discussions are really amazing especially when people do stay polite and do actually take other opinions into consideration. 

I agree with you - Clerith being romantic or not doesn’t really matter overall to the plot. I think the problem that comes up is how extremist CAs deal with the whole thing. Some are okay with Cloud dying to be with Aerith. Some are okay with trashing Tifa - who is like the most important person in the world to Cloud, you find out - to diminish her character. They twist, erase, and lie about canon and story. That’s where shit gets nasty. But no, it wouldn’t matter plot wise either way. 

Also I’m putting pictures in this post because they’re pretty. (The one below cracks me up.)

The relationship of those two is important. I think Aerith’s resolution is poorly interpreted because all of her lines aren’t taken in to consideration. The line “Don’t fall in love with me.” It’s bold. It insinuates something. It makes an assumption. It’s the follow up that’s more important to me... “Even if you think you have... it’s not real.” Boom. That is where it is - if you stop listening at the “L” word, this will be lost on you. This is used to foreshadow Cloud’s persona problem AND to say - the point of Aerith being seen as a romantic interest in OG was to show even more of the illusion that Cloud was under. Do I think they needed to make it romantic - no. I really don’t see it as very romantic in OG, but a lot of people disagree with me and that’s okay. Replaying it as an adult, I saw nothing substantial between those two. Early in OG, though, there’s nothing early on between him and Tifa either. Remake, uh... clearly changed that with Tifa. 

Regarding Zack and Real!Cloud’s feelings for Tifa: I cannot think that Cloud would be like “well he’s dead so...” No. True!Cloud also has been pining over Tifa for years. His entire subconscious is filled with Tifa, Tifa, Tifa. They’ve translated this underlying feeling in Remake for SOLDIER!Cloud and how he acts around and reacts to Tifa. It’s like Real!Cloud isn’t gonna let him screw up too bad... 

Most of the posts you see saying that Clerith is canon or Clerith was heavy in Remake ignore a lot of other scenes. I’ve seen all three resolution scenes. Multiple times. They’re all important. A lot of extreme shippers will not watch the scene with “the other chick” in them because it’s easier to sit in denial of it. Tifa’s resolution is the most intimate. She hugs him and he hugs her back. This is a huge development thing for Cloud. It also was confirmed that real Cloud was like “my turn” when she did that... 

Barret’s resolution scene even has a Cloti moment in it regarding Al and his flowers, which is one of the most unexpected and hilarious reactions I saw out of Cloud. Barret’s resolution also covers some history on Avalanche and he gets to talk about the crew. You hear names that you can go back and see on the darts leaderboard on your next playthrough. 

Aerith references the Highwind scene (above). The Highwind scene is the one everybody talks about when it comes to Cloud and Tifa. That and the Lifestream (I prefer the Lifestream, but Remake may... uh... make me change my mind... cuz horny jail and all that).

The one thing they did that was, to me, a huge difference from OG was push the romance envelope. So you get scenes like the train tunnel roll, that’s dripping with sexual tension. You get the scene in Tifa’s apartment if you do all of the quests (everybody should be doing ALL of the quests for ALL Chapters), you get another Cloti scene that’s tense. They have a lot of tense, slam in your face moments that I don’t know how people ignore. 

If you look at some of these moments and have no clue what this scene is or what this game is about, you’re gonna have thoughts on what’s going on here. I have thoughts and I know what happens. This is one of those “pheewwww” scenes.

None of this was in OG - they kept the romance between Cloud and Tifa pretty much so subtle you’d have to squint to see the few times it happens before the end of Disc 2. The first time Cloud really comes out and says anything, it’s this:

If you ignore Tifa and think Aerith is all there is to see, this line will come out of left field. It still somewhat feels like its out of left field considering how light Cloti is before this point, but it’s like “I don’t care what anybody else thinks of me except you.” I do remember this slamming me in the face like “where’d this come from” and that’s when the illusion starts to spiral out of control. This works perfectly on your first playthrough and then enhances your second playthrough so you can see how many weird things you can point out to foreshadow what’s going on.

Also... Cloud’s illusionary world in the first half of the game is a major plot point that can’t be ignored. Ignoring it means you stopped playing the game before you get to this point. The player starts to feel anxious like something is wrong. You start to question everything, and then you do get resolution to this later on, and I love the way they did it. 

But if you want to say Tifa isn’t a love interest, you need to throw the above scene out. Why would he care so much? 

Or this. You would need to ignore the Lifestream. All of it. 90% of it is about Tifa. The other parts are about Zack and Sephiroth. But Tifa’s in that section of his mind too, because she almost dies. 

FFVII is not a romance game. Especially not the OG. However love or romance is what drove Cloud to try to join SOLDIER, what drove Cloud to completely go ballistic when his mom is killed, his town burned down, and then he comes across an almost lifeless Tifa. 

And then... Sephiroth somehow survives this. A Buster Sword going through his skinny ass... walks out and Cloud goes after him again. 

Personally, my favorite rendition of the Cloud stabbing Sephiroth scene is Crisis Core because of the music, the way he walks in the room, and then boom. 

If they do a mashup of the two: Have him walk in the room, just showing his legs, (and it feels so fucking arrogant the way he does it ughhh) have dramatic music playing, BUT have Sephiroth turn just at the last second like he does in OG so he sees it’s a grunt right away, and then have Cloud say the above line, which they removed from CC for some reason. 

You should watch this scene and feel feelings like I do about the way he walks in there

Okay, anyway...

If Sephiroth had walked out of the reactor, he most likely would have run in to Zangan and killed him. My guess is, he would have found a way to recover from his massive would. Zangan wouldn’t have been able to get to Tifa and them, but you could say Cloud could have taken Tifa... but would he have left Zack? So many what ifs... but the point is, he legit goes nuts when he thinks Tifa is dead. 

And so Sephiroth tries this again in Remake:

And Cloud also starts to go ballistic until he sees Barret and freezes. So Sephiroth is like “alright I just need him to break not start trying to murder me yet.” 

Cloud is upset when Aerith dies. He blames himself. Hell, he almost killed her himself twice in OG. Of course he feels like shit. Of course he feels guilty. He feels she went to confront Sephiroth on her own because of what he did. But he doesn’t really do much after this. They resolve to go after Sephiroth, but he’s able to get through the Jenova fight, “bury” Aerith and go back to get some sleep at one of the abandoned homes. 

When he thinks Tifa dies in Nibelheim, he gets stabbed through the fucking chest and somehow, this grunt kid, picks a 6′1″ dude up by just using sheer rage and willpower and throws him into the depths of the reactor. Like holy shit, what kind of feeling do you need to do that? And Cloud ultimately probably saved a lot of people early on doing that. 

Cloti was endgame from the moment OG starts. You really don’t know it, though, for a long time. You also don’t fully grasp it the first time you play the game. If you replay it, you’ll see some subtle references to this, such as Cloud getting jealous in Costa del Sol if Tifa is talking to Johnny, Tifa holding Cloud when he sees Jenova in the Shinra building, the flashback he has of her during the second bombing mission, but that’s not enough to say “it’s obvious from the beginning.” 

The story’s intent was to have them be endgame. The point of Aerith was to show more of the illusion (for Cloud). Aerith overall is the most important character plot wise. However, it doesn’t matter either way if people did or didn’t see romance between the Cloud and Aerith. The story plays out the same. What you can’t deny is Tifa’s importance to Cloud overall and how the story plays out... 

In closing, though, there is NOTHING saying a person can’t like Clerith. Absolutely nothing. They just can’t claim it’s endgame or canon. It never was. The illusion was supposed to be broken. You were supposed to move on from her death. That was that - whether he romantically had feelings for her or not. 

But Canon doesn’t mean best. If you don’t like a canon couple, nothing wrong with a fanon couple. People write some good shit for fanon. You just can’t attack, butcher, twist, lie, and bully to push your rhetoric as canon.

Thanks for sending the ask/comments in. I think it’s a great addition to the discussion!