#I know why they hate 'bi lesbian;' I think they use 'bihet' just to hurt us (which is why they don't see it as comparable?)

[maslows-pyramid-scheme]

idk i just think it's weird how in an effort to disprove the accusations of PC hanging around hateful biphobic blogs and getting recommended to them, her reblog of your post is followed by a bunch of biphobic anons being vile towards you 🤷

does "yeah but i can call bisexuals this derogatory term because it accurately describes most of them" anon not understand that the logic behind that means there's no issue with calling febfems (or "the rest of" bisexual women) "bi lesbians" instead? or does it only apply when it doesn't concern your own erasure and misuse of a word?

Isn't it just???

She's not the only questionable radfem I've rubbed shoulders with lately; there was another woman/troll who implied that biphobic domestic violence/sexual violence was a sound punishment for a lesbophobic bisexual woman. I definitely don't agree with P or that disgustingly lesbophobic blog post, but I don't see how it's ever appropriate to wish hate crimes on a marginalised group??

(Radfems theoretically understand this - they know that a gay man doesn't deserve to be hate-crimed for being misogynistic)

I understand that everyone has different experiences with bisexuals, and I definitely don't think people should advocate for bisexuals if they don't care/don't think our experiences are uniquely bisexual ('it's just homophobia + misogyny'), but I would like to see a little more empathy for bisexuals here (and for bisexuals and lesbians in mainstream radfemspaces).

[bisolationist]

piqued-curiosity/718080230266470400

I'm so sorry. This is so funny. I agree with the post itself but it's hilarious that she can't see she's doing literally the EXACT same thing about bisexuals. When lesbians call us dick worshipers, compare bi women to TIMs, or talk shit about our rape statistics to make us sound like liars and harpies, her response is the exact thing she's criticizing! She mentions it in passing, in some completely non-confrontational "well I don't 100% agree with everything but let's agree to disagree" way and rushes to praise the author for being soooo insightful and to say we all need to listen to her lol. When people get mad she's sidelining the rape apologia, she triples down on that bisexuals are zeroing in on the wrong thing and anyway she didn't fully agree with it or anything and something something Andrea Dworkin! Why can't anyone get it through their skulls that it's ALSO demeaning and triggering to lecture people they shouldn't "zero in" on people belittling their rape and instead they should use "criticial thinking" to care about "(what is implied to be) more important conversation" about lesbophobia. Clearly she gets it if she sees why a useless disclaimer that then gives all the textual sympathy to the perp is bad!

Not to mention how she reacted to the blackpills harassing bi rape victims, saying they're just angry at bisexual homophobia and they need compassion and anyway what does it harm. Is that not the same shit she's criticizing here?

💀💀💀

omg you're right anon.

The easiest explanation I can see is that these people DO think that biphobia of any severity SHOULD be dismissed for more important things (literally anything is more important), and they DO think in some way that bi rape victims deserve to be demeaned and degraded as punishment for other bi people being homophobic (or at least they have no right to complain if they are).

If it's not that... then, what? I guess maybe they're just so secure in their assumption that bisexuals are always in the wrong and whining about nothing that they become incapable of seeing how spreading rape apologia with only passing criticisms about general misogyny (and absolutely not addressing the homophobia of it; more on this later) and then immediately dismissing it to focus on "the real problem" is actually kind of insane? Like just a complete lack of empathy there? I guess this just loops around to being the first thing to me.

But yeah, it just seems IMPOSSIBLE to get anyone to just stand up to say "no you're just being homophobic and/or misogynistic" and accept that as enough of an answer when someone starts belittling the homophobic abuse of bi people. There's always a million conditionals that get spit out - "oh they're angry because they've been hurt by homophobic bisexuals" - "oh these people are wrong but they need compassion uwu" - "oh well bisexuals are sooo privileged this doesn't affect them who cares". And ultimately the conversation shifts about how much of this shit bisexuals deserve it and to what degree lol. And yeah you know, it never gets called homophobic, despite the fact there's really not many things more severely homophobic than belittling, silencing, and ridiculing SSA ppl attempting to speak out about homophobic abuse they've suffered. Just a fun quirky thing to do if it's some bihet ig?

I guess part of the problem is that so many people are so much worse and so much more outwardly hateful and wretched, that these cowards dropping "Well I don't agree with aaaall of it but gross language aside she's RIGHT and you bihets need to to get over yourselves and listen to her <3" bullshit honestly think they're nuanced heroes giving neutral and enlightened views - and they get mad if we see through it! They actually get mad if we don't want to be sold rape apologia in a polite package, just because their friends are worse and outwardly wishing hate crimes on us!

There's no point in calling out the hypocrisy though because as we already saw they just spin it to say bisexuals are weaponizing our rape or whatever and we should stop trying to censor their andrea dworkin or whateverrrr.

[rantingcrocodile]

Kinsey 1 again. Well, yes, I do think that LGB spaces should be for same sex attraction only. It makes no damn sense for Kinsey 1s like me to be there. I don't really "actively hide being bi" or anything, because I have only ever actually felt like a little crush type attraction to a woman like 3 times in my life, and never acted on it. It's not something I ever think about because it doesn't really have any affect on my life. It's very minor and not important to me.

I just feel hurt I guess that kissing women at parties makes me lesbophobic or something. Which I haven't even done in years anyways. But it was just fun being drunk and high and comfortable with nice strangers. And then I see lesbians on here talk about how horrible that is because I wouldn't have a relationship with a woman, so that makes me evil and bad. Why would I want to go to an LGB space and talk about this? It just makes me look like the living embodiment of the stereotype they hate, and it would make all the other bis who are 50/50 or febfem look bad by association. They could point at me and say to you, "look there she is! proof! all bi women do is make out at parties they are users who do not want love!"

And I have had a lesbian get a crush on me once, in community college. I told her I was straight of course. She was a very touchy feely person and was always hugging me when our group hung out, and I let her hug me even though it made me uncomfortable. I could tell she was still crushing on me even after I let her down. But I was not attracted to her.

I think it is better if I am straight, it is easier, healthier, better, because I do not have to deal with any of that bullshit drama. In the straight world, women can kiss and makeout and it is fun and free and happy and it doesn't make us bad people, it is just having some fun.

Life gets easier when you recognise that the biphobes are going to hate us for literally anything anyway. You need to live your life in a way that makes you happy.

Biphobic lesbians like to pretend that bisexuals are evil "bihets" that would never have a relationship with women and also predatory and obsessed with lesbians who are always in relationships with them and break their hearts. There is no winning here, they always have excuses.

I could reiterate what I said last night, but I want you to consider the opposite for a moment.

What do you think I would say to someone that came here, described herself essentially as a "febfem" and then said that it was "easier" and "less drama" to call herself a "lesbian" even though that wasn't true?

If you really considered yourself "straight" then none of this would bother you. You wouldn't be offended and hurt by biphobia because you could brush it off because it wouldn't apply to you.

You know my stance here. I'll always support you and be here for you, but I also really do think that you need to take some time and process all of this.

Edit: I just saw this second part afterwards, sorry!

They’re supposed to be support spaces that include bisexuals. 

In fairness, you’re completely hung up on the false belief that it’s about same-sex attraction and nothing else. They’re for bisexuals, too. 

Realistically, they’re not just to get support, they’re to give support as well. 

You don’t deal with the same problems that lesbians and gay men do, but you do face the same problems that other bisexuals have to go through, which is biphobia and the massive internalised biphobia that most bisexuals have.

It’s really not laughable at all. I wish you realised exactly how important and worthy you are, too.

[dearheart42regenerated]

hoo boy, okay, this is a baaaaad idea and it’s LONG but I’m doing it anyway because I’m genuinely struggling with this, I don’t have an IRL community to turn to, and I want to hear what other lesbians/wlw think about this beyond my own tiny circle. (for the record I’m not a discourse blog, so pleeeease be gentle and don’t drag me into any super messy debates? the most I want to do is get opinions from different people and learn enough to come to my own private conclusions and move on)

I’m a bby lesbian (and a long-time ace) and the “bi-lesbian” thing upsets me too. but I’ve seen an argument brought up that made me stop and think, and I’m kinda stumped about it. the argument is that we're ALREADY using lesbian as an umbrella term, but only get upset about it when bi women do the same. 

for example...when we see a wlw couple walking down the street or getting married, or two women kissing in a TV show or pictures shown on twitter (much like the cute “sword lesbians” story that’s been circulating), MOST of the time, everyone (including us!) tends to automatically call them “lesbians” or a "lesbian couple” or a “lesbian wedding”, etc...without thinking about what their actual orientations are.

I saw another person bring up an experience where her lesbian gf would joke about them "doing lesbianism babey!" but when she tried to do the same as a bi woman, her gf would get mad at her and say she couldn't do that. the main point of all of this is that there's hypocrisy in play - when lesbians put the "lesbian" label on other women, whether irl or fiction, most people don’t kick up a fuss. but when bi women use the label themselves, suddenly it's bad and lesbophobic/biphobic.

this troubles me because I DO see it happen all the time, both online and in the few irl experiences I’ve had. and I think it's a valid point to make (especially because "sapphic" is barely used irl at all). it feels unfair to use "lesbian" with the same-ish looseness we use "gay", and then draw the line at bi women using it too. (there’s also a very real problem of bi ppl with same-gender partners turning to “Gay And Lesbian” spaces cos they have nowhere else to turn, and getting kicked out for not being a “real gay”. there are tangible real-life layers to this discourse that I don’t want to brush off.)

but at the same time, "lesbian" is the only modern word we have (particularly our only mainstream word) to describe our full, unique experience as women who are exclusively attracted to other women/women-aligned people. bi women already have “bisexual” as their recognizable mainstream term, and they also have “queer”, “wlw”, “sapphic”, etc as further options to fine-tune their identity...so it feels just as unfair to use "lesbian” too, and that’s the main reason why the term “bi-lesbian” personally upsets me right now. 

it’s also upsetting because “bi-lesbian” implies that some lesbians could still be open to men, and we already face so much lesbophobic pressure to create space for men in our identity/attraction because “you never know, you might feel attracted to a man someday! sexuality is always fluid y’know! maybe you’re not really a lesbian!” we get that pressure both from the outside world AND often from the rest of the LGBTQ+ community too. it’s really harmful and painful to deal with, especially for those of us who’ve had to deal with comphet and still do (aka meeeee)

putting the rest under a readmore cos this is getting long lol

I wish "bi lesbians” and their supporters would take that stuff into consideration...and I wish I saw more people caring in general about the lesbians who are hurting from this. 

we’re tired of having the worst assumed of us, of being treated as the “bad guys” by other communities every time we speak up about things that hurt us. statistically, we’re one of the smallest groups in the alphabet soup. we barely even have our own flag, and the creator of our most popular one right now is still facing hate, harassment and being unjustly accused of being a TERF/exclusionist/bigot. 

it feels like morale and pride are so low among us right now. we just want people to care about us, to be mindful of how we feel and what we go through as lesbians, to give us the same support and benefit-of-a-doubt that you so easily give to our other LGBTQ+ siblings. 

aaand now I’m just emotionally venting lol but TL;DR - I want to be fair to both sides of this topic, cos that’s the type of person I am. I want to stick up for my own community, but I also want to be inclusive to questioning/struggling people and a good ally to my bi sisters. so help me figure all this out. how do y’all feel about what I’ve brought up here?

lesbians and bi women: how do you feel about the point that we’re already using “lesbian” as a roughly gay-equivalent umbrella term for the women we see in relationships with other women? why shouldn’t bi women use it that way too? if they shouldn’t, why aren’t we pushing harder for alternatives like “sapphic” to use in those cases and telling each other to stop when one of us uses “lesbian” or “lesbianism” incorrectly for unspecified wlw couples?

pro-bi-lesbian people: asking in genuine confusion here, how is using the term “bi lesbian” any better than using “bihet” or “bi straight”? how is it not feeding into the misconception that bisexuals are just “half-gay half-straight”? and why is it worth holding onto that label when a) “bisexual” is a mainstream term that, by definition, already has room to encompass your experience, b) other more specific words that mean the same/similar thing already exist for you (i.e. “sapphic”), and c) your term of choice hurts lesbians by undermining our definition of ourselves and adding to the cultural pressure we face to make room for hypothetical future men in our sexuality?

also I want to make it very clear that I’m NOT blaming “bi lesbians” for men feeling entitled to seduce/harass us, or insinuating that you contribute to rape culture or anything like that. predatory men will be predatory no matter what words we use, I fully acknowledge that. rather my concern is that anyone can put pressure on us (and all too often do) to make room for men in our orientation, including within the LGBTQ+ community, and “bi lesbian” as a term contributes to that type of lesbophobia.

please be nice, or at least civil, and talk to me. I want to listen and see if your opinions will help me find some clarity in my own. you’re free to message me or reblog this with your takes on these issues, but if you reblog, please focus on talking with me and don’t fight each other. I will delete this if things get ugly or out of hand.

[dinosaurseatmen]

I keep thinking about how bisexual women have so much insecurity about their sexuality that in the end they often hurt lesbians. Sometimes they accuse us of absurd things like "lesbians think we bis are disgusting bc we sleep with men" or "gold star lesbians have a superiority complex. they think they are superior bc they never willingly slept with a man" or "lesbians think our attraction to men makes us bad feminists". it's difficult to deal with this bc on one hand it's completely absurd and these are just such wild accuses. but on the other hand there's a grain of truth in it at least from a certain perspective. like no, you're not disgusting for sleeping with men and you're not beneath gold star lesbians and no, being bi doesn't make you a bad feminist. but it's sometimes the case that a bisexual woman will in the end value a relationship with a man more than a relationship with a woman (bc patriarchy taught her to and it's difficult to unlearn this). and so, naturally, lesbians will probably tend to trust other lesbians more easily than they will trust bisexual women

I'm sorry if this sounds too harsh but I'm hurt and I'm exhausted. what's the worst of all is the insecurity bisexual women have towards lesbians. I feel like we constantly have to assure them that we don't think what they accuse us of thinking. they literally come with the most ridiculous stereotypes of lesbians and then we have to comfort them and assure them that we aren't the stereotypes they make of us. I can't speak for all lesbians ofc but in the end, I'd even defend those lesbians who think like that about bis. So what if some lesbian thinks she's a better feminist than bihet women? Why would that make bihet women insecure about their own feminism? I feel like no one would be insecure about a thing that they know is blatantly wrong so why would they be insecure?

(And those cases where bihet women say shit like "lesbians hate me so now I'm done with feminism/women/an alliance with lesbians". sis, where is the logic? you're not a feminist if you can drop feminism for a dumb thing a feminist once said. if you're convinced of what you're fighting for then you won't drop it just like that for petty reasons.)