#lesbian discourse

[posting-stuffies]

Original | Exclu comments

Exclus went full circle.

"I'm attracted to one gender" -> "I am bisexual". Lolgic!

[cripp-tid]

reminder that "lesbian means attraction to non-men" is not as inclusive as you think! you're inherently leaving out multigender people, certain butches, and lesboys. like, some of us ARE male. "queer attraction to women" is a much more friendly definition

terfs fuck off and die challenge

[butchdataset]

"but if we accept anyone's identity, cis men will start IDing as lesbians"

yes. there probably are already cisgender men who do ID as lesbians. there are probably amab multigender, genderflux, and genderfluid lesbians who are sometimes, partially, or always cis men. there are probably intersex cis men who feel their intersexuality gives them a unique experience with gender/attraction that can possibly only be described as "lesbian." there are probably people with systems whose headmates are cisgender men and lesbians and have times where both of those states exist at once. there are probably cis men who just have a complicated relationship with their attraction that "lesbian" feels like the best label to.

I am not willing to nor will I ever spend my free time trying to police what other people are trying to describe internally. it's pretty fuckin obvious when someone is IDing as something in good faith, and as long as that person is genuinely trying to encapsulate their experience and find a community within that experience, I will be there to hold hands with them as a fellow lesbian.

[transmascpetewentz]

holy shit???

[colombinna]

Lesbian is an identity that does not involve men in any way whatsoever I don't know what about that is so hard to understand

[valkylander]

Hi, @sendherhome! Thank you for your input. I can tell you're coming from a good place, however I think you've missed the mark in a few places.

First of all, in addition to being a lesbian, I'm aroace. I like when characters have relationships and attractions outside of their typical attraction schema because that's what I do, because it shows the vast diversity of human romance and sexuality, and because it spits in the face of prescriptive/gold-star rhetoric. There are lesbians in the real world who date men because they want to date those men despite being lesbians. We don't help lesbians by erasing the inconvenient ones, we help lesbians by pointing out that no woman is inherently available to men.

Second, I am completely on board for transfemme/non-binary Laios. In fact the post you expected this to be? I've made that post before.

See? That's mine. I did that. And if I had kept going, if I hadn't thought "Marcille declares herself a lesbian with an exception" was the funniest line to end on, that's probably the direction the post would have continued. Laios comes out as Monstergender, starts using it/its pronouns. Marcille learns that bisexuality is a thing. Something like that.

Third, I'm pretty sure "Lesbian starts dating a non-binary, bisexual Laios and does not stop identifying as a lesbian" is the opposite of "A lesbian can find a cishet man who will change how she identifies." She literally does not change how she identifies. The presence of an ostensibly male Laios does not remotely change the fact that she's a lesbian. Because lesbianism is not about men. Men do not factor into whether a woman is a lesbian.

[peach-and-bugs]

Little vent about the current debate going on because of the Jasmin comments:

I am so so tired of lgbtq+ discourse, it makes me feel so old

I feel really lucky that I had older queer people in my life who kept me in check. And I mean older queer people as in a few years older than me in high school. They helped me develop my interest in queer history, which is the backbone of our community.

A huge reason we keep doubling back on the same conversations is because people don’t look at the early history behind queerness! A lot of the terms we use now aren’t knew. They haven’t changed, and we need to stop trying to change them!

Lesbianism has always been about non men who love other non men. Lesbianism also can’t be just a romantic orientation, unlike other orientations. Lesbianism is rooted in both romantic and sexual attraction (this is in regards to the idea of “bi-lesbians” and “pan-lesbians”. AroAce lesbians have been around forever and again, are part of queer history)

This also goes in hand with debated like “can trans men/trans masks be lesbians” and “does a lesbian who doesn’t want to have sex with a penis make them transphobic”. I’m so tired of lesbianism being debated constantly!

We don’t see this kind of debate with gay men, so why do we have to deal with it as lesbians? It’s exhausting and makes me not want to talk about my sexuality online because even in spaces that are supposed to be safe we still deal with these debates.

Please, learn your queer history. Take the time to learn about the people and culture that came before us, because we didn’t invent anything. Listen to our queer elders and learn from them, because if we don’t it’s just going to cause more discourse in our community which is already facing so much from others

[chaos-in-one]

Anyways I love being multigender and a lesbian. I love having a weird relationship with gender while also being a sapphic woman. I love being a man and also being sapphic. Being multigender doesn't make my love towards women less sapphic, less gay, than it is for a monogender woman. I am still a woman who loves women. Some of y'all just aren't fucking normal about multigender and fail to see how the shit you say about us is literally a regurgitation of shit transphobes say about trans women who are wlw or lesbians <3

[leatherlesbianstuff]

Who wants to end lesbophobia by making out with me

[molluscren]

I genuinely don't understand how mspec lesbians consider themselves lesbians, like isn't the entire point of being lesbian that you are a non-man attracted to non-men? Can someone explain? Wouldn't that, like, invalidate a masculine identity? I'm not trying to start shit or hate, I just genuinely need it explained to me

[cripp-tid]

wait but no because arguing over definitions in the community is so fucking pointless. "lesbian is exclusive attraction to women!" "no, it's attraction to non-men!" actually lesbian means i fucked ur mom. hope this helps

[betterthanmasterofone]

Saw a post today that made a good point but the op kept adding screenshots of tags/comments to say that mspec lesbians were not a valid label and that it was terf rhetoric to use those terms. And while yes, there was a terf argument that lesbians who date transwomen are really just bisexual/mspec, the term bi/pan lesbian is also used by people who are bisexual and also women or women/sapphic aligned non-binary people. Bi/pan women calling themselves bi/pan lesbians doesn’t mean that lesbians (people who use lesbian to describe themselves) are attracted to men or that lesbians who date trans women are bi/pan lesbians.

I don’t personally use bi lesbian to describe myself but imo it should be considered a valid label. Just because terfs have tried to weaponize it to further their own transphobia does not make the term inherently transphobic. Especially since the main problem with terfs weaponizing it was that they claimed every lesbian attracted to amab women/lesbians is mspec, not that mspec people exist.

I can see how some people would consider bi/pan lesbian to be a lesbophobic term because it includes people who are attracted to men. I think it depends however if you define lesbian more as any person who experiences wlw attraction or if you define it more as women who aren’t attracted men (the difference being one defines lesbianism by a lack of interest in men and the other defines it by interest in women). I personally don’t see a reason to exclude mspec women from the term lesbian or from lesbian spaces as there is more we have in common than things that are different. Additionally, unless mspec lesbians are entering lesbian spaces just to talk about their attraction to men or otherwise hijacking resources/spaces then I don’t see why it would even be an issue except that some people want to police the use of labels/identities when there is no actual harm being caused.

Additionally, mspec women have historically been part of lesbian spaces and there is significant evidence of this. So if your argument is based on “lesbian has never included people who experience attraction to men” then that’s not a valid argument either because they have always shared spaces.

Again, this is my opinion as a bi woman so if lesbians want to tell me that actually mspec lesbians taking over lesbian spaces to talk about non lesbian related topics is a huge issue then by all means correct me, but otherwise this seems like a non issue and the dogpiling/harassment or labelling as a terf of people I’ve seen against people who support mspec lesbians seems counterproductive and unnecessary to me.

[seasonalhowls]

It's literally so weird when people ask me about the validity of groups I'm not a part of. "Hey summer do you think that bi lesbians are valid" man idgaf personally *ive* never wanted to kiss a not woman but like I do not Care what you do. "Heeey what's your opinion on people who think being otherkin is queer" idk and idc what are you a cop?

[lady-b0y]

One of the most healing things you can do as a lesbian is to refuse to participate in lesbian discourse

[blazingemeraldau]

Just want to mention

If you support/use the label mspec lesbians, bi lesbians, pan lesbians, omni lesbians, etc.

Do not interact with me. The label mspec lesbians is harmful

If you are a man, or are attracted to men in any way, you are not a lesbian.

If you like all genders but have a preference for nonmen, you cannot call yourself a lesbian

Common Arguments I've heard:

"But Bi doesn't mean you like men! Just two or more genders!!"

Okay so what's a pan lesbian then?

Pan means you are attracted to people regardless of what they identify as. This can include men.

Besides, bi people have gotten accused of being 50% gay and 50% straight. The labels Lesbian and gay are a homoromantic (gay) label, not a multi-spec one. You are not only harming lesbians, but bi people are well.

"We are including trans and nonbinary people by using the label mspec lesbian!"

I know the definition of a lesbian varies, but it says "woman loving woman, nonbinary loving woman, nonbinary living nonbinary, etc"

In case you didn't know, the lesbian label already includes trans women and nonbinary people. By claiming it doesn't, and making a new label that causes more harm than good, you are being transphobic and enbyphobic.

"If a man thinks lesbians are attracted to men, that's their fault! Not ours!"

Yes, but you're not exactly helping by using the label.

If someone said that lesbians are attracted to men in some percent, whether 1% or 99%, someone could believe that. And when they meet a lesbian, a man could hit on them, despite them not being attracted to them.

You are not helping by using the label mspec lesbian

"Why do you care anyways? It's just a label! People should be able to use whatever label they want without someone saying "Hey you can't use that!"

"Why can't I say I'm a black person even though my skin tone is white? It's just a label!"

"Why can't I say I'm a trans gay person when I'm cis and hetero? It's just a label!"

"Why can't I say I have PTSD even though I don't? It's just a label!"

See what's wrong here? By saying "It's just a label!" You are saying "People can use whatever label they want despite said label is not for them to use!"

According to your logic, a gay man can say he is a lesbian. After all its just a label.

A homophobe can say they are trans and gay. After all it's just a label!

Oh, it's bad for them to use labels offensively? But wait! I thought you said it was just a label!!

The label "Lesbians is for a nonbinary person, woman, loving another nonbinary person, or woman." Men are not included in the label lesbian. Mspec lesbians are throwing the idea that men can be into lesbianism, and guess what! We have shit like lesboys, and straight-lesbians! But I guess it doesn't matter does it? After all, It's jUsT a LaBeL!

(Apologies for getting a bit personal and angry there)

"What if a trans man comes out as trans but doesn't want to lose the lesbian label?"

(Yes this was an argument I've gotten)

Lemme say it so yall can hear it

TRANS MEN ARE MEN

TRANS WOMEN ARE WOMEN

If a trans man comes out as trans, they are no longer a lesbian since they are not a woman. They can just say they are straight. (Yes, not every trans person is homoromantic. Some are trans but they are hetero. And that's fine!!)

Saying "He's a trans man but identifies as a lesbian!" Is transphobic. He is a man; if you're saying he is a lesbian, you're saying he is not man/ being lesbiphobic.

"But we don't have a label to use!" Or, "We are using the split attraction model!"

Simple:

"I'm bisexual but with a preference towards women!"

"I'm romantically attracted to women, but sexually attracted to all genders!"

"I like guys and girls, but prefer guys on the romantic side"

Or if that's too hard, just say you're bi. Or pan. Or omni

You don't need to create a harmful label that contradicts both labels.

Lesbian is not an umbrella term.

Lesbian doesn't include men

If you are attracted to men you are not a lesbian

If you are a man you are not a lesbian

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk

[mirukosbitchywife]

just so we're all clear if you post bi vs lesbian discourse or bi women hating on lesbians/vice versa i am blowing you up in my mind. every time i see one of those posts my urge to sloppily make out with a bi woman increases. your discourse can't stop me. im kissing every normal bi woman/enby directly on the mouth right now actually. we're gonna have sex on your bed later btw