#I've read a lesbian novel where Men were written to be totally irrelevant to the plot

[captnjacksparrow]

But Kishimoto gave gender to his characters and he created pattern concerning the gender. It would be different if we had some female characters that are similar in dream, motivation and power etc. to the male characters. Look at Attack on titan, we also have gender there but we don’t feel it because the author established this pattern about dreams, motivation, power etc. that I mentioned above but in Naruto we don’t have it. Even Konan or Tsunade they are bland compare to male characters. And of course we have some male characters that are not developed but we don’t look at them because we have so many male characters that are greatly developed but with women we look at them that way because they suffer in not being developed enough and they are made as women, even great female characters such as Tsunade and Konan lack development. Why is that this lack of development concern every women in Naruto while majority of male characters have development and take roles that women wanted to achive. I don’t think Kishi is sexist but I think he keeps this stereotype in his head concerning women and that’s why they are written that way. I don’t know if this is true but in one of his interviews someone said to him that he likes Hinata and Kishi answered sth like you like girls with big boobs. This is really inappropriate. I hate Sakura but when she was hated Kishimoto instead of changing her personality, goals chose to make her more beautiful. If it was like you said then Kishimoto wouldn’t look at gender while creating his characters because he could create an amazing character with development and then he would add gender or even change gender if his claims are true that he can’t write female characters but he chose not to do it because he has a pattern concerning women. I know that you won’t agree with me but this is just my opinion.

Thanks for your opinion. @carmenserenity123456

I am not at all saying, "I disagree with you"..... This isn’t like SNS vs SS/NH argument where I can debunk you with all the valid panels....  Because, this discussion is so complicated and the opinion varies from people to people because the topic is in and of itself is vague.

I would have joined you, if all this criticism were for any other Shonen.

My whole point is....

Your Opinion is just not suited for Naruto, the Series.

That's where I am coming from. You can take this as a Rant and see what I am trying to say rather than me opposing your view or anything.... 

When I complete watching Naruto, there’s not one moment I felt any blatant misogyny under my skin which made me go off the rails.... It’s only after visiting these Social Media platforms, I’ve been seeing these Misogyny claims getting prevalent which always confused me. Because the only Negative feeling I felt after completing this series was... “Why this Sakura and Hinata wants to get inside N and S pants so badly???” That’s all... Other than that, everything was fine with me. 

And initially I too thought that the Author was bad at writing women characters... But after I started to pay real attention to other female characters, I realized that the Author was intentionally mocking Sakura and Hinata... And I’ve explained more than once about why he chose to mock them specifically. Yes, I agree that compared to the other male characters, Women characters lack screen presence and development. But I know the reason why.... And that’s what I am going to explain here....

Why every women in Naruto suffers from lack of development while majority of male characters have development?

LACK OF A MAIN FEMALE CHARACTER

Yes, You can say Sakura was the Heroine of the series because she was in Team 7 and featured in most of the Chapter Posters, Promotional Material and so on. She is a Heroine but only in Name.... The Real Heroine of this series is Sasuke which was acknowledged by Kishimoto and I’ve talked about it extensively in this post... [Link].... And the way he gave all the Tropes of Hinata to Sasuke at every given time, the way he gave Kushina’s tropes to Sasuke, the way he blatantly sexualized Sasuke and made him play a femme fatale by hugging Naruto in Orochimaru Lair and liked Naruto’s kiss in Chapter 27... 

How is it that Sasuke was a given the tropes of 2 women... Not to mention one was Naruto’s mom and another was Naruto’s ‘nonexistent’ wife??? And this even gets more funny when the Author made his Hero from his other Manga to say this to Saori, the Heroine????

“I Like you... You.... Resemble my mother... A little...”

Ummm, Excuse me???

People who realize these facts... will not expect anything from Sakura because she is not the REAL HEROINE... She was just another valuable plot device to promote another Bond. That’s all. 

When a Shonen series which ran for 15 years has a Heroine in all just a name but ended up having no relevance to the story..... general Audience will surely criticize this development... Because they don’t know the real purpose of Sakura’s presence in the story... And that’s understandable... 

If only Sakura had some relevance to the story, then 2 things would have definitely happened... 

1. No one would’ve raised this issue of Misogyny claim or anything... Because they will be happy with whatever development Sakura got from the Author...  

2. It would’ve opened a welcoming door for more women to have some relevance... because if Sakura is relevant to the story, then the women associated with her would also ended up having a lot of relevance... And that brings me to my next point

LACK OF FEMALE CHARACTER ECOSYSTEM

This is such an important aspect in any media to have strong presence of Women Characters.... 

For Example....

This is a picture from Kill Bill movie where the story revolves around the Heroine.... And the people in this picture are the Perpetrators behind the Tragedy that had happened to her.... If you notice, out of 4 people in the picture, 3 were Women.... 

If you look at the Right Corner of this picture, you will see a Chinese Woman who is the Main Antagonist of the First Volume of Kill Bill. Since she is also a Main Character.... We get this Extremely Gratifying power display

She is not a Cartoonish Villain, FYI.... She is the Boss of the Criminal Organization.... And this gave rise to....

2 more women Characters were seen standing behind this Boss Lady.... They are her Loyal Assistants who would do anything for her.... And that leads to...

The Protagonist having an extended fight sequence spanning 5 minutes with this girl.... in a 1.5 hrs movie. 

A Strong Female Protagonist gave rise to another Strong Female Antagonist.... And that gave rise to strong female Assistants who follows her....  And this is what I call as Ecosystem... Pushing more women characters into the Main Menu will lead to opening doors for more women who follows them...

However, When you look at this other Movie....

This is from the Movie called Lord of the Rings (LoTR).... And this movie was all about the struggles and hardships faced by this Fellowship of Men whose only job is to destroy the One Ring... Source of all evil... And it’s very clear that this movie will have no big amount of Relevance for Female Characters.... Because they don’t belong to the fellowship. 

Yes, there are couple of Women characters in this movie who played a role of an Angel, Damsel in Distress, A Warrior (for a very short time).... But no one had any true development as equivalent to the male characters... 

I won’t be calling LoTR as the Misogynistic movie.... It’s just that there is no scope for a Strong Women Characters here... Because the Ecosystem is dry....

And this brings me to Naruto....

These are the only Main Characters of Naruto series...... And they are Boys at that... You can argue as much as you want that Sakura and Kakashi were also main Characters.... but this is the Truth. Kishimoto never gave 2 fucks about Team 7 or anything.... He was all about Naruto and Sasuke.  

The Eco System is absolutely dry here... Not one Female character has been pushed as the Main character and hence it feels like the relevance for Women characters are very less...

You may now ask... Other Animes were also like this... that is, it revolves around a Male Character or two... But still it ended up having Women Characters with reasonable development... And Why didn’t Kishimoto do that here... ???? He could’ve easily made certain Male Characters into Female and developed in the same way.... Why didn’t he do that???? And this question brings me to...

PARALLEL STORY TELLING

I’ve asked myself many times.... as to why he didn’t change the Gender of certain Male Characters and give them to female Characters... That would’ve attracted even more women readers into this Manga.... But only after carefully analyzing it I found this thing....

That is, Kishimoto is an Obsessive Freak for Parallels.... 

In the very First Arc, He made a literal parallel of Haku with Sasuke and Zabuza with Naruto in many ways.... One of the important thing established in this Arc is the Nature of the Bond between Haku and Zabuza is very similar to N and S... 

And then the Author made a literal parallel of Team 7 with Team Sannin.... Each Sannin becomes the respective Master for their students.... Similar to Orochimaru, Sasuke also treaded into the Dark path.... Just like Jiraiya, Naruto stayed in the Straight Path.... Just like Sasuke, Orochimaru also left Konoha to achieve his goal... Just like Jiraiya, Naruto couldn’t able to bring back Sasuke after part 1.... 

I simply can’t see either Jiraiya or Orochimaru were to be gender swapped and teach boys and pass their knowledge... Because their bond somewhat parallels N and S to some extent... 

The Fact that Jiraiya couldn’t able to bring back Orochimaru was because Jiraiya gave up pursuing Orochimaru after some time... and Orochimaru has no ‘special’ feelings for Jiraiya to make an exception for him.... Whereas that’s not the case between N and S... 

This is another parallel between Obito & Naruto.... and Kakashi & Sasuke.... 

What if Naruto treaded into the Dark path???? And What if Sasuke stayed in the Light Path???? That’s the parallel Kishimoto wanted to show between these people... 

Kakashi also lost his mom, dad, his friends, his Sensei... Somewhat very similar to Sasuke..... And yet he could stay in the Light Path without succumbing into Darkness.... 

Whereas Obito also had the same dream & similar personality as Naruto.... And somehow he succumbed into Darkness.... Obito is the Main Villain and Naruto is the Hero... 

Again, I simply can’t see either Obito or Kakashi being women when the Author wanted to show this kind of parallel for N and S.... 

This is one of the most Cleverly designed panel in this Manga which always makes me cry....

What is the similarity between Minato and Itachi, by the way?? Well, there are many... But I’ll attach just one....

Regrettably, Both Minato and Itachi were responsible for Naruto and Sasuke’s loneliness.... And it all started from the Kyuubi Incident....

And the last and obvious one...

I really don’t have to go into anymore detail, Do I???? 

Hashi and Madara bond is a plot device to show what went wrong between them so as to not able to break the Curse.... And how would N and S would break the curse??? What’s the difference between these 2 bonds??? And What are the similarities.... 

I’ve never seen any media where these many insane amount of parallels were drawn just to exaggerate the Bond between 2 people.... 

Haku and Zabuza were drawn to mirror the possible feelings between N and S...

Orochimaru and Jiraiya trained their respective students... How did their pupils turned out in the end??? Since N and S never ended up like J and O, What’s the difference between these 2 bonded pairs????

Team Minato parallels Team 7.... But somehow personalities got switched and ended up in different paths.... Why is that??? Why a person similar to Naruto ended up in such a way??? And How could a person similar to Sasuke ended up staying in the right path???

Hashi and Madara loved each other.... But why couldn’t they break the curse??? What’s the difference between HM and SNS??? 

If only Sasuke or Naruto were to be a Girl... Then all the respective people who parallels them would’ve been changed into Female characters.... For Example, if Sasuke were to be a Girl.... Then Haku (who already dressed up as a Girl), Orochimaru (Gender fluid), Kakashi, Itachi would’ve been changed into Female characters and I wouldn’t be writing this explanation post here.... 

Or If N and S were just friends.... Sakura would’ve been given a great relevance to the story... Which means, Her Family background would’ve been explored and her direct parallel people like Rin and Tsunade, Ino would’ve ended up getting good development.... But Since, Sakura was made into a Laughing Stock of Naruto series, any female characters who were associated with her had suffered the Lack of Development.... Thank the Heavens, Tsunade survived this mess... And Rin was made into a pleasant one... 

Man!!! Kishi used all those bonds to exaggerate N and S whereas he used Tsunade and Rin to mock Sakura.... 

Look at Iruka.... The most important person for Naruto... But he barely appears in the Manga... Other than offering Moral support for Naruto, once in a while, he has no other purpose... 

Look at Orochimaru, The Villain who terrorized Part 1 of the Manga.... was killed off in the early half of the Part 2.... And then he was reduced to a Joke...

Jiraiya has no dreams other than ogling Onsen Bath and write smut novels... And he was killed off to make Naruto understand Sasuke’s pain...

Neji was killed off as a Marriage Broker.... 

So, Even though Neji had his own narrative, somehow Kishi used him to serve the love development of Hinata & Naruto.... So, even Male characters’ purpose revolve around N and S... Unfortunately, that’s how the Author designed this story to be... 

The reason why he resort to such a story telling is to show that... Neither Jiraiya and Orochimaru nor Kakashi and Obito loved each other like N and S... Naruto and Sasuke didn’t turn out like their predecessors because they both love each other strongly... After Madara manipulated Obito, his attitude towards his own team member had changed... But even though Obito manipulated Sasuke, he still couldn’t stop himself from concerning about Naruto.... 

This is called Parallel Story telling and fortunately or unfortunately, The respective people who paralleled N and S were given a very good development, narrative wise.... Whereas other characters were mercilessly abandoned if the plot doesn’t require them...

And this is one of the most important reason.... you feel like Female Characters have less development as compared to their Male counterparts... Because just to show N and S were better than everyone... He created 6 more Male Characters who are very similar to N and S and ended up having a very good development in this story.... 

And that leads to my final point...

NATURE OF THE CHARACTERS

If the Author is pushing just 2 boys as his main characters... Then the only way a woman can have a good development in this kind of story is either she should be the Love Interest for one of the Boys... Or she should be related to Blood with one of the Boys....

Since N and S were established as orphans... There will be no scope for any Female Siblings who possibly could have any influence over these boys... You may argue, Itachi could’ve been written as a female character... But I am Sorry... Same gendered siblings have a different dynamics than the Cross-Gendered siblings.... Sasuke being obsessed about his revenge to Kill His Elder Sister might sound good on paper... But people would end up wiping tears for Itachi, if he were a Girl... And the closeness between same gendered siblings is very stronger as compared to the cross-gendered one...

And that leaves us with A Girl being a Romantic Interest to one of those boys... 

If N and S were just friends... then Hinata and Sakura would have some good amount of influence over the Boys they love earnestly and they ended up having a better development... 

But Since N and S love each other.... And also I’ve told this many times in many of my posts that Hinata and Sakura were just an Useless Gay Shields... Can I simply say, there’s no space or need for any women in this kind of Story??? 

I’ll bring The Untamed as the example, A Certified Gay media... And hilariously, this series also had very few Female Characters... Sorry... Few means... It’s exactly 4.... Out of which 3 were killed off to advance the plot... And One had a very less screen time... Probably 10 mins in total out of a 45 hour Series... 

This is out Main Character’s(MC) Sister..... She had a great influence on our MC... 

And she was killed off... to make our MC go mad....

And this lady had a Decent Development who is a Platonic Friend of our MC.... But she was also killed off... to make out MC take a further Dark Path...

This is another Girl... with whom our MC casually flirts... But she didn’t have that big of a role, tbh... 

Compared to these women Characters.... There were plenty of male characters who were given interesting roles, ambitions and dreams in this series... And it was written by a Woman at that... 

But I’ve never seen anyone had criticized this series as Misogynistic... Or criticized for lack of development for women characters... Because what is the use of having a Strong Woman in this Genre?????

This is the same pattern I saw from this Movie called Broke Back Mountain.... Which portrays about the Love between 2 men...

These are the two male lead characters (Dennis and Jack).... On whom the entire movie revolves around.... They meet... Love sparkles and they get extremely intimate...

Even though Dennis knew that he loves Jack... He still went on to marry this Girl... Because of Societal Norms and he lives in a Homophobic Repressed Society....

Now if I wear a thick FEMINIST LENS and view this movie... This Lead guy (Dennis) looks like a total jerkkk.... Who cheats an innocent girl despite loving another person... In other words, He marries this Girl (Alma) to shield his homosexuality.

Whereas if I remove my Gender Lens... And see this movie without getting biased, then I could thoroughly understand the movie in a better way.

It’s all about perspective, you see.... You can totally expect this Girl to develop her own dreams.... Choose her path and punish this Asshole for using her and screwing up her life... That’s another interesting story to explore....

But Since, this story was all about the love between Dennis and Jack.... Alma’s feelings were mostly ignored. Now can we call the writer of this Movie, a misogynist???? Just because he made his leading man to cheat this innocent woman??? Or to reduce a woman into a mere Gay Shield???

And especially after finding her husband being sexually active with his former Boyfriend... This Girl breaks down completely... Not to mention she has 3 little daughters with him...

Since this Girl is innocent... I could actually empathize with her feelings... Fortunately, She got her Divorce in the later part of the Movie... 

Now imagine Sakura’s face in Alma’s place...

Could you even sympathize with this face?????

Don’t you feel, “Sakura, Deserved this empty life!!!! Geez.... How horny must she be to chase Sasuke who clearly rejected her many times”.....????

If Kishi wrote Sakura in a likeable way.... We would definitely empathize with her and wipe her tears for her... But we will eventually join up in unison and hate Sasuke as this moron who abandoned his wife....

In order to not make that happen... But still keep Sasuke’s feelings for Naruto very intact even after their marriage.... The Author derided Sakura in the worst possible way... like, not knowing whether Sasuke wore Glasses, flaunting Uchiha Crest everywhere, Abusive towards Sarada, etc........ He precisely chose a selfish and insensitive character in Sakura’s place in order to preserve the bond of N and S and at the same time use her as a shield...

Unlike Alma from Broke Back Mountain... Sakura is neither innocent nor sensitive.... So, I don’t care what happens to Sakura.

This is what I meant in my previous post.... “Don’t expect strong women Characters in a Gay Media... Because it’s a world for Men where Women have no role to play and it would be a great injustice to those Strong Characters being wasted for Nothing....”

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I hate Sakura but when she was hated Kishimoto instead of changing her personality, goals chose to make her more beautiful.

Like I said above, her character was nothing but being a Gay Shield and a Third Wheel for N and S... She was written to be hated. Why would he change her goals??? What would that achieve????

Sakura could have been written to have gotten over her crazy obsession with Sasuke. But Boruto disaster was waiting in the alley... She will eventually marry Sasuke... So, realistically she was doomed to have no development... The Author clearly wanted to mock Sakura and Hinata in the war arc... So, that the bond between N and S will never diminish and more visible. 

And Just in case you don’t know, Kishi gave that interview in 2015, that is after finishing the manga.... Plus, Kishi said that he drew her to be pretty on Chapter 66 cover for people to notice. Out of 72 Volumes, what useful & realistic dreams Sakura could have after Volume 66, anyway??? Because Her fate was already sealed on 45th Volume itself, that is during Pain Arc.... If an Author was not willing to give her any development for 95% of the series, what development will he give her for the rest of 5%, anyway???

I don’t know if this is true but in one of his interviews someone said to him that he likes Hinata and Kishi answered sth like you like girls with big boobs. This is really inappropriate.

You may take my answer as a justification or whatever... It’s all about context and when that interview happened....  And that interview you are talking about happened in 2015... Long after the series got over. Kishimoto clearly knew Hinata was a character with no usefulness to the story...

Tell me, if you are an author... And you wrote a successful Manga... with many strong characters... And when you ask a guy, “Who is your favourite character?”... And that person shamelessly tells you, “Hinata” of all people... What would you think??? Provided that she was extremely sexualized by SP in a vulgar way.... I’ll attach that interview excerpt...

“I like the fact that at the beginning she was a weakling, but due to Naruto’s influence she steadily became strong...”

God!!!! I wonder if this person really read the Manga... She never became stronger... She was a joker who was tripping up on the battle field.... Don’t you think Kishimoto don’t know any of this???? Even to my eyes, it’s very clear that this person wanks for Hinata for her big breasts...

If that doesn’t convince you.... Here’s one of the meme from Dudebros...

My Eyes!!!! 

What a vulgar people!!!! Even though I hate her... I can’t even process this meme...

It’s very clear that All of those boys likes Hinata because of her jugs... And Kishimoto was pointing that perverted ass out. I definitely would have been furious if Kishimoto made this remark for any other female characters like Tsunade or Temari... 

One of my guy friend... told he liked Hinata... Much to my disgust, I too asked the same question just like Kishimoto... And My friend became so shy for a moment... Because that’s the truth.��If Kishi’s statement still looks inappropriate... It’s fine. To me, he was just mocking the fans of Hinata who like her for nothing other than whatever she has. 

It would be different if we had some female characters that are similar in dream, motivation and power etc. to the male characters. Look at Attack on titan, we also have gender there but we don’t feel it because the author established this pattern about dreams, motivation, power etc. that I mentioned above but in Naruto we don’t have it.

Sasuke didn’t have a dream and healthy motivation until Chapter 699...

Jiraiya didn’t, Kakashi didn’t...

Neji had a dream but was killed off to play a Marriage Broker...

Whereas Tsunade had a dream and a realistic one at that...

This is her dream... And she fulfilled it... And it still lives on... Added to that, she fulfilled Dan’s dream to become Hokage as well... Since she is not a Main Character, we can only get limited amount of her screen time... 

Not to mention, she is the only woman character to have her own Arc.... And went on to have an interesting Battle with people like Orochimaru and Madara.... I think for a side character.... She did a lot more than Sakura will ever do in her whole life... 

And you said, Attack on Titans had women characters who have dreams, motivations and such... I never watched this series and I am writing this purely from my observation from Naruto fan’s discussion in Tumblr... 

“Set in a world where humanity lives inside cities surrounded by enormous walls due to the Titans, gigantic humanoid creatures who devour humans seemingly without reason, the story centers around Eren Yeager, his childhood friends, Mikasa Ackerman and Armin Arlert, whose lives are changed forever after the appearance of a Colossus Titan brings about the destruction of their home town and the death of Eren's mother. Vowing revenge and to reclaim the world from the Titans, Eren, Mikasa and Armin join the Survey Corps, an elite group of soldiers who fight Titans outside the walls.”

This is the description I see everywhere.... From what I can understand, Eren, Mikasa and Armin were pushed as the Main Characters of this series... Unlike with Naruto, this series has a female character in the Main Menu...

First, AoT and Naruto are not same.... Because Naruto is a Gay Media... Whereas AoT might have Gay characters... I don’t know and I am writing this purely on Fandom’s discussion... But it doesn’t have a Bond like SNS... So, Can I say it’s not a Full on Gay media???? 

Second, If Girls had great dreams and ambitions.... then why am I seeing this kind of views very often???

This is something I saw from one of the Naruto fan blog.... Added to that... this

Excuse me???? 

I can jump off from any mountain and boldly say... No other Characters could ever be as bad as Sakura in any other media.... But somehow Mikasa was always compared to Sakura by a large amount of people...

I know fandom dudebros are shit... They are disgusting and I get it... 

But if Mikasa, the Main Character were written to be really strong with multiple layers, then how come such a divisive opinions arise from the Fandom??? People can criticize Mikasa’s decision in certain Plots and Arcs... That’s totally different... They can claim she is Bad or Evil or what not... But why comparing to Sakura??? 

With Naruto series, I can cite Gayness as the reason and also Sakura was never pushed as the Main Character by the Author... But what reason does AoT author has to not make Mikasa equally strong with her Male Counterparts like Eren and Armin???? 

I don’t understand this Shonen thing... AT ALL... 

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To finish off this post....

This post’s intention is not to change people’s opinion... It’s just my thoughts as to why I feel Kishimoto is not a Misogynistic Monster as the Fandom makes him out to be... Because Naruto Fandom is totally weird and it has a persistent habit of Blaming the Author for everything that they can’t understand... And the sole intention for writing this reply post is to make people see the important Aspects of Story Telling, Author’s motivation and Genre... And then come to a judgement rather than jumping into a quick conclusion without considering any of these... 

This Author is insanely obsessed about the bond between N and S to the point of creating 4 other parallel bonds which failed in certain aspects... He wanted to show that what makes N and S different from any of those other parallel bonds... And if he was this much obsessed about this Bond, then I am pretty sure he would throw any character under the Bus to emphasize SNS... Male and Female alike...

There are so many Misogynistic Tropes in Media like... Gratuitous R*pe, Killing off Main Female Characters to push the narrative of Male Lead, Characters slut shaming another Characters, Romanticizing Abusive relationship like Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey shits... (which were also written by women), Portraying Hinata as this ideal waifu but dissing other Women Characters, Blatant Sexualization where women were just used as a Sex Doll for the Male Character to achieve and there are so many.... Of all the Tropes I’ve mentioned above, Naruto don’t even qualify under one... 

Instead of sexualizing a female character, he ended up sexualizing Sasuke (Sasuke on Sai jutsu...???)... Instead of making a Woman Character as the trophy to achieve for his Male character, he ended up making Sasuke as the trophy which was achieved by Sakura... 

I acknowledge the fact that Women Characters in Naruto may look Lacklustre as compared to other Shonen... But Lacklustre is different from Bad Writing... The Author who wrote Sakura also wrote Saori, Granny Chiyo, Tsunade, Konan, Kushina... Yes, their presence is very less in the story because they are side characters... If he can write these women with a better & strong personality, then I am pretty sure he could’ve did a lot better for Sakura and Hinata too... But he won’t... Not if they come between his favourite boys....

But Will he ever write a woman to have any importance on N and S, in that way??? I don’t think so... He is totally selfish that way... Kishi wants N to be everything for S and S to be everything for N.... Can’t blame his desperation though...

And this is exactly why I am so baffled as to why SNS fans expect strong women characters from Naruto, when you all clearly believe it’s a Gay Media??? Which Gay movie has a best women character, I wonder???