#Love was the death of duty for Jon when he chose Arya over the NW

[reginarubie]

Full in agreement with the stealing motiff around Sansa. I would like to add another 2 instances.

Sandor trying to steal her during the Battle of Blackwater. Their conversation especially from his side is sexually charged(song as a euphemism for sex) paired with subjugation (pinning her down and manhandling her)which is a close parallel to what the Wildlings describe as "stealing" which is nothing more than a sanitized name for rape and abduction.

Another is Baelish stealing her away from the clutches of her own husband during Purple Wedding and framing him for murder by staging that dwarf joust in order to make him look guilty and make her a widow.

Ciao!

Of course, you're completely right, the whole unkiss deal is a void vessel of what is supposed to be ‘Jonsa’.

The entirety of it, even after it, when Sansa's remembers it is sexually charged in a way that is dangerous (she remembers a kiss that did not happen, by cruel lips that press against her — which as I've said in another meta, x — is a way for her to romanticize the abuse she suffered as the cruel lips are the cruel bite of the dagger against her throat and the pressing is supposed to remind us that the Hound was pressing her, a little girl to her bed whilst he demanded a song from her for her life).

And also Baelish whisking her away during Joff's wedding, framing Tyrion as the murderer (and her as well as complicit to him) in the attempt to make of her a widow. This second one it's because in this Sansa is playing the part both of Lady Stark and the bastard who killed the father pertaining LF (Baelish) in the parallel with Bael the Bard and his story (a parallel so cunning that the lady Stark fo the story, who loved Bael, flung herself from a tower when she learned of his death; whilst Lysa, who loved LF, was killed by pushing her through the moon door, falling to her death) like I have analyzed in this meta, xx.

I think it's because Jon and Sansa refused in a way to be stolen/steal with the other possible partners:

Jon denies having ever stolen Ygritte, and though he does think he loved her, he still chose the Watch over her, and didn't let his love for her ‘steal’ him from his duty;

Jon thought of taking up Stannis' offer and marry Val, become Lord of Winterfell and take it back from the Boltons saving Arya, to have sons to his own name. But in the end he refuses that and rejects Stannis' offer, defending Sansa's right to Winterfell as, as far as he knows, Bran and Rickon are both dead, Robb is dead making Sansa the rightful lady of Winterfell;

Sansa does sing for the Hound, but does not follow him, and even though he asks for Florian and Jonquil, instead Sansa sings to him the Hymn of the Mother; rejecting any romantic hues in their relationship;

Sansa does go with LF, who frames everything as if he is defending her. He teaches her how a harp (thus the gift of communication) can be as deadly and dangerous as a sword in the right hands, and whilst Sansa plays her role well because she is led to believe it's the only way to stay alive, she never forgets who she is, and she'd sooner flee both LF and Petyr Baelish (the man and the mask) if only she knew where to run — cue in the news that Jon has made Lord Commander of the NW.

So, Sansa/Hound and Sansa/LF as well as Jon/Ygritte and Jon/Val, are only void vessels of what Jon and Sansa actually want and possibly might find in each other.

Also yes, the whole deal of the Hound going to Sansa that night and to a degree respecting her choice to stay back instead than go with him, is reminiscent of the whole wildling custom of ‘stealing’, as for the way it's framed in their culture the woman must consent to it by letting herself being stolen and is entitled to fight against it. Whilst I agree with you that the entire idea of it, which is sadly based off real customs, is often that of sanitized name for rape and abduction, Martin tries to frame it differently. Especially as I've analyzed in the piece about the unkiss I linked above how in several instances the phrasing of “cruel mouth”/“cruel lips” is used as a metaphor for weapons/blades which again begs the similarity with the Wildling custom of stealing through violence against the will of the woman or by being fought by her.

Thank you, I had not linked the whole of Hound/Sansa unkiss debacle with the stealing custom, though it's clearly linked to it!

As always I wish you a very nice day and send all my love ~G.

[jackoshadows]

" Love is the bane of honor, the death of duty. What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms ... or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy." - Maester Aemon

This must be one of the most overused quotes both in fandom and on the show to justify or theorize on Jon’s actions.

Before season 8,  ‘Love is the death of duty’ was used in some ridiculously stupid theories that include Jon not bothering to fight ice zombies and instead rushing to save his true love Sansa from evil Dany or sexually manipulating Dany for his true love Sansa and so on. On the show, they used it to justify Jon having to kill Dany since as per Tyrion, duty is the death of love.  

Here’s the thing these folks don’t seem to get. This is a plot point that’s already been resolved with Jon over the first 5 books.

This quote basically served two purposes. One was the hint of Ned’s big secret - sacrificing his honor for Lyanna and baby Jon.

The second was Maester Aemon trying to explain to Jon about why the NW brothers are not allowed to marry and have family because of the conflicts that would arise between brothers in the NW. And he does this to make Jon understand why he cannot run away to help his father and brother like he wants to do. Jon does run away and is brought back by his friends and forgiven by LC Mormont and Jon accepts that his place is at the wall.

Forgive me, Father. Robb, Arya, Bran... forgive me, I cannot help you. He has the truth of it. This is my place. "I am... yours, my lord. Your man. I swear it. I will not run again” - Jon, AGOT

Here Jon chooses duty over love. As we see over the next 4 books, he does so again and again. Conflicted between helping family and friends as he keeps getting bad news, he chooses duty time and again. The human heart in conflict with itself. He gives up Ygritte to help the watch and she ends up dying.

She just smiled at that. "D'you remember that cave? We should have stayed in that cave. I told you so."

“We'll go back to the cave," he said. "You're not going to die, Ygritte. You're not."

“Oh." Ygritte cupped his cheek with her hand. "You know nothing, Jon Snow," she sighed, dying. - Jon VII ASOS

Jon has already chosen duty over his lover.

And finally we get to book 5 where fArya is now in Ramsay’s hands and Jon is mentally tortured the whole of ADwD at the idea of his little sister with Ramsay. And then he reads this:

I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … "I think we had best change the plan," Jon Snow said. ADWD - Jon XIII

This is the pivotal moment when Jon Snow finally says fuck this shit, to hell with all this duty nonsense and decides to lead an army of wildlings south of the wall to attack Ramsay - which leads to mutiny, assassination, wildlings and crows probably fighting and destroying each other in the next book and the end of the NW as a neutral institution of the realm.

And that’s the conclusion of this ‘Love or duty’ plot for Jon. He ended up choosing love over duty and paid the ultimate price.

Ironically,  Jon has this in common with the woman he despised - Catelyn Stark. Like Cat basically destroying Robb’s campaign by releasing Jaime for her daughters freedom, Jon’s mission to save Arya undermined and destroyed the NW as an institution.

Show Jon on the other hand is perennially stuck in ‘duty over love’ mode. Because this is GOT, and characters never grow or change or learn from their experiences or make different choices. They just keep doing the same things again and again. Because according to D&D this is the entertaining story telling that ‘mothers and NFL players’ want. 

So show Jon once again makes his weary trudge to Dany and once again chooses duty over love.

I don’t know if Jon is going to be killing Dany in the books or if she is going to die some other way. All I am pretty damn sure of is that whatever happens it’s NOT going to be about all this duty or love stuff. Because that shit’s done with in the books with respect to Jon and retreading old ground is just going to make for repetitive reading.

As of the last book, Jon Snow has made that choice and he chose the person he loves most in the world - Arya - over his duty to protect the realm.

[fedonciadale]

I sometimes wonder are Jonrya shippers just dense or being purposefully ignorant? They seem like teenagers with no inkling of what kind of relationships GRRM focuses on in his books. What Jon did for Arya is not very different from what Oberyn/Brandon did for their sisters. Brothers dying for their sisters is a pattern in asoiaf and (surprise!) neither Oberyn nor Brandon had anything but platonic love for Elia and Lyanna. In fact, Jon didn't just jump to his death for Arya (which is more like what Oberyn/Brandon did), he died after he received the Pink Letter and had no option but to break his vows (which he broke thinking of all his siblings: it wasn't exclusively for Arya) as he couldn't give Ramsay what he wanted. It was to save the NW and the wildlings, to take back Winterfell and yes, to look for and save Arya. It is more accurate to say he chose his love for Arya over his duty/honor, which is another established pattern with the Starks. Ned did this for Lyanna and Sansa, Jon did for Arya. I've never read anyone calling what Ned did for Sansa "cute". Jonrya shippers are so weird, I wonder if they even care for Jon besides their weirdo ship. Jon dying wasn't "cute", it was tragic. (And if you actually pay attention, you'll know that Jon "forgetting" about Sansa is authorial intent, esp since even after "forgetting" about her, his thoughts on her are vastly different from his thoughts on Arya, which is why we ship them. We aren't weirdos romanticizing a brother wanting to muss his sister's hair, when he wants brushed hair for his love interest.)

Hi there!

I suspect it’s both. But as long as they’d stay in their corner, I wouldn’t actually mind.

I agree with you about how the Jon/Arya dynamic is mirrored by other siblings: Ned/Lyanna maybe even more than Brandon/Lyanna.

Ned thinks quite often about Lyanna, just like Jon thinks about Arya, and in about the same way. Ned thinks rarely about Catelyn, but when he does it is meaningful and deep. Just like the rare moments when Jon thinks about Sansa:

Sansa would call this an enchantment, and tears would fill her eyes at the wonder of it, ....

Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow.

If GRRM would want us to think that Jon doesn’t know who Sansa is, he would just have left thoughts about Sansa out alltogether.

But he doesn’t.

You know, it’s like carefully placed drum beatings in a symphony. They are rare, but you notice them, and you should notice them.

Thanks for the ask!

[fortunatelylori]

"Everyone who's crossed her she's found a way to murder." I can definitely see this going through Jon's mind if Sansa is kidnapped. Sansa and Arya were used as baragining chips in S1 for Robb but he chose not to go to KL. Also, when Jon found out "they" were being held there he initially was going to go but was talked out of it and chose to honor his vows. I think this will come back too. Conflict of the heart. "You'd think of little else if you had too." (tbc...)

I think Jon will be consumed by this at this pt. So to make the stakes higher I think both the WW and Sansa getting kidnapped (if this does happen) will happen simultaneously. While I think Sansa and Cersei will have another showdown and Sansa being in KL against her will check so many boxes I can’t just can’t figure out why. Why kidnap and not just murder? Why would she think Jon would come when Robb didn’t? Could LF might have told her something about their relationship?

Also, if both Cersei and the WW happen at the same time then both of them will be right as far as who to be concerned about. How do you see this plot unfold? What will Jon’s conflict be at this point? What will he decide? What role will Dany play in this? I would love your thoughts on this. Thank you!

Hey, nonnie!

I have to say … this kidnapping plot is slowly taking over my life. :))))) I’ve been thinking about it a lot actually. And while the more time passes, the more I’m convinced it will happen, the details of it are still a little fuzzy for me. 

So I guess I could start by saying why a kidnapping of Sansa by Cersei makes sense and what story boxes it would tick if it were to happen. After all, you don’t make a plot choice if it doesn’t help you achieve certain goals both thematically and in terms of story progression: 

1. It would bring Sansa and Cersei face to face again: this is VERY important for a number of reasons. Sansa was Cersei’s “little dove”, the girl she attempted to mold to her will but also despised because she saw her as being weak and naive. Their relationship is rife for dramatic exploration and I don’t know any writer worth his salt that wouldn’t want to tap into that, particularly now that Sansa has grown and developed and they could flip the dynamic on its head, showing what Sansa has learned from all of her tormentors, Cersei included. This is also important because Sansa needs to go back to her: “If I am ever queen, I will make them love me” mentality. Right now she’s vacillating and the question of her admiring Cersei hangs in the air, as per Jon’s observation. The simplest way for Sansa to fully reject Cersei’s worldview is by being faced with her once again, and choosing to the the Queen that people love, not the Queen that people fear. It’s kind of a play on being faced with who you might become if you choose one road instead of another, sort of thing.  

2. The Younger, More Beautiful Queen: this prophecy has tormented Cersei her entire life and it’s bound to conclude in its final act. If Sansa is the younger, more beautiful queen that will cast Cersei down and take all that she holds dear, it makes sense that she would be present for Cersei’s demise, whatever that might be. I say present because while Sansa was involved for most of Cersei’s tragedies, she was never the party responsible, she inadvertently found herself involved and I hope the pattern continues because I like the idea of prophecies not being played straight and that Cersei herself is ultimately responsible for her own downfall. 

3. Sansa is the princess in the tower with no prince to save her: for all the complaining that people do that Sansa can’t do anything for herself and she always needs saving, the sad fact of the matter is Sansa has never truly been saved by anyone. As she herself puts it to LF: She’s taken from monsters that murdered her family and given to other monsters that murdered her family. Her “rescues” are simply an exacerbation of her confinement. No one saves her. The one that comes closest is Theon but it’s Sansa that pushes him to that point and thematically speaking this action is linked more to Theon regaining his identity that Sansa Stark being saved. Also, her reunion with Jon did not truly bring liberation because she was still stuck with LF and also her trauma has made her close herself off and put herself in a sort of emotional cage. 

As you mentioned, Robb actually refuses to risk the ire of his men to go and try to save Sansa so she’s never truly a priority for someone, nor is she the goal, as the princess in the tower trope lays out. So to finally see someone make Sansa their priority and come to rescue her, despite all other consideration, would be a fulfilling arc. Particularly since Sansa keeps saying that no one can protect her. People have taken this to mean that Sansa doesn’t want protection because she can take care of herself. I don’t think that’s it at all. Sophie Turner said that when Sansa reunites with Jon, it’s the first moment of happiness Sansa has felt in years because she’s finally with someone who will take care of her and look after her. So I think Sansa is still looking for that prince to protect her and save her. She just doesn’t believe that exists anymore. So maybe it’s time she be proven wrong. 

4. Jon has a choice to make: Jon has been teased with a choice between love and duty since season 1 and he’s always chosen duty. But there were always extenuating circumstances to his choice. When he wanted to join Robb’s campaign, Joer Mormont pointed out that fighting the WW was more important on the grand scheme of things. Also Jon, at the time, was still the outcast, bastard of Winterfell, looking to forge his new identity. When he chose the NW over Ygritte, he had already made up his mind that he was a brother of the NW and that’s where his life was (he tells Ygritte: I have to go home now) and also justified by the fact that Ygritte violent tendencies pushed him away in any case.  However, in the end the loyalty that Jon showed to the NW was betrayed when he was killed by the very people who called themselves his brothers. When he came back from the dead, he was a man without a purpose or a plan (a weird thing for Jon Snow). It was Sansa that gave that to him, pushed him back into action so it would be easy to assume that whatever determination Jon might have now to fight the WW, protect the North and whatever else is inextricably linked to her. So what happens if she’s in danger? Will Jon’s choice between love and duty be as easy to make as it was in the past? I’d argue no. Because Sansa is not only his love, but his duty as well. He’s sworn to protect her time and time again and her safety and well being are paramount to him. So this time we’re going to watch Jon choose love and what a sight that will be!  

5. Tension must be added to the Jon/D*ny dynamic: And the parentage reveal is not enough. Because D*ny finding out Jon is a rival for the throne she’s been dreaming about since season 1 is a political matter. Her seeing him lose his mind over the possibility of Cersei hurting Sansa is a deeply personal one. I always found it interesting that D*ny wasn’t there to witness Jon’s interaction with Theon on the beach and see his reaction when Theon brought up Sansa. But I’m willing to bet good money she’ll have a front row seat to Jon Snow going berserk because “his sister” is in danger. It will probably be the last nail in the coffin for the already doomed Jon/D*ny alliance. Also, at some point, Jon is going to ride Rhaegar, I’m almost 100% sure of that. No way the writers are passing up the opportunity to have their number 1 hero mount a dragon or have this Dance of Dragons 2.0 end without a Jon/D*ny showdown on dragon back. So what better time for Jon to steal Rhaegal than when he needs to get to KL really, really fast?

6. Jaime and Cersei need to meet again: For one I believe that Jaime is the younger brother who will choke Cersei to death. For two, Cersei’s storyline is so marked by wildfire that it would be weird not to have the man most traumatized by wildfire be there to stop her from using it (which I believe will be the reason why he ends up killing her, paralleling his killing of the Mad King). Jaime and Cersei’s relationship is so toxic and tragic that it needs to end in the same vein, and “I don’t believe you” and a quick exist North ain’t gonna cut it. We know Jaime is going North to join the fight against the WW so the kidnapping plot might bring him back to KL, of his own accord or perhaps as Jon’s hostage. (he’s going to need some kind of leverage against Cersei, right? Who better than the only person left in the world Cersei actually cares about?)

7. The feelings reveal needs to happen somehow: At some point Jon and Sansa will need to confess their love for each other. So … what better time in terms of full emotional impact than after they’ve been separated and they thought they’d die/never see each other again? 

8. The writers need to connect the Winterfell/WW plot to the King’s Landing plot: I mean what is Cersei going to do for at least 3 episodes? Walk around the Red Keep counting the villages she’s taken back from D*ny with the help of the Golden Company? I mean, that would be the smart thing to do. Why march your armies into the North, in the dead of winter, with a zombie apocalypse underfoot? But then again, if characters acted smart and rational all the time, we’d have much more boring plot lines, wouldn’t we? The kidnapping of Sansa can bring the two narrative threads together. 

So both in terms of plot expediency as well as arc completion, the kidnapping plot neatly solves all sorts of issues as well as add drama and the all important cliff hangers GOT loves. 

As for how it will unfold … I think what we’re truly missing in order to see the full picture is the: Why? Why does Cersei kidnap Sansa at this juncture in the story? She could have already done it in season 7, when Jon was away on Dragonstone. It would have been a hell of a lot easier to do than now, during the Long Night, with dragons circling Winterfell and huge armies fighting zombies. Unfortunately, I don’t have a clear answer to this. Something needs to happen … some unforeseen plot development that convinces Cersei to send her men to capture Sansa. What that might be, I’m not sure. 

But it will probably also be the answer to your question about why kidnap Sansa and not just murder her. In addition to that, one other reason why Cersei wouldn’t just murder Sansa is because of the way that Cersei gets her revenge. If we look at her revenge against Septa Ornella and Ellaria Sand, we can see that Cersei is not content to only murder her enemies, she wants to dish out the same amount and type of torment that was inflicted on her by the parties responsible. I imagine she will want to do the same thing to Sansa. 

Could this happen simultaneously with the WW attack? Again, I don’t know. Feels like a lot to juggle but it could … Maybe the kidnapping happens during the WW final battle and Jon going to KL is the start of the Dance of Dragons part of the story line? Maybe Jon steals Rhaegal to go rescue Sansa and D*ny pursues him on Drogon? Just ideas at this point …

One theory I do have is that Cersei need not attack Winterfell to get Sansa. After all, Cersei did promise to help against the WW. That would mean that the Winterfell gang, at least in theory, will be waiting for her tropes to arrive. Any day now … Almost there … There they are! They show up, Winterfell opens their gates and boom, somewhere during the night, Euron (it would need to be Euron, wouldn’t it? he’s the only one crazy enough to attempt it particularly if Cersei commits to marrying him) and his merry men abduct Sansa. Now imagine the fall out from that decision, the guilt that Jon would feel that he allowed them to walk through the gates, the angst, the torment! That would be great! So? In his desperation, he steals Rhaegal (and possibly Jaime) and goes to KL. The reason why I’m so attached to Jon stealing Rhaegal at this juncture is that atop a dragon, Jon has more of a chance of getting out there alive with Sansa, than if he were to travel by boat. I mean he needs to take precautions, despite whatever Cersei might say/promise. He’s not a moron. 

As for what happens in KL,it’s anyone’s guess at this point because again we must return to that pesky: why. Although I have to say, that whatever might happen, it won’t be that pretty for Sansa. I don’t see any way it could be. In the end, she will triumph but it will be an angst riddled couple of weeks for all of us.  

If anyone has scenarios to share here, please feel free. 

Thank you for the ask, nonnie!

[jackoshadows]

Jon has already chosen Love over Duty for ARYA.

Dear Sansa fans,

Stop giving Arya’s plots, themes and narratives to Sansa. If you don’t like your fave based on her story, her plot, her themes, her narratives and her side characters and have to resort to giving her the relationships and themes of other characters then you never really liked her in the first place.

The North plot in the books was about ARYA. It was about Arya’s importance to the North and Winterfell. It was about Arya’s importance to Jon. It was about Jon putting love over duty for the one person he loved above all. It was about Theon’s redemption in trying to save a nobody like Jeyne Poole.  It was about the ‘North remembers’ and the North fighting back against the traitorous Freys, Boltons and Lannisters. It was about Stannis trying to do the right thing and failing.

So stop trying to make the fArya plot about Sansa in the books. Sansa currently has nothing to do with this plot in the books. She is not the grey girl - that is Alys, she is not going to the wall - that was Alys, she is not going to push Jon to fight against Ramsay - Jon already rallied the Wildlings to fight by himself, she is not going to have to do anything with Ramsay - he is Theon and Jon’s antagonist. 

Jon’s arc throughout ADwD was that he had to decide between love and duty. He chose duty each time before when it came to Ned, Robb. Bran and Rickon. But when it comes to Arya, he is agonized when he thinks of her married to Ramsay (In Stark contrast to his complete indifference to Sansa married to the enemy!). In the end he rallies the Wildlings to go attack WF with a bad-ass speech in the shield-hall and is killed because he put love over duty.  When he comes back, he is going to be even more determined to go kick Ramsay’s ass (as per GRRM, a resurrected person is even more focused on his last mission) - after time spend in Ghost, the darker, wolfish Jon is going to resemble the kings of winter and does not need Sansa frigging Stark to push him to fight.

Ramsay married Arya to hold the North. The mountain clans are marching with Stannis in harsh weather conditions to save Ned’s precious little girl Arya. The Northerners inside WF are plotting against the Boltons to save Arya.

The armies are set to clash at the beginning of the next book - we know that GRRM moved the battle of Ice from ADwD to TWoW. Jon is lying dead, the Wildlings and an angry giant are roaming around loose, the crows are outnumbered, Mel is there with her visions. The NW is a mess. Alys/Thenn marriage has now linked the Wildlings to the North. Jeyne is on her way to the wall. Theon and Asha are with Stannis and Bran is already communicating with Theon through the weirwoods.

While all this is going on full speed up North, Sansa is organizing a tourney for the knights of the Vale and busy plotting with LF to marry Harry the Heir. That’s her story. The show found her Vale story too boring (Like her fans) and dumped her up North - ultimately Sansa’s story is about taking down LF. This could be done using the North setting as well and they could combine plots and characters. The North plot in the books was too vast and extensive for them to adapt to the TV show anyways.

Book Sansa will definitely run into Arya again because they have issues to resolve as per GRRM - and these are serious issues unlike in the show. Book Sansa’s betrayal was what led to Arya going on the run, Jeyne Poole getting stuck with LF and Ned’s death. But I doubt Book Sansa and Jon even meet let alone have a story together. GRRM has never been invested in their relationship and seems to have no interest in doing so. He is too busy exploring the deep love Jon and Arya have for each other.