#TROKR theorizing

[eirenare]

“The Rise of Kylo Ren” + TROS theory (with TROKR pics)

I’ll probably look like a clown in 16-17 days when “The Rise of Kylo Ren” #2 releases but whatever lol—after TROS I believe even more that the former leader of the Knights of Ren (Ren) is Ben from another timeline or a future gone (more) wrong

Anyways, my thoughts on this:

1) remember the outrageous “Ben sets the temple ablaze and runs away” from the Visual Guide? I’m sure it’s probably just even more retconning (like a ton of stuff from the VD), but what if it’s literal—except it’s just that the Ben who does it isn’t the Ben we know, therefore making it true while retaining “our” Ben’s innocence. Another option (painful but, I think, absolutely plausible) is that Ben himself accidentally set on fire the temple with his rage and sorrow unleashing a Force storm. However, the way the “prologue” of TROKR #1 ends (I’ll talk about later on in this post) seems kind of like a foreshadowing that Ben (well, “our” Ben) didn’t do it...? Kind of interesting, and hopefully we won’t have to wait until issues #3 and #4 (february and march) to know about that important detail

2) this interview with Charles Soule (the writer) and Will Sliney (the artist) dedicates, curiously, the first 3-4 paragraphs solely to talking about Ren—and the article, which is from the official SW webpage (an article called “Introducing ‘Ren’ in Marvel’s The Rise of Kylo Ren”), starts like this: “they call him Ren, but that wasn’t always his name”. Which is also how the comic starts:

... Tell me this doesn’t sound suspicious as kriff and like foreshadowing

And the interview keeps going like this: “Born out of the flames,” as artist Will Sliney puts it, the leader of the Knights of Ren in the opening pages of the new comic Star Wars: The Rise of Kylo Ren #1, arrives battle-scarred and wearing a fearsome, featureless mask — a blank expression save for a smattering of claw-like gouges. Concealed within is a charismatic leader, the exact type of person who would be able to seduce young Ben Solo away from the path of the Jedi.” Then they basically proceed to spend the first 4 paragraphs talking a lot about Ren besides talking about Ben (and then, lastly, about Snoke—and, fun fact: they knew about the Snoke twist of TROS beforehand), although I think they talk less about Ben even

3) Ben being compared to Anakin while Ren is compared to Darth Vader, except Charles Soule wanted Ren to read “like a more charming Darth Vader. “A Vader who is charismatic and who is appealing. That’s why [Ren’s] skin is burned and he sort of looks the way that he does. He’s embracing the seductiveness and the damage that the dark side does. Darth Vader, as impressive and imposing and terrifying as he is, is remote and cold and distant because he has the suit surrounding him. Whereas Ren isn’t hiding behind it. He’s someone you could have a beer with, in theory.”

4) more interesting interview stuff. “Designed purposefully for the new comic series, with issue #1 out now, Ren feeds the evolution of Kylo Ren. “The entire seductiveness of the dark side poured into one character engineered for Ben Solo is Ren,” Soule says. “He’s sort of a charming evil rascal that can be really fun to write and I really like where he goes in the series. But if Kylo Ren is going to take over the Knights of Ren, which we know that’s what happens, there should be some transition.”

Also: “I think the key to writing Ben Solo is to write him as a lost teenager who is deeply in touch with emotions that teenagers often feel,” Soule says. “He feels like no one understands him, no one sees him the way he actually is, he’s utterly alone and there’s no one else out there in the universe. So when he sees Ren, he’s like, ‘Wait a minute — maybe there is somebody like me in the universe. Maybe there is a path for a guy like me. Look at the choices he’s made. I could make those choices, too, and I could be cool.’”

So... This is interesting. We have Snoke manipulating Ben to go to him, at first making himself appear friendly, while on some measure Palpatine’s pulling the strings from Snoke (I don’t think he would be like a puppet with Palps’ voice, though, given that chapter of the TLJ non-junior novelization that has a lot of stuff from Snoke’s perspective, but who knows). But then, Ben Solo’s basically obsessed with Vader... and, apparently, this Ren’s a walking dark side temptation for Ben. Well... We’ll see what happens, I guess

Also, crying inside at reading that “wait a minute—maybe there is somebody like me in the universe. Maybe there is a path for a guy like me. Look at the choices he’s made. I could make those choices, too, and I could be cool”. If Ren really was Ben from another time seeking to change things (probably something related to Rey): the implications that this has, the emotions that this has, the power that this has

Interesting, too, that it hasn’t been said if it’s Snoke who’s “the master” of the KoR (yes, they do have a master on top of their own leader), but that only gets weirder because the KoR were revealed time ago to be only loyal to their leader and to the “Ren philosophy” (which also makes possible ties with Snoke alone impossible)—so, if Snoke and the First Order aren’t, then who is it? Palpatine? Still, again, there’s the philosophy thing of following only their group leader...

Oh and: the Ren philosophy sounds very intriguing and I’m liking it a lot

(For context of the next pics: there are two brothers, being one of them Force-sensitive, and both the KoR and someone called SecSec are trying to recruit them—but the non-Force-sensitive one kills the other, which means the KoR doesn’t accept him, and Ren kills him)

5) just after that panel, in this pic below they talk a bit about “the master” here, being Ren who says it. Also it’s interesting that, after that happens, the KoR part ends with Ren saying "let’s go find something to burn”:

After that there’s a page as if this kind of prologue has finished, showing a page with the logo of the comic and all that... and then, next page it’s Ben standing in front of the fire and ruins of the temple all shocked (a note here: on that page it reads “now” and the name of the location, and the “prologue” happened “long ago”). I’d say that really looks like foreshadowing...

Now the thing is... If the KoR are not affiliated in any way with the First Order nor Snoke, and the KoR is only interested in recruiting Force-sensitives for their ranks, then how come they could’ve arrived in Luke’s Jedi temple... just at that right time to burn it down? I mean, right, there can be coincidences, but— uh, that might be a bit too much of a coincidence, perhaps? Who knows...

6) interview intensifies. “Born out of the flames”, is how Sliney describes Ren—well, thought it was worth mentioning this because guess what mythological being is born out of the flames too. Also, funny the parallel between that and the publisher’s summary of “The Rise of Kylo Ren” #3 (scheduled for February 12th): “Soon, BEN SOLO'S path will end in a place of fire and blood, and a shadow will rise to take his place. He is with the KNIGHTS OF REN now, and they will welcome him, if he can pay their price.” Well, given that “our” Ben starts becoming Kylo Ren after what happens at the temple, and that they describe Ren (referring to the former leader of the KoR) like being “born out of the flames”... this does nothing to deterr me from believing this theory, to be honest

7) more from the interview. “ The creative team engineered some surprises for this charming dark sider, a foil in many ways to Darth Vader hiding beneath his protective covering. “You expect the dude hiding his face under a mask like that to be all messed up, particularly with his body looking the way it does,” Soule says. But in issue #2 we’ll see what he’s truly concealing, a reveal that speaks to Ben on a whole other level” … This whole paragraph, I swear. Sounds like when they talked in the times between TFA and TLJ about Ben’s face behind his mask, and about his unmasking. Also, the talk about the face reveal…

What kind of “reveal that speaks to Ben on a whole other level” could it be? I don’t think they’d be referring to that with something more going on in his face, as in, scars or charred skin. In fact, it wouldn’t make sense for Ren to cover that up given that he shows with pride his scarred body

And faces of men he might know? The probabilities just lower and narrow soooo much here. We have yet to see, however, if Ben gets the reveal as a kid or an adult, which could make a difference. Still, back to “what man could this guy be”, I just can’t think of someone that he’d recognize and have this impact on him... ... And now it’s when it’s a Ben clone from another timeline, lol

8) that big panel on “The Rise of Kylo Ren” #2 where the KoR and Ren are facing Luke, Ben and Lor San Tekka, and Ben and Ren seem to mirror poses:

9) this is jut something that came to my mind, but… It still bugs me to this day the phrase “it is you” that Ben says regarding Rey on the TFA novelization (when she calls forth the Legacy lightsaber), because Ben didn’t know back then about them being a dyad, nor have we seen any mentions to him having dreamt of Rey before or anything—so maybe Ben’s encounter (encounters? Still not sure about it) with Ren involved Ren telling him something that will happen in the future? Something which could also tackle that random “which girl?”

The sad thing, if Ren was really Ben from the future? Like I said in my previous post about this teory (pre-TROS): ... that Ben would’ve literally killed himself, and therefore made true what he told Han that his son is dead and that he’d killed him (which then is reversed in TROS with that “Kylo Ren is dead, my son is alive”). That would be such a kriffing trauma for Ben that I don’t know if I could stomach it, after seeing Ben’s death in TROS... I mean, we would literally be seeing another Ben die... even if somehow his actions meant a worse future would have been avoided

Anyways my brain seems to find fuel in angst (why), because now reading “Ren” only makes me think of Ben’s name but taking on the “R” from Rey if in that future something happened to her...  (Or that the Knights would be called “of Ren” in reference to Ben and Rey)

... And now it’s when we’ve been played like a fiddle all along and the novels, with their differences/expanded material as hints (like the “it is you” in the TFA novelizations), are but one of the timelines. Can you imagine? To cite the TLJ non-junior novelization: “time is a circle. The end is the beginning”. At this point I believe anything could happen, specially after seeing TROS and how wtf it’s all that surrounds it...

10) to finish the post, the thing that made me start thinking Ren could be Ben: the hair that peeks from below the helmet looks apparently like Ben’s both in shape and color (an interesting detail is how the color of their hair seems to match in tone: in issue #1 it’s brownish for the both of them even though one’s surrounded by fire and the other by ice, and on the preview pages of issue #2 their hair is shown black). And in a universe so diverse as SW, and given that Ren and Ben are characters so connected, that’s a pretty... interesting choice. Here are some more images for comparison between Ben and Ren:

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TROKR hype + 5 preview pages (with text)

Okay, so 5 preview pages from “The Rise of Kylo Ren” #2 (NOT the first 5 pages, though, just 5 pages of it) are out and I’m here just bouncing in happiness because:

we’re getting it tomorrow instead of in a week (I’m still surprised as heck about this, but not like I’m gonna complain lol just give it to me)

younger Ben Solo is a little (I think his age in that flashback would be, like, between 12 and 14?) courageous, adorable treasure that loves and respects so much his uncle aksdbflhflgng my heart

PETRA-STYLE JEDI TEMPLE that I wanted badly to see (reason why I have one in my “Rey of Jakku” fic lol) and thought we might see in TROS, which is now funny because TROS didn’t provide but TROKR does

relics inside of the temple include HOLOCRONS (and not just some holocrons, no, the red triangle and blue cubes from “Galaxy’s Edge”), something I was sure TROS would have but didn’t. I swear, if there’s a holocron fusion and/or opening moment at some point I’m going to scream in excitement

“Well, hello there”, “yeah? Well, I’m Ren. These are the Knights of Ren. And we’re legendary”. The sass, the cockiness of Mr. Hottie McHotHot Ren *chef kiss*

the more I see of the leader of the Knights of Ren, the harder it is for me to stop thinking that he’s Ben from another timeline or the future trying to change the past (and I know it’s highly probable that it won’t be him, but just let me clown and have my dose of hope lol)

Luke telling Ren he’s “wrong, so wrong”, and that he himself is “the last jedi though not for long”? gives me vibes of Luke’s talk with Ben at Crait when he tells him that every word he said was wrong and that he wouldn’t be the last jedi—and I think he’s also wearing the same black cloak/tunic?

there are 2 wolves inside of me: one is convinced that Ren is future/alternate Ben, the other thinks its gonna be a certain other character and that I’m gonna be in kriffing shock—so yeah can that man just be Ben so we can have some WBW stuff going on at some point in the future? *looks sideways at Rey’s interest in dimensions stuff written in the Jedi text books* Also I wanna be able to keep writing/drawing Rey + Ren/Ben without fear of who might be below the mask lol

well, guess we’ll soon know if I was wrong or right (me? Nervous? HahAHAHAH NAAHHH I’m just screaming inside) because Charles Soule said in an interview that “in issue #2 we’ll see what he’s truly concealing, a reveal that speaks to Ben on a whole other level”

the official Marvel website where they showed the previews has written between a pair of pages the already seen “Voices call from both his past and his future, telling Ben who he must be. He will shatter, he will be reforged, his destiny will be revealed. Ben Solo’s path to his true self begins here...” and I’m just here sitting all excited and nervous and feelsy, screaming at the clock but not going to bed yet ‘cause hi it’s me your dumb local owl

Here are the full previews they uploaded:

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The Rise of Kylo Ren #3: preview pages + some talk and theorizing/speculating (the meaning of “Ren”?)

Tomorrow we’re getting “The Rise of Kylo Ren” #3 and I’m so nervous and excited! (And also pained but well that’s what happens after TROS when you like Ben Solo, extra pain is included sadly)

I kept doing some comparisons on the part of TLJ with Rey hearing voices in the mirror cave of Ahch-to and YUP it definitely doesn’t sound like younger Rey’s voice *grabs the popcorn and looks at the TFA novelizations with the “strange boy” appearing in Rey’s vision and staring at her*

I swear if Ben had been having visions or dreams with Rey across time/space (or the both about the other) when they were little kids I’m going to do the loudest “aww” in existence, because it’s been a headcanon I’ve had for a long time and it’s one of my fave things to imagine honestly

And damn... the preview pages of TROKR #3? *chef kiss* Knights of Ren in a bar? Unexpected, but I like it. Ren being pure beef and a god of manspreading? I love it. But the most important thing: Ben. Ben being Ben. A sweet boy. A good boy. The best boy

Hopefully besides Ben’s background they’ll touch a bit more the one of the KoR, even if it’s broad strokes, because I like these dumbasses and I wish they would’ve been more important overall

I’m still on my thoughts that Ren could be Ben from the future or another timeline. But regardless of if he’s or not, it’d surprise me if Ren wasn’t who Ben had to kill to offer “a good death” to the KoR to join them after what we’ve read. Given the fact that in that interview in the official SW page Charles Soule and Will Sliney talked about how Ben seemed to have admiration for Ren, I can see why he’d end up being the “good death”—unless Ben killed no one to be accepted in the group and he got in (maybe just a “show” of the “shadow” would make them change their mind?)

... If my brain could stop offering me very cursed theories about Ren (the former leader), though, I’d love that

Also, how I made myself cry internally thinking of the meanings of “Ren”:

this one I knew it already, but for some reason I never got around to talk about it. “Ren” is a Japanese name that apparently means “water lily”, “lotus flower” and “love” *stares at Padmé* I mean, it can be coincidence, but if it’s not, either they went with the “since these are deleted concepts for Ben let’s call them Knights of Ren for a parallel with Padmé and her doubles”, or there’s more to it

... this one’s very feelsy, brace yourselves. According to the ancient Egyptians, the soul had many different parts (Ren, Ba, Ka, Sheut, Ib), being “Ren” the part meaning the name given to a person at birth, the “secret name”, the identity of the person. They believed it was a part of a person’s soul that would live for as long as that name was spoken or the person remembered

That Egyptian meaning, I swear— *muffled crying against a pillow*

But well, moving forward, this preview panel that Charles Soule posted on Twitter is curious. I think it doesn’t happen in a fight against the Jedi trio of Luke’s temple, but about Ben and Ren, but we’ll see (in some hours asdbflfg can’t it be out already?):

ALSO the last panel of the last page?? Ben... Such a little angel... Must protecc... *crying intensifies* I mean, look at it for yourselves (and goodness gracious every time I look at that girl in the last panel I can’t help but think she looks like kid Rey and I’m feelsy about it):

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Hmmmmm okay, now this is a curiosity I hadn’t noticed in “The Rise of Kylo Ren” up until now

We know that Ben’s eyes are brown, so then why are his eyes in TROKR, when he’s younger (adolescent?) always colored grey or blue-grey (in fact, 2 panels, one with his face on profile and the other looking to the front, are bright blue), but when he’s older, they’re always some tone of brown (which is how we’ve always seen his eyes and how, according to the TFA junior novelization, Han remembered Ben’s eyes—although to be fair, we don’t know exactly when was the last time they crossed paths) except for, again, a pair of panels...

It’s interesting to see this consistency of blue/grey eyes applied to Ben

I have a feeling that this is probably just something they did for coloring/art reasons or something like that, but seeing this being so consistent still feels kind of weird to me... Probably crazy question here, but could it be a variation of “play with the dark side and you end up with yellow eyes”, except Ben never got to that stage and his eyes changed color due to the dark influence that Snoke has had over him before Ben was even born?

Maybe I should do a compilation of close-ups or something, it’s very interesting (and Ben looks cool too with greyish/blue eyes too)

Anyways, I’m just gonna pick up from the floor my “Ren > Ben from the future/alternate timeline” theory and dust it a bit just in case lol (I’d love for this to be the case and not any of the very cursed theories my brain came up with asbdlfbfkg I really need World Between Worlds stuff with Ben and Rey), because if they changed eyes like this, maybe there could still be a probability that Ren’s eyes either aren’t truly blue or that there’s something weird going on with Ben’s eyes

Also here’s a bonus preview panel that Charles Soule (writer of TROKR) posted of Ben from issue #3 (that, unless it gets out earlier or delayed, the release date should be February 12th) with greyish-blue eyes:

“Is that what you want me to be?” sounds... pretty interesting *grabs the popcorn*

Can’t wait for issue #3 honestly, hoping they release it a week earlier than planned like they did with #2 because I have a mighty need of more Ben and more backstory stuff

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Am I still awake, very very late in the night, analyzing the audio of “The Last Jedi” because at first I was documenting myself for some fic-writing but proceeded to freak out when I realized one of the voices Rey hears in the mirror cave of Ahch-to could maybe be Ben’s when he was a child?  Y U P

Am I unable to stop thinking (again) that if “The Rise of Kylo Ren” features younger Ben having a vision of Rey I’m going to die? Abso-kriffing-lutely

Besides there’s the fact that in TFA, Rey’s vision always seem to have Ben involved in them (the novelizations specially, with the non-junior one saying there was a boy at the end of the hallway, and the junior one directly saying that there was “a strange boy” that stared directly at her), and that it seems as though the silhouettes she sees on the mirror of Ahch-to’s cave would be her and Ben’s alluding/hinting at their bond... So why couldn’t it be Ben’s voice in the cave? In TLJ is where we start getting the romantic and emotional stuff and way more about the past and all that, so honestly I don’t think it would be too farfetched, specially if we go “tinfoil hat mode” (which I usually do with the lore of my fave fictions, in part for fun, in part to cope, in part because it gets me all hyped) after TROS and all the World Between World hints

... Not to mention how much of a coincidence it is that Ben gets a vision of Rey’s parents, of what Rey wanted to see in the cave of Ahch-to, when they touched hands in the hut, in comparison to when Rey touched the cave mirror and her own hands touching and saw only herself... I’m totally on board of the train that when Rey had her vision in TFA, and later on saw this on the cave of Ahch-to, Ben experienced these too but on the opposite side

Also the absolute feeling of validation when I was watching the Uneti tree call to Rey, trying to distinguish what the voices where saying (English isn’t my mother language, but I think I’ve gotten pretty decent at this) and thinking they said things about the Jedi Code or Mantra, and then I stumbled upon an article with Ren Klyce, sound designer of TLJ, confirming it and that all the voices said then was in English (nothing invented)

I’m trying to write a more elaborated post about this, but honestly I was just so excited right now with these curiosities that I had to write and share now

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This would probably have no correlation/parallelism and mean nothing even if my “WBW-traveler Ren/Ben theory” was true, but my overanalyzing brain can’t stop thinking about it (first image for context):

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It’s been more than 24h since I read “The Rise of Kylo Ren” #2 so yeah, about time to share some thoughts!

First of all, and before I jump to all the other stuff of the comic I wanna talk about... Every page featuring Snoke (I do believe he both is and isn’t a puppet to Palpatine—I think Snoke is a clone that doesn’t know it’s a clone, honestly) talking to Ben I was cursing and wincing and mentally yelling at Snoke to leave poor Ben alone. And he was even talking with Ben while he was on that mission to the Jedi Outpost of Elphrona with Luke and Lor, back when Ben was much younger, and poor Ben really believed they were friends I— *muffled screaming* They really did a good job portraying the revolting predatory nature of Snoke, even though in the process it leaves you feeling disgusted about him and even more sorry for Ben

But well, leaving aside the kriffing bastard that’s Snoke, because I don’t wanna end up wanting to punch a pillow and I could use some positivity:

younger/adolescent Ben is a sweetie that admires Luke, he’s apparently curious about different weapons and wants to fly ships, and I love him so much

Lor San Tekka mentions Elphrona’s Jedi Outpost being from the High Republic era... *looks sideways at the supposed leaks of the next SW trilogy and Project Luminous* Which is even more interesting because apparently, according to the Wookieepedia, the 2019 Visual Guide says that there had been legends about the Knights of Ren for centuries in the Unknown Regions and adjacent territories and it’s unknown whether these are the original KoR, others who claimed that name, or something else... Judging by how Luke and Ben were able to take on them, I’d say they’re not powerful enough to be the original KoR (I mean... centuries of experience are centuries of experience), but who knows—I’d like to know more about them though, so if the leaks are real, and if they were to appear in Project Luminous (specially if they featured Ren), I’d certainly be very interested in that

Luke being a badass, with also some parts of his dialogue feeling kind of like the one he had on TLJ (blessed be TLJ)

Ren‘s face isn’t what I would’ve liked (hoped) the most to see underneath his mask (bye to my “Ren = alternate/future Ben” theory lol, but well, AUs exist for a reason) yet he’s kinda sending me to Horny Town and I think his design looks cool (greyish hair with tiny braids is: cool), but still... the character makes the “I have a bad feeling about this” alarm in my head go off, so I’m “kinda” guarded about him. I really, really hope that Ren doesn’t end up being a Snoke-level bastard and that he’ll be a different kind of villain (even though he’s probably just gonna die in next issue)

also is it me going crazy, or Ren unmasking before Ben to show him he’s “human” and apparently understands (”apparently”, because we still don’t know enough about Ren yet) looks like a parallel to when Ben unmasks before Rey?

also: Ben’s face when Ren unmasks is a mood for me, the same way it was a big mood for me to see for the first time unmasked Ben in TFA because back then I didn’t know who was the actor below, nor did I know Adam Driver either

Ren: *unmasks* / Ben, pre-teen: *gasps in bisexual*

Ben at 29: “well actually Ren’s tiddies kinda worked for me to go seek them later so... maybe... if unmasking didn’t work... ” *waits with tits out for the Force bond Skype connection with Rey*

I find amusing that Ren has all these tiny braids... like... did Ben when he saw his hairstyle recognize any significance to them, if Leia ever showed him about hairstyle traditions?

also Ren’s braids made me remember these wholesome photos of Adam Driver wearing his hair braided below the mask to keep the hair alright lol

the art style of the comic is amazing and the dialogue nice (Ren, dude, you look old enough that it wouldn’t be quite legit to call Luke “old man” lol)

there’s a reference with Ben’s name and Obi-Wan that Ben talks about, and how he hates his own name and surname—which makes the way he reacts to Rey saying “Ben” even more feelsy now. To quote Ben: “ow”

Ben trying on Ren’s mask years later to contact them through its communicating device: yes. Didn’t I want to see Ben in that mask? Ben in that mask it is then, lol, even though my whole theory plummeted

that weird "elsewhere” planet is... weird. Like, weird weird (and also, as said in the interview with Soule and Sliney, a good reflection of Snoke: looks nice, but on the not-so-inside it’s deeply rotten). It is said in the comic (Snoke says it) that “the people who built it were trying to hold back the dark. That was the entire point. To create an oasis of light in the great shadow”, and yet it’s absolutely impacting because you see skeletons here and there, and there’s still that weird broken throne in it. So yeah, I’m very interested in that planet actually and I’d love to know more about it honestly

Ben actually smiles, as in, sincerely smiles, after he tries on Ren’s mask to contact Ren to go to the Knights—precious Ben is precious

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Well... I had a pre-TROS theory that Ren from “The Rise of Kylo Ren” was Ben from a darker future/timeline seeking to change things, and that what we’re seeing is the new future with changes that happen because of it

So now, revisiting the theory to write about it post-TROS (and seeing the overall dumpster fire that’s TROS and its Visual Guide) feels like:

e v e r y t h i n g   h u r t s

... And it hurts even more now because, while I was writing this, my brain went all “hey but what if Ben changed to Ren to incorporate the “R” from Rey’s name because something bad that happened to her in his future/timeline?” and now the pain train’s mercilessly running over my chest in a loop asdbffnflgsdbfnfkgngkfggn KRIFF

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I’ve been kind of freaking out since these pages of “The Rise of Kylo Ren” #2 got revealed last night

[Reasons + some very very crazy theorizing/speculation for TROKR/TROS under the “read more”. Pleasepleaseplease don’t judge me too hard, I just love mindbending shit and I usually overanalyze a lot so yeah, this happened in my brain. ALSO, below there’ll be SPOILERS of: TROS (I talk about a specific described rating), TROKR, TFA novelizations, TLJ non-junior novelization.]

At first my mind didn’t go “crazy thoughts” mode, I was just looking at the way the hair of “Mr. Hottie McHotHot” (aka the previous leader of the Knights of Ren) peeked out of his helmet because that’s something I love to see in helmeted characters—and then it hit me

Of all the choices of hair (or hairless) you can do, specially in Star Wars, of all of them, you go and pick up, for the previous leader of the Knights of Ren... the same kind of hair that Ben has when he’s grown up: curly, short to the same degree, and black (in fact it seems it’s the same color used for Ben’s hair, if you take a good look at younger Ben in these pages)

But that’s not the only thing that leaves my brain uneasy, no... “Mr. Hottie McHotHot” and Ben seem to be mirroring each other’s pose

Like, look at that:

Honestly, it’s either a coincidence, a parallel made on purpose between both leaders, or there’s more to it

So yeah, we have a guy with a mask (remember what Adam Driver said just recently about masks? Something along the lines that masks always have an use? About what one may be hiding behind it?) that has a hair that’s super similar to Ben’s grown-up hair, mirroring his pose—right

It only gets better when you realize there’s something red wrapped around his left wrist. Doesn’t that feel familiar...? Oh, and, the reason why his body looks like that? He’s “burned all over his body” (words from Charles Soule himself on Twitter in response of a fan)...

... and there’s this rating, from the BBFC webpage, that says:

“Fights with fantastical weapons include impalements and brief sight of blood and injury. A character's face is melted by fantastical energy.”

Which, in Star Wars language, means: someone gets zapped by Force lightning—badly. Unless Palpatine regained a younger body or something similar, I can only see either Rey or Ben suffering this—and with all the parallels overall, and seeing the authors of the comic talking about how Anakin and Ben have them going on, yeah, I go with Ben

... What if we’re getting some time-traveling-fuckery?

Remember that, not too long ago, in “Star Wars: Rebels” the World Between Worlds debuted... and Palpatine had apparently been wanting to get a hold on it for some time. Not to mention that the TLJ non-junior novelization has a very interesting chapter where we see some things through Snoke’s perspective, and he not only talks about visions but also mentions timelines... and the TLJ non-junior novelization starts, precisely, with a “what if” scenario of Luke’s life in the form of a dream

So, what if that previous leader of the Knights of Ren is another Ben (going to call him Alterben from now on in this post), and something went awfully wrong in his timeline (Dark Rey perhaps? Palpatine undefeated? ... Rey died?) and he reached to this one to make things as right as they can go... or end younger Ben’s whole career before it even starts

We know that this leader of the KoR is gone later on, that Ben takes on the role, and the KoR are... suspiciously “hidden”, regarding information and media? Still we know some things, though (and some of them suspicious), so let’s do a recap (blessed be the Wookieepedia):

- names: secret (except for Trudgen, now)

- birthplaces: secret

- called “the seven lights” in one of the Star Wars books, with the name standing above their concept art (I don’t remember now which book, but I think it was the TFA artbook one)

- loyal only to Ben Solo (well... Kylo Ren—who knows if they would keep being loyal if he changed name and started doing things different) for some reason

- their designs, all of them, are literally based on rejected Kylo Ren concepts

- “they have some sort of code, which they were flexible in following: living life the way they wanted, taking what the galaxy gave them and consuming what the dark side send them”

- “Force-users like their leader, the Knights of Ren had the power of the dark side but weren’t as powerful as the Jedi or Sith. Their fighting skills and martial prowess are without equal”

- they didn’t put them in the TLJ movie because “there was no room for them”, since the movie was already full, and they mentioned they could have been used in place of Snoke’s Praetorian Guards but that “it would have been a waste because all the guards had to die and Kylo’s connection to the Knights would’ve added unwanted complications to the scene”

- Vanity Fair, back in may 2019, described them as “masked warriors with specialized weaponry who add an element of chaos to the war between the Resistance and the First Order”, and compared how they looked to the characters from Mad Max

- in TFA’s Director commentary, J.J. Abrams noted that they do have a backstory, but that details have not been shared

- “while fleshing out the Knights of Ren for “Star Wars: the Rise of Kylo Ren”, Charles Soule took inspiration from motorcycle gangs, classic Westerns and Samurai tales to dramatize some of the lore behind the Knights”

So, after reading this: it’s clear there’s something more going on with the KoR

What surprises me the most is the loyalty—only to Ben/Kylo. And then, of course, the cryptic “the seven lights” text... But, focusing on loyalty: let’s go for a moment with the idea that their leader in the comic is really Alterben—wouldn’t it make sense, then, that if Ben defeated him leader at some point, they would follow him? Had it been anyone else maybe they would retaliate, but it would be literally their leader except younger and with less shit going on around him

To add this—oh, the irony. Ben wanted to be like Vader... Alterben is literally “burned all over his body” and taking on a mask that pretty much looks necessary, in this case—and if he had lost Rey in that alternate universe, either to the dark side or to death, it would make it all the more tragic and paralleling to Anakin and Padmé

Also, remember the scene where Ben proclaims to Han Solo that he had “killed his son”? ... Well. Another trauma to add if Alterben was a real thing, that is, because Ben would’ve ... literally killed himself...

Maybe Alterben told him of Rey. Something not too clear, perhaps, and that’s why in the novelization Ben’s all like “it is you” when she gets the legacy lightsaber to answer to her? ... Maybe the vision we saw in TFA was not from the future, but from an alternate timeline (although it’s proved and canon that visions fromt he Force can be super tricky, even Snoke remarks that in the TLJ non-junior novelization)

To finish this crazy post, in words of Ben Solo himself: “let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. That’s the only way to become what you were meant to be”—except, in that sense, if this “Alterben theory” wasn’t too crazy and it happened, it would be literally

[eirenare]

Tomorrow is the reveal day of Star Wars’ “Project Luminous” and I’m here just vibing thinking of the possibilities (keeping my feet on the ground tho)

I mean, you can’t make the tagline be “It's an energy field created by all living things... until...” and NOT expect me to be hyped, because that “until” implies something big, it’s just SO ominous

If we’re getting High Republic (and by the way it’s been teased lately, for example in “The Rise of Kylo Ren”), this is gonna be interesting because we’d be in uncharted territory

One of my wildest guesses: we might see more about the Knights of Ren

The KoR, even though they’ve been said to have a background, haven’t had seen it developed that much... The closest to that is “The Rise of Kylo Ren” (remember the moment when we thought we’d finally have something meaningful with them in TROS? Oh, such sweet summer children we were), and even in it there’s not that much info. In fact, as we get close to the 4th and last issue of the comic, there are questions floating and I don’t know if the last volume is going to have space enough for the rest of Ben’s story (could it be that we’ll see how he gets the Vader helmet/mask, perhaps?) and develop the KoR much more

Now the thing is... TROKR shows some interesting stuff about the KoR that, unless it’s explained a bit more in issue #4, it would seem to not be expanded upon anymore: the philosophy of the Ren (so cryptic and dark, I like it a lot), that it’s seemingly tied to that red lightsaber Ren wields

And the latest Visual Dictionary only adds to the intrigue because it revealed that they hailed from the Unknown Regions, and that their name and reputation were told about for CENTURIES and inspired cautionary tales about uncharted space... and we don’t know if the last KoR were directly connected to them, or just using their reputation (or... *coughs in World Between Worlds traveling theorizing*)

And it’s interesting because why would they reveal THAT on the Visual Dictionary, and then TROKR not show anything about it as of issue 3 of 4?

Not to mention that one of the authors of “Project Luminous” is Charles Soule, who’s the writer of “The Rise of Kylo Ren”

I think it’s just... too much of a coincidence?

Honestly, I wouldn’t mind more KoR. I mean, my first wish is always gonna be Ben Solo and Rey trying to find a way to each other (I just love them a ton okay?), but... more KoR would be a hard “yes” for me, I’d welcome it with open arms because I feel like they should’ve gotten something more—and dammit, I want more Ren

... Also, remember the TFA book with the designs of the KoR, and then above them the letter calling them “the 7 light?” Yeah I’m still thinking of that cryptic stuff even though it probably has no meaning now. And the fact that they all come from rejected appearences for Ben as his Kylo Ren persona is interesting, their defeat at Ben’s hand in TROS feels pretty symbolic

[eirenare]

Me, about to read TROKR #4: ah well, time to get my “Ren > future/alternate Ben that went very wrong” theory mercilessly smashed to the ground lol

TROKR #4: *doesn’t explain much about Ren, leaves some things open and cryptic, has some interesting stuff going on, doesn’t mercilessly smash my theory to the ground*

My theorizing, AU-loving, Reylo ass, opening Google Drive to write more “Rewrite the Stars” WBW shenanigans:

[eirenare]

I’ve just read the new “The Rise of Kylo Ren” interview with Charles Soule (the writer) and Will Sliney (the artist) and thought I’d do a post about it because there’s some very interesting stuff

And also I may or may not be absolutely amused at some descriptions for the former leader of the Knights of Ren

[More under the “read more” because of spoilers of TROKR, and because of speculation/theorizing of TROS.]

“They call him Ren, but that wasn’t always his name.

“Born out of the flames,” as artist Will Sliney puts it, the leader of the Knights of Ren in the opening pages of the new comic Star Wars: The Rise of Kylo Ren #1, arrives battle-scarred and wearing a fearsome, featureless mask — a blank expression save for a smattering of claw-like gouges. Concealed within is a charismatic leader, the exact type of person who would be able to seduce young Ben Solo away from the path of the Jedi.”

They’re going to talk about “The Rise of Kylo Ren”—they spent the first paragraphs mostly talking about Ren

And... *arching eyebrows at the first phrases* So... “They call him Ren, but that wasn’t always his name”, and “born out of the blames”, and “fearsome, featureless mask”... Yeah, this totally does nothing to stop me from thinking Ren’s gonna be future/alternative Ben

Alexa, play “Dark Horse” *looking sideways at Dark Rey and Ren*

“I wanted him to read like a charming Darth Vader,” says writer Charles Soule. “A Vader who is charismatic and who is appealing. That’s why [Ren’s] skin is burned and he sort of looks the way that he does. He’s embracing the seductiveness and the damage that the dark side does. Darth Vader, as impressive and imposing and terrifying as he is, is remote and cold and distant because he has the suit surrounding him. Whereas Ren isn’t hiding behind it. He’s someone you could have a beer with, in theory.”

Oh, so are we going parallel territory with the Darth Vader, like previously with Ben and Anakin? Interesting... *munches popcorn* Also lol at having a beer with him

“Designed purposefully for the new comic series, with issue #1 out now, Ren feeds the evolution of Kylo Ren. “The entire seductiveness of the dark side poured into one character engineered for Ben Solo is Ren,” Soule says. “He’s sort of a charming evil rascal that can be really fun to write and I really like where he goes in the series. But if Kylo Ren is going to take over the Knights of Ren, which we know that’s what happens, there should be some transition.”

I didn’t think I’d see Mr. Hottie McHotHot aka Ren defined like a “sort of a charming evil rascal”, but yeah, that’s kriffing funny and awesome and I can’t wait to see what happens in January

But now... now comes the super juicy bits...

“The creative team engineered some surprises for this charming dark sider, a foil in many ways to Darth Vader hiding beneath his protective covering. “You expect the dude hiding his face under a mask like that to be all messed up, particularly with his body looking the way it does,” Soule says. But in issue #2 we’ll see what he’s truly concealing, a reveal that speaks to Ben on a whole other level.”

Why does this sound familiar? ... Ah, yes, because it’s kind of the way they described Ben‘s unmasking in TFA, the whole “you expect a monster but you got this young tortured prince”. Sounds like that a lot. Also, the fact that what he’s hiding under the mask seems it will be a huge reveal to Ben and that they’ve “engineered some surprises for this charming dark sider”? Not to mention that, again, we have a comparison with Darth Vader

Yep, this definitely does nothing to keep me from going on with my Ren/Ben theory

“I think the key to writing Ben Solo is to write him as a lost teenager who is deeply in touch with emotions that teenagers often feel,” Soule says. “He feels like no one understands him, no one sees him the way he actually is, he’s utterly alone and there’s no one else out there in the universe. So when he sees Ren, he’s like, ‘Wait a minute — maybe there is somebody like me in the universe. Maybe there is a path for a guy like me. Look at the choices he’s made. I could make those choices, too, and I could be cool.’”

Okay, so, who the kriff is cutting onions in the room? *Ben feels intensify*

Also there might or might not be a certain Disney song going on my head right now reading this lol

“The story also calls for the re-introduction of a younger, seemingly kinder Snoke, wearing a little cap, no less. When we meet him in the series, the future Supreme Leader of the First Order is essentially a gardener. “When we were in the design process, Snoke is someone that you know is going to defy expectations and it’s not going to be the Snoke that you know,” Sliney says. “And it’s important because we’re going to see a very, very different relationship that Snoke and Ben have. It establishes that this is not the Snoke that’s going to Force-choke Hux and slam him into the ground. He’s playing the long game…so it was important to portray Snoke differently.

And true to his festering nature, Snoke inhabits a place that on the surface seems serene and beautiful, but is rotten at its core, a script note that spurred Sliney to google “rotting fruit” for artistic inspiration.”

Snoke is a scary predator. Whatever he is, whatever it’s his relationship with Palpatine, that’s the thing—they’re both scary predators, and I can’t even begin to imagine all the shit fed to poor Ben’s head

Also, about that world... Another thought that came to me (besides Mortis stuff) is that maybe it could be the deserted/stormy place we see in the TROS trailers, like the planet finally rotten inside and outside, kind of as a reflection as to how appearences have fallen apart and all that’s left to show is the rotting

“Like Sheev Palpatine, the once humble senator of Naboo, “Snoke is someone who knows the playbook,” Soule says. “It’s a similar play in terms of, ‘I’m a nice guy who’s just trying to help you,’ which is kind of what Palpatine did. But Snoke’s path to power, Snoke’s seduction technique, Snoke’s message and teachings are, I think, pretty different from the way Palpatine did it…. His job is not so much to corrupt as it’s to represent an alternative to the legacy [Ben has] been presented.” In concert with Ren presenting an alternate path, Snoke’s suggestive philosophy is appealing to a young boy who feels lost. “Everyone’s telling you you’re X, but what if you’re Y? What feels correct to you? Are you Obi-Wan Kenobi or maybe you’re something else?” Soule says. “All you need to be is whoever you are and no one’s letting you do that…and maybe, shouldn’t you go someplace where you can be who you are?”

Now that’s a specially terrifying way of predating—you may be able to get away from all the people you love, detach from them so as to protect them and protect your heart, but you can’t run away from yourself and your thoughts and feelings, and that’s what Snoke targets with Ben

“To bring these characters alive on the page, Sliney pulled reference material from Celtic myths and poured over books featuring the art of Star Wars. “I don’t think I’ve ever studied as much as I have,” he says. “Everything Star Wars. I have all those art books, whether it’s the modern ones or the ones from the original movies or the prequels. I love the art…I think it’s important to pay respects to the amazing concept art that have made these movies along the way.”

Those artists, of course, famously took their inspiration from earlier works, so Sliney went back even further. “I’m going backwards as much as I can in terms of the feel of it,” he says. “It needed to feel epic and it needed to feel powerful. It’s bringing it back to that mythological kind of feeling. I have a big influence from a lot of old ancient Celtic stories that date back thousands and thousands of years. These stories of lone warriors who died on the hill…. Those ancient books, they carry that gravitas.”

That’s interesting. Maybe the big “dead” tree around the machinery comes from Celtic mythology? After taking a look at some info, I’d say this screams “tree of life” to me, which would pretty much fit like a glove with the Force and the balance because it represents harmony and all that. Also, if you want to know something funny, according to this webpage (Irish Around the World), “trees were a connection to the world of the spirits and the ancestors, living entities, and doorways into other worlds”, it says, among other things

And, to finish:

“Meanwhile, Soule pulled much of his writing inspiration from the Skywalker saga itself, save for Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker, which was still in production at the time. Soule went back and studied the first time we see Kylo Ren on screen, wondering to himself about the implication that Ben Solo had met Lor San Tekka in their younger days. “There’s a lot of data hidden between the subtext and text,” Soule says. “It’s about doing the research on that level just to see what connections might be made, but it’s also the feel of it.”

After all, Ben Solo’s bloodline makes him Star Wars royalty. “This is a story about legacy,” he says. “It’s a story about family and expectations and the fact that Ben Solo is part of a vast network of galaxy-changing individuals from his mom and his dad, to his uncle, to his adopted uncle, Lando, to his namesake Ben Kenobi, to his grandfather, Darth Vader…Within one step of him are arguably some of the most important people in the galaxy. So his story is their story and you can’t tell Ben Solo’s story without knowing all the other ones backwards and forwards.”

Interesting, about the writing inspiration... I’m really curious to see how it’ll fit with TROS

Can’t wait to see TROS tomorrow, both because of the movie itself and to start thinking where TROKR may land because, hey... we’re still 3 issues away from the comic to end, 3 months