#actually partly because of their flaws because it makes them more three dimensional and relatable

[reign-of-the-wolves]

THEM:

Hi Reading one of your recent comments on Soo It seems to be that you actually don't like her as a character not just the way she was written I think, it's just my assumption consider her as weak and a bit stupid Maybe I'm wrong

ME: It's both how she was written as a character and the character herself. Lol I've watched this series over 6 times now (partly to enjoy it with friends but also to analyze the story and characters for my own writing.) It may be the editing departments fault too with how they edited the final video

THEM: I think that the writing has a couple of flaws as every script has and it's ok but I put all blame on director and editor team.

Also, I think you really underestimate her and putting definition of a strong female lead in a very classic dimension when it comes to judging Soo, idk about others.

She was pretty much silly in the first eps and I didn't like her either. But there so much development that made me grow to like her more and more.

After all, of it wasn't her nothing would have happened. Even Eun's death supposed to happen because she meant to be there to story that we know in modern days could happen.

She's not even a bit weak. Just out yourself a modern day girl into her condition. Time travel, deaths of people that important to you and not most of them aren't natural. Tortures, a year of hard work of a water maid, ruined health, always aching knees and problem with heart. Const fear of hurting and affecting somebody's life, holding back with a person you falling in love with, then watching how his marrying other woman and suffering because of it, then leaving him not because you don't love him but because you have to and there's no other choice.

She's relatable in so many aspects even in Goryeo era. She's not super smart or strong or anything else, that what makes her so human. But she is so compassionate, hardworking.

ME: But it's not just my opinion 4 other of my friends (one of them having never seen Kdramas before) kinda of the same opinion. Her early eps were basically what kinda killed it.

Honestly my biggest thing is that there was no excuse for her behavior in the early episodes. (I didn't mind her too much after Court Lady Oh's death, but everything before that point she just didn't make sense to me... she would've realistically been executed) Even her being from another time can be a valid reason up to a point... before it becomes a writers scapegoat.

To me, if I had to pick a character from that show that was the most relateable and believably written, It would be Court Lady oh.

ME: it's just there's things that are common sense and common knowledge that anyone of any social class (modern or ancient) would know, and she somehow... didn't?? how to speak to royalty, and not get in a fight with them being for starters LOL

ME: the other things I can kinda loosely overlook as pure modern ignorance but there are some things that are just painfully jarring that make 0 sense for anyone in Korea or SE-Asia

ME: the more I watch and try to find reasons to sympathize with her or justify her behavior the more I can't-- especially when my friends are also asking me questions about why she's behaving a certain way. LOL I do try... I genuinelly do try (especially cause I want me friends to love this show as much as me) but I can't. xD I can't even objectively try to defend her character until after Court Lady Oh's death. and by that point when it comes to hr and wang So's relationship I can feel even less empathy for it aside from his character... XD

ME: I love wang So very very much, extremely deeply but their pairing made so little sense to me... that I couldn't even try to explain it to my friends xD Maybe the original book was different, but, this show didn't make work... this could be the fault of the editors and writers of the show

ME: 5 other friends of mine (my miscount I forgot how many I have seen this series with) Today at 10:06 AM

THEM: She was fearless and didn't want to let people humiliate her. Don't forget that she was a part of powerful Wook's household and people tear her as she is a mere child so I doubt that something would have happened to her. The only stupid thing that she did back then was beating Eun. She just couldn't stand his pervertism and decided to teach him a lesson.

I doubt that you know how to speak to medieval royalty as I have no clue how to speak to royalty from medieval Rus. Everything what I know is based on history books and tv series. I'm pretty sure it's far from accurate Also, Ha Jin's history knowledge was awfully poor. She couldn't even figure out that Gwangjong wasn't the second Goryeo king nor she didn't know that he actually didn't killed all his brothers. Her history knowledge was on a level of girl just appearing in history class auditorium without paying much attention.

For example? (What doesn't make sense for people in Kore and Asia)

Girl in original book is absolutely different just as 4th prince, they just took some main plot lines, everything else is different.

Their relationship was built on friendship, complete understanding of each other, they could see real nature of each other. Also, they're both idealistic and fight for truth, they're romantic and cherish freedom. They're really similar and I already told you about it.

ME: you sound mad? O-o are you mad at me or something? cause again this is just my own view point. LOL

THEM: Ahahah, no 😄

ME: okay LOL

ME: good XD

THEM: Sorry if I offend you

ME: nah you didn't I was worried of the reverse

THEM: I'm just giving you my point of view

ME: ^_^ ok

THEM: Because I'm just upset that you would rather erase Hae Soo from the story when she's basically the core of this narration

ME: LOL If I had to have a time traveling character beign the narration I'd persoanlly prefer a different character in her place. or even just have the narration from So's POV entirely or the original Hae Soo. :/  Sorry if I upset you it's just my oppinion and I'm not trying to like force it on ya LOL Today at 12:47 PM

THEM: But was hwarang female lead brilliantly written and was their romance developed? Like just to compare historical dramas that you watched.

It's not just So's story, initially it is a girls story, Koreans decided to share the focus with male lead as well.

It's fine, I get it. And you wouldn't be able to do it anyway 😄

ME: I liked the girl in the very very first episode. But after that first episode. THE VERY INSTANT SHE MET THE MALE LEAD... I ended up disliking her too the romance in Hwarang was just as bad as SHR

THEM: I'm afraid that you end up disliking all female leads in sageuk

ME: after that point TBH I kinda realized maybe it was Korean's media where they're so focused on shoehorning and shoving poorly developed romance down people's throats.... yeahhhh probably

THEM: But SoSoo wasn't poorly developed Can't agree with you It one of the most amazingly developed relationship in kdrama world In fiction I've run into And I love romance but only a good believable romance

ME: if that's the case then I am absolutely mortified to see other shows in Korea if that was considered the best in Kdrama world

THEM: Have you thought that it's a western mindset that makes you think that Soo and other female leads are weak

ME: my friend found the way he acted after she said she understood him absolutely jarring today ROFL

THEM: Ofc there are some one dimensional poorly written characters But I honestly saw many great girls

ME: Honestly I hate how a lot of media writes women in the West too I do think it could be a culture thing for me too, that maybe Korea and Japan idiolize these meek weak kinda "dense and quirky" women that NEED a man to function or at least the trope of it

THEM: Why it's so understandable

ME: in SE-Asian media

THEM: There's a parallel between his conversation with mother and this moment with Soo

ME: I know these countries are very sexist and women don't get a lot of respect over there.

THEM: Actually I feel like less sexist in historical way that Europe In Japan there were women samurais

ME: Oh I know in history it was fine till we came and shoved our noses in it

THEM: And I'm Goryeo women could divorce without damaging their honor

ME: or with confusnism

THEM: And all the property still belonged to them

ME: I'm not completely naive about Japan XD I did do research on the Samurai and the Minamoto family I also know in the Three Kingdoms era women were of equal

THEM: Japanese are more severe

ME: in fact one of them ruled err wait three of the women ruled Silla

THEM: Not completely equal but almost yeah

ME: What I'm saying is the roles of women changed roughly around the Joseon Dynasty and into the era where Christians started butting in well yeah not perfect but closer

ME: then it all turned to shit

THEM: Agree

ME: And yes maybe my Western upbringing has a lot to do with how I see it, but then again, I loved characters like Court lady Oh, Queen Hwangbo, (Hell I would even say- despite her corruption and being written as a bitch/antagonist-) I enjoyed Yeon Hwa's character and felt she was wonderfully developed. (no I do NOT ship Yeon hwa with WAng So) But I loved ALL these characters way more then I liked Soo because I felt they were better written and developed over all. Or WOo Hee for that mater I adored Woo hee and felt she was incredibly brace and strong

THEM: Ok but all these woman were ready to kill I like only Woo Hee from these three

ME: Court Lady Oh wasn't willing to kill. Also Lady Hae herself was another powerful and strong woman in her own right and she wasn't gunna kill anyone

THEM: But you say you liked these three

ME: both these women would've died (and one of them did) to protect the people they loved I forgot the other two xD well I mentioned Court Lady Oh XD but yeah basically any other woman in that show I found more engaging and compelling

THEM: Even Chae ryung? 😄 But Yeon Hwa was snake as well

ME: Soon Deok, Lady Oh, Lady Hae, Yeon Hwa, (hell even Yoo for being a horrible antagnosist and terible mother) Woo Hee.... all of these girls in my mind were better written and developed. yes even Chae Ryung I felt more emotion to all of these other women

THEM: But she was an evil traitor and liar

ME: in different ways yes but I felt SOMETHING I didn't nessicarily mean positive

THEM: Ok then I can say one thing

ME: or liking the character's decisions XD

THEM: You don't like Hae Soo in general Bc it's impossible to the same writers to write all these women and So itself To be poorly wrote Hae Soo in which I disagree ofc

THEM: You just don't like her for her character Like you found interesting everyone in this show except Hae Soo

ME: XD No I don't her character or how she was written...I felt 0 empathy for her on any level as a viewer, and I felt over all she made no sense as a character and was too unrealistic as a believeable character. I felt and could relate to the other characters in different ways. Yeon hwa for all her treachery I could see she was blindly pursuing her goals to protect her family (even though it was wrong). Lady Oh and Lady Hae and Woo Hee all were amazing and brave women yeah basically XD I did

THEM: Yeon Hwa wasn't protecting her family Like never

ME: It's not that I don't BLINDLY dislike her I have stated many times why I don't like or agree with her. ehh true XD she was just poisoned with greed but even she was interesting as a character

THEM: She just wanted power And So was for her just a beast to be tamed When Soo saw in him a kind hearted human and friend

ME: Well yeah XD I never liked YH and So together either

THEM: You didn't feel any empathy bc you didn't like her as a person, you felt no connection bc maybe you share only few traits with her. Most of the time when I watch dramas and movies, I feel no connection with characters. Especially western ones. I can say same things about beloved by many characters but I know that there are people who are like this particular heroine and they feel connection. Why she's not believable? She was betrayed many time, she fell for the wrong person, right person was always by her side and it took sonmuxh time to realize. She was to kind and to idealistic to realize many things earlier. I think it happened to many people. I felt her extremely relatable bc I would act same in many situations. Who am I kidding I would gone crazy after few days. But she had strength to not give up and accept the reality and live. She was acting so carelessly because she was allowed to, she felt love and protection from all the princes. She relaxed as if she was at home, in friendly atmosphere but after Lady Oh's death she realized that she can't and don't have right to live and behave like that anymore. It was a call that she's in medieval kingdom after all. I'm just saying that you don't feel empathy bc you don't like her as a person. And I feel like you belittle her and her strength

THEM: And I'm saying all of that considering how many times I was extremely mad at her and wanted to shout at her

Still I can't hate her or accuse in anything

She was in huge stress. She managed to survive for 10 in a toxic and suffocating atmosphere where she didn't belong.

ME: Yeah. XD Honestly I've stated many points on why I didn't like how she was written or her character as a character/person XD My friend who watched this series with me kinda pointed out to me too that she felt Hae Soo was "literally there to further the drama and development of the princes and she's a badly done character that was done injustice by baaaaaaaad writing." And my friend is in honors classes full scholarship majoring in developmental psychology. She likes a LOT of fiction, TV and admits she loves almost all types of characters and in her own words "has no standards for writing" xD IDK maybe we just see things differently My friend LOVED Wang so and the royal family and the story as a whole

ME: she just didn't like Soo either

ME: Maybe we should avoid the topic of Hae Soo when it comes to this show and stick to Wang So and the other Princes XD XD Cause yeah we'll never see eye to eye on it. might be safer that way ahahah ^_^;; I don't want to offend ya since you love her so much.

THEM: I don't even love her so much I really like her and I relate to her

ME: Ah Ok LOL xD Well either way I just really don't wanna step on toes XD

THEM: I just don't really get how you skip her in this story

THEM: It's unfair To the whole story and So itself Because neither of it happened without her She's a base of this story

THEM: Like if there's poorly written character - Jung Or he's just eternally stupid

ME: I loved So's development as HIM I just wished Hae Soo's character was different then I might support it more.

THEM: But she was a part of his development He wouldn't have became king without her

ME: I just didn't like him and Soo as a couple nor did I like how she was written nor her character itself.

I think he could've developed that same way were she a different person.

ME: Eh it's kinda like friend said, she was a plot device in that respect. xD

THEM: Fe She wasn't a plot device, she was a center of this story

ME: LOL Like I said, it's probably safer we don't bring up Hae Soo xD I could go on and on about Wang So and the rest of the family with positive praise. LOL

THEM: Ok give me an example of what kind of different female lead should have been there

ME: and deep love... but her... ehhhh character type?

THEM: I'm not the one who avoids uncomfortable topics Yes You also think she's unworthy of this love, right? Because she never showed it so openly as he did?

ME: (strictly character personality types, not ethnicity) Woo Hee, Lady Oh, Rose Tyler, Arwen, I could hoenstly go on

THEM: That's actually really funny that you mentioned lady oh Bc it's an older version of Hae Soo

ME: I mean after Lady Oh got wise to the world yes older and wiser much older and wiser matured

THEM: But nobody gets as older and wiser in such young age Without tough experience

THEM: You get wisdom from experience Fans you compare Woo Hee and Hae Soo/Ha Jin when they were raised ina different atmosphere It's same as people were comparing Wook and So

ME: I'm looking at personality types... not characters and backstory the**

THEM: But their character traits came from their experience

ME: I'm talking technical Like the character breakdown in writing

THEM: Oh, I see

THEM: Idk neither Arwen or Rose I can't see this kind of character in this kind of story

ME: not the characters themselves or their history.

Well no one is an elf from another world of fiction the other is a 21st century girl from London. XD But their character traits and personality/flaws are what I'm talking about. Not who they are or where they're from

THEM: Also, about Woo Hee. Her and Baek Ah and SoSoo are mirroring each other Showing that this type of people have light inside of them but life made them tondo some things that were corrupting them from the inside

ME: ehhhhhh they're different people maybe

THEM: They need someone with the light to help them to return to their natural state To soften their thorns That they forced themselves to grow in order to survive

THEM: Both of them didn't to chose to be who they are, the had to do it The other thing that showing is a Soo and Baek Ah talk in ep 19 Soo talks with Baek Ah possibly having her and So in mind Saying that Woo Hee wasn't selfish enough, she's the one who left and she's a bad guy

ME: hahahahahha yeahhh mental illnesss doesn't work that way... honestly that little comment really ticked me off.

THEM: Possibly referring to herself, fully recognizing that she and So weren't selfish and she's the bad guy, she hurts him badly by leaving him But as Woo Hee (here a woman sacrifice parallel) she leaves to protect So and their baby Which comment?

ME: the whole Woo Hee was the bad guy for killing herself kinda thing

ME: the context and situation was just bad for that cosnidering she committed suicide

THEM: She was more talking about herself

THEM: But she committed suicide not bc of mental illness She did that for Baek Ah and her people

ME: LOL Woo hee and soo are nothing alike... especially in that respect.

THEM: They both sacrificed their happiness for their beloved Soo just didn't die

ME: Woo Hee was unhappy from the start

THEM: Bc she was already severely ill and she had to deliver a healthy child

ME: even Baek Ah noticed that

THEM: Ofc she was She was a princess of fallen kingdom And had to become a kisaeng

ME: She probably suffered from depression and that was partially what drove her to suicide.

THEM: I think every single person in this story suffered from depression

ME: Well yeah.... xD in some ways But she was an extreme case

THEM: The other thing that her existence itself gave hope to Baekje people that their kingdom will be restored And So?

ME: So is a whole other can of worms with mental illness probably PTSD just to start

THEM: Let's be honest As a physical illnesses There's no completely mentally healthy person in this world And Soo? You think she wasn't traumatized? She had, in my opinion, the least stable situation

ME: she probably was and should've been...

ME: but the thing is

THEM: Because the huge contracts of upbringing and the reality she was put in The weight of responsibility and fear Fear that consumes

ME: that's even more of a reason why I felt she and So shouldn't have ever gotten together... and that their relationship (on top of the country) was toxic and unhealthy and should have never happened. and probably wouldn't have in reality

THEM: I just really familiar with this feeling when fear just blocks your rationality bc you just don't want to mess up Toxic and unhealthy?

THEM: There weren't any attachment, obsessions Jealousy And other stuff

ME: jealousy lies, possessiveness. For both of them it was an emotionally abusive relationship

THEM: Lies happens in all relationship Jealousy when? Emotional pain was cause not by them but by the circumstances they were put in

ME: she got sulky when he got married to Mu's kid (WHO WAS LIKE 12) she got jealous of YH,

THEM: If they lived in a hut in that village they would have grow old together with a  lot of children It wasn't jealousy

THEM: She thought he might be after throne And it's his ambition When she got jealous of Yeon Hwa?

ME: when she mentioned getting married to him... it wasn't outward but she refused to let go and see that she was not good for him as Queen. it was only when Ji Mong finally shut her down and told her how it is that it finally sunk in anyway this is just going in circles it's perspective and opinion. there's not enough content in the show to properly psycho analyze the characters sadly

ME: sadly**

THEM: Omg She wasn't jealous She simply didn't want the love of her lie to get married to other woman

ME: So was jealous of her though... and possessive

THEM: Bc she knew he didn't want it too He loves her

ME: I love him and I could justify it rationally

THEM: And proposed to her

ME: honestly it shouldve ended after Eun's death if not before then.

THEM: Relationship you're talking about is a complete utopia No lies, no jealousy

ME: LOOOL nah

THEM: Lies that told each other was motivated to protect each other for good Lame motive but still

ME: well yeahhhh it's called an honest and healthy one XD I'm not saying their aren't struggles but you don't lie to the person you claim to love.

THEM: In toxic relationship lies is motivated to manipulate your partner into doing what you want

ME: Lame motive and toxic in reality

THEM: Ofc you don't But you're measuring everyone from a modern mindset not considering that there's a whole empire on a stake besides them

THEM: That's the conflict of a whole story You can't have both a throne and love There's only one thing you can hold It not toxic It's problematic Toxic a strong word

ME: I'm very tempted to actually ask a psychologist this very thing someone who is certified to say what is toxic relationship and not given that period just to see if it's promlematic or genuinely a toxic circumstance

THEM: And when you say emotional pain. Well, in toxic relationship, emotional abuses is an intentional thing, right? They never did that, they never did something to each other to hurt and make them feel worse or unworthy, they did say something things to push each other bc they thought it would be better for them and will keep them safe.

THEM: I saw many discussions on tumblr on that matter Even from a psychologist

ME: uhhh unfortuantely tumblr is an echochamber of biasness

THEM: People who said it's toxic mainly aimed it on So

ME: and nah it's not always intentional

THEM: Other people said it's not And toxic relationship Soo nactually had with Wook

ME: you can be abusive and not realize it

THEM: But it's a natural thing We grow like that

THEM: It makes us stronger and wiser Then Baek Ah and Woo Hee is toxic Seon Deok and Wang Eun is toxic Ten and Rose is toxic Everything single relationship on tv and books is a toxic things

ME: Well asking my friend (who's taking psych) whether Soo and So were toxic... she didn't think so but she did think they weren't good for each other

THEM: Toxic is when relationship brings more pain and discomfort that joy and happiness but you can't quit due to development attachment and feelings

When it destroys your heart and soul

Am I right?

But SoSoo weren't destroyed by their love. They were destroyed by life and time, love was the only thing that brighten their days and kept them alive

ME: I wanted her imput because I feel she'd be more relatlly qualified and I DO sometimes misuse words

THEM: Now tell me, please, what are you favourite romances in fictional world that you think are healthy and perfect. So I could wholly understand your pov.

ME: There aren't any "perfect ones" but offhand Arwen and Aragorn... no not perfect but it was real Beren and Luthien, my friend said : A Court of Thorns and Roses Sarah J Mass Rhys/Freyre

also IMHO Keeping someone "safe" through lying takes away their agency and makes it seem like they're not competent to handle the situation Also jack/Ianto were great. 10/Rose Tyler were great they weren't perfect...

I don't read a lot of fiction I mostly watch TV shows and movies

ME: also katara and Anng from that TV series Avatar aang* PiperxLeo from Charmed

ME: Phoebe/Cupe from Charmed as well

ME: Peggy Carterx Steve Rogers

THEM: But Hae Soo actually couldn't handle the situation, like she couldn't stop the bloodshed in Wang family, only So could.

And when she was leaving him, she actually knew that he can hadnlaw the situation and marry her but it lead to clans rebellion, more blood and it will put him in huge danger

It wasn't a modern word, it's not that simple

Come on, like Ten didn't lie to Rose and didn't hurt her? Can't comment others not familiar

Piper and Leo - jealousy, lies, emotional hurting check check check, they even divorced

I'm mentioning things that you said about SoSoo, that's why I'm so repetitive

Phoebe and Cupe were unrealistically ideal and sugary and plane in my opinion

ME: I have read the comics too

THEM: Peggy and Steve they didn't even have a relationship Even a proper date Oh well

THEM: I'm judging by the movies It's just what you're mentioning appearing everywhere, in my opinion, it's just a context That makes it's toxic or not

ME: it's been years since I saw Charmed so  I'd have to rewatch it the show again.

THEM: Sometimes this checklists with definitions don't work I was obsessed so I remember some things