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gawdilykeu · 2 years

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VERY LONG BYLER VS MILEVEN RANT/ESSAY BUT NOT, MY ENDLESS THOUGHTS ON THE LOVE TRIANGLE IG

Table of contents thing cause this thing got so long:

Intro

My thoughts on Mileven (and why I don’t think they work anymore)

My thoughts on Byler (and why I do think they work)

Why I think Byler has a chance of being endgame

Why I think Byler might not be endgame

List of my fav Byler moments

Final thoughts

I have a LOT of thoughts on the whole “Byler vs Mileven” thing and I just need to get them off my chest for no one’s benefit but my own. First of all let me just say I like both ships, I’m not trying to yuck anyone’s yum this is all just my own opinion and interpretation okay? Okay good. Second of all I have no idea what the Duffers and Stranger Things writers are planning on actually doing and I don’t wanna pretend to know cause I honestly kinda think it could go either way at this point. So anyway, with that out of the way I will say that I personally am rooting for Byler endgame in terms of what I WANT, but I don’t hate Mileven or anything and I don’t know which one will be endgame. Also disclaimer I talk a lot. This will be long.

So first my thoughts on Mileven:

I think they’re cute and I see the appeal. Little nerdy boy meets mysterious badass (but sweet and traumatized) little girl, they go through a crazy ordeal together and help each other and become very emotionally bonded, then ensues a cute innocent puppy-love story. I get it! For years when I was more of a GA member I had never really given Byler much thought and I thought Mileven was cute but I wasn’t like invested into it or anything, and did see more issues in their relationship as the seasons progressed.

So anyway, my problems with their relationship are as follows:

- If we think about them from a real-word standpoint, the fact that they became romantically involved when they did is a little insane. If it were real life, I think anyone with a brain would agree that the last thing El in particular needed at that time was a “boyfriend”, or a boy kissing her, etc. I don’t blame innocent little twelve year old Mike, but poor little El had just barely learned what a “friend” was, and had no idea what Mike was trying to say when he tried to tell her he had a crush on her. She had no way of knowing anything about romance/what it entailed/what was healthy/what she wanted at that point. I mean really. When would she have ever had it modeled for her before? I seriously doubt she would understand the complete implications of something like a kiss. Plenty of twelve year olds with normal upbringings don’t fully grasp all the things to do with love and romance, let alone someone who was raised like El was. Again, if we were to pretend that something like this happened in real life, where a little girl escaped from a LAB where she was kept from the real world, not given a real name, emotionally and physically abused, dehumanized, and treated like an experiment for the first twelve years of her life, I think everyone would agree she would need a good amount of time to learn about/adjust to regular life. She definitely shouldn’t be getting romantically involved with anyone for a while, and especially not within the first week of meeting other people as a twelve year old. ANYWAY that was probably at least a little redundant but hopefully you get it. I don’t know how “realistic” Stranger Things wants to be in that regard, and you can have a little bit of suspension of disbelief with Mike and El’s love story, I get it, but yeah.

- As their relationship progresses and El adjusts more and more, they honestly don’t seem to have that much substance together, and while they obviously care for each other (how could they not considering their history together and how they met and bonded) their relationship is kinda immature and doesn’t actually feel that strong. They don’t really have any common interests (El still doesn’t know anything about DnD or any of Mike’s other nerdy [affectionate] interests and doesn’t seem interested in them, and also hasn’t developed too many interests of her own, but we do see she seems to like romance movies, something Mike doesn’t seem to like?), and spend most of their time ditching their friends and just kissing in season three. There just doesn’t seem to be a lot of development or mutual understanding to their relationship. They have communication issues, and their relationship problems are played for laughs in season three. Again, they obviously have some kind of bond, but now that they’re spending more time together their romantic relationship doesn’t seem that compelling or healthy. Also, we finally see El start forming other close friendships that she spends one-on-one time with outside of Mike only in season 3, and only THEN does she also finally start to even think about the fact that she can have her OWN INTERESTS AND TASTES. And she had a boyfriend before this? Anyway. You get it right? A lot of the GA actually seems to have an opinion similar to this now despite Mike and El being one of (if not the) most prominently featured romantic relationships in the show.

- They both seem to put each other on pedestals and (unintentionally) make each other insecure. Mike sees El as this badass superhero who at any moment could realize he’s a loser who’s not good enough for her and will not need him anymore. He doesn’t share his nerdy interests with her and at times even seems to try to pretend he’s someone he’s not to feel worthy of her and of a girl liking him in general (see: California arrival outfit). Meanwhile El seems to try and mold herself into a “pretty” “normal” girl to make herself feel worthy of having a boyfriend. She wants to fit the role of “girlfriend” and be good enough for a normal boy like Mike. She’s insecure about being different and doesn’t really want to be just a “superhero” or a “monster”, and idolizes girls she finds pretty and normal and tries to emulate them. She is also insecure about being bullied at school and not fitting in, and deliberately keeps this from Mike and lies to him about having friends and going to parties, presumably all in an attempt to impress him and make him think she’s good enough for him. So all in all, not a lot of healthy communication going on and they both seem to see each other (and themselves in relation to the other) in a somewhat skewed way.

- This can also be lumped in with their overall communication issues, but we also have the whole thing of Mike not being able to say “I love you” or the L word at all to El, something that means a lot to her and hurts her when she notices the pattern. Their whole fight about it in season 4 was also not a very healthy fight, and for me really did just highlight all the issues with their romantic relationship. The reasoning behind Mike not being able to say it can be interpreted in multiple ways sure, but it does just seem kinda “red-flag”y to me. El needs this verbal confirmation, and even when she’s confronting Mike about it and crying in front of him about it he just deflects and denies and STILL DOESN’T SAY IT! I feel like if you really were in love with someone and saw them crying asking you to tell them as much YOU WOULD TELL THEM? Unless you wanted to beeak up? In which case I also feel like that would indicate not being super in love? I don’t know. And yes we know he says it in the monologue but like it took a life or death, end of the world, situation to do it AND even then he still had to be coaxed into it by someone else. I don’t know. It could have been the writer’s intention to have the monologue fix all their problems and all that, but I kinda hope not, because I still don’t think their relationship seems healthy after everything else I’ve listed.

Okay, now onto Byler:

Like I mentioned, I never gave much thought to Byler until season 4. I had heard about it and knew some people shipped it, and I saw the appeal you know, but again didn’t think much of it and definitely didn’t think it had a shot in hell of being canon. Then season 4 happened, my third eye was opened, and seeing Byler become halfway canon was so earth-shattering and life changing that it made me think, if it came this far, maybe it has a chance of going all the way. And now all the pieces for me have clicked into place and I am 100% a Byler endgame advocate. If it’s done right, I think it would make so much narrative sense and be such a good ending for these characters.

So here is why I think that Byler should be endgame (whether it actually is or not):

- First of all, there’s the whole list of reasons I gave above as to why Mileven isn’t actually the healthiest relationship in my opinion, so that would (for me) justify them having a HEALTHY MUTUAL BREAKUP and El being single independent (which is not me wanting to take away her happiness or not wanting her to have a happy ending, El is my babygirl and don’t you dare try and tell me different) healthy and happy. I genuinely think it’d be best for her and Mike but especially her TRUST!

- Okay now onto my advocacy of Byler themselves. Pretty much of all the problems with Mike and El’s relationship are solved with Mike and Will’s potential relationship. I’ll list all of them in a similar way. Mike and Will met at the beginning of kindergarten and have been best friends ever since, already showing that they most definitely know each other well and have had years of bonding under their belts. They feel most comfortable telling each other everything and this is made clear multiple times in the show (hello crazy together scene, just to name one example). They specifically confide in each other and the bond between the two of them in particular (out of all the boys in their four-person friend group) has been repeatedly emphasized throughout the show. They have a special relationship and have been very close for some time.

- They know and see each other exactly as the other person is and love them for it, and don’t feel like they have to put up a front around each other. They have tons of common interests that they love sharing and partaking in together. Everything about himself that Mike is insecure about in his relationship with El, Will LOVES and knows him for. That nerd that Mike thinks isn’t good enough for El and avoids fully showing to her, a.k.a. his truest self, is quite literally who Will has known deeply for years and is in love with.

- No relationship is perfect obviously, and no one’s denying that Mike and Will have had conflicts in their relationship too, but the conflicts literally only started after Mike started dating El and pretty much all of them had to do with his relationship with El too. Like actually.

- Will loves Mike the way Mike wants to be loved, and you could argue vice versa. When Mike vents to Will about all his relationship problems with El, he talks repeatedly about how he’s afraid that she’ll realize she doesn’t need him anymore, and that he knows she doesn’t, emphasizing that he evidently wants to feel needed. We then learn through Will’s speech to him about El’s his feelings for him that Will needs Mike and always will. Every single thing Will says to Mike in that speech makes Mike feel infinitely better and more loved than he probably ever has, and all of it came from Will’s feelings and most of it can also be directly disproven as being how El feels. Mike makes her feel like she’s not a mistake at all and that she’s better for being different? El directly told him otherwise just the day before and we see that it’s true. Will’s the one who feels that way. El was mean to him and pushing him away because she was scared of losing him? She actively and enthusiastically wrote him while they were apart and signed all her letters with “Love, El” and tried to remain close. Will was the one doing this and was scared of losing Mike. She needs Mike and always will? Mike said himself that he knew she didn’t, and El was shown dealing with all her problems alone and often without Mike’s support, such as her problems with Angela and the Nina Project. It’s Will who needs Mike and always will. El signed her last letter to Mike after their fight before going to the Nina Project with “From, El”. I don’t know. it all seems to add up pretty well to me. So anyway, it’s Will who loves him the way he craves, and Will’s words and painting are what made him regain hope in his relationship with El because he thought they all came from her, but literally none of them did.

Now that I’ve sufficiently contrasted the two relationships and explained why I think Byler fits better, I’m going to explain why I think Byler has a chance of being canon/endgame:

- Will is completely canonically in love with Mike. This is the huge one and the one that opened my eyes to everything else. Like I said before, if they went halfway there’s a chance they could go the rest of the way too. If they do it right, I could easily see how they could introduce Mike loving Will back in the same way. If there’s a healthy Mileven break up, whose to say Mike can’t realize he’s either been in love with Will for a while and didn’t realize (thanks to heteronormativity), or realizes he loves Will and that Will is right for him after learning that all those words in the van and the painting were all from him? I could see this potentially being done through well-placed flashbacks and providing new insights on old scenes and stuff. It’s possible I think.

- They do have a decent amount of romantic tension and subtext in season 4 in particular. The repeated interruptions during intimate moments where they both are startled out of it, the fight where they say verbatim the words: “You called maybe a couple times. Meanwhile El has like a book of letters from you.” “That’s because she’s my girlfriend, Will!” “And us?” “We’re friends. We’re friends.”, the longing stares and double takes, like come ON! That is so blatant. I am also a strong advocate for the fact that if Will were a straight female character but everything else was the same, wayy more of the GA would ship them, realize they have a chance of being canon, pick up on the romantic subtext to their scenes and their compatibility, etc. Like way more people would realize that they are a valid option for a romantic pairing and I stand by that truth. Even Will being canonically gay and in love with Mike isn’t enough for some of these people because I guess maybe they think there’s no way Mike could like him back since Will is a boy and Mike’s had a girlfriend. First of all, are we forgetting bisexual people can exist, second of all, are we forgetting comphet can exist. There’s multiple ways that Mike liking Will back is possible despite Will being a boy and Mike having had a girlfriend (I am personally a bi Mike truther cause I think he did have a crush on El initially and it would also help explain why it would take him so much longer to realize he’s attracted to boys if he was attracted to girls too, whereas Will never liked girls so he realized he was different much earlier on. I support gay Mike truthers too though I think both are valid😌).

- I do think all the deliberate pairing and framing of them, again particularly in season 4, feels significant. Like the way they’re together all season having heart to hearts while El is gone and her and Mike are having problems and how practically their entire plot is centered around the Will Mike El love triangle. And the last shot of season 4? That one seriously gets me. Like that’s gotta mean something right? Like we have three couples extremely obviously placed as distinguished pairs, literally all eight feet apart from each other, and then El in the foreground alone. Like they could have had the others places as a sort of group or something, but they made the choice to have Nancy and Jonathan standing hand in hand, eight feet away theres Mike and Will standing side by side, and then another eight feet and we have Joyce and Hopper hand in hand. Like?? Anyway. That one feels huge to me.

- Will is the only character of the main group who has not had a romantic storyline yet. He’s the only one who hasn’t had a kiss or relationship or anything. And then we find out (as some had speculated) that he is in fact in love with Mike specifically, and it becomes a central part of his storyline. We’ve also been told that Will will play a huge part in season 5 and will have his coming of age moment, so it sounds pretty plausible that he could get the boy he’s loved for years and finally have the love story he never thought he would. We even have the scene in season 3 where his mom says “You’re not gonna think it’s gross when you fall in love” and Will mumbles “I’m not gonna… fall in love” which seems like it could be foreshadowing to me. Now that we know he is in love and we know who he’s in love with, it seems like it’d be a great payoff and resolution to have him end up with Mike. And just to reiterate, I think it would genuinely be best for El herself and for her character arc to be single, I am not just saying that for Byler’s sake and I put that on everything. But for Will’s storyline, the natural, satisfying, and happy resolution feels like it should be for him to get Mike I think.

- We are shown that Will is very selfless and self-sacrificing multiple times in the show, and this is further shown with his love for Mike. Despite being in love with Mike and feeling him grow distant at times due to his relationship with El, Will does nothing but try to help Mike when he comes to him with his relationship problems. He cares deeply about El and Mike and their happiness, and so he willingly self sabotages and breaks his own heart to push them back together and try to singlehandedly repair their relationship. Like literally. He gives Mike that whole speech about how “El” feels to make him feel better and try to assuage his self doubt and make him feel needed, and it works, and as soon as Mike is feeling better about his relationship with El Will turns to the other side so Mike can’t see him and sobs his eyes out. Like oh my GOD. And then I’m what, not supposed to root for him? This also makes me feel like it’d be such good pay off for Will to then end up with the boy since he loved him so selflessly and patiently from the side all that time. So was this all intentionally set up by the writers? Only time will tell.

- Another thing that hints at a possible Byler endgame for me is the Jancy/Stancy love triangle parallels to the Byler/Mileven love triangle. People talk about a lot of Byler parallels to multiple other relationships in the show but the Jancy ones stick out the most to me. First of all we have the fact that Jancy are literally Byler’s older siblings. They could also be called Byler technically since it’s going off last names. The whole speech that Murray gives to Nancy and Jonathan in season 2 also fits sooo well with Mike and Will. Just replace Nancy with Mike, Johnathan with Will, and Steve with El. And the scene where Nancy and Jonathan sit on the car in season 2 and have a heart to heart when Nancy can’t say I love you to Steve paralleled to the scene in season 4 where Mike and Will sit on a car and have a heart to heart when Mike can’t say I love you to El. And might I also add that the Wheeler and Byers siblings sit on the same sides in both scenes, and both Wheeler siblings hold a soda can in each scene. I feel like that’s gotta be intentional. Right? And as we know, Nancy ends up breaking up with Steve and gets with Jonathan, and I’m rooting for Jancy endgame especially cause we also have them as one of those isolated pairs in the last shot of season 4.

- I do feel like it’d be kinda unsatisfying/weird to end the Will being in love with Mike storyline any other way. Will gets over Mike? Well then why did they establish him being in love with Mike for years, it doesn’t seem like something you just get over. And then what would have been the point of making his character in love with Mike anyway? Angst? They could have had him still help fix Mike and El’s relationship without him loving Mike. Will gets rejected by Mike and has to just deal with it? Again, then what was the point of making his character love him in the first place? And that just feels anticlimactic and cruel, especially considering what Will’s character has been through. I want him to have his happy ending so bad. Will meets a new boy and gets a new love interest? That would be so unsatisfying cause it would just be some rando that the audience isn’t nearly as familiar with/attached to, and for a character as central as Will it just feels lame. And I again raise the question WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE POINT OF WRITING HIM BEING IN LOVE WITH MIKE FOR YEARS? And then if the whole Will loving Mike thing/WillMikeEl love triangle is just never really addressed again in season 5 then that’d just be shitty writing. So anyway. Also, I sorta feel like Mike rejecting Will/not feeling the same way is the more “expected” thing to happen, so him feeling the same and them ending up together would actually be a more satisfying twist. And we know they love a good twist. And again, IF they did it right I think the writers could at least make most of the GA on board with Mileven breakup and Byler endgame by the time it happens.

- Mike’s monologue was not nearly as compelling as it could have been, if you ask me. Which makes me wonder whether or not that was intentional. Flashbacks are used abundantly in season 4 for emotional impact in scenes like that, and to showcase different characters’ important relationships. There was no Mileven flashback montage, in the season of flashback montages. And they totally could have done it!! There are plenty of genuinely cute and happy Mileven snippets that they could have used to make one, so I wonder why they didn’t when they did that for so many other characters. Like would Mike’s monologue not have been the time to do it, to remind the audience of all their good shared moments and reinstill everyone’s faith in their relationship? And also, the main line that irks me from the monologue is where Mike says about the first second he met El “I knew right then and there, in that moment, that I loved you. And I’ve loved you everyday since”, because…. no he didn’t? Like I’m sorry if the writers genuinely meant that to be taken at face value and taken seriously because it’s just objectively not true. Why in the hell would this distraught twelve year old out searching for his missing best friend in the rain, upon coming across a scared kid with a shaved head and wearing nothing but a huge t-shirt in the woods, have his first thought be “I’m in love”? That makes no fucking sense. And we also see that he didn’t! He looks at her in bewilderment, understandably, and that’s the one Mileven flashback we get. And, that night after they bring El back to Mike’s house we hear him telling Lucas and Dustin about how he wanted to send El back around the front of the house in the morning and have his mom deal with her. He says “she’ll send her back to Pennhurst or wherever she comes from and we’ll be totally in the clear.” Does that sound like someone who was in love at first sight? No! Because why on Earth would he have been? So anyway, if the writers were really being fr with that then I genuinely just don’t know what to say. Also the stuff where Mike talks about how she’s a superhero and can fly and move mountains and stuff. I still feel like El wants to be seen as a normal girl and a person and know that Mike loves her for that first and foremost, so those lines are iffy to me too. He could have thrown in more about what he loves about her as an individual I guess. There are so many other compelling, true things they could have potentially written to make the monologue as impactful and “Mileven solidifying” as possible, but they didn’t. I think. And they didn’t include flashbacks. Just saying. And then there’s also the thing people have brought up about how they still don’t seem totally great after the monologue, and we get another Mike and Will heart to heart afterwards where Mike says El hasn’t talked to him much. Like there’s no final Mileven cute scene, or Mileven kiss, or anything.

Okay, now for reasons that I’m not positive that we will get Byler endgame, and why I think it’s still all up in the air and could go either way:

- Mileven has been an established canon romantic pairing since season 1 that many people are used to and also like (even if I do think they’ve fallen a little bit out of the GA’s good graces over the past few seasons), and it does sometimes just seem kind of crazy to think that they’ll break them up in the last season of the show.

- Mileven has had some very cute and endearing moments, and genuinely good scenes. The season 2 reunion is still unmatched actually. Their snowball scenes are also really good, and the scenes in season 1 where Mike calls her pretty, especially after her wig is gone. And their initial love story is cute.

- I do just sometimes have doubts that such a mainstream show will make a gay relationship between two of the main main characters canon, especially when it hasn’t been completely spelled out since the beginning. Cause you know there’s mainstream shows that have blatantly gay characters at the forefront and are mainly targeted at gay audiences, like Heartstopper and stuff, and there’s mainstream shows that aren’t primarily gay shows but have token gay characters (but those characters are more often than not side characters who don’t have much more to their personality other than being gay), but there doesn’t seem to be many mainstream shows targeted at all audiences that aren’t primarily “gay” shows that introduce gay characters and relationships into the forefront. That was a run-on sentence sorry. Point is, it would be kinda crazy and legendary for Stranger Things to end with their two main male characters getting into in a gay relationship in the last season. Will I think is already pretty great representation; he’s a main character with huge plot significance, he’s super well rounded and beautifully portrayed, and him being gay in no way takes up what his character is. Like he’s definitely not reduced to just being a token gay character. He’s the Will Byers. And him being gay only became more blatant and “confirmed” as his character got older and his storyline progressed, but he was always a gay character and you can see it from the beginning if you’re not stupid. Anyway, I digress, I’m just saying I have some doubts because it’s so common to be queerbaited or not have canon gay relationships happen when they aren’t established from the beginning on such big shows that aren’t primarily for gay audiences.

Now before we go, just because I can, a quick list of my favorite Byler moments in (mostly, I think) chronological order:

- Mike biking home crying and then hugging his mom after they find Will’s body in the quarry

- Mike shoving Troy to the ground for making fun of Will and saying he was “in fairyland now, all happy and gay”

- Mike and Will reunion in the hospital where he puts his head on Will’s chest

- Mike finding Will outside the arcade snapping him out of trance putting his arm around him and taking him back in.

- Mike gazing forlornly at Will’s empty desk

- Will screaming for Mike in the upside down

- Mike finding Will and taking him away from everyone else and bringing him to his house on Halloween night when he finds him having a panic attack after a vision (the general pattern of Mike always being the one who finds Will during these things)

- Crazy together scene

- Mike demanding to be let in to the Byers’ house to see if Will is okay

- The “we won’t let him” scene where Mike comforts newly possessed Will and puts his hand on Will’s

- Will screaming for Mike while being wheeled through the hospital in agony

- Will remembering Mike’s name even when the Mindflayer’s possession starts to take over

- Mike carrying unconscious Will at the lab

- The scene where Mike cries while telling possessed Will about the first day they met and how asking Will to be his friend was the best thing he’s ever done, and possessed Will cries too even though he can’t answer

- When Will immediately turned to Mike after that girl asked him to dance at the snowball and he didn’t want to

- The Byler Lumax double date at the movie theater where the pairs sat in seperate rows and everything

- Will’s “I’m not gonna fall in love” scene

- The rain fight where Mike says “It’s not my fault you don’t like girls!” and they both fall silent

- Mike chasing after Will in the pouring rain immediately after the fight to apologize

- Mike and Will hugging when they’re all saying goodbye to the Byers and Will’s crying so hard

- Mike staring back at the Byers’ empty house after the moving van left and everyone rode away with Hopper’s letter narrating

- Mike going home after the Byers were gone looking empty and shell-shocked and hugging his mom, still with Hopper’s narration

- Will painting in his room for Mike with El’s letter to Mike narrating and saying “Will has been painting a lot! But he won’t show me what he’s working on. Maybe it is for a girl! I think there is someone he likes, because he has been acting… weird.”

- Will looking absolutely dopey happy while waiting for Mike at the airport with his painting

- The awkward airport reunion where Will goes to hug Mike and he doesn’t hug him back and pats him on the shoulder instead and Will’s face immediately falls and he doesn’t give Mike the painting or say what it is (why on Earth would Mike do that I feel like that must mean something else too)

- The fight at the roller rink where Mike says the “We’re friends. We’re friends.” line

- Will staring at Mike all during breakfast while Mike is distracted

- The heart to heart in Will’s room where Mike crumples and throws away the letter from El and Will comforts him

- The heart to heart in Will’s room while they’re packing where they apologize for everything from before and Will gets tears in his eyes when Mike says “It’s Hawkins, it’s not the same without you.” and all that stuff and then at the end they both smile at each other in silence and jump when the moment is broken and Jonathan comes in. And then Will decides to put his painting in his back pack

- When Will stares at Mike with the most longing look of all time when they’re out in the desert and Mike looks back at him, sees Will looking at him and does an awkward flustered triple take before going back to what he was doing and Will keeps staring

- When Mike and Will have the heart to heart on top of the car (just like Jancy) and Will says “Sometimes, I think it’s just.. scary, to open up like that. To say how you really feel. Especially to people you care about the most, because, what if- what if they don’t like the truth?” and then gives Mike a meaningful glance

- The talk in the van where Will finally gives Mike the painting but then pretends it’s from El and tells Mike how he feels and also pretends that’s from El and when Mike feels better he turns out to the window and sobs and Jonathan notices the whole thing

- So many longing stares from Will in season 4 and multiple interruptions of intimate conversations

- When Mike and Will have a heart to heart in Hopper’s broken down cabin with the sun beams coming through the broken wall and framing Will beautifully and Mike grabs Will’s shoulder

- The final shot of season 4 with Mike and Will side by side in a distinguished pair staring over Hawkins with the dramatic music

So I think I finally said everything I wanted to say. This was way longer than I expected maybe the longest post of all time. I don’t think I even said anything that hasn’t been said by someone else before but still I just wanted to get all my “Byler vs Mileven” thoughts out in one cohesive thing cause it’s been driving me crazy. But these are all the things I find relevant I guess and anyway yeah Byler endgame please Duffers but if you don’t I’ll survive I guess maybe just please end the show well that’s all I ask. ALSO one last thing if Byler becomes endgame but it’s done in a shitty way I’ll be so mad cause there’s so much potential. If any of them die also I’ll never forgive the duffers that is NOT how I want the love triangle resolved. I don’t want any of those three to be sad I want happy endings all around and that goes for the other characters too they’re all my pookies it’s just that this post was about Byler and Mileven. This is my final word.

#byler #byler analysis #byler endgame #byler endgame real #anti milkvan #anti mileven #sorry i feel so bad tagging anti mileven i dont hate them i swear but i guess this post is mostly anti mileven #byler proof #byler rant #this is the dumbest post of all time #might delete at some point who knows #mike wheeler #mike x will #will byers #eleven hopper #stranger things #stranger things season 4 #el hopper

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strangertheories · 1 year

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I really wished some Byler colleges stopped calling everyone who doesn't like Byler homophobic. Many queer casual viewers don't like it, simply because they unfortunately hate Mike and think Will deserves better. Others are afraid of queerbaiting, and prefer to not get their hopes up. Seeing those people being called atrocious names and being compared to actual homophobes (because dumbies don't even check the person's account before attacking them) is simply disgusting. Also, there are people who simply don't vibe with the ship, and dislike it. There's nothing wrong with that.

Pls, let those people alone. Beefing with them/Constantly insisting on convincing them that Byler is a good ship only is gonna make them dislike it more.

Be self aware.

I agree mostly. In my opinion, it stems from the idea that Will would be treated as more of a valid option if he was a girl and that people would see Byler as way more if they were straight and that is rooted in heteronormativity. Which I agree with. However, I then see people saying Mlvn shippers are heteronormative and therefore founded off bigotry which is where I disagree.

Some Mlvns are homophobic. Some of them just genuinely prefer another option in the love triangle and still would if Will was female. They can acknowledge how others see Byler as romantic but just choose not to. And I disagree with those people and will criticise Mlvn, but I wouldn't call the shippers homophobic for that and it's a huge generalisation that anyone who prefers it a homophobe.

I understand why people think that. When you don't have any Mlvn mutuals or ever look at Mlvn spaces (which is completely fair), you only end up seeing Mlvn shippers in either critiques by Bylers, usually when someone on some social media is being a homophobe, or through homophobic anti-Byler asks. It's very easy to get drowned out by negativity, especially if you're the victim of homophobia, but a lot of Mlvn shippers are actually nice or queer or just enjoy making fan art or fic or incorrect quotes or chatting with their mutuals. I'm never trying to excuse the actions of homophobic Byler antis when I defend Mlvn shippers, I'm talking about the people I just referenced.

What I do slightly disagree with is the statement about arguing with those people because I argue with people who disagree with me sometimes too. Not even because I want them to agree with me, but sometimes people say harmful or rude stuff in my ask box and I will call them out on that. I think calling out homophobia or making fun of Byler antis is also normal as long as you aren't attacking other Mlvn/Byler shippers who aren't involved. But sometimes you aren't trying to change someone's mind, instead you're trying to voice your grievances and rebuttal. I kinda see what you mean though (?)

Thanks for the ask!

#byler #stranger things

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sevensided · 3 years

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Hello, I was wondering how likely you feel it is that Mike and Will will eventually be revealed to have mutual romantic feelings for each other? You seem very down to earth, I have read many analysis pointing out 'parallels' and deep rooted subtext but in the grand scheme of things do think it's a realistic expectation?

Thank you so much for asking this question! Also, I’m really flattered you say I’m down to earth. I think I am too, so I appreciate you mentioning that.

So. Let’s real talk.

I think there is a very strong possibility that Will will be revealed as having romantic feelings for Mike. I hold out hope that the same is said for Mike. Let me explain.

As you said, you’ve read the parallels and the subtextual analyses, so I won’t reiterate the points outlined therein. I think the case for Will being canonically gay is very strong. David Harbour has suggested that season one foreshadows a lot of key events in the story, particularly the end of ST. When we rewatch ST S1, we need to be very clear that the relationship presented between Mike and Will is - while platonic because they are children - evidently of a different and more pronounced depth than what exists between the rest of the Party (which is saying something because they are all very close). We are also presented with Mike - who, it’s noted, has never had a girlfriend, is bullied, and is evidently self-conscious of the fact [as noted when Dustin, I believe, calls him out for being overly invested in El because she’s ‘the only girl’ to ever show him attention]) - latching onto El and emulating specific normative rituals and standards (dressing her up in clothes that are girl-coded, describing certain things as ‘normal’) who quite clearly uses El as a way to retrieve his closest friend, Will, and who then becomes angry with her when she doesn’t do exactly what he wants. I’m reiterating these things because I do think they set up a particular queer subtext that subtly codes Mike as gay.

With that in mind, we need to think about the other, more practical elements of making a television show. I know the fandom likes to use the popularity of Mike and Eleven to establish that a romantic relationship between Mike and Will would be impossible. While I think that is a point, I’m not sure it’s entirely valid. For one, while we still live in a very homophobic culture, Netflix has already signed Stranger Things for a multi-season deal, and it is unlikely to be reneged on the back of a romantic subplot, even if it were queer. Second, it does add value to the Stranger Things brand to include queer characters. People have suspected that Maya Hawke’s role as Robin was a ‘testing the waters’, which I disagree with (Maya came up with Robin’s orientation by herself), but it nevertheless played well and added to the Stranger Things brand. Third, Stranger Things, while it plays heavily - and some might even say it uses it as a crutch - on 80s tropes, it is also undeniable that it subverts those tropes. I notice everyone started talking about this again when this gifset did the rounds again, but who cares? It makes an excellent and sustained point. I’ve said before that if ST was made in the 80s, Mike and Eleven would be endgame. While there is still a chance that might happen, I look at the show’s track record to inform my opinion. I know a lot of these parallels like to play Mike and Eleven off against Mike and Will. That’s blatantly feeding the ship war and contrasting two very different relationships against each other. It’s not helpful and it’s not even in the intentions (I believe) of the Duffers to portray these relationships in competition with one another.

I suspect we will have more of an idea of what the end play is by the time S4 is released... which isn’t a helpful answer now, I know, but it’s an honest one. If Mike isn’t set up as having a sexuality crisis in a similar vein to Will, I will have reservations as to the strength of canon Byler. That doesn’t invalidate fandom as it stands, and it doesn’t make Byler fans to be crazy (together... I mean, what?), it just... is. You can’t change canon. That’s why we have fan fiction.

Do I want Mike to be gay and realise his love for Will? Obviously, and absolutely. Do I think that will happen in canon? I am cautiously optimistic. As I said, S4 is going to be the confirming season, at least for me personally. They need that build-up and they need to establish Mike’s: 1) heteronormativity in the context of the Wheeler family and their normative expectations for their only son; 2) his changing feelings towards El; 3) his feelings towards other men; and 4) his feelings towards Will. These are all very complicated and will be difficult to communicate, particularly to such a varied audience (ST has fans of all ages). I feel that what we have been given, there is chance that S4 will be the most revealing season.

But I must caution everyone not to expect too much. That’s why I’ve said that I hold out hope for Mike being gay. Partly because his character is coded as such, and also because I clearly ship Byler. If they’re not canon I’ll still ship them. But I maintain there is a good amount of evidence for me to seriously think that they will go in a Byler direction. It will be hard to pull off from a writing perspective, especially all they’re committed to exploring this season.

Hard, yes. Impossible? Definitely not.

#byler #stranger things #thank you so so much for this question #i really am cautiously optimistic #but i'm not blind to the realities of writing a meaningful (key word) story #answered #Anonymous

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itsonlystrange · 4 years

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First off, I am not sending hate to any Mileven shipper. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I will only be providing actual facts and evidence, and hopefully will be staying relatively unbiased. As always, this is a PRO-BYLER account. If you do not ship Byler you do not have to read all the way through :).

This will be a 2 part series. The first part will address MILEVEN and how they will not be endgame. The second part will address the likely hood of BYLER being endgame.

So, I’ve been sucked into the Mileven side of Instagram after liking ONE Mileven edit, which is besides the point. Recently I’ve noticed a lot of people say that “They were love at first sight!” Or that “Why would they break up now if they’ve had 3 seasons of development?!” So I’m going to go ahead and supply you all with:

MILEVEN VS BYLER.

PART ONE (MILEVEN)

To start off with the first statement, “They were love at first sight!”

May I remind you how utterly mortified Mike was when he found Eleven. As any 12 year old boy would be. He did not give her any form of “heart eyes”. He looked genuinely scared. He took her home as a courtesy, not because he was “madly in love with her!”. Obviously not everyone would take home a random 12 year old bald girl, but El being taken to the Wheelers was not meant to be seen as a romantic gesture, it was literally just a plot device for the Kids to figure out she had powers.

May I also remind you that Mike wanted to get rid of her. He stated multiple times that she was just a weapon, and a device to find Will. He only let her stay BECAUSE she knew who Will was. He was fully ready to let her go, and send her back to wherever she came from. In the end of it all, he only cared about Will and finding Will. El was simply used as a device to find him. Obviously, now, I do think Mike cares about El. But not in a romantic way, more so a “cute puppy way”. I think he loves her, but that he’s not IN LOVE with her, romantically.

The show has shown constantly how horribly they work together. El’s most confident and prideful moments were when she was AWAY from Mike. Mike’s most loyal and selfless moments was when he was AWAY from El. They do not compliment eachother like that.

Second of all, they have nothing in common. In season one when Mike was explaining his figurines to El, she looked genuinely disinterested. Now some may say that this could be because she didn’t quite understand what she liked back then, which just further proves that she shouldn’t be in a relationship! If she can’t decide if she likes a dinosaur toy or not, how is she supposed to decide if she likes Mike! And we also know that she did have the ability to differentiate between things she liked as she seemed genuinely interested in Nancy’s clothes and photos. The only thing they have in common is shared trauma! Notice how all the other couples share something:

JANCY: love for writing and adventuring

LUMAX: both are comical and enjoy the cinema and the outdoors

DUZIE: science

Along with most of the other couples. But what does Mileven have In common? Can anyone please name ONE good memory between the two when they weren’t in danger. All the “good memories” they have are from when the world was ending.

If you said “Oh, but they make out a lot!” That’s not a ‘good memory’, hell, that’s hardly memorable at at all. Hoppper, Will, and Lucas even admit that for those 6 months in between season 2 and season 3, all they did was make out. That is not love, that is infatuation. Infatuation is a strong desire for someone, mainly romantic, that focuses on the physical aspects of their relationship rather than the emotional. Love is a deep rooted feeling. You do not need to make out all the time to be in love. Love is emotional, of course it can be physical, but you need that strong feeling before any physical aspect of love can be genuine.

Mileven have nothing in common. It’s very clear that Mike is still into D&D and is a nerd. Especially as he might be in the Hellfire Club next season (a D&D club) and also because we’ve seen that D&D is going to be a big aspect of season 4, meaning he’ll most likely be infatuated with it again. It’s obvious that El needs to figure herself out first. She needs to develop into her own human being. She’s still learning. She’s into poppy colors and magazines and makeup (which is great!), but even on a more basic level, they still share nothing in common. Mike is a nerd, we have established that. And notice how in s3 (when he was with El) he felt the least like himself. He acted so out of character. He didn’t use weird Star Wars analogies or gush about the new movie coming out like previous seasons. Now of course one could say that he’s growing up, but we see that he is genuinely still a nerd as when he’s in time of crisis he goes back to those analogies. He goes back to gushing about the new toys he’s getting at Christmas, he goes back to being a nerd. It’s almost as if he’s wearing this mask, and at the end of s3 he forgets to put it on. And then El kisses him, and he realizes that he didn’t enjoy that. So we know for a fact that he is very much still into D&D and those other shenanigans atleast to an extent, considering how happy he was to hear that Will wasnt giving up the party or D&D. Shouldn’t Mike be with someone who is atleast a little similar to him? Regardless of his sexuality, shouldn’t he be with someone that allows him to be his true self? He was incredibly Cocky and arrogant in season 3, almost like he had to be a “man” for El, and in his mind, being a ‘man’ was giving up all of the things he loved, and only kissing El, almost as if she was an object he had to obtain more than an actual human. Which Max agrees with! He treats her more so of a mask he has to wear to cover his true self. Shouldn’t el be with someone who likes the same thing she does? But then again, what does el like?! Exactly! She needs to figure out who she is before she dates anyone. She didn’t even know what shirt she would like to wear!

Now I just find this silly. Development? Really? Okay let me show you their “development”

SEASON ONE: El could only speak 4 or 5 words. They had essentially zero romantic interactions besides the kiss at the end. If El and Mike never kissed (excluding the time they almost kissed in the bathroom), people would most likely only see them as a friendship. Let’s flip the tables a bit. If El was a boy and Mike and El never kissed, this would further prove that they don’t have any romantic tension. Lucas says it the best: “You only like her because she’s the only girl who isn’t grossed out by you!” Which I agree with completely. It’s more of an infatuation. Mike is infatuated with the idea of finally having a girlfriend. Because he knows something is wrong inside him and wants to ‘fix it’ by dating a girl, as if suddenly his sexuality identity issues would disappear. El doesn’t know anything about Mike, and to El, Mike is a hero. To El, Mike is fearless warrior. And Mike knows that isn’t true. But with el, it gave him the chance to start fresh. It gave him the chance to start and become a different person. He puts on his persona of being “strong” and being able to stand up for himself, yet in the end, it’s El who does the saving. The reason he ‘likes’ El so much is because she isn’t disgusted by him. But mike is afraid that if he shows his true self, El wouldn’t like him anymore, and he’d lose that mask. And without a girl to cling to, he’d finally have to confront his sexuality. Which is why we never see Mike being his true self around El. In every single season, he is this false person. He’s wearing a facade, to keep up with these lies. Because he fears that If El knew how nerdy he really was, she’d be uninterested, and he ‘can’t lose her’ because he knows that El is most likely the only girl who will never be grossed out by him. Because all the other girls in this town know who he is. That nerdy guy from the AV club. And he needs a girlfriend. He feels safe that way. Because if he doesn’t have a distraction from his sexuality then he might take an extra step on accident and accidently act on those feelings

Ep 1: making out

Ep2: breaking up

Ep 3-6: fighting

Ep 7: neutral

Ep 8 ½ : neutral

Very end of ep 8: together?

How is that romantic? So from what we know, Mileven got a kiss in season 1, a kiss in season 2, 2 make out sessions, and then they fought. HOW IS THAT A GOOD RELATIONSHIP?

90% of their relationship throughout all 3 seasons has been kissing and fighting. That’s literally it. Not once have we seen them just hanging out and talking. Not once have we seen them go on dates. And as Hopper, Lucas, and Will put: that’s all they do! The Duffer’s purposefully put that line in to show that, it’s really all they did for those 6 months. There was no emotion to that. Just kissing. That’s it. Kissing and fighting is all Mileven has been. And honestly they would have been pretty cute in season 3 if the Duffer’s hadn’t messed it up. But the duffers aren’t stupid! They did this on purpose! Because they wanted us to disagree with Mileven. They wanted us to find it obnoxious. Because they know that they don’t have chemistry! Finn and Millie are brilliant actors and could have definitely pulled that off, meaning the Duffers had to have specifically said to “not act in love”. Mileven is a summer fling, Finn said so himself. They are their true selves when they are apart, and when they are together romantically, they stunt each other’s growth. They’re way better as bestfriends. El needs to figure herself out before she can date anyone.

Thank you for reading part one! Part two will be up soon, and will follow why I believe Byler will be end game!

Heavy inspiration from @kaypeace21 & @hawkinsschoolcounselor

#stranger things 4 #stranger things #byler #byler rights #byler theory #stranger things theory #anti mileven #byler is endgame #st4

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kaypeace21 · 5 years

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why is there so much denial of Will being gay?? Like, nothing Will has done has shown him to be anytging but possibly gay. Like, nobody thinks he'z gay because he's a nerd that doesn't have a girlfriend!! We think he's gay because of all the fucking subtext!!!!

There are a few reasons for this, and they’re all (for the most part) rooted in homophobia. 1) There are those who (may or may not) notice the subtext, but ignore it with the excuse of “he’s too young; stop sexualizing him!”. All while shipping lumax, and mileven. Whether they want to admit it or not, this is homophobic! They view (subconscious or otherwise) being queer as inherently sexual, dirty, and adult. And that only straight relationships can be pure and innocent and based on compatible personalities. Straight kids can have innocent crushes (but in their eyes) queer kids can’t- they may not even exist, to them.

2) There are some mileven shippers (who whether they want to admit it) hate Will, because the possibility he has powers or is gay- threatens their precious het ship. Because a lot of them don’t see El as her own person (just a part of their ship) or a vessel for being a badass with powers. They don’t appreciate her for the nuanced character she is. They either get angry at the idea of Will being gay or having powers, or are only happy with him being queer if he’s sad and in an unrequited one-sided love/ or is single forever. Or they’ll say “why don’t you just ship him with someone else… like Dustin?” Ignoring the fact Dustin hasn’t been queer coded like Mike (or had romantically coded scenes with Will), or that people ship byler for Will and Mike, not cause it’s simply m/m. I mean, can you imagine byler shippers saying ‘Just ship El with Dustin, it’s a guy and girl… it’s practically the same thing”? No, of course not! It shows their bias- and how they feel privileged and entitled to their straight ship even though there are millions of similar ships in media to choose from- unlike queer ships which are far and few in between. However, we’re supposed to be the ones who pick another option- and are told our ships are ‘all the same’. Whether they are aware of this bias, they consider queer ships a joke, and all the same.

3) Those who relate to Will and his struggles, hate the idea of relating to a queer character. There is a reason why shows like ‘Will &Grace’ in the 90s were popular, but even today the second a character who people assumed was straight is revealed as lgbt+ viewers get angry! It’s because they feel ‘tricked’ into liking, relating and empathizing with a character that they would otherwise have immediately put in a ‘box’ and distanced themselves from . Whether they are aware of it or not, they would immediately attribute stereotypes to them and never try to empathize with them, because ‘they’re gay, and ‘how can I relate to that’? They don’t want to relate to them (because subconscious or otherwise) they think being gay is bad or just too foreign.They don’t see queer people as full-fledged people. They’re just gay- nothing more.

Which is why when they angrily say “he’s just afraid to grow up, HE’S NOT GAY!” They are essentially saying a gay, abused kid, who has ptsd, and was violated by the MF (and was also hinted m**ested by Lonnie too) can’t be afraid to grow up, since he lost his childhood. Only straight people have these type of human-fears and characterizations!

Forget the fact, that Will also wouldn’t want to grow up- because than he’d have to acknowledge his sexuality (at a time where all you heard about gay men was they were evil , mentally ill, going to hell and dying of aids as a punishment by god). Not to mention Will’s ptsd and the fact he lost 2 years of his childhood on top of that.He even says “I’m not … going to fall in love” (not convincingly) , right after the movie date with Mike.

4) They’re so used to straight media, and everyone being presumed straight and having media catered to them (the straight audience)- That they’ll ignore or miss every hint there is a queer character.

So what are the hints of Will being gay (or at least- some other lgbt identity.

Called many homophobic slurs since s1 ( specifically ”queer, fag, fairy, and gay”) by his dad and bullies. Jonathan in s1 tells Will to “not like things just because people tell you you’re supposed to, especially not him” ( ‘him’ referring to their dad). Is positioned behind a rainbow apple poster in the av room (ref. to Alan Turning the gay creator of computers), dances with a girl with a rainbow hair-clip, has rainbow bandaids, has his mom says she’s ”so proud” (lgbt+ pride ref) of the rainbow ship he drew . When Will disparages himself as a “freak”, Jonathan asks Will, who would you rather be friends with- David Bowie (who was openly bi since the 70s) or Kenny Rogers? Will says Bowie, and Jonathan agrees saying “see, it’s no contest”. In the pitch to netflix the Duffers described Will as having “sexual identity issues”. In the leaked s2 snowball script it says “he’s not looking at the cute girl- but Mike.”

All of s2 directly paralleled ‘romantic s1 mileven scenes’ to ‘supposedly platonic byler scenes’. No joke, they had identical scenes, with almost identical framing and dialogue, but it’s all dismissed as friendship (even though the scenes are identical).Byler was also paralleled to Jancy, Stancy, Jopper, bob/joyce and others. . You can headcannon Will as whatever you want, but like it or not- Will is queer and m/m! We could debate his exact queer sexual identity , but Will was never written and will never be written to be ‘straight’! Stay mad!

If Will was Wilma, the majority of the fandom would be byler shippers. Think about it! Mike having byler scenes that are identical to s1 mileven scenes, and then additional unique byler scenes. Mike staying by Wilma’s side 24 hours a day for several days (not even changing clothes), carrying her out of the hospital, grabbing her hand (with a zoom in shot),constantly asking her if she’s okay at least 5-7 times, putting his arm around her twice, being the only one who could tell something was off with her (and it wasn’t her normal type of quiet). Calling and running all the way to her house and banging on the door to check on her, desperate. Proclaiming “i’m the only one who cares about Wilma!” Watching her sleep cause he’s so worried, that shed scene reminiscing about how they first met in perfect detail, saying “I asked, I asked if you wanted to be my friend. You said yes, you said yes. It was the best thing I’ve ever done. (like a marriage proposal)” The “crazy together” scene. Them being close since they were 5 vs the girl he knew for a week (but is somehow in love with?). If the witness said about El in s1 , “ same height… it could be the Byers girl”, instead of ‘boy’ (pointing out the resemblance). Mike getting into fights and getting upset (almost crying) about the bullies insulting Wilma. Mike having a whole binder of her drawings and caressing one of the drawings, after he thinks she died. Being the only one of her friends to stay awake at the hospital, waiting for her to wake up- so he can see her and hug her first. Almost everyone would be team byler if Will was a girl- they probably would of started shipping it the second Wilma stared at him and was the only one who didn’t lie to him, in the first ep! Another parallel to El!

And again think about s3 if Will was a girl.They paralleled the (comedic) mileven breakup vs (the sad/serious) byler breakup. Then Mike just complained and burped on the couch vs apologizing to Willma multiple times/even going into a storm to apologize a 2nd time (and to ‘talk’). Willma having a breakdown over the fight vs El laughing and high five-ing Max after.The shed vs the pool shed scene- “best thing I’ve ever done” vs “you’re the most important thing in the world to me”, “blank makes you crazy’ (as El stares confused) vs “crazy together’ (where Wilma says ‘yeah, crazy together). Mike going on ‘movie dates with Willma all the time’ right after making out with El. The last mileven kiss where Mike has his eyes open the whole time, doesn’t kiss back, and says he doesn’t remember saying “I love her” to El (and doesn’t say ‘I love you’ back). Right after having a talk with Wilma about playing games when she comes back (the crux of their fight). Mike getting excited that he’ll be able to visit El and Wilma on Thanksgiving and them visiting him on Christmas (those are holidays where family usually introduces their S.O.) Having the last scene of Mike, be him looking back at Wilma’s house, and have that whole monologue in that scene be about “feelings changing”, and then he goes to hug his mom like the s1 byler scene where he thought Wilma was dead. And that’s not even all the scenes- and every time byler won by a landslide. If Will was a girl, it would be obvious writing on the wall, that Mike would eventually choose Wilma over El by the end of the series.

But since they are 2 boys, we’re delusional, because queer kids don’t exist … apparently.

#byler #byeler #will byers

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