#and i think knight!dess could be fun too

[agentravensong]

On Susie, the (Roaring) Knight, and the Angel

In a post of mine from less than a month after DR Chapter 2 came out, I compiled a list of details about Susie that seemed, for lack of a better word, sus. You can read the full thing here, but right now, I want to focus on one specific path of inquiry I went down there - really, just one line:

This is Susie's title as a party member in the time between her joining the party "for real" in Chapter 1 and her learning healing magic in Chapter 2.

I don't think I need to explain why seeing the narration - the game itself (or whoever the narrator is) - call Susie a Knight unprompted is concerning. However, I don't think it's evidence toward Susie being the Knight. What it means instead? Originally, I wasn't sure.

But I might have come up with an answer. Let me try and lay this out:

We know little about the Knight's motivation, but I believe we can at least be confident that they want to bring about the Roaring. After all, Queen introduces them as "The Roaring Knight", but is shortly after revealed to not know what the Roaring even is or entails. In my mind, the only reason she therefore would have called the Knight that is if they introduced themself with that title; and it would be weird for them to name themself after a calamity they don't intend to cause.

That being said, I think there's a likely secondary component to the Knight's motivations. I mean, the Roaring doesn't seem to be good for Darkners (who all turn to stone) or Lightners. So either the Knight just wants chaos (making them Jevil 2.0), or to have the Titans end the world because of nihilistic bullshit, or... there's something else we're missing.

Remember how Ralsei's initial prophecy describes the heroes saving the world(s) by "banish[ing] the Angel's Heaven"?

I think bringing about that Heaven is the Knight's true goal. That, whatever it is, the Knight believes it's worth bringing about the Roaring for.

Now, why is all this relevant?

Well, the Angel has been associated with light, both directly ("Let the Angel's power light your way." - Father Alvin) and via references to Heaven's light. So, if the Knight is in some way working on behalf of the Angel, then one could technically call them a "light knight".

And Susie? Susie's a dark knight.

Which is to say, it's my theory that Susie will be the one in most direct opposition to the Knight in the end, with the two potentially even being narrative foils to each other.

...That's where I was originally going to end this post. But then I started thinking more about the hints we've gotten about the Angel so far, and I remembered how Noelle, especially in the Snowgrave route, is associated with angelic motifs.

And then my brain hit on something, in the same vein of the dark knight / light knight dichotomy:

You know how Susie's signature move is Rude Buster, and one of her additional stats is Rudeness?

What would you say is the opposite of "rude"?

If that seems random and unrelated, consider this dialogue from Catti:

To be clear. This is not me saying Noelle is the (light/Roaring/Holy*) Knight... though, Queen certainly seems to think she has it in her to become such a Knight. And considering that she's almost the one who goes with Susie into the supply closet in Chapter 1, and then gets trapped in the library dark world, with the Knight potentially having waited in the closet for her (and Berdly)... one could argue that the Knight is taking a particular interest in her.

* I put "Holy" as an alt title for them because, ya know, angels are holy, and the fountain track being called "The Holy"... but now I can't help but think of the Christmas carol "O Holy (K)Night". Hmm.

But no, I don't think she's that Knight.

And this isn't meant to throw a wrench into Suselle endgame or anything. I dunno if it even means that Susie and Noelle will ever be pitted against each other.

But I do think it's a possibility. That Noelle, upon finding out about what the Angel's Heaven is, might be... let's say... swayed. Especially if she, say, loses a family member, and is told that it could bring him and/or her missing sister back. Especially, again, on Snowgrave.

Meanwhile, I know Susie would, despite what she said to Ralsei in Chapter 1, do anything to stop the Roaring from actually happening, simply because she cares so much about her friends, Lightners and Darkners, and, as I already said, the Roaring would be good for neither group.

But of course, Noelle is one of those friends too. And I don't think it's a given that Noelle would be so easily swayed either; even if she says that she isn't strong, and that she can't say no to most people, she proves by the end of Chapter 2 in the normal route that she has a strong will of her own (something that, again, Queen already recognized in her). I imagine that will of hers will only develop further as the game progresses. It'd take a lot to convince her, especially at such a later point of development, to be willing to doom the world.

So, really, I don't feel confident making any predictions about anything that might happen between her and Susie based on all this.

The "dark knight" / "light knight" thing, tho? That's gonna be something. Even if the game won't use the term "light knight" (cause it does sound kinda dumb).

Now, some of you might be wondering: what about Kris? Whether or not they're the Roaring Knight, which would complicate everything even further, they clearly have some knight coding, with their dark-world outfit and all. Not even just coding; their creation of a fountain at the end of Chapter 2 technically makes them a Knight. So, what kind of Knight are they?

Well. I have my own speculations, but I think it comes down to someone else. Especially if that someone - or something - else is, as some theorists have speculated, the true Angel.

(The SOUL. I'm talking about the SOUL.)

For now, Kris is a neutral party, caught between both worlds. We've seen them make at least one fountain now, but was it for the sake of helping bring about [[Heaven]] on Earth? Or do they have different, "darker" intentions?

What really is the ideological difference between "dark/rude" and "light/holy/polite" that this post has been circling around? It likely has to do with the overarching thematic tension in the game between chaos and order, freedom and control. But what does that actually mean?

What would it mean for Susie to be the Knight's true antithesis? If the Knight is acting in service of the Angel... then who - or what cause/oath - is Susie taking on the role of Knight for?

And if the dark and the light are truly opposites, then why does it take bringing about an overflow of darkness to fully realize the Angel's Heaven?

Questions for another time.

...though, as much as it pains me to say (/lh), Berdly may in fact have pointed us toward the answer to that last one:

[desultory-novice]

Once again, my ask box is so packed that I'm bundling a few of these so I don't have to take up everyone's day/dashboard with posts!

This time:

-The Fate of Mirror Galacta Knight -Traitor Magolor vs Elfilis?! -Kirby from Undertale?! (Silly) -Other Characters Babysitting 10 Kirbys -Magolor and Daroach Thievery Dynamics -A Redemption Arc for Zero?! -The Love-Love Stick is The Best

Anon, your concept that there WAS a Mirror Galacta Knight but that they were defeated - perhaps by Galacta themselves - is awesome!! I think the concept that either one or both Galacta's maybe even has a goal to see the other versions of themselves destroyed, pre- or post-sealing, feels very in character for Gala. Perhaps Gala knows of the Dimensional Mirror and doesn't like the concept of falling prey to it. Perhaps Gala truly does seek power and will only be confident in themselves when they are THE only one. Or perhaps they see what's coming and want to stop themselves from banishment and imprisonment across countless dimensions.

As for Galacta borrowing something in memory of his mirror self.. why not, right?! I think that's very cool! Aeon hero is able to turn their wings black and change his armor. It's not out of the realm of possibility! (Nothing is too fanfiction-y to have as a HC! Because neither headcanons or fanfic is something to be ashamed of! So please, indulge in all the fanfic-y thoughts that you wish!)

As for the last part, I totally believe that Magolor saw or encountered Galacta Knight at some point. (I always thought it would be funny myself if the first time Magolor is made aware of Gala is the Lor recording a snipped of Galacta's battle with Meta Knight in the Meta Knightmare Returns. You know, that easter egg where you can sometimes see the Starcutter in the background when Gala attacks? And so Magolor is going through the logs and notices, "Wait, was that a dimensional rift we just passed by? Whoa! Who's the dude who looks like an angry Kirby fighting Meta Knight?! ...Wait, weren't there legends of someone like that in those old texts?")

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@a-stardusted-sky

Ahh, thank you so much for the birthday wishes and the nice compliments! I hope you're having a lovely day yourself!

OMG, Traitor Magolor vs Fecto Elfilis in the battle of the big, self-important egos! I can't help but think that even though Magolor ought to have "unlimited power" thanks to the Master Crown, he feels a little limited in creative ways to use that power. Whereas Elfilis would probably have no end of ways to use their dimensional power to ruin Magolor's day! They're both super persistent though, so I imagine neither one would want to give an inch.

As for how Elfilis would react, I imagine those choice words would get even spicier upon seeing Magolor flitting around with the Master Crown. Honestly, if Elfilis has enough of an understanding of the powers made from THEIR power, they could simply toy with Magolor knowing that all they have to do is damage/overload the Crown and then just leave Magolor a gloopy mess.

Is it just me? Sometimes I think of Elfilis as one of those characters that doesn't even have WORDS when they get angry. I think their speech in Lab Discovera was somewhat practiced, and that the capsule had something of a restraining effect on their emotions. Whenever they're free, they're mostly seen roaring and wrathing at people (in contrast to the angelic beauty of their completed form.)

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@emeraldcoloredwinter

Not that shocking...!

Pictured: A Peaceful Family Reunion?!

(PS: are there still proponents of the theory that Sans is Ness grown up or was that exactly the kind of theory we make fun of Game Theories for now? I'm so out of the loop...!)

...But also, does that make Gaster Dark Matter? Or some other form of Matter? (...Stop! You shouldn't ask questions you aren't remotely equipped to handle the potential response to, Dess...!!)

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This is a concept that I absolutely love! And it's been explored so little from what I've seen?! There's that one, err, somewhat infamous(?!) animation series which... ah, congrats on them for putting in all that work to get it done, and I won't say anything negative about them including content that appeals to them personally when, from what I've seen, everything manages to stay in the proper rating. Plus, making a full animation series has got to be SUCH an endeavor that you likely need to write/draw what you love to keep yourself motivated/sane in order to finish but...it's not personally for me. ^^

(Reminds me a bit too much of some of the western animation of my childhood that I wasn't too fond of. Aka, the reason I pivoted to watching anime as soon as I had the chance. ^^; )

BUT that aside, I've also seen some cute fanart on Twitter and such of Magolor not babysitting the 10 Kirbys but commenting on them...and then trying to steal one or two of them while no one is looking to keep for the sake of teasing on his own!

But yes, the idea of other caretakers is rich!

I personally think, in an adventure scenario like Mass Attack, Magolor would have a great time "accidentally" misleading the Kirbys into non-lethal traps, just to see how they fare. Marx would absolutely be a pest to the mini Kirbys! I think, when the chips are down, he would defend them (Kirby is HIS to torment, after all!!) but in times of relative peace, he'd probably try to eat a few... just to see...

The Animal Friends are used to backing up Kirby and would step into the role with no problem. I think Rick would love to ferry the tiny Kirbys around, them clinging to his fur. I think Ribbon's reaction to the 10 tiny Kirbys could be very funny, although that probably depends on where you fall on shipping the two of them.

Meta Knight would be another one who would be really fun/zany for different reasons. I think he would initially TRY to be stoic and treat the 10 Kirbys as if they were as reliable on their own as regular Kirby but then the moment something happens to one of them (even if they ARE in fact okay) his stoic facade breaks and he becomes a nervous wreck/helicopter guardian mode!

The Mage Sisters feel like they would cover the whole spectrum of reactions! Francisca wanting to "keep" some for herself. Flamberge wanting to test how strong they are and laughing when they turn out to be only 1/10th the original Kirby's power. Zan being the one who just... can't stop being ~SHOOKETH~ about the whole thing. (And the fact that Flam and Fran won't stop giggling about the minis!)

Dark Meta Knight would probably swoop them up and them drop them on Shadow Kirby to deal with. Susie would probably be a relatively reliable helper, keeping in touch via her tech whenever any trouble shows... in exchange for the rights to merchandise the mini-Kirbys after everything is over. >w<

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@icedragonlizard

Hee! I got around to reading some of your dynamics posts, by the way! They're really good! (I still have more to read through yet!) But yes! This is super cute! Especially since both their tastes lean toward the collection of the ancient... and dangerous!

It's absolutely one of those things where one or the other will be proudly talking about their latest haul/salvage and the moment they have their eyes turned, the other is walking out the door with it!

Neither means the other any harm, so it doesn't hurt their friendship any. But there is absolutely a twinge of jealousy. 

"H-How did you...?! But... but... I've been looking for that EVERYWHERE!" "Looks like you were looking in the wrong places."

Everyone else is probably relieved by this strange dynamic they've got because it keeps most of the rest of THEIR collections safe!

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Hmm, you know, I'm not certain that Zero as they are COULD have a redemption arc. They feel too... primordial for that. As if they are nothing more than the incarnation of what they can become, which renders them nil (fufu...) to change.

But Zero 2.... yes. I think there's room there. I think Zero 2 is a lot like Void in that they are searching for identity after their destruction and resultant... rebirth? (Or simply the act of living on in a new form? Zero 2 is such a fascinating mystery!)

But I think about the fact that while Zero's theme is just mystery and weirdness and fight music, Zero 2's theme is so... sad. 

(Btw, I listened to Man on the Internet's Zero 2 with lyrics recently and really liked it. It had this great feeling of... inevitability to it? I'm typically a bit mixed on Kirby boss themes (:cough: I haven't yet found a Marx one I like though I really like some of the lyrical motifs in Itoki Hana's version :cough:) but I liked this one.)

Anyway, as for Zero 2's redemption, I think it would all tie back to the fairies, really. Zero 2 spent pretty much the entire length of the game possessing the Queen of Ripple Star and I'm one of those "you can't really possess someone/be possessed by someone without that having an effect on you. For both the possessor and the possessed."

And whether or not the Queen is one of the heroes of lore, we have reason to believe she is both a being of power and a powerful being for good. (Why else would Dark Matter target Ripple Star FIRST without getting near Popstar? Well, getting their non-existent tail kicked might have something to do with it! XD )

So basically, I imagine that either Zero 2 picked up...something from the Queen or that the Queen might take it upon herself to preserve some form of Zero 2. To give it a chance to redeem itself. Surely, this would wig out certain of the fairies, who still remember their home's invader, and I imagine Zero 2 to be something that would probably have a very hard time understanding the difference between doing good and doing evil - only that one gets praised and one doesn't.

They might never be able to understand. They might never be able to be a friend, or left alone with an innocent creature, as invasion and corruption could be so woven into their nature that they couldn't HELP but hurt it, even though no intention to do harm was there. But through a bond/a deal with the queen, they might be assist in helping other planets that Zero had harmed or at least be stopped from harming anyone else.

...I dunno. It's interesting though!

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@newthinkerer

I love the Love-Love Stick so much! You're right in that it's so uniquely Kirby's! Not just as an artifact, but as a representation of what Kirby would do when a genki dama's worth of power is sent his way! (Sorry for the random DBZ reference!

That and Dess loves magical girls / maho shoujo shows so the fact that is a really good approximation of a magical transformation wand is also excellent in my book! (Let Kirby Be A Magical Girl!!)

Speaking of the maho shoujo genre... a decent variety of finishing attacks are about "healing" the inner darkness/corruption/violence of their opponent/monster of the week rather than destruction. That Kirby would fight Zero with love in an attempt to heal them/the damage they have done to Popstar... It's all too good!

(The fact that it destroys them and all the Dark Matter too is a bit sad. But Void takes damage from Friend Hearts so...)

I like your idea about Gooey too. Either taken perfectly literal or as a metaphor -- that Gooey couldn't/was afraid to tap into their Dark Matter origins until he was shown enough love and acceptance that it was safe for him, emotionally, to do so.

...But of course, the other best thing about the Love-Love Stick is that Kirby KEEPS IT after the events of Dream Land 3 only to proceed to use it to bap people over the head with it in Star Stacker SNES!! Gryll, you have the honor of being defeated by the same weapon that was used to obliterate Zero. And yet, Gryll totally survived. Gryll strongest last boss canon?!?

[trinkerichi]

more deltarune theory rambling

i love the darkners!! theyre toys! theyre little things built for entertainment! and it's not like toy story where they're living in our world and we just dont see them being alive, no, they have their own dimension! they're aware of lightners and aware of their role to play, but from their perspective theyre essentially locked into a play-world with no ability to significantly affect the light world at all. thats such a fascinating concept. and we've seen what happens when they fully realize their position! we've seen that through spamton and jevil! the spade king and queen! they're basically driven insane!

there's a lot about their world we don't know the rules for yet but. aaah

like, the ones who haven't been "enlightened" by the knight yet, what do they think? how far does their awareness of the lightners go? they talk as if they've existed before the dark fountains appeared, at least i think they do? the fact that someone created the dark worlds, (my theory is it was a joint thing between Asriel and Kris) but still. Did they create sentient life? If Lancer and the Sweet Capn Cakes were somehow brought into the light world, would they behave as the other lightners do?

Or, did the dark world's creator essentially program some video game npcs? ut and dr exist as meta-narratives on the nature of video games themselves after all. It would make sense, with how the darkners essentially play roles tailor made for the lightners who enter, and if it really WAS a game made by Asriel and Kris, they'd want to give all of their toys a fun role to play in their escapist fantasy.

But then there's Spamton. he became at least somewhat aware of the light world and tried to break out. He went off-script! Is that why Kris was so shaken by him? (besides the obvious reasons.) Why Ralsei was immediately so dismissive of the whole encounter? Maybe he assumes it really was just a glitch. Oh their game has a few little bugs here and there, but that doesn't mean spamton is REALLY aware of their reality right? Kris shouldn't worry about it!

My theory so far, is that Kris and Asriel created the dark worlds together as a fantasy they could both escape to. If their relationship is anything like Chara and Asriel's from Undertale, we know they're VERY committed to each other and extremely self-destructive about it.

So Asriel was given the power to create the dark worlds from whoever the "knight" is. (maybe gaster? idk) The knight has some kind of ulterior motive. Maybe it's to use Asriel's power to truly access alternate worlds? Maybe the Knight needs a conduit like that, like it's gaster and he's trying to return to his original world? idk i'm getting off track. Maybe Asriel BECAME part of the dark worlds as part of the deal?

That means that Ralsei pretty much IS Asriel. Asriel who chose to live in the fantasy world. (Mighta happened to Dess too.) Asriel and Kris are both in on the script and they're playing their game together. Susie and Noelle and Berdly and the rest of the town are gonna get roped in at some point, and the dark world accommodates them with personalized ideal situations. That's what it's for! They're playing toys! It's all pretend. So Ralsei doesn't feel like he has to be terribly concerned about the fate of their little toy friends whenever something bad happens to them, besides the surface level "let's be nice to them!"

All that to say, if Spamton truly did break through the "programming" and become aware of the light world, that'd make him sentient. At least on some level, more self-aware than the others. Which would start making their whole playtime fantasy world REALLY creepy. And Kris is basically thinking "Oh GOD Asriel does this place have real people in it?? have we been messing with lives??" And Asriel is like "nah its fine!! dont think about it!! it's just a glitch haha" But they're both playing with something much bigger than them..

IDK WHATEVER I LIKE THE FUNNI GAME

[dattosdan]

Who yall think will be future party members? Me personally, my list of potential party members would be:

Toriel (Obviously, she's in chapter 3)

Asgore (would make sense if toriel was a party member)

Catti (Idk why, noelle and berdly were both in chapters so she might be too, and she might be a party member)

Asriel (would make sense, he's coming home sometime this week, would make a pretty dope last addition)

Dess ( Theres a line said by susie about dragon blazers about having the princess be a part of your party even if she's super weak, could be a metaphor for dess)

Sans (if you think the brothers house will be a dark world or papyrus is the knight, makes sense sans would get involved somehow)

The knight (Could be a cool ass final boss fight where you team up with the villain in a last stand against the true final boss or something)

Again, these are all just guesses, there might not even BE other party members, having the fun gang be the only ones with noelle as quick cameo would be cool too, but i would like at least some these to be true, let me know who you think would be cool to have.

[clambuoyance]

Deltarune Ch 3 Theory (Spoilers!)

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This will be sort of a ramble, and I’ll do my best to include screenshots, but this is my personal theory and thoughts on what’s happening and where Ch 3 is headed. Most of this stuff has probably been said by others, so this is mostly for me to come back to!

1. Kris

So there are a lot of moments that seems to hint to Kris’ homelife and I’ll just sort of go through them here. 

When you look through the room Queen trapped you in, there’s a calendar with a vacation date circled from a search query about when college has summer break. Given how close Asriel and Kris seem to be, I’m pretty sure Kris is really anxious to see Asriel and have his support back. 

Because Toriel and Asgore seem to have divorced fairly recently? Or at the very least, I think it’s still definitely taking a toll on Kris, and Asriel leaving does NOT help at all. It makes me wonder if there’s more to him leaving for college. 

There’s another curious thing where if you  decide to look through Asriel’s room, Kris shuts their eyes and seems to not want to see what’s inside, despite what the Player might want. Why? Afraid of what they’ll see? What could Asriel possibly be searching for that Kris would be afraid of the truth?

I think some incident happened in the past, one that’s related to the Dreemurr and the Holiday family growing apart, Noelle’s sister “Dess”, and Asgore apparently being removed from the police force. (If maybe he was powerless or cowardly to do something, this could have led to a divorce and Asriel leaving? I’m not sure, but I think Dess has died or its related tot he incident, and Asriel seemed close with them too so I’m sure it was also hard on him.)

(i didnt take a screenshot of the newsclipping with this info but ill put it here later lol)

Circling back to Kris, there’s several details that hint to Kris’ mindset, and basically, I think Kris doesn’t want to grow up because when you grow up you grow apart and don’t live out fun fantasies anymore. Maybe.

If you go to the flyer in the librarby,  and read the one about the ICE-E event that says “Where teens can still be Kids!” Kris is relieved, for some reason. Probably because they’re glad to hear they still technically count as a kid. 

Not directly related but if you go up to the upperright room and read the book about humans, Kris quickly shuts it. Given the similarities and hints to Chara from Undertale, it seems like Kris wanted to get away from other humans or humanity in general. Which also aligns maybe with Kris being fearful of the bunker. I really don’t know what to make it past this though. Crack theory was that the world of Undertale was just a Dark World Kris made as a kid or something. Or that when “Chara” fell, it was a fall similar to how Kris and Susie fall when entering a Dark World. Lmao probably unrelated though.

2. Dark Worlds and Escapism

The Dark Worlds seem to function as some sort of escapism, and it’s interesting that they’re all based on real life things. In Chapter 1, the Dark World was based on the classrooms various toys like checkers, chess, cards, dolls,etc. In Chapter 2, it seems even more so with Noelle. Queen actually wants the best for Noelle and is very nosy and always chasing after her, in contrast to Noelle’s real mom who is always busy being a mayor. After all, Queen does know how sad Noelle’s search history probably is. (Mainly from this post!)

(screenshots to be added lol)

Kris probably feels the same way, as both Noelle and Kris grew up together and seem to be suffering from dysfunctional families or some sort of drama.

And Queen directly says in the boss fight with Berdly that the internet and the screens provide comfort for many people, and she is well-intentioned in wanting to help make people happy. Maybe for Kris it’s video games or roleplaying or toys or silly things, kind of like how many people in the real world do similar things. I wonder if the next chapters will each focus on a different character and other forms of escapism or storytelling. 

3. The Knight

So at the end of Chapter 2, Kris rips out the Player Soul and slashes the tires to Toriel’s car. Then later Susie talks about how cool it would be if they could bring Ralsei and Lancer and everyone to their world and hang out with them. Then Kris takes the Player out once again and pulls out a knife, fills the “Blade” with their “Will”, aka Determination, and creates a new dark fountain that encompasses their whole home (and maybe even the whole town). 

(screenshot laterrrr)

It seems that the tires were to ensure Toriel stays inside the house though, so maybe it’s just the house. If that’s the case, and Kris really is the knight, I think Kris wants to envision a better home where things are better. Escapism right inside your own home.

If it’s the whole town, then maybe Kris already had Susie’s idea and really is going to take everyone in a new Dark World so everyone can be together. That or Susie inadvertently gave Kris the idea..it makes me wonder if we’ll see Toriel in her outfit from Undertale, or something like that. The other reason I could see it being a town-wide thing is because now Kris has the knowledge of the Roaring (thanks to Ralsei).  I’m not too sure what their stance would be, but maybe they see a benefit to it?

After creating a fountain, a smile flashes on the tv, so I think the next chapter will be television based and feature a tv villain (though it does look like flowey...). Again, i wonder if each chapter will be some form of escape for some people. or maybe it’ll be a different theme.

Also, I just want to add that I really don’t see Kris as malicious or doing thing for a sinister reason. Or maybe it’s still fucked up and selfish, but not the evil people imagine. If you do the snowgrave route, Noelle doesn’t even recognize it as Kris’ voice. The sinister voice in that route seems to be the Player rather, being cruel and making Noelle make these traumatizing choices. Which is why I wonder if Kris is the Knight, or if it’s a red herring. Not sure. 

4. ANYWAYS

There’s a lot to unpack. Too much to unpack, like there’s a whole thing I could say about Big Shot and Jevil and Gaster. The way maybe Kris also knows the world is just a game (maybe thats why they hate humans?? were just like go puppet go lol). But i have no idea so this was just focused on Kris mostly, and Maybe i’ll talk more but I finished the game a few hours ago and I just had to get these thoughts out even if others probably already figured it out or think its obvious. It’s just really cool! Again, most of this comes from this theory, cus i havent looked much at others (YET) since i just finished today. Anyways, FUN GAME! 

If anyone has useful screenshots or whatever please feel free to add lol

[thewhitefluffyhat]

Thoughts on Deltarune Chapter 2

I wasn't even intending to write a Deltarune post, but here we are!

Have some extended ramblings/theorizing about Undertale, Deltarune, and the role of the "Player" vs character agency.

[Warning: full spoilers for ALL routes in both Undertale and Deltarune!]

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Frisk’s Agency in Undertale

So I'm not sure how common this is nowadays (I haven't been following Undertale theories for a while), but I personally prefer the interpretation that there is no "Player" as an in-universe force in Undertale. I think it's a far more elegant story if the fourth wall isn't broken.

I'm also fond of the Narrator Chara and "Chara isn't pure evil until Murder Route teaches them to be" interpretations too.

And, of course, the third plank bridging those two is that I don't see Frisk as a just a pure, innocent cinnamon roll.

Because I like the story best when it's Frisk who chooses mercy or murder. It gives Frisk a much more complex character, if they are allowed to have the capacity for both immense kindness and immense cruelty. It even gives them an interesting implied character arc, if you take the natural progression path of True Pacifist > Murder Fun Times > Soulless Pacifist.

Just like Flowey, Frisk first tried to use their powers of Determination for good, but eventually they also grew curious and began to see the world as a game. And then they went too far and ultimately regretted it. Regretted it so much, in fact, that they were willing to sell their soul for just a chance to fix it.

After all, it's not you, the "Player," whose SOUL Chara wants. It's you, Frisk.

I also dislike the idea of an in-universe "Player" because that implies that "Frisk" is nothing but an empty shell - on ALL routes. All of those heartwarming moments in the True Pacifist route? All of the silly Flirt actions? Yeah, that's not Frisk, that's just as much the "Player" puppeting some poor kid's body as the events of the Bad Times.

Who knows what Frisk is truly like if their every action - good or ill - is controlled by some unseen, eldritch force? Now Frisk no longer has any characterization.

And given that said force overrides Frisk's agency, then isn't the "Player" evil no matter which route you take? It's become a story where they only "moral" choice is never to pick up the game at all. Hrm.

Anyway, but that's all Undertale. Which brings me to...

What the heck is going on in Deltarune?

Unlike Frisk=the Red SOUL in Undertale, we don't seem to control Kris=the Red SOUL in Deltarune. The game repeatedly underlines that the player only controls the Red SOUL, not Kris.

(Though, with stuff like the sound of the bathroom faucet only being audible when Kris's actual body is nearby - it seems like even when separated, the Red SOUL may still be perceiving through Kris's other senses besides sight...?)

With Spamton's dialogue and Kris's reaction after the non-Weird NEO fight, there's also a lot more emphasis in Deltarune of Kris (and the rest of the party!) being puppeted by some other force. And that's on top of all the stuff in the first chapter highlighting Kris/the Red SOUL's lack of agency.

Because of all those hints, Deltarune seems to be much more explicitly pointing toward that dark interpretation of Undertale - that the "Player"/Red SOUL is removing Kris's agency, regardless of route.

Indeed, I'm somewhat intrigued by the possibility that we/the Red SOUL might be forcing Kris to act nice just as much as we force them to act cruel. The way that Kris deliberately removes the Red SOUL in order to do some very suspicious actions might support that. As do some comments in Chapter 1, like characters in the post-Dark World walkaround noting how Kris is being less weird and more inquisitive than usual. Maybe Kris is the Knight and the Red SOUL is possessing them to undo their evil actions. Maybe the real Kris doesn't want to be friends with Susie and Ralsei at all!

But taking that interpretation to such an extreme also doesn't quite fit. Why does Kris slash the tires on Toriel's car? The only reason I can think of is that they want to keep Susie at their house. And why does Kris create the Dark World in their house? Is Kris creating the fountains because they want to have fun with friends? Especially right after the chapter emphasized how great the Dark World adventures were, that seems very likely.

There are also some smaller details too, of Kris interpreting the Red SOUL's input with their own spin (like saying things sarcastically), or of Kris chatting in a friendly way with Ralsei which the player/SOUL can't influence.

So, I'm pretty sure that even outside of the Red SOUL's control, Kris genuinely does like their friends.

Meanwhile, there were a lot of hints this chapter that Something Bad happened to Kris, Noelle, Dess, and Asriel when they went exploring in the forest by the graveyard. Most likely, they went into that ominous bunker south of the town. Is that incident related to Kris’s current strangeness?

And then, and THEN, there's the Snow Mercy route. That route seems to imply that the Red SOUL is both evil, and very much not Kris. Noelle says Kris isn't like themself, that their voice changes strangely, and she can still hear the creepy voice even when Kris is downed.

How to make sense of this all?

A Theory on Kris and the Red SOUL

One idea is that as scary and zombie-like as Kris looks without the SOUL, they're probably a nice, if lonely kid who desperately wants friends after their big brother went to college. (And possibly after something traumatic happened to them/their neighbor.) They're creating the Dark Worlds for the sake of fun and escapism.

But the Red SOUL puts an end to Kris's happy fantasies. Indeed, if the Red SOUL gives up, "the world is covered in darkness." So without the Red SOUL, would Kris simply keep creating fountains...? (What ARE the fountains, why can Kris and theoretically any Lightener create them?)

Maybe in the normal route, the Red SOUL is trying to gently help Kris move on and accept reality in some way. At the very least, I suspect Ralsei is working toward this goal.

But in that case... that's a pretty strange way for the Red SOUL to go about it, forcibly taking control of Kris to the point that the kid notices and seems to greatly resent it.

But what if the Red SOUL didn't have a choice about this arrangement either?

After all, the Red SOUL's customized vessel was discarded at the start of Chapter 1... and it was placed into Kris instead.

Here's a question: will Kris die if they're without a SOUL for too long?

Because there are an awful lot of moments in these games where characters break free of something they are bound to, but it doesn't end well: -Spamton collapses when his strings are cut. -The Darkeners can move freely outside their origin world for a while, but eventually turn to statues if they stay in another world. -Regardless of whether Berdly removes the Queen’s wires himself, he's exhausted and unable to fight any more after being under her control. -And when Kris takes the Red SOUL out of their body, their movements become slow and clumsy. Like it's a struggle for them to move at all.

Meanwhile in Undertale, post-Pacifist Asriel could maintain his form to say goodbye, but without SOUL(s), he inevitably returns to being Flowey.

So here's a theory: Kris died and/or lost their original soul. Perhaps due to some action/inaction on Noelle's part in the exploration incident. And as a last-ditch resort to keep them alive, the Red SOUL was somehow implanted in Kris.

(Also maybe Dess died/went missing at the same time...?)

And now, the Red SOUL the only thing keeping Kris around. 

But just like in Undertale, it seems like Deltarune SOULs have wills of their own.

Which means Kris's current state is similar to the Chara-Asriel fusion, or Omega Flowey, or even Frisk-Chara. Control of the body is shared. The difference is that instead of the SOUL we play representing the original owner/will of the body, this time the SOUL we're playing as is the intruder.

Essentially, this time around we are playing the role of the Chara-equivalent instead of the Frisk-equivalent!

(Though whether Kris themself is more of Chara or Frisk I’ll leave to other theorists...)

Anyway, while Kris likely wishes to be rid of the SOUL and dislikes this whole body sharing arrangement, they know they can't survive without it. And perhaps Kris being in a partially soulless state might explain why they do questionable stuff like creating Dark Worlds and slashing their mom's car tires in order to play with their friends. (Again, see also: Asriel/Flowey.)

But when the Red SOUL and Kris are in alignment, things go okay. The Red SOUL suggests commands, but Kris is willing to follow and seems to enjoy being with Susie and Ralsei.  

Let’s Talk About Snow Mercy

It's when the Red SOUL and Kris aren't in alignment... well. That seems to be what's happening in the Snow Mercy route. That kind of situation sure didn't go so hot with Frisk and Chara in Undertale, so I doubt this will end nicely for Kris and the Red SOUL either. At the very least, Kris seems to have been visibly upset after what happened with Noelle in this route.

(By the way, there are two other moments in Chapter 2 when Susie asks if Kris is okay - first after the normal Spamton NEO fight and subsequent discussion of what it meant and second after she and Kris approach the bunker.

Three different moments, but Kris appears to react similarly. Are all of these things related? The bunker, Kris being puppeted, and the events of the Snow Mercy route?)

Meanwhile, here’s a contrast. Undertale's Murder Route seemed to exist for the sake of curiosity and power - either the "Player" or Frisk's desires, whichever interpretation you subscribe to. And the changes to the world were all logical consequences of that - because of the Fallen Child's rampage, friendly NPCs disappear, major characters fight you more seriously, etc.

But the actions in Snow Mercy are... weirdly specific, weirdly unpredictable. It doesn't come across as a simple power trip. Instead, Snow Mercy is a bunch of really bizarre actions that feel even more mysterious to the player as they are to Noelle and Kris. I sure wouldn't have guessed that backtracking to the trash heap and freezing a bunch of enemies would lead to new items spontaneously appearing and then giving Noelle access to a scary new spell. It's like something straight out of a creepypasta!

The overall tone that comes across to me is that the Red SOUL seems to know what it's doing, even while the player is kept in the dark. And given Noelle's responses, it almost seems like the SOUL is trying to remind her of events/actions from her past, events which are obviously unknown to the player. All of which leads me to think that the Red SOUL has motives and goals of its own... so just like Undertale, this probably isn't a situation of the "Player" being a fourth wall-breaking force either.

The Red SOUL is its own character.

And I'm certainly curious to find out more about them!

[3wisellamas]

(Spoilers ahead! Read at your own risk if you haven't finished chapter 2 yet!)

Kris is the Knight, Gaster is the Knight, Ralsei is sus...

How about I throw an oddball one at you? What if Dess is the Knight?

In chapter 2, Queen implied that only a Lightner can actually create more dark fountains, and literally any Lightner can if they have enough determination and a blade of some kind. And she was VERY interested in Noelle specifically for the task, touting her strength and potential, without even considering the other three Lightners right in front of her.

Noelle was Dess' younger sister. And from context in this chapter, it looks a lot like whatever happened to her, happened when Noelle was very young -- before her first spelling bee, at least, since that's where she froze up (pun not intended) on the word 'December.' But, the most important part, we don't know WHAT exactly happened to Dess. One could assume she died, either in an accident or of whatever illness Rudy has, but as others have pointed out, there's no grave for her in the graveyard. And, like, yeah, she could've been buried elsewhere, but the simplest conclusion to draw from that is that she's still alive, but either went missing or ran away from home.

She was also stated a couple times to be close to Asriel, even going to the bunker with him, Kris, and Noelle at one point. (Remember, the latter two would still have been very young children at this point, and Dess and Asriel might have been teens, around the age Kris, Noelle, and Susie are now.) And from that one scene with MK and Snowy, we know that something very bad happened there once involving Kris...perhaps this was a reference to that same event?

If so...what if the four of them opened the bunker, and Dess went inside? Or maybe Kris even went in too, and Dess went after them to bring them back? It's pretty much a given that there's gonna end up being a Dark World inside, there's just too much building up to it at this point, so if either of them went in, they'd have a hell of a time getting back out! Kris came back, perhaps even traumatized into the weird kid they are today from the experience, but Dess ended up lost in the dark...a lost girl.

(Hm, wasn't that Noelle's song? I don't think it was really Noelle's at all. Sure, she got kidnapped a couple times, but at no point was she ever "lost"...)

So, here's where I'm going right off the deep end into conjecture. Dess disappeared, and since Asriel was so close to her, he begged his father, police chief Asgore, to find her, which he never did, and might have even tried a few things that ended up getting him fired. Like, maybe even going into the bunker himself, experiencing the Dark World within, and coming back and making all these crazy claims that no one else believed except for maybe his children? That'd definitely be reason to remove him as chief of police, and also affect his and Toriel's marriage.

So, after this, Asriel, a Lightner stricken with grief and Determined to find his friend...went to the dark supply closet at his school, armed with a knife (and maybe his little sibling's old red horn headband, if you want to incorporate the theory that that's where Ralsei came from), and stabbed the ground.

Bam, dark fountain, and Ralsei's kingdom. Unlile Dess, though, Asriel came back, not having found her either, and eventually moved on and grew up, but the fountain he made persisted -- after all, while any Lightner may be able to create a fountain, Ralsei implies very early in chapter 1 that only a human like Kris can actually SEAL them!

But, this is a theory about Dess, not Asriel. Just making one fountain might make you a knight, but not The Knight -- lookin' at Kris here. At some point, Dess, still lost somewhere in the Dark World, either gets desperate to find a way out and return home, enough to try and cover EVERYTHING in darkness despite the danger it poses, or...grows to like it there, a little too much, sorta like what Susie brought up at the end of chapter 2, making more fountains so the whole world can be as fun as it is in there. Whatever the reason, Dess realizes she can create more fountains, and, Determined, goes ahead and does so. And she spends a little time in each of the worlds she creates, manipulating events to serve her desires to reach the Light World again or cover it in darkness, and even telling a few specific people, who are lonely outcasts just like her, about her home outside of that world, and the things she's learned in her time away from it all. Things she may or may not have learned herself from a certain odd man hiding behind trees in secret rooms, and giving away eggs...

Or, another possibility, she's doing it all to try and lure the people she used to know to her by creating Dark Worlds where she thinks they'd be, like, say, her sister, and her sister's friend Kris, and possibly even Asriel -- remember, the first happened to be straight-up connected to the Dark World in the school supply closet. Man, it's 2021. We ALL know just how crazy being isolated from everyone you know for so long can make you, and Dess has been lost for YEARS. But, however lost we feel as we explore all the different Dark Worlds, don't forget, she's with us in the dark...

Also, one last kicker that I couldn't really stop thinking about. The Fun Gang/F$?! Squad/Whatever are supposed to banish the "Angel's Heaven", right? Well, didn't Dess and Noelle make an angel for their dad once, which is in his hospital room? And if everyone speculates she's dead after being missing for all these years, that makes her an Angel...and the Dark Worlds she creates are her Heaven.

Okay, one last LAST kicker, since I was replaying the start of chapter 1 as I was writing this and noticed it. The Knight jailed the other three kings of the classroom Dark World and put King Spade and his "strange son" into power, right? And might have even stayed around the castle for a little while to help steer the King's actions towards the Light World, and mess with Jevil?

Guys, Lancer knows the Knight. Personally. He would have said something by now if the Knight was in our party, or if we encountered them in either of the Dark Worlds we visited. So, the Knight is definitely NOT someone we've seen yet. Furthermore...remember when we first met the kid, and his catchphrase was "Ho ho ho!" And how Susie told him he sounded like a baby Santa Claus? Wouldn't it be a nice little coincidence if he picked that up from someone literally named December, whose entire family is Christmas-themed...

[pyreo]

deltarune megapost

I wanted to make a Deltarune post about the lore and the things that aren’t  obvious. And once I do that I wanna focus on why Mettaton is incredibly important to this setting

And also why he poses a problem

Why did Toriel and Asgore get divorced?

Without the setting of Undertale, Asgore and Toriel’s marriage still broke up after they had Asriel. There needs to be a reason though. In UT it was Asgore’s ‘worst of both worlds’ decision regarding killing anybody that fell from the human world, including children. We saw how close they were before this happened. Only something deep and serious caused that rift. In Deltarune, what on earth did Asgore do?

What happened to Dess?

Mentioned a handful of times by Noelle, Dess was her older sister and is mentioned In Undertale.... in that Xbox exclusing casino thing. The way Noelle talks about her, the conspicuous way Noelle gets locked out of her big house - it implies Dess is gone or deceased. Berdly recalls a spelling bee when he and Noelle were younger where she, despite being smarter than him, misspelled ‘December’, allowing him to win.

In the two-player spelling puzzle, it also spells out ‘December’ as Noelle recalls the past and her silhouette regresses to a child while she does so. Being distracted by her sister’s disappearance, rather than pure shyness, could account for her misspelling her name on stage, and it clearly left a big psychological mark for her to have this visual regression in the Dark World.

However, there’s a graveyard in Hometown with no Dess. I heard another theory that she has been missing for years, because where each character’s personal room is made by Queen to reflect their tastes via their search results, Noelle has a calendar where every day is December 25th. This could imply that Noelle continually searches the internet for ‘December Holiday’, her sister’s name, to see if there are clues to her disappearance, but of course the only result you would get is the date of Christmas.

Who is the Knight?

It’s now implied to be Kris, who has been forcibly removing the player’s influence to act on their own. By all accounts the Knight is the game’s main antagonist. Spade King and Queen both mention the Knight as someone who influenced their position - they brought Spade King to absolute power, and showed Queen that creation of new worlds was possible.

We’re led to believe that Kris was doing this, because they’ve been acting outside of the player’s control. Eating the entire pie between chapter 1 and 2 might have been a red herring to cover that they also went to the library and used that knife to slash open a dark fountain there.

However. This has issues. How would they even manage to shuffle slowly all the way to the library and get in the computer lab? The Knight is also the one creating the hidden bosses. They talked to Jevil until he realised he was in a game and he lost his mind; they ruined Spamton’s life by elevating him to success and then crushing him. Whatever the Knight is doing seems to be deliberately planned with key players in mind.

Kris opening the fountain at home at the end of ch.2 can be explained in that you just figured out in Cyber World that anyone determined enough can do this, and so, Kris decided to. So a better question might even be...

What does Kris want?

We have no idea. They are capable of removing the SOUL, ‘us’, temporarily, and putting things in motion we cannot influence. But they also keep putting us back in control afterward. This is hinted at right when ch.2 starts, where if you inspect the cage in Kris’s bedroom they threw us into, the description says it’s inescapable. Meaning Kris came back and took us out, willingly.

They allow us to pilot them through the game. Why? Because they cannot live without the SOUL for long for some reason? Because they’re bad at bullet hell? Why did they slash Toriel’s tyres before opening the fountain, making sure nobody could drive away?? Why did they specifically open the door?

You can find out details about Kris through the creepy way you interact with the townsfolk, who think you are Kris. They play the piano at the hospital waiting room - better than you. They used to go to church just to get the special church juice. It’s all normal, relatable things, not like someone who’s trying to plunge the world into darkness. Judging by their search history portrayed in their Queen’s castle room, they really want to see their brother again. However the castle has a room based on Asriel’s search history too, and Kris (not you) closes their eyes and won’t look at it.

What is Ralsei?

His name is an anagram of Asriel. Is he an extension of Asriel? The slightly flirtier dialogue in ch.2 would point to no. Is he an extension of Kris themselves, given the link between Kris’s childhood habit of wearing a headband with red horns on it, to pretend to be a monster like their family?

Ralsei knows exactly where the Dark World in the school is located, and unlike regular Darkners, knows the world is folded up inside the ‘real world’. There’s a certain whiplash to Ralsei telling you to hop out of his reality into yours and go down the hallway to retrieve all the board game items.

How does he jump from one Dark World to another, without assistance? How does he not get petrified like Lancer and Rouxls? Is this a power level thing because he’s a prince or something else? We definitely do not know enough about Ralsei.

He also says this incredibly suspicious thing after you spare Spamton NEO. Susie was also curious but accepts that maybe it ‘didn’t mean anything’, which is a sure tell that these optional bosses do mean something.

Someone is orchestrating what’s happening, opening fountains, manipulating the rulers, and influencing NPCs to become the optional bosses. Why? I suspect Ralsei for both knowing too much, and pretending something doesn’t matter when it clearly does. Until Asriel actually comes home from college I’m going to suspect he’s involved in this too.

How much does Seam know?

Seam on the other hand knows a lot about what’s going on but is openly withholding information while helping you. He’s nihilistic. He says things like:

One day soon... You too, will begin to realize the futility of your actions. Ha ha ha... At that time, feel free to come back here. I'll make you tea... And we can toast... to the end of the world!

Either this ‘end of the world’ is a reference to The Roaring, where opening too many dark fountains dooms the Dark World and the real one... or, I can’t get out of my head the idea that Deltarune takes place in a fake, or weird reconstruction of Undertale where things don’t match up, and eventually it will have to disappear. After all, powers of determination and creating and manipulating universes are Undertale’s basic bread and butter. How can we look at an Alternate Universe containing the characters we already know and not suspect that? Seam also uses Gaster’s key words, ‘darker, yet darker’, seemingly to clue us in that he’s not off track here.

Why haven’t we seen Papyrus?

This is a bright neon flashing ‘something’s not right’ sign. It’s not like Papyrus’s voice actor was too busy or anything. His absence is noticable and for a reason. Nice of Sans to promise we could meet him despite being aware we’re piloting a child’s body around, though, even if he didn’t follow through.

What locations in town could be used for dark fountains in the next 4 chapters?

If the sequence continues, we have chapter 1 in the school games room, chapter 2 in a computer lab, and chapter 3 in front of Kris’s television, where the aesthetic of each setting influences the world, characters, and enemies in the Dark World created there. Future possibilities include the church, the hospital, sans’s grocery store, Noelle’s house, and the closed bunker.

What the hell’s in the closed bunker

This one’s too obvious, honestly. I think it’ll open for no reason in chapter 7 and a little white dog will bounce out and steal one of your key items and nothing else happens.

Why does Asgore have these

Unlike the bunker feeling like a joke teaser, I gotta believe this is foreshadowing something weird. For example, what does opening a dark fountain in here with the seven flowers do? Does it just take you into Undertale?

Each chapter will have a hidden boss with a ‘soul mode’ from Undertale

Chapter 1 let you stay red, but I think each subsequent chapter is going to change your soul mode to one of the seven colours and design the encounter around that. Purple, yellow, green and blue were used in Undertale, leaving the light blue and orange modes yet to be revealed.

How does Spamton emulate Mettaton Neo’s name, body, and incorporate his battle theme, and the ‘Dummy!’ theme, with no actual connection between them ingame?

This is a really fun one that’s explained over in this post here. Swatch is the Dark World creation from the paint program on the library computers, so he’s able to explain that a Lightner made the robot body decaying in the castle basement that way.

Mettaton went to the library and drew his ideal form, Mettaton NEO, in MS Paint, and the Dark World formed that into a puppet body which Spamton was able to hijack temporarily. So by doing that Spamton was able to channel Mettaton’s appearance, attacks, music, and SOUL mode for the fight.

This might mean that the future hidden bosses, each with their own SOUL mode, might be based on the associated character for that mode (Muffet, Undyne, and Sans or Papyrus), and the boss will take on some aspect of them from their world to leech their fight mechanics.

The Problem With Mettaton

We don’t exactly know what Deltarune is about. It’s an alternate universe where the characters from Undertale already live on the surface, have completely normal lives, but diverge from the storyline of Undertale and, crucially, have not lived through the changes Frisk brought to their lives.

Remember how Undertale had a dozen different ending routes depending on who you befriended? The constant reinforcement in Undertale was that your choices mattered. Through Frisk, you chose to bring Alphys closure about her mistakes, you chose to befriend papyrus instead of attacking him, you chose to help Alphys and Undyne realise their feelings for each other and it’s only doing that that leads to the golden ending and escape to the surface.

Deltarune is the opposite, your choices do not matter. The only thing you can do to force the route of the game to change is to force Noelle into a No Mercy run, which is indirect, and also, a total desperation to mess with an otherwise set course. This version of the characters have not been helped by Frisk - Undyne and Alphys are not together, Papyrus has no friends, Asgore cannot get over himself, and they’re clearly the worse for it, but potentially, you COULD still do these things. In fact it’s hinted that you already are.

But there’s Mettaton.

He’s still a ghost and does not leave his house. In Frisk’s world, Gaster deleted himself, promoting Alphys to royal scientist by bluffing with Mettaton, and she then build him his ideal body. In Kris’s world... Alphys is a school teacher. There’s no barrier to break, no reason to experiment on souls, no Flowey mistake, and no body for Mettaton.

It was sad in Ch.1, but now with the Spamton NEO fight in ch.2, it’s unmissable. Mettaton wants that body and he cannot get it. Alphys in this universe is not going to leave her teaching job and suddenly be able to build a robot. Mettaton is just... screwed out of his happy ending and cannot get it.

So what resolution could this have? If it wasn’t for Mettaton I might believe in the vaildity of Deltarune and Hometown. But. How can you doom this character? If Undertale was the only way Mettaton could be befriended, then Undertale is Primary Universe A and Seam is right - the world of Deltarune is doomed as some kind of aberration. It all relies on how this gets explained in the future, but the core mystery of Deltarune is how exactly this universe intersects with Undertale and whether one is an offshoot of the other. How the Dark World links into that is another complication. But even as we get more fun characters and neat stuff in the Dark Worlds, let’s not forget we have absolutely no idea why Undertale’s characters are living here with no mention of underground or why there are no other humans beside Kris.

[desultory-novice]

Thoughts on the idea that "Meta Knight is an older member of Kirbies Species" (a theory I haven't really seen since Star Allies and the Void lore drop). I still think Meta Knight dedicating himself to a single ability so much he becomes one of the strongest warriors of Dreamland is a really cool idea, and him trying to use his Copy Abilities (that he hasn't needed for Years) and struggling, probably still in the Early Kirby Game Era of "only one or two moves per ability" as opposed to Kirbies advanced moves is a funny AND cool idea. Also imagine him pulling out an ability as an ultimate last resort, fighting someone to the bitter end as he triggers Crash or something. (With how the Ultra Sword has a single appearance we treat as Kirbies Ultra Sword and yet it can also become Galaxia, this could be read as Meta Knight being a previous weirder of the Ultra Ability. That, or Kirby is just imagining cool weapons he's seen and the Ultra Sword matches it)

(Also kinda reflects their characters now that I write this. Meta Knight is a master os a single thing, and when it works (Forgotten Land) he does it well (defending Waddle Dee Town) whilst when it fails (Robobot as an example) he ends up losing bad. But Kirby is changing, being the one to win and survive because he can change (hence his abilities). Also this shows how BanDee became so relevant, because he decided to change to match everyone else)

I've seen the theory occasionally but yeah, not as much lately. Or rather, it might be that it's often taken as a given in the MetaDad sphere without a lot of exploration about what that would mean for him biologically. (I say as if I know all the fan work out there! ^^; Props to all the people who are writing interesting explorations of Meta Knight!)

But yes, I do wish we got to see Meta Knight use at least one or two different abilities, as was the original plan for Adventure! He would definitely be a good fit for the weapon based ones like Spear. (Whip could be fun too, since Meta likes his silly hats!)

And I like the idea you present that his abilities would be somewhat strained because he's rusty/not as good at switching on the fly like he used to. Or just that being able to switch effectively was never his sphere! (You mention Crash and I can definitely imagine a situation where he doesn't shake it off/is undamaged by using it like Kirby is. I guess that really WOULD make it a last resort, huh?)

!! The idea of Kirby visualizing the coolest weapons he knows of and the Ultra Sword responding is a really brilliant theory, I hope you know!! Although it would be cool to get some lore about in-game Galaxia as well, since all there is now is the not-really-canon anime. (Actually, Dess wants more lore about the various swords in general. Dark Matter Blade, the Rainbow Sword, the Master Sword, DMK's Blade, the Mistilteinn Sword, the Giant Tuna Fish...)

Bandanna Waddle Dee as idolizing Kirby to the point that he takes after Kirby's biggest strength, being able to change and grow, is another excellent observation! Thanks, Anon! This was a very inspirational read!

[desultory-novice]

Multi-colored Kirby asks!

Do you have any head canons for the different color Kirbys?

Do you think the four Kirbys from the Amazing Mirror ever refused together? They were never shown too

Do you think Yellow Kirby and Keeby are the same person?

Do you think the Kirbys from Kirby Fighters, Dream Buffet, etc. are all Kirby(s) or do you think they are just the same species of Kirby?

Fun Fact: Green Kirby from Super Smash Bros. is canonically names Kusamochi!

Time to recover some of those really old, really good asks that I let slip under the radar for wayyy too long...!

Multi-colored Kirbys! Hooray!

I do enjoy the different shades of Kirby! Anecdote but when I got big into fabric arts, I bought a shoe-rack thingy you could stick on a door to organize my steadily growing collection of yarns by color! I loved it so much I... eventually let the yarn go unused because I was so happy with my pretty room decoration I wanted to look at it, not use it. (Poor Dess's many neglected hobbies...)

AHEM! What this mostly makes me think back to is, oh, I wonder if I can find it... It was a quote by Sakurai (?) answering "Why does Kirby split into 3 in Kirby's Dream Land to dance?" And Sakurai's answer, to everyone's amazement, was not something that explained Kirby's powers or Kirby as a species. He said it was "...because it's fun."

Kirby seems to be able to split themselves because "it's more fun that way!" Amazing! And this got me thinking... the DL1 Kirbys were in black-and-white but...would they still be that way now? Maybe THAT was the true origin/original appearance of the multi-colored Kirbys - we just couldn't see it at the time!

I've always held that Keeby was another Kirby that Kirby made/summoned up (like the dancing Kirbys) because golf (...or Kirby's version of golf - ...because Dream Course is we~ird) would be more fun with two players! So bam! Instant friend Keeby!

As for Amazing Mirror... I have a certain very serious headcanons about Dark Meta Knight making four Kirbys of equal strength because...DMK was NOT a loyal agent of Dark Mind! (Gasp!) He was a mole trying to sabotage his "master" by luring Kirby in there and quadrupling his strength, all under the guise of fulfilling Mind's goals.

(Then he got kinda into it because, well, he's a blood knight. But it makes his shattering all the more tragic if he did it knowing that he had "trained" these four Kirbys enough to stand a chance against Dark Mind... COUGH I have lots of Dark Meta Knight feels okay?!? Such a slept on character! Look at this good "bad orb!")

AHEM! (Pt2...)

As to what happens to the Kirbys, they could have quietly fused back together off-screen? (Or maybe Meta Knight used some ability of HIS to reunite them? Light splits, Darkness reunites??) or maybe before reaching home, they took off on their individual warp stars and each headed off to different planets/dimenions?

Maybe they're still around in Dream Land though?! Because you can play as "them"(ish) in Return to Dream Land! Or maybe those Kirbys are simply Kirby remembering his experiences with Dark Meta Knight and realizing, "Why split myself into 3 for a dance or 2 for golf when I can split myself into 4 again and go on another adventure!"

But your question about the spinoff Kirbys has me wondering, less about Fighters or Dream Buffet, but about Clash - now that Kirby Clash is canon!! (Or at least "canon-in-law" thanks to the existence of Magolor's Epilogue. Good news for Galacta Knight...!)

Because Team Kirby, right? You only ever control the main, pink Kirby in town, buying supplies, weapons, armor and also paying the DLC gods tribute to keep the Master Tree Crown from eating Magolor's Soul again and allowing him go home someday...

Is "Team Kirby" just one Kirby that, upon finding a baddie they want to beat, splits into four and goes for it, then comes back home because feeding four hungry Kirbys would put Kirby next on the wanted board?! Or are the four actually a real adventuring party?!

I mean, gosh, if you want to go really out there, maybe the Amazing Mirror Kirbys somehow found their way to the Clash dimension and formed Team Kirby WITH that dimension's unique Kirby!

Although there's no red Kirby in Clash so it couldn't be... Unless (!!!) the Kirbys can also switch their colors as they please?! Maybe Red Kirby got ahold of a spray can from Squeak Squad and decided to become Blue Kirby?! At this point, why not?!

In fact, big question... Can a Kirby who has been summoned by Kirby ("because it's fun") summon their OWN Kirbys?! 

Sad Poyo's Parade?!? 

(Only my sister will get that joke, probably... XD)

But THAT could be what the 1-up Kirbys you collect stand for. It's like Mario with the Double Cherries, maybe? When Kirby gets beat, they go down for a nap and spawn another Kirby to take over the fight. But...what happens to the Kirbys who all gave up...?

...Some questions were not meant to be answered.

To summarize, my thoughts on the different colored Kirbys are that they should be treated with as much levity as Kirby's creator treats them! If you want to assign personality traits and backstories to them, that sounds like fun! But, I wouldn't want anyone to worry too much about what is and isn't canonical about them, as Kirby themself probably wouldn't want anyone to trouble themselves over something as light-hearted as, oh, duplicating themselves!

...

...

...The real disturbing question about Dream Buffet is ARE THOSE THE REAL RIBBON, GOOEY, CHUCHU, and ELFILIN ON KIRBY'S HEAD AND HOW DO THEY FEEL ABOUT BEING SMOOSHED INTO CAKE ALL THE TIME?! (Gooey probably loves it, tbh.)

[desultory-novice]

Continuing the fine trend of talking to myself... 1/2

Dess Plays The Ask Game With Myself!

003 Marx

How I Feel About This Character: 

...Very Soft.  I do like Marx as a troll and his delightful role as an unhinged villain, but maybe it's all the Pixiv fanart, because I also legit see a lot of deeeeeply concealed melancholy in him. Whether it's the potential for hand-envy in a world full of hugs and snuggles, or him being a tsundere little gremlin unable to say "Hey do you want to be friends already or what?!" so he kicks people in their little orb shins and runs away instead, or his feeling like a complete outsider in the too peaceful kingdom of Dream Land, even though he deeply, desperately loves the place enough to -literally- wish on a star to make it his own...as a whole, it’s just very endearing to me.

Any/All the People I Ship Romantically With This Character: 

...Romantically? Magolor. I already ranted about this but Magolor is one of the very small group of people I could ever see Marx opening up to. And Magolor is only one he’d be like, “Omg, you like <conquest/black holes/tricking people> too?! I love you!”

My Favorite Non-Romantic Relationships For This Character: 

Kirby-Kirby-Kirby....Also Gryll, who I headcanon as Marx’s adoptive sibling. Speaking of headcanon, I also HC Drawcia as Marx’s magic teacher, so she and her sisters are his extended family too, at least in my personal Kirby-verse.

My Unpopular Opinion About This Character: 

I don't know if it's unpopular but I definitely don’t like "Marx is just a psychopath" as a take. Also, are there people out there who really think his diabolical plan caused that much damage? Because I don’t think it did. I mean, Kirby stopped it, so obviously (and Marx would have been an AWFUL god if he had succeeded, though I also see him growing bored of it eventually and just giving up on his domination of Popstar, had he won) but if you’re going to say that him messing with the sun and moon caused, like, horrific tidal problems that displaced hundreds of Cappys and Dees...you know the moon BLEW UP in NiDL right? His impact on Dream Land in Milky Way Wishes was canonically so low that King Dedede doesn’t even know who he is.

Lastly, I think this one is only unpopular by virtue of me being the first/only one (?) to propose the idea, but I am completely mentally stuck on the idea of Nightmare and Marx being deeply connected/Nightmare being responsible for Marx’s creation.

One Thing I Wish Would Happen / Had Happened With This Character In Canon: 

...Just confirm that Marx canonically survived the events of Milky Way Wishes already, damn you! If he is the person Magolor is talking about, that conversation would almost have to have happened post-Super Star. How else would the semi-planet-locked Magolor know Marx and Kirby fought unless Marx brought him that news himself?! Bring Marx back into the larger universe of Kirby characters again. He seems popular enough in merch lines.

Favorite Friendship For This Character: 

Marx and Magolor teaming up to slowly drive poor, gentle Taranza insane. Also the crack friendship I made up consisting of Marx, Adeleine, Ribbon, and Dark Meta Knight. Two peace-makers and two uncontrollables that are really just tsunderes beneath the propensity for aggression. It’s a fun matchup.

My Crossover Ship/FREE SPACE: 

Marx actually scared the heck out of me when I first saw him and I stopped playing Kirby for a little bit because I didn't know it was "...a scary game." (My sweet summer child years...) Only later would I come back around and realize he checked all my boxes for a favorite character. Oops!

Oh, and because this is the only place I'm going to get to talk about it, I want to rave about how amazingly beautiful スーパー膝太郎’s Marx AMV “HEXL” is?! 

If you’re a Marx fan, and you haven’t seen it, look it up on Youtube, please! You really need to see it! It’s in Japanese but I’m about to explain the “story” so...

Okay, it’s about Marx playing Super Star on NSO and he gets to the Heart of Nova pause screen and it says (this is 100% true, but only in the JP version) "...Hurry up and beat that clown so you can eat up and catch some zzzs!" That's not exactly literal, but it is that level of “lulz” casual about Marx.

(Note: Using screenshots like this feels like reposting the art, which スーパー膝太郎 expressly forbids, but it’s tricky to talk about this part without at least one screenshot, so everyone be good, okay...?)

Marx sees that description and is like "...wtf...?" He’s shocked that he’s barely even a road bump to Kirby. Less important than food and naps. So he reaches the boss fight and decides to -not- press any buttons so the in-game Marx will win and he can watch Kirby get beaten up. And it feels good! ...at first. Because Marx also wants friends. Marx wants to be understood for who he is.

He keeps playing the game/envisioning himself clashing with Kirby and winning, but Marx realizes at the end, more than anything, he just wants to be seen - even if that means embracing his role as the "villain" defeated by Kirby's "hero."

So at last, he presses continue, resolves to start playing the game for real as “Kirby” and defeats "himself" in-game and just...

...all the sudden it cuts to an alternate version of their real battle and this time, Kirby stops right before finishing Marx off and he holds him in his hands and just  -looks- at him and smiles understandingly, and a conflicted Marx smiles too at last, but he's crying and ahhhhhhhhhhh...

And at the end, when Marx sees Kirby again in Star Allies, he really does seem at peace with his role as both villain...and friend. It is such a great Marx take!