#and savathun. for the love of god please rez her so i can ask her questions

[thefirstknife]

Heya! I saw that you are a Destiny lore expert, so I wanted to ask you something: do you think it's possible that Savathûn used Rasputin to shoot the Traveler?

We know that Savathûn somehow saved the Traveler during the Collapse and, as far as I know, nobody told us how yet, but I think it would explain a couple of things like the frozen Hive on Mars and why the Witness needed to gather information about the Collapse specifically from Mars

Now, I realize this sounds like a bit of a stretch and I'm pretty sure I'm missing some lore here (tbh, I still don't know if Rasputin shooting the Traveler is considered canon or not), but I wanted to ask if you think this theory can somehow stand or not

Hey! Thanks for asking :) It's a huge point of interest for me as it's a very unclear and contentious topic! But it's also very important for the lore going forward, with all the recent focus on new information about what happened during the Collapse.

First, to clear things, Rasputin shooting is not considered canon. As a matter of fact, most people consider it a crackpot theory that has been disproven many years ago. For context, this was a very popular theory that got used and abused to prove either that the Traveler is evil (because it wanted to leave) or that Rasputin is evil (because he shot) or that both of them are evil. The theory was incredibly annoying, especially when we didn't have enough information so it ended up being labelled as crackpot.

However, I disagree. The theory was "disproven" before Y3 od Destiny (Shadowkeep release). Shadowkeep, its associated seasons and everything released since has been filled with information that seems to be indicating otherwise. Not to mention that a lot of the new stuff is reframing our understanding of the Collapse and we are probably going to be getting a lot more information about it soon. My post discussing newer information about the possibility that Rasputin shot is here. I wrote it before Witch Queen so there's nothing about the newest info of Savathun being there, but it still mentions many details that seem to indicate that Rasputin may have shot after all.

Now we know that Savathun was involved. We don't know the full details because she didn't want to share them. The best info about her involvement with the Collapse comes from her worm, in Of Queens and Worms quest. This is all we know:

Savathûn’s Worm: Always violent. Fine. Have information. But only this. No more. Ever. Truth you seek. Humanity’s Collapse. Even the Witness deceived. The Witch Queen did its bidding. Earned its trust. Rode alongside to apocalypse. Watched many burn. But the Witness turned a violent gaze to Traveler. Witch Queen projected lies. Clever deceptions wrapped in shadow. Tides turned. Witness sent away, back amongst the stars. Ghost: Are you saying Savathûn deceived the Witness? Is she the reason humanity survived? Savathûn’s Worm: Not the reason. A reason. Not for humanity, but for Traveler. My promise, delivered. Will say no more. Ever.

Savathun deceived the Witness, projected lies and deceptions. This helped turn the tides and the Witness was "sent away." Ghost asks for clarification and the worm says that Savathun's trickery was not THE reason, but one of the reasons why we survived. So Savathun was involved, but she wasn't the only reason we survived. Her trickery helped, but there were other factors like Traveler's own actions and, possibly, Rasputin.

We have no clue what was the nature of this deception Savathun pulled on the Witness. Some theories:

Savathun projected a lie about the Traveler being defeated already which made the Witness leave (this would make most sense given that the Pyramid fleet remained completely dormant outside of the galaxy until the Traveler woke up at the end of the Red War. The Fleet must've thought the Traveler is dead and therefore had no reason to come back until it became clear that the Traveler is still alive).

Savathun tricked the Witness into leaving before the job was done by pretending she will do it herself. This may have involved Nezarec because we now know that he was the disciple assigned to our system and that he led the first wave of attacks on Earth, but he is also known as a "traitor" (to the Witness?) and as someone who commited a sin (to the Witness?). Savathun may have tricked both the Witness and Nezarec into believing that she will finish the job, but then betrayed them and also left Nezarec hanging which led to his death.

There's other theories and possibilities too. It's impossible to tell right now. Both Savathun and her worm were vague, and every other character that can tell us more is indisposed (Rasputin, Nezarec), our enemy (Nezarec, Witness) or we aren't aware of them yet (Neomuna).

However, Rasputin is known to have fought in the Collapse. He was very active and fought relentlessly against the Pyramid Fleet, though none of his attacks worked. He had a protocol ready for the event of the Traveler leaving: shoot it so it would be forced to react. That was the final desperate plan in case everything else failed (which it did).

Is Savathun aware of Rasputin? Was she aware of him back then? Could she have used him? I don't think she would've personally risked damaging the Traveler, since her only goal was to keep it alive, no matter the cost. So Savathun using Rasputin to shoot wouldn't fit her line of work, at least in my opinion. We don't really know and she may have been desperate enough to use Rasputin or just trick him into thinking he's working with an ally.

As you said, the Hive were in our system already around that time. They were on the Moon because the K1 research team scientists mention Hive tunnels and those huge bones in the Hellmouth. Nokris and Xol were also already active at the time of the late Golden Age and the Collapse. The lore on this is from last year's Festival of the Lost (a little bit goofy because it's lore of a Techeun telling Glint stuff during his investigation about "the headless ones"):

"Bray used the tools of the Vex, while Hive blasphemers practiced the magical art of necromancy." Her tone darkened. "Both succeeded, after a fashion."

"The early Hive experiments were done in secret, under the guidance of a powerful Wizard, whose name we'll not mention here."

"Nokris," Glint offered.

However, Nokris and Xol ended up being frozen on Mars until the end of the Red War, when the Traveler's awakening unfroze them. For the record, Nokris and Xol and their Hive were frozen on Mars due to Rasputin. He couldn't fight them so he used a protocol called "Siberian Entropy" to freeze that area of Mars, including his own bunkers and facilities:

"Rasputin activated protocol Siberian Entropy for a long term plan. Did I happen to find him on my own?"

So Rasputin definitely had altercations with the Hive, but it's unclear if he ever interacted with Savathun, knowingly or unknowningly.

Is it possible that Savathun's plan to save the Traveler involved Rasputin? Seems to be. Is it likely she used him? I don't think so, mostly because that's not her way of doing things (she doesn't brute force things; shooting seems more like a Rasputin-only action) and her plan seemed to have been mostly around tricking the Witness. However, if Rasputin did shoot, Savathun could've used the Traveler being damaged to convince the Witness that the Traveler been dealt with.

In my analysis of the new stuff in regards to whether or not Rasputin shot, I mentioned that we know the Traveler was being somehow affected by Darkness during the Collapse. I made a suggestion that the Traveler was being pulled by Darkness' gravity powers, since the Traveler does mention being "pulled":

You want to run, but you are pulled in all directions by opposite and equal forces that hold you perfectly still.

I also made a suggestion that perhaps the Darkness began overtaking the Traveler and the Traveler positioned itself in a way for Rasputin to shoot the part of it that was being corrupted; this would explain why there's a huge chunk of the Traveler missing and why it was blown away by some incredibly powerful force that propelled it possibly thousands of miles away (the Shard of the Traveler in EDZ: the only thing we know about the Shard is that it happened during the Collapse). Darkness doesn't use conventional weapons, neither does the Traveler and neither does Savathun. The only one shooting nukes around the planet was Rasputin.

This could also now be explained with Savathun. Maybe it wasn't the Darkness corrupting the Traveler, maybe it was Savathun's webweaver wizards holding it in place, just like during WQ. Maybe she did that to take the Traveler away and Rasputin shot it because he didn't understand what was happening. Or Savathun did it on purpose to make him shoot so that the Traveler would be forced into a state of dormancy to trick the Witness.

It's unclear right now. I believe we'll get a full explanation once Rasputin returns and we will be able to put this debate to rest once and for all. I think there's reasonable evidence that he did shoot, but all of that evidence can be explained in other ways as well. We just need to find out what really happened. No matter what Rasputin tells us, it should be huge for our understanding of the Collapse, Savathun's involvement, Nezarec and the Lunar Pyramid and the Witness. Rasputin was there and he knows.

And if for some reason he doesn't remember (he was damaged pretty badly in Arrivals), we're still left with Neomuna in Lightfall. Neomuna should be aware of what was going on during the Collapse since they remained hidden and were able to observe from afar. And on the topic of Rasputin, he was the one that helped them stay hidden and even deleted their location from his own database in order to ensure their safety. He's intrinsically linked with Neomuna, the Collapse and our survival.

Ever since Shadowkeep, we've been getting crumbs of new information and lore on the Collapse and what really happened. This has been increasing ever since then and WQ was huge with the reveal that Savathun was there and helped save the Traveler and, by proxy, humanity. But this story isn't over and we still need a lot more information to fully understand what happened. Rasputin waking up has to be a huge source of this information, and so does Neomuna. Probably Savathun as well when she is rezed again, and it's likely that when we assemble all relics of Nezarec, he might drop us some hint or two. And of course, I feel like the Witness will have things to say as well.

I fully believe next season will feature Rasputin up and operational in his new Exo body so he can give us information on his previous fights against the Black Fleet, the Collapse and information on Neomuna. Hopefully he will be able to shed more light on what happened, his perception of the Collapse and possibly, if he was able to identify Savathun's interference, more about what exactly she chose to do. I believe it's possible that Savathun used everything at her disposal to trick the Witness, even if that meant counting on Rasputin to follow his protocols.