#and then for C!Wilbur just the implications of him viewing C!Tommy not following him into death after L’Manburgs second explosion as C!Tommy

[dracoria-azucar]

The more we explore C!Wilbur and C!Dream’s relationships with C!Tommy the more upsetting the:

“Who am I without you?” - “Yourself.” 

interaction gets. 

Like. We talk about the objectification/dehumanization C!Techno faces, being treated as a glorified secret weapon by his allies rather than a friend, more often than not.

But we really gotta start talking about how C!Wilbur views this kid as some unhealthy extension of himself, bordering heavily on treating him like his lap dog? And the fact that C!Dream has out right stated that he considers the boy to be a personification of conflict and passion that he wants to keep locked away all to himself??

The treatment Techno gets is definitely upsetting but there are certain moments where Tommy is objectified in ways that are viscerally disgusting. Especially considering. That he is a teenager. And being treated that way by people he legitimately trusted and idolized has very explicitly affected the way he views relationships as well as his own sense of self worth.

[smp-live]

I have very very conflicting feelings about the topic of c!Crimeboys and abuse but it basically boils down to it doesn't feel right even though, from c!Tommy's pov, all of the pieces are there. Disregarding his mental health situation and only looking at it from how it affected c!Tommy, c!Wilbur was in a position of power over him and did occasionally take advantage of it ("If you want to be President, you're gonna have to get on my good side"), and even as he only told him what he believed it did have lasting harm on c!Tommy.

It's like... mostly one-sided toxicity with a power dynamic, which by definition should be abusive, but it just sits wrong with me. Maybe because c!Tommy barely respected c!Wilbur's authority at that point, and so while there was a power dynamic, it wasn't played into. idk. I'm not here to pick that apart because I do think that different people are using different definitions of abuse; some extreme, some intent-based, some victim-focused, and that is what complicates this discussion a whole bunch.

I do know that the thing that makes me most uncomfortable about it is the implication that a c!Crimeboys reconciliation would have? If they're pushing for a semi-healthy relationship at the end, that is. Already, we have c!Tommy talking about how he only felt safe following c!Wilbur, expressing how he wants to return to that, and it's just... uncomfortable, when you think about it in the context of a kid and someone who was abusive to him. And I know he's talking about L'Manburg Wilbur, who didn't hurt him, but they're the same person. And they do need to learn to stand on their own to have any semblance of a healthy relationship, but there is a very different vibe that comes across with learning to stand on their own but still together if you talk of abuse as opposed to an unhealthy dynamic imo.

c!Wilbur is still accountable for his actions from back then, and while c!Tommy is forgiving and would accept him back, I don't see c!Wilbur reaching that point where it would be healthy and acceptable for them to do so within the timeframe of the story in this case. While he is trying to get better and does feel guilty over Pogtopia, he was still repeating a few behaviours that betray similar emotions to what made Pogtopia bad, (the sand, "you're all I have" - which he believes, but if we're using a victim-focused lens then it did have a negative impact on c!Tommy, etc.) And on top of that, you'd need c!Tommy to unlearn viewing him as that safe leader, coming to view him more critically, before reconciling and softening up towards him, but in a different way. It would be a lot of character growth for both of them, and I simply don't think that they can do that within the timeframe of the story. I just think that the story needs c!Crimeboys reconciliation for it to resolve satisfactorily, and I don't think that that can happen with any abusive reading of their Pogtopia relationship.

[soren1830]

"If C!Kirstin is good, why is Limbo terrible?"

This is a question I have seen floating around, most recently by @nachosforfree X (love the short story that got attached)

This question and following headcannons balance on two things. The fandom's view of Kirstin as a/the Death Goddess (If cannon, please send me a link!!!) and what we have seen regarding Limbo/the afterlife.

Which is terrible. All my homies hate Limbo.

and if Limbo is terrible, they imply that something went wrong(which is fun angst ngl) regarding Kirsten and her control over it.

However, there is a fundamental misunderstanding here.

Death =/= Afterlife

This is a common misunderstanding, most often seen with the Greek god Hades. Hades is not the god of death, that is a fundamental misreading. He is the god OF THE dead, and king of the underworld. In other words, he is in control of what happens after the event of death.

Thanatos on the other hand is the god(or personification) of death. Depictions range from vengeful, to cold, to kind(ish), but they agree that he, Thanatos, is death. (He also has an interesting family which would be fun to parrel with certain other characters but maybe later)

is this applicable at all to DSMP?

I would argue yes for two reasons. Story telling pulls from the past, both on purpose and unconsciously, and the greek myths are one of those traditions that can be often seen and easily refenced in the west.

Secondly, we know that Techno (C! and CC!) loves the greek myths and has used them in and out of the text of the dream smp to enhance his story telling. With how close CC!Techno and CC!Philza work together I can see Techno's preference for the myths influencing Phil.

Third, Philza literally has used a greek code name in the syndicate, further showing that the greek myths are being drawn on.

What does this mean in dream smp?

This would mean that C! Kristin can both be death, and not be at fault for limbo. She could be the nice, is mischievous, deity the fandom desires her to be without having the implications of limbo looming over her.

Still want angst with though? Use the Ghosts! you can headcannon why Death lets these remnants remain rather than ushering them to the afterlife. Is it because the two main ghosts we have seen (ghostboo and ghostbur) are close to the angel of death? Is it a way of keeping Philza's loved ones close to him? Could she just not bear to keep them way from the world her loved one is in?

Afterthoughts:

Something interesting to note is that Philza's design is often reminiscent of Thanatos, although this often bleeds into Kristin's design.

Thanatos's brother is Hypnos, god of sleep, could be expanded out to Dream XD with XD's relationship with nightmares?

Thanatos is the god of peaceful death, as opposed to keres, the goddess(ess?) who personified violent deaths. (but cannot kill interestingly enough). Could play with this as both Ranboo and Wilbur let themselves die in one way or another. Could this place them in the Thanatos bracket rather that the Keres despite the fact they died by the sword? The non ghost deaths(or later ghost) are Tommy and Mexican Dream who where both flat out killed. Could the 'Keres' of the world not allow ghosts while the 'Thanatos' (C!Kristin) does?

just interesting thoughts :)

[dracoria-azucar]

Please give me the C!Techno critical analysis I know you have, please

Honestly? I don't feel like I have any "hot takes" about C!Techno that others haven't already expanded upon in what are likely much more comprehensive posts. But here I go! Rant time! 

 I agree with all of the general C!Techno critical takes, except maybe that he's wholly responsible for C!Tubbo's execution.

Because in that instance I feel like he should be framed with the same level of blame as C!Sam is for C!Tommy + Ghostbur's prison deaths. In which. It wasn't his fault? But he definitely had a large role in it. He could've stopped it BUT whether or not he was in a position to actually do anything about it is, debatable. 

Because it's incredibly likely, in both scenarios, that there would've been serious repercussions dished out by the people ACTUALLY responsible (aka Schlatt + Dream) for preventing it. 

But because they chose to be complicit we never actually got to weigh which would've been the better option. 

And despite the fact that I don't believe it was entirely his fault, he did shrug off the implications of it to an unacceptable degree. Like. He publicly executed one of his allies at the enemies request. And then, despite attempting to make a case for himself having been under duress, immediately turned and unloaded shots into a crowd of innocents with no provocation. 

 Just, generally speaking, I feel like a lot of my grievances about his character come from his inability to look past what he views as "black and white". Cuz like. 

A lot of his discourse with C!Tommy was not at all one sided. He repeatedly hid things from Tommy during their team up following Exile. Many could go as far as to say he made the kid feel unsafe/unwanted? Which probably wasn't intentional! But still very much impacted their relationship. 

And literally everything about the "original" betrayal was just C!Wilbur purposefully misleading both of them to get what he wanted. He promised Tommy that he WOULDN'T blow up L'Manburg. He also requested that Techno help him cause chaos. And then he promised C!Dream that he WOULD blow up L'Manburg. So all of that was confusing! 

Ultimately, as much as Techno would like to claim he was clear about his intentions, Tommy was also just as clear about his. They both just decided to ignore the warning signs of inevitable mutual destruction because they cared so much about one another, they were sure the other would just eventually change their mind. 

I don't think Techno is a bad guy. But he's definitely got a warped sense of justice and has proven to be a bit of a hypocrite. Which is a dangerous mix, considering that he's one of the most capable fighters on the server. 

If he REALLY wants something, there's really no one that could stop him.

And that's scary because while he's shown he isn't a VILLAIN he's also pretty bad at reading the room and quick to jump on people he's got a bad history with. The fact that he's willing to work with Dream and uninterested in communicating with the people who've wronged him in the past will probably lead to some terrible things lmao