#as opposed to the author of Twilight. the name of the series. which people might actually have heard of.

[haveyoureadthisscifibook]

vote yes if you have finished the entire book.

vote no if you have not finished the entire book.

(faq · submit a book)

[boycottyashahime]

Not sure if it's wise to stan Lindsay Ellis or emulate her in any way, because she's pretty accepting of ships like Beetlejuice (an adult) x Lydia (a child). It seems likely that she'd be cool with Sessrin too and would chastise anyone criticizing that ship.

She also defended Stephanie Meyer's Twilight by omitting most core criticisms of the franchise like its glorification of child grooming, racism, and misogyny. Lindsay Ellis has some good takes, but she'd definitely be on friendly terms with Sessrin shippers and others of their ilk.

I don't really feel like what she's talking about in the screenshots and this situation are all that comparable, though. First of all, in the Inuyasha series, Sesshoumaru and Rin aren't coded as a couple, especially not in classic RT style. There's not really a concrete definition to the relationship at all, which enables a lot of different interpretations, as opposed to the coding leading one to a certain conclusion.

Second of all, the Beetlejuice cartoon and the Beetlejuice movie resemble each other little more than name and character design - in the screenshots, LE talks about how she was initially a little taken aback by how different the characters' relationship was in the movie vs. the cartoon, and how the cartoon fans would ship them in the context of the show because that's how it was presented to them within the context. There's a discrepancy there not because the relationship is coded ambiguously in canon, but because fans are dealing with two totally separate and distinct codings that have little to do with one another. The movie and cartoon are so incompatible in tone and context that it's impossible to reconcile the two into a cohesive canon, so the shippers and anti shippers may as well be talking about two entirely separate things (which they are). In Inuyasha/Yashahime's case, however, the latter follows from the former, they're supposed to represent one long contiguous timeline, and so the dynamic between Sesshoumaru and Rin in Yashahime would have to be based upon that of what it was in Inuyasha, which is where antis in THIS sphere have a problem. It's one thing to have two different fandoms of two different stories entirely where one is very loosely based on the other warring with each other over details that were wholly different from one another (Beetlejuice). It's another to have a direct continuation of a series that may or may not imply some pretty iffy dynamics based on a grown man getting with a girl he has authority over when she's older (Inuyasha/Yashahime).

Third, LE characterizes the shippers of the Beetlejuice fandom as largely peaceful, mostly keeping to themselves until an anti wanders into their midst. In my experience, it's been the opposite in this fandom. I keep on the anti tag, have only posted once in the ship tag (to boost a post that had both ship and anti arguments on it), and don't go looking for fights. I've been getting quite a few shippers demanding in various ways that I shut up and refrain from stating my opinion on my own blog multiple times now. I may be wrong, but given the circumstances, I think that LE might have a less-than-favorable view of the shippers in this fandom for having a similarly militant pattern of behavior to the antis in the Beetlejuice fandom. It's not necessarily the opinion that I see her criticizing in the screenshots (she even says she understands how the content can be upsetting), but the way one invades spaces that are not theirs to insist that someone isn't allowed to have the opposite opinion.

And, at the risk of repeating myself yet again, I actually DO NOT have a problem with the existence of the SessRin ship. I have ignored it for years, and will continue to ignore it for years to come, no matter what Sunrise wants to validate in their sequel. I just have my blog to express my opinion, help commiserate with other antis, and assert that it isn't unreasonable for anyone to read Sesshoumaru and Rin's relationship as platonic. So, actually, I mostly agree with LE in her dismissal of people "supporting" abuse by liking a ship. My issue is with Sunrise if they decide to put positive depictions of grooming in a show for children, but as far as the shippers in the fandom go, I really have no problem with them shipping. Theirs isn't an invalid interpretation either, given all of the surrounding material in the world promoting it. We can coexist, disagree, and still be fine. At the moment. Shippers don't seem to WANT a peaceful coexistence with me, but I think eventually they'll get bored of fighting over nothing.

As for LE's defense of Stephanie Meyer, it was specifically a defense against all the unfair, misogynistic attacks on her for writing something popular with girls and women. She didn't say there's weren't VALID criticisms of Twilight; she just said she was sorry for buying into the intense unwarranted hatred of Twilight and Stephanie Meyer for nothing more than our culture's general disdain for anything that girls like. I'd like to think she really didn't need to make the video where she listed and elaborated upon all the problematic aspects of the Twilight series, because quite frankly, that video already existed in multiple iterations long before she made her own.

Finally, I think it's important to note that I'm 32 years old and not really interested in "stanning" or "emulating" anyone at this point. A couple of anon messages stated they thought there were similarities between myself and LE, and while I am flattered because I think she has some valuable and insightful opinions on fiction, I'm far past the point of trying to be like her or thinking she's flawless. I do have some disagreements with some things she's said before; I don't have much interest in listing them out here, but suffice it to say you should have no worries whatsoever that I would blindly follow her example on every little point. Nor would I suggest anyone else do so. I just like watching her videos, think she has a cool perspective, and am flattered to be compared to someone who it looks like has been pretty successful in writing and publishing a novel, as that's kind of a goal of mine.

[aparticularbandit]

so - i’ve read the first three chapters of snow falling - finally doing that read-through and posting about it i said i was going to do, like, two months ago or something like that (i’m slow, sorry) - and, well, technically prologue and first two chapters - and!  here are some of the things that are different from the story as we know it and here are some things i would change to make it work better as a book (the series told us it bombed so i feel like that’s fair game and also--  well.  i’ll get into it later).

putting this below a cut because it does get long.

also - before the cut - i want to note that twilight and the rest of its series didn’t make me want to pull out a red pen and do a bunch of mark-up the same way that snow falling does.  that may be because there’s about a decade or more between these two instances and i’ve learned a lot about writing since then and less to do with the books in question (and also might have to do with the fact that i’ve actually started doing some editing and looking at this sort of thing) but like - keep that in mind while you read this.

things the book has changed so far (probably not a complete list):

names

as jane would need to do for a fiction book based on her real life

literally one of the smallest changes she would need to make

each name (so far) is easily recognizable as who the real person is because the initials are the same - with the exception of xo, who is named zara, but it’s still the same person - initial isn’t the same, but the sound is.

oh and sin sombra is sin rostro and that’s not sound or initial related but all of you overwatch fans?  SIN SOMBRA.

man without a shadow instead of man without a face.

this is the bare minimum and, as you will see in comments on characters in the setting part, jane really did the bare minimum in terms of hey, these aren’t real people!  they’re fiction but it’s based on me! like.  it’s really obvious here.  in a way that probably wouldn’t be acceptable if they were actually real people.

setting

while this is not something jane would necessarily need to do for her fiction book based on her real life, you know what, it could help to reimagine things.  it doesn’t.

this time around, the setting is still miami but at the turn of the century.

rafael is rake the potential robber baron who is involved in having railroad tracks laid so his hotel can be spiffy

michael is martin the pinkerton police etc. who initially specifically worked for rake to take care of the hotel (and then that expanded to taking care of the city once the hotel did really well.  ish).

jane is josephine the hotel concierge who takes classes from the convent so she can be a tutor but also still wants to publish a novel.

the gang’s all here.

the problem i’ve been running into with this setting is that it ... doesn’t line up with my bare minimum research of law in america in the 1900′s.

sin sombra is an issue because (s)he has been smuggling liquor and prostitutes into miami against the specific laws that tuttle laid down when she built the city.

tuttle is a real thing!  i did not know this!  indicators of jane’s research!

i have found nothing in my bare minimum research to indicate that liquor and prostitution was illegal in miami at this time.

in fact, liquor and prostitution was SUPER LEGAL in america at the time - liquor was only an issue during the prohibition, which was over a decade later, and prostitution only became an issue once a) the origins of the fbi started looking into what they called “white slavery” - sex trafficking - and b) prostitutes starting giving soldiers stds - both of which happened later.  (i actually did bare minimum research on this for sin rostro.  i’m not an authority and it’s possible that the laws in miami were different than they were across the nation at that time.  however--)

during prohibition, miami actually appears to be super lenient when it comes to the legality of liquor and gambling.  (again, i’m doing bare minimum research here and this is definitely from wikipedia - and while wikipedia isn’t a good source in itself, it’s a good source for other sources, etc.)  this would suggest that jane’s general premise re: sin sombra is actually wrong - this, for me, is a concern.

plot differences re: snow falling vs. jane the virgin

as opposed to jane, who was not engaged to michael when she was artificially inseminated, josephine is.

note: i have not actually gotten to the josephine has sex with rake bit.  it is possible she breaks off her engagement before then.  given the little bit i skimmed, i doubt it.

this actually makes josephine in the wrong - SUPER in the wrong  - where jane...you know...wasn’t.

like - cheating on your boyfriend?  not so cool.

cheating on your fiance?  SUPER NOT COOL.

of course i say this as someone who ships roisa so.  pot calling the kettle black maybe.

similar to the original pilot script, josephine was sixteen when she met rake for the first time and he kissed her.

and in this scene, rake reads as super smarmy but that may just be me, idk.

additional complication of this - because josephine is still twenty-three for the majority of the novel, this means there is now a seven year time period between when josephine met rake and when they reunite instead of the five year time period we have in jane the virgin.

there are probably other, smaller things (and i expect there to be big things in later chapters), but for now, those are the big ones.

now - in regards to snow falling as a book--

jane is not a good writer.

there, i’ve said it.  i think i’ve said it before and this is probably not the only time i’ll say it but jane is not a good writer.  and that’s not even in terms of general plot stuff or small things she could change to make the story stronger (and yes, prologue and two chapters in, it could already be a stronger story, and i’ll get to that), that’s in terms of jane, i feel like you’re using a thesaurus and jane, it feels like you’re trying too hard - and i’ll be honest.  i don’t really read romance novels.  maybe this is typical of the genre (although i kind of doubt it).  but like?  it’s not good writing.

that said, it’s not bad writing, necessarily.  the prologue starts off pretty bad, once you get past the narrative epigraph, but it gets better.  but that’s not what you want on a first page.  you want your strongest writing on the first page to hook your reader and not turn them away, not...whatever this is.

but you know what - bad writing - i can get through.  sometimes.  it’s the story that’s the important thing.  is the story communicated to the best of its ability?  is there appropriate set-up and pay-off?  does the style fit?

and here’s the thing - just like in jtv s5 - we run into set-up and pay-off issues.

we know the opening of snow falling from jane’s reading in the series.  we read that and think about michael dies, and for us, that feels like a good set-up.  martin does not die in this book, and so the set-up - as a viewer of jane the virgin - feels flat to me.

that said, in terms of josephine cheats on her fiance with the super attractive owner of the hotel where she works and then gets pregnant aspect, it might pay off.  i haven’t gotten that far in yet.  this one might work out.

there are a lot of things that could be rearranged and changed so that there is a better early pay-off.

the whole flashback scene where josephine meets rake.

during the prologue, we see josephine writing on her novel (or one of her novels - i assume she’s writing a different one than the one she was writing when she was sixteen - and i’ll bring that up again later, don’t worry) when she meets martin after her twenty-first birthday party.

during the flashback, it’s implied that josephine has thought about this mysterious young man again, etc.

you know what would have been a nice set-up and leads to an early pay-off?  make this the scene that josephine is writing in the prologue.

now, admittedly, we don’t see the specifics of the scene that’s she’s writing, but it would be nice - and sets rake up better for the reader - for josephine to be writing about this tall, handsome, rugged stranger that she met when she was sixteen (we don’t need ages.  i have a problem with this one.  for obvious reasons.).  then, when josephine sees rake, we don’t get flashback, hey, josephine met him before and is recognizing him, wow!  we already know that josephine was thinking about him.  it’s set up for us instead of having to be explained later - and that way we actually get the impact of josephine’s realization as it’s happening instead of being told the impact it should be having but doesn’t for us because we didn’t know.

when martin is set on the sin sombra case (with nita!  because nadine is also in this novel, albeit she shows up in the next chapter, alas). the narrator - not the narrator the character we know but the novel narrator (and i’ll get into this again, too) - mentions that there has been an upswing in violent crimes and killings of people involved in having miami grow.

SHOW.  THESE.

SHOW SOME OF THEM.

DON’T JUST TELL US THEY ARE HAPPENING.

UGH.

and, yes, the main focus of the novel should be josephine’s relationship with martin and the complications that arise from the love triangle with rake.  that should be the main focus.

but the point of the novel - as far as i’ve read it, in my measly prologue and two chapters - is that martin is choosing between his job and josephine (which is similar to the problems with jane and michael in the show) and josephine will eventually have to choose between martin and rake (again, similar to the problems with jane and michael in the show)

where josephine’s love triangle is between rake and martin, martin’s should be between josephine and the people of the city that he is trying to protect - and for this to work out well for your secondary protagonist (which martin is shaping up to be because he does get viewpoint scenes, etc. which would imply that, although not THE primary protagonist the same way that josephine is, he is definitely A primary protagonist), you need to show his stakes as well.

in this stead, it would be good to show martin investigating one of these murders or getting involved in one of these violent crimes and then slowly but surely making these connections to sin sombra (who nita actually names and martin shortens it to sin sombra so...that’s a better thing than sin rostro in the show - nita sets sin sombra up as male when sin rostro doesn’t need to be).  if there are violent crimes connected to it and it’s important to your policeman, show one of them.  show him investigating it already.  make him proactive.  just.  ugh.

SET IT UP SO WE CAN HAVE PAY OFF IN THE FORM OF MARTIN BEING PUT ON THIS INVESTIGATION BECAUSE WE SEE HIM PROVING HE’S WORTHY OF IT AND WE’RE ROOTING FOR HIM INSTEAD OF JUST TELLING US ABOUT IT.

and then issues i have separate from these set-up/pay-off issues.

there’s more than one narrator.

and, no, i don’t mean point-of-view character, i mean narrator.

in jane the virgin, which is a tv show, we have the witty latin lover narrator who comes in and comments on what’s going on in the scene and connects us from one place to the other as if he were telling us the story.  this is fine and it works for that media.

in snow falling, we have...somewhere between two and three narrators.

the third person narrator that is limited to the point-of-view character at the time (josephine and martin, typically).

the narrator from the show making witty asides at points in time that jane seemed to think was relevant.

the epigraph narrator - who is either josephine looking back on the events after they’ve happened (which i think, given the prologue, is the correct interpretation) or the witty narrator from the show (which is less likely but possible).

and, given my very short foray into checking the next few chapters, the epigraphs disappear starting in chapter three.  they might come back again.  they might not.  which seems to suggest that josephine the epigraph narrator and the witty narrator from the show are one and the same person.  which is also fine.

however, i have a problem with having epigraphs being set up as a reoccurring thing and then suddenly disappearing after a few chapters.  either they are a consistent thing or you shouldn’t do them at all.  it’s called consistency.  pick one.

now.  there is nothing wrong with having more than one narrator.  there is nothing wrong with having an epigraph narrator who is separate from the pov narrators (brandon sanderson does this really well in his initial mistborn trilogy), and there is nothing wrong with having a witty narrator who makes comments on what’s going on in the book proper ... who is separate from the pov characters themselves (i cannot think of a published novel that does this, but there probably is one i’m not thinking about).  there’s nothing wrong with including the witty narrator from the series as a nod to your readers who are finding the book as a result of watching jane the virgin (which is really what the inclusion of that narrator is - look, we do it in fanfic, i’ve done it in bitches get glitches, you know what?  in and of itself, it’s not a bad thing).

the problem is when one or more of those narrators detracts from or weakens the story by their inclusion.

and here’s the thing - while the epigraphs themselves don’t detract from the story, they can (and by can, i mean chapter two) tell us what’s going to happen before we see it happen.  and while there is some use to an omniscient narrator telling us the story, in this case, it doesn’t always work.  i think, regarding the epigraphs, it would have worked better as a framing device.  having josephine reflect on the events while writing her novel works as bookends for the story.  that’s a trope that jane could have used effectively!

but the witty narrator making comments throughout the novel - which can work - doesn’t work here.  having an omniscient narrator making asides is a form of set-up, yes, but this is heavy-handed is josephine’s life going to change forever? doesn’t.  it just doesn’t.  this narrator who seems so personal and interactive in the series falls flat here.  and from skimming the book, it doesn’t get better.  jane uses this omniscient witty narrator to set stuff up (as opposed to actually setting it up in a more proper way herself) or to call out the set up that a reader might have missed or as a form of ratcheting tension all of which should be done in the novel proper without these forms of asides - or, later on, mocking the reader for believing the omniscient narrator when it set something up that definitely isn’t going to happen in this book (and, yes, from my skimming, this happens, and i’ll probably bring it up more specifically when i get there).

and the issue isn’t that this can’t be done - brandon sanderson, again, did fourth wall breaking snarky commenting omniscient narrator in his alcatraz series (young adult, the first one is alcatraz versus the evil librarians) - and, just like what i think jane is trying to do here, that omniscient narrator is telling the events from the point of view of someone who has already lived them (similar to the assumption that josephine from the future is reflecting on the events of her past and the witty narrator are the same person) - the main difference being that alcatraz is first person and there’s never a question about who the snarky commenting narrator is.

and that’s part of why this is an issue - there’s a tonal difference between the josephine who reflects on her past and the witty narrator so that they probably should be the same character but aren’t the same character because jane and her witty narrator aren’t the same character (but still technically are because jane wrote the story and is writing the narrator’s lines - but that’s meta commentary on jane the virgin when i’m supposed to be primarily focusing on snow falling).  as a reader, i want these asides to make sense, but they don’t help the story.  at all.  at all.  their only use is for those of us who have seen jane the virgin and know the narrator from that story and are entertained by seeing him appear in this one.  but in a novel by itself - the novel jane published - they don’t work.

also there’s a scene in the flashback with rake and sixteen year old josephine where we see the novel she’s writing and i would cut that, too.  it shows that sixteen year old josephine is into the type of appearance that rake has, but it’s not good and it’s not done well.

and so far i think that’s my main problem with snow falling - it could be done well!  it could!  these aren’t terrible issues!  most of them aren’t simple fixes, but there are simple ways to address them!  but they aren’t!

and it’s hard for me, as a reader, to believe that jane’s writing got better when she wrote the book that became jane the virgin - and, worse, i’m afraid that if they published that novel it would read much like this one does, and a book like that on its own - i have a hard time believing it would have gotten the advance that jane did or that it would do as well as the series implies that it did.  and, yes, there are books that people think are poorly written that did really well (some of you may cite the twilight series, but i would probably more likely point to the fifty shades of grey series - which i know from experience some people bought just to make fun of it).

but.  again.  i’m only three chapters (prologue and two chapters, whatever) in, so maybe this gets better.  i doubt it.  but maybe.