#but i don't think the codependency has to be 'solved'. i don't know. hit me with a car or whatever but i want to enjoy that for what it is?

[tracfone]

anyways chelldos fucks and uh. so i guess this dynamic is not great in any real world sense as it can only work with the canon if the both of them for the most part just stay underground together forever alone isolated from the world but also i really do not care. also i think along the way they do (canonically) and will (fanonically in my brain, in my head, lmao) develop a lot of trust in each other and mutual understanding and interdependence that puts them on equal footing with one another rather than like, glados being this big towering force you cannot overpower

[galkyrie]

3 or 4, fates’

3. Oooh my favorite scene for Fates' will probably always be the dumb crab scene because I laughed for like two weeks working out the the action and then the dialogue for Jason finding out they ate the thing BUT-

My favorite serious scene currently is from Ch13:

"Jason had hurt him, severely and more deeply than Tim had ever let anyone else know. In the wake of that anguish Tim had carefully and thoroughly located and excised every piece of him that would be utterly destroyed by that harm and locked it away. Buried it under layers of strategy and cool, invulnerable logic and contingencies until he considered the problem of it all solved and soldiered on. And it would have remained like that- if he hadn’t been desperate. But he had been, and Jason had stepped up.

The place Tim had carved out to hold all he felt about- and for the man didn’t fit anymore. The logic, the contingencies, it was all for a man who had never really been the monster Tim had built that fucking tomb for. And Tim didn’t have any idea what to do about that."

Because Tim doesn't give himself space to think about these things as events are occurring- and he's kept so busy during this time that it literally takes being faced with something so different from what he'd expected for it to hit him that this idea of Jason he has in his head is wrong. Idk its hard to explain I just like the difference between how they think about each other even if what is matching up more and more.

4. Something that was cut from the fic was actually a scene I had from the beginning- They'd bring Bruce home to the Cave and Damian would've more directly accused Tim of being in league with Ra's in front of everyone and Dick would've tried to talk to him there instead of taking him to another room to talk.

Tim was going to get defensive and storm out after the altercation. I changed it because, while I still think it could've fit, the direction the fic would've gone to would be more of the same- Tim only feeling like he had Jason to rely on and being alienated from the others- and I just really wanted to see how it would look if they both helped one another reconcile with everyone else and not gone down that codependent road.

Plus, I don't like making Dick a villain in a story with these two and it got too close to that. The reason Jason was able to get as close to Tim as he is at this point (same with Ra's actually) was the rift with Dick, who's previously been his biggest supporter. And Dick's not like, wrong to think what he does with the context and information he's given. He has motivations they don't always get and he doesn't understand theirs and he makes mistakes, but he loves both of these people and does his best with what he knows and is given. I felt the path originally planned didn't give enough space for that to be true of him so I scrapped it.

I also just realized neither question asked why lmao so enjoy me rambling

[sunnykeysmash]

S14's theme of Trust: How Global Warming reaffirms the Macden meta we already know

Or, a half reworked set of discussions from my Twitter about the underlying themes of FAITH/TRUST and CHANGE present in this season. Particularly between macden because I don't give a damn for the rest. Sidenote: my twitter thread about trust that takes up half of this post was actually written BEFORE GW came out, and despite that it got reinforced thanks to GW meta.

I apologize in advance if the reading isn't as fluid as it could be, it's hard to order the threads in a single cohesive explanation but I still tried my best. Plus, english isn't my first language.

This post contains speculation that links to my previous meta posts, tagged under "iasip meta". That's where I discuss the theme of change more in detail, not here. They're a little outdated in terms of episode prediction but the meta analysis in them holds up and was reinforced in GW.

The bible = Trust/Faith

So, how does faith/trust get in the way of their relationship? Who has it, who doesn't?

Let's address it. This might be long but bear with me I guess. First we need to address what broke their trust.

North Dakota

(aka the element that broke the link of trust between macden for good, from which they are still trying to recover; and how we got there; their shift in dynamic because of it and how it's a vicious cycle that feeds itself until a breaking point, with no possibility for rational discussion. "How Mac will reject Dennis as a final test to restore their trust")

Part 1: how it affected Dennis

It is my understanding that dennis has been left profoundly scarred by how his decision to leave to north dakota went and he has been blaming the gang for failing to stop him from leaving, and especially blaming Mac. Which lead to the events in Chokes.

Where he felt frustrated at Mac for doing everything Dennis says and never going against him. He's constantly pushing him and being abrasive because he wishes for him to snap and act on his own volition.

Because aside from feeling like he can't trust anyone, and like no one in the gang cares for him, he most of all feels like he can't trust himself. He has been scarred by the consequences of his own actions, and doesn't know what else he might do that could have a similar effect.

Of course a person who can't really trust himself would feel paralyzed, they would not act or do anything. Which is why we are moving away from that, slowly. We need to have this progression in order for Dennis to Realize anything at all.

So Chokes as an episode is sort of a milestone, it runs really deep in multiple overarching events and developments. It's not just fixing macden's dynamic, it's beginning to fix a core problem that stops dennis from reaching macden and that has been prominent at least ever since Tends Bar.

It's something that has been going on in the background for a while, that is touched upon sometimes. Dennis desperately wants the gang to care about him.

So when he is surprised by the RPG on the day that for him is most emblematic of the gang not caring, I think it hit deeper than what we're assuming. His feelings were challenged.

DDL is a result of many things. On the surface it's him wanting to be a dad for his child the way Frank never could for him. I think it was also a test though. If they truly cared, they would stop him. They wouldn't want him to go away.

Now. They don't. That stings. Then things possibly go south in North Dakota. That also stings. It's easy to mentally connect the two and realize the hurt he's experiencing. "If they had stopped me, none of this would've happened" I assume is the correlation he made mentally.

So then he probably thought about Mac, and the gesture he made. He thought that meant something, but then him, like the rest of the gang, did nothing. So he's even more angry at him. "For a moment I really thought he cared, why wouldn't he do something?" Betrayal.

So that to me explains why he's been acting like shit towards Mac. And he's been slowly trying to work through his feelings on the matter, as S13 sorta showed initially, with him not wanting to address it at all for a while, and when he tried again no one cared. He's been trying.

I wonder if it's a possibility that, as we reach the resolution to this circumstance, he will try to bring it up again. I wouldn't count on it necessarily, but character wise it would simply make sense. If he's getting over the problem, he's leaving ND behind. He should, I mean.

Part 2: how it affected Mac

But this isn't just a circumstance that hinders Dennis, it has deeply afflicted Mac too, in a way that is just as personal. "No matter what I do for a person, they can still choose to leave me", it is no wonder to see that side of him exacerbated, then.

Before ND, Mac trusted Dennis' words, enough to let him leave if he said he wanted to, even if it hurt. Before ND, Dennis trusted that Mac would always "be there to catch him if he faltered", that he cared, especially after the RPG moment.

These were true. They could always count on each other, trust each other. ND changed everything, and altered their dynamic in a way that we are still feeling, and still trying to remedy. That Mac and Den especially are still desperately trying to remedy.

They /want/ to go back to their codependent dynamic, they /need/ to. But the way they are desperately trying to is only making things worse and worse, and it's a terrible cycle.

[ The more Dennis rejects Mac in hope that Mac will finally go against him, the more Mac is desperately trying to appease Dennis so that he won't leave him, the more Dennis is annoyed and dissatisfied of Mac's submissive behavior and becomes more abrasive in return. ]

Which is why I think discussing that event is a necessity in order for macden to even happen at all. They theoretically need a face to face conversation to resolve these core insecurities that are getting in the way of their friendship (and possibly more).

It doesn't have to be a romantic thing either, it is just necessary for this conflict to be addressed in order for their dynamic to go back to normal. But that can't happen without a breaking point. We know them enough to assume that they're not gonna just discuss it rationally. It would be the correct way to handle the situation, but they're not like that.

Whether everything resolves positively (as in, their dynamic finally shifting back to before ND) depends on how much they want to stay together and what they are willing to sacrifice or compromise for it. Whether certain grievances can be stronger than their bond itself (and I'm pretty sure they can't, or mac and den would've parted already, long ago).

Mac's internal conflict is likely what will make it so that we have to wait a year. If it just isn't resolved, then he would want proof that Dennis isn't /just saying/ stuff. Den might assure him that he isn't but is that enough for Mac?

How do you resolve a conflict that is basically just a huge almost debilitating fear of abandonment and mistrust of the other person's words? In what way can you possibly prove it wrong?

We know Mac loves Dennis, of course he does. But does he trust Dennis? The way he has been behaving towards him tells me otherwise. He doesn't stand up to him.

Not only that but, more specifically, he's always "interpreting" everything Dennis says, you can see it in Texts for example. He knows den never means what he says, and always has an ulterior motive or hidden meaning. He doesn't take den's rejections at heart too much because he knows they're fake.

So now imagine Dennis has a change of heart. Now he goes to Mac, and he tells him Exactly How He Truly Feels. Knowing the way Mac is used to interpreting Dennis, I don't think he'd believe him. He'd want to, but he probably couldn't.

And I don't think Mac even realizes this lack of trust at all. I think it's gonna hit him exactly as it's happening. He might feel happy at first, then be confused at his sense of uneasiness like he's been used and lied to, like Dennis is saying it to manipulate him.

But that's just for words. Physically speaking, I think Mac is very much aware that Dennis has no intention of ever leaving again, nor can he really. That's how it seemed to be in tggr at least.

The abandonment Mac is afraid of is purely emotional at this point with Dennis. It doesn't need to be a "what if he moves out". More of a "what if he doesn't like me anymore and is using me".

So anyway, about the cycle I mentioned earlier.

This feels like a build up. They can't go on like this forever, they will reach a breaking point. I don't expect them to have an honest and open and calm confrontation and solve their differences before a huge snap of both of them happens, I expect the snap.

You know, either Dennis gets too abrasive and Mac finally "snaps out of him", or Mac gets too submissive and Dennis grows tired of him.

However thanks to Chokes and now Global Warming, we can safely predict it'll be the first one. Chokes set us on a path of Mac making his own decisions, which thanks to GW we know will backfire.

They'll fight, Dennis will be overwhelmed by it as Mac ""leaves"", more on that later, first let me finish my discussion on trust.

I find it suspicious how all the episodes with a semblance of resolution that we have had so far only seemed to fix Dennis' conflicts with Macden. We have failed to address Mac's lack of trust in Dennis' words, even in Texts I think. Especially in Texts.

In Texts it wasn't communication that solved the problem, it was an act, a stare. And we only ever heard Dennis' side of it. Mac at this point already believes that Dennis likes him, so there was nothing new for him to discover at the end.

If anything, it reinforced his belief that Dennis says the opposite of what he thinks, that he isn't honest. Because despite how he's been acting all day, he still saw affection in his eyes, I assume.

But Mac has already always paid attention to what Dennis "really meant", I mean, he does it throughout Texts, thought in the wrong way because it was still through text (miscommunication) and he didn't like to consider the alternative.

I put "really meant" in quotations because Dennis doesn't really work like that. Sure a lot of times Dennis doesn't say what he really means so of course Mac would start interpreting him like that, but there are still many times when he's actually honest. This is just Mac's black and white way of seeing den.

Anyway.

As a result of not feeling heard, Dennis actually developed a heavier and more frequent use of sarcasm. Because if people won't do what he says, then maybe if he says the opposite they'll listen to him. It's a reflex born out of frustration.

Back to the "trust" thing now, because see, all this time Dennis has been acting under the underlying assumption that Mac will choose Him every time. Mac doesn't have this assumption, he has been acting to Prevent Dennis from NOT choosing him.

It's gonna be really interesting, if this turns out to be correct, to see the tables be turned and find out that Dennis was the one with faith. We are used to see Mac believe have it, in god and in their relationship, but ultimately it's Dennis that is trusting Mac to make the right decisions. Which includes choosing Dennis every time.

That's a bigass trust to have for someone who says they have no faith. In contrast to that, what faith has Mac put in Dennis? None that I can think of, he actively does stuff that will please dennis, so far.

"leaving"/"rejecting" Dennis in the finale would constitute, again, Mac's faith in Dennis. He would be choosing something that goes right against everything Dennis wants, having faith that this won't mean they grow apart, and maybe even trusting that it's what Dennis actually needs. And it's what Mac would need as well, as proof that Dennis is serious. Because if he doesn't change his mind, then he is. And you can finally see how the whole season has been constructed as a way to move away from the ND conflict in order to fix their dynamic and broken trust in order to make macdennis work.

This calls back to my meta reading for the first half of the season. Again. This is old stuff. But still accurate.

Some snippets.

I now have a more detailed speculation on how Jumper will go which is no longer the one I had in that meta post, but I will spare you the useless talk and get back to my point. Maybe save that for another post. All I need to say here is that Dennis will be adamant that the answer is SHOULD WE: NO, Mac will want to prove him wrong but Dennis will be proven right, subsequently starting the path for Mac's change of outlook. And what will make him say "no"(t yet) even once Dennis believes they should. Boom, karma.

ANYWAY.

Dennis knows he can depend on Mac or at least he's learning so, Mac isn't sure if he can do the same.

As the two bicker over who had trust in who, and who broke the other's trust, it'll come to the surface, through text, that the roles have shifted. Dennis was trusting Mac all along, Mac wasn't.

Which is why Mac deciding for himself, deciding something that goes against Dennis, saying "no", is the biggest leap of faith Mac can take, the thing that would show us that yes, finally, Mac believes Dennis will still choose him.

TGGR's final part of macden's plot itself shows us Mac accepting Dennis' cynical point of view and losing faith. "I guess we're not gonna get that romantic comedy ending after all". But that is not the note the episode ends with.

Right as Mac accepts that it's not happening, we see Charlie and Frank's ending part of their plot. They're reaching back, they have a new realization. Nikki says that they feel the same way, but they still say no for the time being.

How does this all link to Global Warming, finally?

The Global Warming meta

The jump, the realization, the acceptance, in all the meta I have analyzed in the episodes, it all comes AFTER the explosion, the rejection. First things explode and Mac "leaves", THEN Dennis is overwhelmed and changes his mind, reevaluates. Think of the Nikki&Alexi and Charlie&Frank plot as a frame of reference for this. Think of Chokes also, first Mac says "No", then Dennis is satisfied.

NOW, Global Warming macdennis meta, at its most basic, goes as follows:

Dennis thought what he liked was the sexy girls dancing, then they revolted against him and literally overpowered him, and in the aftermath he has a new outlook on the japanese guys that he once disliked. At the same time as this happens, Mac isn't there to help him.

At the same time, we always see Dennis trying to rationalize his way out of conflicts, and it never working, not with Mac, not with the people in the bar.

Basically, we reach a breaking point in the conflict, and Dennis is overwhelmed by it, Mac doesn't help him in GW, he "leaves", I imagine this symbolizing that Mac finally agreeing with Dennis in the actual final conflict would feel to Den like Mac is "giving up on them". Dennis took Mac choosing him for granted, and he now learns how much trust he had in Mac despite saying otherwise (Chokes) and how much it meant to him. Dennis comes out of it changed.

They both do.

This, as I posted about previously, is all part of "God's plan". Dennis gave Mac back his "free will" in Chokes so that Mac's harsh final decisions could ultimately aid their relationship and trust.

We need Mac to turn Dennis down for the time being AND for Dennis to not change his mind during the wait, for the trust to be restored for both of them. To remedy North Dakota once and for all, and move into the macdennis territory. In a year, aka next season.

So finally, we can see how TGGR, Chokes, Texts and now GW all work together as milestones that set us in that direction.