#but i love the rat grinders a lot and think about kipperlily and lucy A Lot <3 complicated women podcast

[latr1nal1a]

people yelling about the bad kids actions like "the rat grinders are just kids!!!" and what do you think the bad KIDS are??? 🤨🤨🤨 they're all kids actually and they're impressionable and emotional and irrational like sorry tbk want to kill people who just tried to murder like half of the school using an ancient powerful grandma dragon???? ON FABIANS BIRTHDAY NO LESS!!

also I really enjoy the rat grinders and I wish we got to see more of them!! I think a redemption arc or even just seeing more of their perspective would be SO satisfying and I would eat it up and bawl my eyes out But. we've had a lot more time with them than the actual cast has. we get a whole week between eps! and people have been putting in their headcanons and going into deep interpretation mode and everything so obviously we're more attached. the only content of the rat grinders the cast is getting is them trying to Destroy The World and Kill Them. Would love more emotional investment in them from the cast (and I bet that could've happened if stuff was steered a little differently but that's its own thing) but it didn't happen and it's still in character!

and now y'all can write sad sad fanfics about the rat grinders possibly having to face Lucy again after dying and their rage curses wearing off n isn't that soooo appealing cmon guys get in the Google docs!!! take advantage!!!

[ratgrinders]

So I read this interview of Brennan Lee Mulligan post-Junior Year (really interesting btw, I recommend everyone check it out!!!!) but I wanted to talk about a couple questions that interested me in it regarding the Rat Grinders:

I love the Rat Grinders and how they're just this dichotomy...Talk to me about leaning into not just that they are the opposite of The Bad Kids, but their corruption, because they were really sweet as the High-Five Heroes before they followed Kipperlilly down this path. Brennan Lee Mulligan: There's an interesting question there. I think that for a lot of it, there were hints, and most of the things we've seen of their sweetness are contextual from bits of writing, little things, investigations. But I think that you can see… It's both. There are elements that they were not always like they are now, but the seeds of what they are now are there in the past. I think that when you look at the High-Five and then eventually becoming the Rat Grinders. There's an indication there of Kipperlilly's focus because yeah, the High-Five Heroes is sweet, but it's also sort of a indication that Kipperlilly is pushing them towards, for lack of a better word, do we have something that we're about? The Bad Kids get their name because they've all been given detention on the first day and it's connected to their story. Whereas you get the sense from the High-Five Heroes that it's not actually describing anything. It's like the person being like, "Our inside joke is going to be high-fives." And you're like, "Well, everyone high-fives." So there's an indication there, for me at least, that Kipperlily is trying to make a comradery right away that is not actually there. It's not based in something that happened to them.

So a confirmation that Kipperlilly naming them all the "High-Five Heroes" on the first day is her trying to "force" a sense of comradery, and also possibly an adventuring identity? Like how the Bad Kids already have this strong group cohesion and "story" because they were all given detention on the first day of classes, and Kipperlilly's trying to create something like that without it having a strong basis.

This seems indicative of a couple things to me, like Kipperlilly having a naturally strong, pushy personality that maybe overrides her other group members, or that she has a certain idea in her head about what makes an adventurer. She wants all the gimmicky stuff like a cool party name and inside jokes, but even then on the first day is trying to force it without having earned it. She's enamored with the idea of an adventurer in terms of them being the hero of their own story, and in her head how good of a "story" you have is directly linked to how good of an adventurer you are.

It also makes her opposing the name "Rat Grinders" later interesting, lol. Rat Grinders is obviously WAY more based in something unique to their party and an inside joke on what they actually do. Maybe it was just because she didn't appreciate her sense of control and her name being undermined.

How do you think they're going to diverge now that they don't have Kipperlilly leading them? Brennan Lee Mulligan: I think that the future of that group is very… I think I leave it to the players, but as you're saying with Kipperlilly, her leadership of that group to me, the moment that is the fundamental, very critical to the season and understanding it I think, is that killing of Lucy Frostblade. Where that is the moment where power and the opportunity for power is chosen over all else. The participation of everybody in that, that the other Rat Grinders came in and that they killed Lucy Frostblade, is the ultimate like, "Oh, we can understand wanting to have the status that The Bad Kids have. This was not worth that. It is not acceptable. Even if you really want to have something, you can't kill an innocent person who is also your best friend to get it. That is evil." And so I think that that's really the turning point for them.

And talking about Lucy being her best friend, and the killing of Lucy Frostblade as the point of no return. I imagine that after killing Lucy the Rat Grinders were deep in the sunk-cost fallacy, that "oh, we've just done this horrible thing, there's no turning back now". Like the text messages the Bad Kids found in Ruben's house.

Canon leaves it slightly unclear the order in which the Rat Grinders were shatter-starred, and just how culpable they are for their actions while under their influence. I'm going to assume that Kipperlilly was the first one, "willingly" taking one (for a given definition of "willingly", as I'd argue she had still be subjected to a year and a half of manipulation and grooming by Porter. She may have been sound of mind, but she never would've done this without Porter encouraging her or validating all her worst aspects). Then, she and Porter worked to kill the other Rat Grinders, an unwilling ritual that put them under the thrall of the rage god. Lucy was the last holdout, and was killed with the assumption that she would come back like they did, but she instead "stuck to her guns" and stayed dead.

I'm also going to interpret the shatter-star as an element of divine manipulation that drives people with rage to do actions they wouldn't do normally, but which are ultimately based on a kernel of truth. Think Adaine in the mall fight, "What would Adaine do if all she ever thought about was rage?" and Siobhan talking about the forest of Sylvaire being destroyed in the search for her mother. We know Adaine would never use such an excessive amount of destruction, but we see the underlying motivation to her actions.

So when the other Rat Grinders killed Lucy, they weren't exactly "sound of mind" as they were under the influence of the rage star, but they were still themselves, they still made the conscious choice to choose power over everything else. The rage star only elevated it to murderous heights; they never would've murdered her without its influence (in fact, I'd argue that the expectation she'd come back is why they did it in the first place), but the motivation still stemmed from a selfish want for power they all shared.

I think, too, that there's a thing with them, there's sort of a you can't have it both ways. The strategy that the Rat Grinders employ to get powerful is to do this grinding. Eventually, they get leveled up also by these powerful monsters that are being killed, they're allowed to join in with, but fundamentally it's like you can't have your cake and eat it too. Kipperlilly as a villain to me is very focused on, "Ooh, I can get by with the letter of the law and not the spirit. There's a better way to get powerful as an adventurer other than going on these important missions where you can probably die." That's the other thing, too, is you look at The Bad Kids, the Bad Kids run into that Corn Gremlin fight, and two of them die. They took a huge risk to save the school and stop something bad from happening, and the Rat Grinders never take that risk. So even as Kipperlilly is like, "Why aren't I getting what they're getting?" It's like, you're not making the choices they're making. Obviously grinding rats in the woods is a safer way to gain levels and the reward for doing it the safe way is you've never saved the world.

And with this last bit, Kipperlilly wanting the accolades of adventuring but without having to risk her life for it. It's interesting that Brennan mentions Kipperlilly avoiding "missions where you can probably die", because I've theorized before that part of the Rat Grinders' motivation for sticking to grinding is them not wanting to risk dying!

This is where genre conflict comes into play for me, because in a normal world I'd argue it's totally acceptable and fine for teenagers to do everything in their power to avoid Literally Dying. However, Spyre is not a normal world and runs on DnD conventions, where Aguefort trains them to be murderous "violent wanderers" who enact their will on the world, sometimes fatally. Death is also comparatively cheaper here when adventurers specifically have an easier time getting revived. The Rat Grinders may protest all they want about the standards of the genre that encourage crazy, violent, fatal behavior, but they're always going to be in the wrong genre and their protests are doomed to failure.

And "having your cake and eating it too". Her adventuring party never took those risks, so they don't get the rewards for saving the world.