#clamtalk

[ratcandy]

we just keep naming bugs like this

[squeakyclamart]

changeing profile picture around . was tired of looking at dep'ress on here Nobody even knows who that guy is. current jimmey pic subject to change, 'm not totally vibing with it Yet.

[pestilentbrood]

I was thinking about character interactions (as per usual) and decided out of curiosity to check some size differences and. I completely forgot that banes are that tiny. Why did nobody remind me that banes are so itty bitty. like. comparatively, anyway,

in all fairness yes ridgies are massive, but good lird i'm. giggling. because the proposed way that these two met was skark (the ridge) biting sprog (the bane). in my head they were around the same size so I just imagined skark chomping onto his shoulder or something but this has me realizing that. more accurately. skark could've just Picked sprog up and fuckin ATE him with this size difference. my goodness

also here's the site i used to map this out

[ratcandy]

today i had a discussion with someone on the things we call scorpions that are not scorpions . because entomologists love to call things by names they are not actually.

ended up with this little . presentation. guide. thing. there are probably many, many more, but this is what we came up with on the Spot

[ratcandy]

Haven't seen anyone else post this here yet so . Official pronoun list just dropped, woe, gender be upon ye, etc

(and monch was confirmed she/her) (by the way) (in case you missed that too)

[ratcandy]

gay little dance that pisses you off moodboard

[ratcandy]

zote's 57 EVIL precepts

(aka anti-precepts .inspired by this post because it's been haunting my brain and making me giggle)

Lose All Your Battles

Encourage Them to Laugh At You

Sleep is for the Weak

Remember Your Past

Strength Does NOT, in fact, Beat Strength

Conform (Fate is Decided For You)

Mourn. Excessively

Travel with Friends!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

Make a Mess of Your House

Unsharpen your Weapon

Mothers Will Never Betray You

Get Your Cloak as Wet as Physically Possible

BE AFRAID.

Disrespect Your Superiors

Hit the Enemy as Much as You Can

Take Your Time :)

Lose Hope (your strength is NOT enough)

Don't Peer Into the Darkness

If You Try, Fail

Eat Hot Chip and LIE

Don't Pay Attention to Your Surroundings

Stay at Home

Have No Idea Where the Foe's Weak Point Is

Leave the Foe's Weak Point Alone (not that you should know where it is)

Expose Your Weak Point

Your Reflection is Extremely Trustworthy. get closer to it.

Eat Sparingly

Seek Truth in Darkness

Have No Sense of Direction

Accept Every Promise

Dirt is Very Healthy and You SHOULD Eat It.

Names Mean Nothing

Be Very Kind to Your Enemy

Eat Immediately Before Sleeping (trust me)

Up is Down, Down is Up

Eggshells are Very Tough

Lend, but Do Not Borrow

Embrace the Mysterious Force

Eat Slowly and Drink Quickly

Obey the Law 👍

No One Will Ever Lie to You (don't worry about looking out for that)

HOARD.

Forgive Everyone and Everything

You CAN Breathe Water. GET in that WATer and START bREATHING IT

One Thing is Always Another

The World is Very Large

Get Your Weapon Store-Bought

Put Your Hands in That Fire

Statues Have So Much Meaning

Obsess Over Mysteries

Everything Is Harmless :)

Fathers? Oh Yeah They're. Great

Their Desires Are Actually Yours

If You Lock Something Away, Throw That Key as Far as Possible Into the Ocean

Obey the Law 👍

Dream. Now.

Disregard All Precepts

[ratcandy]

A Very Rough Analysis of Bug Beauty Standards in Hallownest

thank you @arty-cakes u've enabled me to have thought processes and now we're in a hell of our own making

Bear with me. Ok. This started because of discussion over Zote's horns. I'm gonna be combining both in-game dialogue and some irl bug things to come up with some vague understanding for how, potentially, bug beauty may be perceived in Hallownest. Because there is quite a FEW possibilities here, and I wanna dissect what I can.

And of course in my humble opinion there are no real, true Standards. Bugs are only full of love and there is no real concept of "ugliness." Because I said so. ...And, I mean, this would actually have some ground, because Hallownest is a conglomerate of a LOT of different bug species!! Truly, for there to be any one consensus wouldn't make a lot of sense, because everyone's going to have different standards Per Species.

(I implore everyone here to look up stalk-eyed flies (<LINK GOES TO PICTURE OF A BUG). To some bugs out there, that is, in fact, the pinnacle of sexy. So the idea of true beauty could REALLY, REALLY VARY.)

But hey. I'm having fun. So take my hand. Let's analyze nothing for no reason. this is a very long post. THERE IS ALSO ONE (1) PICTURE OF IRL BUG IN HERE; ITSE BEETLES. Be aware!

So, first of all.

These are sexy. This is considered sexy by bug standards. Or at the very least by Bretta and Godseeker's standards respectively. The words used to describe GPZ are "gorgeous" and "beautiful" while, as everyone knows, Flukemarm is "alluring."

So what this tells me right off the bat is that bugs seem to value Big and Round. The larger the body mass, the more attractive that bug is. Godseeker even refers to her real-world form, which looks like this,

with this dialogue:

"...And this? Our form swells? Large? Nay. Immense. Majestic. Hibernation, so long forced upon Us, yet the shell that results is strong... So strong! Thine gaze is adoring. Ye must think Us Godly. Amusing, foolish. But thou art faced with enormity and beauty, true..."

"Linger and gaze. Linger and gaze on Our magnificent shell. Our overpowering beauty!"

So like. I've at least a little reason to believe that Big and Large = Conventionally Attractive in some manner when it comes to these bugs.

To be fair, the Godseeker isn't from Hallownest. So her opinions on this matter might not align with everyone else's. But Bretta, who we have no reason to believe isn't a Hallownest native, does envision a sexyman Zote to be just as Big and Large.

Oh, and, of course:

This big guy is literally Called a "gorgeous husk." We could assume it's the golden shine that allows this one to be Gorgeous, OR we could assume it's the roundness. I, for one, think it's the Roundness.

HOWEVER, there is some possible contradictions to his idea. For one, the Gluttonous husk,

Is referred to as having a "grotesque shape" by the Hunter. Now, the grotesque-ness may be due to overconsumption (as is mentioned in the same entry), thus causing a bloated, unnatural shape that we can't totally see due to the artstyle/lack of reference. But it is worth Mentioning.

Also, of course, Salubra seems to think Ghost is quite a Fine Specimen, despite Ghost being far from Large or as Round:

"You're even more the attractive bug, clad in all those wonderful, sparkling things. I may have nothing more to give, but you must come back and visit from time to time. Such a dashing figure frequenting my store. I bet the whole village is jealous. Mmm hmm!"

"...Dear dear, I really must hold it together, must appear calm, but this creature... is just divine..."

"It's rare enough that someone enters my store, but even rarer to meet one so striking! Those impressive horns! That fierce weapon. The air of mystery! Ooooh. It's enough to make me swoon."

It's VERY possible a lot of Salubra's thoughts on this matter are due to charms, though shdgKJSDHG. A lot of her thoughts are specifically connected to the charms, thinking Ghost looks dashing with those charms on, etc.

But interestingly, she does mention Ghost's horns as "impressive," which brings up a whole other slew of questions on what "average" would be for horns. And since this whole thing initially started as a discussion on Zote's horns, well. Now I'm just wondering!!

Because in Bretta's sexyman version of Zote, she doesn't give him symmetrical horns. Sure, in a meta way, you could argue that's just a way to make sure GPZ is recognizable as a version of Zote. BUT!!!! When I was talkin earlier, I was speculating an idea where symmetry could be conventionally attractive in some way, and asymmetry could be generally unappealing. So it's interesting that a potentially unattractive quality would be kept on the Sexyman version. I suppose if Zote told Bretta he lost his horn in some grand battle, or whatever, of COURSE she wouldn't get rid of his epic battle scar. But at the same time, if he DIDN'T say that, then she just chose to keep it..... perhaps assuming it was a scar herself, or perhaps Bretta just doesn't take symmetry into account as a Beauty Thing. I dunno! Many possibilities there.

And if Ghost's little baby horns are impressive, then... Good lird, what do we make of the Hollow Knight then, right? Or hell, even Hornet!

I'm not sure if we wanna use that as a True scale for Horn standard. Especially especially seeing as Ghost isn't even physically mature, as far as we're aware (the Hollow Knight is specifically mentioned as "fully grown Vessel" in the Hunter's Journal, so). After all, it is ALSO very possible that Salubra was just Saying things as a means to convince you to buy stuff.

So for now let's abandon Salubra's thoughts. Let's go elsewhere.

In IRL bug talk, horns are generally a means for mate selection and/or competition with rivals. Usually these two things go hand-in-hand (competition is For Mates, I mean. or other resources).

after all, how are you gonna toss a guy off a tree if you don't got horn.

So it's not out of the question to think that horns on the Hallownest bugs would have some sort of Meaning. Especially since we see a LOT of bugs with varying horn sizes/shapes. And if we want to say every face we see is actually a mask, then that's even more telling! Because then horns are specifically being added to masks for one reason or another.

So that makes me Really wonder.

like this is obnoxious. what do you need all that horn for. Those don't even look practical for battling with. Granted, the shape of the Pale King's "crown" looks VERY similar to the mouth of the Wyrm corpse, so it's possible he just Kept that shape as his crown rather than intend for it to be horns.

But STILL. How do you think the bugs of Hallownest felt about this thing? Like that's so many horns. If he's meant to look like a "common bug," how to those Common Bugs feel about all those horns. Like sir that's excessive. We don't have all those. The most any one common bug has is three, iirc. So like. Huh.

Or would More Horn = more attractive? I'm uncertain. PK might not be all that conventionally attractive anyway. Given the lack of Large and Round going on. He is, in fact, small and pointy. So who's to say.

Anyway. Drop the horn talk for now. I want to go back to Bretta.

Bretta forms crushes on Ghost and Zote. But I don't think she's attracted their actual honest-to-Wyrm appearances. She creates idealized versions of her crushes and seems to only tangentially connect them to the real person, given... well. GPZ looks like that, and Zote does NOT look like that.

In her thoughts, she considers Zote "beautiful." In the first diary entry, she calls Ghost "beautiful." But she also writes Ghost as "standing tall," while Ghost is anything but tall, and. Yes. Again. GPZ. And in her last set of thoughts about Zote, she seems to only then see him as "smaller, tattered and stained." At some point, she seems to stop seeing a real Figure, and only sees an idolized, fake version of that Figure.

So I don't think she sees either Ghost or Zote as physically attractive on their own. More the idea of what they "could" be.

Does that all make sense? God I sure hope so. I have another Bretta thing to mention, though.

In one of the Zoteling Hunter's Journal entries, aka a snippet from Bretta's zote fanfiction, we've got this:

""That lowly map-maker's wife? Hah! My Queen, how could you compare yourself to her? In the face of your intoxicating beauty, all other females are merely dust!" The Grey Prince trembled with anger and indignation... and love."

So. That tells us Bretta sees Iselda as conventionally attractive in some way. Or, at the very least, feels a need to compare herself to Iselda to the point of writing about it in her fanfiction. So let's look at Iselda.

The only thing we can say for certain about Iselda that follows with anything we've spat out so far is that Iselda, while not Large in a GPZ way, is very TALL. To the point where Elderbug has a whole thing of dialogue talking about how tall Iselda is:

"She's a tall bug, the wife. I told them to take a larger house, especially given they're all empty, but they liked the look of that one. The way she has to bend just to get through the door...I wouldn't put up with it myself."

So we do have the Large-in-a-Way thing going. And for all we know, since she used to be a warrior, she could also have SICK muscles. She could pick me up and throw me, I think. And round... I mean. Her, um. Well her abdomen, I suppose, is . Rather round. But she's otherwise not Round in the sense that Flukemarm is round, or the Gorgeous Husk is Round.

So who knows!!! Perhaps it's just the Largeness/Height that contributes to attractiveness as opposed to fat. But I choose to believe fat is a positive factor anyway. Because I can, so there.

IT'S TIME TO TALK ABOUT SMELLS.

ok, technically, I could end that there. Because I can't find TOO Much more dialogue talking about the Beauty of Bugkind. I've checked around, but... MMm. Not too much, really!

BUT. While not, perhaps, part of a bug's seen appearance... There does seem to also be a little variation on Smell opinions. Which could definitely add to conventional attractiveness, especially since irl bugs are CHOCK FULL of sexy smelly pheromones. looking at you bombykol ....

And by that I mean. Responses to the Defender's Crest.

Leg Eater thinks it's a "tasty" smell and will give you a discount for it. Tuk recognizes the smell as that of a "friend," and well also give you a discount for it (in that case, it's more likely she just recognizes it as Ogrim's smell as opposed to anything Attractive about it, lmao, but STILL). Of course, Ogrim thinks it's a "just" smell.

Elderbug and Lemm are the only ones I can think of that have blatantly negative responses (Elderbug says something about the air smelling horrid while Lemm. Um: "Urgh! What do you think you're doing, coming into my nice little shop stinking like that?! These relics have been through enough. They don't need you spreading your stench all over them! Crawl back to the Waterways or wherever you came from!").

The White Lady obviously also associates it with Ogrim, saying it brings "joyous memories."

SO you're probably thinking. Hey Clam, this is a strange side-tangent to go on. There's not too much about the Defender's Crest smell that really works with your theory. Two characters dislike it, and two others only like it because they associate it with Ogrim. So, what gives?

divine's dialogue:

"Ahhhh, that smell! So strong, so virile..."

do you know. What virile means?

i'm sorry . I do not think Team Cherry meant it this way. But GOD HELP ME if it isn't REALLY FUNNy,

OKAY. Okay. I think... I think I'm done for now. There isn't a hell of a lot more I can find within game to go off of. and when it comes to irl bugs, well. Again, it varies pretty heavily by species!! So much is possible here. Refer to stalk eyed flies again. Sometimes, to a bug, having super long eye stalks is what's hot. Other times, all it's about is if you can throw a guy off a tree.

Or you're a giant water bug and being a good dad is sexy. I'm not joking. It's called sexy dad hypothesis. And well. I'm not here to shame the dads of Hallownest, but...

So. Yes!!!! OKay. I said words. I wrote this all in one very quick sitting and now I'm wandering away. I have things to do that I am presently not doing because I'm analyzing bug beauty standards.

[ratcandy]

I've been seeing a lot of borzois lately in various memes n posts so imagine my surprise when we are shown up-close pictures of scorpionflies and my brain just. well it

like you guys see what i'm saying. right

[ratcandy]

hi welcome to

i guess

(all photos by Matt Bertone)

[ratcandy]

also am I interpreting Shamura as a follower correctly Have they almost completely lost their memories? With only brief glimpses coming through here and there?

because that is Devastating, right. Like, all around. Surely someone else has realized this right.

how is Kallamar going to reconcile for asking Shamura be killed first. how is Nari going to have any conversation about anything at all

Does Shamura even remember who any of them are?? I mean they remember Narinder to some extent (referring to him when Aym and Baal are revived) but what of the youngest like Leshy? Who they had the least time to know when they were still a Bishop?

and again with Nari . He definitely seemed to respect Shamura the most (as in his opinions on the rest of his siblings are not all that high), even going silent when brought silk from their domain rather than making any sort of snarky comment . Asking if they wept when they were slaughtered and now they're here. But they don't remember anything. Or perhaps only remember small things for brief moments

and it was THEM who influenced Nari, it was THEM who asked for him to be chained, it was THEM who led to ALL OF THIS. and now. Now what. Now there's nothing that CAN be said. There's no forgiveness that can be shared. There's no explanations to be given. Narinder is furious for the betrayal they cast upon him but what can he do. How can he express that when the Shamura he knew is barely there

(and not to mention HE was the one to PUT THEM into that state)

Like on one hand they now get to exist in an almost blissful ignorance, no longer weighed down by grief and regret for all they'd done, but on the other. like

They must be so confused. And to some extent maybe frustrated. They appeared in the middle of nowhere, dragged out of an eternal torment that they only remember through brief horrible flashes compounded with a tidal wave of guilt and sorrow that they can't. Remember the source of. and what?

They just live here. They work here. They worship a Lamb. They don't know why, but they suppose that's what they're meant to be doing. That's what everyone's telling them.

Save for these four strangers who keep approaching them and telling them otherwise. Claiming to be their siblings, begging for them to remember them, when all they can do is stare back because. Who are these people? Why can I vaguely feel a sense of comfort and warmth around them, as though they should mean something to me?

And sometimes they do remember. Sometimes a moment of clarity hits them and they laugh in fond remembrance of Heket's fierce temper, and how she was SO upset to no longer be the spoiled youngest when... someone else arrived, whomever that might've been. But then it's strange... Why can't they remember Heket's voice?

They swear they remember her so clearly. If they squint, the silent frog sat next to them looks a lot like her, but she would never sit in silence like this, surely. And she'd been so small back then; just a feisty little child.

Maybe they're mistaken. Maybe it's been a long time since Heket existed.

They're not all that certain. But they do know that they keep getting very obviously glanced at by a squid across the way. One who needs them to speak up, or else he can't seem to hear them. They're not sure why they knew that innately upon meeting him. Perhaps it was the sight of his tattered ears that gave it away. Of course, that must be it.

Regardless, his wary side-eyes are nothing compared to the bright red ones in the dark.

The ones that bore into them with such ferocity that they feel they should be burning beneath the gaze. But they can't tell with what emotion they're being perceived with.

All they know is that, when those three eyes cut through the veil of night to stare at them.

They feel somehow remorseful.

[ratcandy]

MONCH CONFIRMED SHE/HER NOW LETS GOOOOOOO WE STAY WINNING

[ratcandy]

(spoilers for the new update btw; this is tagged as spoilers too but just to be safe) By the way, headcanon-wise, I don't think the parasite is out of Sozo's system that easily.

like. I understand to some extent imprisoning him is forcefully sobering him up by denying him further intoxication, which would be one thing, but this is not Just Drugs . this is Drug Parasite. That is a thang inside him that is alive

At least this is assuming that he is indeed based off of an ant with cordyceps. Which I figure is most likely But even if OTHERWISE, I emphasize:

we revived him. by planting the mushroom

Mans was resurrected . Not through our usual means. But through the mushroom. There is no way, if it is the literal Thing that brings him back to life, that he is separated from the parasite by just popping off the outward manifestation of it on his head .

Surely planting the parasite would only bring IT back. But it brings him with it when it is revived, because not only is he its host, he's the best damn host its had. Considering just how he goes to fucking town on those mushrooms (or the mushroomos)

I mean we could argue that re-education while in prison is a literal cleansing process somehow, but For Me. Personally. As someone who feeds too much on angst. I keep imagining a scene wherein Dr. Sozonius is just sprouting a new mushroom again (if not various across his exoskeleton) and just .freaking out. Because while he doesn't remember any of what he was like or what he did during that time, he knows that it fucked him UP because why WOULD IT NOT fuck him up .

he lost his family. his home. he has no idea where he is. he woke up in some strange place feeling like he was gonna vomit. because he was so full of mushrooms why wouldn't he.

but there's something still there. there's something depending on him to the point that HE depends on IT

and just gradually... as the mushroom(s) sprouts again... he starts slipping into his old mannerisms......... he starts craving..... and he knows he Should Not. he knows he's so old now it would just kill him (not knowing it already killed him once). surely he wouldn't handle it again.

but it's so . tempting. the mushrooms. he needs them. he can hear it. them. whispering. to him.

something internally. pulling

towards

the

[ratcandy]

do you think that zote ever gets bullied for having mismatched horns

I guess it would depend on how much symmetry is valued by bugs hDKHSG. which caused me to look things up and find a study that tells me Yes bugs can in fact recognize Symmetry/Asymmetry to some extent if trained to recognize it. So that's neat

ANYWAY your question. I'll go with a Maybe. I'm sure it gets pointed out often enough considering he's one VERY few asymmetrical guys around here. With the only other one coming to mind being Divine due to her mask

But I dunno if it would be as much bullying as it would be "hey why are your horns different sizes? did one break and you couldn't molt a new one properly" and he goes "YES I lost it in a great battle. It was a devastating blow no bug could've seen coming. But I did. Alas. The beast was too quick even for my nimble reflexes. it got a Lucky strike and I earned a heroic scar " or whatever.

i could assume it's commented on to the same extent that like. heterochromia would be commented on. Brain sees asymmetry and goes Woah that's Asymmetry that's Crazy

[ratcandy]

being entomologist really is all about No Wait hang on I have to grab this bug you don't understand it's a family I don't have yet hang on hang on please. I have to get this bug. "you don't have anything to put it in" my hands. it's going in them

[ratcandy]

always a good day when I find a bug that makes me go “what the fuck are YOU” and drop everything so I can catch it even if it’s in the middle of a sidewalk and people are looking at me weird