#except now it's Edelgard that wants to keep Rhea alive and Claude who is willing to do anything to kill her

[butwhatifidothis]

Why GW!Claude Isn't Interesting: A Checklist

got long lmao under the cut it goes (edit: FOR REAL THIS TIME WHOOPS LMAO)

-> Why is it uninteresting for GW!Claude to be someone who manipulates those around him into thinking he's doing good things as he does actions that are inarguably evil?

Because that's just Edelgard.

-> Why is it uninteresting for GW!Claude to be someone who grew up in a country known to want to expand its power through violent conquest, and who is thusly influenced to do the same himself because of that?

Because that's just Edelgard.

-> Why is it uninteresting for GW!Claude to be someone whose actions are meant to be surprising because he ends up being just as bad and manipulative and dangerous as his initial appearance made him out to be?

Because that's just Hubert.

-> Why is it uninteresting for GW!Claude to be completely uninterested in looking into the Church's supposed crimes and letting his (at this point) willful ignorance drive him to extremely violent acts?

Because that's just Edelgard.

-> Are GW!Claude's actions the result of a character being gradually driven to become the very thing they hate, through a steady degradation of their core morals and values?

No. GW!Claude very suddenly drops any core aspects of his character so that he is willing to do what he does. The callout of his route (sacrificing Randolph) is set before he does something infinitely worse with little to no reaction from his allies whatsoever (invading the Kingdom, Sreng), erasing any "steady degradation" of morals as the decline in them is not treated properly.

-> Are GW!Claude's actions the result of desperation - or rather, is that possibility properly shown off in his route?

No. GW!Claude unquestionably holds his own amazingly well against the Empire, especially considering the general nature of the Alliance that made it exceptionally weak in a military campaign. Even when forced to retreat from the battle with Bergliez - which was going well before the retreat, even with Jeralt’s Mercenaries there - due to Shahid, Claude not only handles Shahid’s invasion to near perfection, but he left the battle with Bergliez in such a way that him pursuing Claude would've ultimately hurt him more than it was worth (as it would destroy the fields of the breadbasket of the Empire/Fodlan) - meaning, the Empire couldn’t even make use of the forced retreat without making things ultimately worse for themselves. The narrative tries to say that Claude was barely holding his own against the Empire, but the actual story events fail to properly portray that as Claude has success after success fighting against them and as the Empire never once succeeds (without it quite literally being part of Claude’s plan for them to, in any case).

-> Are GW!Claude's actions the result of (properly portrayed) heroism?

No. Not only are his actions fundamentally villainous, not only are the justifications for doing them faulty at best, but he ultimately doesn't even accomplish what he set out to do, making them completely pointless and unnecessary. At best, any attempt to portray him as heroic fail due to moral bankruptcy and general incompetence.

-> Are GW!Claude's actions the result of (intentional) villainy?

No. The narrative portrays GW!Claude as only doing what he feels he must, with his friends blindly placing their faith in him and thus narratively encouraging his decisions. The developers also stated that they wanted Claude to be seen as someone who encompasses noble leadership and whose story is heart-touching - where, despite his "harsh actions" in the name of his ambition, his allies still support him. Both inside and outside of the game, GW!Claude is not meant to be seen as a villain, despite his villainous behavior and actions.

-> Is him facing off against Rhea as his final boss given any proper build up in his route?

No. Through all of Chapters 4-8 (as in Part 1 of GW as an individual route, during the war phase) Claude's thoughts and feelings towards the Church are not just completely ignored, they are flat out unstated in its entirety; he mentions nothing of the Church on a personal level, and in fact only mentions it in any capacity a handful of times. Every chapter he states that is it specifically and only the Empire (+ Shahid, once) that he is fighting, and that is because it is specifically and only the Empire (+ Shahid, once) that is fighting the Alliance. To say that it is Rhea that ends up becoming the final boss of his route and not either the Empire or Almyra, it is nonsensical that for the entirety of Part 1 Rhea is never mentioned to be any sort of threat to Claude; if Claude truly always thought of her as so dangerous as to need to be killed, and to be killed by any means necessary, it obviously makes more sense for him to bring it up at any point of his route beforehand, but he does not.

-> So in a nutshell, why is GW!Claude uninteresting?

When he is not being a blatant copy of Edelgard (with a sprinkle of Hubert), GW!Claude's actions are a jumbled mess, both thematically and practically. His complete 180 in drives from wanting to take down the invading Empire to wanting to kill the doing-nothing-wrong Rhea is given no justifications deeper than "someone told Claude that Rhea was Bad," and is thus not given any more effort than that to justify his horrendous actions. These horrendous actions, which we the player are told is part of a "heart-touching" story of a man who ruthlessly and cruelly takes advantage of a border conflict to weaken an already struggling Kingdom so that he may more easily invade it, even though he personally knows the residual horrors that border conflicts can inflict on the people on both sides. The ramifications of his actions are not treated with the correct weight, as his sacrifice of an Imperial general is treated as narratively worse than his invasion of a struggling Kingdom and his worsening of a border conflict for his own gain. This of course erases any possibility for the player to truly feel genuinely culpable as a result of the story wishing for them to feel that way, as priority is clearly given to named characters over nameless concepts - you know Randolph, big brother of the little girl Fleche, and you should feel more bad for him than "the people of Faerghus," who are little more than lines of dialogue on the screen. Knowing of this prioritization saps the story of any true meaning behind it, as it clearly only wants the player to care about individual characters and not all who are truly affected by characters' actions. After all, it's not Claude's invasion of Faerghus itself that can cause Judith to die, nor is it him tampering with Sreng: it is specifically Claude sacrificing Randolph that is ultimately the catalyst of Judith's (potential) death. Narratively speaking, sacrificing Randolph is worse than causing the death of countless innocents in the name of a pointless invasion, that in itself is in the name of a pointless hunt for Rhea's death. GW!Claude is uninteresting because he has no cohesion, no logic, nothing that connects his actions to any rational sense - both referring to strictly 3Hopes and especially when factoring in his 3H counterpart. GW!Claude is uninteresting because he isn't a villain, as both the story and writers don't view him that way, and yet he fails to be a hero due to both his completely amoral actions and the story itself being uncaring of all GW!Claude is able to accomplish with his meager resources in Part 1; he thus falls into an area in which his heroic actions (keeping out the Empire as well as he does) aren't given the credit they're due and his villainous actions (invading the Kingdom, Sreng, the killing of Rhea) aren't given the weight they deserve. GW!Claude is uninteresting because, most damningly, he is woefully inconsistent; he's at the complete whim of the plot, changing on the drop of a hat when it calls for him to. While 3H!Claude was completely underutilized, he was still consistent and whose character makes sense given his circumstances, and he also holds a unique place in the cast with his personality, drives, ambitions, beliefs and ideals, actions, etc.. None of which can be similarly said for GW!Claude, hence his complete and utter uninteresting appeal as a character

[blazestarre]

Okay, now that I’ve gotten to experience some of the game beyond the demo (haven’t reached *that scene yet* but I have a better idea on story direction), here’s some further thoughts on Claude’s characterization:

It’s definitely debatable how well the writers handle everything, but I think I understand how they came to the decisions they did with Claude.

It’s not just that he never met Byleth, he never went through White Clouds AT ALL. What I think 3Hopes demonstrates is that most of Claude’s development was during the school phase. He gets to know his classmates, discovers there’s a lot of Fodlan he doesn’t understand (leading to him trying to figure out these mysteries during the rest of the game), and he meets someone who he feels can help guide Fodlan to a better future. In 3Hopes, he spends, what, two weeks at Garreg Mach? A month, at most. With how distrusting he his, that’s not enough time for him to change his mind about anything.

1.) Gets to know his classmates - Claude views the GD as his friends, sure, but not in the same way he did in 3H. I reached Claude and Lorenz’s C support in 3Hopes and damn, that hurt. Those two do not trust each other one bit. Well, Lorenz doesn’t. Claude’s a sad boy who wants to trust, but isn’t willing and tries to deflect. On top of that, Claude hides his plans from all the GD, including Shez. Yes, he hid his plan about getting help from Almyra from the GD in 3H, but he still tells Byleth. Then, after he’s confronted about, he explains in detail why he did what he did. He doesn’t hide his future goals. It’s presented completely different in 3Hopes. In 3Hopes, I get the feeling of Claude doesn’t trust the GD with his plans and the GD don’t trust him. There’s no found family with the GD this time around.

On top of that, there’s Edelgard and Dimirti. I’ll get to Dimitri in my last point, but as far as Edelgard? Claude doesn’t know Edelgard had been planning the war before they even went to Garreg Mach. He doesn’t know what she’s willing to do to reach her goals. And Claude is desperate, that much is clear from what I’ve played so far. He’s extremely stressed, worried about the future of the Alliance, and everyone’s questioning him, which seems to lead to him doubling down on his decisions. I think I see how, in that state and not actually knowing much about Edelgard except surface level stuff, he can end up making a decision that he never would in 3H.

2.) Discovering he doesn’t know everything - My views on this haven’t really changed since the last post, so I won’t say much. However, while Claude is definitely someone willing to admit he was wrong and change his mind, he still needs evidence to do so. No White Clouds means he never discovered there was a greater mystery to the Church and Fodlan as a whole. He has no reason to think Rhea has answers that could explain how Fodlan ended up as it is. So to 3Hopes!Claude, Rhea has no importance other than just being the Archbishop. Why would he want to keep her alive if he believes her death could stop the war? Not saying this is great logic, but with being overly stressed and the fact he doesn’t actually know what Edelgard is capable of, I think I can see how this can come about.

3.) Meeting Fodlan’s future leader - You thought I was just talking about Byleth, huh? Nope! This is Byleth AND Dimitri, depending on the route. On VW, SS, and even CF, Claude believes Byleth can help guide Fodlan to better future, one that can lead to a better relationship with Almyra. Yes, even CF, considering how he reacts to Byleth in battle. On AM, though, this role goes to Dimitri, which is important. Claude gets to know Dimitri in White Clouds. He knows Dimitri can be a great leader. And in AM, Claude puts all his his trust in Dimitri to come to Derdriu’s aid. 

In 3Hopes? Claude doesn’t know Dimitri and flat out says it. He’s not willing to put his trust in the Kingdom because he doesn’t know what’s going on in Dimitri’s head (which he directly states). This was the moment I realized where the writer’s were going and how they got there:

Claude doesn’t need Byleth, he needs White Clouds. He needs to bond with his classmates, discover there’s more to what’s going on, and he NEEDS to get closer to both Edelgard and Dimitri to better understand them. Without White Clouds, Claude never gets his character development. He keeps his facade of the ‘embodiment of distrust’. He’s not really listening to other people, either, and you add that to the stress of leadership, suddenly making a decision that 3H!Claude would never consider makes some sense.

Again, I’m not saying this is done extremely well or something we should be satisfied with. I haven’t gotten that far into the story to solidify my opinion, but I will say that I don’t think this is the character assassination we all thought it was. I see the logic on how the writers got there, which makes the whole thing more...fun? for me. To me, this has become an interesting ‘What-if’ scenario with a heavy dose of dramatic irony. Because the writing doesn’t seem to be saying that Claude is in the right. With how the other characters are reacting, I’d say that the story is trying to say that Claude’s making poor decisions, and if things continue like that, I think I’ll be just fine with Claude’s route.

[fireemblems24]

VW Chapter 19

Onto Verdant Wind now, in what I suspect will look suspiciously like SS's chapter.

Spoilers for up to Chapter 19 for all routes except SS (ch 18) possibly below.

Pre-Battle

So I'm betting this is the "defeat Hubert" chapter? But the question is, for real this time or no?

Yep, you're fighting the Death Knight and Hubert . . . again . . . Who's left after this, just Edelgard?

LAMO, funny how Claude opens nearly the exact same way Seteth did.

Oh, I get to ask about the citizens this time? Picking that answer 100%. The vibe is so different from CF where invading is an exciting thing. At least for Caspar. Maybe I'm misremembering others.

You know what? That would be an interesting post if I ever had the time for it. To go through the script somewhere and list every time citizens/commoners are mentioned throughout the game and just see if different routes vibe differently.

YIKES - Edelgard's using her citizens as a shield to protect her? That's . . . that's something. I guess she's living up to her claim during that Lonato chapter.

I still hope we find Rhea again though. I'm super curious to hear her story.

Battle

When Claude says - no route enemy, target enemy commanders - I ignore him.

So . . . Byleth wolloped the Death Knight for most of his HP and he only had like 16 left. And I wanted to give him the most lolz death possible, so I had . . . Marianne . . . kill him - with an iron lance. Frozen Lance FTW.

Having Claude attack Hubert for that sweet, sweet unique dialogue.

LAMO he called Hubert a lapdog. Hubert tried to be edgy, and Claude was just having none of it.

But why does Hubert give you a Goddess Icon when he dies? That will never not be funny to me.

Post-Battle

DEDUE. What a way to return to the game after a two week separation than to see my lovely Dedue again.

Except this is VW Dedue and Dimitri is dead, and he's just living for vengeance now, which Dimitri would hate.

Ok, so is there any fanfics out there of a post-Grondor VW or SS Dedue meeting ghost Dimitri or something? I think I want that pain. Those two seeing each other again, Dedue realizing Dimitri's still dead, Dimitri blaming himself for Dedue living for vengeance and nothing else, and then Dimitri fades away again before either get to confess their feelings.

On second thought. I don't want that fic. I want AM back. Or a VW fic where Dimitri survives and reunites with Dedue for real.

Dedue the real MVP, and now he's off on his own. What happens to Dedue after this? Do you ever see him again?

LAMO. Claude wants a new ruling system too. Edelgard really never bothered talking to him, hunh.

No. Claude. No. We do NOT need one powerful ruler leading all of Fodlan. Divide the power, don't centralize it. One all-powerful ruler is a horrible, horrible idea.

I'm totally picking "I should be that ruler." Because it makes no sense whatsoever, because who wants to put a rando mercenary on the throne? Claude's probably the right pick, but I can't resist.

Claude was upset with me lamo.

It better not be Byleth in charge at the end. Oh, God, please don't tell me all the routes don't end with an all-powerful Byleth ruling everything while Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude just roll over.

Pre-Battle

These chapter pictures are kinda cool looking. They remind me of folk art or what you'd see in an illustrated book on Nordic mythology. I like it.

Oh, no, it's that same lame response from Byleth about not wanting to kill Edelgard. But why though? Byleth doesn't even KNOW Edelgard here?

I hope Claude gets annoyed with me for whining about some girl I talked to like twice who's currently destroying the continent. I hope this trite doesn't show up in AM too. It made sense for SS, but VW?????

That's fair from Claude. Sure, we won't kill if we don't have to, but she has to be willing to work with someone else which doesn't seem like her strong suite.

Time to go kill Edelgard again. I hope I can keep Dedue alive this time too. Last time was easier because my units are better. I could just send Sylvain and Ferdinand anywhere, surrounded by enemies, and they don't care. This group, not so much :(

Battle

Claude just called Edelgard our "bashful little Emperor." She'd be livid.

The plan is to get Felix to kill Edelgard to get vengeance for Dimitri. The problem is that Felix is a dancer and doesn't have a lot of strength. Let's see if he can pull this off.

But first, Edelgard and Claude dialogue.

Lol, Claude promising to finish the job for Claude. I'm liking his more laid back tone more than I did before.

Edelgard really refuses to work with Claude, hunh. He asked her twice now, she even acknowledged that Claude's after the same thing but still refuses to work with him because he got a C in history class I guess.

It's funny hearing Edelgard tell someone they lack self awareness.

No unique dialogue for Felix and Edelgard though :(

So, this is how it went down in my head. Felix kept quiet and standoffish, not bothering to know the Golden Deer better, just staying in the training room day and night, focusing on nothing but the blade. But then he never used it on the battlefield and only danced, never really seeing combat. So when they were storming the castle and seeing Felix advance towards the throne room, they all expected he'd dance. But he walks by Claude, walks by the rest and advances on Edelgard, saying he'll cut through, not even realizing that's what Dimitri used to say. But Claude remembers. And he watches Felix's cold eyes and a single-minded focus on taking Edelgard down. And he does.

Then Felix leaves without saying a word, exchanging one quick, understanding glance with Dedue, who always knew that, despite their very different ways of going about it, that they were the two who loved Dimitri the most.

Ok, I'm finished now. Someone take this keyboard away from me. I haven't gotten to write in two weeks now.

Post Battle

Wait, this is the same cut scene??? Why the fuck is Edelgard calling Byleth her teacher? I don't even know her?

This scene makes no sense here. It was good in SS, but wtf Edelgard, why are you so hung up on Byleth when you don't even know them?? God, I'm not looking forward to seeing this again in AM.

Edelgard really be a simp, hunh.

So how confused was everyone that played VW or AM first and saw Edelgard, who you don't know at all, get all weepy over Byleth for no real reason?

Leonie MVP. Not surprised, girl put in the work.

No, we beat her because of Felix, not because of Byleth. Byleth was on chest duty.

Oh, the letter is here too. This really is the exact same as SS again. Poor Claude. He really deserved better. Dedue and Hubert have bigger roles in VW than Claude does for crying out loud.

If it's the same group as Monica and Tomas, I'm not that worried about them. They weren't exactly . . . threatening.

Rhea, though, she's back!

Oh, at least this is a bit different with him asking about the children of the goddess. He could wait a second and let poor Rhea step outside in the sunlight again first though.

So the guy named Nemesis wasn't a hero after all. I'm shocked. Totally shocked I tell you.

Can I take a wild guess that Rhea, Flayn, and Seteth are "the children of the Goddess?" And the Goddess is Sothis obviously. That's why they wanted Flayn's blood, because it's fancy blood.

Claude's a globalist lol. Hey, at least he acknowledged Duscur - unlike someone . . .

Next Chapter

Shamballa sounds like a place in Fullmetal Alchemist

At least they addressed why they never bombed the monastery.

Still doesn't explain why they haven't dropped one on Dimitri yet though.

Rhea is coming!!! I know I won't get to use her as a unit though :(

This is still the exact same as SS though :(