#first of all it is abundantly clear you have no idea what zionism actually is

[boasamishipper]

this may sound harsh but if you refer to the posters with pictures of the israelis kidnapped by hamas on 10/7 as ~zionist propaganda~ and/or deface or tear them down, i think you are a despicable human being and i hope you drop dead

[diamondorloj]

You are so smart and well educated, especially regarding Israel and Jewish history, so I hope you don't mind if I ask you to help me, an uneducated (and to be honest mostly ignorant towards politics because of personal issues) person, to graps what the fuss is about all the political statements during ESC this year? I'm really confused and used google but I understand like maybe half of what's going on. Sorry to bother you.

Hey, thank you for coming to me. First off, I have studied and learned a lot abut the topics, but they’re very complex and full of details beyond my grasp. I’ll try to make this short, but your ask was a little broad and calls for a couple of explanations.

First off, there are rules against political statements and activism in every Eurovision song contest. For example, the only flags allowed in the arenas are the flags of UN states and of the EU, as well as unpolitical flags like the rainbow or the trans flag. In 2016, there was a conflict because the Armenian delegation held up a flag of Bergkarabach, which is debatable territory between Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Now, here’s the EBU statement: “In the live broadcast of the Eurovision Song Contest Grand Final, Hatari, the Icelandic act, briefly displayed small Palestinian banners whilst sat in the Green Room. The Eurovision Song Contest is a non-political event and this directly contradicts the contest’s rules. The banners were quickly removed and the consequences of this action will be discussed by the Reference Group (the contest’s executive board) after the contest.”

Determining a course of action on legal grounds based on the flag rule is going to be a little difficult because as of 29th November 2012, Palestine was granted the status of an observer state in the UN. However, showing the Palestine flag in Israel, on an Israelian stage, is considered political activism (and just generally…bad).

To briefly touch on the history of the Palestinian and Israelian conflict is almost impossible. The area of today’s Israel and Palestine used to belong to the Osmanian Empire, which shattered in 1922 officially and for a huge number of reasons. Great Britain took over mandate control for the area they then called Palestine, until it was possible to establish its own state. This was a common idea of the time for colonies that were supposed to be supported on their way to independency. Jews had fled to this area for centuries, but especially so during the 19th century because of rising antisemitism in Europe. While it wasn’t exactly pleasant to live as dimmi, people of the books and second-class citizens, it was relatively safe and peaceful, and Arab people happily sold their land to Jewish immigrants.

The idea of safety for the Jewish people led to the idea of a Jewish state, which is zionism. However, there were many options discussed as to where this Jewish state should be installed – among them were Uganda and Argentina. In the end, it probably was a mixture of many factors, like the Jewish connection to the land of Israel and Jerusalem, the fact that many Jewish people had bought land in Palestine for a relatively good price and that a lot of Jewish communities already lived there. Great Britain agreed to install a Jewish state, however they also installed the Great Mufti of Jerusalem, Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, and he incited violence and pogroms against the Jewish people. He vehemently opposed the existence of any Jewish state and also collaborated with the Nazis, organised a Muslim garnison in the SS, and is responsible for many people dying in the Holocaust because he prevented them from fleeing to Palestine.

So, after the Holocaust, the calls for a Jewish state for the Jewish people got louder because it had been made abundantly clear that no other state would guarantee their safety and survival. The UN was very newly installed and kinda improvised a new solution for the territorial conflict: There should be both a Jewish state, called Israel, and an Arab state, called Palestine. Jerusalem should stay under UN control. It was a hasty, imperfect plan, however the Jews accepted while the Arabs declined and the Arab nations surrounding Israel declared war on the same day Israel was founded. Against all odds, Israel won the wars and exists to this day. During the war, there were many refugees on both sides. Israel advertised for Arab people to stay and granted them full citizen rights. The Arab states called for Arabs to leave the places of war and conflict and were promised they could return to their homes when the war was over aka Israel destroyed. Well, guess what. Many refugees of these days and their decendants fled to Syria, Jordan, Egypt but were not taken in and instead were used against Israel. To this day, there are refugee camps in Jordan which does not grant any of their decendents who were born there city rights. Jewish people were dispelled from their homes and found a new home in Israel.

So, Israel as a state is the only guarantee in the world for safety and survival for the Jewish people. If you know any Jewish people in Europe, you will often hear their discussions and plans of going to Israel. The state exists, and it will continue to exist and thrive. To debate its right to an existence is politically pointless because it was granted by the UN and other leading political organisations, and antisemitic because it’s a direct call against the safety of Jews everywhere. Palestine wasn’t a state in the beginning at first and to this day has a special political status. In the 1940-1960s, a lot of Palestinians didn’t even want to be called Palestinians and the leading politicians in fact called for Palestine to be reunited with Syria, calling them Syrians. In 2005, Israel granted Gaza’s wishes and completely unrooted all Jewish life in the Gaza strip, making it free of living Jews for the first time in millenias. Unsurprisingly, peace did not follow.

Phew. I left out about a thousand details around here, so please use these points as a starting point for your research and take it with a grain of salt.

The conflict between Israel and Palestine to this day exists because Palestine does not acknowledge Israel’s right to exist and uses acts of terrorism and war against the state. Beginning of May, Gaza fired way over 600 rockets on Israel, aiming at schools and civilian buildings, killing 4 and injuring over 300 people. Their leading political organisation, Hamas, calls for the complete destruction of Israel and their people. They also refer to Israel as an oppressing state and an occupation of their territory.

One of the organisations that also believes Israel to be an occupator is the BDS organisation, which is a Boycott against Israel. It claims to be peaceful and harmless, but aims to completely isolate Israel in every way, culturally, economically, politically, from the rest of the world. They also want Palestinian refugees in Gaza and Westbank to have a right to return to Israel. However, given that Israel has a population of about 15 million people, and 20% of them are not Jewish, integrating about 8 million people of non-jewish Arabs into Israel would make Jews a minority in Israel and effectively end the existence of the only Jewish state in the world. (also good luck boycotting Israeli technology like the world's most efficient field hospital, the USB stick, and just about every smartphone works with Israeli technology.)

BDS called for a boycott of the ESC in Israel, Roger Waters himself foamed at the mouth when Madonna was announced to perform in Tel Aviv. One band that is at least close to the BDS is Hatari, the Icelandic group. They announced their intentions to use their performance to criticise Israel for the way they treat Palestinians.There was debate in Israel apparently whether they should be allowed to come to Tel Aviv, in the end they were allowed. They returned the favour by showing the flag of their biggest aggressor and threat to safety.

Funnily enough, homosexuality is punishable by imprisonment and death in Gaza. So I can’t help but wonder how well their support was received in Palestine… It’s a typically European knee-jerk reaction. They want to show solidarity with what they think is the underdog in that conflict, and they’re cowardly showing their protest in a democractic, safe country.

Madonna’s performance is problematic because she agreed to do a non-political act and proceeded to slap the flags on their dancers at the very last second, betraying the trust and rules of the hosts. Her act shows a big, scary man dressed like a soldier in a black uniform as Israel and a tiny woman in a white dress as Palestine, and in the beginning she talks about supposedly hidden crimes that ‘we all know of’ wink-wonk. It’s a tired provocatin and villainification of Israel imo. The reactions all over social media show that it was not actually perceived as a message of peace and love, but as a message of pro-Palestinian interests, painting them the victims and only the victims of the conflict.

There was probably more going on with political statements in the ESC, but you referred to Jewish history and Israel, so I hope your questions are covered with this response!