#hence why people always point out how this is a shitty outlier

[jasontoddenthusiastt]

BFTC isn’t really a case of terrible characterization for Jason so much as it was a terrible case of victim blaming. Like yeah, some of the things Jason did were a bit extreme compared to his “better” appearances, but that’s nothing new and pretty much true of many stories that aren’t utrh or lost days. The bad parts are are also definitely exaggerated by fans.

The story isn’t centered on Jason. Of course every other character’s description of Jason would be knee-jerk dismissive and misunderstanding, since (again) the intention was to make Jason out to be the cartoony bad guy villain. But if you look past the layers of grime they added, the bare bones of his characterization are not entirely incorrect. It’s a biased story in which their intended criticisms of Jason’s morals often fell short, so to compensate they deliberately cranked up his motivations to be more extreme and unrealistic (but one which, nonetheless got Jason’s overall thoughts and goals relatively consistent with stories that portrayed him accurately).

Yes, him shooting Damian was out of character, but granted we’re all in agreement that it was a true case of “bad writing decision”, I don’t think it’s hard to look past. The only other bit people probably complain about (which felt iffy at worst) was him being “a bit enthusiastic” at times in trying to convince Dick to become another lethal Batman (you can just as easily say Jason wouldn’t have been personally invested enough to have acted in the way he did). I don’t care though because he was probably doing it for shits and giggles, and it was funny watching him push their buttons on his spare time while being excellent at his job. Same old ‘none of them deny that he’s effective, they just can’t get behind the killing’ conflict.

Looking past the fact that Jason still had a valid point, the “he’s the bad guy” plot falls apart for other obvious reasons, which happen in the 3rd issue. It’s kind of hard to focus on how much of a bitch Jason’s being when the other characters are written in an infinitely more problematic way (which ends up happening in most “hate Jason” stories). Not only did they heavily imply Jason is a victim of SA, but the way Dick/the batfamily treats Jason about this is … horrible. Arguing that this was a case of character assassination for Bruce and Dick would be more realistic than using this story to claim Jason is a Bad Person™.

Even though Bruce does have a bad track record with his perspective on victims of SA.

Hey. Maybe listen to the living person begging you to turn it off.

Geez. I wonder why he never felt safe enough to confide in Bruce or any of the rest of them. Implying that enduring what he did made him “broken beyond repair”, that he needs to be “fixed”, and saying verbatim, “you are my greatest failure”, not “I failed you greatly”. Then deciding on behalf of Jason that a bunch of people who weren’t involved in what happened to him should all know about this so they can decide what should be done. And everyone agrees with this garbage. Unbelievable.

Aka, any sort of healing he may have tried to accomplish was ruined by you lot. When exactly am I supposed to see that Jason was evil all along.

The story collapses in on itself in the third issue because where Dick is supposed to be at his prime within the arc, he just sort of rambles about how Jason was a shitty victim and then awkwardly shifts to talking about personal growth and coming to accept his own heroic destiny.

I do resent this, but not because “Jason sucks here”. Jason’s “bad portrayal” pales in comparison to the problematic mindsets given to the other characters (namely Dick) which were framed as good-natured intentions and “tough love”. As for people who describe this as “vilifying Jason to prop up Dick” … I don’t really know what to make of that.

[sonfaro]

@you-me-and-the-force-between-us Thank you for your rebuttal.  My response will be similarly long, and tumblr is being annoying so I’m switching to a new thread.

“Normal behavior isn’t always guaranteed by everyone. That’s life. Of course there are always going to be outliers of people who don’t think as they should. But they’re small compared to the number of people who CAN make these differences, so making comparisons like these are not only hurtful, but useless. It doesn’t matter WHAT language you use, somewhere out there–is going to fan over a serial killer or want to become one, because it’s not about language, it’s about personal experiences.” It DOES matter to those who are left behind.  To those who’s people are routinely NOT treated in this way.  Infantilizing dangerous white men at any level of media sets a tone.  To see that kind of behavior follow into fiction and NOBODY have a problem with it is beyond bizarre to me.  I’ve had friends locked up for far less who never got treated like the children they were, so forgive me if I’m a little sensitive to the subject. “People who sympathisize with these types of people are either going through some sort of fucked up, I’m edgy 100%, phase that they’ll grow out of or have some serious mental instabilities. It isn’t the media’s job to walk on egg shells with language,“ It’s the media’s job to present the truth with no spin.  When they do things like this, it absolutely poisons the well.  There’s no one to blame for his crimes but the monster, but there are people to blame for how that monster is viewed by the masses. “This other rhetoric about what’s being said and how it compares to fiction–it’s bullshit. And let’s be honest here for a second–just honestly speaking–looking through OP’s page you can very damn well tell this post isn’t done with good intentions in mind; it’s a clear attack on a group of people under the facet of being a good citizen who truly cares. Which also pisses me off.“ In what way?  I’ve literally seen someone claim that Kylo is ‘young’ and ‘doesn’t know any better’. That sort of language does exist amongst the fandom. “(I’ve seen people call others abelist for using the word crazy on this hellsite, but idc either way) “ You’re sympathizing with the villain is all.  Which is fine, “ Clearly it isn’t??? Because that’s OP’s point. That’s what OP has a problem with, saying that we’re like criminal sympathizers because we sympathize with a villain–so YES I agree, I’m JUST sympathizing with a villain IS ALL, nothing more. That’s the point.“ OP’s point is about the language being used: the infantilizing and woobifying.  I can sympathize with Erik Killmonger, but know he’s a grown man and his end in Black Panther is justified.  I’m not going to say “He’s basically a teenager lashing out” or nonsense like that - which IS a thing that Kylo stans have said. “ALSO JUST SO EVERYONE’S AWARE. This ISN’T the media saying this.“ Matt O’Donnell, listed below the lawyer in OP’s post, is a reporter.  He lists the killer’s status as an orphan (with no reason), his young age (with no reason), and suggests he had a ‘troubled’ background.  These are softening social cues. And the media doesn’t have to make these quotes the headline.  It is they who present these quotes as a worthy title for an article. “Darth Vader is one of THEE most popular villains of all time, and most people ADORE baby-fying him.” Not canon Darth Vader they don’t.  If you want an Alt universe Kylo (like Emo Kylo Ren) it’s whatever.  That's a separate idea. “He was Kylo BEFORE KYLO EXISTED–he’s WORSE than Kylo–so where’s all the hate there?“ I disagree.  Vader was a tool for the Emperor.  Kylo IS the Emperor now.  And the hate is largely gone because in canon Vader died sacrificing himself for the hero.  “Why isn’t the majority of the world turned into serial killer supporters by now?  A. The majority of the world isn’t into star wars.  We’re a big fandom, but the world is bigger B. and the majority of Vader’s fans don’t try to justify his actions.  He’s liked because he makes a great foil for our heroes. Why isn’t OP making a comparison to Darth Vader and attacking his fans? Again, Vader’s fans generally don’t make excuses for his actions. Because OP has an agenda to attack Reylos and make them seem like horrible people, because that’s just the way the shit rolls on Tumblr nowadays.  Agreed, he definitely does. “[...]Committing a crime due to violent media, is far less easy to prove, and there has been no direct connection thus far.“ Right, but your post flat said “It isn’t true”, and that has not yet been determined.  Hence my post. “All of these still prove my point–media alone does NOT transform you into a violent person UNLESS you already have a predisposition to being violent (like a history of abuse or a mental illness etc). It ISN’T true until you have enough statistics that back up your claim, and this doesn’t. What’s unhelpful, is not being well researched in a matter and making blatant claims. “ But I didn’t make a blatant claim about video games.  I literally said the jury was still out.  In response to you flat saying it wasn’t true.  -_- “The media compares Hux and FO to Nazism because there’s a legitimate comparison to make (I know some SW fans disagree with me, but there is blatant Nazism parallels imo), because that was done PURPOSEFULLY. They took one evil regime irl and were inspired by it to create a fictional one of it. Every writer and design EVER takes inspiration form real life things to create something, eve villains. But let’s give an example here of a rational comparison and a shitty one:- Hux is like a Nazi (this can be confirmed by the imagery in SW, and background information, etc)  - Hux is like a Nazi and therefore if you like Hux you like the Nazi party and therefore you’re a Nazi apologist. Hux is a Nazi and you’re a Nazi apologist.“ This is a bit of a straw man.  You’d only be a Nazi apologist if you thought Hux’s POV were correct.  Once more, liking a villain is fine - liking them to the point where your sympathy leads you to defend their views and actions is another thing entirely. “Saying that someone who likes Hux or the FO is like someone who might have agreed/sympathized with the deaths of millions of people is a HORRIBLE, inaccurate comparison to make (also Hux is LIKE a Nazi and Hux IS a Nazi are two different things, “ Again, that’s not what’s happening here.  OP is talking about a specific action (how shippers talk about Kylo). Not liking the character in general. “And if you’re going to make the point that forcing yourself into someone’s mind is akin to rape, and therefore Kylo’s a rapist (and therefore Reylos are rape apologists–no lie i hear this shit WAY TOO much) then guess what?Obi-Wan is a rapist.Vader is a rapist.LUKE is a rapist.”  I mean Vader definitely attempted to force himself into his daughters mind in ANH.  Dude was the villain.  The jedi mindtrick is more deception than anything else - morally suspect but not a painful violation unless there are more than one person doing it at the same time.  Which is the actual term Pablo Hidalgo prefers for what Kylo does to Rey in that scene - a violation. “She (or he idk and idc tbh) is basically insinuating that Kylo Ren sympathizers cause school shooters sympathizers.“ Or vice versa, that the media and how damaged white monsters are portrayed is the reason Reylo’s see Kylo as sympathetic.  Which was what OP’s excuse was IIRC.  Personally I think the fault for both lies more with societies internal preference for white dudes, but that’s my take. ���//Also–just for future notice–I don’t suggest ever using a Buzzfeed article to support your claim because your credibility will go right out the window. Buzzfeed is a pandering shitfest that is really written more by biased bloggers than actual reporters. I suggest using articles without bias and an actual good writing team and reputation.//“ I mean at this point that’s every news organization ever - least in America as far as I can tell.  You can barely open a paper or watch the news without someone's opinion’s being clear.  And it’s hardly the only article: https://www.salon.com/2016/01/12/we_need_to_talk_about_ben_kylo_ren_star_wars_and_the_media_narrative_of_the_mentally_ill_school_shooter/ https://www.theverge.com/2016/1/1/10698090/emo-kylo-ren-star-wars-parody-twitter http://www.forcematerial.com/home/2017/11/5/we-need-to-talk-about-kylo https://geekmom.com/2016/01/trying-not-to-raise-kylo-ren/ Kylo being compared to real world evil isn’t new.  Shoot, there’s a bunch that link Kylo to the alt-right as well.  Double shoot, Adam Driver himself straight compared him to terrorists.  Kylo gets compared to lots of real world evil people.  It’s going to happen. “Yup that’s definitely what happened. It wasn’t like he literally saw Luke about to kill him in his sleep“ No, he LITERALLY saw Luke post realization that he was in the wrong but still holding his lightsaber (like an idiot) and jumped to the conclusion his uncle was going to attack him.  Luke’s behavior (which is a character assassination if I’ve ever seen one, but that’s an argument for another time) also happens only after peering into Ben’s mind and seeing nothing but evil.  Ben then definitely attacks his uncle after that - from his point of view in self defence, sure - but from the overhead view an unnecessarily. “Oh no–wait, I was wrong:“ ...the article LITERALLY lists him murdering the kids.  -_- “Oh so I guess it’s like I said before–people PICK AND CHOOSE their biases!! There is a UNMISTAKABLE comparison between Vader and Kylo FOR A REASON–the two ARE very much alike. But Kylo is a shooter and Vader’s tragic and grand?? GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE WITH THIS BULLSHIT.“ Uh, yeah.  Vaders complete arc requires six movies at two hours at least each to tell.  It’s pretty grand (lofty, big, etc).  His heel turn alone is a culmination of three whole films.  Also, the article presents Kylo as tragic as well, with Drivers portrayal being described as:  “a mixture of pain and hurt so raw it threatens to rend the fabric of the series every time he's on screen“.  Did you actually read it? “really made me want to pluck my eyes out. Holy hell my dude, why did you use this as a reference when it’s so clearly just—bad?? I think I lost five years of my life.“ Because it’s another example of Kylo being compared to the evil that is a school shooter.  Again, it’s not the only time, and it’s not the only horrible evil he’s compared to.  OP was insensitive about it though, given recent events. “And I want to make this clear–I don’t give a single FUCK if you don’t like Kylo Ren. That your opinion.“ I like his character a lot actually.  I think he makes an excellent, compelling villain based on Adam Driver’s work.  My issue is people attempting to pretend he isn’t one, or that his past trauma absolves him of ANYTHING he’s chosen to do, or that anyone owes him anything at this point, or pretending that this 30 year old man’s childishness can be justified at all.  My bigger concern is that sort of thing happens in the real world for folks just like Kylo and that the two often sound exactly the same. “ I CARE when you bring real people into stupid fictional shit and say “You’re the reason why this is happening. It’s YOUR fault things are this way” I don’t think that was OP’s point at all.  Least as far as he’s said. “ESPECIALLY when fiction is used right after a real tragedy like this. “ THAT I can agree with.  Dude was insensitive. “ It’s disgusting to be compared on ANY level with someone who might do something like this–and again–it isn’t true. “ No one compared you guys to the shooter.  How you TALK about the villain was compared. “ Read up on mental illness, debate gun control, read up on what actually causes school shooters to occur, look up psychological studies of BOTH sides, not just what Buzzfeed says–they aren’t accredited to make those calls in any way.“ The article I listed didn’t list the causes of school shooting at all.  Did you just skim it? “STOP accepting this shit behavior my dude. It ISN’T OK or educated AT ALL. It’s downright stupid.“ The behavior I don’t accept.  The point - that dangerous young white men are coddled both in and out of fiction - is all too true though.