#i also agree arwen doesn’t deserve this but in the sense that this is very cool

[imakemywings]

Hello! As a self-described Sindar stan, I was wondering if you have any thoughts on Thingol’s decision to demand a Silmaril from Beren? I agree that Thingol is often more maligned by the fandom than he deserves, but this is the one action of his I simply can’t get over. Not only is he basically sentencing Beren to death, and treating his own daughter like an object to be bartered for, but also… diplomatically, it’s an OUTRAGEOUSLY stupid move imo. Yes, Thingol has absolutely no reason to play nice with the Fëanorians considering the Kinslaying at Alqualondë; but even so, what a breathtakingly insulting slap in the face, to demand one of the jewels their father made and their grandfather was murdered for as some kind of fucked-up bride-price!

Although his later refusal to give the Fëanorians the Silmaril is understandable at least, given how C&C treated Lúthien, I still think this initial move of Thingol’s was SO stupid and unnecessarily aggressive. Genuinely intrigued whether you have any defence you can make for it, because it baffles me. (And I hope this ask doesn’t come across as mean or aggressive, it wasn’t meant that way at all! ❤️)

Not aggressive at all! I'm not going to argue it was a great move (nor will I ever try to argue Thingol never fucked up, because he definitely did, and his pride gets the better of him on several occasions).

However, unfortunately, bride-prices were very much a thing in ages gone by, and Thingol is not the only father in Tolkien's work to demand one--most notably, Elrond puts the price of Arwen's hand on Aragorn reclaiming the crown of Gondor, something that must have felt like an impossible task when it was given. So I would, with effort, set aside our modern discomfort with the very notion of bride-prices and dowries, which were at one time normal and expected, to focus on the content of that demand.

Truthfully, I don't think Thingol ever expected to get the Silmaril. He gave Beren a task which he believed was impossible, so that Beren would either give up, or die trying. In that sense, I don't think it was ever really about the symbol, but to give Beren was was so obviously a task he could never succeed at, so that Beren would understand that Thingol would never approve of his desire for Luthien, nor consent to their marriage. It wasn't Thingol's way of trying to get his hands on a Silmaril--it was his way of telling Beren to fuck off.

I don't think he cared at that point if Beren died in the effort. The language both in Silm proper and in Lay of Leithian suggests Thingol and many others in Doriath thought Luthien was under some temporary madness, and Thingol believed Beren was taking advantage of her. He was totally wrong about that, but briefly you can imagine how you would feel if some rando mortal wandering around the woods was trying to take advantage of your daughter. If he had listened to Luthien, he might have seen the truth, but unfortunately he chose to act on his first take on the situation and brush off Luthien's defense.

There's also the fact that he loves his daughter, and by accepting her marriage to a mortal, he is necessarily accepting the very significant chance that his immortal child will die because of this. Elves can and do die of grief, and even if Luthien had not become mortal, Beren's eventual inevitable death might have been her end as well. It was undoubtedly selfish of him to put his own interest in keeping Luthien around over Luthien's expressed desires, but you can perhaps see how as a parent, he panicked and tried to put a nix on the whole thing. He believed he was doing the right thing by separating her from Beren, but he would've realized that was a mistake if he had genuinely listened to what she had to say (also, he might have seen that her and Beren's relationship is very similar to his and Melian's).

But Thingol's downfall repeatedly is that he lets his pride and his temper get the better of him and he refuses to listen to those around him (Luthien, Melian, etc.) When he later calms down and realizes he's made a mistake, he usually does a mea culpa and changes his opinion, but at that point, there's usually been some damage.

We see this with Beren and Luthien--when they return, Thingol changes his view on Beren and on their relationship, and even seats Beren at the left hand of the king. Furthermore, when they go out hunting Carcaroth, Thingol's primary concern is for Beren's safety, knowing now what he means to Luthien. Additionally, his view on Men in general warms quite a bit, to the point where he takes Turin in as his foster-son--the only time an Elf lord ever fosters a mortal. However, that doesn't change that Beren and Luthien put themselves in enormous danger trying to accomplish the task Thingol had set for them, and if Luthien had died trying to get that Silmaril, I don't see how Thingol could have ever forgiven himself for it (and if Beren had died and not been saved, I'm not sure Luthien would have forgiven him either).

So yeah, I don't think the Feanorians played into Thingol's request even the slightest bit; this was about him and Beren and Luthien. But yes, once he had it, the Feanorians really gave him no reason to want to hand it over, given what they did to his daughter (and the fact that Maedhros, leader of the Feanorians, never punishes or reprimands Celegorm and Curufin for their actions, which amounts to tacit approval).

In short: Yeah it was a bad move, but more because it shows how little he was listening to Luthien and how little he understood her relationship with Beren, rather than simply because it was a bride-price or because it was a Silmaril.

[hamelin-born]

Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar

Today has been a good day. I have managed to get my hands on not only The Book of Lost Tales but also Morgoth’s Ring. Specifically, the section entitled ‘Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar’. Which has sparked various thoughts regarding mine and @elenothar​ ‘s ongoing Lord of the Rings/Fantastic Beasts and Where To Find Them worldbuild. See below for some of my musings!

Canonically, Eluréd and Elurín were six or seven years old when the Second Kinslaying descended upon Dorianth. However, it is also canonical that elvish children mature at a vastly slower rate then do humans; assuming that the twin followed elvish developmental patterns (they did have human ancestry), they might have had the physical appearance of three to four year old children. Little more then toddlers. That - really puts it into perspective. Tolkien also states that Eldar mentally mature at a much faster rate then do humans, but trauma and mental and physical shock could have induced psychogenic amnesia. (My knowledge of psychogenic amnesia is strictly obtained from wiki, so there is every possibility that I might be wrong).

Newt and Theseus would have been children. They might have seen their parents die; they would have been taken from all that was familiar and driven into the wilderness to die of cold and hunger. They would have had nothing left but each other - Graves tries not to think about it. Newt and Theseus have spent literally years trying not to think about it; their earliest recollections - of fear and hunger and darkness - are not particularly pleasant ones. The twins have - mixed feelings about their lack of memories of what transpired before. Prior to the revelation of their heritage, the temptation of knowing their true backgrounds was a factor - but. But even if it had been a possibility, they weren’t sure if they wanted to know who they were before the gap in their memories. The twins had foster-parents that they loved among both humans and the avari; they know who they are. They like who they are. 

Despite it not being strictly necessary, apparently there are uniquely elvish wedding traditions. ...Newt, for one, wouldn’t care about a traditional ceremony. Percival, on the other hand - well, he might not particularly mind either (Graves is practical; it’s one of his defining characteristics) but he might also feel that Newt deserves every courtesy and honor that he can bestow. Namely, a year-long betrothal, as jointly agreed upon/announced by the families of the spouses-to-be, and the exchange of silver rings - which are later swapped for gold in the actual ceremony.

...Newt’s only known family (at that time) is Theseus; Graves, on the other hand, doesn’t have any blood kin remaining; however, the House of Elrond has always regarded him as both a longstanding ally and family in some vague, undefined way. (He’s been a constant of their respective childhoods, served and watched and guarded them all these years...) As such, Graves goes to the only member of Elrond’s family he admires for their practicality, fellow-feeling, and capability not to spread around the news that he’s getting married.

...which means that the marriage is formally agreed upon approved by Theseus and Arwen. The latter is delighted. The former somewhat less so. (His brother! His little brother is getting married! Newt politely asks one of the wolves-not-wargs-why-would-you-think-they’re-wargs? to sit on him until he calms down) Newt thinks this is all very silly, but it makes Percy happy, so why not? 

A marriage feast followed by the actual ceremony is also traditional; in this case, the ‘feast’ in question was a picnic in the middle of Mirkwood forest, and the ceremony was officiated by Radagast instead of the parents of the spouses - considering that none of said parents were actually living, and getting the knot tied by a Maia is definitely something. Apparently, it’s tradition among the Noldor for the parents to give their new offspring-in-law a ‘jewel upon a chain or collar’; Arwen, acting on Graves’ behalf, might give Newt a pretty necklace or something.

...of course, none of the above is strictly necessary considering that apparently it’s the wedding night that is the actual act of marriage, with everything else being ceremonial and not really needed. I’m choosing to believe that there’s some kind of mutual intent needed between the parties in question to forge said marriage. Or is casual sex just - not a thing among elves?

With regards to Gondolin - I wonder what House Graves belonged to? I’m tempted to say he was a guard/soldier in the House of the King, considering his canonical rank in MACUSA - the seat of power. Individuals in said house consisted of “the King's family and bodyguard.“ Then again, he could be a member of the House of the Wing - “The bodyguard of Tuor, and the smallest house.” If Graves was a member of either House - that could also be one reason why he sticks close to the descendants of Turgon/Tuor (in addition to his sense of duty); they’re basically the only semi-family he has left.

...I’m actually pretty sure he was a member of the House of the Wing, seeing as how The Book of Lost Tales states that the member of the House of the King basically stayed with Turgon to the last and died alongside him. Also, there’s a pretty good likelihood that the House of the Wing might have had one of the highest survival rates of the various populations in Gondolin - considering how they basically followed Tuor, and how Tuor was the one who led the evacuation.

“Mighty was the array of the house of the king and their colors were white and gold and red, and their emblems the moon and the sun and the scarlet heart...” That’s the House of the King. The House of the Wing - “All these wore wings as it were of swans or gulls upon their helms, and the emblem of the White Wing was upon their shields.” I wonder if Graves has any physical remembrances - any tokens, or badges of office, or anything from that time?

Just - Graves. Graves, looking out over the walls of Gondolin during what was supposed to be a holiday, and seeing the plains teaming with dragons and fire-serpents, orcs and balrogs. Being there when the northern gate fell and the orcs poured into the city, killing everyone in their path. He saw the House of the Hammer of Wrath die to a man; he might even have seen Ecthelion slay Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs. He ran with the rest of the survivors across the plains, in that last desperate rush - and there’s a strong likelihood that he witnessed Glorfindel’s last stand.

Also - @elenothar​ , remember how we talked about just how many elves survived the Fall of Gondolin? The Book of Lost Tales says that 580 survived to resettle at the Mouths of Sirion. I looked up some speculation online - apparently, Gondolin was able to field an army at least 10,000 strong in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, meaning the city had - about 30,000 people, maybe?

...meaning about 2% of the population of Gondolin managed to escape.

...Graves can sympathize with Newt to a rather large extent regarding his spouse’s disinclination to listen or sing about his family. Graves was present at some of the events that elves love to sing about - the fall of Gondolin, the battles of Ecthelion and Glorfindel, the death of the House of the Hammer - they’re not good memories.