#i'm p sure most people see me and are just like ew what a fucking loser

[lizzybeth1986]

What are your overall thoughts on Madeleine as a character including what transpired between her and Hana? I've felt iffy about her, but I'm not sure how to phrase that. I think you can better articulate and explain than I could 😅

Not to boast…but you’ve come to the right person (besides @callmetippytumbles who has made excellent points time and again about how the writing centers Madeleine in ways that they should have been centering Hana). I have written A LOT about that issue especially. Here are some of my meta on that if you’re interested:

Brushed Under the Carpet: Madeleine as an Alternate LI (this was written after TRR Book 3 Chapter 9, where they were subtly hinting at making them a ship).

QT on Book 3 Chapter 16 (Tbh thankfully the bit I was predicting here - Madeleine getting the coming out story that should have been Hana’s - wound up not happening, though part of it could have been from them having to scrap the entire idea after the backlash).

How Do You Fix Hana’s Characterization in TRR? (this essay listed a whole set of changes both to help strengthen Hana’s storyline and to give her the attention and validation she deserved but didn’t get in the actual story)

This replay to an ask posted after 3 of the 4 writers on the team claimed Hana was the kind of person they would marry.

A lot of this illustrates my problems with Madeleine on a level of characterization (and Tippy covers the aspects that deal not with Hana, but with Madeleine's half-baked redemption arc and how the narrative tries really hard to convince us that she does her job well, even when she isn’t doing it properly).

With regards to Madeleine herself, I feel like they started out fully intending that the reader hate her and view her as a rival, before turning the tables and establishing her as “innocent” of the conspiracy (though still extremely unlikeable). In narrative structure, the bachelorette chapter had a lot of striking similarities to the Lythikos chapter where you found out about Olivia’s painful childhood before she mocked Drake about his missing sister. I feel like the aim was to make us see Madeleine in a different light, while still remembering why we dislike her.

Somewhere along the line (with Hana’s chocolate scene) they went too far, and Madeleine went from unlikeable to completely repulsive. After that, the team attempted to completely backtrack, by cramming in a sympathy arc for her and after the “hazing process” excuse, what she did to Hana especially was never addressed again. Suddenly she was the patriot who would sacrifice her life and happiness for Cordonia, a figure to be admired and pitied. A woman who was immensely talented and did her job well [even when she actually didn’t]). Most of her characterization, really, consists of retconning.

But I have no interest in Madeleine, or her characterization. I just don’t. No, what I’m going to touch upon today is narrative treatment.

–

Rival figures are important in a story. They’re a foil to the main character: sometimes they exist simply to make the MC look better (ew), sometimes they’re there to show the MC what the larger society in their world is like, and what challenges they may face, and sometimes they’re an unexpected ally after the MC figures out the problem goes way deeper than the rivalry with them. So if you have a rival who behaves badly, treats the people around her badly? That in itself is not really a bad thing.

It makes me hurt for the characters at the receiving end, but as long as long as the narrative validates their experience on its own initiative, and allows them space, I will be fine. If I’m shown bullying and abuse in a narrative towards a character, I’m going to want to see the person hurting from this:

1. have support. Immense support

2. have a friend circle that will protect them and put them first

3. have opportunities to talk about what this is doing to them

4. have opportunities to push back against the bully

Personally the bully’s journey or whatever is of no importance to me. I simply don’t care. As much as possible I would not care about what grand monumental realizations they get behind the scenes, or what their rotten-egg-smelling guilt looks like. What matters to me is the person bullied. I need to see them win. I need to see them thrive. I need to see them receive support and validation.

One example I can give in terms of that being done well, is Penelope. Penelope is treated like a servant by Madeleine, called names, forever reminded she is good-for-nothing and useless and can’t do anything right. The bullying is constant and puts an already anxiety-ridden Penelope under additional pressure, to the point that when we meet her at Portavira in Book 3 she is VERY reluctant to return to court, and panics when certain things remind her of Madeleine’s behaviour. You have to coddle and cajole her with promises that Madeleine would never be able to do anything to her, and that she can bring her Emotional Support Animals with her to court. If we choose not to address her concerns, our friends will do it on our behalf. Drake Trauma-Minimizing Walker himself, is shown reassuring her the moment they meet in Portavira:

So it is very possible, even if the rival/bitchy character is expected to not feel remorse, and still retains a huge portion of her bitchiness, that we can still get a satisfying arc where the person in pain has support and care, and can thrive.

In Penelope’s case, perhaps the only downside may be that, while the narrative is clear about Madeleine’s bullying and its impact on Penelope, it still keeps Madeleine comfortably away from this narrative so she doesn’t even have to engage with it. She herself doesn’t exactly face consequences. The truth doesn’t even touch her.

But we don’t feel the pinch of this, so much with Penelope… precisely because PENELOPE is validated, given support and is given the space to completely refuse to even go with them if the MC doesn’t make great efforts to support and be nice to her (this, even though she has herself harmed us). She is allowed to get upset if we even question her on not following the dress code of our bachelorette, because it reminds her of Madeleine’s. She is even “rewarded” with a guy, no matter which playthrough.

And not every character is going to be a Penelope who will require that level of coddling from other people. So it’s not always about the MC and others needing to constantly protect and reassure such people. Sometimes it’s just simply about whether said character is allowed to push back against the bully. Hana gets a small measure of this when she’s allowed (but only on one occasion, that too a 30 diamond scene that wasn’t even coded properly later) to tell Olivia exactly what she thinks of her (and Olivia is allowed to say shit about her even after that, without Hana ever being allowed the same space again).

Now the thing with Hana (with regards to Madeleine) is…that they could have easily given her space to push back. Easily given the MC opportunities to protect her. Easily ensured that Hana didn’t have to engage with Madeleine if she didn’t want to. Have her whack friends fucking remember what she was put through at least!!!

Let’s go through how that could have been done one by one:

Pushing Back: One of the most bizarre choices the TRR team made was the give the scene about Liam telling Hana he would get her back to court (ergo, that Hana returned through Liam’s help, not Madeleine as the latter kept claiming) to Drake! He gets to narrate this story to the MC, but Hana herself is never allowed to acknowledge the fact or even talk about it. If she were, she would have at least (at the very least!!!) been given chances to hint at Madeleine twisting the truth, implied as much to Madeleine or to the MC, pushed back in her own unique way. The narrative not only pushes the truth of her return in DRAKE’S scene…it also never gives HER the opportunity to do anything actively against Madeleine’s very obvious twisting of the truth. Just so that Madeleine would continue to have way more power over Hana throughout. The bullying occurs much before the incident in Italy, but Hana herself is expected to stay silent.

Support: Now it’s not as if Penelope gets to push back on her own to Madeleine during this time either (except for a few comments here and there). But Penelope does get plenty of support and eventually protection. Does this apply to Hana as well?

Technically, you could view the fondue party scene that took place after the “chocolate allergy” incident as “support” - but at best it’s very weak “support”, and at its worst it really just a scene revolves around all the other characters (especially around gaining Olivia’s friendship), with a hurt, frightened Hana hovering in the background of the scene.

The MC has the option (option!!) to “call Madeleine out” on the events of the previous night when they’re in Paris, but it mostly results in Madeleine pretending it was a test of some sort (which the MC never bothers to contradict even though she knows better). The best case scenario is, well, that…and the worst case scenario is that Hana never really finds out even that, up until the end.

Speaking Out and Validation: Not only does the narrative not address the bullying after it has happened (until the very end of the series), it uses Hana - the woman who was harmed - to minimize its impact as well. On the one occasion you actually do get to talk to her about the night of Madeleine’s bachelorette party, they make Hana say (if you state that you don’t remember anything from that night), that "the tequila brought out Kiara's mean side, and Madeleine's fun side". Madeleine’s “fun side”, presumably, involves her laughing over targeting, torturing and breaking the vulnerable women in her court I suppose. (also, way to do Kiara dirty while forgetting what Madeleine did, PB!)

Further ahead, the MC and her friends promptly forget about this - Hana is expected to help the MC extract important information from her without even bothering to find out if she is comfortable or not, for instance. The forgetfulness gets to the point where, in the epilogue, (when Madeleine repeats to Hana what she’d told the MC back then) the MC acts like it is the first time she is hearing about Madeleine’s intentions to break Hana.

So forget about getting validation, for a large chunk of the narrative Hana wasn’t even allowed to view her own experience with bullying as painful. And if anything, her friend circle didn’t mind putting her needs and comfort last when it suited them.

The biggest problem about the storyline that involves Hana and Madeleine is the question of who should be getting more space and development, and who actually does. The time and energy spent on Hana navigating a court like this which such threats over her head…is spent instead on literally everything else. The time that could have been spent working on Hana’s background and childhood history…was spent to build Madeleine’s redemption arc instead (ironically, Adelaide starts feeding us with that sympathy arc in Shanghai, Hana’s home).

Effort was spent on extolling Madeleine efficiency and great work, even though there was very little of it to be seen. Effort was spent on making Madeleine look patriotic and not power-hungry, in making it clear to us that her father’s rejections left an impact on her. Even the story involving her attraction to Hana revolved more around HER, not around the woman she hurt. Was the same effort put into exploring Hana’s own struggle in court? In how she feels when people hurt her? In whether she is comfortable doing certain things? I think we all know the answer to that.

The key to why I hate Madeleine’s story so much isn’t that she’s a horrible person. You can be a horrible person and still have a compelling story. You can be a horrible person, and unapologetic about it, but still have the narrative validate what the people you had harmed went through.

It’s that the narrative and team knows and acknowledges her toxic behaviour, but only for a character that they like. They conveniently decided to cherry pick who would be comforted and given reassurance, and who would be forced to praise her bully for her ‘patriotism’. I should have been spending way less time on Madeleine’s redemption and coddling Penelope, and more time on making Hana feel safe in a largely alien place where she has no one but us - and where she is staying only for our protection. My problem is that they didn’t consider Hana’s pain important enough to even address, much less validate.

[haltandcatchfiretothemax]

Okay so I'm doing a s1 rewatch and gonna talk to you about it because why not. I kind of didn't get into the show until s2 and sort of just skimmed through s1. So rewatching it, in 1x07 is it just me or is the whole Joe electrocuting himself to turn Cameron on (?!) both absolutely ridculous and like... super gross? Joe is what like 15? years older than Cameron who is what, 20 here? Ew? A woman supposedly wrote this episode but I bet a man wrote that bit. It's so very Male Bullshit™

CON’T: In fact all of Joe in season 1 (and lets face it all seasons?) is kind of Male Bullshit. But especially in season 1. Because like, canon Cameron is clearly a fucking mess who's vulnerable to his bullshit. But also some part of me feels like Real Cameron who didn't really come into existence until season 2... would not rly have been into him :P I can't fully grasp if she's meant to rly like him or if she's just with him for lack of other options/being lonely and bored.

A long time ago a fellow gay shipper joked on here/said something to the effect of, ‘remember when he literally had to shock her with a live current because that was the only way he could turn her on?’ If I’m being honest, I still have not recovered from this!

I suppose that whole scene is a matter of taste, for which there’s no real accounting (okay briefly - my official position on it is that some things just don’t work as well onscreen as they might on paper, even with actors like Mack and Lee), but to belatedly speak to your other points: I feel like the most critically productive way to read early H&CF is to view the acknowledged Male Bullshit™ as The Point. It’s not always clear that it’s the point, and that’s because, well, the creators didn’t know how to do what they were trying to do at the beginning! Fortunately, the network set them up with experienced producers who were able to see their vision, for a series about (‘about’) an antihero that’s about more than justifying and begging sympathy for his destructive behavior, and pity for the characters that become his collateral damage. I think, largely based on that pilot spec script that’s been floating around for a while, that the producers understood that the way to do that was to spend more time on the other characters and make it a true ensemble, and to make them smarter (if not sneakier) than the antihero. J*e and his machinations still kind of have to be the engine for the first seasons’ plot, because, well, that’s how the characters are: they’re all stuck, and they need this random, aggressive, (surprisingly genuinely?) sad bastard to push them to act. 

So, yes, there’s a huge age difference between Cameron and J*e, and he definitely scams his way into her college classroom because for his plan to work he needs a 22-year old coder who’s both naïve and a little wild, and who he presumably can manipulate. He absolutely knows what he’s doing, no matter how many people on this website refuse to see his actions clearly, and he largely succeeds at that for most of the season; he’s the main antagonist, and we’re supposed to be wary of him, and put off by all of this. Because, even though a lot of people want to ignore this, too, Cameron is naïve, and also legitimately emotionally compromised (yes, even with that tough front, people contain multitudes, and they can be deceptive), and it works on her. (I’m pretty sure I’ve said this here before, but you can actually see when it starts to work on her, it’s when they’re negotiating her salary, and he says, ‘Now you’re thinking like a professional.’ That gets to her.)

Which isn’t healthy or positive, but it is real. I think ‘like’ is a strong word for how Cameron feels about him, especially in the first half of season 1, but their connection is the real deal, even if it’s largely based on them both being isolated, and having complementary emotional dysfunction based on similar childhood traumas. They’re also drawn to each other’s expertise; Cameron makes her derisive and mostly deserved comments about ‘whatever it is that a product manager does,’ but she recognizes that he can sell and publicly promote an idea in a way that’s useful, and in a way that she can’t and won’t. (She says as much at COMDEX ’90.) 

And for as critical as I’ve been of how that relationship has been handled, I think all of that is pretty clear from the text? But the show doesn’t spell this out or spoon feed it to the viewer, so there is much room for willful/sexist/heteronormative misinterpretation. I don’t think all of the misinterpretation is willful though, people misunderstand power dynamics in relationships and excuse men’s intentional harm irl all the time, because that is sadly the cisheteropatriarchy we all live in.

[macguires]

I'm so late but I sure hope you're still doing that ask meme because if you are I'm giving you Hannibal and Star Wars. Because I know you too well and I know you'd be waiting ;D - tattlecrimc

YESSSSSSS EDEN BLESS U (i’m assuming you mean this one bc that’s the only one i’ve reblogged recently)

i will ramble horribly on the hannibal one and i’m very sorry about it so i’ll leave that for last so i can put it under a read more

i should probably warn u that the only movie fresh in my memory is the force awakens so all of this is gonna be answered through a v tfa-heavy lens but ok

star wars

three favourite male characters: poe dameron, kylo ren & general hux (DON’T KILL ME i know kylo & hux are awful, the fandom paired w/ my pre-existing love for domhnall gleeson did this to me and i am v ashamed). finn, han solo, bodhi rook, cassian andor, chirrut imwe & luke skywalker are also v dear to me. listen i just have a lot of love to givethree favourite female characters: jessika pava (i’d better see So Much of her in ep8), phasma & padme amidala. & also rey! ‘Needs More Girls’ is my opinion on most franchises but especially star warsfavourite pairing(s): finn/poe, kylo/hux, rey/jessika & han/luke! i also like obi-wan/anakin in the sense that i don’t actively go looking for stuff abt it but when i do see it on my dash my heart does a lil “!!”notp(s): r*ylo is like one of the only ships on my blacklist so that probably tells u something. i’m also p Ew about rey with any of the villains, so that also rules out rey/hux & rey/kylo/hux which i see way too often all over the place. also you wouldn’t think snoke/kylo would be a thing but i’ve seen fics & i’ve seen art and i’ve like cried every single time, experiencing that was my tragic backstory and now i’m a jaded & cynical anti-hero who’s seen Too Much™least favourite character: snoke who’s like me: i’ll hesitantly say padme amidala? i saw the prequels when i was too young to be properly interested in them and i haven’t rewatched them yet so 99% of my knowledge is secondhand, but from what i’ve seen she’s the most relatable most attractive: jessika pava tbh, yet another reason behind me hoping she’s around a lot in the next movie, i am Absolutely in love alreadyfavourite moment/scene: THAT’S MY JACKET(also lowkey the whole starkiller/hosnian system scene, that was shot so impressively w/ the whole ~greatcoat blowing dramatically in wind~ and the brief reaction shot of the people on hosnian prime and the lights shooting across the sky and damn)favourite quote(s): LOTS

“so this is how liberty dies. with thunderous applause.” - padme

“if you live long enough, you see the same eyes in different people.” - maz

“mm. lost a planet, master obi-wan has. how embarrassing.” - yoda

“are you kidding me? i’m blind!” - chirrut 

“there’s a problem on the horizon. …there is no horizon.” - k2-so

“so you’re with the resistance?”“obviously. yes, i am. i am with the resistance, yeah. i’m with the resistance.”“i’ve never met a resistance fighter before.”“well, this is what we look like. some of us. others look different.” - rey & finn

“lieutenant, get back to your station!”“just look! we won’t survive. even hux is gone!” - rodinon

“through the ages, i’ve seen evil take many forms: the sith. the empire. today, it is the first order.” - maz

“where is my boyfriend? […] i like that wookiee.” - maz

ok right. now for my favourite thing in the world. the show i don’t shut up about. the universe to which my heart belongs

hannibal

three favourite male characters: will graham, hannibal lecter & anthony dimmondthree favourite female characters: chiyoh, molly graham & reba mcclane (also beverly katz. and freddie lounds. and abigail hobbs. and literally every other girl)favourite pairing(s): hannibal/will, margot/alana, reba/molly, abigail/marissa & jimmy/brian are the ones i pay most attention to, but i’m honestly also down for literally any other f/f ship u can imagine from this shownotp(s): there isn’t anything i would specifically call a notp, but i’m not a huge fan of will/alana or hannibal/alana i guess? just bc as much as i love will & hannibal, alana deserves 1000x better and i lovelovelove her with margot. i also dislike mason with literally anyone for what i would hope are obvious reasons. i also tend to be kinda cringey about abigail with will or hannibal in a romantic/sexual sense bc it’s made very clear that their relationship with her is parent/child and that she’s a teenager so it feels v creepy to meleast favourite character: i like them enough as characters but i’ll say francis dolarhyde & mason verger. bc everything mason does ever makes me feel vaguely ill and my first impression of francis dolarhyde was him stretching and grunting @ his mirror in briefs w/ Glistening Muscles and i was done with That and ready to move on in under 0.00002 seconds but it just….. kept happeningwho’s most like me: peter bernardone, abigail hobbs & s1!will graham most attractive: chiyoh! i was literally Gone from the second we saw her through will’s goddamn binoculars favourite moment/scene: literally every second of dark!will i am so here for that. every moment from when he attacked freddie in the barn and then. u know. ate randall tier with hannibal, the whole ~i’ve given up good & evil for behaviourism~ conversation and the knife exchange in the kitchen. also him bringing randall’s body to hannibal in the middle of the night like some dog looking for approval wtf. and obviously him & hannibal double-teaming & killing francis in the season finale and running the fuck away together and then coming back to eat bedelia like I JUST REALLY LOVE DARK!WILLfavourite quote(s): i have SO MANY. some of them i just think are gorgeous and thought-provoking, some i like for shippy reasons or bc they were super chilling or Ominous on a rewatch/paired with later context, and some i just find straight-up hilarious

hannibal: “i’ve always found the idea of death comforting. the thought that my life could end at any moment frees me to fully appreciate the beauty and art and horror of everything this world has to offer.”

hannibal: “the essence of the worst in the human spirit is not found in the crazy sons-of-bitches. ugliness is found in the faces of the crowd.”  

jack: “you remember when you decided to call hannibal?”will: “i wasn’t decided when i called him. i just called him. i deliberated while the phone rang… i decided when i heard his voice.”jack: “you told him we knew.” will: “i told him to leave, because i wanted him to run.”jack: “why?”will: “because… because he was my friend. and because i wanted to run away with him.” 

hannibal: “you cannot control with respect to whom you fall in love.” 

will: “i’ve never known myself as well as i know myself… when i’m with him.” 

hannibal: “when the fox hears the rabbit scream, he comes a-running. but not to help. when you hear jack scream, why will you come running?”

chiyoh: “you have a taste for it now.”will: “for what?”chiyoh: “harm.”will: “do you?”chiyoh: “i was violent when it was the right thing to do. but i think you like it. […] if you don’t kill him, you’re afraid you’re going to become him.”will: “yes.”

freddie: “i’ve interviewed enough serial killers to know one when i see one. […] a very specific brand of hostility. i see it every time i look at will graham.” 

gray: “there is no god.”hannibal: “well, not with that attitude.” 

hannibal: “hello! i love your work.” (YOU NEED CONTEXT FOR THIS ONE BUT I LOVE IT)

guest: “it smells divine!”hannibal: “it is! i say that without ego. i don’t require conventional reinforcement.” 

hannibal: “that may have been impulsive.”

hannibal: “a paradox.”alana: “freddie lounds thinks the two of you are a paradox. she sees something no one else sees.”will: “and what’s that?”alana: “that neither of you is the killer she’s writing about… but together you might be.” 

will: “i’d pack my bags if i were you, bedelia. meat’s back on the menu. […] ready or not, here he comes.” 

freddie: “what will understands is that if you can’t beat hannibal lecter… join him.” 

hannibal: “what’s the meat? veal? pork?”will: “she was a slim and delicate pig.”hannibal: “i’ll make you lomo soltado. we’ll make it together. …you slice the ginger.” […]hannibal: “this meat is not pork.”will: “it’s long pig.” (RIDICULOUS. now they’re both making puns while eating people)

will: “is hannibal in love with me?”bedelia: “could he daily feel a stab of hunger for you and find nourishment at the very sight of you? yes. but do you ache for him?”